Ep 189: The Confident Divorce: Mastering Your Money Matters

In this podcast episode of "Money & You," host Michelle Perkins discusses the critical relationship between mindset and money management with her guest, Ed Vargo. Ed is the co-founder and President of Burning River Advisory Group and EnlightenHer, a community devoted to money mentorship for women. With more than 24 years of experience in the financial services industry and father of 5 girls, Ed strives to help women develop a long-term financial plan for every stage of life including retirement planning, college planning, and transitioning successfully in cases of death and divorce.

They explore the importance of educating oneself about finances, especially in the context of divorce, where women may feel overwhelmed and unprepared. The discussion highlights the need for a shift in how financial services approach women, advocating for a more empathetic and understanding framework that aligns with women's unique perspectives on money.

The episode underscores the significance of treating financial literacy as a survival skill rather than a secondary concern. This conversation reflects ongoing societal challenges regarding financial empowerment for women. Insights shared are vital for fostering a healthier relationship with money, particularly for those navigating significant life changes like divorce, ultimately aiming to empower listeners to take control of their financial futures.

00:01 - Mindset and money connection 
09:07 - Empowering financial mindsets 
22:14 - Connecting with financial advisors 
35:30 - Navigating divorce financially 
45:44 - Post-divorce financial empowerment   

 The conversation emphasizes the importance of financial education and mindset in overcoming the challenges associated with divorce and rebuilding one's financial future. The podcast highlights that many individuals, particularly women, feel overwhelmed and lack knowledge about financial matters related to divorce, often due to misconceptions and a lack of education on the topic.

The podcast emphasizes that a positive or neutral mindset about money is crucial for taking effective action, suggesting that without the right mindset, individuals may struggle to engage with their finances confidently.

Key Takeaways:  - A strong mindset is foundational for effective financial management and decision-making. - Women often need to approach financial discussions differently than men, focusing on connection and understanding. - Knowledge is power; educating oneself about finances is crucial when contemplating or going through a divorce. - Post-divorce is a pivotal moment for women to reassess their financial goals and take charge of their financial lives.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, I think that what oftentimes happens with money, especially
in relationships we're talking about a husband wife scenario, that yeah,
there's this natural division of labor. Right, we don't all
do the same chores and equal measures across the household.
We basically carve them up. However that comes about, It
comes about oftentimes just unsaid. We naturally gravitate towards certain

(00:22):
things and the household, and money becomes one of them.
And money can be We can look at money on
two levels. One is sort of the day to day spending,
so the wallet or the purse, and then you have
the big picture items such as investments and taxes and
insurance and those types of things. And so what tends
to happen very naturally is that women naturally gravitate towards

(00:44):
the purse, the day to day spending, and the husband
tends to gravitate towards the big picture items like investments
and insurance and otherwise, and it just becomes one other chore,
one other task to be done in the household. You
don't talk about it, you don't you don't sit down
and talk each week about like, hey, here's what the

(01:04):
grass is going to look like. Or here's how we're
going to handle these other chores. You don't have conversations
around them, and we don't have conversations around money either.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Hey, there, and welcome to Money and You.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
I'm Michelle Perkins.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Your host. My search for more fulfilling work led me
to career in business coaching, where I stumbled upon a
game changing discovery. Money issues often start with our mindset
and habits.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
You see, our.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Relationship with money is the key to overcoming those frustrating
financial obstacles. As an entrepreneur, coach, and problem solver, I'm
passionate about helping you create a great relationship with money,
because turns out that's the foundation for a limit free life.
Each week on Money in You, I speak with amazing
guests about all things money, mindset, practical tips, and everything

(01:51):
in between. We're here to give you new insights, education
and empowerment. So money can be one of your favorite relationships.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
So join us for some lively.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Comment conversations and let's transform your financial life together. Hello, Hello,
and welcome to another episode of Money in You show.
I'm so happy that I'm so happy to be here.
I'm so happy that you're here, and I hope you've
been listening to the podcast. There's such a variety of
financial education and different topics on the Money and You Show,

(02:23):
and I feel like it's becoming an exciting platform where
you can just get a very good, comprehensive, sort of
overriding education in many financial areas, and then whatever interests you,
whatever strikes you, or whatever you need, you can go
and further, you know, dig in in other ways, whether

(02:45):
that's talking to me, or talking to the guests that
I am presenting, or just doing your own self study.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
So it's great to keep learning.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
About money, and that's what Money in You is all about.
And with that, I have a fantastic guest today. Have
been so thrilled with the guests that are coming on
the show. They are so smart and so insightful, and
so interesting and truly heartfelt. That's one of the things
that I've realized about. All the guests that are being
attracted into the show for some reason are truly people

(03:16):
trying to help people and really do this work from
their hearts. So I think that's not necessarily the entire
financial industry.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
So I'm very.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Happy that people like our guests today are doing work
in that manner, So I'm going to introduce you to today's guests.
Ed Vargo Ed is the co founder and president of
Burning River Advisory Group and enlighten Her, a community devoted
to money mentorship for women with more than twenty four

(03:45):
years of experience in the financial services industry. Ed strives
to help women develop a long term financial plan for
every stage of life, including retirement planning, college planning, and
transitioning successfully in the case of death or Ed's passion
for helping women with their finances stems from his family life.
His mother, an immigrant from South Korea, had four children

(04:08):
with his father. After getting a divorce, she lost custody
of her children due to her inability to support her
family financially. Her unfortunate lack of financial literacy fueled Ed's
passion to help women become empowered so they can move
through divorce confidently and without fear of.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
Losing their home or children.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Ed is married and has five daughters, ages nineteen to
twenty four, who's raised to be financially empowered young women.
As a family, they enjoy hiking, theater, movies, and travel.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Ed Welcome, Thanks for having me, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Thanks for being here. I'm very excited about what you're
doing and the reason behind it. I think the why
behind what people do is so important to talk about,
and really, I think it is just an important factor,
even when you're hiring a professional, to know why they
got into this and why they're doing what they do,
because I think that really speaks to their their values

(05:01):
and their dedication to what they're doing. So I really
admire what you have going on here. So why didn't you?
I mean, I've told a little of your story, but
do you want to elaborate a little on kind of
what you picked up on from growing up in your family?

Speaker 1 (05:19):
Sure? Well, the thing about my mother situation was, I
guess it's our situation, not my mother's situation, but particularly
from her lens, is it took me a long time
to really realize what that must have been like for her.
You know, as a kid, I think my parents got
divorced when I was nine or ten ish in that timeframe,
and it's one thing to look at the world from

(05:40):
that lens. You know, my mother in essence left the
household and then my dad raised us, But I had
no idea the real story behind that, like how it
got to that point and so it was many, many
years later I was probably, I believe, in college or
even beyond that, when I first really knew the story
about how that all transpired, and how my mom's lack

(06:01):
of financial knowledge and understanding of the divorce and legal system.
Certainly there was a language barrier. She never read the language,
didn't write the language, and so at the end of
the day, she was at a major disadvantage when it
came to that divorce process. And little did I know
when I got to my professional career doing the work
that I'm doing today, how meaningful and impactful that would

(06:23):
that experience would have on my life today. Because when
I go into a situation, particularly for divorce, and we
work mostly with women and entirely with women on the
divorce side, I go in with that lens. I go
in with that understanding of just how bad it could
be if you're not prepared and ready to fight and
do what you need to do. And my mom's lack

(06:43):
of knowledge and understanding, and certainly there was a cultural
barrier there. I mean, she thought she was doing the
best things for her kids, very defferentially, but I could
only imagine what that must have been like for her
a mother to say, you know, to anyone here, you
can have custoy of my children because I think it's
the best thing for them.

Speaker 3 (07:01):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah that As a mom, I yeah, I can feel
the the angst that must have occurred for her. So
but okay, so from there, what was her journey? Did
she end up learning more on her own about finances

(07:22):
just out of curiosity?

Speaker 1 (07:24):
No? No, unfortunately not. That's still that language barrier that's
there again. She's she hasn't been able to read or
write the language. I look at my mom and I'm
a bit of a marvel because she's been able to
survive and get by, and she has a pretty good
existence today. She's remarried for probably the past twenty five years.
But from the money side, I mean she has some

(07:44):
understanding of it, but not really like the like what
I would like my girls to have. So I have
my eighty five daughters. As I mentioned, I look at
like the best of times and worst of times. I
hope my girls can embody the best of times when
it comes to being money conscious, saying money savvy, because
I look at my mom's situations as being the worst

(08:06):
of time. So those are the parallel paths that we're
trying to walk down and using and learning from both.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Quite frankly, yeah, yeah, it's really it's a it's very
interesting if you look at it that way, from sort
of one extreme to probably the opposite extreme, which is
what you're trying to create for them. So, in thinking
about your girls, what you know from the when did
you start helping them with money? What's the right age

(08:32):
that you found, and also what's the goal, like how
how much do you want them to know? And what
are you asking them? How are you asking them to
learn it? Is it coming from you or you know,
what's what's the process for this?

Speaker 1 (08:48):
Sure? I think the learning process starts immediately. When I
see immediately, I don't mean you're you're sitting down with
the toddler and infant talking about money, But it's how
you model your behavior and how you model money. Your
conversations around money matter, and those start from the earliest stages.
So we didn't go into you know, raising our kids

(09:09):
with the idea, oh, they're going to be financially savvy
and literate and we're going to start them learning all
these these formulas and all this financial stuff. That was
way beyond it. We were surviving. We had five girls
under the eight, six and a half in under right,
so every day was a fight, you know, to first survival,
making sure they weren't killing themselves or running off and

(09:30):
doing things. But the money side of that equation really
was how do you talk about money? How do you
engage with money? We didn't hide the money conversations at
a household, and we were certainly conscious about certain areas
that maybe we didn't want to talk about, but for
the most part, we were open. If we couldn't afford something,
we said we couldn't afford it, it just die away
from that, we didn't look at money as it having

(09:51):
power over us. We wanted to always talk about money
in a positive way, or at least a neutral way,
because I grew up in a household where money was
talked about very negatively. My father was very bad with money,
just one of those things, and you always engage with
money in an incredibly negative way. So people who had
money were bad people. They were just money hungry, and

(10:13):
that made him feel better because he didn't have money.
He wasn't good with money, right, So the relationship his
relationship with money was very poor, and it never changed
because he never changed the way he engaged with money,
and so with my kids, I wanted to at least
start with it as a neutral and then helped him
understand that we can turn this into a very positive thing.
Money can enhance and amplify great things in your life,

(10:35):
but could also amplify and enhance bad things in your life.
So that money modeling and talking about it started very early.
And then what I really thought, you know, as a
financial advisor, of course, I'm always thinking about the long
term and just knowing that the power of compound interest, right,
And I didn't send him down at eight years old

(10:56):
and say here's the power of compound interest. But I
did it six Yeah, I did at sixteen. I know
said that quote from Albert Einstein, the most powerful force
in the universe's compound interest. We went through a few
numbers just to give them some idea what that looked like,
but most of the time it was just my wife
and I talking about money in a positive way or

(11:19):
again given boundaries. They needed to have boundaries and to
understand that just because you have money doesn't mean you
could just spend it free wheeling. And my trajectory with
money is probably like most. I certainly have more resources
today than when I started, So we were really poor. Really,
I maybe really poor, but we didn't have much money
with raising all those kids in starting a business, and

(11:42):
as the business grew and the you know, I got
further along, we've kind of come out on the other
side to where we have more resources today. So just
helping them understand and navigate how to engage with money
in a positive way and not today not being spoiled
by money, whereas before it was a matter of survival,
I guess.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, yeah, that's beautifully said. And I find it very
interesting that really one of the foundational things that you
were sharing with your daughters was really a mindset thing.
It wasn't some practical money tip necessary. I mean, the
compound interest information came later, and that was But what

(12:21):
you were really doing was setting them up to have
either a positive or neutral feeling about money. And I
think that is so to me, that's so fascinating because
I went through school and were just learning about, you know,
just understand how to manage money, and there you go,
you'll be fine. But that's not the story. The story is,

(12:42):
first you have to have this positive outlook around money
and abundance in general, and then the practical tips will
help you get there. But without that, you know, I
think you really can take a lot of wrong roads.
So I think it's it was sound sort of instinctual
on your part that that's what you started with from

(13:04):
your background, but you know, on a conscious level, that's
a really important if you do nothing else for your kids,
I think that's a very very important assist when it
comes to money.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
That's absolutely true. Think about when you're a parent. I
think most parents try to instill certain values in their children,
and that's not a tangible thing. Values aren't tangible. They're
very much intangible. And we tend to think about money
in a very tangible way because on one hand, it
is very tangible, but to your point, in many ways,

(13:38):
it's very much an intangible our money mindset, how we
think about money, engage with it those I think of
it almost as a value system. And in fact, what
we've done purposely is tied values in money together. And
so I about the first person, of course to talk
about it in this way. But the idea that our money,
we have a finite amount of money, and we have

(14:00):
to be careful about our choices. And therefore, if we're
doing this the right way, the quote unquote right way,
we would want our money, our spending of money, to
align with the things that we value most. And so,
as an example, vacations or spending time together that would

(14:20):
be one of the things we value experiences over things.
So we haven't been like a thing heavy family. The
kids don't have the latest and greatest iPhones. We're not
buying a bunch of new cars. Their cars are pretty ragged,
quite frankly, very purposefully so, but what we do is
go on reasonably nice vacations, We do a lot of
fun things. We spend a lot of time together. So

(14:42):
again I'm showing them and modeling. Hey, I'm willing to
spend a significant amount of my resources on these things
that we do together that we can create these memories
and hopefully last a lifetime versus putting into this thing
over here which is going to have a limited shelf
life and we'll probably forget it, you know, a couple
of weeks after it it's gone. And so I think
that's so important. But that's a whole mindset thing. It

(15:04):
has nothing to do with what you think a traditional
financial advisor might talk about. It really is about mindset
and behaviors, and I find that to be the biggest
barrier when it comes to people doing well financially. It's
not that they don't know, because a lot of people
do know. I can't exhibit the right behaviors. But even
if you don't know, it's pretty easy to teach that

(15:25):
stuff to others, but it's really hard to get the
compliance to get people to follow.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
And that's that's the case with almost everything, whether it's
eating or you know, playing better tennis. I mean, it's
it's it's a really interesting look at our habits and
our behaviors and what we want. And we say a
lot of you know people, everybody's saying I want more money, and.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
But what are they doing? You know?

Speaker 2 (15:51):
So there's this and I think that goes back to
mindset too, because the mindset isn't set up properly that
you actually move into action. So I mean, a great
mindset should lead you toward the right action and allow
you to execute on that action. So I feel like

(16:12):
this is just a fascinating way to reframe the whole
money conversation, which I think is super important because I
do think your dad wasn't unusual. He was probably in
the majority of how people think about money. I mean,
it's just and most of that just stems from fear,
you know, and any of us. I can go down

(16:34):
that fear road as easily as anybody else if I
start thinking certain thoughts about what might be coming or
what might be happening in the world or in my
own family, you know.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
So it's very easy to do that.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
But the awareness of it, I think is what is
the most important thing, because once you catch yourself doing it,
knowing how to rework those thoughts is pretty huge as well.
And I love what you're saying about the value is
because you're also not saying don't spend. I mean you're
saying spend, spend on the things that you value. And

(17:07):
I think that's another important point, because there's so many.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
Beliefs out there, and some of them are the only.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Way for me to get ahead in my particular profession
or whatever, is just to save my whole life and
enjoy life, you know, when I retire, which I personally
don't agree with, but so I just love the fact
that you're focusing on these mindset things. So with that

(17:36):
that is the foundational piece. I do want to move
into some of the practical things, especially for women who
you know. The other thing you brought up that I
think is really interesting is having five kids, and especially
under a certain age, and knowing how precious time is.
There's very little time that somebody can you know, imagine

(17:59):
a mom with five kids trying to also educate herself
financially or take on the family's financial you know, management
that oftentimes just doesn't happen just because people are busy,
so they turn it over to you know, a husband
or whatever. So how would you generally advise people to

(18:20):
balance that out?

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, I think that what oftentimes happens with money, especially
in relationships. You're talking about a husband wife scenario that Yeah,
there's this natural division of labor, right, we don't all
do the same chores and equal measures across the household.
We basically calm them up. However that comes about, It
comes about oftentimes just unsaid. We naturally gravitate towards certain

(18:45):
things in the household, and money becomes one of them.
And money can be We can look at money on
two levels. One is sort of the day to day spending,
So the wallet or the purse, and then you have
the big picture items such as investments and taxes and
insurance and those types of things. And so what tends
to happen very naturally is that women naturally gravitate towards

(19:07):
the purse, the day to day spending, and the husband
tends to gravitate towards the big picture items like investments
and insurance and otherwise, and it just becomes one other chore,
one other task to be done in the household, and
they don't talk about it. You don't. You don't sit
down and talk each week about like, hey, here's what

(19:27):
the grass is going to look like, or here's how
we're going to handle these other chores. You don't have
conversations around them. And we don't have conversations around money either.
That is a mistake. I think that's a very large
mistake because money isn't the same as any other task.
And then what we're talking about with particularly on the
enlighten Her side, which is our sister company, it really

(19:48):
is about enlighten Hers, a women's first financial education company.
It is really getting women to get women to help
knock down the barriers that exist between women and their money.
When they're understanding of money and embracing of money and
understanding that knowledge and power around money or knowledge gives

(20:08):
you a power when it comes to money. But it's
not a nice to do, it's a must do. I
think it's a survival skill. And we go back to
that mindset again. But it really if we think of
as money in our engagement with money as a nice
to do, I'll do it occasionally, or my husband will
handle it for me, then you're really putting yourself at
a major disadvantage. So I think the first step is

(20:31):
to treat it very differently. I think women need to
come to the table in just saying I need to
be a part of the money conversation, the big picture
conversation because and not that you should only do this
because of what could happen. Meaning we do a lot
of work with divorces, a lot of work with widows,
and in those cases it's very obvious where not having

(20:53):
knowledge around the money really shows itself. I mean that's
crisis mode, especially in a divorce case where you're at
a major disadvantage because your you need to really argue
and make a case for why you deserve what you
think you deserve, and if you don't know what you have,
if you don't know how money works, it's really hard
to go in and be confident about what you're saying.

(21:16):
And so I think that this idea of when it
comes to money and engaging with money, we really do
women do need to really elevate it and think of
it as a survival skill, something that's super important that
it's not a nice to do, and then go find
the resources to help you because, as you've stated, it's
you know, it's time consuming, right, Like you can go

(21:37):
on the internet and type in financial planning for women
or financial literacy for women, you get, you know, hundreds
of thousands of hits and then you just shut down
because it's overwhelming. I think, Yeah, I think a great
thing to do is to try and find a couple
of trusted resources. Start small. You don't have to start big,
you don't have to learn all these things overnight. Just
start really small, find a couple of trusted sources that

(21:59):
in your feels right okay, and then you can once
Because what I found with women and money is and
I head a client, tell me this. We did some
research and asking some of our client base, like you
know why, why did you choose to work with us?
What did you think about money in the first place?
How do you engage with it? And she said that
we can find competence when it comes to money talking

(22:22):
about working with other advisors or the industry as a whole,
but we're having really difficult finding a connection. And it's
very different. Men don't say that, and the guys aren't
saying I want a connection with my financial advisor. Never happens,
But for women it's paramount and so that that gut instinct,

(22:42):
that idea I feel comfortable and I feel like connected
to this person, I think is really important for women.
And then you can go deeper to find out does
that person how much does that person really know? And
obviously it's a it's a continuum, it's a process that
you have to work through. You can't just have a
connection and talk to somebody who don't know what they're
talking about. But I think I think it starts with

(23:04):
the connection side, getting educated at a low level, and
then continuing to ratchet that up over time.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah, I love that. I think that's interesting. I also
think that while men aren't saying it, they also want it.
They just aren't necessarily in tune with that, you know.
I do think they work better or enjoy working with
financial people who they do have a connection with that
they just I think women off off the bat sort

(23:34):
of instinctively have a I'm connecting with this person or
I'm not, And when they're not, I think, you know something,
and some alarm bells go off and they feel like,
you know, maybe I won't be able to ask this
person questions when I want to, or feel like they're
they've got you know, they're they're treating me as well
as they treat other clients.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Whatever it is.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
I think it's it's an innate thing, but I think
it's a really interesting point. And and the other thing
I'm curious about is, you know, because you're seeing both groups,
what kind of differences are you seeing in the way
men come into the office and the way women come in.

(24:15):
I mean, I think women are typically more open about
what they don't know, whereas men don't really want to
walk in and go, wow, I don't know anything about money.
You know, that's not necessarily something a man wants to say.
But what are you hearing and what are some you know,
men have the same issues in many cases they either
don't know much about money, or haven't done the investing

(24:37):
that they wish they'd done, or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yeah, so this ties in with my earlier point about
having a connection. And you're right, men do want a
connection with their advisor, but it's different. So I'll give
you an example. And this is why this will touch
in why the financial services industry historically doesn't work well
with one. I mean, I think there's these polls that

(25:01):
have come out that women feel more comfortable with their
use car salesman than they did working with the financial advisor.
I don't if that's still true today, but it was
true not that long ago. And the reason is when
when a guy comes in and talks money, what tends
to happen. Again, we're stereotyping here, but it's pretty true.

(25:22):
When guys come in, they're very tangible when they talk
about money. They want to talk about the investment strategy,
the philosophy, what are the benchmarx that you're using, What
rate of return can I expect? They're talking about the data,
the numbers, And if I talk about data in numbers
and in that way, we're definitely going to have a connection.
So they want to be connected, but what we connect

(25:42):
around is very masculine and a very male waale of
thinking when it comes to money. If I took that
same approach with women, there would be no connection because
women don't come in talking about the things I just mentioned.
When women come in and talk about it, say like,
I need a plan. I want to make sure I'm
doing the right things. I want to be able to

(26:03):
not have to work forever. I don't really like this
money stuff, but I want to be smart about it.
But they don't care about all the charts, the graphs,
all the percentages. They're not looking at comparative analysis between
the benchmark. That just it's whatever is what will this
money do for me? Versus how much money do I have?

(26:23):
And it's just neither way is wrong. They're both trying
to solve a similar problem because both want to be
financially smart. Neither side wants to work forever, neither side
wants to be doesn't want to be financially independent. But
the lens from which they view the world is so different.
And that's part of the issue with the financial services

(26:44):
industry as a whole. It's a male dominated industry, not
a bad industry. It's a very successful industry. The language
of money is very masculine. Why is that not because
the industry is misogynistic. It just grew up because that's
who had the money, right, Men were the ones who
had the economic power. In the early stages, the industry

(27:04):
grew up where it was men talking to other men,
and of course that worked really well, and it worked
extremely well until women started coming into the fold and
gaining their economic power. So these men wanted to go
out and serve the female market using the same tools
that were so successful with men. And it's fallen flat
and it continues to fall flat, and so that is

(27:25):
something that's not going to change quickly. Well, you can't
change the language of money. It is what it is.
You can change how you the way you speak about money.
So as an advisor, we speak about money very differently
to where mostly we work mostly with women. So it's
in a we've built our whole practice for the way
women think and engage with money, but we do have

(27:48):
to come at it from a different lens. It's like
we may not be able to come in through the
traditional front door, we may come through the side door,
and still trying to instill the same Do you have
the same goals and objectives but a completely different way
of reaching going about it.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Yeah, that was a great answer.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
I can really see so much of what you were describing,
and it's really interesting. It's it's a great take on
how the business can serve both parties. And as you
were explaining it, I'm thinking, well, really, women should be
asking some of these questions. They should have the education

(28:26):
to be able to use these financial terms and ask
these questions as well, and men should probably be able
to put it a little more into the feeling zone
because really, you know, they're wondering when they're going to
get to you know, get out of the rat race
or whatever it is.

Speaker 3 (28:42):
That they're wanting.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
So, but to ask it in a way that is
it's an emotional thing, it's not it's much less a
financial question than it is an emotional question. But you know,
who knows how well they're processing, you know, putting those
two together after they get the data from you.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
But I think it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, I mean, I think that this should fall on
the side of the professional. At the end of the day,
it's my job to find the right way to communicate
with a person across from my desk, and that really
does should fall on the professional. But there's something that's
not working. I think part of the reason is there's
twofold one is it doesn't have to The industry is

(29:25):
doing just fine the way it is right now. Right.
If it's not broken, don't fix it. I remember distinctly
this is an interesting thing that it was probably fifteen
years now. I was at some executive coaching training and
so it was a room of probably forty people, and
he had to pay reasonable sum to get into the room.
You had to have certain credentials to get into the room. Right,

(29:46):
So we're all there talking about this is and I
was just at the point I was beta testing this
idea of because we had organically grown our female client base.
We weren't like we didn't set out to do it.
We organ grew it that way. And that was I
was like, I did some research engineering the practice and
realize we have all these women clients, and like we're

(30:08):
obviously what we're doing without trying is resonating with women.
And so I was making trying to decide should we
just go full force and just say look put out
there that we work predominantly with women, and we're going
to alien half the men. Pretty scary thing when and
the men had most of the money. Long story shirt.
I was at this executive coach and we had to

(30:28):
go up and give this little, this little two minute
speech about your business. And I said that we work.
I don't know if I said exclusively or predominantly with women,
YadA YadA, and I kid you not. I had a
dozen people come up to me afterward, which is very
unusual to have anybody come up to you and to
a person, these are all very successful advisors, made many

(30:50):
way more successful than me, and it was the same cadence.
It was like, are you really going to do that?
And the first time they asked me, the first guy
that asked me that, I was taken aback. I thought like, wow,
that's a very bold question to ask. He's like, are
you really going to do that? I said yeah. He's like,
I think that's great, which was right, which I was surprised.

(31:10):
I thought he was going to knock the idea. And
then the third part of this was I could never
do it. I couldn't tell you how many people said
the exact same thing, are you really going to do that.
I think it's a great idea. I could never do it.
And so from that moment I was like, Okay, no,
no more doubts. I'm doing this full head of them. Yeah,
and that touches on this. So these were very successful

(31:33):
advisors who were really good at their craft, but they
were saying that, look, I'm doing what I'm doing, it's
working really well. I don't want to go over there
and do that. And I think that's what you have today.
You have a lot of successful advisors doing really good
work working with men the traditional way. Nothing negative about
that at all, but they're not interested in adapting and

(31:55):
changing their practice in a way that would attract more women.
So when I say it falls on the advisor to
change their conversations. Sure, they're not alienating the women in
their audience. I don't think they're purposely talking in a
way that's repelling them, but they're certainly not speaking in
a way that attracks them. And so so that's one side.
There's not a whole there's a lot of like, we

(32:17):
should go serve this market because it's a really big market.
They're going to inherit a tounch of money. I get
this stuff all the time, right, A lot of reasons
why we should go do this, and yet the will
to do it is not there because they don't need to.
The second part is, though you said it and I
agree that women are capable of asking the right questions,

(32:38):
They are capable of learning these things, and I just
I think we need more women to raise their hands
and speak up and say this is important to me.
It's not okay to turn it over to somebody else
in my life. It's not okay to be busy with
life and neglect this area. It's really or that women
demand more from maybe them and certainly of the industry.

(33:01):
And I think that combination would be a powerful enough
combination to actually move the dial a bit.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, thank you. Wonderful, wonderful explanation. And you know you're
making me think too, because while you know, we're talking
about women as if you know they know so little
about money. I know plenty of women breadwinners. You know,
they're the one making the most money in the family,
but that doesn't necessarily put them in a position of

(33:29):
knowing what to do in terms of planning and retirement
and all of that as well. So it's not it
doesn't come down to who's making the money in the family.
I mean, that's a feature for sure, but it doesn't
solve the problem that you're talking about. I don't think.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
No. And that's even more so true, more true, more
so today than ever before, when women are the primary
breadwinner and for some reason they're still perfectly okay with
the husband taking over the the big money decisions. And
again I think part of it is just, look, it's
a division of labor. We have this relationship, this partnership
which working just fine. He likes this stuff more than

(34:10):
I do, maybe he has more time, whatever the case
may be. But there's an easy, natural reason to just say,
you know, I don't want to deal with this stuff.
There's another side, which we don't have enough time to
get into this. But from a behavioral finance side, women
do have a tendency, and this is the psychological studies
on this, is that women have a tendency to gravitate

(34:30):
towards people, and men have a tendency to gravitate towards things,
and so money is a thing, and so naturally, sort
of biologically and ultimately behaviorally, women are much more easy, readily,
will readily turn over a money decision or the managing
of money because it's a thing and they don't connect

(34:50):
as well with it. And the guy's raising his hand
because on average, he's more comfortable with it. Now, there's
no intellectual reason for that to be the case. Yeah,
So I see this with guys a lot of times.
They'll be like, well, I should know this, and they're
talking about money, and I'm like, well, why would you
know this. You don't have some genes, some finance gems
that says you should know this stuff, but they think

(35:12):
they should. Yeah. I think that's that natural sort of
gravitation towards things, and women tend to be a little
less I guess hard on themselves in that regard. There's
a lot of factors going into why it's easy for
women to and all of these aren't like nefarious, bad things,
easy to fall into. These sort of trap so to speak,

(35:34):
if you want to call them that. We're trying to
bring awareness and say, look, you can do that in
so many different areas. You could do that with the wallet,
but the day to day spending, you can absolutely do that.
Turn it over to one party or the other, and
that's not going to blow up your financial life if
something bad happens. But the big picture stuff you've got
to know about, long term savings, you have to know

(35:54):
about at least on some level, your tax situation. You
don't have to be an expert in it, just be
aware know where your money going. Those are the key
pieces that you can't just delegate to somebody else. And
if you delegate it to someone else, you need to
have regular check ins. Right, So we do a lot
of hands on work for our clients. They do delegate
a lot of the stuff that I just mentioned, the

(36:15):
big picture stuff, but you don't just delegate and never
talk about it for you know, five years. Yeah, all
the time, we're going through it regularly. I'm giving them reports,
looking at the numbers. I mean, the average you know,
husband and wife. They're not doing that. They're not sitting
down quarterly to do a cap over what happened in
their financial life in the last three months. But it

(36:38):
is something along those lines would be helpful.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Yeah, yeah, I love that suggestion. And yeah, you brought
up something that I owed.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Money being a thing and when I started working with
people and coaching them around money, the biggest shift I
could find that would be a motivator to spend time
is to not think about it as a thing, which
I think is how we've all been thinking about it,
but to think about it as a relationship. And then

(37:07):
if you shift and your money is something that you're
in relationship with, you know, if you treat it that way,
you need to pay attention to it, and you need
to get to know it, and you need to check
in and see what's going on, because that's what you
do in relationships you don't so I found that to
almost give people to allow them to think about it

(37:28):
in these ways and maybe have it be a little
more motivating. This is fascinating. I'm really excited that you're
sharing everything you're sharing right now.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
I do want to.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Talk a little about the pre and post divorce situations
that you're finding people in and maybe how to And
I know there's not enough time for this topic either,
but can you get into a little bit of how
you're helping women you know who are either thinking about
divorce to know what to think about with their money,

(38:01):
what to what to know, and and then what's the
difference between that and post divorce.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
I keep asking double questions.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
I'm sorry, that's okay, okay, Well on the pre side,
I think that in all of all the places disciplines,
that the divorce arena is unique. And it's unique because
it's combining three separate items, if you so to speak,
three like a three legged stool. You have the financial side,

(38:29):
you have the legal side, and then you have the
emotional side. All three three come into play in a
dramatic way when it comes to divorce, and I don't
know of anything else that's really like that and has
this antagonistic side oftentimes with it, so you're like battling
someone out. So the stakes are really high when it

(38:50):
comes to divorce and getting you just you know, when
you're when you're going and preparing for divorce or considering
even the possibility of divorce, you just gotta you got
to think about it, like I need to really learn
about this. I need to know all there is about
this this thing called divorce and spend time and then
when you do it at the early stages of divorce.

(39:11):
I always recommend do it as early as possible, right,
Not that I think some people feel like if oh,
if I start learning about divorce, I'm giving up on
my marriage or I'm going to be more likely to
get divorced if I learn about this stuff. I mean,
that's not really true, right, you're just educating yourself and
starting to get a sense of what's real and what's

(39:32):
a fabrication or a misconception. Because there's so many misconceptions
around divorce. People get snippets of information to get it
from TV. Nothing in TV is really like the real thing.
Not when it comes to divorce. They talk to their friends.
But everyone's divorce is different, Like moms will say every pregnance,
every pregnancy is different, and they get that every divorce

(39:54):
is different, and so.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
Every eight is different.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Right.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
The states have different rules.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah, absolutely true. Not only of the states have differences,
but even the county. So it's getting that granular, and
most people don't really understand either that either. So county
not just to state, but the county can matter a lot.
So the first step is just to get educated about
what is this thing called divorce. There's multiple ways to
end your marriage. Divorce is an actual legal term. It's

(40:22):
colloquially known as like encompasses all forms of ending a marriage,
but it's of a specific legal term. Divorce litigating going
to court, but you could go through a disillusion and
have it done that way. So there's a lot of
different ways to end your marriage, and you need to
know what those options are.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Right.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
So it really is, and it sounds so simple, It
sounds so obvious when you're contemplating this is to learn
about it. But I can't tell you how many people
come to me and are like, I have no idea
where to go but to do. They're overwhelmed. It's like
talk about I'm going to talk about women who initiate
the divorce, because I think the statistics are overwhelming that
women overwhelmingly initiate divorce more so than men do. So

(41:05):
it's getting knowledge, find the right team. If I could
in a nutshell, I'd say, do your own research, get knowledgeable,
find some resources that you connect with, and then put
together your divorce team. Your divorce team should consist of professionals,
like a family law attorney. The most important hire you'll
have is probably that family law attorney, a financial advisor

(41:28):
who's trained in divorce, like a CDFACE or Defy divorce
financial analyst. I don't think that every person needs a CDFA,
but I think a lot could benefit from it. And
then you're anything neat a professional for your mental health,
so therapist or divorce coach, even clergy can help you
with that. So put that team together that's on the

(41:49):
professional side and build your personal team. So you want
to have You want somebody who's going to tell you
the truth, who's going to not just tell you what
you want to hear, who's gonna be honest with you
and you're not gonna like what you hear from that person,
but they're gonna be the lens and tell you really
what it's really like. You need to have one of
those people in your camp. You need someone who's gonna

(42:11):
support you no matter what. You need that girlfriend that's
gonna say or it doesn't be a girlfriend, male friend
who's gonna be there get your back no matter what.
You need that person as well, because you're gonna need
some emotional uplifting. And like, I think those two pieces
are really really important. You have one person you could
just talk to who probably won't won't like really comment,
They'll just let you get it out without trying to

(42:33):
undo the influence you. I think that's really really important.
And you probably have those people in your life. And
then then understand who not to have on your team
someone who is like always you know, riling you up right,
like they're always looking to pick a fight. I mean,
that person's got your back, but geez, they're just making
it worse. So you have to know those people who

(42:54):
are taking away sort of like taking away instead of
helping you. So that's all free stuff. It is. It's
a long, arduous process, so you have a lot of
time typically to figure these things out. Most divorce processes
from the moment you file or even step have that
first conversation can be a year. Usually it's multiple years.

(43:17):
But from the time you first think about divorce it's
probably and by the time you first think about it
to when you actually act, that's probably years going by
there as well. So yeah, it tends to be a continuum.
And if you walk down the path, you get knowledgeable
and it's okay, and then you step away, great, you
just became much more knowledgeable about it. You never needed it.

(43:39):
And I think, honestly, I think in some cases it's
in and maybe in many cases people start to see
what's how bad divorce really is, and they don't they
treat it with the respect that it deserves. Because I
think there is a tendency to think it's just going
to be an easy process. I'll just find someone else,
and you know, I don't think that great when it

(44:00):
comes to relationships.

Speaker 3 (44:01):
Yeah, wow, Ed, thank you.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
That's a lot and very very valuable information. I this
has gone so fast where we're about out of time
and I have about one hundred more questions. But I
really appreciate your insights. I really would love for you
to help people know how to contact you and get

(44:26):
more of this. I mean, what can you offer people
who have listened to this going Wow, I really want
to talk to him some more.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Yeah. As I mentioned, our sister company called enlighten Her,
So you can go to enlighten her dot com. We
have a ton of free resources there. We have some
guides that we just created. We're just building that company
up and getting information out, so that's a great way
to engage with us. Get the free guides, get in
our newsletter list. We're very respect We're a women's for
women first education company. That's what we primarily do.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Now.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
I have a wealth management business which is separate from that,
but it really allows me and allows my team to
go out and do good work in the field to
be more of an advocate for women. It's not a
profit maker motivator. It really is about helping educate women
to really engage with money, build that relationship with money
in the positive way, and then see where that takes you.

(45:20):
Because when you get control over your money so much,
so many positive things can happen from that. And it's
not like the more money I have, the happier I'm
going to be the idea. But the more control over
your money you are, I think there is a correlation
between satisfaction and confidence and being able to do and
move forward in your life. I think that's really really

(45:42):
worth working towards.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
I couldn't agree more. And to you know, speaking of the.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Wealth advisory part of what you do, I would think
most women you know and men, post divorce it's a
little bit of a you know, restart, so you know
you need a new plan for that as well with
however things fall out. So I would think that's a
perfect opportunity.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
Well, yeah, absolutely, what tends of happen on the wealth
management side. A lot of women do come to us
post divorce because they have the settlement and they're like, Okay,
what do I do now? I was planning for this
life with my husband and now things have changed and
they're really motivated. It's great about working with women at
that stage in life is that they've kind of gone

(46:26):
through fire, getting through this divorce around the other side,
and they're ready. They're ready to get on with life,
make it what they want to make it, and knowing
that money, their control over their money and the decision
making around money is the conduit to be able to
go do that. So it's a great We love working
with women who are in that mode, in that mindset.

(46:47):
We'd'd rather not be the case that they had to
go through a divorce to get there, but really it's
about change. They're ready to take action and that's always
empowering for us because I feel like we're not fighting
the client give an advice. We're in a position to
where we can really make meaningful change in their life,
and ultimately that's what we're trying to do. We're not

(47:07):
just trying to give financial advice. We're actually trying to
give life advice that has a financial lean that will
ultimately help them accomplish the things that they want to
get out of life. So it's less or it's at
least equally about life as it is about money.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
Well, that was a perfect way to wrap, So I'm
not even going to say anything else all of those.
Let you end with that. That's an amazing sentiment, really,
and that is the way people if they look at
it that way, it's empowering in itself to look at
it that way, and it kind of comforting as well.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
I mean, that's a very very nice way to.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
See the whole situation. So thank you so much for
your time. There's a lot more we could talk about it,
and I really hope that the listeners will get in
touch with you, enlighten her dot com and use your
resources and get to know you that way and your
work and yeah, just a lot of wonderful information today.

(48:08):
So thank you so much for your time and for
being here and sharing with us on the money and
you show and people. I'll put in the show notes
how to get in touch with you as well, LinkedIn
your website.

Speaker 4 (48:20):
Anything else, no thing you haven't covered, okay, yeah, all right, Well,
thank you and thank you listeners for being listening to
the podcast, and I hope you'll subscribe to the podcast
for allow the podcast and leave us a review and.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
A rating if you are so inclined and definitely shared
this show with your friends. This is one that I think,
I bet everybody listening can think of at least one
person who would benefit from listening to this show, So
please share and we will see you next week. Schol