September 10, 2024 • 40 mins
The conversation explores the importance of friendships and the shifts that can occur within them. Minaa B discusses the concept of growing together in friendships and the need for new language and tools to navigate these relationships. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing the spectrum of friendships and understanding that some friendships may be seasonal or evolve into acquaintanceships. Minaa B also addresses signs of struggling friendships, the role of reciprocity, and the need for honest communication and accountability. The conversation highlights the need to grieve and honor the shifts and endings that can occur in friendships. In this conversation, Dr. Raquel Martin and Minaa B discuss the complexities of friendships and offer insights on how to navigate them. They emphasize the importance of doing internal work and being reflective in order to maintain healthy friendships. They also discuss the need for boundaries and discernment when receiving feedback from friends. The conversation highlights the significance of communication, active listening, and understanding each other's needs. They also touch on the topics of grief, forgiveness, and the role of therapy in supporting friendships.
Takeaways
- Friendships can evolve and shift over time, and it's important to recognize and honor these changes.
- Understanding the spectrum of friendships helps in managing expectations and discerning the role of each person in your life.
- Reciprocity and honest communication are key in maintaining healthy friendships.
- Grieving the shifts and endings in friendships is a normal and necessary part of the process.
- Being open to feedback and self-reflection is crucial for personal growth within friendships. Doing internal work and being reflective is crucial for maintaining healthy friendships.
Bio
Minaa B.® MSW, LMSW, is a licensed social worker, mental health educator, and author of "Owning Our Struggles." With a background in psychotherapy specializing in anxiety, depression, and trauma, she has worked extensively in early childhood programs, private practice, and community mental health settings following her graduate studies at New York University.
As the founder of Minaa B. Consulting and a wellness coach, Minaa focuses on helping organizations cultivate psychological safety. She passionately explores the intersection of mental health and social justice, guiding individuals to build self-efficacy and resilience through community care. Her approach highlights the transformative power of relationships in both personal growth and societal change.
Minaa's expertise has garnered recognition from prominent media outlets such as Red Table Talk, Peace of Mind With Taraji, Today.com, BBC, Oprah Daily, and more. She contributes to the Mental Health Advisory Committee at Wondermind, co-founded by Selena Gomez, and serves as a relationship expert for eharmony. Minaa also hosts the enlightening podcast "Mindful With Minaa."
Minaa B. continues to shape the landscape of mental health and wellness from her base in New York City, where she resides and continues her impactful work.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Raquel Martin (00:00):
Steve, Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind
your mental just a reminder thatthis podcast is not meant to be
a substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
professional. I know they arehard to find, and I get that I
have a bunch of resources on mywebsite if you need them, but I
am not your clinician. I am apsychologist, but I am not your
(00:21):
psychologist. So if you need anyspecific help, please look for
the help of a licensed mentalhealth professional. Learn all
you can learn from the podcast.Enjoy the episode. Alright,
everyone. So today we are joinedwith Mina B. Mina is a social
worker. She is also an author ofowning your struggles, which
shares therapeutic tools, clientstories, actionable insights,
(00:42):
which you know I'm all about,the actionable insights to help
you on your healing journey, aswell as reflections from her
personal experience. She is alsoa mental health educator and
podcast host of the show mindfulwith Mina, where which is
dedicated to helping individualslive with intention and develop
healthy relationships withthemselves and others.
Basically, Mina teaches peoplehow to cultivate self efficacy
(01:04):
and build community. Welcome tothe show.
Unknown (01:07):
Hi. Dr Martin, thank you. Hello.
Dr. Raquel Martin (01:10):
Of course I was talking we're thinking about
friendships a lot lately,because, you know, as things
change over time, relationshipscan change and they can change
within the aspect of having moresupport, or you can find that
things aren't fitting the waythat you wanted them to, and
things of that nature. And Ithought you would be perfect for
this conversation, because inyour book, you discussed the
(01:31):
importance of finding ourvillage. So can you share how
through your personalexperiences or professional
observations, how has thatshaped your understanding of the
role of friendships in the blackcommunity in particular.
Unknown (01:45):
Really good question. I think, to use my own personal
experiences, I will say it'svery much enmeshed with my
professional experiences aswell. But as an adult black
woman, I have a lot of corefriends that I've known since I
was a child, and I think that isa big deal to be 34 years old
(02:06):
and my village are the peoplewho pretty much have been with
me from childhood and beyond,you know, in early adulthood and
beyond, and so I have been ableto witness and experience the
shifts that take place infriendships and the importance
of learning how to grow togetherwith people, and this is a big
part of what I feel when itcomes to friendships, is that
(02:30):
the concept of growing togetheris generally attached to
romantic relationships, andpeople generally are not given
the language or the tools thatThey need to know how to grow
together in friendships, we willhear the importance of two
partners learning how to cometogether, two partners learning
how to compromise with oneanother and be flexible with one
(02:51):
another, two partners who haveto do the work of having open
communication, engaging inhonesty. If there is a rupture
in that relationship, you go tocouples therapy, you do all of
the supportive work to try toheal the rupture. But then when
it's comes, when it comes tofriendships, it's generally in a
societal level, it's like, well,you know, if you're not getting
(03:13):
along anymore, I guess thefriendships over, you know, and
want to bring forth new languageto what it looks like to
actually grow together with yourcommunity. And in my book, I
talk about how friendship fallson the spectrum, and recognizing
that there are going to bepeople in your life who their
role is simply to be anacquaintance. It is not for them
(03:35):
to evolve into being your BFF.Their role simply is to just be
this person in a particularseason of your life, but then
there is also going to be thatperson who does evolve into a
close friend. And so how do welearn to exist on that spectrum,
so that we can allow people tobe what they can be to us, and
(03:56):
also use discernment to say,well, maybe this friendship was
seasonal. Maybe this friendshipwas for a particular reason, and
we have evolved from oneanother. We've outgrown one
another. That doesn't have to beanimosity or tension. We can
honor that we had maybe fivebeautiful years, 10 beautiful
years, even 20 beautiful years.But it's over now, you know, and
(04:20):
it was important, and it wassomething that was valuable, and
it can still hold place intoyour life until it's time for
you to move on. And so I reallyjust want people to be able to
broaden how they seefriendships. But also, most
importantly, what does it looklike to fight for your
friendship? What does it looklike to evolve in friendships,
and what does it look like togrow the same way we use that
(04:42):
language in romanticrelationships as well. Hey,
everyone,
Dr. Raquel Martin (04:45):
just a reminder that mind, your mental
is not just a podcast. It isalso a amazing community. If I
do say so myself, it'sphenomenal. I mean, you get more
access to me. What more couldyou want in this life? So. So if
you want to join the community,if you're not already on the
community, go to my socialmedia. My social media is the
same Raquel Martin, PhD, and DMme the word community, so you
(05:10):
can get details on joining thisamazing, flipping community. You
get more access to me. Y'alllike, I'm a delight. All right.
All right. Hope to see youthere. What do you see as some
common signs, like, how, if youhad, like, a patient, or you
were you doing consulting, oreven just the aspect of
educating people, it's tough,because you have so you do so
(05:31):
many things, so, like, it'slike, and if you do it this way,
and if you do it this way, like,so in all of these realms, what
are some signs that you wouldsee like, if the person was
sitting across from you and belike, it sounds to me like
you're struggling with, you'retrying to put someone that's an
acquaintance into the BFF or itsounds like you're struggling
(05:53):
with, it seems like you thisfriendship has evolved into a
space where you guys aren't aspresent with each other like you
used to BFF BFFs, but now itseems like you guys have
transitioned to, or evolved tolike the aspect of
acquaintanceships, and that'sokay. How would you be able to
like they were talking to you?And you'd be like, I think I see
(06:13):
what the issue is. Yeah,
Unknown (06:15):
that's a really good question. I think the first
thing that generally comes up isthere is a shift in
expectations. And so some peoplewill say, you know, I have this
person that I met, this personin my life who I really like,
and I find that they're notshowing up for me in the way
that I want them to. And so I'llstart asking questions, well,
(06:37):
how are they showing up? Howfrequently are they showing up.
Have you communicated andexpressed your needs to this
person? Is there reciprocity inthis relationship? Are you
always giving and giving, or doyou find that there is a balance
here where you're receivingsomething but maybe you're not
receiving as much as you wouldlike to receive from this
person? Have you made bids forconnections? Are you waiting for
(07:01):
that person to just hit you upand text you and plan a date, or
are you communicating and makingit aware to making it aware to
this person that you haveparticular needs that you would
like for them to meet. And Ifind that when a client is able
to say, you know, I've donethese particular things, and
this is how this personresponds, my next question will
(07:23):
be is, well, what would it looklike for you to honor the
capacity that they have and whatthey're able to give you?
Because I don't hear someone whois being silent. I don't hear
someone who is being absent fromyour life, but I do hear that
maybe you're not having thefrequent Hangouts that you'd
like, you're not having thefrequent phone calls that you
(07:44):
would like. So it seems to me asif they're showing up in one
way, but your needs are lettingyou know that you still feel
empty and you're not feelingfulfilled by that particular
relationship. So is it possiblethat maybe this friendship is
more of an acquaintanceship, andyou have expectations of this
person that they're actuallytrying to convey to you. They
(08:05):
can't meet those expectationsfor you. So is it possible for
you to move forward in thisrelationship? Can you give them
an opportunity to show up howthey can be, or is it a sign to
you now that maybe you need tocontinue to do the work and
increase your circle ofparticipation, which basically
means, what are the communitiesand networks that you can
(08:27):
involve yourself in so that youcan meet an abundance of people
and find people who can fulfillcertain needs. So when it comes
to identifying who was anacquaintance and who is a close
friend, I think those are thecore things that I would
encourage someone to reflect onand think about, what am I
receiving in this relationshipand what is actually missing
(08:47):
now, if I'm not receivinganything at all, then I would
question if that's even afriendship, right? You know, I
think sometimes one of thethings that I hear people talk
about is they are very quick tolabel people as friends, and
I'll ask a lot of questions, sosuch as, how long have you known
(09:09):
this person? What are somethings you have in common? How
does this person make you feel?What do you enjoy about being
around this person? What aresome of the things you all talk
about? And then I'll hear theirmessages, and I'll hear their
statements, and I'll say, so isthis a friendship, or is this
just someone that you know?Right? Because what I'm hearing
(09:29):
you say is, this is yourcolleague, and when you go to
work, you really enjoy talkingto them. This is the person that
you maybe have lunch with. Butoutside of that, there really is
no connection. The relationshipis not flourishing outside of
the workplace, and so maybethey're simply just your
colleague, but you're lookingfor deeper friendship, and your
(09:51):
colleague isn't willing to giveit to you, or they're not ready
to give it to you. So what wouldit look like for you to take a
step back and honor the placethat the. Friendship is in which
is more of a colleague, peerrelationship versus this is a
friendship, because I think theword friend is used very loosely
in our culture, and even thoughwe have terms like colleagues,
(10:12):
acquaintance, we just gostraight to friendship. And when
you go straight to friendship,there are expectations attached
to that word. The expectationsis reciprocity. The expectations
is my emotional needs being met.The expectations is me being
able to rely on you in certainsituations. And I think when we
(10:35):
take a step back and broadenthat term to recognize no
friendship falls on a spectrum,you're now able to identify,
Okay, there are certain peoplein my life who they provide me
with respect, they provide mewith care, but they're not
necessarily a close friend,they're just an acquaintance, or
they're just a colleague, yeah,but I do want to answer the
(10:56):
other question that you had aswell, where I do find that there
are times where people are invery close relationships and
life happens. And I think thatthis is common. Kunal, I used to
work predominantly with women,and black women especially, and
so these are women who have hadfriendships like the way I just
shared for a very long time. Sowhen you've known someone, you
(11:19):
know them in one particular way,and now they're growing and
they're evolving. And there arelife transitions that are taking
place that you now have to bearwitness to. They may be getting
married, they may be expectingtheir first child. They may be
experiencing a great loss. Theymay have gotten promoted, and
(11:41):
now that promotion requires alot of their time. They may have
quit their job, and now they'rean entrepreneur, and they're
having this different level ofsuccess that they didn't realize
would take up so much of theirtime as well. There's a huge
shift that hits when we enteradulthood, and I think sometimes
it can be very hard to recognizethat there is a shift taking
(12:03):
place in this friendship, andyour friend is not going to have
the capacity to meet your needsthe way that they used to. Now
they have a kid. They can't situp all night talking to you on
the phone. Now they entered intoa relationship, and so they have
someone else that they have toprioritize. Now they have this
job that's demanding so much ofthem. They're so tired. Girl,
(12:24):
I'm sorry. I don't want to talkon the phone when my work shift
is over, yep, little things likethat, right? And that causes a
shift to where it helps usunderstand that there's love and
there's care in thisrelationship, but growing with
people requires us to recognizewhen we need to be flexible and
when we need to compromise inthose relationships. And what
(12:47):
does it look like to adjust ourexpectations to meet the needs
of our friends so thatfriendship can still grow, but
also it is okay to grieve theshift in your relationship as
well. What's hard is hard, andyou can give yourself permission
to feel what is hard.
Dr. Raquel Martin (13:06):
And I think part of that is also being
honest about the fact that thereis a shift right. Like I
recently went through a scenariowhere someone who I've been
close with, I would say they'rethe friend I've had the longest.
There were just very many shiftswithin the way we were
communicating with with eachother, and the way roles had
changed, right? And you have tobe honest about, yeah, stuff is
(13:28):
shifting. They went through verybig shifts in their life. And
I'm in a part where in mycareer, where I'm just like,
this is a career year. Like, Itold everyone, this is a career
year, okay, so, like, theoutings and stuff like that.
Like, I think that's amazing,but this is very much a year
where I'm really trying todedicate to a certain level of
growth so that we can moveforward. And you mentioned the
aspect of reciprocity andfriendships, and they have to be
(13:50):
give and take. I say, when itcomes to being a professor, when
it comes to so many roles, Ialways say it's easy to be bad
at stuff. It is like, it's easyto be it's easy to be a bad
friend. In my opinion, it's easyto for you know, like, to forget
to call to check in to askquestions after you're being
asked. It's easy to forget likesand dislikes. It's harder to
(14:13):
maintain like the same way I'mchecking in with what is my
food? Does my child like applesthis week? Oh, when's the last
time I checked in with my friendto see how that interview for
that promotion went. It's harderto remember, like, Okay, I went
to brunch. When's the last timeI saw so and so to ask if they
wanted to hang out, or when'sthe last time I asked if they
just wanted to watch TV and letthe TV watch us, and we just
(14:35):
drink some juice and just kickit, you know? Like, when's the
like, but it's easy to forgetthings like that, just like you
mentioned, because it isreciprocity. Therapy is the only
and this is the salience intherapy. In my opinion, there's
so many amazing things, but it'sthe relationship is not
reciprocal. You can ask me howI'm doing. That's what's up. You
don't have to, though, like, mywhole job is to collaborate with
you and help you meet what youwant to therapy is the only
(14:56):
advice relationship that if it'shealthy, you. It's not
reciprocal friendships, romanticrelationships, these are
reciprocal like it has to begive and take, because honestly,
the lack of reciprocity istypically a sign for me, with a
patient that I'm like, thisisn't healthy. It's not healthy
for you to only be giving, andit's not healthy for you to only
be taking, and I think it's hardfor people to acknowledge that
(15:18):
shift, because, of course, Idon't think individuals talk
enough about you can grievedecisions that are good for you
too. You can grieve being like,okay, my expectations for you on
the friend scale are bigger thanwhat my expectations would be
for you on the acquaintancescale. And I think that's going
to be better for a relationshipthat also sucks and I'm also
(15:39):
upset about that, like I canacknowledge that, yeah, this is
a better fit for where you are,and it doesn't mean it's going
to be permanent. And I alsothink that's sad, because we,
you know, who talks about thatin life, about, yes, we talk
about marriage and kids, butthen you get to your wedding and
like, hey, you know what thatwhen I used to play mash and I
had all my bridesmaids, three ofthe people who I thought were
(16:00):
going to be my bridesmaidsaren't even here. Man, I'm doing
my baby shower invite list, andthe person who I thought would
be sitting right here planningwith me I haven't talked to in
years. And you know you'reyou're grieving a different
aspect, and it's okay toacknowledge that and mention
that they evolve. It doesn'tmean that they have to end they
could just evolve into somethingdifferent, and if anything,
(16:22):
that's healthier. But I don'tthink that gets talked about
enough.
Unknown (16:27):
It doesn't, and I always like to focus on it was
good until it wasn't goodanymore, or it worked until it
couldn't work anymore. Versusthe perception of this person
isn't here because of all ofthese terrible things, but it
was good until it wasn't goodanymore. And how can we honor
(16:48):
the space to just grieve thatthis friendship that we thought
was probably going to last alifetime, it didn't hit that
goal, but that doesn't take awayfrom the things that I gained
from that relationship, or thereare going to be times where you
do recognize that from the verybeginning, it was a toxic
(17:08):
relationship. And I think thatis something people that is okay
too.
Dr. Raquel Martin (17:12):
You got to be at a healthy space to recognize
what was recognize that exactly,progress Exactly. And
Unknown (17:20):
I talk about how that is something that a lot of
people mourn as well, becauseyou use you take a step back,
and you have this greaterawareness now where you're like,
wow. So this relationship reallywas just founded on trauma and
dysfunction and codependency,and I gave 10 years of myself to
that, and that can leavesomebody in a place of sadness
(17:42):
too and grieving too, becauseyou start to think about all the
things you lost, or all theopportunities that maybe you
didn't gain because you weretied to this particular person.
The same way we will also applythat to romantic relationships.
And so I think grieving is justa huge part of shifts and
(18:02):
relational dynamics, regardlessof what they are, regardless of
what causes the shift, but Idefinitely think that it's one
of those things that isn'ttalked about enough, and it's
not normalized enough. And I dowant to do the work of having
conversations like this. Youknow, I'm happy that we're able
to talk about it, because I dothink that friendships are very
(18:24):
beautiful connections that serveunder tremendous purpose to our
well being and our mentalhealth, and we're meant to have
connections and be a part ofcommunity. But I do think that
when you are a part of thesesystems, a big part of that is
giving space to allowing certainfriendships to be seasonal, but
(18:45):
then also allowing certainfriendships to let it run its
course. And if it's going tolast a lifetime, that is
beautiful, but there are alsogoing to be moments where it
doesn't, and even the ones thatdo last what might feel like a
lifetime, there are still goingto be shifts involved in that,
oh, yeah, you have to put inwork for it to be able to last a
lifetime. And I think that's oneof the things that I want people
(19:07):
to be able to hold on to whereit's like, if you want those
long term relationships that aregoing to flourish over time
again, as we're talking about,is it a reciprocal relationship?
Is a is it a relationship whereyou are communicating and
talking about your needs, ortalking about the shifts, or
just saying, You know what, Iwant to check in here. Am I
(19:29):
being a good friend to you? Iwant to check in here and say,
girl, you know what, I am. Sosorry. I completely forgot that
you got a promotion, and all ofthese new things are happening
for you and I have just beenlost in my own stuff. I can hold
myself accountable enough to bethat friend, to just come forth
and say that, right? And I thinkwhen we can hold ourselves
(19:51):
accountable, when we can bereflective, when we can be self
aware, when we can move ego outthe way, right, and just come to
the relationship. In ourfullness, in our full selves,
and say, I'm not perfect. So canyou make space for me to be
imperfect in this relationshipand call me out when you need
to? Yeah, right. Can we do thatin this friendship so that we
(20:13):
can grow together, and when weget to a place where we feel
like I've called you out enoughand I just don't think this is
going to work moving forward,then we also have to honor when
endings arise as well. Yeah, I
Dr. Raquel Martin (20:27):
say all the time my black love looks like
accountability, because I also,like, I don't need friends
that's just gonna like, big meup during the peaks of life. I
need you to tell me what mybreath stink too. Like, I don't
need you don't only let me know,like, oh, girl, you look
amazing. I need you to tell me.It's also a deodorant thing, you
know. Like, I mean, both, like,you need to, yeah, listen, y'all
(20:51):
need to get you friends willtell you when your breasts
think, Okay, let you need to letme know, okay, because it tastes
fine to me, you know. Like, so Idid not know. Like, I need
somebody like that. I mean,like, don't be, don't be at me.
Don't be getting me played outhere. Like, you mean to tell me
I've been over here humming andhigh and all these people facing
my breath. Like, why I feelbetrayed? Like, oh, my
Unknown (21:16):
God. You know. You know what's interesting about that
too, though, that I have had towork through with clients. A lot
about is, Are you open tohearing the truth? Yeah. And it
takes a lot of self awarenessand reflection on your part to
be able to withstand the friendcoming to you to say, girl, I'm
(21:38):
sorry, but your breath iskicking
Dr. Raquel Martin (21:40):
like you must have had salmon and garlic and
onions, right? What? Right? Itsounds like it smells like it
was delicious, okay, but like, Ishouldn't be able to tell
Unknown (21:52):
yes. Like, I'm saying this out of love on stage. I
want you to do the things thatyou do, but you gotta stay right
here on your shirt and yourteeth. All this is happening,
and can you though, as thefriend on the receiving end, be
reflective enough to take it in,not listen to maybe the stories
that you're telling yourself,but also be able to use
(22:14):
discernment? Yeah. Who is thisperson to me? How long have they
known me? Do they care about me?What is the evidence to show who
they are in my life? Because Ithink another thing that I see
happening that I've had tocounsel women through, is I will
hear them saying they wanthonest conversation, but then
when they get it, it's like myfriend is being a hater, yo. And
(22:36):
it's like, jealous of me. Were
Dr. Raquel Martin (22:38):
they a hater before? Are
Unknown (22:39):
they right? Right. Why can we pause here and take a
moment to really step back andhear what's being said? Let's
dissect this friendship reallyquickly. So this friend has
shown up for you, how many waysthey've supported you, how many
ways they've done all of thesethings for you, but they're
(22:59):
telling you something you don'tlike, something that you're not
ready to hear. And now, all of asudden, they've become your
biggest enemy, a success. Now,all of a sudden they're jealous
of you. Like, how do we No, allof a sudden they're the biggest
hater in your life. How about wejust take a step back from that
and listen to some of thedistorted thinking taking place.
(23:22):
Because maybe, you know, anotherthing that can come up is one,
we have all of these selfdeprecating narratives about
ourselves in certain situations,and so the moment we hear any
form of critique or negativefeedback, we project the
negative ideologies we'reholding about ourselves. And so
if I'm feeling doubt the momentmy friend comes to me to tell me
(23:43):
the truth, Oh no, she's a hater.She's a hater. But really what
I'm trying to say is I don'tfeel confident in what I'm
doing, yeah, and it made me feelreally terrible to even hear my
friend say, girl, I'm not evenconfident in what you do, and
that's what you need. But Iain't want her to tell me that,
but you exactly that is what youneeded. And there's a difference
(24:05):
between you not being ready tohear the truth and your friend
being a difficult person or ahater by telling you the truth.
And I think those are the thingsthat gets friendships really
distorted, because sometimespeople are not doing the
internal work, to be able to bereflective enough to say what is
actually happening here andusing discernment. Because if I
(24:28):
just met you last week and youwant to step into my life and
tell me, Nina, these are myopinions about you. I'm going to
be honest. I'm going to take itwith a grain of salt, because
I'm going to be like sis, who
Dr. Raquel Martin (24:38):
are you? Yeah, that's the thing. It's the
level of relationship. It's thelevel of relationship a lot of
times. And that's what honestlyhelps me on social media,
because when people say crazystuff, it's just, I'm just like,
diatribe 725,
Unknown (24:52):
who the freak is this? I don't know. You comment
Dr. Raquel Martin (24:54):
on my page, honey. I'm not coming on yours.
I don't even know who you are.Versus, if it was my friend, one
of my friends, I would be like.Like, Oh, I need to check that,
because they know me and theyknow your that was not that was
super inappropriate. Like, No,exactly No, it's gonna be you.
Unknown (25:13):
That's when I'm like, alright, you know what? She's
right. My friend is right. Butsince the I just met last week,
mind your business, right? Like,I
Dr. Raquel Martin (25:21):
don't know me.
Unknown (25:23):
Mind your business.
Dr. Raquel Martin (25:25):
People think that my normal face is me being
mad, and I'm like, Oh, I'msorry. I just scheduled like,
four doctor's appointments in myhead, figured out what the meal
prepper is going to be, andfigured out when I get to the
gym. I'm not even here. Okay? Iam not physical. I'm physically
here, but running a wholehousehold, honey. I'm not
physical, no. And I think, youknow, a lot of people ask that
(25:45):
whole like of friends, do youwant support or solutions? But I
was recently talking to apatient, I was like, you know, I
think there should be a thirdoption. I think there should be
a silence option. I don't thinkit should just be support or
solutions. I think it should be,do you need support or
solutions, or do you needsilence and you need to be
within yourself to know that.And silence doesn't mean like, I
(26:06):
can't say anything, butsometimes you really do just
need people to sit there withyou. Like, sometimes you really
do need that aspect. And when itcomes to support, I think there,
sometimes it gets in the way,and people will be like, well, I
can't I want to support you, andI don't agree with that. And
sometimes people support isreally only I just need you to
(26:26):
agree, and it's just like, Ohno, that's silence. You want
silence. You want silence. Andif that's what you want, Lay it
on me. But if you want supportis give and take, right? Like
someone just be like, I totallyunderstand where you came from
with that. I can also understandtheir perception, and they're
just from hearing it, and I'mnot sure if you have done that.
So like, the same way, my myblack love is accountability. My
(26:47):
the accountability is like,okay, so I heard you, and I
think that's amazing. I thinkyou didn't hear part of what
they said, though. Have youconsidered that? Or if you just
acknowledge that you want signand it's okay to say you want
silence, there's sometimes whatI literally be like, Yo, I acted
a a plum fool with my husband.But all I need you to do is say,
How dare he not agree witheverything you say and buy you a
(27:10):
new house just because you askedfor it on a Tuesday. That's what
I need. I need the silence,alright. I don't need you to be
reasonable about he's a goodman. I don't care. As a friend,
you need to act like this issomebody we just met off the
street, not somebody I've beenwith for 14 years. And y'all
need to be okay, you know, likethis ain't I was gonna be all
the time, but like, I'm in amode. I will literally say I'm
(27:33):
in a mood of being unreasonable,yeah?
Unknown (27:36):
And I appreciate that. And I'll add to that too. When
it's like asking that personwhat they need, I also say it's
important to communicate whatyou can give Yes, because there
are also times in a friendshipwhere you will hear that friend
complain about the same thingover and over and over again,
(28:00):
and I always have to remindpeople to not take that
personally, because I think whatends up happening is you put
yourself in a predicament whereyou feel like you have to rescue
or save and so because they keepcoming to you with all of this
stuff, you start to get upsetbecause they're not listening to
you. And you have to rememberyour friend is an adult. Your
friend can make whatever choicesthat they can make, but it is
also okay to be honest aboutwhere you are and what your
(28:23):
capacity is and your energeticbandwidth, to say it's okay to
come with come to me and sharethis story with me, but I'm
gonna be honest with you rightnow, all I can do is listen,
yeah, right now I may not havethe capacity to give You
feedback or advice. And so Ialso tell people to put yourself
(28:44):
in that predicament too, whereit's like, it's important to
ask, because I think that askingpiece generally gets placed on a
pedestal of like, ask yourfriend what they need, and ask
your friend what kind of supportthat they want from you, and ask
them if they want feedback rightnow. But I also want people to
put emphasis on being honestabout what they can give. And
there are just going to be timeswhere you want to talk to me,
(29:06):
and all I can do is actuallylisten, right? And that's really
all I can give you in themoment, because maybe it's my
stuff going on that I have somany things happening that I
don't want to neglect you, but Iwant to hear what's going on for
you, but I just know that Idon't have the ability right now
to formulate an opinion. I don'thave the ability right now to
(29:26):
dissect what's happening foryou. I may not have the ability
to really sit in the thicknessof it and decipher what you can
do or provide you with certainskills and support supportive
tools, but right now, maybe allI can do is listen. And are you
okay with that? Yeah. Are youokay with knowing that right
now, all I can do is be anactive listener to you. So I
(29:49):
think that those are some thingsthat I really encourage people
to utilize in their friendshipsas well, because I think it's a
game changer. And I think thatis something that. Allows us to
grow together when we canrespect the needs and the
capacities of our friends aswell, because we're always
shifting and transforming. Yeah,and it doesn't have to be a big
(30:10):
life change. There could beminor things happening in
someone's life that you don'trealize it's leaving a really
big impact on them. So don'talso assume that my friend is
okay, because there's nothingmajor happening. They didn't
have a baby, they didn't getmarried, they didn't get a job
promotion, but they might beactually going through something
that to them the way it'simpacting them emotionally, it
(30:32):
is a huge deal. And so how canyou show up for them
Dr. Raquel Martin (30:36):
without labeling and deciding and
pulling out your measuring stickhow much compassion they
deserve. Because in your world,it's not that big of a deal, but
in their world it is, becauseit's all relative. And I think
when I was at Hopkins, we themajority of my training is in
trauma, and of course, that'slike incredibly difficult space.
(30:56):
And one thing that we used tosay to each other when we were
going to discuss cases when itwasn't like in case and when it
wasn't in rounds, we would belike, is it okay if I slime all
over you and the sliming allover you? Meant like, I got
something heavy, and like, areyou in a place to be receptive
to the heavy? Right? Because ourcases were incredibly intense,
(31:18):
and if you're going after, ifwe've had back to back sessions
of, you know, dealing withtrauma narratives, and then
someone needs a minute toconsult with you on their case.
But it's like, A, this is aslime case. This isn't like, I
just need a resource. This ishow do I deal with, like, this
heavy stuff. And we would askthat beforehand, and if people
weren't receptive to it, it'sunderstood that, like, Okay,
(31:39):
I'll just check with someoneelse. But you were also giving
that level of disclaimer, right?Because I think people you need
to also acknowledge, like ithurts to see your friend hurt,
right? I did this skit aboutwhat, what not to say to people
when they're in a negativethought spiral, when they're
just like, Oh, I think you'reoverthinking it, and the other
person is just like, Yeah, I'moverthinking it. You think? I
don't know. I'm overthinking it.I'm I'm the one doing it. I'm
(32:02):
aware that it's happening. But Isay that in addition to
providing options about like,what can be helpful, you also
need to realize, are you in aplace where you can be present
for that negative thoughts?Part? Because the thing that
happens is maybe you're watchingthem say these bad things
themselves, and you're trying tohelp, and they're not receptive
to it, and it overwhelms you tobe present for that. Like, okay,
(32:26):
so this is also bringing up,like, am I Are they
overthinking, or am I notthinking enough? You know? Like,
you also need to realize that,like, are you in a space to be
present and it's okay to statelike, Hey, I'm so sorry. I have
to be honest, when you gothrough these things and I don't
know how to help, or I providethese solutions, and they're
still not helpful. I actuallyget overwhelmed, and that causes
(32:46):
me to say stupid stuff, like,you may be overthinking it,
because, like, they know theyoverthink, and they do this for
a living. They know it, like,it's not new to them, right? But
you have to be wherewithal to belike, Oh my goodness. Like, I'm
now I'm getting overwhelmed, andI can't be helpful. You have to
feel what's going on in yourbody, and being like, now you're
trying to jut in because youcan't, and sometimes there is no
(33:07):
solution, right? Like, sometimesyou do have to just sit with it.
Sometimes it is just like, thisis a sucky feeling, and I don't
want to reside here, and I'm notgoing to stay here forever, but
this is where I'm at now. So I'mgrieving right now, or I don't
want to be angry right now.However, I can't acknowledge
that anger is very real in thismoment, and I'm going to be
angry for this moment. Sometimesit's hard to watch that, and
(33:27):
that's sometimes why individualsprovide you guys, some people
write invalidating statementsbecause it's just like, I want
to help. All I know how to do ishelp. You have to acknowledge
that you just you possibly maynot be able to exactly like
That's okay, and it's lesshelpful to say something like
that, right? Like, you also haveto realize, like, what comes out
for you when your friends aregoing through these difficult
times, when they'reoverthinking, when they're
(33:48):
dealing with grief. When I wasyounger, I sucked at managing
grief with people so just bad.Like, I would just be like,
because there is no solution.Like, I used to be very much
solution oriented, and there isno solution. I want to make you
feel better and you're upset,and then I would just come out
with, like, with, like, I didn'tknow what to do, because there
is no solution. And I thinkthat's what a lot of people
(34:09):
struggle with. They're justlike, Well, how do I help? What
if I told you you couldn't Ijust have to go through this. I
just have to be sad or angry orfrustrated. This is just where
I'm at. And you mean, I have towatch you. I can't fix it. No,
you can't fix it. Like, Iappreciate you wanting to, but
no, I'm gonna be sad for aminute. Same thing with
apologies. You can apologize tosomeone or harm that was caused,
(34:30):
and you have to accept that,like, that relationship may
change forever, and they may notaccept it. And even though
you've done the healing and yourealize that you need to, you
know you have remorse, they maybe like, I appreciate that. I
also don't want to, I don't wantto, I don't want to continue on
with this
Unknown (34:44):
relationship. Yes, that is a big one all the time, but I
apologize. I said I was sorry. Itried to make up for it, and
it's like you don't get todictate somebody's healing
journey. You made the decisionregardless of. What your
intention was, your choices madean impact on someone else, and
(35:05):
so they get to choose how theywant to move forward in this
relationship with you, and youdon't get to dictate what steps
they're supposed to take torepair the relationship when
you're the one who caused theharm in the first place. And I
think that's a big thing thathappens in friendship rifts as
well, where people will say,Well, I see they have adjusted
(35:25):
the degree of closeness, and sohow can you honor the fact that
you're not as close as you usedto be? I don't hear them
terminating the friendship, butI do hear that maybe it's going
to take some time for them tobuild trust. It's going to take
some time for them to feel safeenough to be vulnerable around
you, it's going to take sometime for them to manage the
(35:45):
discomfort and manage what'scoming up for them. But
forgiveness doesn't mean thatthey have to reconcile
immediately. It also doesn'tmean that they have to give you
what you want, because nowyou're entering a zone of
entitlement by saying as long asI say sorry, this is what I
expect, and that's not howthings work. So now you have to
check yourself to say, am Ibeing entitled here? Do I think
(36:08):
because I said I'm sorry, thatgives me an opportunity to just
get back into something withouthaving to deal with the
repercussions of it? And sothose are the things too, that I
think in friendships, there's alot of ego work that you have to
tend to. You have to listen tothose cognitive distortions,
which are those negative storiesthat we tell ourselves when
(36:29):
we're jumping to conclusions andwe're making assumptions because
we're not activelycommunicating. These are the
things that people have to bringinto their friendships. And so I
just really encourage people tobe doing that internal work. And
also, if you are in therapy, Iknow we're not in a place yet in
(36:49):
our culture where we arepromoting friendship therapy,
but it's also okay to go to yourtherapist and talk about your
friendship. Yeah, it is alsookay to use that therapeutic
space to say, You know what, myfriend really pissed me off, and
I got to talk to somebody aboutit. It is not gossiping, it is
not tearing them down. You needto have healthy spaces to be
(37:13):
able to vent about your friends.Your friends are imperfect
people. They're going to makemistakes, and you need to use
discernment and wisdom toidentify who are the safe people
that I can go with thisinformation, that I know that
they're going to be a safecontainer to help me process
(37:34):
what I'm going through with thisindividual. If you know you're
going to go to person A andthey'd be like, Oh, girl, I told
you she was messy, and this thatand you don't need to be her
friend, I would say that'sprobably not the person that you
should go to, because they'renot offering you insight into
your own behavior. They probablyhave their own agenda, because
maybe they feel a particular wayabout this person. So now you're
(37:56):
setting them off because they'relike, Oh, I was waiting for
something to happen so that Icould complain about this
person, because I don't want youto be her friend, right? And so
also is this person digging formore information. Now you feel
like you're gossiping and you'retalking about things that aren't
even relevant to the issue athand. And I think because we
have failed for some people tofind those healthy, supportive
(38:18):
networks, sometimes people keepthings bottled in that's
frustrating them about theirfriends because they don't know
where to turn to vent abouttheir friends. I believe in
venting about your friends thesame way we will vent about our
partners. It is okay to ventabout your friend, but you need
to be venting to the rightperson. Vent to someone who can
(38:39):
check you if it's necessary,vent to someone who provides a
psychological safe space for youto process. Vent to someone who
listens, but also usediscernment to recognize, if I
vent in this room, is it goingto be a healthy container I
don't have to worry about nextweek when we're at brunch.
Everybody heard the story,right? Because that's a problem
(39:00):
that's not a safe container. SoI encourage people to also just
be thinking about if you eat,because if you don't have a
therapist, who can you turn toin your life, that you can say
this person is trustworthy,safe, and I can use the sermon
and recognize I know I can sharethis particular issue with this
person, because they're going togive me the feedback that I
(39:20):
need, and they're going to helpme manage this situation. And I
think when we also have thosetools, we will also be able to
see ourselves seeing a shift inour relationships and our
friendships, that is amazing. SoMina. B,
Dr. Raquel Martin (39:33):
thank you so much for coming on the show. Let
everybody know where they canfind you. One you already have
your podcast mindful with Mina.You also have your book, owning
Is it your struggles as well,owning our owning our struggles,
because it's community focused.Good job. I get that. I like I
see what you did there. Allright, tell everybody else
Unknown (39:52):
where they can find you. Well, you all can find me
on social media. My social mediahandle is Mina, underscore B on.
Instagram, but you can just typein Mina B on Facebook, LinkedIn
and Instagram, as well asthreads and as Dr Martin shared,
I have a podcast mindful withNina, and then you can also
subscribe to my substack mindfulwith Nina as well, where I share
(40:13):
a weekly newsletter. So thankyou so much, Dr Martin for
having me. Of course, thank
Dr. Raquel Martin (40:18):
you. You.
Steve, Hello everyone, and welcome to Mind
your mental just a reminder thatthis podcast is not meant to be
a substitute for a relationshipwith a licensed mental health
professional. I know they arehard to find, and I get that I
have a bunch of resources on mywebsite if you need them, but I
am not your clinician. I am apsychologist, but I am not your
(00:21):
psychologist. So if you need anyspecific help, please look for
the help of a licensed mentalhealth professional. Learn all
you can learn from the podcast.Enjoy the episode. Alright,
everyone. So today we are joinedwith Mina B. Mina is a social
worker. She is also an author ofowning your struggles, which
shares therapeutic tools, clientstories, actionable insights,
(00:42):
which you know I'm all about,the actionable insights to help
you on your healing journey, aswell as reflections from her
personal experience. She is alsoa mental health educator and
podcast host of the show mindfulwith Mina, where which is
dedicated to helping individualslive with intention and develop
healthy relationships withthemselves and others.
Basically, Mina teaches peoplehow to cultivate self efficacy
(01:04):
and build community. Welcome tothe show.
Unknown (01:07):
Hi. Dr Martin, thank you. Hello.
Dr. Raquel Martin (01:10):
Of course I was talking we're thinking about
friendships a lot lately,because, you know, as things
change over time, relationshipscan change and they can change
within the aspect of having moresupport, or you can find that
things aren't fitting the waythat you wanted them to, and
things of that nature. And Ithought you would be perfect for
this conversation, because inyour book, you discussed the
(01:31):
importance of finding ourvillage. So can you share how
through your personalexperiences or professional
observations, how has thatshaped your understanding of the
role of friendships in the blackcommunity in particular.
Unknown (01:45):
Really good question. I think, to use my own personal
experiences, I will say it'svery much enmeshed with my
professional experiences aswell. But as an adult black
woman, I have a lot of corefriends that I've known since I
was a child, and I think that isa big deal to be 34 years old
(02:06):
and my village are the peoplewho pretty much have been with
me from childhood and beyond,you know, in early adulthood and
beyond, and so I have been ableto witness and experience the
shifts that take place infriendships and the importance
of learning how to grow togetherwith people, and this is a big
part of what I feel when itcomes to friendships, is that
(02:30):
the concept of growing togetheris generally attached to
romantic relationships, andpeople generally are not given
the language or the tools thatThey need to know how to grow
together in friendships, we willhear the importance of two
partners learning how to cometogether, two partners learning
how to compromise with oneanother and be flexible with one
(02:51):
another, two partners who haveto do the work of having open
communication, engaging inhonesty. If there is a rupture
in that relationship, you go tocouples therapy, you do all of
the supportive work to try toheal the rupture. But then when
it's comes, when it comes tofriendships, it's generally in a
societal level, it's like, well,you know, if you're not getting
(03:13):
along anymore, I guess thefriendships over, you know, and
want to bring forth new languageto what it looks like to
actually grow together with yourcommunity. And in my book, I
talk about how friendship fallson the spectrum, and recognizing
that there are going to bepeople in your life who their
role is simply to be anacquaintance. It is not for them
(03:35):
to evolve into being your BFF.Their role simply is to just be
this person in a particularseason of your life, but then
there is also going to be thatperson who does evolve into a
close friend. And so how do welearn to exist on that spectrum,
so that we can allow people tobe what they can be to us, and
(03:56):
also use discernment to say,well, maybe this friendship was
seasonal. Maybe this friendshipwas for a particular reason, and
we have evolved from oneanother. We've outgrown one
another. That doesn't have to beanimosity or tension. We can
honor that we had maybe fivebeautiful years, 10 beautiful
years, even 20 beautiful years.But it's over now, you know, and
(04:20):
it was important, and it wassomething that was valuable, and
it can still hold place intoyour life until it's time for
you to move on. And so I reallyjust want people to be able to
broaden how they seefriendships. But also, most
importantly, what does it looklike to fight for your
friendship? What does it looklike to evolve in friendships,
and what does it look like togrow the same way we use that
(04:42):
language in romanticrelationships as well. Hey,
everyone,
Dr. Raquel Martin (04:45):
just a reminder that mind, your mental
is not just a podcast. It isalso a amazing community. If I
do say so myself, it'sphenomenal. I mean, you get more
access to me. What more couldyou want in this life? So. So if
you want to join the community,if you're not already on the
community, go to my socialmedia. My social media is the
same Raquel Martin, PhD, and DMme the word community, so you
(05:10):
can get details on joining thisamazing, flipping community. You
get more access to me. Y'alllike, I'm a delight. All right.
All right. Hope to see youthere. What do you see as some
common signs, like, how, if youhad, like, a patient, or you
were you doing consulting, oreven just the aspect of
educating people, it's tough,because you have so you do so
(05:31):
many things, so, like, it'slike, and if you do it this way,
and if you do it this way, like,so in all of these realms, what
are some signs that you wouldsee like, if the person was
sitting across from you and belike, it sounds to me like
you're struggling with, you'retrying to put someone that's an
acquaintance into the BFF or itsounds like you're struggling
(05:53):
with, it seems like you thisfriendship has evolved into a
space where you guys aren't aspresent with each other like you
used to BFF BFFs, but now itseems like you guys have
transitioned to, or evolved tolike the aspect of
acquaintanceships, and that'sokay. How would you be able to
like they were talking to you?And you'd be like, I think I see
(06:13):
what the issue is. Yeah,
Unknown (06:15):
that's a really good question. I think the first
thing that generally comes up isthere is a shift in
expectations. And so some peoplewill say, you know, I have this
person that I met, this personin my life who I really like,
and I find that they're notshowing up for me in the way
that I want them to. And so I'llstart asking questions, well,
(06:37):
how are they showing up? Howfrequently are they showing up.
Have you communicated andexpressed your needs to this
person? Is there reciprocity inthis relationship? Are you
always giving and giving, or doyou find that there is a balance
here where you're receivingsomething but maybe you're not
receiving as much as you wouldlike to receive from this
person? Have you made bids forconnections? Are you waiting for
(07:01):
that person to just hit you upand text you and plan a date, or
are you communicating and makingit aware to making it aware to
this person that you haveparticular needs that you would
like for them to meet. And Ifind that when a client is able
to say, you know, I've donethese particular things, and
this is how this personresponds, my next question will
(07:23):
be is, well, what would it looklike for you to honor the
capacity that they have and whatthey're able to give you?
Because I don't hear someone whois being silent. I don't hear
someone who is being absent fromyour life, but I do hear that
maybe you're not having thefrequent Hangouts that you'd
like, you're not having thefrequent phone calls that you
(07:44):
would like. So it seems to me asif they're showing up in one
way, but your needs are lettingyou know that you still feel
empty and you're not feelingfulfilled by that particular
relationship. So is it possiblethat maybe this friendship is
more of an acquaintanceship, andyou have expectations of this
person that they're actuallytrying to convey to you. They
(08:05):
can't meet those expectationsfor you. So is it possible for
you to move forward in thisrelationship? Can you give them
an opportunity to show up howthey can be, or is it a sign to
you now that maybe you need tocontinue to do the work and
increase your circle ofparticipation, which basically
means, what are the communitiesand networks that you can
(08:27):
involve yourself in so that youcan meet an abundance of people
and find people who can fulfillcertain needs. So when it comes
to identifying who was anacquaintance and who is a close
friend, I think those are thecore things that I would
encourage someone to reflect onand think about, what am I
receiving in this relationshipand what is actually missing
(08:47):
now, if I'm not receivinganything at all, then I would
question if that's even afriendship, right? You know, I
think sometimes one of thethings that I hear people talk
about is they are very quick tolabel people as friends, and
I'll ask a lot of questions, sosuch as, how long have you known
(09:09):
this person? What are somethings you have in common? How
does this person make you feel?What do you enjoy about being
around this person? What aresome of the things you all talk
about? And then I'll hear theirmessages, and I'll hear their
statements, and I'll say, so isthis a friendship, or is this
just someone that you know?Right? Because what I'm hearing
(09:29):
you say is, this is yourcolleague, and when you go to
work, you really enjoy talkingto them. This is the person that
you maybe have lunch with. Butoutside of that, there really is
no connection. The relationshipis not flourishing outside of
the workplace, and so maybethey're simply just your
colleague, but you're lookingfor deeper friendship, and your
(09:51):
colleague isn't willing to giveit to you, or they're not ready
to give it to you. So what wouldit look like for you to take a
step back and honor the placethat the. Friendship is in which
is more of a colleague, peerrelationship versus this is a
friendship, because I think theword friend is used very loosely
in our culture, and even thoughwe have terms like colleagues,
(10:12):
acquaintance, we just gostraight to friendship. And when
you go straight to friendship,there are expectations attached
to that word. The expectationsis reciprocity. The expectations
is my emotional needs being met.The expectations is me being
able to rely on you in certainsituations. And I think when we
(10:35):
take a step back and broadenthat term to recognize no
friendship falls on a spectrum,you're now able to identify,
Okay, there are certain peoplein my life who they provide me
with respect, they provide mewith care, but they're not
necessarily a close friend,they're just an acquaintance, or
they're just a colleague, yeah,but I do want to answer the
(10:56):
other question that you had aswell, where I do find that there
are times where people are invery close relationships and
life happens. And I think thatthis is common. Kunal, I used to
work predominantly with women,and black women especially, and
so these are women who have hadfriendships like the way I just
shared for a very long time. Sowhen you've known someone, you
(11:19):
know them in one particular way,and now they're growing and
they're evolving. And there arelife transitions that are taking
place that you now have to bearwitness to. They may be getting
married, they may be expectingtheir first child. They may be
experiencing a great loss. Theymay have gotten promoted, and
(11:41):
now that promotion requires alot of their time. They may have
quit their job, and now they'rean entrepreneur, and they're
having this different level ofsuccess that they didn't realize
would take up so much of theirtime as well. There's a huge
shift that hits when we enteradulthood, and I think sometimes
it can be very hard to recognizethat there is a shift taking
(12:03):
place in this friendship, andyour friend is not going to have
the capacity to meet your needsthe way that they used to. Now
they have a kid. They can't situp all night talking to you on
the phone. Now they entered intoa relationship, and so they have
someone else that they have toprioritize. Now they have this
job that's demanding so much ofthem. They're so tired. Girl,
(12:24):
I'm sorry. I don't want to talkon the phone when my work shift
is over, yep, little things likethat, right? And that causes a
shift to where it helps usunderstand that there's love and
there's care in thisrelationship, but growing with
people requires us to recognizewhen we need to be flexible and
when we need to compromise inthose relationships. And what
(12:47):
does it look like to adjust ourexpectations to meet the needs
of our friends so thatfriendship can still grow, but
also it is okay to grieve theshift in your relationship as
well. What's hard is hard, andyou can give yourself permission
to feel what is hard.
Dr. Raquel Martin (13:06):
And I think part of that is also being
honest about the fact that thereis a shift right. Like I
recently went through a scenariowhere someone who I've been
close with, I would say they'rethe friend I've had the longest.
There were just very many shiftswithin the way we were
communicating with with eachother, and the way roles had
changed, right? And you have tobe honest about, yeah, stuff is
(13:28):
shifting. They went through verybig shifts in their life. And
I'm in a part where in mycareer, where I'm just like,
this is a career year. Like, Itold everyone, this is a career
year, okay, so, like, theoutings and stuff like that.
Like, I think that's amazing,but this is very much a year
where I'm really trying todedicate to a certain level of
growth so that we can moveforward. And you mentioned the
aspect of reciprocity andfriendships, and they have to be
(13:50):
give and take. I say, when itcomes to being a professor, when
it comes to so many roles, Ialways say it's easy to be bad
at stuff. It is like, it's easyto be it's easy to be a bad
friend. In my opinion, it's easyto for you know, like, to forget
to call to check in to askquestions after you're being
asked. It's easy to forget likesand dislikes. It's harder to
(14:13):
maintain like the same way I'mchecking in with what is my
food? Does my child like applesthis week? Oh, when's the last
time I checked in with my friendto see how that interview for
that promotion went. It's harderto remember, like, Okay, I went
to brunch. When's the last timeI saw so and so to ask if they
wanted to hang out, or when'sthe last time I asked if they
just wanted to watch TV and letthe TV watch us, and we just
(14:35):
drink some juice and just kickit, you know? Like, when's the
like, but it's easy to forgetthings like that, just like you
mentioned, because it isreciprocity. Therapy is the only
and this is the salience intherapy. In my opinion, there's
so many amazing things, but it'sthe relationship is not
reciprocal. You can ask me howI'm doing. That's what's up. You
don't have to, though, like, mywhole job is to collaborate with
you and help you meet what youwant to therapy is the only
(14:56):
advice relationship that if it'shealthy, you. It's not
reciprocal friendships, romanticrelationships, these are
reciprocal like it has to begive and take, because honestly,
the lack of reciprocity istypically a sign for me, with a
patient that I'm like, thisisn't healthy. It's not healthy
for you to only be giving, andit's not healthy for you to only
be taking, and I think it's hardfor people to acknowledge that
(15:18):
shift, because, of course, Idon't think individuals talk
enough about you can grievedecisions that are good for you
too. You can grieve being like,okay, my expectations for you on
the friend scale are bigger thanwhat my expectations would be
for you on the acquaintancescale. And I think that's going
to be better for a relationshipthat also sucks and I'm also
(15:39):
upset about that, like I canacknowledge that, yeah, this is
a better fit for where you are,and it doesn't mean it's going
to be permanent. And I alsothink that's sad, because we,
you know, who talks about thatin life, about, yes, we talk
about marriage and kids, butthen you get to your wedding and
like, hey, you know what thatwhen I used to play mash and I
had all my bridesmaids, three ofthe people who I thought were
(16:00):
going to be my bridesmaidsaren't even here. Man, I'm doing
my baby shower invite list, andthe person who I thought would
be sitting right here planningwith me I haven't talked to in
years. And you know you'reyou're grieving a different
aspect, and it's okay toacknowledge that and mention
that they evolve. It doesn'tmean that they have to end they
could just evolve into somethingdifferent, and if anything,
(16:22):
that's healthier. But I don'tthink that gets talked about
enough.
Unknown (16:27):
It doesn't, and I always like to focus on it was
good until it wasn't goodanymore, or it worked until it
couldn't work anymore. Versusthe perception of this person
isn't here because of all ofthese terrible things, but it
was good until it wasn't goodanymore. And how can we honor
(16:48):
the space to just grieve thatthis friendship that we thought
was probably going to last alifetime, it didn't hit that
goal, but that doesn't take awayfrom the things that I gained
from that relationship, or thereare going to be times where you
do recognize that from the verybeginning, it was a toxic
(17:08):
relationship. And I think thatis something people that is okay
too.
Dr. Raquel Martin (17:12):
You got to be at a healthy space to recognize
what was recognize that exactly,progress Exactly. And
Unknown (17:20):
I talk about how that is something that a lot of
people mourn as well, becauseyou use you take a step back,
and you have this greaterawareness now where you're like,
wow. So this relationship reallywas just founded on trauma and
dysfunction and codependency,and I gave 10 years of myself to
that, and that can leavesomebody in a place of sadness
(17:42):
too and grieving too, becauseyou start to think about all the
things you lost, or all theopportunities that maybe you
didn't gain because you weretied to this particular person.
The same way we will also applythat to romantic relationships.
And so I think grieving is justa huge part of shifts and
(18:02):
relational dynamics, regardlessof what they are, regardless of
what causes the shift, but Idefinitely think that it's one
of those things that isn'ttalked about enough, and it's
not normalized enough. And I dowant to do the work of having
conversations like this. Youknow, I'm happy that we're able
to talk about it, because I dothink that friendships are very
(18:24):
beautiful connections that serveunder tremendous purpose to our
well being and our mentalhealth, and we're meant to have
connections and be a part ofcommunity. But I do think that
when you are a part of thesesystems, a big part of that is
giving space to allowing certainfriendships to be seasonal, but
(18:45):
then also allowing certainfriendships to let it run its
course. And if it's going tolast a lifetime, that is
beautiful, but there are alsogoing to be moments where it
doesn't, and even the ones thatdo last what might feel like a
lifetime, there are still goingto be shifts involved in that,
oh, yeah, you have to put inwork for it to be able to last a
lifetime. And I think that's oneof the things that I want people
(19:07):
to be able to hold on to whereit's like, if you want those
long term relationships that aregoing to flourish over time
again, as we're talking about,is it a reciprocal relationship?
Is a is it a relationship whereyou are communicating and
talking about your needs, ortalking about the shifts, or
just saying, You know what, Iwant to check in here. Am I
(19:29):
being a good friend to you? Iwant to check in here and say,
girl, you know what, I am. Sosorry. I completely forgot that
you got a promotion, and all ofthese new things are happening
for you and I have just beenlost in my own stuff. I can hold
myself accountable enough to bethat friend, to just come forth
and say that, right? And I thinkwhen we can hold ourselves
(19:51):
accountable, when we can bereflective, when we can be self
aware, when we can move ego outthe way, right, and just come to
the relationship. In ourfullness, in our full selves,
and say, I'm not perfect. So canyou make space for me to be
imperfect in this relationshipand call me out when you need
to? Yeah, right. Can we do thatin this friendship so that we
(20:13):
can grow together, and when weget to a place where we feel
like I've called you out enoughand I just don't think this is
going to work moving forward,then we also have to honor when
endings arise as well. Yeah, I
Dr. Raquel Martin (20:27):
say all the time my black love looks like
accountability, because I also,like, I don't need friends
that's just gonna like, big meup during the peaks of life. I
need you to tell me what mybreath stink too. Like, I don't
need you don't only let me know,like, oh, girl, you look
amazing. I need you to tell me.It's also a deodorant thing, you
know. Like, I mean, both, like,you need to, yeah, listen, y'all
(20:51):
need to get you friends willtell you when your breasts
think, Okay, let you need to letme know, okay, because it tastes
fine to me, you know. Like, so Idid not know. Like, I need
somebody like that. I mean,like, don't be, don't be at me.
Don't be getting me played outhere. Like, you mean to tell me
I've been over here humming andhigh and all these people facing
my breath. Like, why I feelbetrayed? Like, oh, my
Unknown (21:16):
God. You know. You know what's interesting about that
too, though, that I have had towork through with clients. A lot
about is, Are you open tohearing the truth? Yeah. And it
takes a lot of self awarenessand reflection on your part to
be able to withstand the friendcoming to you to say, girl, I'm
(21:38):
sorry, but your breath iskicking
Dr. Raquel Martin (21:40):
like you must have had salmon and garlic and
onions, right? What? Right? Itsounds like it smells like it
was delicious, okay, but like, Ishouldn't be able to tell
Unknown (21:52):
yes. Like, I'm saying this out of love on stage. I
want you to do the things thatyou do, but you gotta stay right
here on your shirt and yourteeth. All this is happening,
and can you though, as thefriend on the receiving end, be
reflective enough to take it in,not listen to maybe the stories
that you're telling yourself,but also be able to use
(22:14):
discernment? Yeah. Who is thisperson to me? How long have they
known me? Do they care about me?What is the evidence to show who
they are in my life? Because Ithink another thing that I see
happening that I've had tocounsel women through, is I will
hear them saying they wanthonest conversation, but then
when they get it, it's like myfriend is being a hater, yo. And
(22:36):
it's like, jealous of me. Were
Dr. Raquel Martin (22:38):
they a hater before? Are
Unknown (22:39):
they right? Right. Why can we pause here and take a
moment to really step back andhear what's being said? Let's
dissect this friendship reallyquickly. So this friend has
shown up for you, how many waysthey've supported you, how many
ways they've done all of thesethings for you, but they're
(22:59):
telling you something you don'tlike, something that you're not
ready to hear. And now, all of asudden, they've become your
biggest enemy, a success. Now,all of a sudden they're jealous
of you. Like, how do we No, allof a sudden they're the biggest
hater in your life. How about wejust take a step back from that
and listen to some of thedistorted thinking taking place.
(23:22):
Because maybe, you know, anotherthing that can come up is one,
we have all of these selfdeprecating narratives about
ourselves in certain situations,and so the moment we hear any
form of critique or negativefeedback, we project the
negative ideologies we'reholding about ourselves. And so
if I'm feeling doubt the momentmy friend comes to me to tell me
(23:43):
the truth, Oh no, she's a hater.She's a hater. But really what
I'm trying to say is I don'tfeel confident in what I'm
doing, yeah, and it made me feelreally terrible to even hear my
friend say, girl, I'm not evenconfident in what you do, and
that's what you need. But Iain't want her to tell me that,
but you exactly that is what youneeded. And there's a difference
(24:05):
between you not being ready tohear the truth and your friend
being a difficult person or ahater by telling you the truth.
And I think those are the thingsthat gets friendships really
distorted, because sometimespeople are not doing the
internal work, to be able to bereflective enough to say what is
actually happening here andusing discernment. Because if I
(24:28):
just met you last week and youwant to step into my life and
tell me, Nina, these are myopinions about you. I'm going to
be honest. I'm going to take itwith a grain of salt, because
I'm going to be like sis, who
Dr. Raquel Martin (24:38):
are you? Yeah, that's the thing. It's the
level of relationship. It's thelevel of relationship a lot of
times. And that's what honestlyhelps me on social media,
because when people say crazystuff, it's just, I'm just like,
diatribe 725,
Unknown (24:52):
who the freak is this? I don't know. You comment
Dr. Raquel Martin (24:54):
on my page, honey. I'm not coming on yours.
I don't even know who you are.Versus, if it was my friend, one
of my friends, I would be like.Like, Oh, I need to check that,
because they know me and theyknow your that was not that was
super inappropriate. Like, No,exactly No, it's gonna be you.
Unknown (25:13):
That's when I'm like, alright, you know what? She's
right. My friend is right. Butsince the I just met last week,
mind your business, right? Like,I
Dr. Raquel Martin (25:21):
don't know me.
Unknown (25:23):
Mind your business.
Dr. Raquel Martin (25:25):
People think that my normal face is me being
mad, and I'm like, Oh, I'msorry. I just scheduled like,
four doctor's appointments in myhead, figured out what the meal
prepper is going to be, andfigured out when I get to the
gym. I'm not even here. Okay? Iam not physical. I'm physically
here, but running a wholehousehold, honey. I'm not
physical, no. And I think, youknow, a lot of people ask that
(25:45):
whole like of friends, do youwant support or solutions? But I
was recently talking to apatient, I was like, you know, I
think there should be a thirdoption. I think there should be
a silence option. I don't thinkit should just be support or
solutions. I think it should be,do you need support or
solutions, or do you needsilence and you need to be
within yourself to know that.And silence doesn't mean like, I
(26:06):
can't say anything, butsometimes you really do just
need people to sit there withyou. Like, sometimes you really
do need that aspect. And when itcomes to support, I think there,
sometimes it gets in the way,and people will be like, well, I
can't I want to support you, andI don't agree with that. And
sometimes people support isreally only I just need you to
(26:26):
agree, and it's just like, Ohno, that's silence. You want
silence. You want silence. Andif that's what you want, Lay it
on me. But if you want supportis give and take, right? Like
someone just be like, I totallyunderstand where you came from
with that. I can also understandtheir perception, and they're
just from hearing it, and I'mnot sure if you have done that.
So like, the same way, my myblack love is accountability. My
(26:47):
the accountability is like,okay, so I heard you, and I
think that's amazing. I thinkyou didn't hear part of what
they said, though. Have youconsidered that? Or if you just
acknowledge that you want signand it's okay to say you want
silence, there's sometimes whatI literally be like, Yo, I acted
a a plum fool with my husband.But all I need you to do is say,
How dare he not agree witheverything you say and buy you a
(27:10):
new house just because you askedfor it on a Tuesday. That's what
I need. I need the silence,alright. I don't need you to be
reasonable about he's a goodman. I don't care. As a friend,
you need to act like this issomebody we just met off the
street, not somebody I've beenwith for 14 years. And y'all
need to be okay, you know, likethis ain't I was gonna be all
the time, but like, I'm in amode. I will literally say I'm
(27:33):
in a mood of being unreasonable,yeah?
Unknown (27:36):
And I appreciate that. And I'll add to that too. When
it's like asking that personwhat they need, I also say it's
important to communicate whatyou can give Yes, because there
are also times in a friendshipwhere you will hear that friend
complain about the same thingover and over and over again,
(28:00):
and I always have to remindpeople to not take that
personally, because I think whatends up happening is you put
yourself in a predicament whereyou feel like you have to rescue
or save and so because they keepcoming to you with all of this
stuff, you start to get upsetbecause they're not listening to
you. And you have to rememberyour friend is an adult. Your
friend can make whatever choicesthat they can make, but it is
also okay to be honest aboutwhere you are and what your
(28:23):
capacity is and your energeticbandwidth, to say it's okay to
come with come to me and sharethis story with me, but I'm
gonna be honest with you rightnow, all I can do is listen,
yeah, right now I may not havethe capacity to give You
feedback or advice. And so Ialso tell people to put yourself
(28:44):
in that predicament too, whereit's like, it's important to
ask, because I think that askingpiece generally gets placed on a
pedestal of like, ask yourfriend what they need, and ask
your friend what kind of supportthat they want from you, and ask
them if they want feedback rightnow. But I also want people to
put emphasis on being honestabout what they can give. And
there are just going to be timeswhere you want to talk to me,
(29:06):
and all I can do is actuallylisten, right? And that's really
all I can give you in themoment, because maybe it's my
stuff going on that I have somany things happening that I
don't want to neglect you, but Iwant to hear what's going on for
you, but I just know that Idon't have the ability right now
to formulate an opinion. I don'thave the ability right now to
(29:26):
dissect what's happening foryou. I may not have the ability
to really sit in the thicknessof it and decipher what you can
do or provide you with certainskills and support supportive
tools, but right now, maybe allI can do is listen. And are you
okay with that? Yeah. Are youokay with knowing that right
now, all I can do is be anactive listener to you. So I
(29:49):
think that those are some thingsthat I really encourage people
to utilize in their friendshipsas well, because I think it's a
game changer. And I think thatis something that. Allows us to
grow together when we canrespect the needs and the
capacities of our friends aswell, because we're always
shifting and transforming. Yeah,and it doesn't have to be a big
(30:10):
life change. There could beminor things happening in
someone's life that you don'trealize it's leaving a really
big impact on them. So don'talso assume that my friend is
okay, because there's nothingmajor happening. They didn't
have a baby, they didn't getmarried, they didn't get a job
promotion, but they might beactually going through something
that to them the way it'simpacting them emotionally, it
(30:32):
is a huge deal. And so how canyou show up for them
Dr. Raquel Martin (30:36):
without labeling and deciding and
pulling out your measuring stickhow much compassion they
deserve. Because in your world,it's not that big of a deal, but
in their world it is, becauseit's all relative. And I think
when I was at Hopkins, we themajority of my training is in
trauma, and of course, that'slike incredibly difficult space.
(30:56):
And one thing that we used tosay to each other when we were
going to discuss cases when itwasn't like in case and when it
wasn't in rounds, we would belike, is it okay if I slime all
over you and the sliming allover you? Meant like, I got
something heavy, and like, areyou in a place to be receptive
to the heavy? Right? Because ourcases were incredibly intense,
(31:18):
and if you're going after, ifwe've had back to back sessions
of, you know, dealing withtrauma narratives, and then
someone needs a minute toconsult with you on their case.
But it's like, A, this is aslime case. This isn't like, I
just need a resource. This ishow do I deal with, like, this
heavy stuff. And we would askthat beforehand, and if people
weren't receptive to it, it'sunderstood that, like, Okay,
(31:39):
I'll just check with someoneelse. But you were also giving
that level of disclaimer, right?Because I think people you need
to also acknowledge, like ithurts to see your friend hurt,
right? I did this skit aboutwhat, what not to say to people
when they're in a negativethought spiral, when they're
just like, Oh, I think you'reoverthinking it, and the other
person is just like, Yeah, I'moverthinking it. You think? I
don't know. I'm overthinking it.I'm I'm the one doing it. I'm
(32:02):
aware that it's happening. But Isay that in addition to
providing options about like,what can be helpful, you also
need to realize, are you in aplace where you can be present
for that negative thoughts?Part? Because the thing that
happens is maybe you're watchingthem say these bad things
themselves, and you're trying tohelp, and they're not receptive
to it, and it overwhelms you tobe present for that. Like, okay,
(32:26):
so this is also bringing up,like, am I Are they
overthinking, or am I notthinking enough? You know? Like,
you also need to realize that,like, are you in a space to be
present and it's okay to statelike, Hey, I'm so sorry. I have
to be honest, when you gothrough these things and I don't
know how to help, or I providethese solutions, and they're
still not helpful. I actuallyget overwhelmed, and that causes
(32:46):
me to say stupid stuff, like,you may be overthinking it,
because, like, they know theyoverthink, and they do this for
a living. They know it, like,it's not new to them, right? But
you have to be wherewithal to belike, Oh my goodness. Like, I'm
now I'm getting overwhelmed, andI can't be helpful. You have to
feel what's going on in yourbody, and being like, now you're
trying to jut in because youcan't, and sometimes there is no
(33:07):
solution, right? Like, sometimesyou do have to just sit with it.
Sometimes it is just like, thisis a sucky feeling, and I don't
want to reside here, and I'm notgoing to stay here forever, but
this is where I'm at now. So I'mgrieving right now, or I don't
want to be angry right now.However, I can't acknowledge
that anger is very real in thismoment, and I'm going to be
angry for this moment. Sometimesit's hard to watch that, and
(33:27):
that's sometimes why individualsprovide you guys, some people
write invalidating statementsbecause it's just like, I want
to help. All I know how to do ishelp. You have to acknowledge
that you just you possibly maynot be able to exactly like
That's okay, and it's lesshelpful to say something like
that, right? Like, you also haveto realize, like, what comes out
for you when your friends aregoing through these difficult
times, when they'reoverthinking, when they're
(33:48):
dealing with grief. When I wasyounger, I sucked at managing
grief with people so just bad.Like, I would just be like,
because there is no solution.Like, I used to be very much
solution oriented, and there isno solution. I want to make you
feel better and you're upset,and then I would just come out
with, like, with, like, I didn'tknow what to do, because there
is no solution. And I thinkthat's what a lot of people
(34:09):
struggle with. They're justlike, Well, how do I help? What
if I told you you couldn't Ijust have to go through this. I
just have to be sad or angry orfrustrated. This is just where
I'm at. And you mean, I have towatch you. I can't fix it. No,
you can't fix it. Like, Iappreciate you wanting to, but
no, I'm gonna be sad for aminute. Same thing with
apologies. You can apologize tosomeone or harm that was caused,
(34:30):
and you have to accept that,like, that relationship may
change forever, and they may notaccept it. And even though
you've done the healing and yourealize that you need to, you
know you have remorse, they maybe like, I appreciate that. I
also don't want to, I don't wantto, I don't want to continue on
with this
Unknown (34:44):
relationship. Yes, that is a big one all the time, but I
apologize. I said I was sorry. Itried to make up for it, and
it's like you don't get todictate somebody's healing
journey. You made the decisionregardless of. What your
intention was, your choices madean impact on someone else, and
(35:05):
so they get to choose how theywant to move forward in this
relationship with you, and youdon't get to dictate what steps
they're supposed to take torepair the relationship when
you're the one who caused theharm in the first place. And I
think that's a big thing thathappens in friendship rifts as
well, where people will say,Well, I see they have adjusted
(35:25):
the degree of closeness, and sohow can you honor the fact that
you're not as close as you usedto be? I don't hear them
terminating the friendship, butI do hear that maybe it's going
to take some time for them tobuild trust. It's going to take
some time for them to feel safeenough to be vulnerable around
you, it's going to take sometime for them to manage the
(35:45):
discomfort and manage what'scoming up for them. But
forgiveness doesn't mean thatthey have to reconcile
immediately. It also doesn'tmean that they have to give you
what you want, because nowyou're entering a zone of
entitlement by saying as long asI say sorry, this is what I
expect, and that's not howthings work. So now you have to
check yourself to say, am Ibeing entitled here? Do I think
(36:08):
because I said I'm sorry, thatgives me an opportunity to just
get back into something withouthaving to deal with the
repercussions of it? And sothose are the things too, that I
think in friendships, there's alot of ego work that you have to
tend to. You have to listen tothose cognitive distortions,
which are those negative storiesthat we tell ourselves when
(36:29):
we're jumping to conclusions andwe're making assumptions because
we're not activelycommunicating. These are the
things that people have to bringinto their friendships. And so I
just really encourage people tobe doing that internal work. And
also, if you are in therapy, Iknow we're not in a place yet in
(36:49):
our culture where we arepromoting friendship therapy,
but it's also okay to go to yourtherapist and talk about your
friendship. Yeah, it is alsookay to use that therapeutic
space to say, You know what, myfriend really pissed me off, and
I got to talk to somebody aboutit. It is not gossiping, it is
not tearing them down. You needto have healthy spaces to be
(37:13):
able to vent about your friends.Your friends are imperfect
people. They're going to makemistakes, and you need to use
discernment and wisdom toidentify who are the safe people
that I can go with thisinformation, that I know that
they're going to be a safecontainer to help me process
(37:34):
what I'm going through with thisindividual. If you know you're
going to go to person A andthey'd be like, Oh, girl, I told
you she was messy, and this thatand you don't need to be her
friend, I would say that'sprobably not the person that you
should go to, because they'renot offering you insight into
your own behavior. They probablyhave their own agenda, because
maybe they feel a particular wayabout this person. So now you're
(37:56):
setting them off because they'relike, Oh, I was waiting for
something to happen so that Icould complain about this
person, because I don't want youto be her friend, right? And so
also is this person digging formore information. Now you feel
like you're gossiping and you'retalking about things that aren't
even relevant to the issue athand. And I think because we
have failed for some people tofind those healthy, supportive
(38:18):
networks, sometimes people keepthings bottled in that's
frustrating them about theirfriends because they don't know
where to turn to vent abouttheir friends. I believe in
venting about your friends thesame way we will vent about our
partners. It is okay to ventabout your friend, but you need
to be venting to the rightperson. Vent to someone who can
(38:39):
check you if it's necessary,vent to someone who provides a
psychological safe space for youto process. Vent to someone who
listens, but also usediscernment to recognize, if I
vent in this room, is it goingto be a healthy container I
don't have to worry about nextweek when we're at brunch.
Everybody heard the story,right? Because that's a problem
(39:00):
that's not a safe container. SoI encourage people to also just
be thinking about if you eat,because if you don't have a
therapist, who can you turn toin your life, that you can say
this person is trustworthy,safe, and I can use the sermon
and recognize I know I can sharethis particular issue with this
person, because they're going togive me the feedback that I
(39:20):
need, and they're going to helpme manage this situation. And I
think when we also have thosetools, we will also be able to
see ourselves seeing a shift inour relationships and our
friendships, that is amazing. SoMina. B,
Dr. Raquel Martin (39:33):
thank you so much for coming on the show. Let
everybody know where they canfind you. One you already have
your podcast mindful with Mina.You also have your book, owning
Is it your struggles as well,owning our owning our struggles,
because it's community focused.Good job. I get that. I like I
see what you did there. Allright, tell everybody else
Unknown (39:52):
where they can find you. Well, you all can find me
on social media. My social mediahandle is Mina, underscore B on.
Instagram, but you can just typein Mina B on Facebook, LinkedIn
and Instagram, as well asthreads and as Dr Martin shared,
I have a podcast mindful withNina, and then you can also
subscribe to my substack mindfulwith Nina as well, where I share
(40:13):
a weekly newsletter. So thankyou so much, Dr Martin for
having me. Of course, thank
Dr. Raquel Martin (40:18):
you. You.
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