December 13, 2025 • 42 mins
Healing isn’t a checkbox; it’s a way of relating to what hurts. We sit down with Insight Meditation teacher and author Justin Michelson to explore a grounded path through stress, pain, and trauma that begins with self-compassion and widens into nature, lineage, and something larger than ourselves.
Justin's website: JustinMichelsonDharma.com
Justin's book: The Dharma of Healing
From his first teen meditation class to hard-won lessons with overwhelming energies, Justin shares how he moved from striving to surrender—trading the warrior stance for a bow that restores safety and connection.
We dive into a powerful framework he calls the four turnings of the wheel of healing: surface compassion for daily frictions, depth compassion for buried fear and grief, collective compassion for what family and culture seeded in us, and universal compassion that lets us rest in a benevolent field. Along the way, we unpack his striking metaphor of self-aversion as psychological autoimmunity—how our ancient impulse to pull away from pain turns inward and keeps wounds stuck—and how kind attention unwinds that loop. For listeners far from forests, Justin offers simple, sensory ways to let nature be a teacher: a patch of sun, a street tree, the feel of wind as a reminder that we’re held by more than our thoughts.
Justin also opens a window into his Native Foods Nursery, where tending edible native plants becomes a living practice of reciprocity and belonging. Teaching, for him, is shared practice—not perfection—where the goal is to help people remember their own inner wisdom and build resilience that can meet a turbulent world. If you’ve been craving practices that are practical, humane, and spacious enough for real life, this conversation offers a map and the companionship to walk it.
If the episode resonates, share it with a friend who could use a gentler path forward, and leave a review so more people can find these practices. Subscribe for future conversations on mindfulness, compassion, and healing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
Welcome to the Mindfulness Exercises Podcast.
A show to help you live moremindfully and inspire others to
do the same.
Go beyond listening.
And dive deeper intomindfulness.
(00:34):
With evidence-based meditationsand ancient wisdom.
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
Welcome everyone to the Mindfulness Exercises
Podcast.
My name is Sean Fargo.
And today I have the honor ofspeaking with a very dedicated
practitioner and author of theDharma of Healing, which we'll
be talking about today.
Speaking with Justin Michelson,who is a teacher in the Insight
(01:12):
Meditation tradition with over20 years of training at Spirit
Rock Meditation Center, InsightMeditation Society, and quite a
few other centers.
He's the founder and leadteacher for two meditation
centers based in Eugene, Oregon,called Nature's Heart and the
(01:34):
Eugene Insight MeditationCenter.
His root teacher is RodneySmith, I believe Rodney's
teacher, correct me if I'mwrong, Justin, but was Ajahn
Buddha Dasa, one of thepreeminent elders of the Thai
forest tradition out ofThailand.
(01:55):
One of the great masters of the20th century, who I highly
revere.
So we share similar lineage, I'dsay.
So I'm really looking forward todiving into our conversation.
But Justin is an author of newbook published out of Penguin
Random House and Shambhalapublications.
(02:18):
The book is called The Dharma ofHealing: The Path of Liberation
from Stress, Pain, and Trauma.
So I think a lot of ears areperking up right now.
It's not every day we get a booklike this where we connect the
dots of Buddhism and insightpractice with pain and trauma
(02:41):
and stress.
But the Dharma of Healing is asignificant book, some people
call a handbook for spiritualfreedom in this age of global
crisis that we're going through.
The world is in turmoil becauseof its trauma, and our unhealed
psychological wounds block ourinnate expressions of wisdom and
(03:05):
compassion, setting the stagefor ongoing conflict, division
and stress.
And our fate, both individualand collective, lies in our
capacity to heal emotionally andspiritually, and for that we
need to remember the power,resilience, and essential
(03:25):
goodness in our own hearts.
Justin Michelson walks readersthrough an ingeniously simple
approach to healing andspiritual insight using a unique
and powerful form ofself-compassion rooted in
Buddhist wisdom.
The book includes thirty-ninedifferent guided meditations
(03:50):
that walk readers step by stepthrough their inner journey,
providing everything that'sneeded to confidently walk our
path to healing ourselves.
Justin Michelson, thank you somuch for joining me today in
conversation.
It's a pleasure meeting you.
SPEAKER_03 (04:08):
Yeah, it's great to be here and nice to meet you as
well.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
So reading a little bit about you, it looks like
your meditation and mindfulnesspractice started at a relatively
early age.
Can you talk about when you wereintroduced to meditation and
what that was like for you?
SPEAKER_03 (04:26):
Yeah, sure.
I was fortunate to be invited toa class for teenagers,
specifically when I was 15 by mymother.
And this class was led by RodneySmith, who remains my teacher
today.
And this was up in Seattle,Washington.
And so I by it was just perfecttiming.
I was raised Christian, but bythat point excited to find
(04:48):
alternatives.
And it sounded very exotic andinteresting, this meditation
back in, I guess it was 2000.
So I gathered up my high schoolfriends and 10 minutes he did
with the group of us.
But I came out of that and I washooked.
Yeah, I was just something, wow,I'm gonna I'm gonna keep doing
this.
It was exactly what washappening at the time, but
looking back, it makes a lot ofsense.
(05:09):
Being in high school and havingto deal with all the fitting in
and figuring out who you are andhow you present yourself, just
kind of complicated andburdensome.
And to have someone just say,just sit down and just breathe
and just be who you are feltlike a great relief at that
time.
And I was a nature lover alreadyat that time.
(05:30):
And so I thought, oh, this iswhat the trees do.
They just sit there and theyjust be who they are, whether
they're sick or they'remagnificent or they're just
proud and emanating this sort ofauthenticity.
So I thought, oh wow, this makessense.
I'm not sure if Rodney said anyof those things exactly.
Yeah, that's kind of one littlestory into the first times, but
(05:51):
I kept going and kept going.
And I was sure I would finishthe path in just a few years,
but uh to lip to enlightenment.
Yeah, right.
At least, you know, whateverenlightened enough to stop, you
know, and be like, okay, Ifinished.
Check that box.
Right.
But yeah, it turns out it was adifferent journey than I
(06:11):
thought, sort of a anever-ending journey of sorts,
ever-deepening journey.
So here I am still on it andyeah, happy to share.
SPEAKER_01 (06:19):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
Yeah, I think a lot of us maybego into some of these practices
with a productivity mindset oran accomplishing mindset.
And, you know, we're trying toget to 15 minutes or 60 minutes
of sitting or lower my stresslevel, and then I'll be all
(06:43):
good.
We realize that, as you said,it's about sustained being,
sustained awareness.
I'm curious how the practiceswent for you over time, like
what practices called to you?
You mentioned breathing and justbeing.
What were some of the practiceseither through Rodney or other
(07:06):
teachers that you felt reallyresonant with?
And I'm curious about maybe oneor two of the first, say, bends
in your journey that happenedwhere you realized, oh, this is
not gonna be quite as smooth asI thought it might be.
SPEAKER_03 (07:24):
Yeah, I mean, the first way that I was taught to
practice was simply just to bemindful of the breath.
And that has deep roots in theBuddhist tradition.
And some people, that's theirentire practice, and that's
wonderful.
And for me, it was generallyjust paying attention to the
whole process of breathing inand out and the whole body as it
breathes, as opposed to justfocusing on, say, the tip of my
(07:45):
nose or something like that.
Well, I was naturally kind ofinstructed by Rodney, but also
naturally inclined towards amore spacious type of attention.
So my attention would tend towant to expand, and especially
if I was out in nature, which Ilove to do at that time, and
still just having a sense of thepresence of nature around me,
expanding my attention reallynaturally, or just hearing the
(08:08):
birds, whatever might beexpanding.
So it was started with thebreath, but it became pretty
quickly a more spacious orexpansive awareness and settling
into just being.
I don't know if other peoplehave a similar experience, but
at first that simple practicewas just kind of everything,
just being with the breath andjust being, and it cut through
(08:28):
so much.
I'd say the first seven years ofmy practice were more in my like
evangelical phase where I'm justlike, meditation will solve
everything.
I think I had the power of now,and I was like giving it out to
everybody.
But it was, it was magic.
And there's things so much I letgo of that I didn't even know I
was letting go of.
So I had like a little moremagical and simple version of it
(08:50):
at first.
And then yeah, there was somerude awakenings as I hit deeper
layers of the mind and heart.
I say the first big one of thosewas I was living out in Maui at
retreat center out there in myearly 20s.
And for whatever reason, I juststarted getting a lot of
tension, somatic tension in mybody.
And I was thinking to myself,well, I need to go to a yoga
(09:12):
class and learn some yogapositions, and maybe that'll
help.
And I ended up at a kundaliniyoga class, which I didn't know
what it was.
And I did one class, and Iremember afterwards the teacher
was like, Oh, wow, that reallygot you.
I was like, I didn't know whatshe meant, but I ended up having
this big deep terror fearexperiences, whatever they call
it, kundalini energy orwhatever.
(09:34):
For months after that, and itwas like a big humbling
experience.
I was just like, oh my god.
And you don't want to analyzethat experience too much, but
say, like, you know, I'm justhitting deeper layers of mind or
the deeper existential terror orum grief.
SPEAKER_01 (09:50):
Was the terror like a physical manifestation or was
there like a mental fear thatarose too?
SPEAKER_03 (09:58):
It was both.
Uh-huh.
And they would feed off eachother.
So it was just kind of like alot of constriction around
letting things go out of mycontrol at a much deeper level.
It's like, okay, yeah, I have arelatively controlled meditation
practice.
I have these results I'm seeing.
And it's like, whoa, actually,when it comes down to it, I am
deeply attached to the waythings are going in my life and
(10:20):
my body.
So I think it's just like deepermovement.
But I mean, it was too much, itwas overwhelming.
So that's another big learningpoint.
Because at that point, I wasjust had young man warrior
energy and was like, I'm gonnado this thing.
And life was sort of like, yeah,that's that energy will get you
so far, but there's somethingmuch bigger than you happening
here, and you sort of have tobow to it in a certain way,
(10:42):
surrender to it.
So that was just one of I'd saymany similar points throughout
my twenties that was like veryhumbling and kind of ended up
rerouving my path towards moreemotional healing and trying to
merge that with the Dharma thatI had known, which is a lot of
where this book comes from.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
You mentioned feeling that young warrior
energy when you started thepractice, and then you learned
for that type of say Kundalinienergy experience that you felt
that you really needed to bow toit.
I'm wondering if you would beable to share with our listeners
(11:21):
some tips or invitations forlearning how to bow to something
that may feel so scary.
I think a lot of people step upin their warrior energy out of
feeling of a need to control itor resist it or change it
quickly.
So I love that expression ofbowing to it.
(11:44):
Can you share maybe some ideasfor how people can do that in a
time when it could feel soterrorizing?
SPEAKER_03 (11:51):
Yeah, well, you know, I think it's so individual
in a given moment.
I want to say keep everything onthe table.
You know.
I'm still recovering from a veryintense health journey over the
last 15, 16 months.
And sometimes you do everythingyou can in your power to change
your circumstances, whetherthat's a treatment or that's
(12:12):
getting out of a relationship orchanging a job, or sometimes you
just do what you need to do, andit's not spiritual at all.
It doesn't necessarily feel thatway, right?
And then other times it's like,oh, this is a time just to bow
and to listen and to wait and tolet it wash over me.
Keep all your cards on yourtable, all your tools.
There isn't any response that'sinherently aspiritual, or
(12:34):
sometimes we need lots ofdifferent things depending on
our situation.
To keep it in the context of myspiritual practice in my
history, sometimes it is that ifyou resonate with bowing and
putting those two hands togetherand putting your head down and
letting it not just be about youin that moment.
There's something a lot greaterthat I don't understand that's
happening in this moment, inthis world, in this universe,
(12:56):
and just to withhold judgmentfor a moment, because there's an
inherent arrogance in that, thatwe think we know what's
happening, what should behappening.
And say, okay, we'll withholdthat for a moment and just wait
and listen.
And usually there's somethingelse that comes in that informs
us in a way that helps us relaxand be at ease a little bit
more.
On a practical level, to answeryour question is sort of what
(13:17):
the book is is trying toprovide.
It's a whole series ofself-compassion exercises of
different types, including thetype of self-compassion where
you just allow yourself to beheld.
Allow yourself to be held bysomething greater than you.
Maybe sort of a broad answerthere, but we can drill a little
deeper.
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Yeah, I like this theme of how you're connecting
with nature, connecting withsomething greater.
It's not just about you.
There's this connection withspaciousness and the natural
world and spirit.
A lot of our listeners live inmaybe dense cities.
(13:57):
And there aren't these continuedreminders of our natural world
in a lived experience withsocial media and screens and
everything, it's so easy to getcaught up in all these stories
and reactivity.
I'm wondering if you could talka little bit about, say, your
relationship with nature as asupport for your mindfulness and
(14:23):
dharma path and how you relatethat to healing.
SPEAKER_03 (14:27):
I mean, firstly, for those folks that are not
surrounded by nature or don'thave access, I think it can be
really hard.
A lot of what I write about ishow relating to our own
challenges with a real sinceretype of compassion is a
liberating experience in and ofitself.
So I do think that whatever itmight be, whether it's our
distance from nature, whateverchallenging conditions we have,
(14:49):
if we can be with them with areal wholeheartedness, real
care, that can be a refuge forus as well.
So I just want to note thatdistance from nature, I think,
is a pretty big component as towhy a lot of us struggle, or at
least a lot of our normalhabitual tendencies get
overactive and exacerbated.
(15:09):
So we don't have a lot of goodrole models.
And when I say role models, likethe trees.
We don't have a lot of good rolemodels.
I'm looking outside my window,you know, fortunately, and able
to see a lot of these beans.
And I mean it very literally.
Immediately, I'm like, oh, okay,yeah, that's a way to live,
right?
Is just to stand tall and toreach to the sky and just sort
of almost a prayerfulness in away that I see the plants and
(15:32):
trees live.
And so I'm reminded, right?
I'm gonna remind them of thatpart of me.
If we say everything'sinterconnected, which I think we
would all agree, then very muchis a part of me, that version of
me that's like a tree.
It's inside me as well.
So, anyway, good to have goodrole models.
Um in terms of how that relatesto healing, I'd say the most
(15:53):
obvious way to me is the supportthat we feel or the support that
one can feel.
I take people out into natureand we meditate together, and
not everyone's comfortable outthere.
But as you do develop ease in anatural setting and relax, most
people do feel quite readily thesupport of the natural world.
And that's maybe enigmatic sortof thing.
(16:14):
It might be the elements, maybethe wind as it moves through
your hair, the sun on your face,or it might actually be some
other creature, some otheranimal that you see that sees
you, and you sort of remembersomething about yourself.
Regardless, this feeling ofwe're a part of something larger
than ourselves and we're beingheld by that, that tends to
create a feeling of safety andconnection within ourselves.
(16:36):
That to me is sort of the basisof emotional healing, but also
of spiritual insight.
So that safety and connection isa real touchstone.
SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
You wrote this book to help a lot of people to heal.
I'm wondering about what you'refinding in terms of how people
are unhealed.
That's a great way of puttingit.
But like you talk about safetyand connection as something we
(17:06):
can say learn from nature, butthey're integral into Dharma
practice and insight practiceand meditation.
I'm wondering if you could talkabout the ways that people are
not feeling safe or connectedthese days.
What practices, some of theguided meditations that you
(17:27):
share that can help people toheal their sense of not being
safe or not feeling safe, or notfeeling connected.
How are you seeing thatmanifested these days?
The people who are reallystruggling?
SPEAKER_03 (17:43):
It's an incredibly tough time in the world for a
lot of people.
There's a lot of reason thatpeople don't feel safe and don't
feel connected.
So I want to first start by justvalidating that that's
understandable.
Everyone can validate that bythemselves.
Like, I don't feel safe andconnected.
You don't want to blameyourself.
I should be able to if I wasjust spiritual enough or just
had the right practice, then Iwould.
(18:04):
No, and maybe Justin's practice.
Start with actually connectingto whatever that pain is, that
lack is, that lack of safety andconnection, the lack of having
what you need or want in yourlife.
And that's the touch point tobegin the healing.
So just noticing that firstbefore we get off on our healing
journey to turn the attentionback around and say, okay,
what's my motivation for evenjoining this?
(18:26):
Because a lot of our unconsciousmotivation is just aversion to
pain.
We don't want to be in painanymore.
We don't want to beuncomfortable anymore.
I am right there with you.
And if that is our primarydriving force, it's an ancient
force in our psyches.
And if that is the leadingforce, well, it's going to
prolong our suffering.
It's going to get us intotrouble.
A premise of how I frame mypractices is that we need to
(18:51):
lead with the opposite ofaversion to what's unpleasant.
We need to lead with compassionfor what's unpleasant.
And that we can work from there,we're going to slowly restore
safety and connection.
So zooming out a little bit, mytake is that we each receive a
lot of blows from life.
You know, we get hurt.
And we get hurt before we'reeven able to talk about what it
(19:12):
means to be hurt.
And we hold these wounds in ourbody because we didn't feel safe
enough to process them, becausewe whatever we didn't have the
right conditions in our familylife or in the culture.
And so we just hold a lot in ourbodies, a lot more than we often
realize, and we pack it allaway.
Then we get introduced to thespiritual path, and we say, oh,
this is the way out of all ofthat.
(19:32):
And we think that we can getaround it somehow instead of
having to go back down throughit all.
But we can't go back downthrough it all by trying to put
on some spiritual image ofourselves or some fancy
technique and practice.
And it has to often just be areal humble willingness to
approach our own messiness andour own uncertainty of what even
(19:53):
lives inside of us.
There's so much we don't knowabout the world, so much we
don't know about the what thebottoms of the oceans and the
universe.
But there's a whole lot we don'tknow about what's in our own
hearts and minds.
So this humble and caringapproach to our own emotional
lives is what I tend toprescribe.
When we're young, we're relianton the circumstances around us
almost entirely to providesafety and connection for us.
(20:14):
But as adults, we're tasked nowwith this responsibility to say,
how do we create this forourselves when the outer
circumstances aren't safe andconnected or aren't safe or
threatening in some way?
How do we start to create arefuge for ourselves inside of
ourselves?
You know, I'm offering a lot ofbasic compassion practices,
although they're kind offine-tuned, this particular type
(20:37):
of compassion, I think, is mosthelpful, but really showing up
for ourselves in ways thatcreate internal safety and
connection that make usresilient to the outward crises
that surround us.
Hopefully you could follow allthat.
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
Yeah, yeah.
There's a lot of love there.
Do you sense, say, love innature?
You know, it's easy to senseinto being and restfulness and
relaxation.
I guess through what connection?
But I'm curious if there's asense of benevolence in the
natural world that you connectwith, or if that's a part of how
(21:12):
you relate to your role modelsoutside.
SPEAKER_03 (21:15):
That's one of my favorite questions, left uh kind
of like a co-on or a riddle.
Where do you find kindness innature?
Or where do you find love innature?
It's interesting to ask that toa group and to hear what's
there, whatever reason coming tomind is one of the two things I
said earlier, wind blowingthrough the hair or sunshine on
your face, or these momentswhere it just it touches you and
(21:38):
you feel held and you feel joycome up in the presence of being
held.
So is that inherent in nature,or it's in the relationships
that are in nature, right?
So I guess that would be more mygeneral answers.
The love is in theinterrelatedness, the way that
we all depend on each other, themutual indebtedness we have to
(21:58):
one another.
I'm only breathing because thetrees are breathing in the
opposite chemicals, right?
So that I can live.
And there's so many other waysevery spoon of food I put in my
mouth, right, is a mutualindebtedness that I'm incurring,
and I indeed will give my bodyback, and hopefully much more
than my body I'm trying to giveback.
(22:19):
Yeah, so I think that's wherefor me the heart of the love is,
but the individual experiencespeople have are so varied and
they're just are like an oldgrowth tree.
Just I'm not sure what it is.
For me, really, when you getdown to the bottom of it, it's
that anything exists at all thatis why love is at the center of
everything.
Which is like a riddle ofitself, but it's like, how else
(22:41):
could this beautiful oak tree bestanding here if it wasn't for
love?
I don't know what else it wouldbe.
And so there's sort of a someessential goodness in the
creative essence of life itselfthat's expressed in all these
forms.
And I think that's what reallykind of gets me most
essentially.
SPEAKER_01 (22:58):
Beautiful.
In addition to your teaching andwriting, you also own and
operate the native edible plantnursery outside of Eugene,
Oregon.
I've never heard of an edibleplant nursery to begin with.
What is that?
And I'm guessing that this isconnected with your spiritual
(23:21):
practice, your dharma.
And so I'm wondering if youcould talk about that possible
connection.
SPEAKER_03 (23:26):
Yeah, in 2017, I started a nursery called Native
Foods Nursery.
And it was a reflection of mylove and ongoing curiosity
around the native plants of mostof the Northwest where I live,
but also the western UnitedStates in general.
And in particular, the plantsthat are native and edible.
(23:46):
Sometimes they're not veryedible.
I mean, sometimes they're notdelicious, and other times
they're actually pretty darngood.
But it's a sort of a tribute tothe plants of this area that
have really not got as muchattention.
Most of the plants that we eatand cultivate are old world
plants.
They're from Europe or Eurasia.
And there's a lot of beautifulplants.
Well, just a lot of people knowthe Huckleberry, maybe.
(24:08):
There's a lot of wonderfulhuckleberry species out here.
They're sort of likeblueberries, but they haven't
really been cultivated.
Anyhow, so bringing attention insome of the beauty of this
region and educating peopleabout that online via our
website.
But yeah, for me, in a spiritualsense, it's like, how can I get
80 of my best friends to livewith me?
Why don't I start a nursery andpropagate 80 different species
(24:31):
of native plants?
SPEAKER_01 (24:33):
Your friends being the plants.
SPEAKER_03 (24:35):
Exactly, right?
This is sort of like family.
There's a sense of family andthis inner relatedness or this
mutual indebtedness that I'mspeaking to.
So, oh hi, I know you are.
There's a plant called Salal.
It's a low-growing evergreenshrub that I walk by a lot of
different plants of Salal, forexample, say, Oh, hi.
There's this relatedness beingtogether in this dance of life.
(24:57):
And so, yeah, what an amazingthing to grow these plants and
to take care of these plants andthen to offer them to other
people to get to know them sothat they once again hopefully
can feel more connected to theplaces that they live, even if
it's in the city or the suburbs.
We have people buying in thoseplaces, and it's a little piece
of the environment that was backwith them.
(25:18):
It's sort of a little piece ofthemselves back there with them
that they're caring for.
And it's in that relationshipthat magic happens.
And that might just be likestress relief.
They're gardening.
It feels good to be outside andbe, you know, water my plant.
And there's also somethingdeeper, more spiritual there, I
think, that's happening.
For me, that's what it was.
And is, I mean, unfortunately,running a business requires a
(25:38):
lot of it's not just a funspiritual time with the point.
Requires much more time on thecomputer than I would have ever
imagined.
But nonetheless, that's sort ofthe spirit of it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:49):
A lot of people say they have spirit animals.
I'm wondering if you have aspirit plant or animal.
Right.
I wouldn't say I have a singleone.
No.
But you have a lot of friends.
Yeah, I've gained a lot offriends.
In your book, which I highlyrecommend, you talk about the
four turnings of the wheel ofhealing.
(26:10):
Four turnings, being likesurface, depth, collective, and
universal.
Can you talk about the fourturnings and how it relates to
our healing and kind of give anoverview for people on what that
means?
SPEAKER_03 (26:25):
Yeah, the first part of the book is the theory of a
lot of things I'm talking about,why healing's important on the
spiritual path, emotionalhealing, and then what the
process of that could look like.
And then the second part of thebook is all the practices, all
the guided meditations that Idivide up into four different
sections, and those I'm callingturnings, turning of the wheel
of healing, kind of a playoff ofturning the wheel of the dharma.
(26:49):
I basically put self-compassionpractices into four different
categories.
And the first is sendingourselves compassion, sending
the surface level part of ourself-compassion.
It's like the day-to-day ups anddowns, like, oh, I don't feel
that well today, or my stomachkind of hurts, or something
didn't go well at work, or thesesort of like ongoing, simple but
(27:11):
challenging things.
And the surface layer of ourhearts, that's just like outer
part of our personality, is kindof like, I like this, I don't
want this.
Kind of reacting to situations,learn how to soothe ourselves so
that when these inevitabledisappointments and challenges
happen, that we're right therewith a hand on our heart saying,
I see you, I understand, I careabout you, I'm here to support
(27:33):
you.
We're just speaking to ourselvesand learning to be kind to
ourselves.
And so that's the first turningis kind of the surface level and
getting the hang of the practiceand a guide through that.
And then the second is kind of adeeper plunge into our
subconscious.
I mentioned some of theexperiences in my path, just the
deeper fears that we have, orthe deeper shame or the grief we
(27:53):
might have in our own lives orabout the world, and touching
into those places, which can bereally tender.
And we often need a more safeand controlled environment to go
there, or we need moreconfidence in our practice to go
there.
So building up to that and thenwith the first turning and then
going into these second turningpractices.
And most of all, those types ofwounds need a more wholehearted
(28:15):
devotion.
They need a more wholeheartedcompassion and gratitude than
the simple day-to-daychallenges.
So that's the second turning isdiving into that.
And then the third is spiralingback out a little bit and having
compassion for the ways in whichour own wounds have been and are
and will be co-created byfamily, by culture, by nature,
(28:38):
even by our sort of evolutionarypast.
So it's using self-compassion inthe more impersonal way, seeing
how everything we hold in ourbodies that constricts us has
been co-created.
It's actually not just ours.
In fact, there's quite a bit ofit we can set down because it's
not ours.
It's like, okay, well, I'm gonnagive that back to my lineage,
(28:58):
give that back to the culturethat imprinted that on me,
right?
So that's the third turn, sortof this bigger sense of who we
are and how we've been formedand offering compassion to that.
And then the fourth is this moreuniversal layer, being held by
something benevolent that's muchgreater than us, and actually
experiencing compassion fromsomething greater than us and
(29:20):
resting all of our effortingtowards healing and spiritual
growth and just entering more ofa state of being, I guess you
could say silence, stillness,spaciousness.
So that's more what the fourthturning is about.
And then starting back overagain.
SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
The wheel keeps turning.
SPEAKER_03 (29:36):
Through that process, naturally coming to the
center of the wheel.
You could say coming to a placewhere those four different
turnings or aspects of healingand spiritual growth are all one
thing.
They're all that's like aholograph.
Each is the other, and have amore unified sense or a whole
integral sense of who we are asboth a human and a spiritual
(29:57):
being, healing and spiritualinsight as one.
So that's kind of theculmination of the journey as
it's framed.
SPEAKER_01 (30:04):
Beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
A lot of people who arepracticing self-compassion run
into this self-aversion.
There's many reasons for that, Ithink.
There's a lot of shame thatcomes up.
We feel like we may not beworthy or good enough, we
haven't accomplished enough,we're not as good as someone
(30:27):
else, or other people deserve itmore.
You know, I'll be okay.
You frame self-aversion as akind of psychological autoimmune
response.
And I thought that that phrasewas quite interesting, that this
self-aversion is a kind ofpsychological autoimmune
(30:50):
response.
Can you talk about what youmeant by that and just kind of
unpack that metaphor a littlebit?
SPEAKER_03 (30:56):
The easiest way to figure out what emotional
healing work we have to do is tostart a self-compassion practice
like this.
And often we'll find right awaywhat we're aversive to.
We'll attempt to say some kindphrases to ourselves and then
some other part of us will arguewith it, or we'll shut down, or
we'll kind of find where ouredges are around it, or we'll
(31:17):
find pieces that feel they theyaren't worthy.
So I just say that to say partof self-compassion practice is
all of that other stuff.
It's inevitable, it's expected,it's actually what you want to
be coming up because then youknow what to be with, what to
focus on, what to help, what tosupport.
So just to normalize that andvalidate that.
But yeah, from that metaphorcomes from a larger perspective
(31:41):
that aversion is just an ancientand necessary impulse within our
biological and psychologicalselves from millions and
millions of years ago that weshare with all other sentient
beings, that when somethinghurts, you try to pull away from
it and get some distance fromit, or something doesn't serve
you.
You can see that from one cellorganisms all the way to these
(32:02):
complex creatures likeourselves.
And so we hold a really ancientinstinct, and it's helped us in
a lot of ways that a lot oftimes it's just that for most,
if not all, other creatures thatI'm aware of, they never turn it
on themselves.
So it's like we want to moveaway from that which hurts us in
the outside environment.
But humans in the creation ofour complex brains, at some
(32:24):
point along the way, developed acapacity to have aversion
towards our own innerexperiences because those too
were painful.
And this is part of what makesus complex and what makes us
store so much trauma compared toother animals is that we have a
capacity to stow away this painand then have a capacity to be
(32:45):
aversive to that pain that wehave stowed away within our own
bodies.
And that aversion might be ahatred, it might be a
self-hatred, or it might be afear.
I don't know what that fear,that pain is in me, but I don't
even want to go there.
All understandable stuff, butjust like an autoimmune disease
is sort of the immune systemoverreacting to parts of the
(33:06):
body that are actually your own,right?
The immune system's supposed toonly interact or attack foreign
invaders, so to speak, but it'sattacking our own cells.
And in the same way,psychologically, we're attacking
our own wounds.
Our wounds are stuffed down inus, just needing attention,
care.
And instead of offering that, weunconsciously are beating
(33:27):
ourselves up.
That's what I meant by thatautoimmune response.
But it's a fascinating thing.
And I think it's a key mechanismthat explains why there is so
much trauma still within each ofus and in the world itself.
It's just the way our minds andhearts became wired over our
evolution.
SPEAKER_01 (33:45):
It reminds me of an old book.
I think it's called Why ZebrasDon't Get Ucers.
Have you heard of this?
Heard of it.
I haven't read it though.
Yeah.
They return to physical safetyafter a say a scary event of
maybe a leopard chasing them orsomething like that.
The zebras will shake it out,shake out the stress in their
(34:05):
bodies and wiggle their tail.
And I walk my puppy everymorning, and after she chases a
squirrel and then calms down,she shakes it off.
A couple months ago, I won araffle for my daughter, like a
five-foot-tall stuffed giraffethat has like rainbow dots on
it.
And it's standing so regal rightin front of me right now.
(34:29):
Looking upwards.
I imagine the even the stuffyshakes out its trauma sometimes.
Thank you for sharing thatreally fascinating, unique way
of what humans do of storing thetrauma in their bodies for so
long and then become averse toit.
It's a little ironic.
So a lot of people who arelistening are people who help
(34:53):
others.
So there's a lot of counselorsand coaches and yoga teachers
and therapists who dedicatetheir lives to helping other
people.
And I think a lot of us who dothat do so because we've been on
our own healing journeys,dedicated a lot of our attention
(35:15):
towards how we heal as people.
And we find different modalitiesand things that we can share to
help others to pay it forwardand share what we've learned.
I'm wondering if you could talkabout your process of becoming a
teacher.
Say what you started teaching inthe beginning, any lessons that
(35:39):
you've learned or tips that youcan share for others, and how
you hold that concurrently withyour own continued healing with
this ever-turning wheel ofhealing.
While still wearing the hat as ateacher at the same time.
SPEAKER_03 (35:58):
Yeah.
That's a big topic.
I tend to coach folks of allsorts to find something in their
life that feeds them and feedsthe world, you know, when
they're trying to figure outwhat's my calling, what am I
supposed to do?
So I would hope that folks thatare healers, teachers of
different sorts, that are yourlisteners, you know, have come
to that place in a way thatfeels good to them when they are
(36:20):
helping others that it servesthem or supports them and their
practice in some way.
So for me, moving into being ateacher in the insight
meditation tradition became abig evolution in my own growth.
In my journey as a student, itwas just another step along that
path.
Because every time I have to tryto articulate my own experience
(36:40):
and share it with others, I seeit in a new way.
I see it in a deeper way.
Every time someone asks me aquestion, I have to reassess.
And everyone, all of us noticeover time is that our answers
will change over time.
Which is kind of a funny thingabout writing a book because
what are we going to think ofthis book in 10 years?
I don't know.
We'll see.
Even when it's been a year sinceI've finished the final draft, I
(37:02):
still wouldn't have said thingsexactly the same way.
So this paradoxicalacknowledgement that we are
always changing, alwaysevolving, always learning, at
least we are regardless.
We may or may not admit it toourselves or to others.
And at the same time, all of ushave something we can offer.
Yeah, I mean, you see that inany group experience that I
(37:23):
lead, and there's so much wisdomin the room.
And at the same time, I'mguiding it and I'm offering my
own perspective, but trying todo so in a way that acknowledges
that, hey, I don't knoweverything.
This is just one perspective.
This is one tool for yourtoolkit.
And you have a lot of wisdom inyourself.
And in fact, all of these thingsI'm offering are really only
(37:44):
there to try to have youremember and realize your own
wisdom and compassion that isinnate to you.
That's not dependent on me.
I think as a teacher, as ahealer or whatever, the more we
can empower the people we workwith with tools, but really more
than that, with thatself-confidence in their own
connection to everything theyneed to know.
(38:06):
Then that helps all of us,right?
Hey, I'm a teacher stilllearning.
I want to offer this.
And if people are showing up tolisten, that's great.
And I want to make sure you allknow that you have what you need
to continue on the path.
And then we can learn together.
And so that's where the magicreally is for me in it, is that
like, I don't think I'd ratherbe anywhere else but practicing
self-compassion in a group ofpeople together.
(38:28):
It's sort of like I said withthe plant nursery.
It's like, I just wanted to getmy friends together.
Why don't we just get together,go out in nature, and do the
only thing worth doing, which isjust to care for what is in
front of us together, to do whatis impossible together, right?
I have such big visions.
Oh, we're gonna heal the world,we're gonna turn this thing
around, we're gonna awaken toour true nature.
(38:49):
And then we get slammed withlife and with deep wounds that
we have.
And so, in a way, it feelsimpossible at times.
But you know, the only way wecan do what's impossible is to
do it together and to do ithumbly and the amount of
strength we get from that andthe amount of inspiration we get
from each other.
So I want to get my friendstogether and go out in nature,
you know.
So it's more that spirit ofcompanionship on the path that
(39:12):
can be hard in certain contexts.
If everyone's projecting on youthat you're the guru, you're the
teacher, you're the healer.
Well, it is your responsibilityto start to soften those
projections.
They have their value forcertain people at certain times,
but they need to be challengedoften.
You'll notice there's people whoget a lot out of those
projections.
They really need a teacher, theyneed someone to look up to, they
(39:33):
need someone to think isperfect.
And it works for them until theyget to a maturity level where
they're ready to realize thatnobody's perfect and nobody's
finished.
Even the big names out there.
And at that point, then we'refriends in practice together.
Then we're doing the worktogether, evolving this way
beyond ourselves, a time waybeyond ourselves.
(39:53):
It just becomes a bigger ritual,and we're turning these wheels
endlessly with everyone aroundus, but with all the beings of
the past, all the buildings.
Of the past are with us.
They're turning the wheel withus.
The elements, the stars, thegalaxies.
It's part of something biggerwe're doing that we can't and
never will fully understand.
But it's sort of like our dutydoing what we can, which is to
show up in this moment caringfor what is in front of us.
(40:16):
So if we can do it together,it's like, wow, my life feels
more complete.
That's more me as a teacher, youknow.
SPEAKER_01 (40:22):
Yeah.
It resonate with that.
Your book is called The Dharmaof Healing, and it's just kind
of occurring to me that one ofthe translations or meanings of
the word Dharma is nature.
It's like the nature of healing.
It's one possibleinterpretation.
(40:43):
The way things are, truth, whatthe Buddha was pointing to with
his teachings.
I think we're all in this boattogether, in this forest
together.
Why not practice thisself-compassion together?
And speaking of together, howcan people find you?
What do you offer?
And how can people practice withyou?
SPEAKER_03 (41:05):
Yeah.
My website isJustinMichelsondharma.com.
So you can look that up.
I have a Facebook and anInstagram of the same name,
Justin MichelsonDharma.
And I'm outside of Eugene,Oregon.
That's where I'm stationed.
And there's some retreats Ioffer locally in Oregon here and
also some online offerings.
(41:27):
So people can check those outand join me.
And I'd love to continue thedialogue.
SPEAKER_01 (41:31):
Beautiful.
Looks like you offer groupmentorship.
So we'll post links to Justin'swebsite in the show notes and on
our website,JustinMichelsondharma.com.
We'll also post a link to thebook that you can find on
Amazon, Shimbala Publications,Barnes and Noble, etc.
(41:53):
Looks like you have some niceofferings on your website.
So I highly encourage people tocheck out Justin's book, The
Dharma of Healing.
Tara Brock wrote a nice blurbfor it.
Justin, thank you so much foryour warm-hearted presence
today, your teachings andofferings today, and really just
(42:14):
appreciate the approach and theperspective that you have on
practice.
I think this is going to behelpful for a lot of people out
there.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (42:23):
Yeah, you're very welcome.
It's great to meet you, and Ilove to talk about it.
So I'm happy for all thosequestions you asked me.
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
The Mindfulness Exercises Podcast.
May this be a source ofinspiration and motivation in
your mindfulness practice andteachings.
Remember to subscribe so youdon't miss an episode.
Welcome to the Mindfulness Exercises Podcast.
A show to help you live moremindfully and inspire others to
do the same.
Go beyond listening.
And dive deeper intomindfulness.
(00:34):
With evidence-based meditationsand ancient wisdom.
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
Welcome everyone to the Mindfulness Exercises
Podcast.
My name is Sean Fargo.
And today I have the honor ofspeaking with a very dedicated
practitioner and author of theDharma of Healing, which we'll
be talking about today.
Speaking with Justin Michelson,who is a teacher in the Insight
(01:12):
Meditation tradition with over20 years of training at Spirit
Rock Meditation Center, InsightMeditation Society, and quite a
few other centers.
He's the founder and leadteacher for two meditation
centers based in Eugene, Oregon,called Nature's Heart and the
(01:34):
Eugene Insight MeditationCenter.
His root teacher is RodneySmith, I believe Rodney's
teacher, correct me if I'mwrong, Justin, but was Ajahn
Buddha Dasa, one of thepreeminent elders of the Thai
forest tradition out ofThailand.
(01:55):
One of the great masters of the20th century, who I highly
revere.
So we share similar lineage, I'dsay.
So I'm really looking forward todiving into our conversation.
But Justin is an author of newbook published out of Penguin
Random House and Shambhalapublications.
(02:18):
The book is called The Dharma ofHealing: The Path of Liberation
from Stress, Pain, and Trauma.
So I think a lot of ears areperking up right now.
It's not every day we get a booklike this where we connect the
dots of Buddhism and insightpractice with pain and trauma
(02:41):
and stress.
But the Dharma of Healing is asignificant book, some people
call a handbook for spiritualfreedom in this age of global
crisis that we're going through.
The world is in turmoil becauseof its trauma, and our unhealed
psychological wounds block ourinnate expressions of wisdom and
(03:05):
compassion, setting the stagefor ongoing conflict, division
and stress.
And our fate, both individualand collective, lies in our
capacity to heal emotionally andspiritually, and for that we
need to remember the power,resilience, and essential
(03:25):
goodness in our own hearts.
Justin Michelson walks readersthrough an ingeniously simple
approach to healing andspiritual insight using a unique
and powerful form ofself-compassion rooted in
Buddhist wisdom.
The book includes thirty-ninedifferent guided meditations
(03:50):
that walk readers step by stepthrough their inner journey,
providing everything that'sneeded to confidently walk our
path to healing ourselves.
Justin Michelson, thank you somuch for joining me today in
conversation.
It's a pleasure meeting you.
SPEAKER_03 (04:08):
Yeah, it's great to be here and nice to meet you as
well.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
So reading a little bit about you, it looks like
your meditation and mindfulnesspractice started at a relatively
early age.
Can you talk about when you wereintroduced to meditation and
what that was like for you?
SPEAKER_03 (04:26):
Yeah, sure.
I was fortunate to be invited toa class for teenagers,
specifically when I was 15 by mymother.
And this class was led by RodneySmith, who remains my teacher
today.
And this was up in Seattle,Washington.
And so I by it was just perfecttiming.
I was raised Christian, but bythat point excited to find
(04:48):
alternatives.
And it sounded very exotic andinteresting, this meditation
back in, I guess it was 2000.
So I gathered up my high schoolfriends and 10 minutes he did
with the group of us.
But I came out of that and I washooked.
Yeah, I was just something, wow,I'm gonna I'm gonna keep doing
this.
It was exactly what washappening at the time, but
looking back, it makes a lot ofsense.
(05:09):
Being in high school and havingto deal with all the fitting in
and figuring out who you are andhow you present yourself, just
kind of complicated andburdensome.
And to have someone just say,just sit down and just breathe
and just be who you are feltlike a great relief at that
time.
And I was a nature lover alreadyat that time.
(05:30):
And so I thought, oh, this iswhat the trees do.
They just sit there and theyjust be who they are, whether
they're sick or they'remagnificent or they're just
proud and emanating this sort ofauthenticity.
So I thought, oh wow, this makessense.
I'm not sure if Rodney said anyof those things exactly.
Yeah, that's kind of one littlestory into the first times, but
(05:51):
I kept going and kept going.
And I was sure I would finishthe path in just a few years,
but uh to lip to enlightenment.
Yeah, right.
At least, you know, whateverenlightened enough to stop, you
know, and be like, okay, Ifinished.
Check that box.
Right.
But yeah, it turns out it was adifferent journey than I
(06:11):
thought, sort of a anever-ending journey of sorts,
ever-deepening journey.
So here I am still on it andyeah, happy to share.
SPEAKER_01 (06:19):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
Yeah, I think a lot of us maybego into some of these practices
with a productivity mindset oran accomplishing mindset.
And, you know, we're trying toget to 15 minutes or 60 minutes
of sitting or lower my stresslevel, and then I'll be all
(06:43):
good.
We realize that, as you said,it's about sustained being,
sustained awareness.
I'm curious how the practiceswent for you over time, like
what practices called to you?
You mentioned breathing and justbeing.
What were some of the practiceseither through Rodney or other
(07:06):
teachers that you felt reallyresonant with?
And I'm curious about maybe oneor two of the first, say, bends
in your journey that happenedwhere you realized, oh, this is
not gonna be quite as smooth asI thought it might be.
SPEAKER_03 (07:24):
Yeah, I mean, the first way that I was taught to
practice was simply just to bemindful of the breath.
And that has deep roots in theBuddhist tradition.
And some people, that's theirentire practice, and that's
wonderful.
And for me, it was generallyjust paying attention to the
whole process of breathing inand out and the whole body as it
breathes, as opposed to justfocusing on, say, the tip of my
(07:45):
nose or something like that.
Well, I was naturally kind ofinstructed by Rodney, but also
naturally inclined towards amore spacious type of attention.
So my attention would tend towant to expand, and especially
if I was out in nature, which Ilove to do at that time, and
still just having a sense of thepresence of nature around me,
expanding my attention reallynaturally, or just hearing the
(08:08):
birds, whatever might beexpanding.
So it was started with thebreath, but it became pretty
quickly a more spacious orexpansive awareness and settling
into just being.
I don't know if other peoplehave a similar experience, but
at first that simple practicewas just kind of everything,
just being with the breath andjust being, and it cut through
(08:28):
so much.
I'd say the first seven years ofmy practice were more in my like
evangelical phase where I'm justlike, meditation will solve
everything.
I think I had the power of now,and I was like giving it out to
everybody.
But it was, it was magic.
And there's things so much I letgo of that I didn't even know I
was letting go of.
So I had like a little moremagical and simple version of it
(08:50):
at first.
And then yeah, there was somerude awakenings as I hit deeper
layers of the mind and heart.
I say the first big one of thosewas I was living out in Maui at
retreat center out there in myearly 20s.
And for whatever reason, I juststarted getting a lot of
tension, somatic tension in mybody.
And I was thinking to myself,well, I need to go to a yoga
(09:12):
class and learn some yogapositions, and maybe that'll
help.
And I ended up at a kundaliniyoga class, which I didn't know
what it was.
And I did one class, and Iremember afterwards the teacher
was like, Oh, wow, that reallygot you.
I was like, I didn't know whatshe meant, but I ended up having
this big deep terror fearexperiences, whatever they call
it, kundalini energy orwhatever.
(09:34):
For months after that, and itwas like a big humbling
experience.
I was just like, oh my god.
And you don't want to analyzethat experience too much, but
say, like, you know, I'm justhitting deeper layers of mind or
the deeper existential terror orum grief.
SPEAKER_01 (09:50):
Was the terror like a physical manifestation or was
there like a mental fear thatarose too?
SPEAKER_03 (09:58):
It was both.
Uh-huh.
And they would feed off eachother.
So it was just kind of like alot of constriction around
letting things go out of mycontrol at a much deeper level.
It's like, okay, yeah, I have arelatively controlled meditation
practice.
I have these results I'm seeing.
And it's like, whoa, actually,when it comes down to it, I am
deeply attached to the waythings are going in my life and
(10:20):
my body.
So I think it's just like deepermovement.
But I mean, it was too much, itwas overwhelming.
So that's another big learningpoint.
Because at that point, I wasjust had young man warrior
energy and was like, I'm gonnado this thing.
And life was sort of like, yeah,that's that energy will get you
so far, but there's somethingmuch bigger than you happening
here, and you sort of have tobow to it in a certain way,
(10:42):
surrender to it.
So that was just one of I'd saymany similar points throughout
my twenties that was like veryhumbling and kind of ended up
rerouving my path towards moreemotional healing and trying to
merge that with the Dharma thatI had known, which is a lot of
where this book comes from.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
You mentioned feeling that young warrior
energy when you started thepractice, and then you learned
for that type of say Kundalinienergy experience that you felt
that you really needed to bow toit.
I'm wondering if you would beable to share with our listeners
(11:21):
some tips or invitations forlearning how to bow to something
that may feel so scary.
I think a lot of people step upin their warrior energy out of
feeling of a need to control itor resist it or change it
quickly.
So I love that expression ofbowing to it.
(11:44):
Can you share maybe some ideasfor how people can do that in a
time when it could feel soterrorizing?
SPEAKER_03 (11:51):
Yeah, well, you know, I think it's so individual
in a given moment.
I want to say keep everything onthe table.
You know.
I'm still recovering from a veryintense health journey over the
last 15, 16 months.
And sometimes you do everythingyou can in your power to change
your circumstances, whetherthat's a treatment or that's
(12:12):
getting out of a relationship orchanging a job, or sometimes you
just do what you need to do, andit's not spiritual at all.
It doesn't necessarily feel thatway, right?
And then other times it's like,oh, this is a time just to bow
and to listen and to wait and tolet it wash over me.
Keep all your cards on yourtable, all your tools.
There isn't any response that'sinherently aspiritual, or
(12:34):
sometimes we need lots ofdifferent things depending on
our situation.
To keep it in the context of myspiritual practice in my
history, sometimes it is that ifyou resonate with bowing and
putting those two hands togetherand putting your head down and
letting it not just be about youin that moment.
There's something a lot greaterthat I don't understand that's
happening in this moment, inthis world, in this universe,
(12:56):
and just to withhold judgmentfor a moment, because there's an
inherent arrogance in that, thatwe think we know what's
happening, what should behappening.
And say, okay, we'll withholdthat for a moment and just wait
and listen.
And usually there's somethingelse that comes in that informs
us in a way that helps us relaxand be at ease a little bit
more.
On a practical level, to answeryour question is sort of what
(13:17):
the book is is trying toprovide.
It's a whole series ofself-compassion exercises of
different types, including thetype of self-compassion where
you just allow yourself to beheld.
Allow yourself to be held bysomething greater than you.
Maybe sort of a broad answerthere, but we can drill a little
deeper.
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Yeah, I like this theme of how you're connecting
with nature, connecting withsomething greater.
It's not just about you.
There's this connection withspaciousness and the natural
world and spirit.
A lot of our listeners live inmaybe dense cities.
(13:57):
And there aren't these continuedreminders of our natural world
in a lived experience withsocial media and screens and
everything, it's so easy to getcaught up in all these stories
and reactivity.
I'm wondering if you could talka little bit about, say, your
relationship with nature as asupport for your mindfulness and
(14:23):
dharma path and how you relatethat to healing.
SPEAKER_03 (14:27):
I mean, firstly, for those folks that are not
surrounded by nature or don'thave access, I think it can be
really hard.
A lot of what I write about ishow relating to our own
challenges with a real sinceretype of compassion is a
liberating experience in and ofitself.
So I do think that whatever itmight be, whether it's our
distance from nature, whateverchallenging conditions we have,
(14:49):
if we can be with them with areal wholeheartedness, real
care, that can be a refuge forus as well.
So I just want to note thatdistance from nature, I think,
is a pretty big component as towhy a lot of us struggle, or at
least a lot of our normalhabitual tendencies get
overactive and exacerbated.
(15:09):
So we don't have a lot of goodrole models.
And when I say role models, likethe trees.
We don't have a lot of good rolemodels.
I'm looking outside my window,you know, fortunately, and able
to see a lot of these beans.
And I mean it very literally.
Immediately, I'm like, oh, okay,yeah, that's a way to live,
right?
Is just to stand tall and toreach to the sky and just sort
of almost a prayerfulness in away that I see the plants and
(15:32):
trees live.
And so I'm reminded, right?
I'm gonna remind them of thatpart of me.
If we say everything'sinterconnected, which I think we
would all agree, then very muchis a part of me, that version of
me that's like a tree.
It's inside me as well.
So, anyway, good to have goodrole models.
Um in terms of how that relatesto healing, I'd say the most
(15:53):
obvious way to me is the supportthat we feel or the support that
one can feel.
I take people out into natureand we meditate together, and
not everyone's comfortable outthere.
But as you do develop ease in anatural setting and relax, most
people do feel quite readily thesupport of the natural world.
And that's maybe enigmatic sortof thing.
(16:14):
It might be the elements, maybethe wind as it moves through
your hair, the sun on your face,or it might actually be some
other creature, some otheranimal that you see that sees
you, and you sort of remembersomething about yourself.
Regardless, this feeling ofwe're a part of something larger
than ourselves and we're beingheld by that, that tends to
create a feeling of safety andconnection within ourselves.
(16:36):
That to me is sort of the basisof emotional healing, but also
of spiritual insight.
So that safety and connection isa real touchstone.
SPEAKER_01 (16:46):
You wrote this book to help a lot of people to heal.
I'm wondering about what you'refinding in terms of how people
are unhealed.
That's a great way of puttingit.
But like you talk about safetyand connection as something we
(17:06):
can say learn from nature, butthey're integral into Dharma
practice and insight practiceand meditation.
I'm wondering if you could talkabout the ways that people are
not feeling safe or connectedthese days.
What practices, some of theguided meditations that you
(17:27):
share that can help people toheal their sense of not being
safe or not feeling safe, or notfeeling connected.
How are you seeing thatmanifested these days?
The people who are reallystruggling?
SPEAKER_03 (17:43):
It's an incredibly tough time in the world for a
lot of people.
There's a lot of reason thatpeople don't feel safe and don't
feel connected.
So I want to first start by justvalidating that that's
understandable.
Everyone can validate that bythemselves.
Like, I don't feel safe andconnected.
You don't want to blameyourself.
I should be able to if I wasjust spiritual enough or just
had the right practice, then Iwould.
(18:04):
No, and maybe Justin's practice.
Start with actually connectingto whatever that pain is, that
lack is, that lack of safety andconnection, the lack of having
what you need or want in yourlife.
And that's the touch point tobegin the healing.
So just noticing that firstbefore we get off on our healing
journey to turn the attentionback around and say, okay,
what's my motivation for evenjoining this?
(18:26):
Because a lot of our unconsciousmotivation is just aversion to
pain.
We don't want to be in painanymore.
We don't want to beuncomfortable anymore.
I am right there with you.
And if that is our primarydriving force, it's an ancient
force in our psyches.
And if that is the leadingforce, well, it's going to
prolong our suffering.
It's going to get us intotrouble.
A premise of how I frame mypractices is that we need to
(18:51):
lead with the opposite ofaversion to what's unpleasant.
We need to lead with compassionfor what's unpleasant.
And that we can work from there,we're going to slowly restore
safety and connection.
So zooming out a little bit, mytake is that we each receive a
lot of blows from life.
You know, we get hurt.
And we get hurt before we'reeven able to talk about what it
(19:12):
means to be hurt.
And we hold these wounds in ourbody because we didn't feel safe
enough to process them, becausewe whatever we didn't have the
right conditions in our familylife or in the culture.
And so we just hold a lot in ourbodies, a lot more than we often
realize, and we pack it allaway.
Then we get introduced to thespiritual path, and we say, oh,
this is the way out of all ofthat.
(19:32):
And we think that we can getaround it somehow instead of
having to go back down throughit all.
But we can't go back downthrough it all by trying to put
on some spiritual image ofourselves or some fancy
technique and practice.
And it has to often just be areal humble willingness to
approach our own messiness andour own uncertainty of what even
(19:53):
lives inside of us.
There's so much we don't knowabout the world, so much we
don't know about the what thebottoms of the oceans and the
universe.
But there's a whole lot we don'tknow about what's in our own
hearts and minds.
So this humble and caringapproach to our own emotional
lives is what I tend toprescribe.
When we're young, we're relianton the circumstances around us
almost entirely to providesafety and connection for us.
(20:14):
But as adults, we're tasked nowwith this responsibility to say,
how do we create this forourselves when the outer
circumstances aren't safe andconnected or aren't safe or
threatening in some way?
How do we start to create arefuge for ourselves inside of
ourselves?
You know, I'm offering a lot ofbasic compassion practices,
although they're kind offine-tuned, this particular type
(20:37):
of compassion, I think, is mosthelpful, but really showing up
for ourselves in ways thatcreate internal safety and
connection that make usresilient to the outward crises
that surround us.
Hopefully you could follow allthat.
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
Yeah, yeah.
There's a lot of love there.
Do you sense, say, love innature?
You know, it's easy to senseinto being and restfulness and
relaxation.
I guess through what connection?
But I'm curious if there's asense of benevolence in the
natural world that you connectwith, or if that's a part of how
(21:12):
you relate to your role modelsoutside.
SPEAKER_03 (21:15):
That's one of my favorite questions, left uh kind
of like a co-on or a riddle.
Where do you find kindness innature?
Or where do you find love innature?
It's interesting to ask that toa group and to hear what's
there, whatever reason coming tomind is one of the two things I
said earlier, wind blowingthrough the hair or sunshine on
your face, or these momentswhere it just it touches you and
(21:38):
you feel held and you feel joycome up in the presence of being
held.
So is that inherent in nature,or it's in the relationships
that are in nature, right?
So I guess that would be more mygeneral answers.
The love is in theinterrelatedness, the way that
we all depend on each other, themutual indebtedness we have to
(21:58):
one another.
I'm only breathing because thetrees are breathing in the
opposite chemicals, right?
So that I can live.
And there's so many other waysevery spoon of food I put in my
mouth, right, is a mutualindebtedness that I'm incurring,
and I indeed will give my bodyback, and hopefully much more
than my body I'm trying to giveback.
(22:19):
Yeah, so I think that's wherefor me the heart of the love is,
but the individual experiencespeople have are so varied and
they're just are like an oldgrowth tree.
Just I'm not sure what it is.
For me, really, when you getdown to the bottom of it, it's
that anything exists at all thatis why love is at the center of
everything.
Which is like a riddle ofitself, but it's like, how else
(22:41):
could this beautiful oak tree bestanding here if it wasn't for
love?
I don't know what else it wouldbe.
And so there's sort of a someessential goodness in the
creative essence of life itselfthat's expressed in all these
forms.
And I think that's what reallykind of gets me most
essentially.
SPEAKER_01 (22:58):
Beautiful.
In addition to your teaching andwriting, you also own and
operate the native edible plantnursery outside of Eugene,
Oregon.
I've never heard of an edibleplant nursery to begin with.
What is that?
And I'm guessing that this isconnected with your spiritual
(23:21):
practice, your dharma.
And so I'm wondering if youcould talk about that possible
connection.
SPEAKER_03 (23:26):
Yeah, in 2017, I started a nursery called Native
Foods Nursery.
And it was a reflection of mylove and ongoing curiosity
around the native plants of mostof the Northwest where I live,
but also the western UnitedStates in general.
And in particular, the plantsthat are native and edible.
(23:46):
Sometimes they're not veryedible.
I mean, sometimes they're notdelicious, and other times
they're actually pretty darngood.
But it's a sort of a tribute tothe plants of this area that
have really not got as muchattention.
Most of the plants that we eatand cultivate are old world
plants.
They're from Europe or Eurasia.
And there's a lot of beautifulplants.
Well, just a lot of people knowthe Huckleberry, maybe.
(24:08):
There's a lot of wonderfulhuckleberry species out here.
They're sort of likeblueberries, but they haven't
really been cultivated.
Anyhow, so bringing attention insome of the beauty of this
region and educating peopleabout that online via our
website.
But yeah, for me, in a spiritualsense, it's like, how can I get
80 of my best friends to livewith me?
Why don't I start a nursery andpropagate 80 different species
(24:31):
of native plants?
SPEAKER_01 (24:33):
Your friends being the plants.
SPEAKER_03 (24:35):
Exactly, right?
This is sort of like family.
There's a sense of family andthis inner relatedness or this
mutual indebtedness that I'mspeaking to.
So, oh hi, I know you are.
There's a plant called Salal.
It's a low-growing evergreenshrub that I walk by a lot of
different plants of Salal, forexample, say, Oh, hi.
There's this relatedness beingtogether in this dance of life.
(24:57):
And so, yeah, what an amazingthing to grow these plants and
to take care of these plants andthen to offer them to other
people to get to know them sothat they once again hopefully
can feel more connected to theplaces that they live, even if
it's in the city or the suburbs.
We have people buying in thoseplaces, and it's a little piece
of the environment that was backwith them.
(25:18):
It's sort of a little piece ofthemselves back there with them
that they're caring for.
And it's in that relationshipthat magic happens.
And that might just be likestress relief.
They're gardening.
It feels good to be outside andbe, you know, water my plant.
And there's also somethingdeeper, more spiritual there, I
think, that's happening.
For me, that's what it was.
And is, I mean, unfortunately,running a business requires a
(25:38):
lot of it's not just a funspiritual time with the point.
Requires much more time on thecomputer than I would have ever
imagined.
But nonetheless, that's sort ofthe spirit of it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:49):
A lot of people say they have spirit animals.
I'm wondering if you have aspirit plant or animal.
Right.
I wouldn't say I have a singleone.
No.
But you have a lot of friends.
Yeah, I've gained a lot offriends.
In your book, which I highlyrecommend, you talk about the
four turnings of the wheel ofhealing.
(26:10):
Four turnings, being likesurface, depth, collective, and
universal.
Can you talk about the fourturnings and how it relates to
our healing and kind of give anoverview for people on what that
means?
SPEAKER_03 (26:25):
Yeah, the first part of the book is the theory of a
lot of things I'm talking about,why healing's important on the
spiritual path, emotionalhealing, and then what the
process of that could look like.
And then the second part of thebook is all the practices, all
the guided meditations that Idivide up into four different
sections, and those I'm callingturnings, turning of the wheel
of healing, kind of a playoff ofturning the wheel of the dharma.
(26:49):
I basically put self-compassionpractices into four different
categories.
And the first is sendingourselves compassion, sending
the surface level part of ourself-compassion.
It's like the day-to-day ups anddowns, like, oh, I don't feel
that well today, or my stomachkind of hurts, or something
didn't go well at work, or thesesort of like ongoing, simple but
(27:11):
challenging things.
And the surface layer of ourhearts, that's just like outer
part of our personality, is kindof like, I like this, I don't
want this.
Kind of reacting to situations,learn how to soothe ourselves so
that when these inevitabledisappointments and challenges
happen, that we're right therewith a hand on our heart saying,
I see you, I understand, I careabout you, I'm here to support
(27:33):
you.
We're just speaking to ourselvesand learning to be kind to
ourselves.
And so that's the first turningis kind of the surface level and
getting the hang of the practiceand a guide through that.
And then the second is kind of adeeper plunge into our
subconscious.
I mentioned some of theexperiences in my path, just the
deeper fears that we have, orthe deeper shame or the grief we
(27:53):
might have in our own lives orabout the world, and touching
into those places, which can bereally tender.
And we often need a more safeand controlled environment to go
there, or we need moreconfidence in our practice to go
there.
So building up to that and thenwith the first turning and then
going into these second turningpractices.
And most of all, those types ofwounds need a more wholehearted
(28:15):
devotion.
They need a more wholeheartedcompassion and gratitude than
the simple day-to-daychallenges.
So that's the second turning isdiving into that.
And then the third is spiralingback out a little bit and having
compassion for the ways in whichour own wounds have been and are
and will be co-created byfamily, by culture, by nature,
(28:38):
even by our sort of evolutionarypast.
So it's using self-compassion inthe more impersonal way, seeing
how everything we hold in ourbodies that constricts us has
been co-created.
It's actually not just ours.
In fact, there's quite a bit ofit we can set down because it's
not ours.
It's like, okay, well, I'm gonnagive that back to my lineage,
(28:58):
give that back to the culturethat imprinted that on me,
right?
So that's the third turn, sortof this bigger sense of who we
are and how we've been formedand offering compassion to that.
And then the fourth is this moreuniversal layer, being held by
something benevolent that's muchgreater than us, and actually
experiencing compassion fromsomething greater than us and
(29:20):
resting all of our effortingtowards healing and spiritual
growth and just entering more ofa state of being, I guess you
could say silence, stillness,spaciousness.
So that's more what the fourthturning is about.
And then starting back overagain.
SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
The wheel keeps turning.
SPEAKER_03 (29:36):
Through that process, naturally coming to the
center of the wheel.
You could say coming to a placewhere those four different
turnings or aspects of healingand spiritual growth are all one
thing.
They're all that's like aholograph.
Each is the other, and have amore unified sense or a whole
integral sense of who we are asboth a human and a spiritual
(29:57):
being, healing and spiritualinsight as one.
So that's kind of theculmination of the journey as
it's framed.
SPEAKER_01 (30:04):
Beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
A lot of people who arepracticing self-compassion run
into this self-aversion.
There's many reasons for that, Ithink.
There's a lot of shame thatcomes up.
We feel like we may not beworthy or good enough, we
haven't accomplished enough,we're not as good as someone
(30:27):
else, or other people deserve itmore.
You know, I'll be okay.
You frame self-aversion as akind of psychological autoimmune
response.
And I thought that that phrasewas quite interesting, that this
self-aversion is a kind ofpsychological autoimmune
(30:50):
response.
Can you talk about what youmeant by that and just kind of
unpack that metaphor a littlebit?
SPEAKER_03 (30:56):
The easiest way to figure out what emotional
healing work we have to do is tostart a self-compassion practice
like this.
And often we'll find right awaywhat we're aversive to.
We'll attempt to say some kindphrases to ourselves and then
some other part of us will arguewith it, or we'll shut down, or
we'll kind of find where ouredges are around it, or we'll
(31:17):
find pieces that feel they theyaren't worthy.
So I just say that to say partof self-compassion practice is
all of that other stuff.
It's inevitable, it's expected,it's actually what you want to
be coming up because then youknow what to be with, what to
focus on, what to help, what tosupport.
So just to normalize that andvalidate that.
But yeah, from that metaphorcomes from a larger perspective
(31:41):
that aversion is just an ancientand necessary impulse within our
biological and psychologicalselves from millions and
millions of years ago that weshare with all other sentient
beings, that when somethinghurts, you try to pull away from
it and get some distance fromit, or something doesn't serve
you.
You can see that from one cellorganisms all the way to these
(32:02):
complex creatures likeourselves.
And so we hold a really ancientinstinct, and it's helped us in
a lot of ways that a lot oftimes it's just that for most,
if not all, other creatures thatI'm aware of, they never turn it
on themselves.
So it's like we want to moveaway from that which hurts us in
the outside environment.
But humans in the creation ofour complex brains, at some
(32:24):
point along the way, developed acapacity to have aversion
towards our own innerexperiences because those too
were painful.
And this is part of what makesus complex and what makes us
store so much trauma compared toother animals is that we have a
capacity to stow away this painand then have a capacity to be
(32:45):
aversive to that pain that wehave stowed away within our own
bodies.
And that aversion might be ahatred, it might be a
self-hatred, or it might be afear.
I don't know what that fear,that pain is in me, but I don't
even want to go there.
All understandable stuff, butjust like an autoimmune disease
is sort of the immune systemoverreacting to parts of the
(33:06):
body that are actually your own,right?
The immune system's supposed toonly interact or attack foreign
invaders, so to speak, but it'sattacking our own cells.
And in the same way,psychologically, we're attacking
our own wounds.
Our wounds are stuffed down inus, just needing attention,
care.
And instead of offering that, weunconsciously are beating
(33:27):
ourselves up.
That's what I meant by thatautoimmune response.
But it's a fascinating thing.
And I think it's a key mechanismthat explains why there is so
much trauma still within each ofus and in the world itself.
It's just the way our minds andhearts became wired over our
evolution.
SPEAKER_01 (33:45):
It reminds me of an old book.
I think it's called Why ZebrasDon't Get Ucers.
Have you heard of this?
Heard of it.
I haven't read it though.
Yeah.
They return to physical safetyafter a say a scary event of
maybe a leopard chasing them orsomething like that.
The zebras will shake it out,shake out the stress in their
(34:05):
bodies and wiggle their tail.
And I walk my puppy everymorning, and after she chases a
squirrel and then calms down,she shakes it off.
A couple months ago, I won araffle for my daughter, like a
five-foot-tall stuffed giraffethat has like rainbow dots on
it.
And it's standing so regal rightin front of me right now.
(34:29):
Looking upwards.
I imagine the even the stuffyshakes out its trauma sometimes.
Thank you for sharing thatreally fascinating, unique way
of what humans do of storing thetrauma in their bodies for so
long and then become averse toit.
It's a little ironic.
So a lot of people who arelistening are people who help
(34:53):
others.
So there's a lot of counselorsand coaches and yoga teachers
and therapists who dedicatetheir lives to helping other
people.
And I think a lot of us who dothat do so because we've been on
our own healing journeys,dedicated a lot of our attention
(35:15):
towards how we heal as people.
And we find different modalitiesand things that we can share to
help others to pay it forwardand share what we've learned.
I'm wondering if you could talkabout your process of becoming a
teacher.
Say what you started teaching inthe beginning, any lessons that
(35:39):
you've learned or tips that youcan share for others, and how
you hold that concurrently withyour own continued healing with
this ever-turning wheel ofhealing.
While still wearing the hat as ateacher at the same time.
SPEAKER_03 (35:58):
Yeah.
That's a big topic.
I tend to coach folks of allsorts to find something in their
life that feeds them and feedsthe world, you know, when
they're trying to figure outwhat's my calling, what am I
supposed to do?
So I would hope that folks thatare healers, teachers of
different sorts, that are yourlisteners, you know, have come
to that place in a way thatfeels good to them when they are
(36:20):
helping others that it servesthem or supports them and their
practice in some way.
So for me, moving into being ateacher in the insight
meditation tradition became abig evolution in my own growth.
In my journey as a student, itwas just another step along that
path.
Because every time I have to tryto articulate my own experience
(36:40):
and share it with others, I seeit in a new way.
I see it in a deeper way.
Every time someone asks me aquestion, I have to reassess.
And everyone, all of us noticeover time is that our answers
will change over time.
Which is kind of a funny thingabout writing a book because
what are we going to think ofthis book in 10 years?
I don't know.
We'll see.
Even when it's been a year sinceI've finished the final draft, I
(37:02):
still wouldn't have said thingsexactly the same way.
So this paradoxicalacknowledgement that we are
always changing, alwaysevolving, always learning, at
least we are regardless.
We may or may not admit it toourselves or to others.
And at the same time, all of ushave something we can offer.
Yeah, I mean, you see that inany group experience that I
(37:23):
lead, and there's so much wisdomin the room.
And at the same time, I'mguiding it and I'm offering my
own perspective, but trying todo so in a way that acknowledges
that, hey, I don't knoweverything.
This is just one perspective.
This is one tool for yourtoolkit.
And you have a lot of wisdom inyourself.
And in fact, all of these thingsI'm offering are really only
(37:44):
there to try to have youremember and realize your own
wisdom and compassion that isinnate to you.
That's not dependent on me.
I think as a teacher, as ahealer or whatever, the more we
can empower the people we workwith with tools, but really more
than that, with thatself-confidence in their own
connection to everything theyneed to know.
(38:06):
Then that helps all of us,right?
Hey, I'm a teacher stilllearning.
I want to offer this.
And if people are showing up tolisten, that's great.
And I want to make sure you allknow that you have what you need
to continue on the path.
And then we can learn together.
And so that's where the magicreally is for me in it, is that
like, I don't think I'd ratherbe anywhere else but practicing
self-compassion in a group ofpeople together.
(38:28):
It's sort of like I said withthe plant nursery.
It's like, I just wanted to getmy friends together.
Why don't we just get together,go out in nature, and do the
only thing worth doing, which isjust to care for what is in
front of us together, to do whatis impossible together, right?
I have such big visions.
Oh, we're gonna heal the world,we're gonna turn this thing
around, we're gonna awaken toour true nature.
(38:49):
And then we get slammed withlife and with deep wounds that
we have.
And so, in a way, it feelsimpossible at times.
But you know, the only way wecan do what's impossible is to
do it together and to do ithumbly and the amount of
strength we get from that andthe amount of inspiration we get
from each other.
So I want to get my friendstogether and go out in nature,
you know.
So it's more that spirit ofcompanionship on the path that
(39:12):
can be hard in certain contexts.
If everyone's projecting on youthat you're the guru, you're the
teacher, you're the healer.
Well, it is your responsibilityto start to soften those
projections.
They have their value forcertain people at certain times,
but they need to be challengedoften.
You'll notice there's people whoget a lot out of those
projections.
They really need a teacher, theyneed someone to look up to, they
(39:33):
need someone to think isperfect.
And it works for them until theyget to a maturity level where
they're ready to realize thatnobody's perfect and nobody's
finished.
Even the big names out there.
And at that point, then we'refriends in practice together.
Then we're doing the worktogether, evolving this way
beyond ourselves, a time waybeyond ourselves.
(39:53):
It just becomes a bigger ritual,and we're turning these wheels
endlessly with everyone aroundus, but with all the beings of
the past, all the buildings.
Of the past are with us.
They're turning the wheel withus.
The elements, the stars, thegalaxies.
It's part of something biggerwe're doing that we can't and
never will fully understand.
But it's sort of like our dutydoing what we can, which is to
show up in this moment caringfor what is in front of us.
(40:16):
So if we can do it together,it's like, wow, my life feels
more complete.
That's more me as a teacher, youknow.
SPEAKER_01 (40:22):
Yeah.
It resonate with that.
Your book is called The Dharmaof Healing, and it's just kind
of occurring to me that one ofthe translations or meanings of
the word Dharma is nature.
It's like the nature of healing.
It's one possibleinterpretation.
(40:43):
The way things are, truth, whatthe Buddha was pointing to with
his teachings.
I think we're all in this boattogether, in this forest
together.
Why not practice thisself-compassion together?
And speaking of together, howcan people find you?
What do you offer?
And how can people practice withyou?
SPEAKER_03 (41:05):
Yeah.
My website isJustinMichelsondharma.com.
So you can look that up.
I have a Facebook and anInstagram of the same name,
Justin MichelsonDharma.
And I'm outside of Eugene,Oregon.
That's where I'm stationed.
And there's some retreats Ioffer locally in Oregon here and
also some online offerings.
(41:27):
So people can check those outand join me.
And I'd love to continue thedialogue.
SPEAKER_01 (41:31):
Beautiful.
Looks like you offer groupmentorship.
So we'll post links to Justin'swebsite in the show notes and on
our website,JustinMichelsondharma.com.
We'll also post a link to thebook that you can find on
Amazon, Shimbala Publications,Barnes and Noble, etc.
(41:53):
Looks like you have some niceofferings on your website.
So I highly encourage people tocheck out Justin's book, The
Dharma of Healing.
Tara Brock wrote a nice blurbfor it.
Justin, thank you so much foryour warm-hearted presence
today, your teachings andofferings today, and really just
(42:14):
appreciate the approach and theperspective that you have on
practice.
I think this is going to behelpful for a lot of people out
there.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (42:23):
Yeah, you're very welcome.
It's great to meet you, and Ilove to talk about it.
So I'm happy for all thosequestions you asked me.
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
The Mindfulness Exercises Podcast.
May this be a source ofinspiration and motivation in
your mindfulness practice andteachings.
Remember to subscribe so youdon't miss an episode.
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