#359 Tim McNamara Talks About Working Smarter, Not Harder

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
But were they like businessmistakes, like customer relation

(00:03):
mistakes, just mistakes on theprojects they were getting swept
under the rug operational likethe biggest mistakes that were
really being made. It was alwayslike a push to grow rather than
a push to refine the process andget really good at doing
something. And so, yeah, it wasalways like one step forward,
two steps back.
Welcome to this week's moderncraftsman podcast, where today

(00:27):
we are joined by Tim McNamara, abuilder, business owner and
founder of the young craftsmanfoundation. Tim's story is one
of grit, clarity and purpose,from growing up around real
estate and carpentry to buildinga values driven construction
business. Tim shares how he'snavigated the trades with

(00:47):
integrity, built the team fromthe ground up, and why he's on a
mission to reshape how youngpeople see careers in the
trades. This conversation isabout doing the work, owning
your worth, and building a lifewith intention. This podcast is
brought to you by Andersonwindows. So we've recently had

(01:08):
the opportunity to get a behindthe scenes look at a stunning
condo project by Mullen buildingin Conway, New Hampshire,
featuring Anderson windows anddoors. We went through it all,
from building strategy toinstallation techniques to
esthetics, the windows and doorschosen for this project feature
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series around it, watch and readabout it all at Anderson.
Windows.com/four-professionals/pro-views,
you guys are gonna have to clickon that link because it is long.
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(03:46):
space in your build.
You grew up
with a home inspector and a realestate agent for parents, so
that probably set you up forworking within the trades, but
not necessarily the path thatyou're on now. Do you feel that

(04:08):
like your upbringing impactedyou in a way that you wanted to
get involved with building homesand residential? Yeah,
definitely. I mean, I didn'twhen I was like 12 years old,
say, I want to be inconstruction. I want to, you
know, I actually, when I was 20,from like 18 to like 22 I wanted
to be a home inspector. Yeah, Ithought it was a great gig. But

(04:32):
the exposure at a young agedefinitely helped like
significantly. And that's one ofthe things that I talk about
when I am talking about thefoundation is, you know,
exposure at a young age, andactually knowing about the
career path that's there, thatthe the option is there, and
knowing that you can make moneyin it and be paid well and have

(04:52):
a good career. So thatdefinitely shaped it. And, you
know, it's, it's also helpedshape my practicality as a as a
bill.
Or modeler. You know when, whenyou're brought up by a home
inspector, they've seen a lot ofthings over the years. You know?
They know, you know, sometimeswe get, you know, lost in these

(05:14):
wall assemblies and flashingdetails and all kinds of stuff.
And you know, where I am, we'reinland, right? And if you've got
two foot overhangs in yourwindow is basically slammed up,
you know, within six inches ofthat overhang,
it almost doesn't matter.
I was just talking to Nick aboutthat with like, the way that the

(05:36):
industry is going, and thestretch energy codes and the
exterior insulation, andeverything that we're doing,
like even the people who aretrying to execute it really well
are running into trouble andstruggling with it. And I'm like
thinking big picture, what we'rereally trying to do with it, and
how hard and difficult and likethe impact of the mistakes that

(06:01):
come along with that are so muchgreater as we build these houses
tighter. And I'm not saying thatwe shouldn't build houses
tighter, but I'm like, just whatyou're saying sometimes. Like,
does it need, does it need to bethis complicated for everyone?
And like, are we? Are we settingus ourselves up for failure,
like, I think, in theory and onpaper, it all works, but from a

(06:24):
practical standpoint, like someof the shit and the sequencing
and the coordination and, like,the mixing of materials that
hasn't really been done on alarge scale before, I feel like
it's gonna create a lot ofissues. Yeah, so I'll try not to
go down too far of a wormholehere. But
the good news for us inMassachusetts is we actually

(06:45):
just got some relief in our codein the last month, which was
like huge news, we had thesecodes in place that basically,
if you were doing 1000 squarefoot addition or more, or doing
a full gut remodel
or remodeling more than 50% ofyour existing square footage.
There's all these triggers.Essentially, you had to bring up

(07:07):
your entire house to energycode, new construction energy
code. So do you guys use HERSrating where you are? We do, but
like, we don't do a ton of
the stretch codes just being putinto place near us. And like we
don't even do blower doors oranything like that down near us.
So it's even though we're notthat far south of you, it's not

(07:27):
quite as stringent, right? So ifyou're at all familiar with HERS
rating, you know the what? TheHERS rating number that we have
to hit up here in Massachusettsfor a new construction home is
basically 42 um, which is, it'stight, right? Yeah,
they were requiring homes thatwere putting on 1000 square foot
addition to bring up theirentire home to a HERS rating 42

(07:52):
it was just out of control. Soimpractical. And we had some
good building inspectors andcommissioners that were, you
know, working with people to getcode variances. And I think so
many code variances just kepthappening and kept happening.
There was so much pushback fromhomeowners and code officials
and people and and a lot of whatyou're just saying is like, this

(08:14):
is happening so fast we don'tknow how to adopt it properly.
You know, you're asking us to dothings that are gonna probably
result in catastrophic, youknow, failures years down the
road because the lack ofeducation that's come along with
the implementation of the code.So fortunately, they scaled that
back recently, and now I thinkthe number is like 55 Yeah,

(08:37):
which is essentially like yourdo some basic air sealing, fill
the cavity and be mindful, whichis, you know, that's pretty much
my general feeling about, youknow, how I can serve my market.
Like, I like, I said I'm not inthe Boston Market. Yeah,
you know, I mean, I feel likeI'm right in that same, that

(08:57):
same page as you like, I like, Ihave a specific customer. I want
to be doing things a certainway, but there's just there.
There's a point of no return,especially working on these
older homes. And when you have aclient who doesn't necessarily
have the like they they have,they need a functional upgrade,
right? And then to require themto renovate their entire

(09:20):
existing home, or bring theirentire home up to a standard
that's unrealistic, just to me,that that opens the door to
like, well, we're not gonna beable to do this. Let's kind of
do this behind closed doors,
which is what we're trying toavoid. I just feel like so much
is being put in place right now,that if big picture is energy

(09:43):
preservation and using lessnatural resources and being more
energy conscientious, that likethe amount of work that we're
having to put in place and tapesand sealants and foams and
everything else, and.
The production and themanufacturing of that, like, are
we really offsetting the energycosts that we're losing through

(10:08):
all the manufacturing andproduction and layering of shit
that we're doing, like, over thelifespan of a house? There's
probably an argument there. SoI'm definitely of the same
mindset as you were, like, Ilike things to be done well in a
certain way, but even, like,we're building our own house.
And it's like, sometimes goodenough is going to be good

(10:29):
enough for a lot of people, andnot necessarily, like, the top
10% of client base across thecountry. Yeah, I'm going to try
and not get pulled in too deepto that one because I'll end up
on that conversation for awhile, I definitely don't sell
build science but I mean youhave to be competent and I mean

(10:51):
I'm 33 years old. You know, I'vegot a long stretch ahead of me
here if you're not moving withstuff you don't know what's
going on, then you know, thisthis industry will spit you up
Yeah, chew you up and spit youout you know, so So you did get
into you were a home inspectorfor a little bit right? Yeah I
followed my dad around for alittle bit basically

(11:15):
he said to me if you want to bea home inspector you got to go
swing a hammer for at least acouple years and I was like,
okay, so I went and did it for afew years, and, you know,
started bugging them, and I waslike, Can I, can I get in here?
And it was,
I think I during that process,you know, I always had a little
bit of the entrepreneurial, youknow, spirit, for sure. But

(11:39):
during that process, we weretrying to figure out ways for me
to get involved in the business.
And so it took a lot ofstructuring and me kind of
working with them to figure outhow, you know, they could go
from just one home inspector tonow two, which, I mean, you know
what it's like. You're, you'reone guy, do you have a helper

(12:01):
sometimes? Yeah, but it's still,it's the same principle, like
you're trying to create two selfemployed people under one
business, right? Like, it's notlike you're just an employee
right? So yeah, I mean, Istarted to learn a lot about
business and businessdevelopment and stuff in that
time, and really had to applymyself, but along that process,

(12:23):
I just kind of kept growing inconstruction and there just
became a point where I was like,hey, you know, what? I'm
actually pretty good at thisYeah, I almost want to just give
this a try. You know, I kind ofowe it to myself to give this a
try. To You know, stick aroundin construction and see if I
actually can grow a business andyou were like, early 20s at that
point, yeah. So I think by thewhen I went out on my own think

(12:47):
I was probably like 25 Yeah,right around the time that I
went out on my own Yeah? Soyeah, I think I actually I
started working for a guy inlemon, sir. I was just
delivering cabinets, actually,
and I was like, Hey, do youthink I can get on, like, some
demo or something, get somehammers, some sledgehammers in
my hands? Can I, can I startknocking some stuff out here?

(13:10):
And I think I was, like, 19 atthat time. And then, funny
enough, you know, after talkingto my parents about how I wanted
to get into the business, and mydad told me I got to swing a
hammer. They actually werebuying me a tool tote in Home
Depot, and they were just in theaisle, and they just stopped,

(13:30):
and they were talking to thisguy and like, hey, what's a good
tool bag that I can get my son?And they start talking a little
bit, and he's like, Oh, I'mactually looking to hire a
grunt, you know, something likethat. And I emailed the guy,
followed up with him, he gave mean interview, and that was the
first person that I really wentand worked for, like, full time
that gave me a really goodbackground. Yeah. JF, bass net

(13:53):
out of Littleton mass, and theywere at high end, and they were
actually really far ahead of thecurve with all the build
science. It was a biggercompany. No, they were actually
like two crews of like three,two crews of three, or sometimes
like three crews of two, yeah,medium sized in house, designer,

(14:14):
estimator,
you know, involved owner, yeah,I
feel like that's a really greatintroduction to the business as
well, because you're not, like,right beside the owner all the
time. They're big enough thatthey can probably afford to pay
you, like, a decent rate.There's a little bit of room for
growth there. But you're alsonot so huge that you're just a

(14:35):
number and have, like, dayswhere you're not doing crap. I
think that in an ideal world,that's a that's somewhat of a
perfect company to reallytransition into. I just feel
like that's also a reallydifficult model to live because,
again, you're on the in betweenwhere it's like you're getting a
higher overhead that you need tosupport. You're not necessarily

(14:57):
doing the volume. So I feel likethere's not.
Too many of those companies,those type of companies around.
It's funny that you say that,because that's pretty much the
world that I'm living in rightnow that is about, that's about
where I operate right now.
But I'll get into that. But tokind of jump back to, you know,

(15:17):
my experience with them. It was,I mean, it was a great
experience. They were a high endcompany. They were ahead of the
curve with doing the buildscience stuff. And so I was hand
air sealing. I mean, I rememberwe were in a meeting one time,
and we were doing all thesetaping and caulking windows and
stuff. And I and I said to him,like, I don't even understand

(15:38):
what the point of this is. Ilook down and I can see right
through the framing, and I'mlooking at the daylight outside.
I mean, the air is just going togo right through there. And my
boss looks at me, and he's like,that's a great point. We're
going to start, we're going tostart caulking all the double
frame, double plates that cometogether and everything. I'm
like, Oh my gosh,
so but they gave me a greatbasis for how to apply my

(16:02):
skills. And I mean, I learned somany great things, and I went
out on my own pretty young, withnot enough experience, and I
wouldn't change it, and I'dprobably encourage everybody you
know to try and do the samething, take a risk while you're
young, and go out and make abunch of mistakes, right? But at
the end of the day, I did get tosee the right way that it was

(16:23):
done from a really good company.And I appreciate that experience
to this day. It's just helped meso much. You know, if your first
experience is is working for aguy that's just flying by night
currently, I mean, constantly,boy, I mean, you can just learn
a lot of bad habits. Yeah, it'stough. And I feel like that's a
lot of what our what ourindustry is. So you went out on

(16:44):
your own around 25
and then you mentioned that youshut down during COVID. You want
to dig into that some. Yeah. Soright at the beginning of COVID,
I was still a one man show,
and I was teetering. I'm like,should I just pack it in and go

(17:07):
work for my dad? But as you canimagine, that's when he got
really slow too. Yeah,
you know, home sales actuallystarted to increase, but it was
at the time where everybody waswaving home inspections. I mean,
it was just so competitive,right? And so I'm like, Well, I
don't know if I can sustainthis. I think I'm gonna go work

(17:27):
for somebody else. And I did forabout eight months. And
there's a few things that I tookaway from that experience.
One is that I'm not made to workfor other people.
I I'm just, I'm a type A guy,you know, and I don't need much

(17:49):
motivation from anybody else.I'm a self motivated person,
yeah, right. Just tell me thetask, and I'm going to figure it
out, and I'm going to get itdone, and I'm probably going to
get it done better than 99% ofother people are going to get it
done. And so if you're tellingme how to do it, and then
telling me I should be doingmore, you know, something along
those lines, I'm just like, Getout of my face. You don't know

(18:11):
how good you have it, you know?
So that was generally, you know,that was part of it. The other
part is that I saw the way,there were good things that I
took out of it, right? I saw theway that they were running their
business. They're a roofingcompany. And, I mean, I think a
lot of people have seen, like,the the roofing gold mine, kind

(18:32):
of roofing gold rush. That'sthat's happened, yeah, out
there. And I'm just watching theway that they're operating, and
a lot of mistakes being made,and just somehow, just
constantly moving forward and Iand I think I just was able to
step back and look at everythingand analyze how I was operating

(18:53):
and saying, Wow, I was onlymaking a couple of real minor
mistakes. I wasn't making a lotof mistakes. And what, why did
you go, I don't mean tointerrupt you, why did you pick
a roofing company when you wentback to work? Like, what was the
mentality there? You know, Ithink it's something that just
kind of fell on my lap. It's notthat I was really looking for

(19:14):
it.
Somebody had connected us. And,you know, I like to the guy. He
was really passionate, and, youknow, he was a go getter and
everything. It didn't, it didn'treally work out. I didn't end up
aligning with that person. And,
you know, it kind of goes intothe whole, like, 10x mentality

(19:36):
and the manifesting and like allthat stuff. It's just like, I'm
a real simple guy, and I likegoals, right? You have a goal,
this is what you need to getdone. And there's solutions to
get the goal done, period. Like,I don't need manifestation, I
don't need exterior motivation,you know, any type of external
motivation to get that thingdone. It's just solutions.

(19:58):
There's there's ways to get itdone.
There isn't. And, like,manifesting, to me, is kind of
like a, like, a savvy way oflying, yeah, to people about
having a hype, man, yeah, yeah.What type of mistakes were being
made that, like, really caughtyour eye and stood out to you?

(20:19):
Um, I mean, I don't want to,like, I don't want to, like,
dump on this, no, but were theylike, business mistakes, like
customer relation mistakes, justmistakes on the projects. They
were getting swept under therug. Operational ideas, like,
like, the biggest mistakes thatwere really being made. It was
always like a push to growrather than a push to refine the

(20:40):
process, yeah, and get reallygood at doing something. And so,
yeah, it was always like, onestep forward, two steps back,
yeah. And just constantlycovering stuff up, like, it's
like the classic, the classiccase. And I feel like I talk
about all the time where peoplearen't necessarily making money
with their existing model. So intheir head they just say, well,

(21:03):
we just need to do more work.Like, if we increase our sales
volume, if we grow, if we landmore projects, if we land this
project, things will change. Andit's like it's flawed from the
get go, like you have toactually address what's going
on. Adding more to your plate isjust going to make more of those
mistakes, you know, come to ahead and expose more of the

(21:23):
issues within your existingmodel. Yeah. And I think the a
lot of the way, I think theywere making money, it was just
that, you know, they were, theywere expensive, like, really
expensive, you know. And sothat's part of, like, the
roofing Gold Rush that's outthere, is, it's all about sales,
and not necessarily, like,delivering on an excellent
product, yeah,

(21:43):
but there was a lot of justextracting value from people to
a lot of really long hours, youknow. And I really care. I mean,
I, I would work 60 hour weeks,like, no problem, you know,
managing projects, yeah, I was,I was supervising, yeah, kind of
production
and so, like, I'm just the typeof guy that I'll just run

(22:05):
through a wall, you know, it's,you don't have to ask me, you
know, I maybe that's disciplinefrom, like, growing up, or, you
know, playing sports and thingslike that, and that
competitiveness. It's like, oh,you told me that this is the
job. So, like, I have to get itdone period. You know, there's,
like, no excuses. You're boughtin. I feel like, if you're the
type of person, or as soon asyou're bought in and you believe

(22:27):
in it, and you're owning it,it's like, I'm gonna go to great
lengths to get this kind of getit done as well as I can, right?
And I mean, after six months,you can look back and be like,
Wow, I was thinking I was gonnawork like, 45 hours or something
like that. And I'm working
60 exactly, and so that kind offinally brought me back around.

(22:48):
So it's like, whoa. I shouldhave been giving myself this
much of a commitment. You know,I there's things here that I can
take away from this experience.And you know, since then, you
know that also corresponded withhaving my second child around
that time, you know, it was,like, it was a serious talk with
my wife. I'm like, I think thatI want to move on from this,

(23:11):
yeah, and like she was, like,Sure, no problem. We'll figure
it out, you know? Because, likeshe was, she was all done with
the the long nights and all thatstuff too, you know?
Yeah, there was just no end insight. So that's what I decided
to kind of go back out on myown. It was, like, right at the
beginning of 2021,

(23:31):
and it's just the market, like,picked back up at that point
before, yeah. So it wasn't likeyou were jumping into like, a,
you know, an empty market. Soyou started that definitely
played the factor into it isthat I was jumping back into,
like, the hottest market, yeah,a really fast growing market. So
did you hire immediately becauseyou were a one man show prior to

(23:54):
prior to this, then you went towork for somebody else, and
then, obviously, like, you couldhave hopped back in as one man
show. But did you end up hiringimmediately? Yeah, I did. I
called up one of my buddies
probably within like, threemonths, I want to say, yeah. I
called up one of my buddies thatI knew from high school that had
gone similar path to me,

(24:16):
worked for a great guy. And Iwas just like, hey, I can do
this, man. Like, just come withme. Come with me. Like, let's
just do it. And he's like, I'min man. And so it just kind of
evolved from there. And youknow, I made a bunch of mistakes
along the way, but I will say,looking back on it, I do feel
like there's a lot of thingsthat I did the right way

(24:40):
that I would recommend to otherpeople to help navigate getting
from that one to two to, like,three to four person type crew,
which it's interesting that youbring up the like, like six man
crew, kind of no man land,because I like it. I really like
it. It's manageable for me. Idon't really.
Have

(25:01):
much back end help. I prettymuch have a couple site
supervisors. I'm actuallylooking to push a guy up and
become a production manager tofree up a little bit more of my
time on the back end.
But I like, I like that model.It is, it is doable, but to jump
back to getting from that, youknow, One Man, Two man, type of

(25:23):
crew. The big thing that Ialways recommend to people is
just start subcontracting stuff.And there's this, like, huge
fear of,
like, Yeah, but they hired me,like, they hired me, and I have
to perform the work. And so,like, when I hired like, this
other guy that, like, comes in,they're like, Who's this guy?

(25:44):
And it is, like, because a lotof the time when you're that one
man crew, you're not creating,like, a ton of leads, you know,
outside of word of mouth, a lotof it's like, word of mouth and
it's this, you know, familymember, friend or so and so and
so they're like, I hired him,and like, these three other guys

(26:04):
came in and were like, workingon my house the whole time, and
it's like, you just got to getover that fear of that, yeah,
that they're hiring a GC,they're not hiring you. And I
think you can communicate thattoo, and it it helps get over
that fear. But you can increaseyour revenue by doing that, and
then you can take back some ofthe stuff that you're

(26:24):
subcontracting by employingsomebody full time. And I think
that's one of the best ways togo from like one or two guys
into like three, you know, fourguys is yeah, you got to
leverage subcontractors. Yeah. Imean, you're drumming up enough
work and creating the lead flowat that point to substantiate if
you want to a bigger in housebusiness, or you can continue to

(26:48):
sell and then just have youryour in house help manage those
people. It's interesting becauseI actually did it reverse from
that, like I went from having inhouse employees and being
stressed with drumming up enoughwork to keep multiple guys busy,
like up to three guys and myselfat one point, you know, running
multiple projects at a time,thinking that was that was the

(27:12):
answer to growth. And it wasn'tuntil I had some health issues,
and then, like, we had somefamily health issues, that I was
like, I get a back off fromthis, I'm going to get rid of
all my employees, I'll have parttime help, and then I'm going to
hire subcontractors, and thenI'm going to basically structure
me getting paid to manage them.And that is what you're talking

(27:34):
about, where it's like now, if Iwant to bring more people in
house, I'm generating enoughwork to cover that, but I also
don't have the stress of needingto put food on the table for
other people, but it gave me anin to be able to grow that as
much as I want. Personally, withwhat I have going on, it doesn't

(27:56):
make sense to grow that bigger,because I just have to put more
work in place, and I have otherirons in the fire, but yeah,
like, that's a great way to doit. You just have to make sure
that, like, you're actuallygetting paid to manage those
people, and not just say, Hey,I'm subcontracting and I'm
putting 15 20% on top of it,because you won't make any money

(28:17):
that way. Like, you have tostructure it as a business, just
like, hey, we're going to selfperform with this crew, and then
this crew is going to managesubcontractors, and you have a
super on that job, like you'repaying that super rate. I think
where you get in trouble is whenyou're the owner of the company
and you're managing subs, andyou're not paying yourself that
rate. Yep, I Tyler, what was,was the timeline for that for

(28:40):
you, when you went from havingemployees, like, how long did
you have employees? And thendecide to scale it back,
probably 10 years. And it wentfrom, like, just me, same thing
as you, hiring a friend, hiringa brother, and then it went to
up to three guys running twojobs, you know, multiple vans.
And then after COVID, I ended upgetting sick twice from working

(29:04):
so much, and then my father inlaw got sick, and I was like,
there's just too much going on.Life's too short right now.
Like, I'm gonna start over. Sothat was probably was a big
reset for a lot of people. Likeit just it allowed so many
people to step back and, like,rethink about how they want to
do things, yeah, yeah. That'sthat's interesting. I want to

(29:25):
ask that question because, youknow, all I've known is good
times is the reality. I'm 33years old. I mean, I bought my
first house in like, 2016
I mean, the bottom of the marketwas, like 2012
like I was already feverishlylook, I was, like, feverishly
looking for real estate when Iwas, like 19, even though I

(29:46):
could never buy anything. Butyou look back and it's like, oh
my gosh, how cheap waseverything then. But our market,
other than, like, that hiccupwith COVID, has just been a
total rocket ship ever since,yeah, and so you.
Go ahead. I mean, I do like tosay, you know, everybody's a
genius in a bull market. And youknow, I mean that about myself

(30:07):
too. Maybe I'm doing the rightthing, but, you know, let's see
what happens when things startto taper off. We might be seeing
a little bit of that right now.Yeah, I feel like I'm in a good
position, but
everybody has all the answerswhen the market does nothing but
go up. Hey guys, quick breakfrom the podcast. Headed over to
modern craftsman.co scroll allthe way to the bottom and sign

(30:28):
up for our newsletter. You'regonna get a weekly email from
us, but you're also gonna getsome episode recaps with
actionable items that can helpyou improve your business and be
more profitable. Now back to thepodcast. Yeah, no, I slowed down
as things got bigger, bigger andbusier, and to be honest, yeah,
the better decisions that Imade, from like, a personal

(30:48):
standpoint, a businessstandpoint, I was able to take a
model that like was working,quote, unquote, but like wasn't
dialed because it was the, itwas the I'm gonna grow. I need
more I need to make more money.We'll put another person. You're
just pulling percentages off ofpeople. And I didn't really have
it dialed and I didn't have,like, the network and the

(31:09):
confidence to sell the actualappropriate rate for people
working for me. So like, by thetime I went back to just working
by myself and then bringing inpart time help, I understood all
of that, and I went back into itlike, oh, wow, I can make a rate
for myself and anyone who'sworking for me. I know that I'm
covering and I just approachedbusiness in a different way,

(31:32):
that I was able to put lesssales volume in work, but just
my margins went way up, and mylife was better, and I had free
time, and I could spend timewith my family, and I wasn't
working myself into the hospitalwhere I was, like, this works
for me. And like, it works. Icould be busier if the phone

(31:52):
stops ringing, I'm still gonnabe okay. And like, for me,
that's just what works from alifestyle perspective, like,
from a business perspective,maybe not the smartest thing in
the world, but I'm protected,and I feel like I'm isolating
myself from a lot of marketfluctuations, and like you talk
about in the survey that we sentyou, like I'm not looking to

(32:15):
create this like 10x culture andgrow to be the Next multi
millionaire and have all answersfor every aspect of business. I
just want a decent lifestyle.Yeah, that's like, a great way
to put it. And I might have evensaid this in the questionnaire.
It's like, I think we need moreguys like me and you Tyler,

(32:36):
and that's part of what our ourindustry maybe doesn't show
enough of is that you can justdo some ordinary things,
extraordinarily well, yeah, andjust be really consistent for a
long time. And it's going totake you a long ways, you know,
some some integrity, someconsistency is, you know, really

(32:59):
what can be the backbone for alot of companies. And I think if
more people knew that, that we'dprobably have more people coming
into the trades. And yeah, it's,it's funny, because when I I
guess it was a couple of yearsago where you know everyone,
everyone that I surround myselfwith, and more business minded

(33:19):
people who are more concerned ongrowing the business more than
the process and the product, andthat there's not a right or
wrong there, but like, I'verealized that at heart,
this is who I am. Like, I likebeing on the tool belt. I like
managing jobs. I like being onevery project. Like, I don't
want to build full houses. Idon't want to build multiple

(33:42):
houses a year like I like beinga part of everything. And I, I
just decided to own that and belike, confident in that. And I,
my goal was to be able toadvocate and communicate and
really
just stand up and celebrate likethe smaller contractors, the
owner operators, the guys andgirls who are running like, you

(34:04):
know, a two to six, seven personbusiness and just doing good
work. And I want them to be ableto understand that like anywhere
in that range, you can structureyour business well enough in any
market to do okay for yourselfand not have to work 100 hours a
week. And like, you'll make goodmoney. And, yeah, you're not

(34:26):
going to be rich. But like, tome, that's the bulk of who we're
speaking to, and the bulk ofpeople who want to get into the
trades. And you see so manypeople where it's like, you
know, we, we, we sold a $300,000bathroom. I'm like, Well, I
couldn't even sell a $300,000edition for a long time. So yep,
like just to be able to speak tothose people and have a

(34:46):
realistic perspective and reallychampion that model and that
effort over the past few yearsis something that I've I've
consciously owned andcelebrated, and you.
Uh, helped coach people on thatmodel that like, it's a doable
model, like, you have threekids, right? You have five, six

(35:07):
people working for you.Hopefully, you're at a point
where you're making money,you're not worried about your
next paycheck, and you're notlike, so stretched for time and
money that you can enjoy life.Yeah, that's exactly where I'm
at. I don't know if I can say itmuch better than the way that
you just explained it. Andthat's exactly I'm, like, a
champion for that too, you know.And I appreciate it so much that

(35:29):
we get that contrast between youand Nick, who are, like two
totally different people, right?Yeah, on this podcast, and you
get both sides of it. And, Imean, it's great, you know, to
get Nick's perspective on stufftoo, because there's so many
things that I pull, you know,from that too. It's just, it's
just easier to just, like, takelike, little things here and

(35:49):
there and go, I can implementthat on a much smaller scale.
Yeah, that's what people don'tunderstand, either that like
it like you as a successfulbusiness owner with five
employees, or me with like, ahalf an employee, you can still
implement a lot of thosestrategies and processes that
those bigger people are playingwith. And there's no like,

(36:12):
there's no reason that you can.And I think understanding that
like, you need to give and take,and you need like, not
everything that I do is going towork for you. Not everything
that Nick does is gonna work forme, but just being able to take
those things and implement them,test them in your market and
like, if they make your lifeeasier, why not use them? Yeah,
I think some of the big things,you know, I was

(36:34):
before I started listening toyou guys, I had,
I had stumbled over Sean VanDyke, who had talked a lot about
pre construction, and, you know,I started implementing a
process, and then I've refinedit a little bit through
listening to you guys as well.And, like, that's that's been
huge, you know, I've been doingpre construction for, I don't

(36:55):
know, two, two and a half years,something like that. And that's
a huge part of my business, youknow, I know you guys talk about
it a lot, but you know, ifyou're not doing it, it's just
like you got to find a way tostart at the at the minimum,
start screening your customersand learning how to back, you
know, create a backlog of leadsso that you can start saying no

(37:16):
more, yeah, because that's howyou ultimately get to the next
thing, which,
you know, I you guys have talkedabout quite a bit too, is ideal
customer, you know, and I'vereally adopted that a little bit
more over the last year or so.Is the ideal job versus the
ideal customer? Yep, and I'm,you know, I'm running two jobs

(37:38):
right now. One's like an adu.We're converting a garage to an
adu and a small addition,
and we're converting a singlefamily to a two family right
now. Those are not my ideal jobslike but we are working with our
ideal customers who value whatwe do, who value our process,

(37:58):
that are willing to invest in alittle bit more quality than
just bottom of the barrel typework, yeah, and know that the
work is going to get done ontime at the price that we talked
about. You know, when thoseleads came in, were you at the
point? We were like, all right,I want to start paying more
attention to client profilerather than job profile.

(38:21):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. It'sfunny. I think both the jobs
that I'm doing right now, at onepoint, I had said no to both of
them, yeah, because at thattime, I was definitely still
thinking a little bit more aboutideal job. But the more that I
just talked to those customers,the more that I realized that
these people value what we'redoing, you know,

(38:42):
let's spend a little bit of timetogether. You know, my process
is, is typically a little bitsomething like this. First off,
we're fixed price, right withallowances, and I think you're
kind of similar to that
I used I used to be I went whenI around COVID. I went to time
of material, but it in like atthis point. Now, if I were to go

(39:06):
to fixed cost, it wouldn't beany different than what I do
now. It's the same thing. Isright? You can, you could tell
me a bit. I know, I know nowthat, like, I just need to track
my costs, daily, weekly, biweekly, and then fixed cost
works. But if you don't trackyour costs real time, like,
fixed costs can bite you, right?So, I mean, I generally, know my

(39:29):
market, we're not doing customhigh end where there's, like,
this huge Delta on, like, whatyou can end up with, right? So,
you know, I can generally, youknow, on a first phone call with
a customer. Hop on the phonewith them. They're looking to do
an addition. We'll take a lookat the GIS map, see what their
setbacks are, see if it's evenplausible. Because right away,

(39:49):
what I'm doing is I'm going downthe list, and I'm trying to find
ways to disqualify the job assoon as possible so I can save
myself as much time as possible,right? You know, if we get
through those.
You know, five, six things thatwe're looking at, you know,
eventually, you know, the budgetquestion is coming up, you know,
like, what? What's your budgetfor this project? And it's like,
sometimes you just sit therekind of quietly and just wait.

(40:12):
And some people are just totallyhonest with you, you know, what
they have for a budget? Somepeople are like, well, we're
kind of just shopping, and I tryand play the game a little bit,
it's like, look, here's here'sthe amount of information that I
have right now at this time, youknow, I can probably spit out a
number that's plus or minus 15%you know, that will get most

(40:33):
people to where they need to befor a job like this, right? If
we're keeping things reasonable,you know, we're just doing
hardwood floors, blue board andplaster, you know, it's a living
room or something like that.There's only so many ways that
you can do a living. Yeah,right? The chances are I can
probably give you a price that'splus or minus 15% over the
phone. If we're off by 50%there's not a job, right? If

(40:57):
we're off by 15 even 20% youknow, there's probably something
to look into, right? So, at thatpoint, you know, we tell them a
little bit more about preconstruction, and that's when we
book a site evaluation. Andwe're still working for free. At
this point, we'll come out,we'll look at the property,
we'll gather information at theproperty, but at least we've

(41:17):
already talked about budget,right?
And I'll try and get to, youknow, like a plus or minus 10%
number, essentially, is, is kindof what I call it. It's, it's a
free estimate, but it's reallylike a
20 to 30 minute, like very briefScope of Work total number with
no allowances, based on XYZ, youknow, is a lot of that based on

(41:40):
just previous work that you'vedone, to give you, like, a gut
check number, yeah, yeah,exactly it, you know, I'll look
back at previous projects, youknow, some per square foot
numbers. To some extent, I douse some software, but no, like,
crazy CRM or anything. But, youknow, I do have a bunch of
inputs for, like, square footprices and stuff like that, to

(42:02):
get us to somewhere that, youknow, I can take about a half an
hour. I've got a really warmlead at this point, and, you
know, I've got a plausibleproject at that point is when,
you know, it's like, Okay, Ithink we can come in around this
number, plus or minus 10% youknow, if that's in your budget,
and you feel like we're theright person for you, you know,
you've seen our portfolio ofwork. We've got, you know,

(42:22):
customers who will let you walkthrough their house, you know.
And you know, speak kindly aboutus. You probably know two or
three people, because we don'treally travel more than 2030,
minutes. You probably know a fewpeople that we know. And if
we're the right guy for you,let's, let's jump into pre
construction. If that numberdoesn't align for you, then
there's no sense in buildingplans for this project. Yeah,

(42:43):
right, sure.
So, yeah, we build the planswith them. We we put together
full specifications for theproject. You know, detailed
scope of work, but at the end ofit, we are fixed price with
allowances for the couple thingsthat we can't select,
countertops, you know, maybesome fixtures, light fixtures,
door knobs, things like that.Sure.

(43:06):
And how many jobs are youcurrently? Are you doing? Like,
two jobs at a time, three jobsat a time? Yeah, our kind of
like, our place that I like tobe is, you know, something like
a between a two and $400,000 jobthat I can send my guys to for,
you know, somewhere betweenthree and five months, yeah,

(43:27):
something like that. And thenwhen we get contractor heavy,
when we start getting intoinsulation, blue board and
plaster and stuff like that,we're usually filling in with,
like, a deck, maybe a roof,
you know, a couple smaller jobsthat we can knock out in, like a
couple weeks, wrap up and getback to trimming the place out.
Yeah, pretty much self performedtrim and GC were kind of like

(43:49):
the glue between all the trades,
which is probably where you findyourself a lot of the time too.
It's probably exactly what youdo. So how do you balance like
with that model, right? Youyou're leaving the door open if
you need to self perform andkeep your your staff busy. But
there's probably times whereit's like, we need to sub this

(44:11):
because we need to get somethingout. How do you balance that
with your subcontractor pool,where it's like, hey, some jobs
we might be handling this. Somejobs we're gonna need your help.
I mean, I just, I have goodrelationships with subs. I think
it's as simple as that is, youknow, you're honest with people.
You know, I'm on the phone witha lot of people, a lot, you

(44:33):
know, talking about how toimprove, how to be better. You
know, it's like, it's acommunity of people, you know,
they're not just subs that thatjust show up, that I don't know,
that I just cut a check to, youknow, we're talking a lot of the
time, and so, yeah, they don'tget every single job. Sometimes
we self perform, sometimes wesub it out. But, I mean, at the

(44:55):
end of the day, we got to payour bills, and my first priority
is, you know, putting money inthe pockets.
My employees and take care ofthem and their family. So yeah,
comes first and foremost.Anything. Do you think that when
you started hiring employees,like post COVID, and started
building more of, you know, acompany, and became a business
owner, that that really gaveyou, like, the insight

(45:18):
as far as leadership goes andlike, how to structure
leadership and how to leadpeople where it's not just you
it's not just you and one personanymore, now, you're navigating
you know, being a leader foryour clients being a leader for
your subcontractors and youryour team internally,
um I don't know, I think I'vealways kind of been like a

(45:39):
leader it's kind of like anatural trait. You know, when
you're like, seven and you breakoff into groups and in school,
you know, it's like, somebody'sgot to take the lead. It's like,
That's me. I'm just kind of thatguy. I just, you know, naturally
take the lead on things.
So that's kind of always beenthere for me.
But when you get older andpeople have personalities, you

(46:03):
definitely got to know how tomanage personalities, manage
people, and not everybody's thesame. You know, everybody gets
frustrated dealing withcustomers. Sometimes that's that
can always be a challenge, butthat's why we put emphasis on
ideal customer.
You know, I'll never forget thetime that I missed, you know, a
red flag from a customer, andit's, it's my only bad Google

(46:25):
review that I have. And I mean,we put out a totally kick ass
project for them, it's just,like, just unreasonable
customer, and I had missed a redflag when I was there looking at
their project, and she's like,we've had so many contractors
and we've been screwed over byeveryone, and I'm just like, oh,
okay, yeah. I mean, I could see,yeah. I mean, if we don't do it

(46:48):
that way, we might you know,thinking that I can be the
person that's going to this,yeah, save you, yeah, I can. I'm
that guy. We're that good. Wecan definitely do this. No, it
wasn't. It was just like, itwas, like, every little thing
was like a disaster. And at theend of it, I mean, it was a
gorgeous product that you know,they gave us, like, a one star

(47:10):
review for. And it was justlike, Okay, if you know, if you
wanted to leave a four star Iunderstand, you know, you
weren't boiled throughout theprocess. But one, star I mean,
you've got a totally, you know,totally new sided house, new
roof, new bathroom, newcountertops, like, it all looks
great. I mean, it's like whatyou were talking about earlier,
where even you have people whoare going to be upset when you

(47:33):
don't show up to the job, right?Or, like you, you sold this job,
and now you're subcontracting itout. And like,
typically, if you, if youexecute, or you've aligned
expectations from the outset, itdoesn't matter who does the
work, how it gets done, like if,if it's meeting the expectation.
And in this situation, itprobably sounds like

(47:53):
expectations weren't aligned, orthey were unrealistic
expectations from from theoutset that were never
addressed. So it's like itdoesn't matter what you do how
you do it if if your paint islaced with gold they're just not
going to be happy because you'renot you're not meeting their
expectations whatever, orhowever asinine they may be,

(48:16):
yeah some people just can't bepleased I think it's as simple
as that. And waiting thosepeople out as quickly as
possible, and not missing thosered flags is one of the most
important lessons I've learnedover the years. Yeah, so there's
obviously a ton of challengeswith our business, with our
industry. You've been prettyvocal about the skilled trades
gap and getting youth into theindustry. How does that, or how

(48:40):
has that impacted and challengedyour day to day business over
the past few years? Oh, yeah,that's a good question. I mean,
I'm here, and we're doing thispodcast right now, and my guys
are out working in the field, soyou've definitely got a balance.
It's tough. I mean, I was on mycomputer till 1am last night,

(49:01):
trying to pump some stuff out. Ispent about like, six hours on
young craftsman last night.
When you're passionate aboutsomething, I think you find the
time to do it. You know, youpush yourself to do things that
you otherwise wouldn't do if youif you weren't so passionate
about it. So, yeah, the skilledtrades gap is important. I think
that

(49:22):
you know, I feel like we're acommunity of people
let me ask you this
I think Gary I think Gary Katzactually touched on this when he
was on with you guys did youever feel at one point like you
were a cast off, or somethingless than because you were going

(49:43):
into the trades, or you were,yeah, I mean, absolutely it was.
It trades weren't an option. Tobe completely honest, it was
like, do anything but this. So Iwent the standard route, right?
I took my SATs, reluctantly, um.
Um, I applied to college, I wentto college, I completed college,

(50:04):
and then when I got done, I waslike, I don't want to do any of
this crap. So I ended upstarting my own business. I
think it was 23
there are many days similar toyou where I was like, Maybe I
should go do something else. ButI think that
I really had an issue early on,when clients were and still to

(50:24):
this day, like when clients wereto either belittle me or treat
me that like my time was not asvaluable as theirs. And I took a
I really
that stood out to me and thatimpacted me greatly to the to
the tune that I wanted to createa business and a model and

(50:45):
really champion craft and tradeand small business owners to be
something that you could beproud of and that you can make a
good living, and that like youdon't have to work for somebody
who doesn't value your time orbe a little as what You do, or
thinks that your time is lessvaluable than theirs. And like
most of my clients are whitecollar clients, but I will not

(51:08):
tolerate being treated as thoughI'm below them, or my employees
or my subcontractors that arebelow them. That's where I like
have a draw a hard line in thesand. So yeah, like I still, to
this day, I think that there's alot of that going around, and a
lot of people experience that,yeah, oh, I get you fired up.
Man, yeah, it really does. No,you make such a good point.

(51:32):
That's a, I mean, I'vedefinitely felt that feeling
before, too, and it's just like,you don't own me, you know. So I
think the general consensus,though, is most people in the
trades have felt that feeling atsome point, sure, and I think
that that's something that kindof, like binds us all together,
and that is something thatdefinitely motivates me. Is

(51:55):
like, these are my people. Thisis my community, and I want to
help uplift this community. Youknow, I've, like, had some
modest success, you know, like Isaid, I'm, I'm not a multi
millionaire, you know, I'm notlooking at 10x or anything like
that. I think that,
you know, I'm, you know, I'minvested in some real estate.
And, you know, like you I've gotsome irons and other fires, and,

(52:21):
you know, I'm being smart aboutwhat I'm doing, but you know,
you start to have a littlesuccess, and you look at how you
can help your group of people,you know, and help uplift them.
Just I think, you know, youngcraftsman is my vehicle for
doing that. And the moderncraftsman podcast for you guys
is, it seems like it's yourvehicle for doing that too. And
I coach and do one on ones andstuff like that. And it's, it's

(52:44):
very similar. I'm, you know, Ispend time talking to other
people too. I do like a littlebit of coaching here and there
with people.
But, yeah, the young Crossmanfoundation really is kind of my
vehicle to be able to give backto the trades and help uplift
people. Yeah, so tell us moreabout that for people who are
unfamiliar with it. Yeah, soit's something I started last

(53:05):
year. We became a charity inMassachusetts towards the end of
the year in 2024
and then we received 501, c3,status, but at the federal level
at the beginning of 2025
and so that came a little bitfaster than we thought it was
going to come through. And sowe're now kind of pushing up

(53:28):
against some fast deadlines todeliver on some tool sets to
kids who are going to begraduating high school this
year. And so the general ideafor the young craftsman
Foundation is to support kidswho are going to be taking a
career in the trades. You know,the trades is just not

(53:49):
subsidized, really, in any typeof way. There is educational
stuff,
and it's kind of funny, youknow, as we've been looking for
funding to help us grow thisfoundation. You know, we're
having some difficulty findinggrants and other institutional
like type of investments outthere to, you know, get some

(54:10):
money, because there's prettymuch always an educational
factor inside of all thesefunding opportunities that we
don't qualify for. And it's alittle bit ironic, because the
trades is just so hands on. Andmy general feeling is that
as good as education is, youcannot replicate what happens in

(54:33):
the field and on job sitesinside of a classroom, sure,
right? So I think that that'sgood, but the difference in what
we're doing is that we are we'retaking applications from
students who are graduating.We're looking at, you know, how
well they finished in theirclass. So we're getting their
transcripts. We're gettingreferral letters from their from

(54:57):
their trade shop teacher and or.
Co Op people that they may haveworked for over the summers or
throughout the year. We'relooking at if they have a
resume, or if they're activelyseeking a job, or if they
already
actually landed a job for posthigh school, and we're factoring
all that in, as well as some yesand no type questions and

(55:21):
a couple open responsequestions. And so we're we're
trying to figure out who's goingto be in the trades, who's
really committed to doing this,and who we feel like might have
an opportunity to have a goodcareer. And we want to support
those people by sending them atool package, scholarship, you
could call it. That's going tobe valued around $1,000 and so

(55:43):
this is nationwide. This isn'tjust mass, right, yep. So we're
going to be shipping all overthe nation.
We a couple months back, like Isaid, this thing's been fast
moving. A couple months back, Iwas able to meet with one of the
CO owners of Acme tools, whichis pretty much the largest
online retailer of tools. Whenyou take out, like Amazon Home

(56:06):
Depot, and most, you know, theyare a tool outlet, and that is
it, you know,
he took my call, we hopped on avirtual and he's like, I'm in,
you know, he was all about it.And so we're actually going to
have our participating partnersship the tools that they're
donating to the young craftsmanfoundation to Acme. Acme is

(56:27):
actually going to package thoseup and send them out to the
recipients for us. And so that'slike a super valuable
partnership that we were able toland early on that's, you know,
going to help us really grow andscale here, because we don't
want to be a logistics companyat all. You know, we're, we're
totally volunteer run, like Isaid, I'm running a full time

(56:49):
residential remodeling designbuild company.
And as well as the rest of thepeople that are involved, you
know, they're all doing theirown things. They either have a
business or, like even one ofour board members is, is a is a
teacher? Yeah, a shop teacher,actually.
So how are people finding outabout this? Yeah, so we have not

(57:13):
launched the application yet.We're, like, really close, but
we've able, we've been able tolink up with Skills USA and so
we have, we have a database to alarge number of vocational
schools. We're going to besending out a blast pretty
quickly. I'm hoping ourapplication is going to be live
in the next two weeks, becauseour expected timeline is for our

(57:34):
participating partners to shipto Acme in mid May, and we want
to be delivering 100 toolpackages for carpentry students
across America at the beginningof June this year. And so, you
know, that's our goal for thisyear. It's coming really quick.
We've had some awesomeparticipation, especially from

(57:57):
small businesses. I mean, man,have like, the small guys really
come out in support. You know,we've got, like, badger tool
belts supporting us. You metwith Joel. Joel, yeah, yeah.
Joel is awesome. And, I mean, hejust, he's volunteering his
time. He's, you know, agreed tocontinue to help us out. Moving
forward, we might even find somesort of position in the in the

(58:20):
nonprofit for him.
And I mean, squidgy, that'sanother one. I mean, these are
people that are making premiumproducts, that are donating
their products. So these kidsare going to show up in pretty,
pretty nice, yeah, pretty nicestuff day one, which I think is

(58:44):
really cool, you know? I thinkit's awesome. I think that it's
going to really help
them feel respected and feellike they're
contributing to the job site.Day one, you know. So is that?
So, like, the short term goal ofthis right where it's like, we
want to get the tools in thehands of these students who are

(59:06):
entering the trades. You know,promote the trades, promote kids
taking, like, an alternativecareer path. Is the the bigger
large like, Do you have a largerpicture goal, or is the larger
picture goal, just to try andhelp affect these young, young
students, and change theiroutlook, and change their

(59:28):
perception of their career pathto be one that's like, more
worthy, more validated, ratherthan something that people are
looking down on. Yeah, it'sboth. So, yeah, short term, next
year, we want to deliver on 200tool packages to carpentry, 200
200 to plumbing and 200 toelectrical. And so that'll be

(59:50):
our goal for 2026
but yeah, in the short term,it's, it's to empower these
people to feel respected and beproductive day one on their job
site.
Points and have rapid careergrowth, and we feel like putting
the tools in their hands to dothat, and to go back real quick
just a little bit. One of theone of the parts of our

(01:00:12):
application that's technicallybonus points is, you know, below
average median income. So wewant to get this into the hands
of people that otherwise wouldnot be able to afford these
tools, too, yeah, especially,
you know, I remember, you know,other people coming out to job
sites and wearing, like, arenter belt, you know, one

(01:00:35):
that's kind of like, beat up andleft over and just sitting in
the tool trailer, right? Andit's like, here you go, throw
this on. It's just, like, moreoften than not, those people
last like, two weeks, you know,two months, maybe something like
that. They're not invested. Andso we want people to be
invested. We want them to stickaround and be in the trades for
a long time. And I think thatthis is something that's going

(01:00:56):
to do that for them long term,though.
Yeah. So it, it's, it's, kindof,
how do I say this? It's, it'sdifficult to have real large
scale change. You know, you guyshad Mike Rowe on. He kind of
touched on this a little bit.The trades need a massive PR

(01:01:17):
campaign, right? It because wejust need people lining up at
the door and demanding that thechange happen. And I think that
that's part of what we can do. Ithink we can be a part of that
PR campaign to make the tradescool. I think that what we're
doing is very like videoable orcapturable, but, you know,

(01:01:41):
I think it's something reallycool that can highlight the
trades. And so, yeah, it's, it'sshining a light on the trades to
create some buzz around it, sothat people are aware. And it
sounds kind of cheesy, but likewe just need that. We need
people to know that this ishere,

(01:02:02):
yeah, and for, for no otherreason than just to contribute
to, like, the industry, to theyouth. I think that a lot of
people do things for,
you know, the to get creditedfor doing it right, where it's
like, you can just do somethinglike this. You don't necessarily

(01:02:24):
have to expect anything inreturn. It can just be to help
people, and even if it's, it's asmall impact on a handful of
people, like with the theproblem is massive. Like it, it
trumps all of us. It's, it'smore than just anything that you
or I or Mike Rowe or Nick moderncraftsman, whoever it is, is

(01:02:46):
going to be able to tackle onour own. But I've always just
been of the mindset where it'slike, We're not naive to the
fact that we have a very smallpart in this, but it's also
like, just because it's onlyhelping a small amount of people
doesn't mean that you shouldn'tdo it right. Like, the problem's
huge, and maybe we all don'thave an impact individually. But

(01:03:09):
when you stack up those thosechips and one small decision and
one small effort at a time, thesum of that winds up being
something very powerful and likejust to view something as
insurmountable or just thismassive undertaking, and, you
know, it doesn't really matterwhat I do, like, it's not going
to change anything on a greaterscale. And I think that if

(01:03:32):
that's the mindset that we have,yet, nothing is going to change.
And maybe, maybe it doesn'tchange for 10 years. Maybe it
doesn't change for 20 years, butI think that the the
sum of all of our decisions, thesum of all of our efforts, will
make an impact in some way,shape or form, and even if it's
just one person, like to me,that winds up being worth it.

(01:03:55):
Like, I'm sure that with withwork, with your foundation, I
know I can speak for myself andsay that, like, Yeah, I do. I do
a lot of this to pay my bills,but once the money's there and
it pays for like, I'm not, I'mnot holding any sort of
sentiment to that, like that thefinancial weight of the money.

(01:04:16):
But I have note cards and I haveletters and I have emails from
people thanking me, and I thinkabout that daily, but I'm not
thinking about the check thatsomebody paid me for, final
payment on a job daily. So likethat, there is something to be
said for being able to give backand just that, like self
fulfillment, of being able tohelp people and impact other

(01:04:40):
people's lives that is really,really important, and I think a
lot of times, has a higherbearing on
us emotionally than thefinancial aspect of our
business, right? Yeah, you saidthat really well, and I spoke
about it similarly before. I'mnot naive to what our.
Immediate impact is right, but Ido believe, collectively, all of

(01:05:05):
us, kind of screaming from themountaintops about this,
eventually needs to create somesort of institutional change
that's going to be implemented.
You know, we have local vo techschools around here, and I have
people tell me that 20% of thekids that go there, that take a
trade, actually go into theirtrade, right? So 80% of these

(01:05:30):
kids are, I don't know. They'regoing to either college or going
to work at McDonald's or justgoing into some other totally
different field. They're notpursuing the trade that they
actually took. And so can youimagine if we were able to get
that number to just like 40 or50%
right? And so there needs to bethat institutional change. But

(01:05:53):
to answer your question aboutwhat our plans are long term as
well, I really would like to youknow, long term, become like a
like a broad range resource forthe trades. And, you know, I
don't have anything tangiblywritten out for this yet, but in
my mind, it looks like somethinglike where we're providing

(01:06:14):
guidance to people who arelooking to enter the trade, so
that they know what a goodemployment opportunity looks
like. Sure, so that we'refostering continual good
workmanship, right? Just goodquality workers, so that
collectively, the entire tradesjust gets uplifted. And, you
know, carpentry in particularreally needs that, you know, we

(01:06:37):
just don't have that barrierlike plumbing and electrical,
where we're highly regulated.You know, anybody can hop in a
truck and grab a hammer andbecome a carpenter, right? It's
even worse in Jersey, you guyshave, like, testing and
licensing we do not like, forus, it's just getting a

(01:06:58):
registration with the Divisionof Consumer Affairs, having
insurance. They just recentlyrequired a bond, which is just
paying a paying another fee. Butthere's really no sort of
screening to be in business as aremodeling contract or a home
builder in Jersey, right? And Idon't know if I dislike that or

(01:07:19):
like it. I mean, generally, I'ma capitalist, so I like to let
the free market work. You know,the cream of the crop rises to
the top right. And so thatusually comes out in way of
reviews, and, you know, word ofmouth and different things like
that. And so, you know, I, oneof my philosophies, for sure, is
that you don't need a poo poo onthe other people, just to like,

(01:07:41):
just to say that how you'redoing it is, is better.
You can be doing it a better waywithout shitting on the other
people that are doing it adifferent way. Because the
reality is, is that as much aswe talk about people who get
screwed over by those people,there are other people that also
need,

(01:08:03):
you know, some inexpensive work.There's just people that need a
roof over their head, that just,they need the they need the
washer fixed in their sink, youknow, and they don't need a
brand new faucet. And you knowthat 10, $15 is really important
to them. And, yeah, I'm gonna,you know, fairly, you know, low
to median market around here.And so, you know, the one thing

(01:08:26):
that I definitely don't like forsure is when people have to, you
know, shit on how the littleguys are doing, or something
like that. But, yeah, it's Nickjust sent out an email with
regards to that. And I actuallyjust recorded on midweek, on
something similar, where, youknow, Nick's, Nick's theory,
which I forget who the quote wasby, but like, essentially,

(01:08:47):
there's two ways to be thetallest building, and one is by
building it up, brick by brick,and the other one's by tearing
everything down. And like, wewant to be a resource that helps
people build themselves up andnot do so by tearing others down
around them. And I think thatthat's the attitude that we we

(01:09:08):
really need to adopt for ourbusiness. It's, it's super
competitive, it's super pricedriven. And there's a time a lot
of the time, yeah, yeah. Yeah,there's like, a time to place
for everything. There's there'sa client for everyone. It's not
all about the huge dollarprojects. It's not about putting

(01:09:30):
the best product in all thetime, like some people just need
function. And there's nothingwrong with that. And there's a
lot of our industry and a lot ofour our nation that's made up of
those type of projects, andlet's be honest, like that's
what most people are gettinginto the trades are probably
going to be dealing with and andto create a community or

(01:09:51):
resource that's that's biggerthan those people and has their
back, I think that's what'sreally important.
Important, like for people to begetting into the trades, did not
feel alone, and that somebodyhas their back and there's a
community behind them, I thinkis really, really important,
because it's the same thing youmentioned, where you feel like

(01:10:13):
you're you're a cast out, oryou're not worth anything, or
you're just like a degenerate,and you went into the trades
because there was no otheroption. It's like, well, no,
that's not always the case, justlike any other industry, that
sometimes is the case, but like,there is a life here for you,
there is a good life here foryou, and there are people here
who have your back. And I thinkthat that's something that we

(01:10:35):
all need to do a better job of,and being inclusive and
understanding how we treatpeople, how we react to people,
and how we judge and criticizewhat other people are doing,
yeah, and I think that that cansometimes be the downside of,
like, the whole Instagram thing,you know, and what's out there.

(01:10:56):
But, yeah, I do. I want people.I mean, I've gotten caught up in
that, you know, it's like you'retrying to just do projects that
post beautifully and everythingand look as if you're doing
everything right. But, I mean,even Nick does a great job
talking about, look, if you pullback the curtain, I mean,
there's nonsense, you know, thatyou're, you're always dealing
with. There's always stuff.Yeah, always. And so I really

(01:11:19):
appreciate you know, howcandidly you guys talk about it
on here.
I, I hate to go back into it alittle bit, but, you know,
sometimes that's, that's thefeeling that I get from like the
build science community, isthat, listen, if you're not
doing it this way, then you areless than and so, you know, I
would just say, you know, don'tworry. I, you know, if you're

(01:11:43):
one of those people that youfeel like I have to do this, I
have to be using these products.Otherwise, I'm not, you know,
doing this. If the right way,don't worry about it. You're
actually in the majority. Thosepeople that are doing that stuff
are in the minority. Yeah, it'sjust very Instagramable. It's
very it's crazy. Shows very welland there. And, no, it's fine.

(01:12:05):
They're looking for their idealcustomer too, and so they're
putting out what they want toget back so, so I understand, I
think the only thing that Iwould just say is, like, you
don't have to put down everybodyelse that's doing it a different
way in order to prove that yourway is the best. You know, yeah,
and like that. I mean, there'sdefinitely a community out there
that supports that as well.Like, you can get the book
pretty good house and, like,that's, to me, that's, that's a

(01:12:28):
principle, I think that isscalable, that's attainable for
a lot of people, where that'swhere I want to live, and those
are the people that I want tosupport and that I want to
really represent as best as Ican and be an advocate for where
it's like, hey, you know, it'swe're not the multi, multi
million dollar business. We'renot working for the elite two,

(01:12:49):
3% we're working for everydaypeople who want to build a
quality product and have someconcerns and want things done a
certain way, like
and afford me the protection andmy business, the protection and
being able to maintain thereputation that I want for my
business, like, that's myclient, but you don't, you don't

(01:13:09):
have to build these crazyhouses. You don't have to
implement these crazy details,most of which are not proven at
this point at all. I was justwatching something the other day
where I'm like, like, this isjust so insane and overboard and
over the top and not proven andcomplicated that I'm like, What

(01:13:30):
are we doing? Like, yeah, whatare we do? Like, why and and
again, the impact when thesethings go wrong, and how
complicated and I'm I'm justthinking to myself, like, if you
just think about the extra laborthat this person's having to
spend and the
the environmental impact of themdriving the car back and forth

(01:13:53):
to tape a house 700 times andlayer stuff inside and outside,
I'm like, I'm pretty sure thatwe just ruined more ozone that
the utilities were ever going todo for the life span of that
house in general. Yeah, but, butI digress. One other, one other
thing.
So you said that you have threedaughters now, and that's that's

(01:14:16):
got to be a huge part of yourstory, and business and
leadership and setting anexample for them. And obviously,
work life balance, and you saidthat you went back into business
when your second was comingaround. You have three now. So
like, what does work lifebalance look like for you now?
And how is that? Either, how hasit evolved, or how does it

(01:14:40):
continue to evolve? Yeah, soit's funny. I found myself
saying it to people this thispast weekend at JLC live, you
know, people asking if I wasgoing to be back on Saturday to
meet up and stuff. And, youknow, it's just like, you know,
I don't think I'm going togenerally, I like to keep my
weekends, and I like to be homefor dinner at the dinner table
with my kids.
It's, you know, and those, thoseare my two number one rules. Is

(01:15:03):
home for the weekends and and atthe dinner table with my kids.
You know, generally, you know,I, you know, it's not like
that's the only time that I makepretty much after dinner is
always free with my kids aswell. And then during the week,
it just depends. Sometimes, youknow, I can give myself some
time, you know, between wrappingup between four and six, you

(01:15:26):
know, to spend time with thekids. Sometimes I'm working
right up to dinner.
And, you know, I think thatanybody that really wants to
achieve something worthwhile isgoing to put in more than just a
40 hour week, right? So it is,it is finding that balance. But,
you know, I'm really fortunateto have the support of my wife

(01:15:47):
and my family. And, you know, mywife was a teacher, she works
with me now, and so that was ahuge change for us. You know, we
kind of, we looked at things andwe said, you know, it's just so
crazy and hectic withbabysitting or in daycare and
stuff like that. I was spendingmore time, and she was spending
more time on the road and justrunning back and forth all over

(01:16:09):
the place that you know,ultimately we decided, you know,
let's, let's just get you home.She helps me out a little bit on
the backside with the business,but just having the flexibility
that we have now is it'sparamount. I mean, it's just
such a breath of fresh air tofeel like I have control over

(01:16:31):
the majority of my life. I thinkmost people that run a business
still do understand that. Youknow, you do still have a boss,
and it's whoever your currentcustomers are and future ones,
right? Most people running abusiness also feel that their
life is out of control. A lot,yeah, yeah. And sometimes I can

(01:16:51):
feel like that, but I kind oflike it that way.
Yeah, you know, I like givingmyself constraints, right? It's
giving myself goals and thingsthat sometimes seem slightly
unattainable, and making myselfgo out and achieve those things.
Yeah, so, you know, workingwithin those constraints is, you

(01:17:11):
know, brings out the best inyou, being that you and your
wife are, are now in thebusiness. You know, you're
working together and you'reraising a family around this
environment. What? What impactdo you hope that that provides
for your children? And how doyou
hope your kids like what do youhope that they learn from

(01:17:33):
watching you grow this businessand work together with your
wife?
I think the big thing, you know,the big word for me that is,
like, the number one thing formy business is integrity, right?
So I hope, number one, that theylearn integrity. But on top of

(01:17:54):
that, you know, I hope they seehard work, you know, I want them
to learn hard work, but one ofthe best life skills that I
really want them to learn isfinancial literacy, which is
just so overlooked. You know,there's nobody teaching you any
of the stuff that I've learnedover the last 10 years. You
know, since I've been on my own,if you want to find out you know

(01:18:17):
how to be financially literate,you got to go find out yourself.
You gotta, you gotta ask people.You gotta start watching some
YouTube videos, prompt some AI.You know,
I feel like a lot of times it's,it's making mistakes right and
making the wrong decisions, andat least managing the amount of
mistakes that you make, so thatyou're not putting yourself in

(01:18:38):
an imposition, for sure, andthat's why I say go out on your
own while you're young, you canmake a bunch of mistakes, you
know. I had the benefit of mywife and I bought a two family
and this was in a market whereour downstairs rent was paying
for the entire building, plusour cable bill, you know, and so

(01:19:02):
I literally could have screwedup every way to Sunday. And I
did, you know, I pretty muchdid. I There were times where,
you know, I remember my firstjob, when I went out on my own,
I built these beautiful, custombuilt in cabinets, and when it
was all said and done, I mean, Iwas so proud of it, but I looked
at what I made, and it was like,$4 an hour or something,

(01:19:24):
you know, I'm like, Yeah, thisis awesome, you know. So I mean,
yeah, make, make a bunch ofmistakes while you're young. But
yeah, getting back to my kids,yeah, financial literacy is just
so important, learning how toinvest. You know, I look forward
to employing my three littlegirls in my business at some

(01:19:45):
point and just finding a way toget them involved. You know, I
don't want them to inheritmoney. I want them to inherit
responsibility. And, you know,learn how to be a real positive
contributor into life. Um.
You know, whether they go tocollege or if they want to get
into the workforce, we'll seewhere, you know, we're we're a

(01:20:06):
ways away from it, but, yeah,it'll be here sooner than you
know it, yeah. So, so we'replanning for it, for sure. I
think we're doing the rightthings in that regards. And you
know, I look forward to whenthat time comes where I can work
with my kids. Yeah, so youmentioned it a few times, as far
as integrity being reallyimportant to you and a core

(01:20:29):
aspect of your business, what inthe simplest terms, does that
mean for you, and how does thatthat term and having that as one
of your core values really setyou up for everyday life. I
think it's just the finishedproduct over profit is what it
has to be, and that's why goingback to, you know, making $4 an

(01:20:55):
hour on that first project, youknow, I wasn't like, I'm going
to stop doing this project rightnow, or go back to the customer
and say, Hey, I significantlyunder bid this. I need more
money. Or whatever it is. It'sit's having the integrity to
continue doing that, that thing,and do it to the best of your
ability with no compromise infinishing it and being proud of

(01:21:18):
it, even though you didn't makea product a profit. Well, now
you need to adjust right now.Now you need to learn how to
make a profit. You need to learnabout some other stuff. You
know, learn from your mistakes,right? But like you said, it's
it's minimizing those mistakesand learning how you can get
better. But you know, myemployees are instilled with

(01:21:40):
that same confidence that we donot make financial decisions
over, you know, the quality ofthe product. If we say, If we
say that we're going to dosomething, we're going to do it,
regardless of whether we screwedup the price or not. And my guys
are empowered to always do theright thing on a job site. And I
think that that's superimportant to, you know, make

(01:22:02):
sure that your employees feelthat way, that they never have
to cover something up, because
that's the only way to build asustainable business over long
term. Yeah, I think that that'sthe big picture, right, where
you have to get past the pointwith employees, with your
experience, with with your yourstandard operating procedures,

(01:22:23):
that you get to a point whereyou can either capture some of
those mistakes in your costingor you can nip them in the bud
before you get there. But like,you have to balance the growth
with how much you can give awayand how much you can concede.
And I think that it's importantto note that, like, mistakes
happen, yeah, make them, right?Like, have the integrity. But if

(01:22:45):
you're finding yourself in aposition where you're constantly
in the bookcase situation whereyou're making $4 an hour, and
you continue to say, Well, yeah,like, I want to uphold my
integrity, you're just beingfoolish, because your model is
not a sustainable picture,right? So like, have integrity
for yourself. Have integrity foryour business. For your clients.

(01:23:06):
Understand that you're givingaway a lot for free, and find
out what changes you need tomake so that you can actually
uphold a better business modelthan one for you know where
you're making $4 an hour to ownyour own business with a lot of
liability and a lot of risk?Yeah, look, I wish it didn't
take me five, six years, orwhatever it was, to figure it

(01:23:27):
out, right? I would, yeah, Iwish it didn't take going to
work for somebody else torealize that, no, I belong
working on my own. But that'swhy having an outlet like like
you guys,
I wish that I knew other peoplethat could have helped me
sooner, and that's part of why Ireally enjoy giving back. I

(01:23:50):
spend a lot of time just talkingto my subcontractors, other
people that you know I tossleads to, you know, guys that
are a little bit younger thanme, or have, like, a one man
crew, people that are aspiringto, you know, just get like to
like that one more notch, youknow, basically, you know, to a
couple guys, or get out of thatrut of, you know, I think most

(01:24:15):
guys, fortunately, aren't making$4 an hour, Yeah? But,
you know, get over that hump?Yeah. Yeah. You know they want
to get over that hump. And I geta lot of enjoyment out of
telling them what my process waslike and what helped me get to
where I'm at now, which I'mreally comfortable with.

(01:24:35):
Yeah. So I have one lastsomewhat, I guess, oddball
question, but what's somethingabout the industry that you wish
more people understood, orsomething that we don't talk
enough about?
Hmm,
you know it's it could be goodor bad, like or both.

(01:24:56):
Truthfully, I, I don't know. Imean, I.
I'm just, I think it goes backto like, I'm a very, like, goal
driven person, and whatever itis in front of me, I just come
up with a solution and deal withit, you know, so, like, I don't,
I guess I'm not somebody thatdwells on or overthinks things

(01:25:17):
and, you know, is a sad puppyabout, you know, I wish that,
you know, we were respectedbetter for this and that, or
what I don't know. You know,it's funny that you say that,
because, like, one of thebiggest things that I've said to
people, where they just hadthis, like, insane realization,

(01:25:37):
is that, like, we're making allof this up. Every job that you
put a number on, you're makingit up, regardless of how many
past projects you've done, youknow, no matter how much
information you have, no matterhow much you've invested in
software and CRMs and everythingelse, like at the end of the
day, we're just taking stabs atthis, and you're making it up,

(01:25:57):
and you're trying to build thesejobs on paper. And when people
understand that, like, yeah,there's a big guessing game
aspect to this, and that nobodyhas all the answers. It's like
finding out that your parentswere just making it up the
entire time. Like, now that youhave your own kids, and you're
like, Oh, my parents had no ideawhat they were doing. It's like

(01:26:19):
that big secret to me, whereit's like, just keep making good
decisions, you know, maintainand uphold that integrity. Treat
your customers well, setrealistic expectations and
fulfill the obligations that youagreed to. And I think that if
you do that, and you treatpeople internally and

(01:26:41):
externally. Well, that you havean opportunity to create a
really good business which canthrive and can and can be
sustainable, and really isolatethat business from, again, those
market fluctuations, and I thinkthat that's a lot of times, the
key to success is that they'rejust, there's not really many
secrets. You just got to keepdoing and, you know, maintain

(01:27:05):
your word and treat people welland be fair. And I think that
you can create a good life andput a good product out there.
And again, like you said, you'renot going to be that, that multi
millionaire.
I mean, you could be, but morethan likely, you're just going
to create a living for yourselfand support your life and your
family and hopefully not be toooverwhelmed. Yeah. I mean, let

(01:27:27):
me clarify, though, I do want tobe a multi millionaire. Yeah,
no, I should do something elsefor a living.
No, like, like, I said, youknow, I've got other irons in
the fire and stuff. And youknow,
I do own some land, and, youknow, I'm thoughtful about the
long term outlook.
And so I actually, I think beinga general contractor is one of

(01:27:50):
the best paths you can take to,you know, understanding how you
can generate wealth over a longperiod of time, because it just
opens up the door to real estatefor you. And if you can get
yourself into real estate andstart understanding some things
in that world, then you know, Ithink most guys will really be
all right. And I think that's agreat career trajectory for

(01:28:11):
people to aim for that are maybecoming out of vO tech or
entering the trades. Is getyourself into the trades, learn
the trade. Get on your own.Learn about business, learn
financial literacy, and thenlearn the real estate game,
because that's really going toset you up long term. Yeah,
absolutely. Where I had one, onequick thing for you, yeah, I

(01:28:32):
was, I was really thinking thatyour last question might be the
book question, which I've heardyou guys ask other people,
take a moment to make fun ofmyself real quick. I don't think
I've read a full book since Iwas in, maybe in like third
grade.
I think the, I think the lastfull book that I read was

(01:28:54):
Captain Underpants, yeah.
And so I enjoy reading articles.I enjoy researching and finding
things that I'm reallyinterested in finding out about,
and so I know we don't have timefor it, but AI has been, like,
tremendously helpful in researchand getting back a lot of my

(01:29:16):
time, and that's been able tohelp me
with that work life balance andable to launch this young
craftsman foundation here thatyou know has allowed me the
amount of time to do things soyou know that you're using,
yeah, I use chat GPT pretty muchthe majority of the time. Yeah.
I mean, subscribe, get the fullget the full thing. I mean, I

(01:29:39):
probably spend at least an houra day using chat GPT. You
know, when we brought on our CPAto our board, who's like, you
guys filed this thing byyourselves? I'm like, Yeah, I
mean me, my wife, and chat GPTall together. You know, it was
like, that's impressive. Usuallyit's us or an attorney, and it
takes.

(01:30:00):
Like, 15 grand minimum to getthese things set up. And I'm
like, Well, you know, you canget a lot of your time back when
you start to figure out how to,you know, I used it for my
daughter's homework last nightbecause she missed school. And I
was like, Yo, I don't, it washow to, like, there was a bunch,
there was a list of 10 or 11things, and it was about using a
microscope. And it's like, orderthese correctly. And I was

(01:30:23):
looking at it, and I'm like,basically going through as I
would do it in school, where Ididn't pay attention. And I'm
like, Well, this makes sensebecause it's written this way.
And then I got kind of stumped,and I was like, You know what? I
don't know if I should beteaching you this, but I just
took a photo of it and uploadedit to chat, and was like, can
you tell me what order these goin? And it was immediately
prompted, and I was like, Don'ttell mommy, we did this. But I

(01:30:45):
don't feel like looking up moreabout like, I'm gonna to me
that's just senseless homework.Listen, I wish somebody taught
me how to use a ConstructionMaster calculator when I was in
high school. Yeah, absolutely,you know, you know. So I hope
that they're learning how to useAI, rather than just calling it
the bad thing that they're notallowed to use. Yeah, or just

(01:31:07):
taking tests, which I feel likeis not applicable to most of
life. So if people want to findout about the foundation or your
business, what's the best wayfor them to get in touch? Yeah,
so they can follow us onInstagram. Young craftsman is
our Instagram handle, and then,you know, we're really looking

(01:31:27):
to raise funds. Right now, weare strictly volunteer based,
but we would like to bringsomebody on part time, because,
you know, if we had somebodydedicated to this, a little bit
more time, we'd have a littlebit more time to write some
grants and reach out topartners. We feel like it would
be a worthwhile ROI for us tobring somebody on. You know,
they can probably 10x there,man, what they're able to do

(01:31:52):
with their their time
retirement plan.
So, yeah, we are volunteer run,but we do want to get somebody
maybe spending 10 hours a weekon this constantly, so that we
can continue to reach out tosome institutional money and get
that coming in. But the best waythat you can help us out right

(01:32:14):
now is just give us a follow onInstagram. We're going to try
and be a little bit better aboutgetting content out there so
that you guys know what's goingon after we deliver this first
set of packages, we should havequite a bit more to put out
there.
And look, if you're if you'relistening to this and you're
inspired by what we're doing,please do reach out. You can go
to our website, youngcraftsman.com,

(01:32:37):
and if you want to partner,there's a list of ways that you
can partner on the website, orif you just want to reach out,
shoot us an email. It's info atyoung craftsman.com and you
know, we'd be happy to get somemore people involved.
You know, we're still lookingfor a couple tool donations, but
a shameless plug. You know, weneed money, and we're happy to

(01:32:58):
take yours and anybody else'ssame that goes for me as well.
If you're listening,
I'll split it with Tim.
I appreciate you coming on. Iappreciate it's really cool to
hear your story. Learn about thefoundation. Everything that
you're doing, it's it sounds,you know, like you, you have
things headed in the rightdirection.

(01:33:19):
So, yeah, anything that we cando to support will spread the
word, check it out. Everyoneelse should do that, but I
appreciate you coming on, takingthe time out of your day. Thanks
so much. I appreciate it. And,you know, I, you know, credit a
lot of it to the community thatwe have, which is, you know,
part of that is you guys, youknow that online community,
Instagram, you know, podcastsand stuff like that. I've been

(01:33:41):
able to take so much from somany different things and
implement that into my business.And so, you know, big thanks to
you guys, and I appreciate youhaving me on awesome man. Hope
everyone enjoyed the podcastwith Tim.
Really cool conversation. Reallycool guy, young guy, 33 years
old. Young family growing. Thebusiness, growing the

(01:34:01):
foundation. Sounds like he's gota lot of balls in the air, but
super cool to hear what he'sdoing and the impact you know
that he's having on the industrythat he has said this community
has had on him and the industry.So good conversation with him. I
really enjoyed talking to him. Ihope that you guys do if you
need anything, you have anyquestions, you want to reach out

(01:34:26):
to him, shoot us an email. Helloat modern craftsman.co
if you have not sign up for thenewsletter, do that. You can
also do that on the website, wwwdot modern craftsman.co
we have some changes coming tocontent. We're going to be
trying to film some stuff inperson. I'll probably head up to

(01:34:47):
Boston to do that. Switchingthings up a little bit. Here I
saw, or we saw a bunch of you inRhode Island this past weekend
at JLC. It's great to seeeveryone I'm in.
On my midweek we had a verychaotic day. I was sick leading
up to it. I flew in late. Wepacked everything into one day.
So if you said, Hi, we seemshort. Didn't have time. It was

(01:35:11):
for no other reason than justour schedule being jam packed
and literally going from onething to the next to the next,
flying in, flying out thatnight.
So yeah, if you guys said, Hi, Iappreciate it. If it seems short
or that we were in a rush to getsomewhere else, we more than
likely were. It was notintentional. It was not because

(01:35:32):
of you, but hope that everyoneenjoyed their show. And again,
you guys, if you want to get ahold of Tim or his foundation,
young craftsman on Instagram.Young craftsman.com
is the website, and that'scraftsman M A N, singular, not

(01:35:53):
plural. It's
in the check.

(01:36:16):
I trust my mama. You're no matchfor my bad karma, you.

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