March 14, 2025 • 44 mins
What does it mean to cultivate inner peace, resilience, and wisdom in the modern world? How can we apply the teachings of monastic life to our daily struggles?
In this episode of the Mindfulness Exercises Podcast, Sean Fargo sits down with Stephen Schettini, known as The Inner Monk—a former Buddhist monk who spent eight years studying Buddhist philosophy, psychology, and debate across Asia and Europe. Now a mindfulness coach, author, and speaker, Stephen shares his journey of transitioning from monastic life to everyday reality, and how he continues to help others integrate mindfulness into their daily lives.
Together, they explore:
✔ The power of mindfulness beyond religious traditions
✔ The challenges of leaving monastic life and rediscovering identity
✔ How to apply mindfulness in a fast-paced, secular world
✔ Why embracing imperfection is key to deepening mindfulness
✔ The role of self-compassion in transforming personal struggles
Stephen’s story is one of courage, transformation, and deep commitment to mindfulness—showing us that no matter our background, we all have the capacity to cultivate an inner sanctuary of peace and clarity.
🌿 Tune in to hear how you can bring the wisdom of the “Inner Monk” into your everyday life.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Alright, welcome everyone to the Mindfulness
Exercises podcast.
My name is Sean Fargo.
Today I have the honor ofspeaking with Stephen Scatini,
known as the Inner Monk.
As you may have guessed, he wasa former Buddhist monk like
myself, and he turned into amindfulness coach and author.
(00:21):
After spending eight yearsstudying Buddhist philosophy and
psychology and debate in Asiaand in Europe, Scatini
transitioned to secular life,becoming a husband and a father
like myself, and he's also aprofessional in writing, design,
and typographic design.
(00:42):
In 2003, Stephen founded QuietMind Seminars with his wife
Caroline.
And in the pandemic, in about2020, he morphed that into what
is now his ongoing servicecalled Mindfulness Live.
He successfully detachesmeditative practices from their
(01:04):
religious trappings usingscientific language to address
today's fast paced secularlifestyle.
Stephen's books include TheNovice, which is a memoir of his
monastic years.
And also it begins with silence,a secular guide to Buddhist
(01:27):
teachings.
He hosts regular onlinemindfulness sessions, he offers
personal guided meditationservices, and conducts regular
mindfulness workshops andseminars.
Through his brand, The InnerMonk, Stephen Scottini empowers
individuals to reduce stress,improve focus, enhance their
(01:51):
relationships, and cultivateemotional intelligence.
Stephen, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Thanks for having me, Sean.
It's a pleasure to be.
SPEAKER_01 (02:00):
Yeah, it's an honor to meet you.
It sounds like we have someoverlap in terms of our
background.
We were both monks for a while.
Now we're mindfulness coachesand teachers wanting to help
people in kind of a secular wayin this modern world.
Not too many of us out there, soit's nice to connect with you.
(02:22):
I love your brand, the innermonk.
That's really cool.
Stephen, I'd love to start justkind of learning a little bit
about your story and yourjourney.
And can you talk about yourfirst encounters with
mindfulness or meditation and uhwhat inspired you to begin
practicing?
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
I wanted to control my mind.
It's driving me crazy.
I didn't know I had attentiondeficit when I was a kid.
People didn't use that phrase,but I did, and I had all sorts
of problems, and and peoplelooked at me as a problematic
kid.
And so I was angry and uhfrustrated and distracted all
(03:02):
the time.
And I I was a teenager when Irealized I had to do something
about this.
And it was the 60s, it was um itwas the time of uh you know the
Beatles and meditation and allthat.
And I used to put on a RaviShankar album and I'd lie on the
bed with my eyes closed andimagine it was floating through
the universe, you know.
So that that was the beginning.
(03:23):
Over the years I kept readingand learning, and uh it was a
long process.
Eventually um it became a reallypowerful drive.
After four years of university,I dropped out because I just
couldn't face that sort ofcontinual life that I was I was
on track to become justsomething I I didn't want to be
(03:46):
and I didn't understand, and Iand I felt compelled to really
uh find myself.
I uh I had one advantage, whichwas my parents were both from
the circus, and they had bothdone what they really loved to
do when they were young.
So I grew up with this idea thatuh I could do whatever I wanted
with my life.
So it wasn't hard for me to giveeverything up and uh went out to
(04:09):
India and uh joined theTibetans.
Very different from the Thaitradition that you were in.
This is much more colourful,it's it's much more Catholic
tradition, in many ways muchmore challenging.
I stayed with them for eightyears, and in the last year or
two I started uh exploringTheravada Buddhism, Southern
Buddhism.
(04:29):
That was part of the reason thatI left.
I I felt much more at home withthat uh very human Buddha, as
opposed to the Tibetan Buddha isyou know, sort of a well, what
would you call him?
Supernatural, uh superhero,certainly not human, not someone
I could relate to.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
Yeah, maybe more of like a religious yeah, much more
so.
You had parents in the circus.
You're in were you would you saythat you're inspired by the
Beatles in terms of their uhforay into meditation and being
inspired by what's what's in themind and how to cultivate the
(05:07):
mind?
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Yeah, I I don't think they caused that
fascination.
I was raised as a Catholic in avery old-fashioned and very
dogmatic way.
And I I did reject the beliefs,and I I had to walk away from
the whole church.
But one thing remained in mylife, in my mind, which is that
I I did need something.
That's what kept me going.
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
Why did you actually go to Asia?
Like, did you hear about the themonks in India?
Or um, did you know you weregoing to Asia to to learn from
monastics?
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
I was traveling.
I just put out my thumb and Istarted traveling, and my uh
whole my hope was to find, Isuppose, a mentor.
That's what I was looking for.
I was looking for some guidancein my life.
And as I was, I I'd already readquite a lot about Buddhism, and
I was certainly inclined towardsit, but I wasn't looking
(06:03):
specifically for that.
That just happened to play outthat way.
I came out of a period ofintense uh uh drug use uh in
Pakistan, and I landed in Indiauh in Dharamsala, and the
Tibetans were very welcoming.
I was at a very low point in mylife, I was in need of comfort
(06:24):
and belonging, and that'sexactly what they offered.
And they took me incrediblygenerous with their time and
their teaching, and it was awonderful experience.
But in the end, I had to admitit wasn't for me.
I wasn't made I was trained tobe a teacher, but it was made
clear that I should be teachingTibetan Buddhism, Tibetan style.
(06:45):
I realized that that would notgo down with a very wide
audience in the West, and thatthese were the people I wanted
to I want to teach my peers.
So I left and I found my ownway.
All my friends found teachingcareers within different
Buddhist institutions and groupsand so on, and uh and I didn't
do that.
I walked right away from that,so it was a long and hard road,
but uh it certainly left me in avery independent place.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
It uh sounds similar to my story in the sense that my
first year as a monk, themonastery where I lived was
training me to be a teacher fortheir own specific style that
was quite well, it it kind ofraised a lot of eyebrows in the
West, and I did not want to comeback to the United States to see
(07:31):
my family and friends teachingsomething that was quite
bizarre, very belief-based,dogmatic.
Um, I felt like I would uh bedisconnected from from my loved
ones and maybe a sense ofreality, and uh knew that I had
to find something a little bitmore say secular, grounded in
(07:54):
common sense, something thatcould make sense to the average
person.
So I think we share similarstories.
I then found the Thai foresttradition, which I think much
better fit the bill for me inthe sense that their teachings
are um more inquisitive, just becurious about your own
(08:16):
awareness, your own experience,find your own insights, and that
I could uh practice and sharewith others much more easily.
So anyway, resonate with thatpart of your story very much.
Can you share what were some ofthe first practices that you
found that um resonated with youthat you felt separate from the
(08:40):
dogma or theology?
What practices did you find mostuseful in the early years of
your practice?
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Uh death meditation.
Over the years, all the I'vestudied a lot of philosophy,
some of it's very complicatedand language and all this stuff.
But I over the years I've justI've realized that the difficult
thing about mindfulness isdoing, just doing it on a
regular basis, really committingto it, you know, doing it
whether it's a good day or a badday.
(09:09):
And uh that that's the hardpart.
There is no better motive, andthere is I mean, it is the real
motive.
I mean, the reason we're doingall of this is to is to face our
own mortality, face our ourlife.
So when you realize, or thenlet's put it this way, the more
you realize how close deathreally is and how easy it is and
(09:32):
how uncertain it is, the moreyour life comes into focus.
It really does.
So in the Tibetan tradition,that they make it very clear at
the beginning, at the outset,that you know there are two
types of meditation, there'sconcentrated meditation and
there's contemplative.
So the contemplative was fromthe very beginning made and into
a big deal, which I'd alwaysthought was no, meditation is
all about going in and innerpeace and being completely shut
(09:55):
off from the world around youand perfectly blissful.
So I'm glad that that I was soonabused or disabused of that
idea.
But the death meditation thatreally works, still does.
SPEAKER_01 (10:06):
Yeah, and and can you break that down in in terms
of a practice?
Do you is it just a merereminder that death is could be
here at any moment, or is therea step-by-step practice that you
do?
SPEAKER_00 (10:20):
Well, both.
I mean, when it comes into yourmind, that you know, to not
dismiss it is already a bigdeal.
So to realize, yes, you know, itis gonna happen.
But then you can go through itmethodically.
Imagine you're lying on yourbed, you're dying, you're
breathing your last breath, theair's coming out and it's not
gonna go back in.
It's you can make it very vivid,it's not difficult.
(10:41):
The funny thing is that it's notscary.
And that's that's the greatestlesson, perhaps of all, is that
uh because we avoid facing ourfears and our our anxieties
because God, I don't want toface it.
And yet when you do, when youactually turn to face it, it
becomes manageable in a way thatyou didn't expect.
(11:01):
Yeah, doing it in thatexperiential way, as an idea,
yes, has a certain effect, butwhen you really imagine it and
you put yourself in that and youand you're bringing not just
your your frontal cortex, butyour whole body and emotional
being into that experience, thenyeah, it it changes the way you
think, changes the way you feel,changes your priorities.
(11:24):
Yeah, priorities are a big dealwhen you're when you're living
in a consumer society.
It's a constant effort.
We're always trying to be moreor be something else.
SPEAKER_01 (11:33):
Yeah, you said for you it it put your life into
greater uh say focus.
How has it changed yourpriorities?
And do you share uh say deathmeditation or or death awareness
or marana sati with otherpeople?
And how do you see it affectthem?
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Some people are scared of it.
Most people do get into it.
They're very, you know, they'rea bit nervous because they
thought they didn't think theywere coming for that sometimes.
But on the whole, peopleappreciate it and and they
start, it takes time to realizehow it can affect you.
But it is a big part of whatwe're doing.
(12:14):
I mean, the very first step ofthe Eightfold Path is uh
outlook, is your mindset.
And that's exactly what thisworks on.
It it points you in thedirection of I want to bring
purpose to my life, I want tomake this life meaningful.
It's short, it's brief.
I'm gonna do it now.
I'm gonna engage.
(12:34):
What do I do?
And of course, then that's thehard part.
What do I do?
But you find out for yourself,that's the important part too.
A big part of what I teach andand what I write about is the
whole concept of belief.
And many people, for mostpeople, religion is that's what
it's all about.
If you believe, you're okay.
What I learned from the Buddhais that believing isn't enough.
(12:57):
You have to do.
So whatever helps you get awayfrom the theory and actually
enact what you're talking about,really get to know yourself,
accept yourself.
It's not easy, it's hard, it'sit's it's an emotional
challenge, but it's possible.
And that's that's the goal.
SPEAKER_01 (13:15):
And so you talk a lot about the inner monk.
Do you believe that we all havean inner monk?
And what is the inner monk?
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
Well, we can have it.
It's a place where we feel safewith ourselves, where we respect
ourselves, you know, instead of,oh, Stephen, you're so stupid.
Why did you do that?
It's it's a you know, it's it'sa recognition that we treat
ourselves badly sometimes, butum ultimately we're we
potentially we can be our ownbest friends.
(13:44):
And that's where the inner monkis.
That's what the inner monk is.
It's that place you can go toinside yourself, which is home,
where there's no judgment, whereyou can really let go of your
expectations, and you can seewhat's actually going on in your
body, in your feelings, and inyour thoughts, and in the world
around you.
There's no inner peace withoutouter peace as well.
(14:05):
So it's it's you know, it'sthere's a big picture here.
Meditation is not just private,individualized, but it does
start by making friends withyourself, and that's a biggie.
People have difficulty withthat.
I had difficulty with that.
And now with social media thesedays, there's a there's a it's
it's an epidemic of lowself-esteem because everyone's
(14:26):
comparing themselves more thanever with not even with people,
with imaginary profiles, youknow, made up ideas of what a
successful human life is like.
So um overcoming that is reallyhard because that's the world we
live in.
So you have to develop thatinner monk.
You have to develop someintegrity in yourself.
(14:49):
I don't mean just moralintegrity, but I mean functional
integrity, where you really knowwho you are, how you're being,
how you react, what to watch outfor, all of that stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (15:00):
Yeah, you uh said something perked up my ears that
I've been playing a with a lotlately, which is a sense of
safety and how to feel safe withourselves, how to find refuge
with ourselves, and how to befriends with ourselves.
What are some of the first fewsteps or recommendations that
(15:24):
you have for people forcultivating a sense of safety
with themselves?
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Well, the first thing is to like yourself, which
is harder than it sounds, ormore unusual than it sounds at
any rate.
And there's a practice that thatI do, uh and it's good for
journaling, called I Like BeingMe.
Do something and look at it andsay, well, that was good.
I like that.
I'm glad I did that.
I'm I like being me.
(15:50):
We're wired to give moreattention to danger for obvious
reasons, because you know,danger is it's gonna cut our
life off, then everything elseis irrelevant.
So we tend to look more towardsnegativity.
We see ourselves in negativeways much more easily than we do
positive ways.
And so it goes against thegrain.
It takes a special effort.
(16:10):
And effort, you see, there'sanother aspect of the Eightfold
Path, which which you need tocultivate.
It doesn't just happen byitself.
People ask me sometimes, so um,when does mindfulness get to
that point where it's automatic?
Of course, the whole point isthat it's not automatic.
That's what mindfulness isabout.
So we keep falling back intothat, you know, and we keep
(16:33):
falling back into the oh, I I Imessed up, I'm so stupid.
So it's very, very important tomake a formal practice each day.
If you're doing breathawareness, if you're doing uh
mantra meditation, whatever, youshould also do I like being me
meditation.
At least find something in thecourse of the day which makes
(16:54):
you think, I like that, that'sgood.
I'm not such a bad guy afterall.
SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
Yeah, when we think about, you know, why we're
friends with other people, it'sbecause we like different things
about them.
And so it makes sense that, youknow, it would be important for
us to find, you know, as manythings as possible about
ourselves that we like and toactually cultivate that likeness
for ourselves.
(17:20):
Uh yeah, and I think journalingis a wonderful way to do that,
keeps us kind of focused on it,and we can find creative ways of
bringing awareness to ourselvesand putting it down on paper.
That's a that's a greatrecommendation.
And for those of you listening,you know, what do you like about
yourself?
How much do you like aboutyourself?
(17:41):
And how would it feel if youliked 10% more of yourself?
You know, can you cultivate thisability just to be with yourself
in a way that's safe orcomfortable?
I think it's really, reallypowerful and can encourage us
just to be more, just to be withourselves and just kind of
(18:03):
sitting and sensing.
SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
One of the things that really um crystallized my
practice after I left monasticlife was because I studied with
the Tibetans who very rarelyactually study the Buddha.
Well, look, there's 20, 2600years of study and scholarship,
and they focus mostly on that,the interpretations of the
(18:26):
Buddha.
But when I went back to the tothe uh the Pali Canon, to the
original of the earliest texts,I realized something, I I found
something which really made alot of sense to me.
That the entry to the path, youenter the path when you become
independent of teachers anddoctrine.
And that was a big eye opener.
(18:48):
Because that means, well, doesthat mean I I should not be a
Buddhist?
Is that what the Buddha'stelling me?
Yeah, it's belief, again, beliefis just not enough.
You've got to, it's it's got tobe in your own mental continuum,
it's got to be part of your ownexperience if it's gonna
transform you in any way at all.
And that depends on believing inyourself, on trusting your own
(19:10):
ability to know and moveforward.
Doesn't mean you're alwaysright.
You trust in your ability tolearn as you move forward.
It's a path of trial and error.
And of course, when you firststart, when you first encounter
the Buddhist teachings, my God,they're so well organized, and
you've got lists and numbers andhundreds, and it looks like a
pristine, you know, and then yougo and sit and meditate, and all
(19:31):
you find is chaos.
So it's there's a big contrasthere.
So it takes it it's that senseof befriending yourself, being
comfortable in your skin asyou're doing this, and relying
on yourself.
That's really what we're lookingfor.
Once you can do that, then thenyou start to have a solid
practice.
SPEAKER_01 (19:51):
Yeah, there's nothing, say, external that's
gonna save you.
Yeah, and um, especially in theTheravada tradition, there's a
lot of emphasis on say streamentry or this first part of
awakening.
One of the milestones, if youwill, is uh that you've given
(20:13):
up, you're clinging to what theycall rites and rituals, which is
basically what you said, thatit's not about, you know, all
these say beliefs or about howmany times you you bow to a
statue or say ceremonies.
(20:35):
It's not about any of thosethings, these trappings, if you
will, which when I became amonk, I got really excited about
all these new rituals and chantsand you know, wearing my robes a
certain way.
And, you know, I felt like if Idid all these things, I'm gonna
be a better monk and a betterperson, and it's gonna put me on
(20:59):
a fast track to enlightenment.
And, you know, there's nothingwrong with any of those things,
but really what's more importantis our heart.
You know, are we grounded?
Are we paying attention,adhering to our priorities?
Are we treating ourselves andothers well?
(21:19):
There's elements of theEightfold Path just around right
livelihood and right effort andethics that are so foundational.
And it's about the practice ofpresence rather than you know
succumbing to the trappings of,say, religious procedures.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
To go back to your your idea of safety, it's about
where we're looking for oursafety.
Are we looking for it outside orinside?
In Buddhism, we talk veryplainly about refuge.
You take refuge in the Buddhaand the Dhamma and the Sangha,
which all sound like they're outthere, but they're really not,
especially Dharma.
At the end of his life, theysaid, What are we gonna do?
And he said, You rely on yourpractice, you rely on your
(21:57):
Dharma.
Who's gonna lead us?
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yeah, be a lamp unto yourself.
And you know, we all have aninner monk, we all have an inner
Buddha, you know, the practiceis within, and that sense of
connection with others is soimportant, but you know, we can
be around others physically andstill feel alone.
And we can be alone and feelsuper connected with anyone,
(22:24):
everyone, all beings,everywhere.
So it really does start within.
I'm wondering, you know, how howdoes your past identity as a
Buddhist monk shape the way thatyou teach and connect to people
now?
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
Gosh, what a big question.
I gave back my robes, as theysay, but my teacher just looked
at me and he said, he said, youknow what?
Once a monk, always a monk.
And it sort of stuck with me.
I don't really I know you work alot in business with business
people and and uh corporatesettings.
And uh I never did that.
(23:03):
I I worked for one year in acorporate job and that's all I
could do.
I've always been uh independent,I've always been, I've never
really worried very much aboutmoney.
Uh some people say I should haveworried more, but I've been
okay, I've survived.
So I yeah, so in that way, beingnot really uh on the same page
(23:23):
as most working people, uh Ifeel a little bit different, you
know, and I feel maybe I'm toodifferent that that my life made
me sometimes I feel, oh, it'sjust too weird.
And that's certainly the waypeople have treated me in the
past.
When I first came out of themonastery in 1982, the first
thing I learned was to not talkabout it, because people just
thought it was too weird.
And then in the 90s, that wholeattitude began to change, and
(23:47):
people used to say, Oh, really?
You were a monk?
That's so interesting.
So there was a social change,there is a social change going
on, and I began to see thatthen.
So then it left me a little morefree to uh expose myself as a
monk.
In fact, I called my first blogwas The Naked Monk, which was
about trying to pursue thatambition, that monkish ambition,
(24:08):
um, but without the trappings,without the robes and the llamas
and the you know the bells andthe drums and all of that stuff.
Um how do you actually do this?
So that's what I was exploringin the blog and in my teachings
back then.
I'm very conscious of it.
In a sense, it's an identity.
I mean, in these days when wehave to create an online
(24:29):
identity, yeah, a formerBuddhist monk keeps coming up
again and again and again.
And that's my that's my moniker.
You use it too, it's on yourwebsite.
SPEAKER_01 (24:38):
Yeah, I don't really think of it.
Um but yes, people tend to yeah,I mean, some people like it,
some people don't, but it'sdifferent.
Exactly.
That's the point.
By no means does being aBuddhist monk mean that you're
necessarily wise, but it doespoint to some degree of say
(25:01):
intentionality, some degree ofsincerity, and uh some degree of
uh of practice.
You know, nowadays some peopleordain for like a day in certain
monasteries, and so you know,there's a lot of people now
saying they were a monk, but youknow, maybe they didn't they
(25:22):
didn't last 24 hours, which isfine.
But there are degrees to thesethings um in the sense that some
people were a monk for weeks,months, years, decades, and you
can usually sense the differencein in them just in their quality
of being or their quality ofpresence.
SPEAKER_00 (25:40):
Yeah, I mean, even in the Buddha's time though
there were householders who whodid very well, who became
arhats.
You know, the Buddha was quitehappy to proclaim their
achievements.
And the same today.
You don't have to be a monk.
But if for me, I was verydamaged.
I was emotionally uh needy, Iwas lonely, there was lots of
stuff going on.
But the point is it it was ahealing mechanism for me, very
(26:04):
powerful one, to be in thetradition, to be protected uh
materially as well asspiritually and emotionally by
this community.
So it was it was a terrificexperience for me, and I loved
it.
And I still look back upon itwith a sense of longing,
actually, but at the same timeuh knowing that no, I d and I
wouldn't fit there anymore.
(26:24):
I don't want to fit thereanymore.
That's done.
I mean I'm I'm I'm longing forthat innocence, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
Yeah, is it innocence?
Is it simplicity?
Is it that connection with withother monks?
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Being able to speak to people of like mind is a big
deal.
As I say, when I left themonastery, that was in
Switzerland, and that's when Imoved to North America, uh, and
I literally had no supportsystem here at all.
And uh I soon discovered that noone was interested in what I had
to talk about.
Everything I'd been learning forthe last eight years was
(26:57):
completely irrelevant to theimmediacy of my predicament.
I had no money, I had no jobskills, and I had to get to
work, and that was really hard,leaving the community behind in
that sense.
But then eventually I did buildup a community, starting with my
wife, my present wife, uh, ofpeople that I could talk to
about this stuff.
(27:18):
And I realized what friendshipreally meant to me, what friends
what friendships I reallyvalued, what I needed to
continue my practice.
Um you do need a Sangha.
They don't have to be monks,they don't have to be Buddhists,
they don't have to be anything,but they need to be people you
can speak to on your own terms,who reflect your own values and
(27:42):
who are honest to themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
Yeah, I think at the monastery the community was so
invaluable to me.
I grew up without any brothers,and I'd always wanted brothers.
I had a few friends, but andthey had brothers, and I was
always jealous of them.
And at the monasteries where Iwas I became incredibly close
(28:06):
with a new collection ofbrothers.
They varied in age and race andbackgrounds, but uh we were
incredibly close, and I rememberlaughing with them and you know,
sitting close with them forcountless hours on end and you
know, meditating and practicingand talking.
(28:27):
That sense of brotherhood was souh precious to me.
And you know, after I disrobed,I then worked at Spirit Rock
Meditation Center for five yearsand found, you know, a
wonderful, beautiful Sanghathere, where I was there at
least forty hours a week, but Iended up, you know, spending
(28:50):
quite a few nights therepracticing in the meditation
hall, you know, going early tomeet with others for a hike and
really connecting with thesangha there.
And now with mindfulnessexercises, we have a nice,
wonderful sangha of newmindfulness teacher trainees and
co-teachers, and it's it's a abeautiful connection that we
(29:12):
have.
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
It's necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (29:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
Mindfulness needs support.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:19):
Yeah.
Is it Ananda who asked theBuddha, like, like how much does
Sangha or community or spiritualfriendships, how much of an
impact does that have on our ownpractice?
Is it a part of the path?
And the Buddha said, no, it'snot a part of the path, it's the
whole path, meaning Sangha andcommunity and you know,
(29:43):
spiritual friends are what helpus to grow, sustain our
practice, inspire us.
And if we didn't have acommunity, then and if we're
left to our own devices, it'smuch drier.
It's less sustainable, probablya lot less meaningful.
(30:07):
And so that segues into whatyou're doing now with
Mindfulness Live, where itsounds like you have a growing
community where you meet withpeople on a regular basis and uh
sharing um time with each other.
Can you talk about how you bringthis sense of community into
(30:29):
your teachings now and um howthat's impacted your life?
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
Yeah, well, it's it's wonderful.
I started teaching in Montrealin uh 2003, a series called
Quiet Mind Seminars.
And that went on every year.
I did three or four 10-weeksessions each year, and we'd
have lots of people coming, andum a lot of them liked it.
And at the end of each course,they'd they'd say, So what's
(30:54):
next?
And I'd say, Well, uh, you know,in six weeks we're starting the
next course.
But I realized I felt bad aboutit.
I felt like I was dropping them.
It was it wasn't right.
And then, as I said earlier, Irealized that, you know, what is
the big difficulty withmindfulness is doing it.
You need support.
(31:16):
And I realized, well, most ofthese people who come to my
classes are completely isolated.
They don't know anyone likethis.
Very few people who meditateactually live with another
meditator.
The vast majority, their spouseor you know, the better half is
simply not into it.
And so they don't get that.
Some of us do, we're fortunate,but but many don't.
(31:37):
Putting together a consistent Iwanted to provide support, and I
discussed it with my wife,Caroline.
She's she's a life coach, andwe're very much on the same
page.
We have a lot of, she's beenextremely helpful in what I've
built.
So the idea of continualsupport, three times a week,
it's only half an hour, but it'sit's it's the regularity which
(32:00):
we're looking at.
And so we meet, I've got 41people right now.
Um about 10 people show upregularly, uh, in person.
At least half of those peoplenever show up.
They simply go to the recording,so they're on their own.
But I'm constantly trying tobring them in.
(32:20):
And the ones up front, the oneswho do show, they arrive early,
they stay late, they chat, it'sit's and they get to know each
other.
It's it's really wonderful.
People ask their questions, andsometimes I give an answer,
sometimes they answer eachother.
And it's um it's really lovely.
And and it's empowering.
SPEAKER_01 (32:40):
What uh days of the week and times of day do you
meet?
SPEAKER_00 (32:43):
Uh Monday, Wednesday, Friday, 12 noon to
12:30, Eastern time.
Uh not everyone can make itbecause people are all over the
world, but um, I mean, whatevertime you choose, there's gonna
be some people who can't makeit.
So it's uh and I find that I'vegot a lot of working people who
who come in their lunch hour.
Uh local from Montreal, my myold in-person students.
(33:08):
So um so it's good for them.
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
And do you lead different kinds of meditations
each time?
Do you incorporate heart-basedpractices or mindfulness of
death, or what do you what doyou guide people through?
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
Yeah, we we we we do a different theme each week.
This week uh the theme wasempathy.
There's a little meditation,sometimes it's just very plain
breath awareness, um, andsometimes we go into more
reflective meditation, and thenuh we have 10-minute discourse
where I actually talk about thewhole concept of empathy, how it
relates to compassion, what'sthe difference, what's the
(33:47):
connection, or what are theobstacles.
I I I focus on obstacles a lotbecause you know people like to
be mindful, you know, they theywant to be mindful of the
sunshine and the green grass andthe flowing water, and and you
know, this is what they thinkmindfulness is.
But when I say, well, you know,you can also be mindful of your
own reactivity, and they go,ooh, yeah.
(34:09):
Yeah, but look, you face it, youcan actually change it.
You know, there's there's a bigpayoff here.
And so I I try to ease them intothat, and that that's really, I
mean, that's that's the focus,that's the point, isn't it?
You can actually transformourselves, but not
unconsciously.
You've got to see what'shappening.
So it there's always this focuson what are the obstacles?
(34:31):
Why, why, you know, why do I notwant to sit?
Why do I why do I try and sit myminds everywhere else?
Why why can I not resist UncleJack, who's such a jerk, and he
always makes me explode?
That's the purpose.
That's what we're working on.
We're trying to transform ourbehavior, not just our way of
thinking.
SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
Yeah, mindfulness is not just about you know being
calm all the time.
It's about being more aware of,as you said, our obstacles, our
reactivity, our fears.
Uh, so I'm really glad that youtouch on all those things.
Um, sounds really dynamic andholistic.
SPEAKER_00 (35:08):
It's the big difficulty is accepting,
accepting that, you know, youknow, it happened yesterday.
I I was a jerk.
I feel terrible.
I don't want to say that.
I'd rather say, oh no, it washis fault, it wasn't my fault.
Well, you know, it's much easierto say, and it's much easier to
think.
And it's it's it's it's notbeing evil or anything like
(35:29):
that.
It's simply laziness.
Blaming, putting the blame outthere.
It's the it looks like the easyway out.
And so what we have to learn isthat actually it's not, it
actually is the hard way becauseit just piles up the emotional
baggage, and you just carry it,you're carrying it more and more
every year.
So that that's the realization,like death meditate, or combined
with death meditation, that'sthe realization which really can
(35:52):
propel your practice.
SPEAKER_01 (35:53):
How do I want to live?
How do I want to interact withUncle Jack?
What feels like a say a warmerway to interact with Uncle Jack
that really aligns with myvalues and what I aspire to?
Yeah, I think, you know, for me,mindfulness of death was what
(36:15):
got me on the this path to beginwith in a very serious way, just
reflecting on the contrastbetween how I was living versus
how my mindfulness teachers wereliving, in the sense that they
seemed to embody these valuesthat I admired of care,
(36:38):
patience, humility, forgiveness,focus, wisdom.
And um, I thought, you know, Iwant to embody those values to
the fullest extent that that Ican.
How do I do that?
I might die tomorrow, so I mightas well practice that right now.
(37:02):
I might die next year, so howcan I fill this year with
practice to be able to be on mydeathbed or almost get hit by a
truck and realize that um, yeah,I've dedicated a large chunk of
my life to embodying what Ivalue the most in this world,
(37:24):
which are these these values.
And then so that's what got meto basically ordain there's a
longer story behind that, butmindfulness of death is so
clarifying, and you know, theBuddha himself said that it was
the most powerful mindfulnesspractice there is, sensing into
each inhale as if it'spotentially your last inhale.
(37:47):
And you know, we're not beingmorbid, we're just being aware
of that reality.
Um, we don't know how long wehave.
Um, yeah, so we don't have to bea monk in the sense that we have
to ordain at a monastery andshave our heads and wear robes
and you know, carry an alms bowlwith us.
(38:09):
You know, we can cultivate ourinner monk.
You know, I think that thesecommunities of practitioners
practicing together in a safeway are so invaluable, whether
they're 30-minute sessions threetimes a week or on a long
retreat together or at yourlocal library.
(38:30):
You know, I encourage everyonelistening to find a group that
resonates with you.
And Stephen uh Scottini is awonderful teacher with a very uh
deep background of practicethat's weave who's weaving in
practices of the heart and bodyand mind and spirit.
(38:52):
And so if you feel called topractice with him, I encourage
you to check out MindfulnessLive at his website at um
scatini.com.
That's s-h e-t-tin-i.com.
We'll put a link in the shownotes to scatini.com and or
(39:14):
mindfulnesslive.ca.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
That works too.
Same same website.
SPEAKER_01 (39:19):
Wonderful.
Thank you.
And the CA is for Canada,correct?
That's right, yeah.
Yeah.
So mindfulnesslive.ca will leadyou to the same place where you
can learn more about Stephen,read his blog, learn more about
his um ongoing offerings withthe Mindfulness Live.
(39:42):
So that would be 12 noonEastern, 9 Pacific for a half
hour of meditation andreflection, uh, which again is
so invaluable to our practice,our growth, our lives.
Stephen, is there anything elseyou'd like to share that you
think might be relevant for ouraudience or anything about
(40:03):
yourself or your offerings thatyou'd like to share?
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
Uh yeah, I'd like to, because this all came up as
we were talking several timesand that we we never sort of
addressed it directly, but I dolike to underline that we we are
social creatures, profoundly so.
You know, we talk about innerpeace, and we we talk about
being solitude being a goodthing, and it can be, you know,
but only as a as a contrast tothe reality of our lives,
(40:29):
because we do depend on others.
We gain a sense of identitythrough the eyes of others.
We we learn uh all our goodhabits and all our bad habits in
interaction with others, and umwe we can't let it go.
I mean, I tried to get I triedto become completely alone.
That's that was the first thingI did when I started traveling.
(40:51):
I wanted to get away frompeople, people with a problem.
Um I was very much in that blameuh mindset at the time, and and
I I was sure that if I got aloneby myself that everything would
be fine.
I got there, I finallyeverything was perfect exactly
the way I wanted, and I feltlonely.
I couldn't believe it.
I felt terrible.
(41:11):
I was longing for company.
I couldn't believe it.
And since then, I mean it's beena long time, but I've begun to
realize in so many ways howimportant it is, this aspect
that I'm not just me, I'm aproduct of this society.
You know, go back to theBuddhist concept of dependent
arising.
Um, but it it that it thatreally makes it tangible that
(41:32):
what's going on is not just me.
I'm learning to live withothers, and other people trigger
me, sometimes in good ways,sometimes in bad ways, sometimes
I trigger myself.
But it's always in connectionwith others.
I uh mindfulness ideally is asocial activity.
(41:55):
Yeah, sure we work on ourselves,but not in isolation.
We learn more about ourselvesand how well we've done in our
meditation when we go into adifficult situation where
everyone's fighting and arguing,and we have to insert ourselves
and do something constructivethere.
That's where the real practicehappens.
So it's not sitting cross-leggedin a quiet room.
(42:15):
The real work comes uh in thechaos of life.
SPEAKER_01 (42:19):
Yeah, that's well said, and you know, just
touching on that um importantcall to action to you know
befriend ourselves more andmore.
Sometimes we can learn what ourstrengths are by being in
community and hearing fromothers.
(42:40):
What do you like about me that Imay not see in myself?
And sometimes community can uhhelp us realize that you know we
are good people, or there's somuch to like about ourselves
that we may not see, but thatother people might see in us.
(43:01):
And that can kind of be a mirrorfor us to acknowledge how
special we are.
SPEAKER_00 (43:07):
Yeah, that's a wonderful thing when it happens.
SPEAKER_01 (43:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:11):
We need to be reminded.
SPEAKER_01 (43:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, we are we are human,and it's easy for us to notice
the things that we don't like orthat are not ideal.
Yeah, and we all need remindersof what's good in us.
Well, Stephen, I think that youprovide a very safe container
(43:34):
for people to practice on anongoing basis, and that you have
so many tools that you offer toencourage people to bring
mindfulness to more and moreaspects of their life with uh
focus and intentionality,sincerity.
So um it's been an honor to tomeet you today, Steven.
(43:58):
And uh it's been a wonderfulconversation that I hope that we
can do another round sometime.
And uh you said you're inToronto or no Montreal.
SPEAKER_00 (44:09):
Montreal, same time.
SPEAKER_01 (44:11):
Yeah.
Next time I'm in Montreal, I'lluh contact you and maybe we'll
have lunch together orsomething.
SPEAKER_00 (44:17):
That sounds great.
SPEAKER_01 (44:18):
Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_00 (44:19):
Okay, well, thank you very much, Sean.
It was a real pleasure.
SPEAKER_01 (44:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Thank you.
And encourage people to go tomindfulnesslive.ca or
scatini.com to learn more.
Um, Stephen, thanks again forcoming and um I wish you a
wonderful rest of your day.
SPEAKER_00 (44:38):
Thank you very much, Sean.
It was a great honor.
SPEAKER_01 (44:40):
All of us.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Alright, welcome everyone to the Mindfulness
Exercises podcast.
My name is Sean Fargo.
Today I have the honor ofspeaking with Stephen Scatini,
known as the Inner Monk.
As you may have guessed, he wasa former Buddhist monk like
myself, and he turned into amindfulness coach and author.
(00:21):
After spending eight yearsstudying Buddhist philosophy and
psychology and debate in Asiaand in Europe, Scatini
transitioned to secular life,becoming a husband and a father
like myself, and he's also aprofessional in writing, design,
and typographic design.
(00:42):
In 2003, Stephen founded QuietMind Seminars with his wife
Caroline.
And in the pandemic, in about2020, he morphed that into what
is now his ongoing servicecalled Mindfulness Live.
He successfully detachesmeditative practices from their
(01:04):
religious trappings usingscientific language to address
today's fast paced secularlifestyle.
Stephen's books include TheNovice, which is a memoir of his
monastic years.
And also it begins with silence,a secular guide to Buddhist
(01:27):
teachings.
He hosts regular onlinemindfulness sessions, he offers
personal guided meditationservices, and conducts regular
mindfulness workshops andseminars.
Through his brand, The InnerMonk, Stephen Scottini empowers
individuals to reduce stress,improve focus, enhance their
(01:51):
relationships, and cultivateemotional intelligence.
Stephen, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Thanks for having me, Sean.
It's a pleasure to be.
SPEAKER_01 (02:00):
Yeah, it's an honor to meet you.
It sounds like we have someoverlap in terms of our
background.
We were both monks for a while.
Now we're mindfulness coachesand teachers wanting to help
people in kind of a secular wayin this modern world.
Not too many of us out there, soit's nice to connect with you.
(02:22):
I love your brand, the innermonk.
That's really cool.
Stephen, I'd love to start justkind of learning a little bit
about your story and yourjourney.
And can you talk about yourfirst encounters with
mindfulness or meditation and uhwhat inspired you to begin
practicing?
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
I wanted to control my mind.
It's driving me crazy.
I didn't know I had attentiondeficit when I was a kid.
People didn't use that phrase,but I did, and I had all sorts
of problems, and and peoplelooked at me as a problematic
kid.
And so I was angry and uhfrustrated and distracted all
(03:02):
the time.
And I I was a teenager when Irealized I had to do something
about this.
And it was the 60s, it was um itwas the time of uh you know the
Beatles and meditation and allthat.
And I used to put on a RaviShankar album and I'd lie on the
bed with my eyes closed andimagine it was floating through
the universe, you know.
So that that was the beginning.
(03:23):
Over the years I kept readingand learning, and uh it was a
long process.
Eventually um it became a reallypowerful drive.
After four years of university,I dropped out because I just
couldn't face that sort ofcontinual life that I was I was
on track to become justsomething I I didn't want to be
(03:46):
and I didn't understand, and Iand I felt compelled to really
uh find myself.
I uh I had one advantage, whichwas my parents were both from
the circus, and they had bothdone what they really loved to
do when they were young.
So I grew up with this idea thatuh I could do whatever I wanted
with my life.
So it wasn't hard for me to giveeverything up and uh went out to
(04:09):
India and uh joined theTibetans.
Very different from the Thaitradition that you were in.
This is much more colourful,it's it's much more Catholic
tradition, in many ways muchmore challenging.
I stayed with them for eightyears, and in the last year or
two I started uh exploringTheravada Buddhism, Southern
Buddhism.
(04:29):
That was part of the reason thatI left.
I I felt much more at home withthat uh very human Buddha, as
opposed to the Tibetan Buddha isyou know, sort of a well, what
would you call him?
Supernatural, uh superhero,certainly not human, not someone
I could relate to.
SPEAKER_01 (04:47):
Yeah, maybe more of like a religious yeah, much more
so.
You had parents in the circus.
You're in were you would you saythat you're inspired by the
Beatles in terms of their uhforay into meditation and being
inspired by what's what's in themind and how to cultivate the
(05:07):
mind?
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Yeah, I I don't think they caused that
fascination.
I was raised as a Catholic in avery old-fashioned and very
dogmatic way.
And I I did reject the beliefs,and I I had to walk away from
the whole church.
But one thing remained in mylife, in my mind, which is that
I I did need something.
That's what kept me going.
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
Why did you actually go to Asia?
Like, did you hear about the themonks in India?
Or um, did you know you weregoing to Asia to to learn from
monastics?
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
I was traveling.
I just put out my thumb and Istarted traveling, and my uh
whole my hope was to find, Isuppose, a mentor.
That's what I was looking for.
I was looking for some guidancein my life.
And as I was, I I'd already readquite a lot about Buddhism, and
I was certainly inclined towardsit, but I wasn't looking
(06:03):
specifically for that.
That just happened to play outthat way.
I came out of a period ofintense uh uh drug use uh in
Pakistan, and I landed in Indiauh in Dharamsala, and the
Tibetans were very welcoming.
I was at a very low point in mylife, I was in need of comfort
(06:24):
and belonging, and that'sexactly what they offered.
And they took me incrediblygenerous with their time and
their teaching, and it was awonderful experience.
But in the end, I had to admitit wasn't for me.
I wasn't made I was trained tobe a teacher, but it was made
clear that I should be teachingTibetan Buddhism, Tibetan style.
(06:45):
I realized that that would notgo down with a very wide
audience in the West, and thatthese were the people I wanted
to I want to teach my peers.
So I left and I found my ownway.
All my friends found teachingcareers within different
Buddhist institutions and groupsand so on, and uh and I didn't
do that.
I walked right away from that,so it was a long and hard road,
but uh it certainly left me in avery independent place.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
It uh sounds similar to my story in the sense that my
first year as a monk, themonastery where I lived was
training me to be a teacher fortheir own specific style that
was quite well, it it kind ofraised a lot of eyebrows in the
West, and I did not want to comeback to the United States to see
(07:31):
my family and friends teachingsomething that was quite
bizarre, very belief-based,dogmatic.
Um, I felt like I would uh bedisconnected from from my loved
ones and maybe a sense ofreality, and uh knew that I had
to find something a little bitmore say secular, grounded in
(07:54):
common sense, something thatcould make sense to the average
person.
So I think we share similarstories.
I then found the Thai foresttradition, which I think much
better fit the bill for me inthe sense that their teachings
are um more inquisitive, just becurious about your own
(08:16):
awareness, your own experience,find your own insights, and that
I could uh practice and sharewith others much more easily.
So anyway, resonate with thatpart of your story very much.
Can you share what were some ofthe first practices that you
found that um resonated with youthat you felt separate from the
(08:40):
dogma or theology?
What practices did you find mostuseful in the early years of
your practice?
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Uh death meditation.
Over the years, all the I'vestudied a lot of philosophy,
some of it's very complicatedand language and all this stuff.
But I over the years I've justI've realized that the difficult
thing about mindfulness isdoing, just doing it on a
regular basis, really committingto it, you know, doing it
whether it's a good day or a badday.
(09:09):
And uh that that's the hardpart.
There is no better motive, andthere is I mean, it is the real
motive.
I mean, the reason we're doingall of this is to is to face our
own mortality, face our ourlife.
So when you realize, or thenlet's put it this way, the more
you realize how close deathreally is and how easy it is and
(09:32):
how uncertain it is, the moreyour life comes into focus.
It really does.
So in the Tibetan tradition,that they make it very clear at
the beginning, at the outset,that you know there are two
types of meditation, there'sconcentrated meditation and
there's contemplative.
So the contemplative was fromthe very beginning made and into
a big deal, which I'd alwaysthought was no, meditation is
all about going in and innerpeace and being completely shut
(09:55):
off from the world around youand perfectly blissful.
So I'm glad that that I was soonabused or disabused of that
idea.
But the death meditation thatreally works, still does.
SPEAKER_01 (10:06):
Yeah, and and can you break that down in in terms
of a practice?
Do you is it just a merereminder that death is could be
here at any moment, or is therea step-by-step practice that you
do?
SPEAKER_00 (10:20):
Well, both.
I mean, when it comes into yourmind, that you know, to not
dismiss it is already a bigdeal.
So to realize, yes, you know, itis gonna happen.
But then you can go through itmethodically.
Imagine you're lying on yourbed, you're dying, you're
breathing your last breath, theair's coming out and it's not
gonna go back in.
It's you can make it very vivid,it's not difficult.
(10:41):
The funny thing is that it's notscary.
And that's that's the greatestlesson, perhaps of all, is that
uh because we avoid facing ourfears and our our anxieties
because God, I don't want toface it.
And yet when you do, when youactually turn to face it, it
becomes manageable in a way thatyou didn't expect.
(11:01):
Yeah, doing it in thatexperiential way, as an idea,
yes, has a certain effect, butwhen you really imagine it and
you put yourself in that and youand you're bringing not just
your your frontal cortex, butyour whole body and emotional
being into that experience, thenyeah, it it changes the way you
think, changes the way you feel,changes your priorities.
(11:24):
Yeah, priorities are a big dealwhen you're when you're living
in a consumer society.
It's a constant effort.
We're always trying to be moreor be something else.
SPEAKER_01 (11:33):
Yeah, you said for you it it put your life into
greater uh say focus.
How has it changed yourpriorities?
And do you share uh say deathmeditation or or death awareness
or marana sati with otherpeople?
And how do you see it affectthem?
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Some people are scared of it.
Most people do get into it.
They're very, you know, they'rea bit nervous because they
thought they didn't think theywere coming for that sometimes.
But on the whole, peopleappreciate it and and they
start, it takes time to realizehow it can affect you.
But it is a big part of whatwe're doing.
(12:14):
I mean, the very first step ofthe Eightfold Path is uh
outlook, is your mindset.
And that's exactly what thisworks on.
It it points you in thedirection of I want to bring
purpose to my life, I want tomake this life meaningful.
It's short, it's brief.
I'm gonna do it now.
I'm gonna engage.
(12:34):
What do I do?
And of course, then that's thehard part.
What do I do?
But you find out for yourself,that's the important part too.
A big part of what I teach andand what I write about is the
whole concept of belief.
And many people, for mostpeople, religion is that's what
it's all about.
If you believe, you're okay.
What I learned from the Buddhais that believing isn't enough.
(12:57):
You have to do.
So whatever helps you get awayfrom the theory and actually
enact what you're talking about,really get to know yourself,
accept yourself.
It's not easy, it's hard, it'sit's it's an emotional
challenge, but it's possible.
And that's that's the goal.
SPEAKER_01 (13:15):
And so you talk a lot about the inner monk.
Do you believe that we all havean inner monk?
And what is the inner monk?
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
Well, we can have it.
It's a place where we feel safewith ourselves, where we respect
ourselves, you know, instead of,oh, Stephen, you're so stupid.
Why did you do that?
It's it's a you know, it's it'sa recognition that we treat
ourselves badly sometimes, butum ultimately we're we
potentially we can be our ownbest friends.
(13:44):
And that's where the inner monkis.
That's what the inner monk is.
It's that place you can go toinside yourself, which is home,
where there's no judgment, whereyou can really let go of your
expectations, and you can seewhat's actually going on in your
body, in your feelings, and inyour thoughts, and in the world
around you.
There's no inner peace withoutouter peace as well.
(14:05):
So it's it's you know, it'sthere's a big picture here.
Meditation is not just private,individualized, but it does
start by making friends withyourself, and that's a biggie.
People have difficulty withthat.
I had difficulty with that.
And now with social media thesedays, there's a there's a it's
it's an epidemic of lowself-esteem because everyone's
(14:26):
comparing themselves more thanever with not even with people,
with imaginary profiles, youknow, made up ideas of what a
successful human life is like.
So um overcoming that is reallyhard because that's the world we
live in.
So you have to develop thatinner monk.
You have to develop someintegrity in yourself.
(14:49):
I don't mean just moralintegrity, but I mean functional
integrity, where you really knowwho you are, how you're being,
how you react, what to watch outfor, all of that stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (15:00):
Yeah, you uh said something perked up my ears that
I've been playing a with a lotlately, which is a sense of
safety and how to feel safe withourselves, how to find refuge
with ourselves, and how to befriends with ourselves.
What are some of the first fewsteps or recommendations that
(15:24):
you have for people forcultivating a sense of safety
with themselves?
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Well, the first thing is to like yourself, which
is harder than it sounds, ormore unusual than it sounds at
any rate.
And there's a practice that thatI do, uh and it's good for
journaling, called I Like BeingMe.
Do something and look at it andsay, well, that was good.
I like that.
I'm glad I did that.
I'm I like being me.
(15:50):
We're wired to give moreattention to danger for obvious
reasons, because you know,danger is it's gonna cut our
life off, then everything elseis irrelevant.
So we tend to look more towardsnegativity.
We see ourselves in negativeways much more easily than we do
positive ways.
And so it goes against thegrain.
It takes a special effort.
(16:10):
And effort, you see, there'sanother aspect of the Eightfold
Path, which which you need tocultivate.
It doesn't just happen byitself.
People ask me sometimes, so um,when does mindfulness get to
that point where it's automatic?
Of course, the whole point isthat it's not automatic.
That's what mindfulness isabout.
So we keep falling back intothat, you know, and we keep
(16:33):
falling back into the oh, I I Imessed up, I'm so stupid.
So it's very, very important tomake a formal practice each day.
If you're doing breathawareness, if you're doing uh
mantra meditation, whatever, youshould also do I like being me
meditation.
At least find something in thecourse of the day which makes
(16:54):
you think, I like that, that'sgood.
I'm not such a bad guy afterall.
SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
Yeah, when we think about, you know, why we're
friends with other people, it'sbecause we like different things
about them.
And so it makes sense that, youknow, it would be important for
us to find, you know, as manythings as possible about
ourselves that we like and toactually cultivate that likeness
for ourselves.
(17:20):
Uh yeah, and I think journalingis a wonderful way to do that,
keeps us kind of focused on it,and we can find creative ways of
bringing awareness to ourselvesand putting it down on paper.
That's a that's a greatrecommendation.
And for those of you listening,you know, what do you like about
yourself?
How much do you like aboutyourself?
(17:41):
And how would it feel if youliked 10% more of yourself?
You know, can you cultivate thisability just to be with yourself
in a way that's safe orcomfortable?
I think it's really, reallypowerful and can encourage us
just to be more, just to be withourselves and just kind of
(18:03):
sitting and sensing.
SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
One of the things that really um crystallized my
practice after I left monasticlife was because I studied with
the Tibetans who very rarelyactually study the Buddha.
Well, look, there's 20, 2600years of study and scholarship,
and they focus mostly on that,the interpretations of the
(18:26):
Buddha.
But when I went back to the tothe uh the Pali Canon, to the
original of the earliest texts,I realized something, I I found
something which really made alot of sense to me.
That the entry to the path, youenter the path when you become
independent of teachers anddoctrine.
And that was a big eye opener.
(18:48):
Because that means, well, doesthat mean I I should not be a
Buddhist?
Is that what the Buddha'stelling me?
Yeah, it's belief, again, beliefis just not enough.
You've got to, it's it's got tobe in your own mental continuum,
it's got to be part of your ownexperience if it's gonna
transform you in any way at all.
And that depends on believing inyourself, on trusting your own
(19:10):
ability to know and moveforward.
Doesn't mean you're alwaysright.
You trust in your ability tolearn as you move forward.
It's a path of trial and error.
And of course, when you firststart, when you first encounter
the Buddhist teachings, my God,they're so well organized, and
you've got lists and numbers andhundreds, and it looks like a
pristine, you know, and then yougo and sit and meditate, and all
(19:31):
you find is chaos.
So it's there's a big contrasthere.
So it takes it it's that senseof befriending yourself, being
comfortable in your skin asyou're doing this, and relying
on yourself.
That's really what we're lookingfor.
Once you can do that, then thenyou start to have a solid
practice.
SPEAKER_01 (19:51):
Yeah, there's nothing, say, external that's
gonna save you.
Yeah, and um, especially in theTheravada tradition, there's a
lot of emphasis on say streamentry or this first part of
awakening.
One of the milestones, if youwill, is uh that you've given
(20:13):
up, you're clinging to what theycall rites and rituals, which is
basically what you said, thatit's not about, you know, all
these say beliefs or about howmany times you you bow to a
statue or say ceremonies.
(20:35):
It's not about any of thosethings, these trappings, if you
will, which when I became amonk, I got really excited about
all these new rituals and chantsand you know, wearing my robes a
certain way.
And, you know, I felt like if Idid all these things, I'm gonna
be a better monk and a betterperson, and it's gonna put me on
(20:59):
a fast track to enlightenment.
And, you know, there's nothingwrong with any of those things,
but really what's more importantis our heart.
You know, are we grounded?
Are we paying attention,adhering to our priorities?
Are we treating ourselves andothers well?
(21:19):
There's elements of theEightfold Path just around right
livelihood and right effort andethics that are so foundational.
And it's about the practice ofpresence rather than you know
succumbing to the trappings of,say, religious procedures.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
To go back to your your idea of safety, it's about
where we're looking for oursafety.
Are we looking for it outside orinside?
In Buddhism, we talk veryplainly about refuge.
You take refuge in the Buddhaand the Dhamma and the Sangha,
which all sound like they're outthere, but they're really not,
especially Dharma.
At the end of his life, theysaid, What are we gonna do?
And he said, You rely on yourpractice, you rely on your
(21:57):
Dharma.
Who's gonna lead us?
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yeah, be a lamp unto yourself.
And you know, we all have aninner monk, we all have an inner
Buddha, you know, the practiceis within, and that sense of
connection with others is soimportant, but you know, we can
be around others physically andstill feel alone.
And we can be alone and feelsuper connected with anyone,
(22:24):
everyone, all beings,everywhere.
So it really does start within.
I'm wondering, you know, how howdoes your past identity as a
Buddhist monk shape the way thatyou teach and connect to people
now?
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
Gosh, what a big question.
I gave back my robes, as theysay, but my teacher just looked
at me and he said, he said, youknow what?
Once a monk, always a monk.
And it sort of stuck with me.
I don't really I know you work alot in business with business
people and and uh corporatesettings.
And uh I never did that.
(23:03):
I I worked for one year in acorporate job and that's all I
could do.
I've always been uh independent,I've always been, I've never
really worried very much aboutmoney.
Uh some people say I should haveworried more, but I've been
okay, I've survived.
So I yeah, so in that way, beingnot really uh on the same page
(23:23):
as most working people, uh Ifeel a little bit different, you
know, and I feel maybe I'm toodifferent that that my life made
me sometimes I feel, oh, it'sjust too weird.
And that's certainly the waypeople have treated me in the
past.
When I first came out of themonastery in 1982, the first
thing I learned was to not talkabout it, because people just
thought it was too weird.
And then in the 90s, that wholeattitude began to change, and
(23:47):
people used to say, Oh, really?
You were a monk?
That's so interesting.
So there was a social change,there is a social change going
on, and I began to see thatthen.
So then it left me a little morefree to uh expose myself as a
monk.
In fact, I called my first blogwas The Naked Monk, which was
about trying to pursue thatambition, that monkish ambition,
(24:08):
um, but without the trappings,without the robes and the llamas
and the you know the bells andthe drums and all of that stuff.
Um how do you actually do this?
So that's what I was exploringin the blog and in my teachings
back then.
I'm very conscious of it.
In a sense, it's an identity.
I mean, in these days when wehave to create an online
(24:29):
identity, yeah, a formerBuddhist monk keeps coming up
again and again and again.
And that's my that's my moniker.
You use it too, it's on yourwebsite.
SPEAKER_01 (24:38):
Yeah, I don't really think of it.
Um but yes, people tend to yeah,I mean, some people like it,
some people don't, but it'sdifferent.
Exactly.
That's the point.
By no means does being aBuddhist monk mean that you're
necessarily wise, but it doespoint to some degree of say
(25:01):
intentionality, some degree ofsincerity, and uh some degree of
uh of practice.
You know, nowadays some peopleordain for like a day in certain
monasteries, and so you know,there's a lot of people now
saying they were a monk, but youknow, maybe they didn't they
(25:22):
didn't last 24 hours, which isfine.
But there are degrees to thesethings um in the sense that some
people were a monk for weeks,months, years, decades, and you
can usually sense the differencein in them just in their quality
of being or their quality ofpresence.
SPEAKER_00 (25:40):
Yeah, I mean, even in the Buddha's time though
there were householders who whodid very well, who became
arhats.
You know, the Buddha was quitehappy to proclaim their
achievements.
And the same today.
You don't have to be a monk.
But if for me, I was verydamaged.
I was emotionally uh needy, Iwas lonely, there was lots of
stuff going on.
But the point is it it was ahealing mechanism for me, very
(26:04):
powerful one, to be in thetradition, to be protected uh
materially as well asspiritually and emotionally by
this community.
So it was it was a terrificexperience for me, and I loved
it.
And I still look back upon itwith a sense of longing,
actually, but at the same timeuh knowing that no, I d and I
wouldn't fit there anymore.
(26:24):
I don't want to fit thereanymore.
That's done.
I mean I'm I'm I'm longing forthat innocence, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
Yeah, is it innocence?
Is it simplicity?
Is it that connection with withother monks?
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Being able to speak to people of like mind is a big
deal.
As I say, when I left themonastery, that was in
Switzerland, and that's when Imoved to North America, uh, and
I literally had no supportsystem here at all.
And uh I soon discovered that noone was interested in what I had
to talk about.
Everything I'd been learning forthe last eight years was
(26:57):
completely irrelevant to theimmediacy of my predicament.
I had no money, I had no jobskills, and I had to get to
work, and that was really hard,leaving the community behind in
that sense.
But then eventually I did buildup a community, starting with my
wife, my present wife, uh, ofpeople that I could talk to
about this stuff.
(27:18):
And I realized what friendshipreally meant to me, what friends
what friendships I reallyvalued, what I needed to
continue my practice.
Um you do need a Sangha.
They don't have to be monks,they don't have to be Buddhists,
they don't have to be anything,but they need to be people you
can speak to on your own terms,who reflect your own values and
(27:42):
who are honest to themselves.
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
Yeah, I think at the monastery the community was so
invaluable to me.
I grew up without any brothers,and I'd always wanted brothers.
I had a few friends, but andthey had brothers, and I was
always jealous of them.
And at the monasteries where Iwas I became incredibly close
(28:06):
with a new collection ofbrothers.
They varied in age and race andbackgrounds, but uh we were
incredibly close, and I rememberlaughing with them and you know,
sitting close with them forcountless hours on end and you
know, meditating and practicingand talking.
(28:27):
That sense of brotherhood was souh precious to me.
And you know, after I disrobed,I then worked at Spirit Rock
Meditation Center for five yearsand found, you know, a
wonderful, beautiful Sanghathere, where I was there at
least forty hours a week, but Iended up, you know, spending
(28:50):
quite a few nights therepracticing in the meditation
hall, you know, going early tomeet with others for a hike and
really connecting with thesangha there.
And now with mindfulnessexercises, we have a nice,
wonderful sangha of newmindfulness teacher trainees and
co-teachers, and it's it's a abeautiful connection that we
(29:12):
have.
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
It's necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (29:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
Mindfulness needs support.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:19):
Yeah.
Is it Ananda who asked theBuddha, like, like how much does
Sangha or community or spiritualfriendships, how much of an
impact does that have on our ownpractice?
Is it a part of the path?
And the Buddha said, no, it'snot a part of the path, it's the
whole path, meaning Sangha andcommunity and you know,
(29:43):
spiritual friends are what helpus to grow, sustain our
practice, inspire us.
And if we didn't have acommunity, then and if we're
left to our own devices, it'smuch drier.
It's less sustainable, probablya lot less meaningful.
(30:07):
And so that segues into whatyou're doing now with
Mindfulness Live, where itsounds like you have a growing
community where you meet withpeople on a regular basis and uh
sharing um time with each other.
Can you talk about how you bringthis sense of community into
(30:29):
your teachings now and um howthat's impacted your life?
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
Yeah, well, it's it's wonderful.
I started teaching in Montrealin uh 2003, a series called
Quiet Mind Seminars.
And that went on every year.
I did three or four 10-weeksessions each year, and we'd
have lots of people coming, andum a lot of them liked it.
And at the end of each course,they'd they'd say, So what's
(30:54):
next?
And I'd say, Well, uh, you know,in six weeks we're starting the
next course.
But I realized I felt bad aboutit.
I felt like I was dropping them.
It was it wasn't right.
And then, as I said earlier, Irealized that, you know, what is
the big difficulty withmindfulness is doing it.
You need support.
(31:16):
And I realized, well, most ofthese people who come to my
classes are completely isolated.
They don't know anyone likethis.
Very few people who meditateactually live with another
meditator.
The vast majority, their spouseor you know, the better half is
simply not into it.
And so they don't get that.
Some of us do, we're fortunate,but but many don't.
(31:37):
Putting together a consistent Iwanted to provide support, and I
discussed it with my wife,Caroline.
She's she's a life coach, andwe're very much on the same
page.
We have a lot of, she's beenextremely helpful in what I've
built.
So the idea of continualsupport, three times a week,
it's only half an hour, but it'sit's it's the regularity which
(32:00):
we're looking at.
And so we meet, I've got 41people right now.
Um about 10 people show upregularly, uh, in person.
At least half of those peoplenever show up.
They simply go to the recording,so they're on their own.
But I'm constantly trying tobring them in.
(32:20):
And the ones up front, the oneswho do show, they arrive early,
they stay late, they chat, it'sit's and they get to know each
other.
It's it's really wonderful.
People ask their questions, andsometimes I give an answer,
sometimes they answer eachother.
And it's um it's really lovely.
And and it's empowering.
SPEAKER_01 (32:40):
What uh days of the week and times of day do you
meet?
SPEAKER_00 (32:43):
Uh Monday, Wednesday, Friday, 12 noon to
12:30, Eastern time.
Uh not everyone can make itbecause people are all over the
world, but um, I mean, whatevertime you choose, there's gonna
be some people who can't makeit.
So it's uh and I find that I'vegot a lot of working people who
who come in their lunch hour.
Uh local from Montreal, my myold in-person students.
(33:08):
So um so it's good for them.
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
And do you lead different kinds of meditations
each time?
Do you incorporate heart-basedpractices or mindfulness of
death, or what do you what doyou guide people through?
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
Yeah, we we we we do a different theme each week.
This week uh the theme wasempathy.
There's a little meditation,sometimes it's just very plain
breath awareness, um, andsometimes we go into more
reflective meditation, and thenuh we have 10-minute discourse
where I actually talk about thewhole concept of empathy, how it
relates to compassion, what'sthe difference, what's the
(33:47):
connection, or what are theobstacles.
I I I focus on obstacles a lotbecause you know people like to
be mindful, you know, they theywant to be mindful of the
sunshine and the green grass andthe flowing water, and and you
know, this is what they thinkmindfulness is.
But when I say, well, you know,you can also be mindful of your
own reactivity, and they go,ooh, yeah.
(34:09):
Yeah, but look, you face it, youcan actually change it.
You know, there's there's a bigpayoff here.
And so I I try to ease them intothat, and that that's really, I
mean, that's that's the focus,that's the point, isn't it?
You can actually transformourselves, but not
unconsciously.
You've got to see what'shappening.
So it there's always this focuson what are the obstacles?
(34:31):
Why, why, you know, why do I notwant to sit?
Why do I why do I try and sit myminds everywhere else?
Why why can I not resist UncleJack, who's such a jerk, and he
always makes me explode?
That's the purpose.
That's what we're working on.
We're trying to transform ourbehavior, not just our way of
thinking.
SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
Yeah, mindfulness is not just about you know being
calm all the time.
It's about being more aware of,as you said, our obstacles, our
reactivity, our fears.
Uh, so I'm really glad that youtouch on all those things.
Um, sounds really dynamic andholistic.
SPEAKER_00 (35:08):
It's the big difficulty is accepting,
accepting that, you know, youknow, it happened yesterday.
I I was a jerk.
I feel terrible.
I don't want to say that.
I'd rather say, oh no, it washis fault, it wasn't my fault.
Well, you know, it's much easierto say, and it's much easier to
think.
And it's it's it's it's notbeing evil or anything like
(35:29):
that.
It's simply laziness.
Blaming, putting the blame outthere.
It's the it looks like the easyway out.
And so what we have to learn isthat actually it's not, it
actually is the hard way becauseit just piles up the emotional
baggage, and you just carry it,you're carrying it more and more
every year.
So that that's the realization,like death meditate, or combined
with death meditation, that'sthe realization which really can
(35:52):
propel your practice.
SPEAKER_01 (35:53):
How do I want to live?
How do I want to interact withUncle Jack?
What feels like a say a warmerway to interact with Uncle Jack
that really aligns with myvalues and what I aspire to?
Yeah, I think, you know, for me,mindfulness of death was what
(36:15):
got me on the this path to beginwith in a very serious way, just
reflecting on the contrastbetween how I was living versus
how my mindfulness teachers wereliving, in the sense that they
seemed to embody these valuesthat I admired of care,
(36:38):
patience, humility, forgiveness,focus, wisdom.
And um, I thought, you know, Iwant to embody those values to
the fullest extent that that Ican.
How do I do that?
I might die tomorrow, so I mightas well practice that right now.
(37:02):
I might die next year, so howcan I fill this year with
practice to be able to be on mydeathbed or almost get hit by a
truck and realize that um, yeah,I've dedicated a large chunk of
my life to embodying what Ivalue the most in this world,
(37:24):
which are these these values.
And then so that's what got meto basically ordain there's a
longer story behind that, butmindfulness of death is so
clarifying, and you know, theBuddha himself said that it was
the most powerful mindfulnesspractice there is, sensing into
each inhale as if it'spotentially your last inhale.
(37:47):
And you know, we're not beingmorbid, we're just being aware
of that reality.
Um, we don't know how long wehave.
Um, yeah, so we don't have to bea monk in the sense that we have
to ordain at a monastery andshave our heads and wear robes
and you know, carry an alms bowlwith us.
(38:09):
You know, we can cultivate ourinner monk.
You know, I think that thesecommunities of practitioners
practicing together in a safeway are so invaluable, whether
they're 30-minute sessions threetimes a week or on a long
retreat together or at yourlocal library.
(38:30):
You know, I encourage everyonelistening to find a group that
resonates with you.
And Stephen uh Scottini is awonderful teacher with a very uh
deep background of practicethat's weave who's weaving in
practices of the heart and bodyand mind and spirit.
(38:52):
And so if you feel called topractice with him, I encourage
you to check out MindfulnessLive at his website at um
scatini.com.
That's s-h e-t-tin-i.com.
We'll put a link in the shownotes to scatini.com and or
(39:14):
mindfulnesslive.ca.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
That works too.
Same same website.
SPEAKER_01 (39:19):
Wonderful.
Thank you.
And the CA is for Canada,correct?
That's right, yeah.
Yeah.
So mindfulnesslive.ca will leadyou to the same place where you
can learn more about Stephen,read his blog, learn more about
his um ongoing offerings withthe Mindfulness Live.
(39:42):
So that would be 12 noonEastern, 9 Pacific for a half
hour of meditation andreflection, uh, which again is
so invaluable to our practice,our growth, our lives.
Stephen, is there anything elseyou'd like to share that you
think might be relevant for ouraudience or anything about
(40:03):
yourself or your offerings thatyou'd like to share?
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
Uh yeah, I'd like to, because this all came up as
we were talking several timesand that we we never sort of
addressed it directly, but I dolike to underline that we we are
social creatures, profoundly so.
You know, we talk about innerpeace, and we we talk about
being solitude being a goodthing, and it can be, you know,
but only as a as a contrast tothe reality of our lives,
(40:29):
because we do depend on others.
We gain a sense of identitythrough the eyes of others.
We we learn uh all our goodhabits and all our bad habits in
interaction with others, and umwe we can't let it go.
I mean, I tried to get I triedto become completely alone.
That's that was the first thingI did when I started traveling.
(40:51):
I wanted to get away frompeople, people with a problem.
Um I was very much in that blameuh mindset at the time, and and
I I was sure that if I got aloneby myself that everything would
be fine.
I got there, I finallyeverything was perfect exactly
the way I wanted, and I feltlonely.
I couldn't believe it.
I felt terrible.
(41:11):
I was longing for company.
I couldn't believe it.
And since then, I mean it's beena long time, but I've begun to
realize in so many ways howimportant it is, this aspect
that I'm not just me, I'm aproduct of this society.
You know, go back to theBuddhist concept of dependent
arising.
Um, but it it that it thatreally makes it tangible that
(41:32):
what's going on is not just me.
I'm learning to live withothers, and other people trigger
me, sometimes in good ways,sometimes in bad ways, sometimes
I trigger myself.
But it's always in connectionwith others.
I uh mindfulness ideally is asocial activity.
(41:55):
Yeah, sure we work on ourselves,but not in isolation.
We learn more about ourselvesand how well we've done in our
meditation when we go into adifficult situation where
everyone's fighting and arguing,and we have to insert ourselves
and do something constructivethere.
That's where the real practicehappens.
So it's not sitting cross-leggedin a quiet room.
(42:15):
The real work comes uh in thechaos of life.
SPEAKER_01 (42:19):
Yeah, that's well said, and you know, just
touching on that um importantcall to action to you know
befriend ourselves more andmore.
Sometimes we can learn what ourstrengths are by being in
community and hearing fromothers.
(42:40):
What do you like about me that Imay not see in myself?
And sometimes community can uhhelp us realize that you know we
are good people, or there's somuch to like about ourselves
that we may not see, but thatother people might see in us.
(43:01):
And that can kind of be a mirrorfor us to acknowledge how
special we are.
SPEAKER_00 (43:07):
Yeah, that's a wonderful thing when it happens.
SPEAKER_01 (43:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:11):
We need to be reminded.
SPEAKER_01 (43:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, we are we are human,and it's easy for us to notice
the things that we don't like orthat are not ideal.
Yeah, and we all need remindersof what's good in us.
Well, Stephen, I think that youprovide a very safe container
(43:34):
for people to practice on anongoing basis, and that you have
so many tools that you offer toencourage people to bring
mindfulness to more and moreaspects of their life with uh
focus and intentionality,sincerity.
So um it's been an honor to tomeet you today, Steven.
(43:58):
And uh it's been a wonderfulconversation that I hope that we
can do another round sometime.
And uh you said you're inToronto or no Montreal.
SPEAKER_00 (44:09):
Montreal, same time.
SPEAKER_01 (44:11):
Yeah.
Next time I'm in Montreal, I'lluh contact you and maybe we'll
have lunch together orsomething.
SPEAKER_00 (44:17):
That sounds great.
SPEAKER_01 (44:18):
Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_00 (44:19):
Okay, well, thank you very much, Sean.
It was a real pleasure.
SPEAKER_01 (44:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Thank you.
And encourage people to go tomindfulnesslive.ca or
scatini.com to learn more.
Um, Stephen, thanks again forcoming and um I wish you a
wonderful rest of your day.
SPEAKER_00 (44:38):
Thank you very much, Sean.
It was a great honor.
SPEAKER_01 (44:40):
All of us.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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