From Prisons To Pro Sports: George Mumford On Training The Mind

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_05 (00:55):
Welcome everyone.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02):
People are gonna be trickling in for a while.
Sorry we're a few minutes late,but I'm glad that uh you all are
here.
See some familiar faces and somenew faces.

(01:23):
So I'm just gonna mute everybodyexcept for George right now.
So today's an exciting day.
We have George Mumford herejoining us and his assistant
Rocky as well.
But very excited about welcomingGeorge to speak with us, to

(01:46):
answer questions, to share abouthis mindfulness practice and
some pieces about his ownmindfulness teaching journey.
He's been around for a while.
He's been teaching since I thinkthe early 90s, if I'm not
mistaken.

SPEAKER_04 (02:07):
80s.
80s.
Yeah.
Or the 80s.
85, 86.

SPEAKER_03 (02:13):
Yeah.
So he's definitely a teacher ofteachers.
So for those of you who may notknow, George Mumford wrote the
book The Mindful Athlete, whichhe details how mindfulness can
be supportive of athletes.

(02:34):
He's taught mindfulness andmeditation to Phil Jackson's
sports teams of the ChicagoBulls with Michael Jordan and
the LA Lakers, Kobe Bryant.
But his his background is prettydeep and pretty rich.
He's been a longtime student ofteachers like Ajan Cha, Joseph

(03:00):
Goldstein, Sharon Salzburg, JackCornfield.
He was at UMass practicing andteaching MBSR, mindfulness-based
stress reduction.
He has worked with a lot ofinmates in prisons.
He's sort of integratedmindfulness for chronic pain, if

(03:24):
I'm not mistaken.
I believe some work withaddiction.
He's worked with executives froma lot of the world's top brands
like Nike, Google, YouTube,American Express, Lululemon, AT
⁇ T, etc.
He has a course out right nowcalled the Mindful Athlete

(03:47):
Course with an online community.
But it looks like a reallyfascinating structure of a
course that I want to kind ofdig into at some point during
our conversation around bringingmindfulness for peak performance
and integrating it into ourlives for a greater sense of
peace, clarity, self-expression,leadership.

(04:11):
And speaking of leadership, hehas a new book coming out next
year called The Flow ofLeadership.
And you know, he and I bothagree that teaching mindfulness
is a form of leadership.
And so looking forward tohearing more thoughts around
mindfulness and how itcorrelates with leadership.

(04:35):
So really excited about Georgebeing here.
Like most of our guest teachers,he really walks the talk.
You know, I think he's adedicated practitioner.
Just reading his book called TheMindful Athlete gives you a
sense of his heart, his courageto become intimate with what's

(05:01):
unpleasant and with what'sdifficult, sitting in the fire,
you know, finding the eye in thecenter of the hurricane, and
being with what's here,including our stories of who we
think we are and difficulty ofjust being human, as well as the

(05:22):
joy of being human as well.
So he's a dedicatedpractitioner.
He's been teaching to all sortsof different people.
I thought he would be a greatguest because we have a lot of
people in this program withdiverse backgrounds.
And I think that we'll all kindof get something out of this

(05:44):
experience together, no matterwhat our situation is, no matter
who we're teaching, no matterwhere we are on our mindfulness
teaching journey.
So, George, deep bows to you foryour work in the world.
And thank you for joining ustoday.

SPEAKER_04 (06:01):
Thanks, Sean.
So amazing that you folks are onthe call.
I'm excited to be here.
And it's interesting, my myfirst teacher, Larry Rosenberg,
he had a few sort of, I don'tknow what I would call them, I

(06:23):
guess premises, maybe.
He said that if somebody askedme to teach, that I was supposed
to say yes.
And he also, not that I do thatall the time now, and I'd be
overwhelmed if I did, butstarting off, I would say yes.
And he also said that if nobodyshowed up, I was still supposed
to teach.
So it wasn't about who was here,or it wasn't so much about how

(06:48):
many were here, it was aboutjust making the commitment, the
informing the intention toteach, and then to teach, even
if nobody showed up or if it wasjust one person.
So I'm excited about being here.
But what I'd like to do is justengage in what I call arriving,
because a bunch of you folks,I'm pretty sure were coming from
some place or some activity.

(07:10):
And if anything like Rocky andmyself, you are you're, you
know, I I talked to AtheaseRocky about having a full
catastrophe, you know, about youknow, the whole, you know, and
Zoba de Greek, the movie, theyasked him, they said, you know,
are you married?
He said, Yeah, I'm married withkids, the full catastrophe.
So that's another way, even ifyou're not married with kids,

(07:32):
you have the full catastrophe inthe sense that we have a full
plate and there's a lot goingon.
And I I believe the model that Ilearned a long time ago, and
that was if you wanted somethingdone, give it to a busy person.
So I wouldn't be surprised if abunch of us on this call are
probably in that category.
So let's just take a few minutesof just sitting and breathing,

(07:54):
what I call arriving, but it'salso very powerful because it's
it's the beginning of uh thisidea of spending time together,
being present with each other.
And to do that, we have to behere.
And so just tuning into yourbody, you don't have to get into
a cross-legged position, youcould just be sitting, just

(08:16):
having your sternum open,lightly shutting the eyes,
tuning into the body and thebreath, to the extent that we
know that there is a body, soyou can feel the body because
it's making contact withsurfaces and just breathing,
noticing that you're sitting andbreathing, and distinguishing

(08:37):
between sitting and breathing inand sitting and breathing out.
And the idea is, and they talkabout this in uh Satipattana
Sutta, that all we're doing isbeing aware of the body to the
extent that we have a body, tothe extent that there is a body,
and that we can have thecontinuity of mindfulness or

(08:59):
bare awareness, of just feelingthe body in a seated posture
while breathing in and breathingout.
So we can focus on the body as awhole, from the bottoms of our
feet out to the fingertips andthumbs, the top of the head.
We're just sitting and breathingand knowing it.
So when thoughts come, we getdistracted just by thinking

(09:22):
about the body, thinking aboutthe breath.
The attention goes there, andthen it's just a matter of
sustaining it or just beingaware of the sensations of
sitting and breathing andknowing it.

(09:54):
And it's possible as we aresitting and breathing and
knowing it, that we can rest inthe breath.
We can rest in the body.
So, what I mean by rest is justsettling back is this alert,
relaxation, alert, you know,being relaxed and alert at the
same time, and being uh like asilent witness, just observing

(10:15):
our experience in a way wherewe're allowing the body and the
breath to speak to us in its ownlanguage without interpreting,
without interacting, in terms ofinterpret in terms of pushing
away or pulling somethingtowards us in terms of trying to
make something happen or toachieve some state, universe, or

(10:37):
optimal state of mind.
It's really more about justsitting and breathing and
knowing it.
No agenda with no activity otherthan just observing ourselves as
we sit and breathe, observingthe body while sitting on the

(11:40):
important to once in a while totune in and to notice what the
mind is involved in.
So is it with the body and thebreath, or is it involved in
thoughts, images?
Maybe we have to shift positionfor whatever reason or just the
screen.
Just being mindful, beingpresent to what is happening as

(12:02):
it is happening.
And then returning to the bodyand the breath.
Simplicity of just thinkingabout the body, and then the
attention goes there.
Then it's just a matter of justnoticing what's there and

(12:25):
allowing it to be as it is.

(18:36):
And so to continue to be restingin the body, resting in the
breath, and allowing the soundto just come and go, arise and
fade.

(19:58):
And as you breathe out, lettinggo of the body, letting go of
the breath, just opening youreyes.
So thank you for indulging mewith that.
I don't know about you, but Idefinitely needed that.
Felt good.

(20:18):
It's really good.
And so we did a little bitlonger than I would normally do
because we have some time.
But just taking a few minutes,even two minutes, three minutes,
four minutes, five minutes, justsitting and breathing and
knowing it is really powerful,it's really important.
Just have to get a sense of whatI call being in the body and

(20:41):
anchoring and resting.
Because we can actually beengaged in activities like
sitting and breathing andactually resting it.
We don't have to use forcefulenergy, we can just figure out
how to titrate our energy.
So it's just an ease of beingand just sitting and just
collecting ourselves and reallyfeeling like we have arrived.

(21:05):
So I'd like to share with you ortalk to you about how we spend
the time together.
I think it's really important.
I can talk about the story, mystories.
There's a lot of things I cantalk about.
I've been around a little bit,around for several decades doing
this stuff.
So I have a lot of stories and alot to share.

(21:25):
But I'm really interested inwell, what do you want?
Or how can I serve, how can I behelpful today?
And I know you're teachers, oryou're you want to be become
teachers or be better at whatyou're doing in terms of
teaching.
So we can go with that.
But it's be curious for me to ifwe could spend a few minutes
just for me to get a sense ofwho's on the call and what you

(21:48):
all are interested in.
I know Sean didn't know I wasgoing to do this.
I didn't even know I was gonnado this.
This is kind of something that'sjust I just I'm very curious
about who are you?
I mean, I look at you, and frommy vantage point, depending on
your denomination or how youlook at things, I see
masterpieces, I see a lot ofBuddha nature, a lot of Christ

(22:11):
consciousness, a lot of divinesparks on this call.
And I see that.
I don't know what you see, butthat's what I see.
That's what I feel, and that'swhat I'm speaking.
That's what I'm speaking to andspeaking from my dad.
So we can have a lot of fun withthis.
I know what I'm asking you todo.
It's a little challenging, butat the same time, this is our

(22:34):
meeting, your meeting, and I'mgonna we're gonna spend two
hours or hour and a half more.
And I want it to be meaningfuland I want it to be practical
and something that's gonna helpyou.
My intention is to share myexperience, strength, and hope,
and to inspire you to beyourself, to really do what

(22:58):
you're doing wholeheartedly, sothat that ripple was gonna
ripple out to all the folks thatneed it.
I don't know if you noticedthat, but there's a lot of
healing that needs to happen fora number of reasons, and that I
like to think about it asletting it begin with me, which
is another way of saying lettingit begin with us.

(23:19):
So let's just connect, becauseconnection is really important.
Uh, there's a there's areflection that I that I refer
to, and it talks about in the trin this tradition of uh insight
meditation that I come from theTheravadan tradition, but I I I

(23:40):
can't really fit in one boxbecause I use a lot of them.
But it's really about teachersare looked at as good friends.
And so we talk about goodfriends, suitable conversation,
which is about the teachings andhow do we implement the
teachings in our daily life.

(24:01):
And so this is what I would calla suitable conversation or an
apparent of athletics.
This is what I call achampionship conversation.
Because everything begins withthe word.
And in this tradition, if yourmind is right, everything else
is right.
So having the right view, havingthe right intention, having

(24:21):
clarity of what it is we'redoing and and and what what we
want to achieve, and then thenthe process that gets us there.
That's really important.
And so, and if you want to talkor ask questions or want more
information about the meditationI did with you, that's fine too.

(24:43):
But if you're like I mean, I'm arecovering perfectionist, so I
kind of do a lot of things.
I'm like a scholar and apractitioner at the same time.
I study a lot.
Maybe we read the same things.
I mean, I wrote my book and Iread it 42 times, and it's and
I'm just getting started.
So there's something about theidea of what we were doing is

(25:06):
was part of the SatipattanaSutta, mindfulness of postures.
A little bit of Anapanasati,mindfulness of breathing in and
out.
Breathing in, I experience thewhole body, breathing out, I
experience the whole body.
And if you talk about it, ittalks about establishing
mindfulness to the extent orestablishing awareness to the

(25:27):
extent that there is a body andthere's an opportunity for the
continuity of awareness ormindfulness.
So it's a real simple thing.
We do it all the time.
But now, how how you investigateit, that's an awakening quality,
investigation, investigationadamas.

(25:49):
Okay, this is what George says.
Come on, have an experience ofbeing in my body, being present.
So that's what I'm thinking,because I could talk about it,
but I want this to be reallymeaningful.
And also, I'm asking you to stepup.
Because a lot of us like to beserved.

(26:09):
This is not like what's the nameof that survivor on TV where we
get to very vicariously sit backand watch somebody, you know,
make a fool of themselves orsurvive.
You know, this is more about aSocratic, that's how I roll
Socratic style back and forth.
Everybody has something to say,and I and what you think and how
you're seeing things is reallyimportant.

(26:32):
Really important.
It's not just my work, it's allyou know, it's us being
together.

SPEAKER_03 (26:40):
Absolutely.
Thank you, George.
Uh, we do have uh uh Chris here,who is a yoga breathwork and
meditation teacher using thesemodalities to help isolated
elderly population and alsoteens struggling with mental
health.
Yeah, would anyone else like toshare a bit about maybe what

(27:02):
they hope for from this session,anything that they would like
George to speak to?
Uh Zoe.

SPEAKER_00 (27:11):
Thanks, George, for being here and talking with us
and making it conversational.
You say you have lots of decadesof experience doing this.
I come from insight practice,insight tradition a little bit
as well.
And I'm an acupuncturist andhave been doing meditation in
all of my treatments for manyyears.

SPEAKER_05 (27:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (27:32):
And I've been teaching it as well.
And as I get more into teaching,I'm just curious from about the
teaching piece for you throughthe years, like how how it has
changed for you and how it'sbeen shaped.
And I'm also hope happy tolisten to whatever.

SPEAKER_04 (27:48):
Yes, yes.
So how has it changed?
That's interesting.
Well, when I think about it,I've changed, you know, I don't
have as much care as I used to.
I don't have my jerry curl likeI used to have.
And before that, my big fro.
And before that, I don'tremember.

(28:09):
But the first thing we have tounderstand is impermanence.
So things are changing, we arechanging, we are evolving.
Of course, it's it's known thatwe are born, we're gonna we're
gonna die, but in in theinterim, we're gonna get old and
we're gonna get we're gonna haveillness.
So, how how my teaching have haschanged is as I change and as

(28:33):
everything else has changed, howhow can I sustain the essence of
the teachings and and thisever-changing, I'd say we're
changing at an accelerated rateright now.
And you know that's verified byThomas Friedman in his book,
Thank You for Being Lady, talksabout Mother Nature,

(28:56):
globalization, andtechnological, technological
change, and that is acceleratingthings at exponential speeds,
not to mention global warmingand the whole injustice, racial
injustice.
There's a lot going on.
So, how my teachings havechanged is they've evolved to

(29:17):
meet things.
So, this is the amazing thingabout the practice, especially
uh I talk about the fivesuperpowers because I I feel
like people put a lot of burdenon mindfulness.
The mindfulness is this cure,you just need mindfulness.
Mindfulness is the heart ofBuddhist meditation, but it's
supported by right effort, it'ssupported by, you know,

(29:39):
obviously right view of insight,it's supported by right
concentration.
And so there's effort andconcentration, there's this
insight and trust or faith,confidence.
So those five superpowers, youmight say, that's what I talk
about in my book.
They're operating all the time.

(30:00):
And so the idea is what toactually understand that when we
are reactive and we don't wedon't have a practice, we're
we're reacting to things.
And so this process that we'reengaged in creates space between
stillness and response.
And in that space, we get topick and choose.

(30:21):
But in this tradition, we talkabout right speech, right
action, right livelihood, rightintention, right view, right
intention, all of those things.
So in that space, can we liveaccording to that?
So my teachings uh have evolvedbecause if I'm practicing
properly, then I'm creating thismirror mind that just observes
what's in front of it.

(30:42):
And based on what I observe, howdo I make wise choices that lean
more towards peace andunderstanding?
And love versus making choicesthat are the opposite.
So when I when I go into a placelike a prison, I have to just be
present and be able to be withwhat is, know the truth, and the

(31:03):
truth shall make me free, andthen decide how I'm gonna
respond to that given thesituation.
So my teachings have changed,and a lot of it has to do with
me changing because who I am orhow I am being as a teacher is
going to affect my teachings.

(31:24):
And so it's my understanding andmy belief that if you want to
learn something, you teach it.
And so you're teaching andlearning.
So even though I'm giving, thenthe other thing is all that I
give is given to me.
So if I'm if I'm giving them baddharma, I'm getting bad dharma
back.
If I'm giving them a clearclarity, compassion, love,

(31:44):
understanding, then I'm gettingthat back.
So my teaching is evolving tokeep up with how I am changing,
my body, my age, the situationsthat I'm in.
So it's changed to the degreethat before I think I was
teaching, and I even though Iwould say, you know, I'm

(32:04):
teaching something because Iwant to learn it, as I get more
and more into this, what haschanged is those five factors,
those five spiritual uh powersof, or what I call the
superpowers, they have changed.
So as they change, my meditationhas changed.
So this is my my teacher, myfirst teacher, Larry Rosenberg,
said that you can you can reallynotice whether your practice is

(32:29):
getting better or not by thegrowth of those five
superpowers.
So I'm having more confidence.
My confidence in some areasbecomes conviction, getting more
wisdom, more understandingabout, especially about myself
first and then how I interact.
You know, just like theSatavattana Sutta talks about
internally and externally.
So that's the teaching, is howam I observing my own experience

(32:53):
and others' experience?
And then understanding that as Icontinue to apply these
spiritual principles in all myaffairs, not just when I'm
teaching, but all the time,full-time, 24-7, that they're
gonna grow.
So right now, I mean, I've beendoing this practice, especially

(33:14):
because I was in recovery.
I got into it because it was inrecovery and I got clean and I
had chronic pain.
So I came, by the way, ofchronic pain.
And so I got into it, and 36years and almost five months
later, I have more enthusiasmand excitement about life than I

(33:37):
ever had.
So that's how my teaching haschanged because as I change,
that's going to be reflected inmy teaching, and it's a
continuous process of evolutionand getting deeper and deeper in
terms of more concentration,more uh right effort, more
insight about myself and aboutthe universe, how things work.

(34:01):
You know, and I talked aboutobviously mindfulness.
So the mindfulness is somethingthat what does it do?
It cultivates trust, insight,effort, concentration, but it
also balances them.
So it's about not only growingin those, because if I grow too

(34:23):
much in insight and not enoughin faith, then I'm going to be
cynical.
So my teaching has changed as Icontinue to evolve and change.
And what's what's been excitingabout the change also is that
the media or the access toteachings is like never before.
You have access to everything.
Now the challenge becomes how doyou distinguish or discern what

(34:47):
is appropriate and what's not,what's right effort versus
effort, what's right mindfulnessversus this mindfulness and
understanding that stuff.
So my teaching has changedbecause I've I have to
understand who the audience isand meet them where they are.
So, similar to what we're doinghere, my teaching has changed
based on who I'm teaching andhow my own personal practice is

(35:13):
going.
And I would say the biggestthing is for me to keep the
focus on myself.
As I develop, so goes myteaching.
So my teaching has changed fromwhen I first started teaching
when I lived in a meditationcenter in Cambridge.
I would get all of all therequests from folks who would

(35:35):
call a meditation center thatwanted to learn about
mindfulness or meditation.
And I would go out and make,like a doctor, make house calls.
I would go to, could be to aschool, could be at a youth
center, could be to a house ofcorrections, it could be
anywhere.
And I would go and I had tofigure out how I could relate to

(35:56):
them as they are and use alanguage where they could
understand what I, the essenceof what I was teaching without
them thinking that they werejoining a cult or that I was
swearing at them, because theydon't know poly.
If I use poly with them, theydon't know if I'm swearing at
them or blessing them.
So I had to learn all of that.
So my teaching has changedbecause, and the other thing is

(36:19):
I read a lot.
So I read over a book a week forover those 36 years.
So I have to read about things,I have to understand.
Well, if I'm going into prison,you know, what do I need to
learn?
Now, part of it is I learnedjust by observing.
Like Yogi Berra said, you cansee a lot just by observing,
right?
A lot part of it is that, butit's also this idea of wise

(36:40):
reflection, reflection,reflecting on, okay, how did
that go?
You know, what, you know, if Ihad to do it over again, how
would how can I make it better?
Or what worked and how do Isustain that?
So my teaching has changedbecause I have changed, and the
whole thing is about mecontinuing to grow spiritually,
mentally and emotionally, aswell as, well, physically.

(37:03):
I don't have much control overthat.
But but you understand, I stillhave the ability to, you know,
strengthen conditioning,balance, you know, rest, sleep,
nutrition, those sorts ofthings.
But it's it's taking care ofmyself and then being the
message, I would just say.
So being the teaching ratherthan kind of teaching.

(37:26):
So it's changed quite a bit.
And it also changed because ofwho I'm working with.
So when we're working withathletes, when I'm working with
inmates, you don't have a lot oftime.
And you can't go in there andteach inside the prison like I
would do at the meditationcenter or at the YMCA.
It's just different.

(37:47):
So I have to get it real clarityabout, you know, what am I
doing, who am I working with,and and and what's my intention.
So it's, it's, it's all, it's,it's the right, it's right view,
right intention, right speech,right action, right livelihood,
right effort, rightconcentration, right
mindfulness.
They're all sort of in the mix.

(38:10):
And so, depending on what youwant to teach, for me, I teach
the threefold training, whichmeans it's not just mental
development, but effort andmindfulness and concentration.
It's also integrity andmorality.
Not to kill, not to steal, notto lie, not to take intoxicants,
not to engage in sexualmisconduct or misconduct that's
going to hurt others,non-harming.

(38:32):
And then the right and rightview, which, you know, there's a
lawfulness to the universe, andand that, you know, I have
Buddha nature.
And it's up to me to cultivatethat, whether I call it Buddha
nature or the masterpiecewithin.
And there's a teachings andthere's good friends and
community of like-minded peoplewhere we could talk about, have

(38:52):
appropriate conversations abouthow do we do this thing?
How do we can we be morepresent?
How do we make sure that ourteaching is evolving with how we
evolve and how our students orhow our community that we live
in is evolving.
We have to keep up with that.
I can't keep teaching what I wasteaching in 1986.

(39:13):
It's a totally differentuniverse.
So I have to keep evolving, butthis the thing is the same.
The Buddha talks about do good,avoid evil, and purify the mind.
Of course, I changed the mind totalk about the chitta, the heart
and the mind.
Being connected, not being oneor separate, but being one.

(39:34):
So purify the mind.
That's what I'm saying.
That makes sense?
Yes, okay.
Great question.

SPEAKER_03 (39:46):
Beautiful.
Thank you for that question,Zoe.
Yeah, I I really appreciate thedifferent facets that you bring
to your teachings aroundmorality, effort, trust,
concentration.
You know, we can talk about SilaSamadhi Panya, you know,

(40:07):
importance of community.
One thing that I noticed andthat I appreciate about some of
your teachings is that at leastwith the mindful athlete course,
you start with a sense ofurgency, the sense of you know,
having to have have your ass onfire to practice.
And you know, in Buddhist terms,we can talk about samvega, this

(40:30):
like spiritual urgency topractice.
And you know, mindfulness ofdeath is classically known as
the most powerful mindfulnesspractice in the sense that you
know, if we if we really senseinto this very inhale as
possibly being my last, itreally helps us to appreciate

(40:54):
that we could go at any time.
So you know, every moment thatwe're not developing virtue or
mindfulness or concentration maybe a wasted moment.
And so I really appreciate thesense of urgency that you bring
to your teachings and trying tocultivate that sense of urgency

(41:18):
in your students.
And so, as mindfulness teachers,I think a lot of us will agree
that it's it can be difficult toengage students over the long
term or to find out how tocreate that sense of urgency in
our students to practice more.
Because a lot of people willpractice for a week and then

(41:39):
drop off.
Or we ourselves as teachers, youknow, I'm guilty of this too
from time to time.
I'll I will lose my routine orI'll stop formal practice for a
few days, right?
I might not quite have thatsense of urgency to practice.

(42:00):
And so I'm just curious how youhelp people to find that sense
of engagement, that sustainedengagement, that sense of
urgency to practice, how to, youknow, light someone's ass on
fire to practice in a skillful,wholesome way.

(42:23):
So do you have any thoughts onthat?

SPEAKER_04 (42:25):
Yeah, it sounds like you're asking me how do you
motivate people?
There you go.
And and the response to that isyou don't.
You can't motivate somebody.
They have to want it.
I got exposed to this stuff inin college.
And uh, you know, I would I wasat I was at UMass from 69 to 73.

(42:47):
And when they approached me onall of these modalities like
meditation, yoga, tai chi, uh,my response was give me a brew
and get the F out of my face.
You know, I don't have time forthat lame that lame stuff, you
know.
That's that's that's that'sthat's that woo-woo stuff.
I don't want to deal with that.
So I wasn't into it.

(43:09):
And it wasn't until my butt wason fire where I had chronic pain
and I had to just figure out howto manage it.
And so there's a sense ofurgency.
So I would say what got me herewas what I call the AOF method
of motivation, ass on fire.
And now I don't have to have mybutt on fire.

(43:30):
I can get a little heat on onecheek without change.
But even more than that,pursuing excellence and wisdom
with grace and ease.
So I'm not in survival modewhere I'm trying to get out of
survival mode.
I'm in growth mode and I'm I'mI'm seeking excellence.
Okay, I have wellness, butthere's way more wellness that I
can get.
So there's a, and then when yourealize that this is a wonderful

(43:53):
way to live, then the joy thatyou cultivate, like I said, when
you grow in confidence, but yougrow in joy, you grow in
happiness, then then that willbe the motivation.
But initially, uh you have totalk to, you know, it's
important to meet people wherethey are, but to ask them what's
going on.
So for me, especially workingwith the dudes when I'm just

(44:15):
thinking about working at BostonCollege, and I'll be talking and
say, What's up, dude?
What's going on?
He said, I'm chilling.
I said, Chilling ain't gonnamake it.
You know, chilling ain't gonnamake it.
You keep telling me you wanna belike Mike, but you chilling, you
ain't willing.
You ain't willing.
You gotta be willing.

(44:35):
So, what do you want?
So if you tell me you want towin a championship, then you
gotta be a champion.
You gotta shift from doing tobeing, and then you gotta be
interested.
But if I can share my experienceand strength and hope with them
or talk about, well, here's howso-and-so got over it, because I
would tell you, I didn't thinkit was possible for me to get
off of drugs and alcohol to myto a friend that I used to get

(44:58):
high with showed up at my housesober, said, Let's go to AA
meeting.
But it was the right timebecause my ass was on fire when
he came by.
I I just was sick and tired ofbeing sick and tired.
It just nothing was working.
I couldn't stop and I couldn't,I couldn't stop, and I couldn't
keep going.
So that's what I call everybodyhas their spiritual bottom.

(45:21):
I call it the elevator strategy.
It's like, okay, so you're onthe penthouse, but now and
you're on the 10th floor.
Last week, you were on the 12thfloor, so you ain't gotta go all
the way down to the basement.
You gotta all you have to do isunderstand you're going in the
direction you don't want to go,and you can just get off at any
floor.
But when you get off, you haveto really commit to it, but you

(45:43):
gotta take personalresponsibility and you have to
get to a place where youunderstand that the quality of
your life is your responsibilityand you have a you have Buddha
nature.
So I try to create a vision ofpossibility for them.
They want to do it, but thereality is some people are not
ready.
And so we got to allow them tonot be ready.
And I and I remember when I usedto go to A meetings, sometimes

(46:07):
you have a, you might have afriend or somebody, you
encourage them to get as drunkas high as they can, because at
some point they're gonna realizeit ain't gonna work.
Because the more you tell themnot to drink, they're gonna
drink.
So you but you just so we haveto fill out is what Coach Tex
Winner called the readinessprinciple.

(46:27):
Some people are not ready.
They'll tell you that they'reready, but they're not.
And so you focus on the onesthat are ready or create a
space.
It's like, so maybe to answeryour question, answer it this
way.
How many of you folks know ofJohnny Appleseed?
The legend of Johnny Appleseed.
There's this guy who walkedaround and he just threw

(46:48):
appleseeds all over the place,and wherever they took root,
they took root.
That's what I do.
That's what I've been doing.
I plant seeds, and if they getthe nourishment, the sun, and
the and the moisture, you'llgrow.
My job is not to kind of wait orto dig up to see if something's
happening.
I'm just planting the seeds, andif you want to, if you if you if

(47:08):
they take root, they take root.
So it's like I set the table,invite you to sit down.
If you sit down, you do.
If you don't, you don't.
But you just never know.
So that is where we have tostart evaluating.
And I get this a lot in mycourse, and because I get a lot
of folks like yourself who arethe teachers or their sports

(47:30):
psychologists or their teachers,or, you know, they're just
working with their kids.
And it comes up like, well, Ithink they would be, you know, I
think they need mindfulness, orI think they need to do this, or
I want them to do that.
And I say, good luck with that,because now you're already

(47:51):
telling them that there'ssomething wrong with them and
you can fix them.
And so good intentions is, youknow, as they say, it's not
enough.
You gotta have the wisdom, yougotta have the understanding of
what you're doing and whatimpact it's having.
And so to say, well, I think youneed this, it's like you saying,

(48:13):
Well, you know, something wrongwith you, I'm gonna fix you.
Instead of really understandingthat nobody's broke, they're
just lost.
They got ignorance, or they'rebeing driven by greed or hatred.
And so the idea is to help themget back to themselves.
And the best way to do that isto be the message and to talk

(48:34):
about things.
And so you have no idea theimpact you will have on people
just by your being, and you'rejust putting it out there.
Well, you know, if like somebodythey planted seeds, they say,
okay, well, this could behelpful.
So obviously, they planted seedseven when I was in college, and
when I was ready, I was ready.

(48:55):
And so when I deal with theyoung men, like the one I said,
you know, you know, chillingain't gonna get it.
It's more like if you keep doingwhat you're doing, you're gonna
get what you're getting.
So the status quo gotta go.
So what do you say you want?
That's why I begin with what doyou want?
Then who do you need to be toget what you want?

(49:15):
Really simple.
If they get it like I did, oh,this is the way there.
I need to do this to be this orto get to where I want to go.
Then now it's it's interestingbecause I go through periods
like you talked about, there'stimes when you feel like
sitting, sometimes you don't.
Well, to me, you can practicemindfulness and wisdom from the
time you wake up to the time yougo to sleep.

(49:36):
So the informal practice,informal practice, those are
just labels.
So there's no difference whenyou, the master of life, you
can't tell if they're working orthey're playing.
If it's their love or theirleisure, because to them,
they're always doing both.
So the idea is be present forwhatever you do.

(49:56):
So even though you're notsitting and being in silence,
that's one part of it.
The other part of it is more,you know, is right view, right
intention, right speech, rightaction, right livelihood.
So you can look at, okay, how amI feeling?
How am I being?
You know, how's my self-talk?
You know, am I creating, youknow, am I creating more greed,
hatred, and delusion, or am Imoving towards peace and

(50:18):
compassion and love andunderstanding?
So it's that kind of a thing.
So we get these ways of thinkingthat that says, okay, I need to
practice when I'm sitting orwhen I'm in a class like this,
but then when I'm not here, Ican be something else.
Well, I will say who you are asa person is going to show up who
you are as a meditator orwhatever.

(50:39):
And so if you startunderstanding your mind from the
time you wake up to the time yougo to sleep, you have a rough
estimation of whether it'spositive or negative, whether
it's external or external,whether it's focused on self or
other, you can do that all day.
And then your, you know, rightspeech, that means your

(51:00):
self-talk too.
Because we be talking toourselves.
And let me just ask a question.
How many of y'all have hadarguments with folks and they're
not even here?
We all do.
You know, we you know,especially with the significant
other.
I I say at home, I'm that's the,you know, in martial arts, you
say the dojo is a place ofenlightenment.

(51:22):
Well, I'm here to tell you as ahouseholder, your family is a is
a place of enlightenment.
They're the place ofenlightenment.
Because they push your buttonsand they do stuff.
And and actually, and it'sinteresting, especially if
there's a sibling or whatever,you didn't choose them.
Your teammates and your family,you don't choose them.

(51:45):
So you got a choice.
Are you gonna be with them orare you gonna, you know, so we
have this idea of how do we?
So it's like getting a practicethat's both formal and informal,
but from moment to moment, youcan have mindfulness and
insight.
Insight to the degree that wecall it the clear clear
comprehension, mindfulness andclear comprehension.

(52:06):
What's my intention?
Purpose, suitability, what's thebest way to do it?
Domain of practice all day long.
Don't forget your meditationobject, or or maybe you're
working on compassion or orjust, you know, loving kindness.
And then there's the what wecall the realities,

(52:26):
impermanence.
This idea of self.
I don't call it no self, I callit the illusion of separateness.
And then the suffering, it'sjust it's gonna be there.
So impermanent suffering, noself, or the illusion of
separateness.
And so those are the things wecan observe every day.
So when I ring the bell, that'spractice impermanence.

(52:49):
It rises and it fades away.
So we too arise and phase away.
We are not beyond death, uh, oldage or illness.
That's a that's a reflection.
Some some practices.
So we get to understand that,that, and then you can you can

(53:12):
make it joyful.
That's why appreciative joy isone of the Brahma Biharas or the
bind of bodes.
You know, loving kindness,compassion, practice, and
appreciative joy.
Well, what does appreciative joydo?
It says that, okay, so uh uh,you know, I'm a Buffalo Bill, uh

(53:33):
I'm a Dallas Cowboy fan, and theBuffalo Bills just kicked my
butt last night.
So can I can I appreciate thefact that the Buffalo Bills
deserve the win?
They're not my team.
So instead of hating on them,I'm saying, okay, Josh, you
know, Josh Allen had a greatgame, and and you know, more
power to them.

(53:53):
So it's an antidote to jealousyor envy.
So we don't make other theenemy, and you know, we can't,
whatever.
Being a Red Sox fan for a longtime, I could tell you at the
meditation center, I'd getpeople there say, you know, I'm
a Red Sox fan, but they'rewearing me out.
And I said, it was funny, it wasinteresting because I said,
dude, it's about being a fan andnot about whether they win or

(54:16):
not.
But, you know, you can choosethat, or you can choose to just
be a fan whether they win or notand just support them.
And then, of course, the nextyear they won the championship.
He probably thought I wasprophetic, but I wasn't.
I was just being real with it.
So you all understand what I'msaying?
So there's so many opportunitiesfor practice.
And the thing about it is themore you practice and the more

(54:36):
you get the benefit of it, thenthat motivates you to continue
to do it because it's a greatway to live.
And there's so much joy when wecan help somebody find
themselves or get an aha moment,or just the idea of we're we're
planting seeds, and we can'tjudge our performance on whether

(54:58):
or not there's fruit that we cansee right away.
That fruit might not ripen foryears.
But I, you know, I could tellyou that I was teaching at the
Insight Meditation Center inCambridge.
This guy came up to me after,you know, at the end and said,
hey, George, remember me?
And he was a guy that I taughtin prison, and he had an odd

(55:20):
exhibit.
So he was out doing his art.
That was 20 years later.
I had no idea.
I just went in and just workedwith dude, and here he is out
here and doing his art andbeing.
And, you know, showing up at themeditation center.

(55:41):
I always think, well, we mayneed a center for those cats,
because, you know, they show upto the meditation center and
they go into the hall and theysee, you know, I'm just gonna
say it, when I did thethree-month course in Barry, and
of course I was a wise guy, so Iwas laughing.
So you go and then you put up,take off your shoes when you go
into the meditation hall.

(56:02):
There's a hundred yogis, and Iguarantee you there were 93
pairs of Bergen stocks.
So I'm just saying, you know, soI just laughed at it.
I said, Oh, that's this isinteresting.
Now I could have said, well, youknow, I don't belong here
because I don't have any Bergenstocks.
I didn't say that at all.
I just said, oh, that'sinteresting.

(56:23):
You know, and I just it wasfunny.
You know, I just laughed.
So you get what I'm saying?
So it's it's like it's justreally about just being alive
and just just do good, avoidevil, and purify the mind.
Really that simple.
But it's simple, it's not easy.
But that's how simple it is.
It's how do I train my mind ortransform my mind so that it

(56:46):
becomes my best friend and itcan see clearly, it can both see
and know what is happening.

SPEAKER_03 (56:55):
Absolutely.
There's a lot of nuggets ofwisdom in there.
So I'm curious what's coming upfor some people here.
What do you all think?
Yeah, what do you think aboutthat?

SPEAKER_02 (57:17):
I think I think it's all like stuff that resonates
and I I find myself you know,like, yeah, everything makes
sense that you're saying.
And then sometimes like, youknow, and and maybe you could
speak to this, like the I thinkfor me right now in my practice

(57:38):
is the emotions seem to like getin the way, or I feel I'm
feeling at too attached to myemotions, and then they're so
it's it's it's kind of like kindof like blocks to you know, to

(58:01):
to embody all of these, youknow, the the super the
superpowers, to embody them outin the world, not just you know,
in inwardly during my practice.

SPEAKER_04 (58:14):
Well, can you give me an example of the emotion?
I know you say emotion, but canyou give me one?
What what is the emotion?
Or is it this, you know, becauseI I would say I'll ask you that,
but I would say the emotion isnot the issue.
The issue is the unpleasantnessof it.

SPEAKER_02 (58:29):
I guess maybe it's maybe it's the the limiting
thoughts and beliefs that thenbecome emotions, like um, you
know, I might get angry becauseof how things are right now, or
because of maybe you know, I'mI'm cynical because of things

(58:54):
I'm learning that other peoplehaven't, or or my perspective is
very different from most peoplenowadays, and and I um so those
emotions come up and while I'mout in you know in the community
and not that I'm yelling atanyone, of course, but they just

(59:20):
it's it's hard to for me in thisexample to just be more
accepting of wherever anyone isat.

SPEAKER_04 (59:28):
Oh, so is that what you heard me say?
No, I'm just speaking ingeneralities in terms of No, but
I'm I'm I'm really really surebecause your word you just said
accepting things.
And so acceptance isn'tsomething that you just do, it's
something that you work at toyou, it's a point you get to.

(59:51):
It's not something that's given.
You got your work through it.
So you're talking about yourrelationship to your emotions.
Your emotions have a purpose,they emote us, they they move us
towards life and away fromsuffering, whatever.
And emotions is not the issue,it's your relationship to them,
and it's not understanding.

(01:00:11):
You know, there's a formula thatGandhi uses that I put in my
book.
Your beliefs become yourthoughts, your thoughts become
your words, your words becomeyour actions, your actions
become your habits, your habitsbecome your values, and your
values become your destiny.
So when you have anger, it'stelling you something.

(01:00:34):
So you gotta listen to it.
It's telling you something.
But if you say, oh, I gotta getrid of it, and I've done this,
and I call it the four A'sawareness first, then the
acceptance, which is thechallenging part, then the
compassionate action.
What are you gonna do with theanger?
And then the four One isassessment.
What worked, what didn't work,what do I need to learn in
practice?

(01:00:54):
And so when anger comes up, youneed that anger because that
energy is going to help youmove, push forward.
But it's like mass to lots.
You have to marshal it and notbe identified with it.
And that's the thing.
What are emotions for?
That's what I hear you asking.
You know, how do I manage myemotions?
You manage them by what I liketo call, you embrace them,

(01:01:16):
whether it's pain, whatever, andyou investigate what is this?
What are my thoughts?
You you are getting at it.
What was I thinking?
What was my belief system that'scausing these automatic negative
thoughts?
Or, oh, I'm cynical.
Well, that's telling you, youneed more faith.
You need more faith.

(01:01:38):
So we just look at it like we'recynical and we're always going
to be that way and we're uselessbecause mindfulness is too much,
too much insight, not enoughfaith.
And then sometimes we have toomuch faith where you're talking
to somebody and they're they'renot realistic.
Everything they're saying is notverified.
You get what I'm saying?

(01:01:58):
So we can even say we can usetoday's like, okay, I won the
election.
Well, okay, verify it.
It's polyanderish, it's notreal.
And we do it all the time.
Oh, yeah, well, you know, theymust have been this.
No, it's investigate, see ifit's true.
That's what this is about.
Investigate.
So you got anger, you got fear,you got frustration.

(01:02:21):
Great.
Are you reacting to it or areyou responding to it?
Because it's telling you thatyou're seeing things in a
certain way, or you haveattachments, or there's
something's not right, becauseyou're angry because somebody
disrespected you.
You need to know that.
Because a part of us is nothonoring that.
And then because we we ignoreit, we're kind of saying we

(01:02:43):
don't matter.
You feel me?
You get what I'm saying, Amy?
So it's like, but it's allhaving the right view.
You have the wrong view, whichis you're coming from fear or
coming from the fight, flight orfreeze the sympathetic nervous
system, not not seeing the wholething.
Yes, this is true.
And I can, I could, I couldgenerate hope, or there's a way

(01:03:06):
out.
Great.
That was me.
I was like, oh my goodness.
But once my friend said, heyman, you get there's a way out
of this.
I'm okay.
You know, let's go.
Let me check it out.
See if it's true.
So emotional life or heart, sowe were talking about, sometimes
it has to break open.

(01:03:28):
And sometimes, you know, we needto see that when we have
emotions, we don't just havethem, we identify with them.
And they're just passing.
This woman that wrote the book,My Stroke of Genius, she was
saying it takes about 90 secondsfor an emotion to process
through.
That's why we talk about bareawareness.
Okay, I have the emotion, I'mtalking to you, I can feel it in

(01:03:49):
my chest, tight.
Now I can call it fear, I cancall it anger or whatever it is,
anxiety.
But all is necessary is for meto notice, oh, it's just this
sensation of this tightness, andI can breathe with it and allow
it to, just like the bell, torise and fade away.

(01:04:09):
But if I make space for it, thenI'm gonna heal, you know, it's
like stop, rest, and heal.
Then we can heal from it, justletting it be there and not
having to do anything with it,but just let it be.
But I know if so it's a process,but you figure it out because

(01:04:31):
everybody has to figure out forthemselves.
Amy has to find out her way ofdoing it.
I'll give you a teaching, butnow you got to understand.
Okay, so maybe I have to look atmy beliefs.
So I don't know what my beliefsare, but because behaving a
certain way, then I have to workbackwards according to how I'm
behaving.
The belief had to have beenthis.

(01:04:53):
You understand?
Or we call them hindrances.
It had to be the hindrance, andthat hindrance hinders our
ability to be present and to seeclearly.
So, whatever the hindrance is,and right effort we use to
release it.
So you get hung up in the story,I get hung up in a story in
actuality.
I just gotta know, oh, there'sanger in my mind.

(01:05:15):
There's anger present.
And how do I relate the anger inthe way that I get purified?
Or I, you know, I'm not reactingto it, I'm just noticing it.
Then how do I want to deal withit?
And sometimes you want to feelthe anger and have use and use
the anger, energy of the angerto tell somebody, you can't do
this, you can't disrespect me,or whatever.

(01:05:37):
But can you be, can you meanwhat you say without being mean
when you say it?
And we come up with the rightspeech.
So they can probably hear yourather than, you know, making
them wrong, even though they arewrong, but it's something about
making them wrong and makingmyself wrong, or vice versa.
So it's really more about how doI handle the heart with care,

(01:06:00):
with compassion, with affinity.
That's what it comes down to.
And I have to do that formyself.
And then when I can do that formyself, now when Susie has it,
okay, I can speak to Susie frommy experience, strength, and
hope.
And even if I haven't gotten toit, I know, okay, this is a

(01:06:20):
hindrance, and it's it's gonnaprevent you from being present
or prevent you from seeingclearly.
So we abandon, how do youabandon the hindrance?
You know, and that's the righteff that's the work of right
effort.
You know, you it has originalhow do you abandon it?
But then once you abandon it,how do you prevent it from
arising in the first place?
And then you start getting intothe teaching, you realize all of

(01:06:43):
the suffering arises at one ofthe sense doors.
Comes through one of the senses,through thought, through,
through the eyes, ears, and noseof sensation that's gonna come
through.
And if we can just catch it whenit comes through, it makes all
the difference in the world.
I'll give you an example.
When I was teaching in prison,this one prison, and there was a
prison where, because of WillieHorton, you heard of Willie

(01:07:06):
Horton, they had all these guysthat were in there for life,
they were never getting it out.
And we'd be meditating, and theintercom would come on, and it
would be a correction officer.
That's what they call himcorrection officers.
His voice would be on theintercom and so-and-so go to the
dispensary or whatever.
And so I had inmates justsitting there and they hear
dude's voice, and they hatedude.

(01:07:27):
And so, and not only do I hatehim, but he's messing up my
meditation.
And I'm thinking and I'm like,you know, that mopo, you know, I
can't stay.
And then you you're off to theraces, right?
With the anger.
And so when he talked to meabout it, I said, dude, I got a
quick fix for you.
Just notice that every time theintercon comes on, it's the

(01:07:49):
mindfulness bell.
Just be mindful, just be withyour breath and just keep it at
the bare at just contact.
Okay, there's a sound, there'smy ears working, and then
consciousness goes out.
Can I just keep it at hearing?
Just okay, it's a sound.
Or mindfulness, be mindful,okay?
Breathing and out.

(01:08:10):
Okay, I got this anger, youknow, my jaws are tight,
breathing out, and just noticeit, okay.
Then I then I start to get tothe point where I'm not reacting
to the anger, I'm just noticingit coming up.
But if I can just catch it, andof course I'm not gonna catch it
for the first thousand times,probably.
But at some point, I'm gonnacatch it.

(01:08:31):
The mindfulness is gonna bequick enough to be able to
notice.
Oh, I'm just hearing.
Just hearing, just sound.
So, this is the power of thispractice, but we have to study
and we have to understand howto.
So, what you're going through, Iguarantee that we all go through

(01:08:51):
it, and the people you areteaching are going through it.
So, when you master it or whenyou understand it, even if you
don't really do it all the time,there'll be some times you can
do it, and then as you evolve,there'll be times when you can
do it more or catch it quicker,or there'll be some sign of
progress.
Because I like to use thedefinition of success as a

(01:09:12):
progressive realization ofworthy goal.
So you don't have to wait tillyou can do it before you're
happy.
You can celebrate, okay, well, Icaught that quicker.
And then when you see that, nowyour confidence grows and the
cynicism will abate because nowyou have proof positive.
So it's not something that youheard or thought about, it's a

(01:09:35):
direct experience or intuition.
You intuit it, and you have adirect experience of it, which
makes it powerful.
And that's the whole goal is canyou have a direct experience of
the teaching?
So you know you have aconviction about it.
You have confidence, but youalso have trust, but you have
conviction because you have theexperience of it and it works.

(01:09:58):
And then that can that willgrow.
So it's a matter of you havingthe right view.
If you're in coming from fear ordesire, and we have this
spiritual greed, we all have it,right?
If we understand it, if we canget the get into this just clear
seeing or coming from a place ofthe opposite of greed, you know,

(01:10:19):
generosity, compassion.
Oh, this is gonna help me withmy students.
That's how I wrote the book.
When I can think about helpingother people, it's easier for
me.
Now, I don't know how it worksfor you, but saying, oh, I'm
gonna do this because it's gonnahelp me help other people, it
makes it easier.
But you'll figure that out.
It's what we call skillfulmeans, and you'll start to
figure out how you need torelate to your experience in a

(01:10:41):
way where there's an openness toit, there's a willingness to
just investigate and see what'shere.
But can you see just by youchanging how you see it,
everything changes?
That's why we start off withright view.
Right view, then you're gonnahave right intention, you're
gonna have right speech, rightaction, right livelihood, right

(01:11:01):
effort, right concentration,right mindfulness.
And so this is too damn simple.
It took me decades to figurethis out.
You feel me?

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:14):
Thank you.
That was great.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:16):
Yes.
So I'm not just talking to you.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:20):
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
I just I I just feel like Iresonate so much with what
you're saying that I understandyou're talking to everyone else,
but I feel like Well, I'mtalking to you, but I am also
like, so I actually I I likejust you know this day,
everything that happened, theone thing I knew I had to do was

(01:11:43):
come here.
And I I just feel like there isa reason why I'm here and why,
you know, there's I don't know.
So thank you.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:56):
Well, thank you.
I really you have no idea howmuch I'm learning from you
folks.
That's what always cracks me up.
People say, Oh man, we'reteaching this so much.
I said, There's one of me andfour and 13 of you, I'll get
more than you are.
I'm just saying.
That's a good one.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:16):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think as mindfulnessteachers, we're just continually
learning so much as teachersthat we might not have learned
if we hadn't started teaching.
Amy, thank you so much for thatgreat question and George for
your answer.
You know, and I think a lot ofus as mindfulness teachers do
have limiting beliefs about whatwe can do, who we are as

(01:12:40):
teachers, you know, like who wecan impact.
There's all sorts of limitingbeliefs that we have.
And you know, I think one ofGeorge's first compliments was,
you know, like can we be withthe unpleasantness of that
limiting belief?
And oftentimes we might judgethat limiting belief to be good

(01:13:03):
or right, or sometimes we'lljudge it to be wrong or bad.
And so just kind of noticingwhat comes up in our response to
the belief and whether it feelspleasant or unpleasant, and
investigating, being curious,sensing into it.

(01:13:23):
And you know, not necessarilybelieving our assessment of that
judgment of it being good orbad.
But uh, you know, we're notalone.
A lot of us have these limitingbeliefs that come up from time
to time when we might be in newsituations.
Maybe we start trying to teachthings that we might not be that

(01:13:45):
competent in, or somebody uh aska question that we might not
know an answer to.
Or maybe we're just having arough day and it's difficult to
embody the practice.
And so we all have these fromtime to time, and and so you
know, when it does come up,sensing into it with you know,

(01:14:08):
this caring, gentle curiosity,allowing it to be here, and then
you know, going from there.
George gave us a lot of greattools there on what we can do
with that.
So I think that's applicable toto most of us, if not all of us.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14:28):
So where's all the guys?
I know.
Normally we have four guystonight.
I'm not saying on the call, Imean, uh you know, I'm I'm doing
my Vend diesel, step up.
You know, he said, well, what hereally said was don't get up if
you can't keep up.
So but I know you can keep up,so I'm just saying, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:49):
Well, we do got we do have a guy, uh Stefan here.
Stefan, would you like to sharesomething?

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:55):
Yeah, I was gonna wait because I just got here,
but you know, if someone saysstep up, I can't quite
invitation.

SPEAKER_04 (01:15:01):
We're waiting for you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:05):
Yeah, I'm and please uh forgive me if this has been
discussed.
I couldn't get out of acommitment for the first hour,
so I just got out here.
But I I just really like lookingforward to tapping into your
wisdom on this.
I'm looking to, you know, andalready working with people that
are more, you know, looking forhigh performance, you know, with
companies and whatnot.
And, you know, that's I think areal big focus of your career
too, working with athletes.

(01:15:26):
And they all want these likejuicy states, right?
They're looking for like thezone or like a high performer's
looking for the flow state.
Correct me, these soundssimilar, probably are.

SPEAKER_05 (01:15:36):
Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:36):
You know, mindfulness is is about not just
seeking like this ideal state,but being with non-ideal states
too, and and being accepting ofthem.
But you know, people still wantthe goods in that regard.
So, how do you balance kind ofreally giving people the tools
to set up the right conditionsfor these like optimized
performances?
Yeah, yeah.
Not teaching them to like befine with like less, less

(01:15:59):
desirable states.
Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 (01:16:01):
Yes.
So first off, the best way toget in the flow is not to try to
get in the flow, which you knowthat and you're trying to
communicate that to them, butthat's the real deal.
But mindfulness and uh thesuperpowers that I talk about
make you flow ready.
So there's a science, there'sactually a genome to flow.
So the optimum conditions offlow is you know, having being

(01:16:25):
clear about what it is you want.
And then there's a graph thattalks about so your challenges
and your skills have to be high.
And so you have to be in a highstate of arousal.
So you have to be uncomfortable.
And and you're always looking toget better.
It's continuous processimprovement.

(01:16:47):
And so there's conditions.
So if they are working on theirskills, knowledge, experience,
and they continue to challengethemselves so that they're out
of their comfort zone, they'regonna be all right.
And they don't have to be a lotout of your comfort zone,
according to what what what Iread is 4%, up to 4% is probably
okay.

(01:17:07):
So over 4%, there's too muchanxiety, then it becomes
counterproductive.
So there's this stuff.
So once again, right view,getting the right, seeking to
understand, oh, what is the whatis what is the process of flow?
What's the anatomy of flow?
I talk about it in my book, andand what do I need to understand
that that will help me?

(01:17:28):
And so it's the same thing.
I've been trying to write a bookfor 20 years.
When I stopped trying to write abook, it wrote itself.
Now I teach this stuff, and itstill took me 20 years to get to
get a book out.
You know, so when I work withathletes, I say the best way to
do something is not to try to doit.
Just form the intention and thenallow it to happen.

(01:17:49):
So, like flow, you you have tobe, you have to work, and and
even Herbert Benson has anotheridea.
He says you struggle, keepstruggling, and then when you
release, then you get into flow.
Then when you're in flow, youhave a new normal or you're
leveling up.

(01:18:09):
But after you have flow, yougotta rest.
And so, unless you have thegrowth mindset versus a fixed
mindset, uh, you won't continueto do it.
But you are you need to have anactivity that has complexity
because you need complexity tokeep having flow.
So it's like a step function.
So you go up, you have flow,then it plateaus, then you gotta

(01:18:30):
go up and plateaus is like astep function.
That's how we do it.
So I talk about gettingcomfortable, being
uncomfortable.
You have to keep pushingyourself out of your comfort
zone, but not but in acompassionate, incremental, it's
like yoga, you know, it's likeyou get to your, as you've seen
yoga teachers on on the call,you get to that limit and you

(01:18:53):
hang out there.
So you start a little bit belowyour limit, and then you just
gradually move through it.
And when you do it withcompassion, with mindfulness,
with with with a sensibility,then you expand because the
opposite is true.
If you don't honor your limit,then you stress you actually
will end up having lessflexibility because you you hurt

(01:19:15):
yourself and then you you youknow you just aggravate the
tendons and everything becauseyou're not listening, you're not
going with what is.
You're just trying to dosomething without being
sensitive to it and then makingthe incremental step.
So the whole idea is, yeah, youcan get in the flow, but you
have to work for it.
So you're always working onskills, knowledge, and

(01:19:37):
experience or your yourcapacity, and then you have to
keep challenging yourself.
So what got you in the flowtoday won't get you in the flow
tomorrow.
So you have to continue theflow, and then you don't look
for flow, you just have to bepresent and keep keep on doing
what you're doing with you knowwhat we're talking about, and
you'll you'll get in the flow.

(01:19:59):
But you have to research, youknow, what are the optimum
conditions for flow state?
And then you study that, andthen then mindfulness is going
to be there, but then you haveto be aware of the fact that
even though you say, well, I'mgonna let it happen, there's a
body just like this.
It's not letting it happen.
That's where the wrong effortcomes in.

(01:20:20):
That's where the right effortand just, you know, I like to,
when I talk about right effort,I like to use the old uh nursery
tale about the the tortoise andthe hair, you know, where the
hair goes and rests, and thetortoise is just keeping slow.
And so it's like a line from aHokie Carl Michael song, slow

(01:20:42):
motion gets you there quicker.
Slow motion gets you therequicker.
So you just keep on, so youintend, but then you have to
allow it to happen.
And of course, that's anadvanced practice because even
though we say we're allowing it,if you look at what we're doing,
there's not the faith, there'snot the confidence there

(01:21:03):
sometimes.
But when we start to understandit, and when we get, like I was
talking about with Amy, when weget a direct experience of it,
then there's a willingness, iswhat we call strong
self-efficacy belief.
When you really believe in yourcapacity and when you mastered
situations, difficultsituations, it's called mastery
of difficulty.

(01:21:24):
Then because you have strongself-efficacy, you have more
persistence and you have morefaith in things, and you'll set
more challenging goals becauseyou know that you have the
capacity to meet the challenge.
And so the rich get richer.

(01:21:44):
Okay, cool.
Great question.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:49):
George, you you mentioned something in there
around four percent inrelationship with to growth.
It sounded like there's a youneed something four percent more
challenging.
Can you explain?
Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:22:03):
So let's say let's say you're you're you're you're
using a certain energy or you'removing and you're you're at your
limit.
So you know you're at that, orjust a little bit below your
limit.
You just have to get a littlebit better each day.

(01:22:23):
It's like increments, smallincrements, little chunks.
That's all you need.
And you get that progressiverealization of a worthy goal.
So, what we tend to do is wetend to do it without
sensitivity.
That's why when you're doing ayoga post, you have to ease into
it and breathe into it and notpush it.
You have to ease into it.

(01:22:44):
So that's what I'm saying.
So, but if you keep easing intoit, you keep getting to a point,
at some point, you go, this iswhat the research says, if you
go be beyond 4%, then there'stoo much anxiety for you to be
able to function properly.
So there's gonna be, there's adifference.
You go from anxiety into a highstate of arousal.
And elite performers know thatwhen they're in a high state of

(01:23:05):
arousal, they're closer to flow.
And that they'll still, becausethey have the strong
self-efficacy belief, they'llcontinue to persist, even though
there's no there's no feedbackfrom the environment telling
them that they're doing theright thing.
They just trust and they justease into it, then they get in
the flow.
Whereas the non-expert or thenovice will actually lower their

(01:23:28):
challenges or withdraw energyand focus when they're really
close.
But because they don't have thebelief system that yes, I can,
it's gonna be great, and theydon't see it as a challenge,
they see it as a curse orsomething, saying that they're
they're not gonna be able to doit rather than seeing it.

(01:23:48):
That's why coming from thatbasic goodness or greatness from
the eye of the hurricane, andyou can just say, yes, you know,
I'm a bat Mofo.
I can do this, it's gonna begreat.
You like that one, Stefan?

(01:24:09):
Yeah, I watched Transformers, sowhat can I tell you?
Yeah, I watch uh I watch all ofthat stuff, you know, Lord of
the Wings, Star Wars.
I was kind of, you know, I waswatching a program one one day.
It was on, I don't know whatDiscovery, but it was talking
about how uh science fictionbecomes science fact.

(01:24:33):
And they were talking aboutGandalf and Obi-Wan Kenobi and
and who is the other one.
And I was looking, I said, hey,that's me.
I'm Obi-Wan Kenobi.
I'm Yoda.
That's what I do.
You must have learned all thatyou have learned.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:52):
Right.
That's why I became a monk wasbecause of Yoda.

SPEAKER_04 (01:24:56):
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah, so you you should checkout Man the Mandalorian.
Yeah, yeah.
That's that's the beginnings ofYoda, I believe.
Oh, wow.
It's on Disney, you gotta checkit out.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:10):
Yeah, yeah, I I really like that four percent
you know, rule of thumb.
When you're teachingmindfulness, so you know, I
think this premise of liketaking baby steps is really
helpful as a practitioner, andthen as teachers, we need to

(01:25:34):
keep growing as as teachers anduh practitioners.
You know, you mentioned thatyou've done at least one
three-month meditation retreatat IMS.
You know, as mindfulnessteachers, how do you or like
what do you recommend teachersdo to keep sort of building on

(01:25:56):
that four percent?
What what's what are yourrecommendations regarding silent
retreats, hours of practice,types of practices, any thoughts
on growth as mindfulnessteachers to keep building that
four percent?

SPEAKER_04 (01:26:13):
Yeah, I think daily life, I think I did the three
month retreat like uh 30 yearsago.
And it was a time when I when Iwas making a transition, I had
two years where I just workedand I lived in a meditation
center for six years.
So, you know, that was then, andnow it's like daily life and

(01:26:33):
just reading, studying, youknow, doing meditation retreats
when I can.
But the main thing is having ahome practice, and it's not so
much the length of time as it'sthe quality of the set.
So, so it's just thinking.
But like I said, it's like youcan practice from the time you
wake up to the time you go tosleep.
That you gotta keep askingyourself, you know, I'm seeing

(01:26:55):
something.
Why, how why how am I seeing it?
Is there is there is it is itright intention?
You know, do I have the rightview?
Is my mind full of greed orhatred or confusion versus, you
know, generosity, uh, you know,letting go, love and compassion,

(01:27:16):
or I just use it too.
Is it in fears or in love?
Talk about, you know, is my mindfull of fears or full of love?
Really simple like that, andthen starting to understand and
think about things.
But I also read a lot aboutpsychology.
I read a lot of books that havenothing to do with meditation.
I read about quantum physics.
I'm just curious.
So I just read about stuff.

(01:27:37):
And and I have uh I have one ofmy, you know, uh Rocky knows
Steve.
So Steve has been with me sinceI worked with him when he was a
point guide at BC.
He sent, you know, I usuallysend him books.
He just sent me three books toread.
And and I said, so we weretalking today.
And so I said, dude, man, I knowyou don't, what are you trying

(01:28:00):
to tell me?
So he sent me a book by Shalom,two by Charlamagne and one by 50
cents, or 50 cents, uh, theysaid.
And I said, dude, what are youtrying to tell me?
And, you know, I said, okay,because Steve, he doesn't say
too much.
He just says a little bit.
So sometimes I don't know if ifI'm mentoring him or he's

(01:28:20):
mentoring me.
That's what I mean by therelationship.
And he, and I, and so it's likereading a book, and it's like,
okay, so I need to understandthe hip-hop culture because I
use the hip-hop culture.
When I talk about meditation, Italk about this philosopher by
the name of Dr.
Dre.
He says, I got my mind on money,money on my mind.

(01:28:43):
That's meditation.
To meditate is to contemplate,to contemplate is to look at
repeatedly or closely.
So, what are we meditating on?
So we're meditating all daylong.
There's no neutral thoughts.
So the opportunity for practiceis vast.
But you have to have theteachings, good friends, and
then suitable conversation.

(01:29:05):
Does that make sense?
And so you do that.
So the sitting in silence,that's helpful when it's good at
a time when you can do it.
But when you had a fullcatastrophe, you have kids and
stuff, you don't have time forthat.
So you gotta you, so I I everyother year I teach at IMS with
Narayan, who's one of the mainteachers there, who's been my
teacher for years, but we teachtogether, and and the retreat is

(01:29:30):
called Your Practice Is YourLife.
And we have a meditation centerin the center of Cambridge and
in the city.
That's what it's for.
It's like you gotta bring, yougotta have somewhere you can't
go off, so maybe you can go forit, maybe for sitting or talk or
workshop or ongoing class, butit's con it's the continuity of

(01:29:55):
doing it in community and justfiguring out what you need to do
right now.
So, do you need to go on a longretreat?
No, I don't think so.
I see some people that go on along retreat.
I'm just gonna be honest aboutit.
They go on a long retreat forthree months, then the other
nine months, they're mindlessand they leave the retreat with
more energy than they werebefore, and they're still a

(01:30:16):
knucklehead.
They're not, they're just doingthe mental thing.
They're not doing the I'm justbeing honest.
And it's like, so if yourpractice is not, I don't care
what you're doing, if it's notworking, then why do it?
I don't want you to listen to meif it's not gonna help you, if I
can't give you somethingaccessible and practical, why do

(01:30:38):
it?
And so it's we get hung up onform, and the form is helpful,
but it's the quality of mind youhave when you're in the form
that's gonna determine the.
Quality of your experience.
So I'm trying to make this assimple as possible.
If your mind is right,everything else is right.
So if your mind is wrong andyou're on retreat, you're going

(01:31:00):
to be practicing wrongmindfulness, wrong view, wrong
intention.
That's why we say right view,right intention.
It's predicated on wisdom andintegrity, morality.
So that's it.
So it's like, and then youfigure it out for yourself, and

(01:31:21):
sometimes you do a self-retreat.
But it's really, to me, it'smore about having, like Joseph
Campbell says, you have to havea top holiday where you have
your sacred space and you don'tthink about, you put everything
aside.
You don't know what the news is.
You know, I know Johnny needs,you know, new pair of shoes or
whatever, or whatever it is.
You have to be able to just, youknow, you know, I don't know how

(01:31:44):
I'm going to pay rent.
Whatever it is, you have to havethat space where you're just
being in that sacred space andjust being with yourself.
You have to do that.
And so I got it's this woman,she has this column called Brain
Pickings.
Every Sunday I get it, and shehas her 10-year lessons, and one
of them is pockets of stillness.

(01:32:06):
So you have to find so you don'thave to have 20 minutes to sit.
You can just sit for fiveminutes.
Just be with yourself,especially when you're coming
from one event to the other,especially if you're going home
and you're driving, you're inthe driveway and you're about to
go into your house to do yourmost important work.
It's really important either tosit in the car and relax a
little bit or to say, honey, orkids, give me five minutes and

(01:32:31):
go and recollect, arrive.
And these are little things thatwe can do during the day and
then read literature, listen toliterature, listen to the
teachings, understand, and keep,you know, you can have the one
book and just could be Zen Mind,beginner's mind.
You just keep reading it, youkeep contemplating, reflecting
on what the teachings are.

(01:32:52):
You know, one of the lines inthat Zen Mind Beginner's mind
was huge for me.
We find perfection throughimperfection.
And so you find the literature.
It could be the Bible, don'tcare.
Wisdom literature, whatever itis, we read it because what we

(01:33:13):
ingest is what we become.
So what we take in through thesense doors has an impact on who
we are.
But the main thing is the mind.
If the mind is right, everythingelse is right.
So if you go to meditate andyour mind is funky, you have a
funky meditation.
I'm just saying.
It's just the way it is.

(01:33:34):
And then you're gonna say, Well,I ain't doing this shit.
This shit is too hard.
And you say, why do people quit?
Well, you asked them.
They say, Yeah, well, I wassitting there, my mind was all
over the place.
I can't do it.
Well, no, dude, you were doingit.
But you have these notions aboutwhat should be happening rather
than, and so we have to makethat clear.
Say, hey, by the way, when yougo in there, you're gonna see

(01:33:55):
this crazy, crazy ass man,that's you or woman, that's you,
but that's normal.
That's normal.
You know, you have to understandthat you have to see your mind
is out of control before you canstart to control it.
So we have to be really honestabout what we're getting into.
Don't, you know, when I firstcame around, it was Zen this,
Zen that.
Whoa, what the hell did thatmean?

(01:34:17):
It was a catchphrase.
Well, you know that zen stuff.
But it's being in theneighborhood is not good enough.
You gotta be at the right house,on the right floor, in the right
apartment.
So we start to understand that.
So we see that.
But to me, you can see likeLarry, my teacher, he's a funny
dude.
He laugh, you know, it's humor.
I use humor, that's what I do,you know.
So I tell people, you know, Ilaugh at my own joke, so don't

(01:34:39):
get upset.
You don't have to get the joke,I'm gonna laugh at anybody
because it's funny.
So you get what I'm saying?
So it's it's really about to me,and that's the thing, because
when I first came around, Ithought you had to be like
somber and you know, be, youknow, pious, and you know,
that's a bunch of bull.
I ain't got nothing to do withme.

(01:35:00):
Like me, man, I'm fired up readyto go.
This is how I'm rolling.
Let's go.
I'm being real, I'm lettingletting that letting that
masterpiece speak for itselfinstead of coming in there, oh,
indubitably, you know,interesting.
I just say it, you know, andthat's what it's about.
It's like if it's not fun and ifit's not something that's gonna

(01:35:22):
grow, you know, because it'sinteresting.
And maybe I'll just say this.
So Eric Frome wrote a bookcalled The Out of Loving.
Some of you folks might know.
And he talks about love is averb.
It ain't some feeling, oh yeah,and shit's gonna happen by
itself.
You have to be productive.
So you have to, so self-love.
I have to know myself, and thenI have to care for myself, and I

(01:35:45):
have to respect myself, and Ihave to respond to my needs.
So if I don't have theknowledge, I don't know how to
care or respond to myself, butrespect myself as I am.
So let myself express itselfwithout me having to be what the
world wants me to be or thinks Ican be.

(01:36:06):
And when I do that, whatever Ilove, it grows.
So it's productive.
So we start with the self andthen we start with others.
So we have a loved one, theyhave needs and they don't
express it, but I I my brotherone, or you know, I am my
brother's keeper, if you comefrom the Bible.
It's like so I I can respond totheir needs.

(01:36:31):
And hopefully they they can do,but I have to see them as they
are, not as I want them to be.
And if I am love them and if I'mhelping them grow, if they grow
away from me, then that's justthe way it is.
But for me to try to not respectwho they are or see them for who
they are and let them grow asthey're supposed to be, and this
is probably more applicable tokids.

(01:36:51):
Because you all got kids, youknow, it's like this one's
different, that one.
The power is like, well, that'sa challenging job because how do
I, I want to give them freedom,but I don't know if they can
handle it.
So it's this whole thing, youknow, yeah, okay, I grew up in
the suburbs.
I want to take them to visittheir cousins in the hood, but I
don't know.
I don't want to come backsmoking weed.
You know, or maybe they maybethey made the kids in the hood

(01:37:14):
smoke weed because they smokeweed where they are, whatever it
is.
You get what I'm saying.
But but it's it's it's like wehad to figure that out.
And so there's that that trustagain, it's that being in
discomfort again, but it's alsoabout being real.
It's also about know the truth,and the truth shall make you
free.

(01:37:35):
So it's inconvenient to know thetruth, but without the truth,
you're not gonna get to it.
If I didn't say I got a problemwith drugs and alcohol, I I
can't get clean.

SPEAKER_03 (01:37:51):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think a lot of us asmindfulness teachers also have
these preconceived notions ofwhat a mindfulness teacher is,
and we try to be like, you know,the teachers we had, or you
know, we try to fit the mold ofyou know who's famous or who has

(01:38:12):
the mo biggest following, or youknow, who has the best selling
book.
And yeah, and you know, andmindfulness increases
self-awareness, and we you know,take inventory.
Like what is challenging for us,what makes us alive, what brings
us joy, what what's difficultfor us?
You know, who do we really wannaserve?

(01:38:34):
How do I want to be as amindfulness teacher?
And so, you know, sometimeslimiting beliefs are s sort of
self-imposed based on thesecaricatures of you know who we
think we need to be or who wethink society wants us to be.

(01:38:58):
And, you know, George, I justreally appreciate your humor,
you know, uh you know, a lot ofyour off-the-cuff reflections.
You know, you certainly have aunique voice.
And you know, we had SpringWasham here a few months ago on
how to find your voice as amindfulness teacher, and she

(01:39:21):
gave some nuggets of wisdom too.
I'm curious in your ownexperience, like how did you
find like George Mumford?
Did you maybe try to sound likesomeone else in the beginning?
Did you feel more comfortableover time?
Like what supported you and yourself-expression of who you

(01:39:42):
really are as a mindfulnessteacher?

SPEAKER_04 (01:39:45):
Yes.
So it's interesting, I don'tknow.
Back in, let me see, when I whenI moved to Newton in 19, I think
it was maybe it was 87 or 88,maybe it was 88, remember.
But I moved into Newton and andJoseph Campbell, The Power of

(01:40:06):
Myth, was on.
He kept talking about followyour bliss, follow your bliss.
And I was watching his program,and I ended up quitting my job
shortly after that.
And so it was no coincidence.
But it's a lot of the stuff Ilearned in Sunday school, and
I'll I'm gonna be honest.

(01:40:26):
I went to I had to go to summersSunday school every Sunday until
I was 14, because my family wasChristian Baptist, and they
thought I should go to church.
But after that I stopped going.
But there's a lot of stuff Ilearned when I was there, like
be still and know, just sit andjust observe, you know, like
Yogi Barrett.
You can see a lot just byobserving and starting to Jack

(01:40:49):
Quinnford talks about follow thepath of heart.
I start just listening to myselfand letting myself speak and get
clear about what my inclinationsare, what's my most heartfelt
desire or desires at that timeand just really listening and
just watching myself.
And like you said, these peoplethat I want to emulate.
So even when you play music,like I played guitar, I played

(01:41:13):
Jimi Hendrix, I play somebodyelse.
But at some point, I'm gonnastart playing my own music.
But I have to emulate, that'swhat we do, trial and error.
We emulate somebody, and or youknow, I might, you know, if you
look at my teachings, you'll seeJohn Capazin, you'll see Larry
Rosenberg, you'll see a littlebit of Jack Cornfield, Joseph
Goldstein, all of my teachers,you'll see a little bit of that.

(01:41:33):
But then at some point, I juststarted being me.
And so it's a process.
I don't know how long it takes,and I'm still evolving, so I
can't even really, really saythat.
But I do know that if I be stilland know and listen to myself,
and I read a book called LetYour Life Speak.
And I think that's a big part ofit, is just really getting my

(01:41:57):
mind right or just aligningmyself with divinity, like love.
And then I start to notice morethings and then observing
myself, and I start to see,okay, I'm feel I'm feeling more
like myself.
I feel more alive, I feel moreof this, but it's having the
courage because when I wasraised, if I spoke up, I got
beat up.

(01:42:18):
So it was a little bit morechallenging for me.
But at some point, I got to thepoint where I said, okay, yeah,
this is what I want to do.
So I was a financial analyst uhwhen I was in recovery.
And then after two years ofrecovery, I left and went to
another job.
And then I started to realizethat, well, you know, I'm

(01:42:38):
analyzing things.
I like working with people.
I want to be able to use mymeditation and my tai chi and my
yoga practices, my spirituallife.
I wanted that to be part of mywork life.
I didn't want to have thisMonday to Friday doing things
and then living for the weekend,you know, because, you know,

(01:42:59):
five sevenths of my life wasdoing something that I wasn't
really that interested in versusthe weekend where I was really
doing.
Then when I went back to schoolafter 13 years, I went back for
something I wanted to do.
And it totally was a tremendousexperience doing what I love to
do and seeking what I wanted toseek.
And so, yeah, so it that's whatI mean.

(01:43:20):
We all have a masterpieceinside, we all have this
uniqueness.
And, you know, the idea is tohelp us find that and to start
to tease out, you know, who weare.
And sometimes we know who we areby what we're most interested
in.
And so, but that's uh, you know,but I think it's fascinating.

(01:43:42):
And and when we can become, whenI can become more myself, I have
more excitement.
I more, feel more alive.
But there's a level, I just wantto say something because I it
sounds easy.
So I want to show you thisquarter.
So that's heads.
That's my potential.
The other side is is tails,that's anxiety.

(01:44:08):
This existential philosophersaid that he calls it the the
alarming possibility of beingable.
Because he says, freedom andanxiety are two is one coin, you
know, each side of a coin.
So to the degree that we webecome ourselves and become more
self-reliant or moreself-expressive, there's gonna

(01:44:31):
be some pushback, not just outthere, but in here.
And it's uncertainty becausewe've never been there before.
So we have to live into it.
We have to, you know, ease intoit.
And so that's a, you know, Ifeel like most of my
transformation, I spend most ofmy time in the in the stages of
grief because I'm I'm growing.

(01:44:52):
I'm growing.
I'm going through bargaining,anger, depression, all of those
five stages.
Because I'm I'm moving, I'mchanging, I'm becoming something
else.
That's the thing people don'tunderstand.
When I stopped using drugs andstarted, I mean, you go through
a you go through a grievingprocess.
You know, it's painful.
There's a lot of depression thatcomes up from letting go and and

(01:45:16):
and just really, yeah.
So it's like I guess a snakesheds a skin.
I don't know what we do, but itis awful.
It's not helpful.
I mean, in the sense that it'sunpleasant, but it's part of the
process.
Once I get comfortable with it,I say, oh, this is what happens.
Okay, I'm cool.
I'm good.

(01:45:36):
But I read and read my journaland said, man, I'm going through
another freaking growth spurt.
I hated them damn growth spurts.
On one level, on another level,I like it.
But on another level, it's like,man, uh, you know, can I do this
without that?
You know, I can we need the painout of it.

(01:45:56):
But that's the way it is.
And then I get comfortable withit, get comfortable with it.
Then it becomes okay.
It's okay.
This is just what it is, andit's my relationship to it.
That's the issue, not it.
And so just learning, having alittle bit more freedom, but
understanding I can getcomfortable with not knowing.

(01:46:16):
And just trusting that no matterwhat happens in that space
between stomachs and response, Iget to choose.
And when I choose wrongly orunwisely, I can redo it.
I can learn from it.
Like I said, that's too damnsimple.
I was expecting something waymore complicated.
But no, dude, just just justshow up and just do the best you

(01:46:40):
can, and that's enough.
Today, and you learn from it.
But the growth mindset, thisidea that I'm evolving and that
I have a masterpiece within,that's huge.
I have Buddha nature, Christconsciousness, Kwanyan energy,
divine spark, whatever resonateswith you, we have it.
And it's but it's encrusted in ashell.

(01:47:01):
We're hiding out.
So how do we chip away just likethe crystallist?
And it's the chipping away, it'sthe breaking out that gives us
the strength to fly.
So I like to say, no struggle,no swag.
And you all know what swag is.
Swag is, but yeah, we're bad.

(01:47:22):
It's like that movie withRichard Pryor and uh Gene
Wilder.
Yeah, we're bad.
They're walking.
That's swag.
Or you see Michael Jordanwalking down the court, you
know, you see him walking,chewing gum.
That's swag.
Swag, no struggle, no swag.
You don't just say, oh, I wantsome swag.
No, you gotta earn that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:47:44):
What was the other uh line you had?
No, no chilling, no winning.

SPEAKER_04 (01:47:49):
If you if if you're chilling, you ain't willing.
You gotta be chilling andwilling.
But yeah, so that's what I mean.
My student last week, they teachme a lot.
My students I work with, if youwant to learn something, you
teach them.
They teach me so much.
You just gotta listen and watchthem.

SPEAKER_03 (01:48:10):
Yeah, you know, and and and being in prisons, you
know, retreat centers, corporateboardrooms.
You know I'm guessing you've hadyour fair share of fear of
judgment from others.
Maria has this comment of, youknow, it's hard not to think of

(01:48:31):
what others will think of you,especially as you're bringing
your full self to the table.
And I know we're coming close ontime, and I want to make sure to
let people know how they canfind you and your courses and
everything like that.

SPEAKER_04 (01:48:47):
But yeah, so George at George, well, my website is
georgeumumfitt.com, and I put itin there.
If you want to contact me, youcan you can email connect at
george mumfit.com.
And I mean, if you Google myname, a whole lot of free stuff
will come up.

(01:49:08):
And I have a I have a YouTubechannel, George Mumfit, where I
do what I call being at homewith George during COVID.
So there's a bunch of videosthere.
But the website, you can checkour stuff, and we just open a
cart for the mindful athletecourse online.
And what we tend to do there, wejust finished in about three
weeks ago.

(01:49:29):
It was, was it November 19th,Rock?
Was that the last class?
I think so.
And so we have these during theyear, several times we have
six-week study groups where forsix weeks we get on the call
once a week and we go over thehome practice.
But there's seven modules andsix modules, seven modules, I
think.
And you go through the modules.

(01:49:50):
Well, I forget how many moduleswe have.
I think we have the fivesuperpowers, then we have the
intro and the, yeah, so we haveseven modules.
But now we have, we have, we'vedone that twice.
So whoever joins the course,they'll get, they'll get those,
you know, access to 12 weeks ofthe study group.

(01:50:13):
And then I think we have, Ibelieve we have every quarterly,
I get on a call and we have a QAor whatever.
And when's the next one, Rock?
Is it December or did we sayJanuary?
December 22nd.
December 22nd.
So if you join the course,you'll have access to that.
But the modules are, you know,is videos and recordings, and

(01:50:35):
and so you can do an independentstudy, but when we're doing it
together, it's we'll do that acouple of times a year.
And once you join your lifetimemember, so you can, you know, so
there's there's a bunch of thatstuff.
Yeah.
So I think that's it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:50:49):
Great.
And I'll have a recording ofthis whole session in the
members area, and I'll postlinks to all of your offerings,
including your YouTube channeland course registration page for
all the members and share thatvia email to all of our members
as well.

SPEAKER_04 (01:51:06):
Yeah, and I and I we can talk about it, but usually
when I when I do something, ifpeople from here would like to
sign up for the course, we'llfigure out how to give them a
discount.

SPEAKER_03 (01:51:16):
That's that's very generous of you.
Thank you.
And and you've already, youknow, shared so much with us
already.
George, thank you so much forcoming today.
Rocky, thank you for helping toset that this up for us.
But it was a real treat to getsort of an insider scoop on your
practice, your some of yourteachings, some of your thought

(01:51:38):
processes behind yourself as amindfulness teacher and trainer.
Looking forward to seeing yournew book come out next year.
But thank you so much for yourtime today.
I know you know, as mindfulnessteachers were making an impact
on the world and kind of havingthis ripple effect,

(01:52:01):
consciousness in these wideningcircles, as Joanna Macy puts it.
And I just really appreciateyour intention for wanting to
help people, you know, live withmore mindfulness, more peace,
more presence, more heart,follow the five superpowers, and

(01:52:22):
you know, and I know you have agenerous heart.
I I uh you know, a few years agoI was speaking with the Golden
State Warriors about possiblyworking with them.
So I emailed George out of theblue, like, hey, George, could
you help me?
And George called me up fiveminutes later after my email
saying, Yeah, I'd be happy tosupport you.
And I just never forget thatgenerous spirit that you have.

(01:52:47):
Yeah.
I I really feel you're you'rethe heart of your practice.
So let us know how we canfurther support you.
Uh but really appreciate yourtime today, George.
Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 (01:52:59):
Thank you.
I want to thank you all forbeing here, and and I love you
all.
And we need, we need the world,it needs you to be you and and
needs you to be able to createthat ripple if that's what you
want to do.
So I'm I'm excited, had a lot offun today.
So this is this is awesome.
And Sean, I mean, it's funny,Sean reminded me a lot of times

(01:53:21):
I help people and I forget who Ihelp.
I mean, I had this young manthat I was working with when he
was in college, and now he'splaying for NFL football team,
and he reached out to me and Isaid, Don't I know that name?
And I I had been kind of uhhelping him along through when
he was in college.
So I kind of forget.
So Sean had to remind me becauseI forget, because I just, I just

(01:53:44):
I want to encourage, I want tosupport everybody.
And so the idea is to begenerous because in order to to
keep something, you gotta giveit away.
That's not why I give it away,but it's amazing what happens
when you are generous.
It it comes back to you.
So thank you all.
Appreciate you all.
And thanks, Sean, for invitingme.

(01:54:05):
Absolutely.
All right, man, we'll keep itgoing, man.
You know I got your back, right?
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 (01:54:12):
Thank you so much, George.
Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 (01:54:15):
All right, thank you.
Bye now.

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