EP 179: Coverage for Every Chapter: Life, Disability, and Long-Term Care Insurance”

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
As a woman, I have had the pleasure of sitting
in meetings that people booked with my husband, not knowing
my background, and really getting to explore just how brazen
people will be in their attempts to tell you that,
you know, the grass is not green. And so I've
seen it firsthand. I know it happens, and not just

(00:25):
at fly by night shops that you've never heard of.
I'm talking about places that anyone would recognize if I
said the name now. And it is shocking. It is
as shocking as it is appalling. But I've seen that firsthand,
and so I think that if you're getting the sense
that like your questions aren't being answered, that is a
big red flag too.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hey there, and welcome to Money and You. I'm Michelle Perkins,
your host. My search for more fulfilling work led me
to career in business coaching, where I stumbled upon a
game changing discovery. Money issues often start with our mind
set and habits. You see, our relationship with money is
the key to overcoming those frustrating financial obstacles. As an entrepreneur, coach,

(01:08):
and problem solver, I'm passionate about helping you create a
great relationship with money. Because turns out that's the foundation
for a limit free life. Each week on Money in You,
I speak with amazing guests about all things money, mindset,
practical tips, and everything in between. We're here to give
you new insights, education and empowerment, so money can be

(01:30):
one of your favorite relationships. So join us for some
lively conversations and let's transform your financial life together. Hello, Hello,
welcome to the Money and You Show. I'm so excited
about this episode. I'm Michelle Perkins, your host, and you
know today I love our guest today because she's doing
something that I wish more people in the financial world

(01:52):
would do, which is basically offering honesty and truth and
a really good path for each individual client that makes
most sense for them versus for her company. And I
can't wait to introduce you to Wallace Cy. I'm going
to tell you a little about her and her background,

(02:14):
and then we're going to jump into a great financial
discussion today. So have you ever wondered if you're getting
the full story on insurance? Today's guest, Wallace Ci, is
here to set the record straight. A former Goldman Sachs
investment banker and hedge fund hedge fund investor. Wallace founded

(02:35):
above Board Financial to bring transparency to an industry riddled
with bad advice and conflicts of interest. She helps affluent professionals,
high net worth families, and fiduciary advisors make smarter, data
driven decisions about life, disability and long term care insurance
without the sales fluff. Get ready to cut through the

(02:55):
noise and rethink what you know about insurance. So, Wallace, welcome,
Thanks so much for having me. I'm so happy you're here.
We had such a good conversation and before when we
talked and I just thought, oh my gosh, I have
to have you come and have this discussion with our
listeners because while what you do is about insurance, it's

(03:21):
actually fascinating when you talk about it and so important.
And of course I think we all know the value
of insurance, but there's so much confusion, and there's so
much marketing out there that isn't necessarily, you know, kind
of helping us to feel a sense of trust in
who we're dealing with and what we're buying. So can

(03:41):
you give us a little background as to how you
ended up here?

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Sure, So, as you mentioned, I was at Goldman Sachs
for a little bit over ten years, and the entire
time I was there, I was focused on financial institutions,
so companies that included banks, insurance companies, and investment managers,
and I was struck by how often I had to
rely on my professional expertise to navigate successfully as a consumer,

(04:06):
and also how often colleagues and friends would come to
me and ask for advice about the stuff that they
were being advised to do, and I was frankly shocked
by how often it was just not really good advice.
And I loved advising people on how to make the
industries work for them, because these a lot of these

(04:27):
financial products, when they're used correctly, can be really fantastic,
whether it's helping somebody achieve goals or avoid like really
tragic downside scenarios. When you use this stuff correctly, it
can go really well, but it can also go really
badly if it's used incorrectly. And so I felt like
that opportunity to raise the bar for quality of advice

(04:50):
was really appealing, and so I left Goldman when I
was a few months away from welcoming my first child
into the world, and I decided to start above board really.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Thereafter, thank you. I love the name too. I mean
it kind of says it all. But I think, you know,
the lack of transparency and the like you said, the
conflict of interests in that arena are pretty there's you know,
they have a strong poll and so I really appreciate

(05:20):
what you're doing. And I think you know, when people
see that there are financial experts out there who feel
the way you do and are really trying to, you know,
have your back. I just think it makes a huge
difference to help people relate to money. I mean, you know,
it's hard to relate to money when you feel like
everyone out there is just trying to take your money
and not necessarily benefit you. So I think in an

(05:43):
indirect way, it really helps people to have that better
relationship with money. And we need advisors, we need people
on our side, We need our team that is helping
us with these decisions, and these are some of these
things are complex. I mean, you know, people aren't going
to necessarily know what they're buying, and so they need
somebody like you to give them an accurate description. So

(06:06):
you mentioned sometimes a scenario where people might kind of
have something that takes them into a worse situation. Do
you have some kind of a case study or a
story about that so people can visualize it?

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah, sure, things. So I think for a lot of people,
like we're all just very busy dealing with the life
that's in front of us right now. I think a
lot of us feel like we're busy and maybe like
a little overscheduled, overextended, and so sometimes it can be
really hard to connect with both your future self as
well as the sort of range of potential outcomes for

(06:43):
future you, which you frankly includes some kind of not
so fun to think about, downside outcomes. And so in
the part of our business where we're helping people mitigate
the financial risks around what I'll call sort of bad
luck or bad news, we have to think about things like,
you know, what would happen if if somebody died prematurely,

(07:04):
or what would happen if you were too sick or
injured to work? And so those are important things to
think about because I think a lot of us, and
this is totally I think coming from a place that's
well intentioned and some of my self protective, right like,
we don't like to think about those things. And we've
met some of our clients unfortunately after their spouse already

(07:25):
had that journey and realized from direct experience that you know,
for example, receiving like a stage four cancer diagnosis when
you've got young kids at home and not having enough
or not having any life insurance is a really really
challenging place to be, right, Like the health news alone
is horrible, and then when you layer on top of that,

(07:47):
like in the scenario that I'm thinking about for this
particular individual, the final months of life were spent like
modeling out in a spreadsheet what changes the surviving family
would need to make to try and make it work.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
Right.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
It's just like that doesn't have to happen, right, Like,
you can't reduce the risk of bad luck to zero,
but you can reduce the risk that bad luck would
automatically flow to financial distress to zero. Right, you can
take that risk off the table. And so that's part
of what we do, like helping people make sure that

(08:25):
whatever life holds, the financial piece of it is going
to stay on track.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Right, Yeah, thank you. I know it's a terrible thing
to think about. And if you've you know, like I
think you and I have both taken care of parents,
and you you know, this all really comes to life
when you're trying to use their you know, long term
care insurance or you know, access life insurance after the fact,

(08:51):
I mean the reality of how these things work too.
I don't think it is generally understood by people. Wasn't
understood by me. A lot of surprises there. So is
that something that you would help people, you know, educate
people on.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah. Absolutely so when we have clients who are looking
at any of these products, we really want our clients
to make an informed decision because I strongly believe that
when clients are empowered to make an informed decision, it's
much much easier for them to make the right decision.
And so I view it as our job to illuminate
the range of reasonable choices available and explain kind of

(09:31):
why something is or is not a reasonable choice, and
then empower that client to say, okay, like I have
these questions, and then once I have those answered, like,
I'm ready to decide like what makes sense for me.
And I find that that process leads to better outcomes
long term, and also people encountering this experience of feeling

(09:51):
like I just made a smart financial decision right, which
is not always the experience people have. But one of
the reasons I started both board was because I noticed
that when you explain things clearly to people, they're oftentimes
more than capable of making a good decision or asking

(10:11):
you a follow up question about something that they need
clarified before they feel ready. And I want our client's
experience to be that they feel empowered and they get
their stuff done and they end up in a place
that they're going to be proud of and happy about
for the long term.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, you know, as you're speaking, I'm realizing insurance is
such a funny thing because you know, we all know
that we may never use it, and yet we pay
in for our whole lives. But the sense of just
calm from having it. I don't know how you put,
you know, a dollar value on that, but I know
personally just how it feels, and you know, and so

(10:50):
it is a tough area to make decisions on. It's
a gamble, and you know, like you say, can go
really bad, it can be incredibly valuable, and you don't
ever know if you're even going to ever need it,
you know. So I find it to be a little
fascinating as as we're talking about this I personally like

(11:14):
to have life insurance. I mean, that's one that's kind
of a no brainer for me. Some are mandated, like
auto insurance, so you don't really think about that one
as much. But you know, I've also been through the
fires in LA and really seen, you know, how how
much of a difference good insurance versus you know, poor

(11:35):
insurance makes on people's futures after you know, an emergency
situation like that. So what I mean if you sat
down with a client and just had this discussion about
what insurance do you need? And this is very much generalizing,
but what are your you know, like priorities in this

(11:57):
What do you think is most important two things?

Speaker 1 (12:00):
That's a good question. And so the insurance coverages that
we work with here at above Board our life insurance,
disability insurance, and long term care insurance. But there are
absolutely themes that come up with auto and homeowners that
you mentioned that you can apply in some ways to life,
disability and long term care as well. And so whenever
we meet with a client or they come to our website,

(12:22):
we first want to make sure that we understand their
situation and take the risk of financial disaster off the table.
So our highest priority is first to make sure that
we've made smart decisions to help them mitigate the risk
of financial disaster. So what do I mean by that?
So it's going to vary a little bit by the

(12:43):
individual's situation, including what loved ones they have in life
and also what stage of life they're in. Right, the
analysis is different if somebody's children are already young adults
who are self supporting, versus somebody's situation is that expecting
their first child in the next few months, And so

(13:04):
the key question that we want to understand is, first,
is this person or couple or family at a place
where they are ready to comfortably retire in the standard
of living that they want. And if the answer is yes,
which to be clear, is not the situation for most people,
then we have a number of very sophisticated and interesting

(13:25):
estake planning strategies that we can talk through with clients
that might be applicable to them. But usually the answer
is like no, like I'm actually still working, or my
spouse or partner is still working to sustain the lifestyle
that we want for ourselves and or for our loved ones,
which you mayor may not include children, And so usually
when somebody has no financial dependence, they at least need

(13:48):
to have disability insurance. And a lot of people will think, well,
I'm pretty sure I have coverage through work, and that
may or may not be true. Some employers offer it,
some don't. But even when employers do offer it, the
vast majority of workplace disability plans set you up for
a large drop in take home pay if you actually
need to use those benefits. The drop in take hom

(14:09):
pay is usually at least forty percent. That's like four zero, right,
So it's a big cut. And what we can help
people with is getting a supplemental policy that fills that gap.
And there are a number of things you can choose
to sort of dial up the protection or dial it
down to be mindful of budget goals if that's a concern,

(14:34):
And an example there would be that a lot of
disability policies will cover you until age sixty five or
sixty seven or even seventy in some cases. But sometimes
people just feel like, you know what, that's out of
budget for me. And if that is the case, the
good news is that you can get a shorter policy
that's say a maximum of five years or even in
some cases a maximum of two years. And one of

(14:57):
the things we emphasize at above Board is that something
is almost always better than nothing, because if you think
about that moment when like you get the call from
the radiologist who's telling you that your scan, you know,
showed that it looks like something is high risk, and
then the lab came back and said that you know,
or that you need to go in for biopsy, and

(15:17):
then you wait for the biobcy results and they call
back and say, you know, we wanted to share a
few that the lab showed that it's stage you know,
to cancer, or like when you get that call, right,
your whole world just turns upside down. And even having
like two years five years to just say the financial
stuff I can address later, right, Like, I know that
my policy is not going to take me to retirement.

(15:39):
That was a choice that I made for budget reasons.
But at least I have something, right, I have a
little bit of breathing room to figure this out. We
try to help people find that mix of protection and
budget that works for them, and the same thing applies
to term life insurance right. Term life insurance is a
bit like homeowners in auto, where if you get it
and you never file a claim. Honestly, that's a win,

(16:01):
yea right, Like any time you qualify for term life insurance,
it means that statistically you're very out likely to live
the policy, and it's priced accordingly. You know, lifelong insurance
coverage is about six to ten times more expensive than
term life on average, precisely because term is designed to
only hedge that risk that you die much younger than

(16:21):
would be normal. And so if other people in your
life still depend on your income or care you provide
for free, that's a really big one that sometimes gets overlooked, right,
because a lot of care provided for free has real value,
and so it's worth considering if that needs coverage too.
But between disability and term life insurance, those are our
biggest disaster mitigation tools for people who are pre retirement.

(16:47):
And then looking ahead to long term care right and
thinking about so that more than half of people who
are lucky enough to see age sixty five end up
needing long term care, right, which is a real statistic.
It's good to think it a dance about like if
I end up in that group of people, like what
choices would I want to have available for future me?

(17:07):
And like how would I be feel how would I
feel comfortable? And then taking those goals and matching them
up with like, well, what's available in the market, and
like what can I afford? What makes sense in developing
a strategies that you feel like, Okay, I'm set up
in life in a way where, regardless of what the
future holds, whether I live the dream, am a hundred
and then pass away peacefully in my sleep after having

(17:29):
a fabulous dinner and walk with.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
My dome with my dog, right like that that is
the or like.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Whether I have like you know, eight years of cognitive
decline where the body is still going but the mind
no longer is right. You know that in either of
those scenarios, I will at least be okay, right, And
so that's the type of analysis help analysis we help
people do from a disaster mitigation perspective.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
And you know, to your point, some of it is
about you being okay. A lot of it is about
being the people in your life being okay because you
know the burden will fall on them and so on.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, and just knowing that you haven't overburdened your loved
ones or created a scenario where they'll be like, oh
my gosh, like why did she not set this up better? Like,
oh my gosh, how could he not have done X
Y Z right, Like, you want to try and set
things up so that if, if, and when something suboptimal
does come up, your loved ones are kind of like,
oh my gosh, like I'm so glad that, like mom

(18:27):
had that life insurance for like, oh, I didn't know
that Dad had bought a long term care policy. That's
amazing now that Mom's in a nursing home, right, Like,
And I think that also leads to a sense of
like pride and confidence in oneself right, knowing that you're prepared, Yeah,
for sure, And that's that's what we're always going for,
that sense of being prepared and feeling proud of what
you've done.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, And it circles back to kind of the stress level,
which is not good for anybody, but you know, and
it sort of grow old more peacefully with less stress.
If you've set that up so benefits you know, your people,
it benefits yourself. I feel like these days, anything that
you can do with your money that brings that sense

(19:10):
of peace and you're right, there is a pride in it,
I know, with my parents. They had set up things
pretty well, and my dad was still pretty anxious and
worried about things, and I think, wow, you know, he
did a way above average job of setting things up,
and so I mean I kept trying to tell him

(19:30):
that he had done a good job. But I felt,
you know, obviously relieved and very much like just so
happy that they had I felt like it was a
huge favor they did for me, I mean totally Yeah.
So if you can do that for somebody else, that's
also great. So, you know, I think there are a

(19:52):
lot of questions as people, a lot of these things.
You know, I don't care, and I think, well, when
it was presented to me in my forties, it seemed
to expensive and plus all of this seemed too far away,
and I was like, just worry about that later. Okay.
So with respect to the long term care, I think
there's a lot more out there than people realize, and

(20:13):
it would be a really good idea just to talk
to you or someone in your position about what the
options are, because yeah, we did. That is an area
in particular that I feel like people get a lot
of different advice. What is something that you know people
are telling potential clients that you wish they didn't tell them.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
Oh, there's so many answers to the question, are you
curious specifically about long term care?

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Well, that's what sparks the thought, but not necessarily like
kind of any insurance?

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Got it? Got it? So I'll answer with one one
for long term care and then another for life insurance.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Okay, great, so fer of it.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
So with long term care, I would say that it's
important to have realistic assumptions about long term asset returns.
And what I mean by that is that I see
a lot of people trying to do the analysis of like, well,
should I buy a policy or should I just invest
my money?

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Right?

Speaker 1 (21:15):
And that's a good question to ask that that's actually
a very smart question to think through. But importantly, you
can end up with a really wrong answer if you
start with the wrong assumptions. And because we've been in
a period of really extended strong equity markets really since
the global financial crisis, do you see people being advised

(21:39):
that like, oh, you know, you should just save this
money in a brokerage account and you'll come out ahead.
But then the return assumption underpinning that analysis is that
the S and P five hundred is going to return
nine percent or ten percent every year for decades, right,
And I would suggest that is a really dangerous, flawed assumption.

(22:00):
And because even nine percent compounded gets you a much
bigger number twenty thirty, forty fifty years from now than
if you run six or seven percent, which is a
much more realistic long term assumption. And when you think about, like, well,
what are long term sustainable returns, I think that the

(22:21):
analysis very clearly points to six to seven percent. And
you know this is not like my own you know,
independent like I'm not the first person to say this, right,
Like Warren Buffett is on record as saying that, like
six to seven percent is like a reasonable assumption for
long term equity returns. And actually, for regulatory and compliance reasons,
I am not allowed by law to show higher than
eight percent. Interesting, and so because my broker dealer says,

(22:45):
look above eight percent, Like, sure that could happen, but
that would be an aggressive assumption. And yet I sometimes
see people getting advice, either from family, friends or sometimes
even their financial advisor, that oh, like you could get
nine percent with the S and P five hundred, And
I just think that's incorrect. Right, I think that that's
really setting people up to be disappointed long term, that

(23:06):
is what it has been lately. Like, if you look
at the last ten years, you might think that you
see the logic for that, But I would suggest that
is a very risky assumption to make going forward from here,
And so I would suggest using kind of like you know,
call it. You know, personally I run four to five
percent for fixed and comer bonds and like six to
seven percent for equities. You know, there can be a

(23:28):
range of reasonable around those numbers. I'm not saying that
my range is for sure the only range that's correct,
but I think you also need to sort of pause
and say, like, well, if I'm making an assumption about
what's going to happen over the coming decades, what's the
cost of me being wrong? And would I rather be
wrong in having assumed something that was too optimistic or

(23:52):
too cautious, right, like, which would be more comfortable? And
so when we run the analysis, you know, we use
the assumptions that I think are reasonable. And so I
think one of the things I'm aware of in the
market is people being advised to kind of look at
the last ten years as a run rate, and I
worry that that could end up going badly for them,
and in terms of life insurance, you know, I think that, oh, man,

(24:14):
like this could be like its own show entirely honestly,
like all the bad advice out there, and like the
different permutations it takes.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
It is very confusing because for a while it felt simple,
and then all of a sudden there were so many
you know, I don't even know what the name of
them is at this point. I mean those Whole Life
and Universal Life and you know, all kinds of it
felt like a lot of name changing to kind of
move away from any bad reputation that things might have had.

(24:42):
I don't know, but yeah, I personally got very confused.
And then you would hear people say, you know, you'd
hear the people who were selling these policies talk about
the you know, insane benefits of them and all the
many ways they could be used, and then you'd hear
the other people saying, oh, don't ever touch that with
a fifty foot poll. So then you do nothing again,

(25:05):
or you do the one that you understand the best,
which is clearly the term life.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, so I would say that, you know, I think
with respect to life insurance, and I'll qut something that
I actually use as a slide when I teach an
annual course on how to avoid insurance rip offs at
Harvard Business School. Okay, with respect to life insurance, I
always say, you know, if you have people in your
life who depend on your income or care, then start

(25:32):
by just getting enough term life insurance and you will
never have messed up too badly. Yeah, yeah, right, So
that's kind of a simple way to keep in mind.
And then I think that beyond that, right, there are
really smart and excellent use cases for permanent life insurance,
and permanent is just an umbrella category that includes whole
life insurance, universal life insurance, variable life insurance, and those

(25:55):
are all different types of products, which you know, I
could go into the details of them if you think
that's how, but I think the key takeaway is that
there's nothing. There are no absolutes, right Like, It's not
like any of those categories is always bad or always good,
which I know can be kind of an unsatisfying answer,
but it very much comes down to what is the

(26:17):
person trying to get out of their insurance policy, and
then how is the policy itself structured? But I think
one simple rule that I would suggest for any listener
who's considering a permanent life insurance policy is that the
person you're talking to or the agent, and we're always
happy to engage in these conversations with our clients, and

(26:38):
in fact we proactively point the stuff out, is how
could this policy disappoint me in the future, Like what
would happen in the world or to me where this
coverage might not do all the great stuff you've talked about.
And if you get an answer that's nonspecific or claims

(26:59):
that no such scenario exists, I would suggest that's a
huge red flag. Yeah, because with all these insurance policies,
and yeah, I own permanent life insurance myself, right, like,
I really like certain elements of it. Certain carriers have
great product, and if you structure the policy correctly for
a person's goal and situation, goals and situation, it can

(27:21):
really be a home run. So I'm not saying that
there's not a valid use case for permanent life insurance.
There totally is. But with any financial instrument, there are
risks and considerations. There are scenarios where you could end
up feeling like, oh, man, like that wasn't what I
was hoping for. And if the person you're talking to
you cannot credibly explain those things, then that's a problem

(27:45):
in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah, I love that, and I love that you will
openly sit down and talk about what could go wrong,
what could go right, and you know the person will
have all the information. But to lay out these scenarios
because we can't envision them when we don't. I haven't
seen it in action, We haven't, you know, we just
don't have that breadth of understanding.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
So just to share like a couple of anecdotes about
stuff we've seen, Like, you know, whole life insurance can
be great for people when they go into it thinking
I want something that's like a really solid, not at
all volatile foundation in my portfolio. And it can be
great if people go in knowing that it kind of
works more like fixed income or bonds than equities or stocks.

(28:29):
But we'll have folks who were sold whole life somewhere
else years ago and they come to us and they're
like the SMP has five hundred has been on fire,
Like why is my insurance policy not reflecting that? And
it's like, well, whole life insurance is really not designed
to be connected to the S and P five hundred
in any way, shape or form. And if you know

(28:50):
that going in, and you sign up for Whole Life
kind of understanding what it can do for you and
also what it cannot do for you, then you have
very strong odds of being youper happy with your Whole
Life insurance policy long term. But if somebody sold it
to you as like maybe having some upside to the
investment investing world, without clearly explaining what it does and

(29:11):
doesn't do, then you can be really disappointed. And so
our goal is always that clients will know what they
own and understand going in, like why they're doing it
and what they can expect from it.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, you know, it feels like every conversation about anything
boils down to really clear communication and a deep enough
understanding of what you're doing, and that ties back to
the really good communication. So you know, I just feel like,
you know, it's not that other people don't necessarily have

(29:43):
the product, but other people don't necessarily know how to,
you know, teach the user of the product exactly, you know,
all the different aspects of it. And I think that's
so important. And I think a lot of the financial
world doesn't think they need to do that. I don't
know why, but or it's a sales strategy, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah, it's an interesting question. So I think your question
kind of gets at the heart of like what is
malintent versus what is just ignorance? Right? And I think
it can be hard to assess. But I think one
thing that I found since I got into the industry
as a practitioner, right, rather than a student of the industry,
is that, well, bad intentions are definitely problematic, but good

(30:31):
intentions when they're not supported by real understanding, Like a
good person who intends to do well for their clients
maybe just doesn't have the background or depth of knowledge
to really understand how some of these more complex products work,
they can still lead clients astray, even if they intended
to do good.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
Right, Yeah, you're so right on that. And I had
another woman who is a mortgage broker, top mortgage broker
in the country, and she was talking about the same thing,
Like she'll be listening to people even on the news
or you know, in the media, talking about you know,
the real estate market and mortgages, and and she'll just

(31:13):
be listening saying this is so inaccurate, Like everything they're
saying is not correct. So I think it is so
important to choose, you know, your financial team, like I
said before, based on a lot of things. You know,
not this person has been a family friend forever and

(31:35):
they happen to sell insurance. I mean, you know, I
think that's that could be good, but you really need
somebody who is really knowledgeable, an excellent communicator. I mean,
what else do you think that because I know your
company does things differently, what else should people look for?

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah? So I think also transparency, right, I think ability
to explain you know, what your role is and how
you're set up as a business or an individual. So
for example, at above Board, we are an independent insurance
brokerage and we have no special affiliation with any one carrier.
We don't have any special incentive to favor selling one

(32:12):
carrier's products over another's. And that is not the case
for a lot of practitioners in the industry. A number
of people have either an explicit affiliation where they're like
they got an employer, they're a captive agent of that employer.
They're only pushing that employer's products. And then there's a

(32:33):
gray area that I think is actually a much bigger
number of people where they have an affiliation and the
degree that which that affiliation is clear to a customer
may or may not be clear. But they'll represent to
the client that like, oh, I can go to anybody
for your business. But the part that they're not saying

(32:53):
is that if they place the business with their favorite carrier,
they get paid acts. If they go out side, they
get paid forty or fifty percent of acts. And like,
I get calls about joining these other places myself, right
just as a person with an insurance license, and so
I've returned a few of those calls and kind of asked, like, well,
how would it work, right, And so those incentive structures

(33:16):
because I want to understand, right, like I was sort
of observing the behavior in the industry, but I was
curised to know the behind the scenes. And so there
is a group of people where they can definitely honestly
say that, oh, I can go to many different carriers,
but that's not really the full story. And so I
think working with people that are willing to be like
direct and transparent and just like this is how we

(33:37):
set up or set up this is how we operate
is important and I feel like, also, if I can
just add one more thought there, working with somebody where
when you, you know, ask a question, you got a
straight intelligible answer, yeah, or if it's not intelligible, like
when you kind of say that person, Hey, you know

(33:57):
that didn't totally make sense to me, can you just
like try that again? And or like, hey, when you
said that thing, like what did you mean? I think
that's really important because one thing I've noticed, and I'm
from like the finance Wall Street world, is that there's
definitely this culture of like in the industry, I would say,
of like both buttering people up but also setting up

(34:17):
like a little bit of a shame structure where it's
like if you ask to know, if you ask questions, like,
maybe it means that you don't see how great this
thing is. Maybe you're not quite as insightful or smart
about finance topics as I thought you were. So I'm
obviously like saying this facetiously, but you know, the I
think that that's just like a total racket. And as

(34:40):
a woman, I have had the pleasure of sitting in
meetings that people booked with my husband not knowing my
background and really getting to explore just how brazen people
will be in their attempts to tell you that, you know,
the grass is not green. And so I've seen it firsthand.

(35:00):
I know it happens, and not just sit fly by
night shops that you've never heard of. Like I'm talking
about places that anyone would recognize if I said the
name now. And it is shocking. It is as shocking
as it is appalling. But I've seen that firsthand, and
so I think that if you're getting the sense that
like your questions aren't being answered, that is a big

(35:21):
red fly too.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Oh. I couldn't agree more. And I can't tell you
how many people I've talked to who don't want to
see experts in the industry because they feel like they
don't know enough or they feel like they'll be embarrassed
by their questions. That doesn't even make sense to me,
Like I'll ask a million questions everywhere I go, and
it probably does drive a lot of people crazy, but

(35:44):
I'm curious it's not because it's really for no other reason.
I'm trying to educate myself all the time. So I
love that, and I do feel like we get a
lot of interesting sort of. We either get things brushed
under the rugs sort of and which leaves you feeling like,
you know, that wasn't even a question you should have asked,

(36:05):
or we just get a confusing answer. We get an
answer that is like maybe somebody in the industry would understand,
but the late person is not going to know what
you're talking about. So I love that you said that.
I think that is the I think that is a
huge red flag. If you walk out thinking I don't
understand what we just talked about, then I'd head for

(36:26):
the hills unless you can.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yeah, Or I think it's just add that. I think
it's natural to have moments when you're getting up a
learning curve we're like, oh wow, like I'm not sure
I really understood that. I think that is like a
normal part of the learning process, especially for you know, frankly,
like people who are kind of like high achieving type
a's who are maybe used to feeling confident, like they
know what's going on, right, So I don't want to
suggest that feeling like, oh man, I'm not sure I

(36:51):
really understood that, or feeling like a little uncomfortable with
one's own lack of knowledge necessarily means that something is wrong, right,
I would say, if you feel like you can't go
back to the professional and say, hey, you know, you
said this thing about X y Z, and it occurred
to me afterwards that I wasn't totally sure what you
meant by that. Could you explain it to me again? You, Like,

(37:11):
if you don't get a positive response, that indicates that
that professional wants to work with you to achieve understanding.
I would say that's the thing to be really worried about,
because like learning curves can be sloppy, right, but like,
ultimately you should feel like you're able to get there
through dialogue with the professional you're engaging.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, that was a much better way of putting it
than the way I put it. That was excellent.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
You're right, there is in the fact that feeling like
uncomfortable with lack of knowledge is oftentimes a natural part
of the process. But like you should be able to
work together to move out of that space too.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
Yeah. Yeah, and that person should appreciate that you're interested
in understanding it because ultimately that's going to help down
the road. You're going to have, you know, expectations that
are aligned and everything else. So Yeah, that's so good. Well, Wallace,
I could talk all day about all of this, and

(38:10):
I think people you know can see how relatable you
are and how knowledgeable you are, and I really would
love for you to tell people, you know, Again, there's
a website on your on the screen here, but some
people aren't watching either, So can you tell people how
to get in touch with you? And you know when

(38:31):
what's the maybe thinking of? Yeah? Go ahead?

Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yeah, So I would say for anyone who's listening, definitely
feel free to come visit us at our website, which
is www dot above board financial dot com. And if
you go to above board Financial that's spelled above board
Financial dot com slash limit free Life, you'll see that
we've set up a page for like listeners to this podcast,

(38:55):
and it'll give you a little overview of the different
things we do spanning life and disability and long term
care insurance. And it'll offer a path to a few
different questionnaire as we have on our site that can
help you get a rough idea of pricing if that's
what you're interested in, or schedule a call to talk
with one of my colleagues or myself about the thing
that you think might be suitable for your situation and goals,

(39:18):
so definitely feel free to reach out. You know, we
love to help folks navigate these things successfully.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
Thank you so much, and thank you for that lovely
dedicated page. And yeah, I love this and I really
hope the audience listening does reach out to you, because
I think you are a wealth of knowledge, and I
also think that this is, you know, while people are
trying to budget and get out of debt and do
all these things, insurance is a huge piece of the

(39:45):
financial well being, you know, a kind of situation. So
I really think it's it's a very very important aspect
of your financial life. So thank you for doing what
you do and for yeah putting you know, coming on
the show, and for putting this company together in the

(40:05):
way you have. It's unique and I'm super excited to
have met you and to know about you and what
you're doing. So thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Thanks so much, Michelle, I really enjoyed our conversation.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yeah, me too, when definitely could have gone longer, but unfortunately,
so people make sure you reach out to Wallace at
above Board and thank you so much for listening to
the show. We love having you as listeners on the
Money and You show, and we are here every week,
so please subscribe, share the show if you enjoyed it,

(40:39):
if you know somebody who could benefit, and rate and review,
and yeah, thank you so much. We'll see you next week.

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