May 12, 2025 • 40 mins
Episode 178: Financial Therapy: Healing Your Money Mindset
In this special Mental Health Awareness Month episode of the Money & You podcast, host
Michelle Perkins welcomes back Wendy Wright, a leading financial therapist and CEO of
Financial Therapy Solutions. With her rare combination of expertise in both licensed therapy
and money coaching, Wendy helps individuals and couples navigate the emotional roots of their
financial stress and create empowered, healthy money relationships.
Together, they explore how emotions—especially anxiety and shame—play a powerful role in
how we interact with money. Wendy shares practical tips for approaching financial
conversations with more emotional intelligence and less fear, whether with your partner or with
yourself. She also discusses how to identify your emotional state before trying to “fix” money
problems, and why you can’t make solid financial decisions while dysregulated.
This episode blends psychology with personal finance, offering tools for self-awareness,
calming strategies, and more intentional money conversations. If you would like to see/hear
Wendy’s previous interview, see episode 112.
00:00 – Reintroducing Wendy Wright: financial therapy explained
06:20 – Couples and money: how differences create conflict
12:45 – Why we avoid money and how shame plays a role
20:00 – Tips for productive, emotionally safe money conversations
26:35 – Practicing “emotional literacy” with money stress
33:00 – From overwhelm to calm: journaling and regulation tools
41:20 – How news and social media impact your financial mental health
49:15 – Building sustainable money habits over time
Key Takeaways:
● Financial Therapy = Money + Emotions: Financial struggles are often emotional, not
just logical. Healing begins with emotional literacy.
● You Can’t Budget in a Panic: If you're dysregulated, don’t try to make money
decisions. Calm first, then act.
● Journal or Talk It Out: Whether through writing or speaking aloud, processing your
feelings about money helps untangle fear and create clarity.
● Shame Stops Progress: Decrease judgment and increase curiosity. You can be
financially healthy without knowing everything about money.
● Conversations Need Structure: Use a timer and clear goals when discussing money
with partners. Small, repeatable talks work better than big confrontations.
● Curate Your Media Intake: Negative news amplifies money fear. Be intentional about
what and how much you consume.
Additional Resources:
● Financial Therapy Journal by Wendy Wright
Available now with two free bonus workshops in May!
Here is the link to the journal plus bonus workshops:
https://learn.financialtherapysolutions.com/the-complete-financial-therapy-journal
The free Money Shadow Quiz will be found on my home page,
wendywrightfinancialtherapy.com
● Quiz: Discover your “Money Shadow” – what’s really holding you back.
Take the Quiz
● Blog posts, workshops, and more at Wendy’s site
For more tools and conversations about money mindset, practical money tips,
confidence, and financial empowerment…
Subscribe to the Money & You Podcast:
Apple Podcasts
Please rate and review & share the podcast with your friends and family members who
want to better understand money, and feel more confident and in control of their financial
lives.
Join the Limit Free Life newsletter: https://limitfreelife.com/newsletter
Learn more about Michelle Perkins: https://limitfreelife.com
LinkedIn: Michelle on LinkedIn
Instagram: @livealimitfreelife
YouTube: Limit Free Life on YouTube
In this special Mental Health Awareness Month episode of the Money & You podcast, host
Michelle Perkins welcomes back Wendy Wright, a leading financial therapist and CEO of
Financial Therapy Solutions. With her rare combination of expertise in both licensed therapy
and money coaching, Wendy helps individuals and couples navigate the emotional roots of their
financial stress and create empowered, healthy money relationships.
Together, they explore how emotions—especially anxiety and shame—play a powerful role in
how we interact with money. Wendy shares practical tips for approaching financial
conversations with more emotional intelligence and less fear, whether with your partner or with
yourself. She also discusses how to identify your emotional state before trying to “fix” money
problems, and why you can’t make solid financial decisions while dysregulated.
This episode blends psychology with personal finance, offering tools for self-awareness,
calming strategies, and more intentional money conversations. If you would like to see/hear
Wendy’s previous interview, see episode 112.
00:00 – Reintroducing Wendy Wright: financial therapy explained
06:20 – Couples and money: how differences create conflict
12:45 – Why we avoid money and how shame plays a role
20:00 – Tips for productive, emotionally safe money conversations
26:35 – Practicing “emotional literacy” with money stress
33:00 – From overwhelm to calm: journaling and regulation tools
41:20 – How news and social media impact your financial mental health
49:15 – Building sustainable money habits over time
Key Takeaways:
● Financial Therapy = Money + Emotions: Financial struggles are often emotional, not
just logical. Healing begins with emotional literacy.
● You Can’t Budget in a Panic: If you're dysregulated, don’t try to make money
decisions. Calm first, then act.
● Journal or Talk It Out: Whether through writing or speaking aloud, processing your
feelings about money helps untangle fear and create clarity.
● Shame Stops Progress: Decrease judgment and increase curiosity. You can be
financially healthy without knowing everything about money.
● Conversations Need Structure: Use a timer and clear goals when discussing money
with partners. Small, repeatable talks work better than big confrontations.
● Curate Your Media Intake: Negative news amplifies money fear. Be intentional about
what and how much you consume.
Additional Resources:
● Financial Therapy Journal by Wendy Wright
Available now with two free bonus workshops in May!
Here is the link to the journal plus bonus workshops:
https://learn.financialtherapysolutions.com/the-complete-financial-therapy-journal
The free Money Shadow Quiz will be found on my home page,
wendywrightfinancialtherapy.com
● Quiz: Discover your “Money Shadow” – what’s really holding you back.
Take the Quiz
● Blog posts, workshops, and more at Wendy’s site
For more tools and conversations about money mindset, practical money tips,
confidence, and financial empowerment…
Subscribe to the Money & You Podcast:
Apple Podcasts
Please rate and review & share the podcast with your friends and family members who
want to better understand money, and feel more confident and in control of their financial
lives.
Join the Limit Free Life newsletter: https://limitfreelife.com/newsletter
Learn more about Michelle Perkins: https://limitfreelife.com
LinkedIn: Michelle on LinkedIn
Instagram: @livealimitfreelife
YouTube: Limit Free Life on YouTube
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Understanding where where you are emotionally, almost like emotional literacy,
Like we love feelings wheels, which are you know, you
can google a feeling wheel and kind of look at
what am I feeling right now? When money comes up,
we can begin to look at that. And for instance,
(00:21):
if you notice, you know what, I go from not
anxious at all to on a scale of one to ten,
I am at an eleven point five of anxiety as
soon as someone says money. Then, But the next step
would not be to learn more about money, it would
be to practice a grounding skill.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hey there, and welcome to Money and You. I'm Michelle Perkins,
your host. My search for more fulfilling work led me
to career in business coaching, where I stumbled upon a
game changing discovery. Money issues often start with our mindset
and habits.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
You see, our.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Relationship with money is the key to overcoming those frustrating
fund antial obstacles. As an entrepreneur, coach and problem solver,
I'm passionate about helping you create a great relationship with money,
because turns out that's the foundation for a limit free life.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Each week on Money and You, I speak.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
With amazing guests about all things, money, mindset, practical tips,
and everything in between.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
We're here to give you new.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Insights, education and empowerment, so money can be one of
your favorite relationships. So join us for some lively conversations
and let's transform your financial life together. Hello, Hello, and
welcome to today's episode of The.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Money and You Show. I am super.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Excited, as I often am when I do this show,
but I have a repeat guest, and repeat guests to
get special, extra special love because I for one thing,
they're so wonderful that I love having them back and
they want to come back, so that means they like
the show and that makes me happy. So I have
(01:59):
am thrilled, especially this month, the month of May, which
is Mental Health Awareness Month, and so I'm thrilled to
bring a expert in both areas, so finance and mental health.
And I'm going to introduce her right now. She has
been on before and her name is Wendy Wright. And
(02:24):
Wendy Wright is a leading financial therapist and CEO of
Financial Therapy Solutions, LLC. With a background as a licensed therapist,
money coach and business owner. Wendy excels in meeting psychological
insights with financial expertise. Her pioneering work in the field
of financial therapy has transformed lives by addressing the emotional
(02:46):
aspects of financial decision making. Today, Wendy will share her
insights on how to achieve a harmonious relationship with money
and navigate the complexities of financial well being. Wendy, Welcome.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
It's fantastic. Applause.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I know, isn't that great?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
You deserve it, So, Wendy, thank you for coming back
on the show.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
It's in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I'll put which episode you were on before, because you
were brilliant in that episode, and this way people can
listen to both. But you brought it to my attention
that this is an important month for mental health awareness
and so a perfect time to bring you back. And
we've also got some other things going on that are
causing a great deal of stress and anxiety right now,
(03:36):
and so another great reason to have you on. And
so I'm super excited to dive in with you today
and talk about really financial well being, how to alleviate
some of the financial distress so that your money relationship
can be everything you wanted to be. So welcome, and
(03:58):
you know, what are you what are some of your
just kind of overview ideas about you know, what's happening today,
where people's mental health is today, and then we'll dive
into how to how to help.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, first, thanks for having me back, Michelle. I love
chatting with you, and I love we share this mission
of helping people love their relationship with money instead of
fear it. As we know, current research really speaks to
high levels of anxiety, high levels of fear, and not
sure how to manage things, how, how it's going to
(04:37):
turn out, what it's going to be, like, how day
to day news reels will impact our actual like visit
to the grocery store, like when that feels uncertain, it
can bring up a lot of distress. And that is
the blending of money and emotions is the definition of
(04:57):
financial therapy. I'm a therapist. I'm a licensed mental health,
marriage and family therapist and also a trained money coach,
So I blend the two with a very unique skill
set to be able to both help people manage their
emotions but also we talk about some management of actual
money management tips and techniques.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Right, And it's so great that you do that. There
just aren't enough therapists like you who really understand you
know the practical aspects of money, and also you know
how to provide therapeutic help for people. So you're one
of the few people I've met who really do this
work in the way that you do. So I love that,
(05:40):
and I actually forgot the marriage and family therapy aspect
of this because of course money is such a source
of conflict with couples, and so I think that's, yeah,
I'm excited about this to talk about as well. So yeah,
they're you know, finances, and we did talk about this
(06:03):
on our first show together. But there is so much
stress around finances for people, and then for each individual,
that stress comes from different places, it manifests in different ways,
and so then you bring a couple together and there
can be a lot of conflict. So I don't want
to spend the whole time on couples, but since we're there,
(06:26):
you know, can you can you provide some thoughts and
ideas around this topic.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yes, money and couples partnerships, which even includes business partners
If you know, if a couple of people are putting
together a business, what happens often is we come into
a partnership with a money story, and money expectations, and
often they are unspoken. So when you come in that way,
(06:56):
then we tend to think, we really come a to
to think everybody else thinks the way we do. I
know I think that way. So that's one of the
most challenging things of partnerships and relationships is oh, you
thought about that differently. And so sometimes financial therapy for
couples and partners can begin first just by naming meaning
(07:21):
to the words that are used. So if someone, for instance,
says I feel anxious about money, I'm going to encourage
them to put more words to that, because the other
partner may say I feel anxious about money, but they
may mean something totally different. So it's really helpful to
put more words to it, to begin to expand that communication,
because that is a lot of what goes on when
(07:44):
it comes to money work for couples and partners. Communication
and increasing the effectiveness of communication and the sort of
the sustainability of communication can be really helpful for this.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yes, I couldn't agree more And I love that you
said the sustainability of communication, because one thing to have,
you know, a talk about this, but it's another thing
to keep those talks going. And I think Without that,
things fall apart again quickly and people forget.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So all the time. Yeah, yeah, because it's scary to
talk about so you want the tendency to start trying
to This is also what makes it not work very
well too. It's you want to like talk it about
everything today and let's just get it all out there
kind of feeling, and that doesn't work, and then you
(08:38):
lead feeling very unsatisfied, and then you don't want to
revisit again for probably like a decade. Yes, and then
you think, I don't know if we ever talk about money,
And that's how we do it with ourselves too, Like
we don't even talk to ourselves about money very much,
or maybe we don't talk very nicely to ourselves about it,
or we don't talk about it at all, or we
just tell ourselves what we're doing wrong. And so until
(08:59):
we build a path. Some of the action steps that
I give people are ways to build a path toward
a more sustainable conversation pattern.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And I do remember in the first show you talking
a lot about your self talk, which I'm just going
to refer people to that show because there was some
great information there and When I imagine a conversation with a
couple around money, I imagine a lot of accusations, well,
you know, you spend too much and you don't look
at this, and you don't do that, and then the
(09:31):
other person coming and saying, but you don't do this
and that, and I feel like there's a lot of
just it just devolves very quickly into complaining about what
the person is not doing. And the way you explained
how different we are with money, what bothers one person
is not necessarily going to be seen as something you know,
(09:51):
inappropriate or so it's very complex, but how can people
come at it without sort of that it escalates, I think,
very quickly into.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Being upset about what somebody is doing.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It really can escalate, and that is pretty important to
notice and to notice it without without judging it. So
one of my so my first principle of financial therapy
is approaching it with compassionate curiosity and zero judgment. So
when we have an escalation, we have moved away from
(10:25):
compassion and curiosity, And often we're escalating maybe out of defensiveness,
because we're scared that we're maybe about to get caught
or something or have to look at something that we
don't know how to look at yet, because if you
if you don't know what to do with an uncomfortable
money situation money number, then you kind of maybe want
(10:48):
to avoid it because you don't know what to do
with it. Yeah, So when I'm guiding people couples to
talking about money, first, the first thing I try to
have them do is have a one like a ten
to twenty minute with a timer on. I find it
really really helpful to turn on a time or conversation
(11:09):
to talk about talking about money, so that each of
them can say, yeah, I want to talk about money,
but it scares me, or yeah, I want to talk
about money, but it's more fun to avoid it, or
I want to talk about money, but I don't know
how it's going to go. How can we create the scenario.
Then we take them into now we're going to talk
about it, maybe this is a month later or a
few weeks later, we're going to talk about it, And
(11:30):
then I encourage them to start out with one goal each. Again,
a time sensitive conversation also keeps it from turning into
sort of like a spiral or you know, that black hole,
or devolving into conflict kind of things. So if you
both have one thing you want to talk about, that
(11:50):
also reminds you that another really key important thing about
money is to remember that money work is never done,
so money talking is never done. So this next conversation
that you're going to have about money is actually just
one of probably what you know, four hundred and fifty
two thousand that you want to have over the course
(12:11):
of a relationships lifespan.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Right, Yeah, yeah, so interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And I feel like there's so much fear around it,
and that fear is triggering and so I think that
makes the conversation more difficult.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
But what do you see in your work?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Where what is this fear? Like, where's it coming from?
Are you just afraid you're going to be broke? I mean,
what is happening in people's minds that is affecting them
so that these conversations are so difficult?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, Oh, I'm glad you asked it that way. Michelle
is looking at what is the sphere? Really like, what
is underneath this? Because money stuff is generally not about money,
and that's really hard for some people to wrap their
brain around. But once you begin to so one of
the one of the tip tips that I have is
to take the money word out of this sentence. So
(13:04):
now if we're like, oh, I'm really anxious about money,
then we're able to say I'm really anxious about and honestly, Michelle,
sometimes this can take people ten fifteen minutes to come
up with another word because they're just like, I'm anxious
about money. I'm anxious about money. This is it. I'm like, okay, okay,
and then maybe Okay, I'm anxious about running out of money.
(13:25):
I'm anxious about not having a job next year. I'm
anxious about not knowing how to talk to my kids
about money. I'm anxious about not knowing how you know,
how to talk about money without crying. That's very that
is very common actually for some of my clients, where
they think I can't talk about it without crying, therefore
I don't want to talk about it, right. So when
(13:47):
we take the money word out, then we're able to say, Okay,
these are the things I'm scared of, and that increases
understanding and if it's a partnership, that can increase affection
and connection, which those are goals of partnerships.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
I love the idea of taking the word out it's
language is so interesting. I mean the way people communicate.
If you have just a little tip.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Like that, it can change the entire conversation. So it
really does.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Is it done?
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:19):
It is wild? Well I love that.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And you know, I suppose that goes for ourselves just
talking to ourselves as well, because we get very scared
and then we have this conversation about you know, what
if I lose my job and then what if this happens?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
And what if that happens?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
And you know that also I mean to I mean
a process to get underneath all of this is really important.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Now.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I don't know if you are in fear or in anxiety.
Can you go there on your own? Or do you
do you need to be guided?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Oh that's a good the answer, yes and no, Okay,
that's good. Yeah, can you go there on your own?
Can you be guided? Now? I also like to write,
so I have written workbooks and given presentations and things
like that on this and so I have what I
have I now call the Financial Therapy Journal. And partly
(15:18):
because I love to journal, I have a blog post
Why I Journal, and it's kind of talks you, takes
you through why it helps me doesn't help everybody, but
I also say if it doesn't help you, I give
some tips, such as, some people need to talk out loud.
I like to write, but if you like to talk
out loud, take a walk. Talk out loud. The neighbors
will just think you're on your phone.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
That's it, right, true.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
But in the journal. One of the reasons that it
can be helpful and that you can do it on
your own is because one of the foundational exercises that
I have I call it breathe intend Move. So we
start with breath and just three or four breaths, just pausing,
because pausing allows you to regulate your nervous system before
(16:01):
you approach the money. Then we talk about intention setting,
and this is really important because a lot of times
we set intentions. No, we set goals that are actually intentions.
So we want to have an intention perhaps maybe I
want to make X number of dollars, or I want
to get out of debt, I want to have I
(16:24):
want my partner and I to understand each other better
and not fight about money. Those are too big to
be a goal, okay, so they're broad. Then the move
part is where you identify the action step right now
the journal is on sale, and I have two bonus
workshops in the month of May since it is Mental
health Awareness month. So if your listeners are catching this today,
(16:46):
there's still time to sign up for that where I
walk you through this even more deeply this exercise, but
essentially we're building in a pause and then we're building
in your hopes and dreams and then some action steps
that you can take in a short time period. When
you take an action step and you see yourself do this,
(17:07):
and you know there's lots of research on goal setting
and taking the steps and building momentum, that's part of.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
What it does.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
It cuts into the sort of that financial anxiety noise
or that uncertainty of what I can do, and it
brings you down to Okay, I can do this. Then
you build on that, and to use a money metaphor,
it's like putting deposits in the bank account instead of withdrawals.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Oh I love that.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I love all of this because I'm a huge journaler too,
and I've had a journal in my mind that I've
wanted to create forever. So every time somebody says I
have a.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Journal, I'm like, get on that journal. So thank you.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Maybe it'll push me. But I love that you have this.
I think journaling is just magical. I also like what
you said about speaking out loud. That's not really something
that I do that often, but there have been a
few times when I've been in the car and i
put my little you know, microphone on and maybe I'll
(18:06):
go into it to create a blog, for example, I'll
just start talking. It's kind of therapeutic talking to yourself.
I don't do it regularly, but as you brought that up,
it is also a good way. But and then sometimes
you can transcribe that and then you can reread it,
so it's not a bad way to go. But and
(18:28):
thank you for offering the journal and the workshops, because
that that sounds like a wonderful bonus with that. So
I'll put all of that in the show notes so
people can take advantage of that wonderful offer. And you know,
you bring up a great point, which is this takes
some doing, whether you're you know, I mean there are
(18:49):
this is a practice. And what you know, this idea
that your relationship with money is a forever thing, so
it's you will always be having conversations with others with
yourself and learning. As you were talking about the couples,
I was imagining what happens if both of the people
are pretty financially literate versus people who maybe one is
(19:13):
and one isn't, or both aren't. I think this idea,
and I've thought this for a long time, but I
am getting kind of more.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Adamant about it. But we have to spend our lives
learning about money, whether it's interesting to you or not.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I mean, we're using it every day, and so it's
kind of ridiculous to not understand it better. And I
just think that's part of what we need. It's sort
of like nutrition. You know, you really should learn, you
know what those labels mean when you read them. So, yeah,
what is your what are your thoughts about this idea
of financial literacy helping in this communication?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, well, you know it's to me. I love looking too,
because April is technically financial literacy month, and then May
is mental health awareness. And I put those two together
in several blog posts and emails that I've put out
because I think they come together very nicely. And I think,
(20:14):
you know, Michelle, think part of what you're really speaking
to if it's okay to use the word shame here
because I think what we're bumping into is the role
shame can play in our ability to communicate with ourselves
or communicate with others, because shame is constantly it's a bully,
it's constantly saying you don't know what you're talking about,
(20:36):
you're stupid, you're bad with money, all of these kind
of things. And if that's true, if you know, if
you are bad with money, which I don't believe is
a thing, so then you can't move forward, you can't
really have a conversation. So when we decrease the shame
and we create a more neutral environment that's that compassionate
(20:57):
curiosity and zero judgment, then we can begin to approach it.
And so, for instance, for a couple, if one if
one appears to have more maybe more financial data point
information than the other, then we want to build a
(21:18):
path to have communication that speaks to both of their brains.
Because sometimes we don't speak spreadsheet quote unquote, But that
doesn't mean we're bad with money. But I do bring
into a lot of people who assume that if they
don't if they're not comfortable spreadsheets, they can't do money,
which is not true. So when we begin to pause
(21:39):
and look at Okay, how does your brain look at
this data? How does your brain interpret? Because for instance,
one way a lot of my clients have found helpful
is to put the money numbers in a sentence, and
I literally have them write this sentence, which is very
different than fill in the points on the spreadshere. So
(22:00):
they write the sentence out. Maybe they're trying to build
a business plan and they're like, I want to have
this much income, and they put the number in the
sentence and all of a sudden, your brain can absorb
it differently. Does that make sense to you? Could you
see that happening? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, very interesting again, language languaging, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It's great, and recognizing your brain, like how does your
brain work? What is the way your brain begins to
take in data. So for a couple, if they can
come together and first learn about how each other's brain
process is information, then they're going to have more satisfying
money communication, don't you think?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
And the other thing that's coming to mind as you're
speaking is, you know, the financial world is very broad.
I mean there are million aspects to it, so you know,
and I think people are interested in certain things more
than others. And I think as a couple, you know,
it's okay for you to really understand budgeting or you know, savings,
(23:04):
and for somebody else to become more of an expert
in something else, in real estate or whatever they might
be interested in. And so this whole idea of being
smart with money, none of us are, you know, are
so well versed in every aspect of it.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
I mean that is not typical, but so and I
feel like people have a weird.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Understanding of that, like like they feel like they have
to be an expert in all these different areas to
be good with money, whereas I think you just have
to be continually looking at it, gaining understanding, and maybe
you find those areas that you want to learn about.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I'm kind of leaning into the mental.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Health awareness idea and trying to figure out how you
can feel more mentally healthy around money without knowing everything
there is to know.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Oh yeah, I mean that's a T shirt. You can
be more mentally healthy around money without knowing everything there
is to know. Yes, that's a T shirt. We'll press
those because absolutely nobody knows everything about money. It is
not a destination, right, it's a process. And having that
(24:22):
ability to have this really warm and welcoming environment to
learning is so cool. So I love how you said
that as we begin to look at that within our
mental health. Yeah, so some of the key emotional states
people may find themselves in with money. Can feel either
(24:44):
maybe highly anxious or highly depressed, and anxiety leads to
certain behaviors, depression leads to other behaviors. Both can feel hopeless,
both can feel unprepared, both can feel behind, and they
just sort of physically the body reacts in a different
way if that's an anxiety or a depression. For instance,
(25:05):
understanding where where you are emotionally almost like emotional literacy,
Like we love feelings wheels, which are you know, you
can google a feeling wheel and kind of look at
what am I feeling right now? When money comes up,
we can begin to look at that. And for instance,
(25:27):
if you notice, you know what, I go from not
anxious at all to on a scale of one to ten,
I am at an eleven point five of anxiety. As
soon as someone says money, then the next step would
not be to learn more about money. It would be
to practice a grounding skill. It would be to come
into something to soothe your brain, and that may mean,
(25:49):
you know, you put off the money conversation for thirty
minutes while you take a walk or something like that,
because you want to calm your brain first before you
engage in a money conversation, and so being aware of
what is your emotional state and how you can bring grounding, calming, soothing.
(26:11):
You'll often hear people talk about nervous system regulation, those
kind of words to your system before engaging about money,
because actually money details and data is the opposite of
what's going to be helpful.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
That's fascinating to me, especially because earlier this year I
went to like a three day doctor Joe to Spendza
workshop and I learned a lot about I mean mostly
he was talking to you about brain coherence and you know,
dysregulation and regulation and this concept that you can't learn
(26:48):
and you can't make the best decisions if you know,
you're basically dysregulated for lack of a more professional term,
And I found that really fascinating because, like you said
that really and with money, something happens. We get triggered,
We get you know, we see a bill that's too high,
or we you know, get some talking to at work
(27:11):
and we start worrying about our job security. These things
put us into kind of a panic mode and then
we start thinking of, you know, I better decide something
or I better you know, find a solution to this,
and it's not the time. And I think that's a
huge important thing. I've started using that with my daughter.
She calls me and she's panning, and I'm like, Okay,
first thing we're gonna do. Yeah, we're gonna get rid
(27:33):
of the panic, and then we'll talk.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. One of the ways this is an oversimplification,
but this explanations helped some people to look at your
brain can only do so many things at once. So
if your brain is highly anxious or highly depressed, or
like some sort of emotional state, because there are lots
of other emotional states, I'm just kind of using those
as common examples. It can't check the balance and figure
(27:59):
out how to pay thing, or it can't read. Sometimes
I'll spend sessions helping someone read their paystub because when
they're anxious about money, you know, they can't read the
past up. It blurs like it just gets foggy in
their brain. And so we'll that's kind of one of
the cool things about having this sort of work where
(28:19):
someone can have me sit down there and sit down
with them and go over it. So, but we can't
do that until we're calmer. The same thing with couples
when they're fighting, effective communications done, it's over, So don't
try to make a decision then until you're calm, until
it feels safe enough to talk about things. Same principle.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, that's really interesting. That's probably why sometimes these money
conversations like go all the way to we should break up,
like you know, I mean right, because you haven't pulled
up yes, or.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Kind of bringing up something they did twenty eight years ago,
and like I still remember when you didn't you know right?
I know, yeah, I mean because we've lost the we've
lost the point in the conversation.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
That's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
And there was something else that you said that made
me really think, because there have been times when I've felt,
you know, that level of stress where I've read something.
It wasn't a paste ub, but maybe I got a
letter from the irs or something, and I read it
and I'm in a panic and I think it says something,
and then I go back and reread it and it's
like I read it wrong. I mean, my brain didn't
(29:24):
even register what it was saying and it wasn't actually
as bad as I thought it was, which is very
interesting that that's what or brain into.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Yes, thanks for sharing that example too, Michelle, because I've
had a lot of your listeners have had that same
thing happen and just thought there was something wrong with them.
But now this happens, it happens to me too, like
it just happens.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have to be very aware of
the state of our brain, which is big takeaway from
me this year.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah, this is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
So I want to talk about something that you brought
up before we got on the air, because about affecting
our mental health.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
I mean, the news affects it.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I mean, what are you telling people right now where
there's so much going on that could negatively affect you?
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I mean, personally, I'm always telling people, you know, don't
watch the news, don't do those, don't do that. I'm
not sure people are listening, but that's kind of that's
my go to, is to turn off some of the noise.
But how about you know, what are some things that
people can do to kind of protect their mental health
right now?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, because I'm getting asked that a lot, like what
to do with with the news it's creating anxiety.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
And social media, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Social media I and I've even been interviewed from other
media outlets recently about this too, So I think it's
very much on the brain. There is the general consensus
wisdom watch less, consume less. What happens often though, is
(30:59):
if you are anxious, you will watch more, you know,
like noticing what's happening in your emotional state. Then so
I shifted to telling people are to recommending people start
thinking about curating their news sources. In other words, instead
(31:21):
of because we often do this with money, we're going
to log into our money account and find out how
bad we've done. Like, that's not a way. We don't
want to do that. We want to create a new
dialogue of I want to look in this money and
see what I want to know. Same thing with media,
of saying what do I want to know and how
(31:41):
much time do I want to spend on this? So
starting with that in mind, then you might want to know,
you know a couple of numbers, and I want to
spend twenty minutes on it or less, you know, possibly
the other thing too, that I think is really powerful
is listening to You're listening to a lot of all
(32:02):
or nothing language if you're listening to media, because that
is what piques our interest. If it sounds dramatic or
catastrophe or like a catastrophe, that's going to piuk our interest.
This is also very similar to how we language ourselves
around money. We often will think either I'm good or bad.
I'm bad with money, they're good with money. I'll never
(32:25):
figure this out. Everyone else has it figured out. Like
there's a lot of this all or nothing sort of
one thing or the other in our internal dialogue with money.
So when that's already happening in our heads and then
it's happening from a news source, it's like this unintentional
validation of the catastrophe that you've been fearing. So it's
(32:45):
really helpful to know your own self, know your own thoughts,
and recognize how that's going so that you can understand
how this is going to be, how you're going to
be impacted by someone else using very sort of like
all or nothing, which, for lack of a better word.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Yes, yeah, that is.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
I'm sorry. We'll cut this, Wendy, could you just turn
your camera on and off. For some reason, your camera
is frozen. So I just wanted to make sure, yes,
there you.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Go, don't need to repeat anything.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Just cut that piece out.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Can I still talk? What about the frozen part?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (33:26):
Yeah, we'll take care of it.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Yeah, you will, okay magically, so.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Smart Okay, and we're still recording, and just start.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
From me okay. So yeah, Wendy, that's great advice. I
I think it's a struggle. It's a struggle for me.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I mean I have a lot of little mechanisms in place,
and every now and then I'll just fall into a
rabbit hole. And every time I am just like, really,
I mean, I know better than this because my whole
you know, you feel it. I mean it's it's a
visceral sort of feeling.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
You shouldn't have gone.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
There, right right, Yeah, there is so much to talk about.
We are unfortunately getting to the end of our conversation.
I'd love for you to just sort of provide your
insights around, you know, this whole topic of mental health
and money and in whatever way you choose.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
You know, if.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
There's if there's some tips or so you've already given
a great number of tips, But if there's some sort
of wrap up ideas that you want to convey, I'd
love to hear that.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, well, I think first I will say I appreciate
your insight into having this conversation because you are really
you know, you're leading so many conversations about money, and
that with the insight that there's a relationship with money.
So I think that's really important for people to recognize
money is not just a set of a set of
(34:55):
data points or a set of definitions that we don't understand,
like what does this mean, but that it is something
that we have a relationship with. When we have a
relationship with that, that in and of itself can speak
to the fact that it can evolve and change over
time and grow and all of those kind of you know,
movement works that we're talking about versus you're bad with
(35:17):
money period, you know kind of things. So recognizing, first
of all, with insight that there's a lot of emotion
connected with our money decision making, and that it's a
relationship and it grows and changes over time, all of
those things can begin to help soothe your frayed nerves,
so to speak. If money creates anxiety and fear and
(35:41):
you get sort of frozen around it all of those things,
because really we want to know that there's a way out,
that this can get better, and I see it get
better all the time. So I encourage people to absolutely,
like re listen to our discussion today, write down some
of the tips and tricks that we talked about. Check
out the a quiz on my website that helps you
(36:01):
identify what we call your money shadow, which is essentially
like just finding some new words for what might be
getting in the way of having the best money life
you want to have the having relaxed money, relaxed relationship
with money. And then some of the journal prompts are
there as well, so it's it can be really powerful
to get those and that's all that wendywritefinancial therapy dot com.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
That's great, Thank you, Wendy. And you know another thing
that just so you keep jogging my mind around things.
But money is not just like a straight line kind
of trajectory. I mean, things happen in life that you
know you're you're earning and you're saving and you're doing
things and then suddenly you know whether it's whatever I mean,
(36:46):
things happen in your life. You have kids, you get divorced,
you things happen, and so you know, from a mental
health perspective, you have to be okay with the journey
and the expectations. And so, I don't know, is there
something that you tell people so they can ride these
waves and like deal with it?
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah? Well I think you just made another T shirt, Michelle.
You have to be okay with the journey.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
I'm going to go into that business I make.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I know we got two already for our line.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Absolutely. I think the sort of metaphors that imply movement,
such as journey, growth, story, Often one of my favorite
prompts is what story do you want your money to tell?
So that the fact that there's there, we go, we
got another T shirt.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
So having all of those sort of in your mind
is really powerful, and that in and of itself is
really new for a lot of people. So once you
just begin to open that up, a lot of things
flow from that.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Yeah, thank you. That's a great answer. Well, Wendy, second time.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
I loved it. I'd love for you to come back
for more.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
So you're a great guest and great in sites, and
what you're talking about is probably the most important thing.
I mean, if money is damaging you know, your mental health,
it's super important to take control of that. And you know,
and it's affecting everybody's mental health. I think that's another
Just like we need to understand we have a relationship
(38:17):
with money, we have to understand that it is constantly
affecting our emotions or moods or everything, and so it's
something not to be afraid of, but to work on.
And I love that you're helping people do that, and
so thank you, and thank you for all the interesting
(38:37):
information you brought to the table, and thank you for
the offer so people can continue to you know, get
more of this, so I'll be sure and put it
all in the show notes. And yeah, just love having
you on this program. I think, you know, what you're
doing is really helping people to understand this relationship with
money and how to navigate it, so as well as
(38:58):
practical things. I mean, that comes first, but then the
fact that you can also talk to them about their
numbers is super great. So thank you, and I will
you know, I'll be following you and I'd love to
see your journal, which I'll put again in the show notes.
And so yeah, thank you for all you do and
(39:21):
for coming on the show.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
I love it. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah, this is great, and audience, thank you. We love
it when you listen to The Money and You Show.
So please find me at limit FreeLife dot com, reach
out to me if you have questions or ideas or
anything at Michelle at limitfreelife dot com. You can find
Wendy and I'll put all of her information in the
show notes and reach out to her as well. Check
(39:47):
out her upcoming journal workshops and if you would like
the Layoff workshop, she has offered that very generously, so
that's great. And yeah, if you enjoyed the show, if
you know anybody who could benefit from the show, please
share it.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
That's one of.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
The things that really helps us. If you share the
show and also rate and review it. If you enjoyed it,
then that would be wonderful. And well, we'll see you
next week on the Money and You Show. Thank you
ubn Go for bringing the show out into the world.
And I love doing the show, so thank you for watching.
Understanding where where you are emotionally, almost like emotional literacy,
Like we love feelings wheels, which are you know, you
can google a feeling wheel and kind of look at
what am I feeling right now? When money comes up,
we can begin to look at that. And for instance,
(00:21):
if you notice, you know what, I go from not
anxious at all to on a scale of one to ten,
I am at an eleven point five of anxiety as
soon as someone says money. Then, But the next step
would not be to learn more about money, it would
be to practice a grounding skill.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hey there, and welcome to Money and You. I'm Michelle Perkins,
your host. My search for more fulfilling work led me
to career in business coaching, where I stumbled upon a
game changing discovery. Money issues often start with our mindset
and habits.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
You see, our.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Relationship with money is the key to overcoming those frustrating
fund antial obstacles. As an entrepreneur, coach and problem solver,
I'm passionate about helping you create a great relationship with money,
because turns out that's the foundation for a limit free life.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Each week on Money and You, I speak.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
With amazing guests about all things, money, mindset, practical tips,
and everything in between.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
We're here to give you new.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Insights, education and empowerment, so money can be one of
your favorite relationships. So join us for some lively conversations
and let's transform your financial life together. Hello, Hello, and
welcome to today's episode of The.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Money and You Show. I am super.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Excited, as I often am when I do this show,
but I have a repeat guest, and repeat guests to
get special, extra special love because I for one thing,
they're so wonderful that I love having them back and
they want to come back, so that means they like
the show and that makes me happy. So I have
(01:59):
am thrilled, especially this month, the month of May, which
is Mental Health Awareness Month, and so I'm thrilled to
bring a expert in both areas, so finance and mental health.
And I'm going to introduce her right now. She has
been on before and her name is Wendy Wright. And
(02:24):
Wendy Wright is a leading financial therapist and CEO of
Financial Therapy Solutions, LLC. With a background as a licensed therapist,
money coach and business owner. Wendy excels in meeting psychological
insights with financial expertise. Her pioneering work in the field
of financial therapy has transformed lives by addressing the emotional
(02:46):
aspects of financial decision making. Today, Wendy will share her
insights on how to achieve a harmonious relationship with money
and navigate the complexities of financial well being. Wendy, Welcome.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
It's fantastic. Applause.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I know, isn't that great?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
You deserve it, So, Wendy, thank you for coming back
on the show.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
It's in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I'll put which episode you were on before, because you
were brilliant in that episode, and this way people can
listen to both. But you brought it to my attention
that this is an important month for mental health awareness
and so a perfect time to bring you back. And
we've also got some other things going on that are
causing a great deal of stress and anxiety right now,
(03:36):
and so another great reason to have you on. And
so I'm super excited to dive in with you today
and talk about really financial well being, how to alleviate
some of the financial distress so that your money relationship
can be everything you wanted to be. So welcome, and
(03:58):
you know, what are you what are some of your
just kind of overview ideas about you know, what's happening today,
where people's mental health is today, and then we'll dive
into how to how to help.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, first, thanks for having me back, Michelle. I love
chatting with you, and I love we share this mission
of helping people love their relationship with money instead of
fear it. As we know, current research really speaks to
high levels of anxiety, high levels of fear, and not
sure how to manage things, how, how it's going to
(04:37):
turn out, what it's going to be, like, how day
to day news reels will impact our actual like visit
to the grocery store, like when that feels uncertain, it
can bring up a lot of distress. And that is
the blending of money and emotions is the definition of
(04:57):
financial therapy. I'm a therapist. I'm a licensed mental health,
marriage and family therapist and also a trained money coach,
So I blend the two with a very unique skill
set to be able to both help people manage their
emotions but also we talk about some management of actual
money management tips and techniques.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Right, And it's so great that you do that. There
just aren't enough therapists like you who really understand you
know the practical aspects of money, and also you know
how to provide therapeutic help for people. So you're one
of the few people I've met who really do this
work in the way that you do. So I love that,
(05:40):
and I actually forgot the marriage and family therapy aspect
of this because of course money is such a source
of conflict with couples, and so I think that's, yeah,
I'm excited about this to talk about as well. So yeah,
they're you know, finances, and we did talk about this
(06:03):
on our first show together. But there is so much
stress around finances for people, and then for each individual,
that stress comes from different places, it manifests in different ways,
and so then you bring a couple together and there
can be a lot of conflict. So I don't want
to spend the whole time on couples, but since we're there,
(06:26):
you know, can you can you provide some thoughts and
ideas around this topic.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yes, money and couples partnerships, which even includes business partners
If you know, if a couple of people are putting
together a business, what happens often is we come into
a partnership with a money story, and money expectations, and
often they are unspoken. So when you come in that way,
(06:56):
then we tend to think, we really come a to
to think everybody else thinks the way we do. I
know I think that way. So that's one of the
most challenging things of partnerships and relationships is oh, you
thought about that differently. And so sometimes financial therapy for
couples and partners can begin first just by naming meaning
(07:21):
to the words that are used. So if someone, for instance,
says I feel anxious about money, I'm going to encourage
them to put more words to that, because the other
partner may say I feel anxious about money, but they
may mean something totally different. So it's really helpful to
put more words to it, to begin to expand that communication,
because that is a lot of what goes on when
(07:44):
it comes to money work for couples and partners. Communication
and increasing the effectiveness of communication and the sort of
the sustainability of communication can be really helpful for this.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yes, I couldn't agree more And I love that you
said the sustainability of communication, because one thing to have,
you know, a talk about this, but it's another thing
to keep those talks going. And I think Without that,
things fall apart again quickly and people forget.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So all the time. Yeah, yeah, because it's scary to
talk about so you want the tendency to start trying
to This is also what makes it not work very
well too. It's you want to like talk it about
everything today and let's just get it all out there
kind of feeling, and that doesn't work, and then you
(08:38):
lead feeling very unsatisfied, and then you don't want to
revisit again for probably like a decade. Yes, and then
you think, I don't know if we ever talk about money,
And that's how we do it with ourselves too, Like
we don't even talk to ourselves about money very much,
or maybe we don't talk very nicely to ourselves about it,
or we don't talk about it at all, or we
just tell ourselves what we're doing wrong. And so until
(08:59):
we build a path. Some of the action steps that
I give people are ways to build a path toward
a more sustainable conversation pattern.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And I do remember in the first show you talking
a lot about your self talk, which I'm just going
to refer people to that show because there was some
great information there and When I imagine a conversation with a
couple around money, I imagine a lot of accusations, well,
you know, you spend too much and you don't look
at this, and you don't do that, and then the
(09:31):
other person coming and saying, but you don't do this
and that, and I feel like there's a lot of
just it just devolves very quickly into complaining about what
the person is not doing. And the way you explained
how different we are with money, what bothers one person
is not necessarily going to be seen as something you know,
(09:51):
inappropriate or so it's very complex, but how can people
come at it without sort of that it escalates, I think,
very quickly into.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Being upset about what somebody is doing.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It really can escalate, and that is pretty important to
notice and to notice it without without judging it. So
one of my so my first principle of financial therapy
is approaching it with compassionate curiosity and zero judgment. So
when we have an escalation, we have moved away from
(10:25):
compassion and curiosity, And often we're escalating maybe out of defensiveness,
because we're scared that we're maybe about to get caught
or something or have to look at something that we
don't know how to look at yet, because if you
if you don't know what to do with an uncomfortable
money situation money number, then you kind of maybe want
(10:48):
to avoid it because you don't know what to do
with it. Yeah, So when I'm guiding people couples to
talking about money, first, the first thing I try to
have them do is have a one like a ten
to twenty minute with a timer on. I find it
really really helpful to turn on a time or conversation
(11:09):
to talk about talking about money, so that each of
them can say, yeah, I want to talk about money,
but it scares me, or yeah, I want to talk
about money, but it's more fun to avoid it, or
I want to talk about money, but I don't know
how it's going to go. How can we create the scenario.
Then we take them into now we're going to talk
about it, maybe this is a month later or a
few weeks later, we're going to talk about it, And
(11:30):
then I encourage them to start out with one goal each. Again,
a time sensitive conversation also keeps it from turning into
sort of like a spiral or you know, that black hole,
or devolving into conflict kind of things. So if you
both have one thing you want to talk about, that
(11:50):
also reminds you that another really key important thing about
money is to remember that money work is never done,
so money talking is never done. So this next conversation
that you're going to have about money is actually just
one of probably what you know, four hundred and fifty
two thousand that you want to have over the course
(12:11):
of a relationships lifespan.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Right, Yeah, yeah, so interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And I feel like there's so much fear around it,
and that fear is triggering and so I think that
makes the conversation more difficult.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
But what do you see in your work?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Where what is this fear? Like, where's it coming from?
Are you just afraid you're going to be broke? I mean,
what is happening in people's minds that is affecting them
so that these conversations are so difficult?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, Oh, I'm glad you asked it that way. Michelle
is looking at what is the sphere? Really like, what
is underneath this? Because money stuff is generally not about money,
and that's really hard for some people to wrap their
brain around. But once you begin to so one of
the one of the tip tips that I have is
to take the money word out of this sentence. So
(13:04):
now if we're like, oh, I'm really anxious about money,
then we're able to say I'm really anxious about and honestly, Michelle,
sometimes this can take people ten fifteen minutes to come
up with another word because they're just like, I'm anxious
about money. I'm anxious about money. This is it. I'm like, okay, okay,
and then maybe Okay, I'm anxious about running out of money.
(13:25):
I'm anxious about not having a job next year. I'm
anxious about not knowing how to talk to my kids
about money. I'm anxious about not knowing how you know,
how to talk about money without crying. That's very that
is very common actually for some of my clients, where
they think I can't talk about it without crying, therefore
I don't want to talk about it, right. So when
(13:47):
we take the money word out, then we're able to say, Okay,
these are the things I'm scared of, and that increases
understanding and if it's a partnership, that can increase affection
and connection, which those are goals of partnerships.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
I love the idea of taking the word out it's
language is so interesting. I mean the way people communicate.
If you have just a little tip.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Like that, it can change the entire conversation. So it
really does.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Is it done?
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:19):
It is wild? Well I love that.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And you know, I suppose that goes for ourselves just
talking to ourselves as well, because we get very scared
and then we have this conversation about you know, what
if I lose my job and then what if this happens?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
And what if that happens?
Speaker 2 (14:37):
And you know that also I mean to I mean
a process to get underneath all of this is really important.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Now.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I don't know if you are in fear or in anxiety.
Can you go there on your own? Or do you
do you need to be guided?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Oh that's a good the answer, yes and no, Okay,
that's good. Yeah, can you go there on your own?
Can you be guided? Now? I also like to write,
so I have written workbooks and given presentations and things
like that on this and so I have what I
have I now call the Financial Therapy Journal. And partly
(15:18):
because I love to journal, I have a blog post
Why I Journal, and it's kind of talks you, takes
you through why it helps me doesn't help everybody, but
I also say if it doesn't help you, I give
some tips, such as, some people need to talk out loud.
I like to write, but if you like to talk
out loud, take a walk. Talk out loud. The neighbors
will just think you're on your phone.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
That's it, right, true.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
But in the journal. One of the reasons that it
can be helpful and that you can do it on
your own is because one of the foundational exercises that
I have I call it breathe intend Move. So we
start with breath and just three or four breaths, just pausing,
because pausing allows you to regulate your nervous system before
(16:01):
you approach the money. Then we talk about intention setting,
and this is really important because a lot of times
we set intentions. No, we set goals that are actually intentions.
So we want to have an intention perhaps maybe I
want to make X number of dollars, or I want
to get out of debt, I want to have I
(16:24):
want my partner and I to understand each other better
and not fight about money. Those are too big to
be a goal, okay, so they're broad. Then the move
part is where you identify the action step right now
the journal is on sale, and I have two bonus
workshops in the month of May since it is Mental
health Awareness month. So if your listeners are catching this today,
(16:46):
there's still time to sign up for that where I
walk you through this even more deeply this exercise, but
essentially we're building in a pause and then we're building
in your hopes and dreams and then some action steps
that you can take in a short time period. When
you take an action step and you see yourself do this,
(17:07):
and you know there's lots of research on goal setting
and taking the steps and building momentum, that's part of.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
What it does.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
It cuts into the sort of that financial anxiety noise
or that uncertainty of what I can do, and it
brings you down to Okay, I can do this. Then
you build on that, and to use a money metaphor,
it's like putting deposits in the bank account instead of withdrawals.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Oh I love that.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I love all of this because I'm a huge journaler too,
and I've had a journal in my mind that I've
wanted to create forever. So every time somebody says I
have a.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Journal, I'm like, get on that journal. So thank you.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Maybe it'll push me. But I love that you have this.
I think journaling is just magical. I also like what
you said about speaking out loud. That's not really something
that I do that often, but there have been a
few times when I've been in the car and i
put my little you know, microphone on and maybe I'll
(18:06):
go into it to create a blog, for example, I'll
just start talking. It's kind of therapeutic talking to yourself.
I don't do it regularly, but as you brought that up,
it is also a good way. But and then sometimes
you can transcribe that and then you can reread it,
so it's not a bad way to go. But and
(18:28):
thank you for offering the journal and the workshops, because
that that sounds like a wonderful bonus with that. So
I'll put all of that in the show notes so
people can take advantage of that wonderful offer. And you know,
you bring up a great point, which is this takes
some doing, whether you're you know, I mean there are
(18:49):
this is a practice. And what you know, this idea
that your relationship with money is a forever thing, so
it's you will always be having conversations with others with
yourself and learning. As you were talking about the couples,
I was imagining what happens if both of the people
are pretty financially literate versus people who maybe one is
(19:13):
and one isn't, or both aren't. I think this idea,
and I've thought this for a long time, but I
am getting kind of more.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Adamant about it. But we have to spend our lives
learning about money, whether it's interesting to you or not.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I mean, we're using it every day, and so it's
kind of ridiculous to not understand it better. And I
just think that's part of what we need. It's sort
of like nutrition. You know, you really should learn, you
know what those labels mean when you read them. So, yeah,
what is your what are your thoughts about this idea
of financial literacy helping in this communication?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, well, you know it's to me. I love looking too,
because April is technically financial literacy month, and then May
is mental health awareness. And I put those two together
in several blog posts and emails that I've put out
because I think they come together very nicely. And I think,
(20:14):
you know, Michelle, think part of what you're really speaking
to if it's okay to use the word shame here
because I think what we're bumping into is the role
shame can play in our ability to communicate with ourselves
or communicate with others, because shame is constantly it's a bully,
it's constantly saying you don't know what you're talking about,
(20:36):
you're stupid, you're bad with money, all of these kind
of things. And if that's true, if you know, if
you are bad with money, which I don't believe is
a thing, so then you can't move forward, you can't
really have a conversation. So when we decrease the shame
and we create a more neutral environment that's that compassionate
(20:57):
curiosity and zero judgment, then we can begin to approach it.
And so, for instance, for a couple, if one if
one appears to have more maybe more financial data point
information than the other, then we want to build a
(21:18):
path to have communication that speaks to both of their brains.
Because sometimes we don't speak spreadsheet quote unquote, But that
doesn't mean we're bad with money. But I do bring
into a lot of people who assume that if they
don't if they're not comfortable spreadsheets, they can't do money,
which is not true. So when we begin to pause
(21:39):
and look at Okay, how does your brain look at
this data? How does your brain interpret? Because for instance,
one way a lot of my clients have found helpful
is to put the money numbers in a sentence, and
I literally have them write this sentence, which is very
different than fill in the points on the spreadshere. So
(22:00):
they write the sentence out. Maybe they're trying to build
a business plan and they're like, I want to have
this much income, and they put the number in the
sentence and all of a sudden, your brain can absorb
it differently. Does that make sense to you? Could you
see that happening? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, very interesting again, language languaging, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It's great, and recognizing your brain, like how does your
brain work? What is the way your brain begins to
take in data. So for a couple, if they can
come together and first learn about how each other's brain
process is information, then they're going to have more satisfying
money communication, don't you think?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
And the other thing that's coming to mind as you're
speaking is, you know, the financial world is very broad.
I mean there are million aspects to it, so you know,
and I think people are interested in certain things more
than others. And I think as a couple, you know,
it's okay for you to really understand budgeting or you know, savings,
(23:04):
and for somebody else to become more of an expert
in something else, in real estate or whatever they might
be interested in. And so this whole idea of being
smart with money, none of us are, you know, are
so well versed in every aspect of it.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
I mean that is not typical, but so and I
feel like people have a weird.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Understanding of that, like like they feel like they have
to be an expert in all these different areas to
be good with money, whereas I think you just have
to be continually looking at it, gaining understanding, and maybe
you find those areas that you want to learn about.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I'm kind of leaning into the mental.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Health awareness idea and trying to figure out how you
can feel more mentally healthy around money without knowing everything
there is to know.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Oh yeah, I mean that's a T shirt. You can
be more mentally healthy around money without knowing everything there
is to know. Yes, that's a T shirt. We'll press
those because absolutely nobody knows everything about money. It is
not a destination, right, it's a process. And having that
(24:22):
ability to have this really warm and welcoming environment to
learning is so cool. So I love how you said
that as we begin to look at that within our
mental health. Yeah, so some of the key emotional states
people may find themselves in with money. Can feel either
(24:44):
maybe highly anxious or highly depressed, and anxiety leads to
certain behaviors, depression leads to other behaviors. Both can feel hopeless,
both can feel unprepared, both can feel behind, and they
just sort of physically the body reacts in a different
way if that's an anxiety or a depression. For instance,
(25:05):
understanding where where you are emotionally almost like emotional literacy,
Like we love feelings wheels, which are you know, you
can google a feeling wheel and kind of look at
what am I feeling right now? When money comes up,
we can begin to look at that. And for instance,
(25:27):
if you notice, you know what, I go from not
anxious at all to on a scale of one to ten,
I am at an eleven point five of anxiety. As
soon as someone says money, then the next step would
not be to learn more about money. It would be
to practice a grounding skill. It would be to come
into something to soothe your brain, and that may mean,
(25:49):
you know, you put off the money conversation for thirty
minutes while you take a walk or something like that,
because you want to calm your brain first before you
engage in a money conversation, and so being aware of
what is your emotional state and how you can bring grounding, calming, soothing.
(26:11):
You'll often hear people talk about nervous system regulation, those
kind of words to your system before engaging about money,
because actually money details and data is the opposite of
what's going to be helpful.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
That's fascinating to me, especially because earlier this year I
went to like a three day doctor Joe to Spendza
workshop and I learned a lot about I mean mostly
he was talking to you about brain coherence and you know,
dysregulation and regulation and this concept that you can't learn
(26:48):
and you can't make the best decisions if you know,
you're basically dysregulated for lack of a more professional term,
And I found that really fascinating because, like you said
that really and with money, something happens. We get triggered,
We get you know, we see a bill that's too high,
or we you know, get some talking to at work
(27:11):
and we start worrying about our job security. These things
put us into kind of a panic mode and then
we start thinking of, you know, I better decide something
or I better you know, find a solution to this,
and it's not the time. And I think that's a
huge important thing. I've started using that with my daughter.
She calls me and she's panning, and I'm like, Okay,
first thing we're gonna do. Yeah, we're gonna get rid
(27:33):
of the panic, and then we'll talk.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. One of the ways this is an oversimplification,
but this explanations helped some people to look at your
brain can only do so many things at once. So
if your brain is highly anxious or highly depressed, or
like some sort of emotional state, because there are lots
of other emotional states, I'm just kind of using those
as common examples. It can't check the balance and figure
(27:59):
out how to pay thing, or it can't read. Sometimes
I'll spend sessions helping someone read their paystub because when
they're anxious about money, you know, they can't read the
past up. It blurs like it just gets foggy in
their brain. And so we'll that's kind of one of
the cool things about having this sort of work where
(28:19):
someone can have me sit down there and sit down
with them and go over it. So, but we can't
do that until we're calmer. The same thing with couples
when they're fighting, effective communications done, it's over, So don't
try to make a decision then until you're calm, until
it feels safe enough to talk about things. Same principle.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, that's really interesting. That's probably why sometimes these money
conversations like go all the way to we should break up,
like you know, I mean right, because you haven't pulled
up yes, or.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Kind of bringing up something they did twenty eight years ago,
and like I still remember when you didn't you know right?
I know, yeah, I mean because we've lost the we've
lost the point in the conversation.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
That's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
And there was something else that you said that made
me really think, because there have been times when I've felt,
you know, that level of stress where I've read something.
It wasn't a paste ub, but maybe I got a
letter from the irs or something, and I read it
and I'm in a panic and I think it says something,
and then I go back and reread it and it's
like I read it wrong. I mean, my brain didn't
(29:24):
even register what it was saying and it wasn't actually
as bad as I thought it was, which is very
interesting that that's what or brain into.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Yes, thanks for sharing that example too, Michelle, because I've
had a lot of your listeners have had that same
thing happen and just thought there was something wrong with them.
But now this happens, it happens to me too, like
it just happens.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have to be very aware of
the state of our brain, which is big takeaway from
me this year.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah, this is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
So I want to talk about something that you brought
up before we got on the air, because about affecting
our mental health.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
I mean, the news affects it.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I mean, what are you telling people right now where
there's so much going on that could negatively affect you?
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I mean, personally, I'm always telling people, you know, don't
watch the news, don't do those, don't do that. I'm
not sure people are listening, but that's kind of that's
my go to, is to turn off some of the noise.
But how about you know, what are some things that
people can do to kind of protect their mental health
right now?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, because I'm getting asked that a lot, like what
to do with with the news it's creating anxiety.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
And social media, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Social media I and I've even been interviewed from other
media outlets recently about this too, So I think it's
very much on the brain. There is the general consensus
wisdom watch less, consume less. What happens often though, is
(30:59):
if you are anxious, you will watch more, you know,
like noticing what's happening in your emotional state. Then so
I shifted to telling people are to recommending people start
thinking about curating their news sources. In other words, instead
(31:21):
of because we often do this with money, we're going
to log into our money account and find out how
bad we've done. Like, that's not a way. We don't
want to do that. We want to create a new
dialogue of I want to look in this money and
see what I want to know. Same thing with media,
of saying what do I want to know and how
(31:41):
much time do I want to spend on this? So
starting with that in mind, then you might want to know,
you know a couple of numbers, and I want to
spend twenty minutes on it or less, you know, possibly
the other thing too, that I think is really powerful
is listening to You're listening to a lot of all
(32:02):
or nothing language if you're listening to media, because that
is what piques our interest. If it sounds dramatic or
catastrophe or like a catastrophe, that's going to piuk our interest.
This is also very similar to how we language ourselves
around money. We often will think either I'm good or bad.
I'm bad with money, they're good with money. I'll never
(32:25):
figure this out. Everyone else has it figured out. Like
there's a lot of this all or nothing sort of
one thing or the other in our internal dialogue with money.
So when that's already happening in our heads and then
it's happening from a news source, it's like this unintentional
validation of the catastrophe that you've been fearing. So it's
(32:45):
really helpful to know your own self, know your own thoughts,
and recognize how that's going so that you can understand
how this is going to be, how you're going to
be impacted by someone else using very sort of like
all or nothing, which, for lack of a better word.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Yes, yeah, that is.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
I'm sorry. We'll cut this, Wendy, could you just turn
your camera on and off. For some reason, your camera
is frozen. So I just wanted to make sure, yes,
there you.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Go, don't need to repeat anything.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Just cut that piece out.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Can I still talk? What about the frozen part?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (33:26):
Yeah, we'll take care of it.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Yeah, you will, okay magically, so.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Smart Okay, and we're still recording, and just start.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
From me okay. So yeah, Wendy, that's great advice. I
I think it's a struggle. It's a struggle for me.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I mean I have a lot of little mechanisms in place,
and every now and then I'll just fall into a
rabbit hole. And every time I am just like, really,
I mean, I know better than this because my whole
you know, you feel it. I mean it's it's a
visceral sort of feeling.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
You shouldn't have gone.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
There, right right, Yeah, there is so much to talk about.
We are unfortunately getting to the end of our conversation.
I'd love for you to just sort of provide your
insights around, you know, this whole topic of mental health
and money and in whatever way you choose.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
You know, if.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
There's if there's some tips or so you've already given
a great number of tips, But if there's some sort
of wrap up ideas that you want to convey, I'd
love to hear that.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, well, I think first I will say I appreciate
your insight into having this conversation because you are really
you know, you're leading so many conversations about money, and
that with the insight that there's a relationship with money.
So I think that's really important for people to recognize
money is not just a set of a set of
(34:55):
data points or a set of definitions that we don't understand,
like what does this mean, but that it is something
that we have a relationship with. When we have a
relationship with that, that in and of itself can speak
to the fact that it can evolve and change over
time and grow and all of those kind of you know,
movement works that we're talking about versus you're bad with
(35:17):
money period, you know kind of things. So recognizing, first
of all, with insight that there's a lot of emotion
connected with our money decision making, and that it's a
relationship and it grows and changes over time, all of
those things can begin to help soothe your frayed nerves,
so to speak. If money creates anxiety and fear and
(35:41):
you get sort of frozen around it all of those things,
because really we want to know that there's a way out,
that this can get better, and I see it get
better all the time. So I encourage people to absolutely,
like re listen to our discussion today, write down some
of the tips and tricks that we talked about. Check
out the a quiz on my website that helps you
(36:01):
identify what we call your money shadow, which is essentially
like just finding some new words for what might be
getting in the way of having the best money life
you want to have the having relaxed money, relaxed relationship
with money. And then some of the journal prompts are
there as well, so it's it can be really powerful
to get those and that's all that wendywritefinancial therapy dot com.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
That's great, Thank you, Wendy. And you know another thing
that just so you keep jogging my mind around things.
But money is not just like a straight line kind
of trajectory. I mean, things happen in life that you
know you're you're earning and you're saving and you're doing
things and then suddenly you know whether it's whatever I mean,
(36:46):
things happen in your life. You have kids, you get divorced,
you things happen, and so you know, from a mental
health perspective, you have to be okay with the journey
and the expectations. And so, I don't know, is there
something that you tell people so they can ride these
waves and like deal with it?
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah? Well I think you just made another T shirt, Michelle.
You have to be okay with the journey.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
I'm going to go into that business I make.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
I know we got two already for our line.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Absolutely. I think the sort of metaphors that imply movement,
such as journey, growth, story, Often one of my favorite
prompts is what story do you want your money to tell?
So that the fact that there's there, we go, we
got another T shirt.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
So having all of those sort of in your mind
is really powerful, and that in and of itself is
really new for a lot of people. So once you
just begin to open that up, a lot of things
flow from that.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Yeah, thank you. That's a great answer. Well, Wendy, second time.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
I loved it. I'd love for you to come back
for more.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
So you're a great guest and great in sites, and
what you're talking about is probably the most important thing.
I mean, if money is damaging you know, your mental health,
it's super important to take control of that. And you know,
and it's affecting everybody's mental health. I think that's another
Just like we need to understand we have a relationship
(38:17):
with money, we have to understand that it is constantly
affecting our emotions or moods or everything, and so it's
something not to be afraid of, but to work on.
And I love that you're helping people do that, and
so thank you, and thank you for all the interesting
(38:37):
information you brought to the table, and thank you for
the offer so people can continue to you know, get
more of this, so I'll be sure and put it
all in the show notes. And yeah, just love having
you on this program. I think, you know, what you're
doing is really helping people to understand this relationship with
money and how to navigate it, so as well as
(38:58):
practical things. I mean, that comes first, but then the
fact that you can also talk to them about their
numbers is super great. So thank you, and I will
you know, I'll be following you and I'd love to
see your journal, which I'll put again in the show notes.
And so yeah, thank you for all you do and
(39:21):
for coming on the show.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
I love it. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah, this is great, and audience, thank you. We love
it when you listen to The Money and You Show.
So please find me at limit FreeLife dot com, reach
out to me if you have questions or ideas or
anything at Michelle at limitfreelife dot com. You can find
Wendy and I'll put all of her information in the
show notes and reach out to her as well. Check
(39:47):
out her upcoming journal workshops and if you would like
the Layoff workshop, she has offered that very generously, so
that's great. And yeah, if you enjoyed the show, if
you know anybody who could benefit from the show, please
share it.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
That's one of.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
The things that really helps us. If you share the
show and also rate and review it. If you enjoyed it,
then that would be wonderful. And well, we'll see you
next week on the Money and You Show. Thank you
ubn Go for bringing the show out into the world.
And I love doing the show, so thank you for watching.
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