Ep. 195: Mapping Retirement Strategies in the Modern World

In a recent episode of the "Money & You" podcast, host Michelle Perkins engaged in a rich discussion with Jonathan Grimm, a licensed financial advisor and author of "The Future Poor." You can listen to a previous episode with Jonathan Grimm as well (ep. # 150).

In “The Future Poor,” Jonathan Grimm explores the flaws in the American financial system and challenges conventional wisdom about retirement, suggesting that the traditional goal of retirement may not be beneficial for many individuals in today’s world..

The conversation focused on the evolving landscape of financial planning, particularly the concept of retirement and its relevance in today's economy. Grimm emphasized that traditional retirement advice may no longer be viable, as many individuals will face difficult conversations with their financial advisors about the inadequacy of their retirement plans in the coming years.

The episode highlighted the need for a shift in mindset regarding work and financial planning, advocating for a transition from "meaningless labor" to "meaningful work." Grimm pointed out that older adults often report higher job satisfaction, suggesting that continued engagement in work can be beneficial for health and well-being. The discussion also touched on the complexities of financial tools, such as life insurance, and the importance of understanding their potential benefits.

Grimm discusses various financial tools such as life insurance, 401ks, and Roth IRAs. He emphasizes that these tools can be utilized in multiple ways to achieve better financial outcomes, rather than adhering to conventional uses that may not serve individuals' best interests. 

This conversation is significant as it challenges conventional financial wisdom and encourages listeners to rethink their relationship with money and work, fostering a more empowered approach to financial planning. 

00:01 - Mindset and money connection 
06:23 - Rethinking retirement conversations 
11:30 - Economic bubbles and retirement 
19:23 - Meaningful work over retirement 
25:35 - Financial tools for better living 
36:00 - Understanding life insurance value 
41:51 - Investing within life insurance 

Key Takeaways:   

The traditional retirement model may not be sustainable for future generations, and alternative strategies should be considered. -

Understanding economic trends and financial tools can empower individuals to make informed decisions about their financial futures. -

Engaging in meaningful work can lead to greater job satisfaction and overall well-being,   challenging the notion of retirement as an endpoint. -

Financial education and community support are crucial for navigating the complexities of personal finance. 

Jonathan Grimm can be reached at thefuturepoor.com and offers a free life insurance review for anyone considering life insurance, but unsure about the one they are about to purchase. 


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
And what other tools are you putting together to kind
of make a full, robust life as well as how
are you building a life financially that will sort of
adapt to the different challenges or things like that. And
it's actually a pretty easy conversation, Like I asked people.
I was at a book signing event and I asked,

(00:21):
you know, if your house burns down like mine did,
do you want a four to oh one K or
do you want homeowners or renters insurance? It's like a
four oh on K is the wrong tool for that
life job. And you know, life has a bunch of
different jobs, and we've kind of been lazy as an
industry just saying well, just have more money.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hey there, and welcome to Money and You. I'm Michelle Perkins,
your host. My search for more fulfilling work led me
to career in business coaching, where I stumbled upon a
game changing discovery. Money issues often start with our mindset
and habits. You see, our relationship with money is the
key to overcoming those frustrating financial obstacles. As an entrepreneur, coach,

(01:02):
and problem solver, I'm passionate about helping you create a
great relationship with money because turns out that's the foundation
for a limit free life. Each week on Money and You,
I speak with amazing guests about all things money, mindset,
practical tips, and everything in between. We're here to give
you new insights, education, and empowerment, so money can be

(01:24):
one of your favorite relationships. So join us for some
lively conversations and let's transform your financial life together. Hello, Hello,
and welcome to another great episode of the Money and
You Show. I have a very special guest today. It's
Labor Day, and I appreciate you laboring on Labor Day.

(01:45):
Didn't be with me today, but Jonathan Grimm has been
with us before. He was with us back in November,
and I will put the episode number in the show
notes because it was a great show. He was getting
ready to launch a book called The Future Poor a
fantastic video on his website that kind of gives the
explanation to this the underneath of the title, and so

(02:10):
I'm super the book's been launched. A lot's happened since then,
and I'm very very happy to welcome Jonathan back. And
I'm going to tell you a little about him, but
we're going to mostly let him tell us about him.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
Jonathan Grimm is a licensed financial advisor in California. After
decades of training and working in operations and business management
for a wide range of Fortune five hundred companies, nonprofits,
and individuals, he's currently the only licensed advisor urging people
to find ways to not retire. His research into the

(02:44):
looming retirement crisis was sparked in part because of his
non traditional background in studying life's toughest questions. Jonathan earned
his bachelor's degree in moral philosophy and his master's in
theological studies. In the Future Poor, his latest book, he
describes how the deeper questions raised in his academic training

(03:04):
pushed him to question conventional wisdom and discover the deep
flaws in our American financial system. Once he documented those
holes in what millions of Americans think of as their
retirement safety net, he has spent years pursuing practical solutions
that involve our working together as families, congregations, and entire
communities toward a better future. Jonathan is the creator and

(03:27):
editor of The Grim News, a series of daily news
and commentary making sense of our global economy. From understanding
breaking news to lifting up untold stories, Jonathan knows will
help and sometimes amuse his readers. He's married to Amy
grimm LMFT, an award winning licensed marriage and family therapist.
They live near Pasadena with their three children and one

(03:48):
large dog, who sometimes makes cameos in his podcasts. For
more information, you can visit Jonathan's website, Thefuturepoor dot com
or his newest company, fern Bridge Advisors.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Hello, it's good to mink.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, great to have you back. I'm really really thrilled.
I know you're busy, You're speaking all over the place.
I've seen you on other podcasts. Got a little jealous,
decided to reach out. Eh, you are again.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
So well. I promised I would be back, but a
lot has happened since the last time. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
What you know, it's kind of a perfect metaphor for
just life in this whole retirement planning idea, because we
you know, I think the industry has told us, you know,
you put a certain amount of money away and you
plan and it just works out, and they really leave
out a lot of the life events that are going

(04:46):
to intersect with your retirement plan.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah. Yeah, that was I mean, that was one of
the big things. I was at a book lunch. I
was talking about how how this all started for me
in twenty nineteen of looking at They call it a
large confidence model, where when you're trying to be precise,
you're like, well we can't. We have options from zero
to one hundred, so we'll try and get you in

(05:10):
that range, and what we want is something more precise.
And so it's I was like, wait, where are we doing,
Like we're not precise at all, but life requires and
money requires a lot of precision. And that's where, especially
like in looking at retirement, it was like, well, just
have a lot of money and hope for the best.

(05:31):
And then that kind of gave birth to really exploring like, Okay,
what do people really need money for in the end,
And what we generally do is just go, well, you
just need income, So what are your expenses going to
be thirty years in the future. Okay, well that's what
your income is. And so it was sort of this
really odd approach and I realized everyone was kind of

(05:55):
doing it that same way. And even if you go
on too like chat GBT and ask for a return planned,
it'll give you the exact same, exact, same scenario, exact
same method. And I was like, but does this actually work,
and that's when I was like, I don't think it
really does. So and then it was like as an advisor,
I was like, Okay, I don't want to sit across

(06:16):
the table from clients in ten fifteen years and say, hey,
you know, all that stuff we did and planned for
it didn't work. So, because I think that's where a
lot of people are going to be in the next
ten to fifteen years. They're going to sit with their advisor,
and their advisor's going to have to be in that
scary spot of saying, hey, all that advice you paid
me for, all that stuff i'd planned for you, Yeah,

(06:39):
you can't actually do it because it didn't work. And
then that's going to be a really, really tough conversation
between advisors and clients over the next ten fifteen years.
So I didn't want to be in that spot. So
we had to do something different.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, and you know, you we've talked about this on
the last show, which was so interesting to me, and
You're movie that you did about the future poor was.
I just loved it. I watched it so many times,
but it really, you know, brought up the idea that
it did make sense at one point. I mean, it
wasn't foolish, it's just things have changed so much and

(07:15):
now we're looking at a future that's even more unknown
than we ever dreamed.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Really. Yeah, and I it's I was talking with someone
this week about how we're only like, we're like eight
months into this presidential term, not not four years like
it feels and so like in so yeah, so much
has happened in twenty twenty five that it's just it's
hard to even keep up sometimes, and it feels like

(07:43):
everything's changing and almost all of the almost all of
the things, whether they're the different laws passing or the
big beautiful bill, all these different things really have dramatic
impact on the people I'm most concerned with, which is
the middle class, and what it does to their economic
prospects as people like us age and we get and

(08:05):
how expensive the different things are, whether it's eggs or
gas or medical care in the future, all of it is,
all of it's going up, and all of our resources
are getting smaller. That's just not a good that's not
a good equation.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, and the job market is uncertain as well, you know, people,
I think people are very skittish about it at the moment,
and you know, it's legitimately, uh, kind of intense for
a lot of groups that haven't really felt you know,
I'm hearing that sort of middle management is going to

(08:41):
be kind of phased out, you know, as AI becomes better,
you know, and so there are a lot of people
who do make you know, maybe upper middle class earnings.
You may not have a lot of opportunity in that space.
So I don't want this to be like a big
down on our conversation, no, but you know, it's it's

(09:04):
something what I was thinking about you, and I was thinking,
you know, it can be very I mean, even the
name the future Poor, you know, that's that's kind of
a scary name. But the reality is things are happening
that feel out of our control. And basically I thought
with this book, you're flowing throwing a life preserver. So

(09:25):
it's not really depressing. It's like you're you're allowing people
to just sort of acknowledge the reality of things, which
I think with money we don't really like to do.
We like this denial. And that's what's kind of nice
about the old formula. You can just set it and
forget it, and it's supposed to work, you know, so
you can you can stay kind of in avoidance mode

(09:48):
and just leave it alone and forget about it. Not
so possible today, I think, if you want to get
it right.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, And one of the one of the things that
I've been working on is what's the what's the solution?
Because so it's easy, it's it's so easy just to say, hey,
there's a problem. And I didn't want to be that person,
you know. I have like one of my fondest memories
is I was complaining to my dad about something when

(10:17):
I was in high school and he was like, well,
what are you doing to help fix it? And I
was like, oh, yeah, good point, because it's it's it's
so easy just to throw to throw, you know, stones
at stuff and be like, hey, this doesn't work and complain,
but that oftentimes doesn't help. And so I really wanted

(10:37):
to figure out not only professionally, like what can I
actually do for clients that would actually benefit them, but
also within this situation that I realized just trying to
do the same thing was part of the problem, and
leading people towards the same goal of retirement was part

(10:58):
of the problem. And so what what do we replace
that with and it's really actually hard to have a
different vision for people than retirement because we like that
idea so much, And there's oftentimes a lot of cognitive
dissonance that pops up when I talk to people about, hey,
don't retire, it's actually not a good thing for you,

(11:19):
and they're like, so you just want me to slave
away until I die, And it's like, no, that's not it.
That's not it either. But there are completely different ways
of planning. And even as an advisor, in starting to
write this stuff and started to plan differently, Like once
I was able to get retirement out of the equation

(11:40):
and get that out of my mind as a goal,
it really opened up the world to ask, Okay, what
do people actually need? What do people actually need money for?
What are the right financial tools that actually do those
jobs better than other ones? I tell everyone like, you
can't paint a wall with a hammer, because and what

(12:02):
most people are ending up doing in life is they
end up to the job that requires painting and all
they have is a hammer because of the way the
industry has told them to save. And then they're like,
oh no, like this is terrible, and then they have
to try and figure out how to either exchange that
tool for a different tool, which usually there's a lot
of cost, or they have to just try and make

(12:22):
it work, which usually that doesn't do the right job.
And so that's where everything that we've built has been
around helping people understand you need a whole toolbox and
not just money, any money placed in different places, and
that's been part of the education piece, and then really rethinking, Okay,

(12:45):
what do people need money for their entire life? Seems
to boil down to everyone needs income. I don't care
how old you are, you need income. Everything kind of
starts there. You got to have access to money for
different things that pop up. You kind of got to
keep everything growing, which is oftentimes hard to do. And
you also got to take care of medical expenses, because

(13:05):
medical at least in America, continues to be one of
the number one costs associated with just being alive. And
we're the only Western country I think that has medical
debt and medical bankruptcies, and so it's just it's a
real thing that has to be taken care of for,
you know, for all of your life. And the recent
studies show that, like Fidelity I think did a study

(13:27):
that the average senior is going to spend about one
hundred and fifty k on medical expenses outside of what
they get from Medicare or Medicaid, and that doesn't include
any long term care related stuff. And so and then
that status seventy percent of people that make it to
sixty five are going to end up in a long
term services and support scenario or long term care scenario

(13:51):
that'll probably run between three and five years on average
to the two of about a half million dollars. And so,
how are people's portfolios equipped best to handle a half
million dollar medical expense in the future. And kind of
looked at it was like, well, almost nobody, So so
we should probably plan different and plan in a way

(14:11):
that takes into account that high probability aspect. And you know,
I always tell people, like, planning for your future medical
is not sexy. It's not as it's not as fun
as you know, a potential twenty five or fifty percent
return in the market, but it's way more valuable in
terms of what you actually need money for. So that's

(14:34):
what that's a little bit of just sort of where
I saw things were going and what we kind of
had to do that was different and then where we're
trying to go.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
Now, Yeah, that's really really important. I mean it's fantastic
work because it does. And you know, as you're talking,
I'm thinking, why isn't the industry as a whole recognizing
the same thing.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
I mean, what are they thinking?

Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's it's not the same and I you know, everything
about the world is different than when this really made sense.
So are they thinking about it is? Are you know,
where is it outside people making the changes and they're
staying put.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah. I I've spent a lot of time this year
studying economic bubbles, and I've been looking at retirement through
the lens of how economic bubbles work. Whether it's the
original one, which was the tulip bubble, I was derobably, like,
go google that one. That's a fun one. That was
the first sort of speculative economic bubble in like the

(15:35):
sixteen hundreds where people liked tulips. Yeah, so, and then
everyone went all in on tulips, and then the bottom
fell out and then they became worthless. So once they
realized they could make tulips really really easily and they
weren't as big of a commodity as they thought to
you know, dot Com and you know, the dot com
bubble and the housing crisis. Those are like the two

(15:56):
recent bubbles that most people are familiar with from this
time period. So when you study those, you realize there's
there's something that kind of happens where something comes on
the scene that's new. Economists call it displacement. I don't
really like the word displacement, but it essentially goes like, hey,
we can do something brand new, like retirement, and then

(16:18):
there's a boom phase where everyone gets like everyone gets
on that train. Yeah, like whether they're you know, zero interest,
you know, adjustable rate mortgages for people that have no
incomes and no jobs like we saw from you know,
two thousand to two thousand and eight or other. You know,
everyone's excited about pets, dot com and Enron, you know,

(16:39):
and then all that kind of falls apart. But then
what happens is we end up in a stage called euphoria,
which is like the middle stage of essentially these different
types of bubbles. So I think most people are in
that phase right now of like, there's a lot of
euphoria around retirement, and there's a lot every financial ad

(17:01):
that you see on TV is all about it retirement income,
retirement planning. You know, meet with us and we'll get
you there. Oh, you have a half million dollars save
for retirement. Awesome, meet with us will get you the
next you know, the next phase. And it's still all
part of sort of the cultural ethos that we have
right now around you know, got to have your retirement plan,

(17:22):
you know, are you doing your roth ira? Everything is
still so geared to that, and the industry knows how
to make money that way. And part of it is
the industries euphoria around the amount of money flooding the
market since retirement accounts became a thing made the market
relevant again for regular people. So fast forward to now

(17:44):
they don't have a different game to play, and so
they're still living in that space. But then in economic
bubble terms, you have what's known as the profit taking stage,
and that's when the people that were able to leverage
the boom and essentially I'm in a lot of ways
I'm thinking actually about Baby boomers in that they were
able to leverage this kind of economic time and then

(18:05):
actually able to exit and actually do it. And so
we're in we're sort of past that profit taking stage
to where the industry itself is trying to really figure
out how do we keep this machine running, So they
do a lot of things like legislating for like the
Secure Acts to get mandatory retirement savings to force people

(18:27):
to save California, they lobbied a lot to get you know,
essentially mandated retirement accounts for employers here in California. So
they're essentially forcing money into their system in order to
keep it keep it going because they know that less
money is going in, all of the money's about to
come out as boomers retire and have to sort of exit,

(18:48):
and as then there's generational wealth transfer that doesn't get reinvested.
There's all sorts of problems within the industry. So there's
there's kind of that stage that we're that we're sort
of in, which then only is followed up by the
last stage of a bubble, which economists just call it panic.
And I was looking at it from the panic standpoint of,

(19:09):
you know, the future poor scenario is really a nineteen
fifty to twenty forty, so a ninety year sort of bubble,
a long arc economic bubble to the point where we're
in the panic stage now. And I don't think most
people see it. I don't think the industry really sees it.
I don't think most consumers see it. But if you're

(19:33):
wise and you step back and go, oh, we're in
this stage, and you sort of look at what we
do instead. People have probably seen movies like The Big
Short or read Michael Lewis's book The Big Short where
you talk about what people actually do instead is you
kind of bet against it, you short it in financial terms,
And so we're taking a big bet against retirement as

(19:55):
a as a practice, and me personally just I'm heavily
in tested in essentially shorting retirement by doing something completely different,
and we're seeing a lot of progress there and I
think will actually help people out and capitalize on this bubble.
That's first. And so we're open and we're open to

(20:17):
actually help people out and save the middle class in
one way, shape or form, just because the game has
to change.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, yeah, well that's fantastic and that's what I feel
we need. I mean, just like in every industry, I mean,
they can't stay the same forever, but try as they might.
But so this is exciting to me and I think,
you know, and I'm such a mindset person that just
thinking about something completely differently, including work. I mean, my

(20:47):
whole business started because I wanted people to think about
work differently. Yeah, this is obviously tied to work. And
I never I get the I need to retire when
you've been working at a job you hate for forty years,
just cannot wait till that day that you don't need
to go into that factory or office or whatever. But
we don't live in that anymore, you know. And I mean,

(21:09):
so that's the upside of everything that's going on with
technology and everything, is it gives you a lot of
opportunities that you could conceivably do in retirement. Like the
whole retirement thing that's like stop working doesn't make sense
to me. And every time might go to the hardware
store of talking to the like seventy eight year old
guy who's having fun working in there, I'm thinking, you know,

(21:31):
it makes sense to me, not that you have to,
you know, do a hardware store job, but but you
could do anything now really when you think about.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
It, yeah, I mean you kind of. I think you
mentioned in your intro about meaningful work. That's one of
the things that I've been talking to people about is
we have this idea that we're all engaged in meaningless labor,
and I tell people the transition really is from meaningless
labor to meaningful work, and we see it on the

(21:58):
like Pew data shows that people over sixty five report
the highest job satisfaction and then people under thirty essentially
the lowest job satisfaction. So you're like, Okay, what is this,
what is this thing here that's going on? And you know,
and as people transition to more meaningful work, and as
people are healthier and live longer, there's really no need

(22:20):
to exit. And exiting actually proves to be globally one
of the worst things for people's health. Exit exit from
work does a lot more than just remove income and benefits.
It removes their social connections, purpose, meaning and activity, and
those things sort of set people up to live a

(22:42):
better life and a more fulfilled life. And that's one
of the things that we talk about with clients is
we really actually might be the only financial firm that
really is curious about your social connections and your social context.
And so we want to understand people's friend network social networks.
We want to understand are you part of any clubs

(23:04):
or volunteer, Are you engaged in any sort of meaningful
community connection because they found that that actually has more
economic impact on your well being than the amount of
money you have. And that's going back.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
To like what's the how so is it connected to money?

Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah? So they it kind of start. Are you familiar
with Robert Putnam and his work Bowling Alone? My chance? Okay,
so you'll enjoy his work. I believe he started studying
I think in Europe must have been thirty forty years
ago now that he started. But they were studying like
what makes for economic viability in different cultures and why

(23:48):
different communities with similar resources would have completely different outcomes.
And the main thing that they landed on was people's
social connections in their social networks. And so he then
was studying in America the decline of social involvement, whether
it's rotary clubs or you know, the different things like
bowling leagues, which led to him, right, you know, the

(24:10):
title being bowling Alone was the was the title of
his work. And he worked with like the Clinton administration
on this and just sort of encouraging like how can
we how can we return to this because this is
actually really valuable, whether it's I was involved in the
PTA while my kids were in elementary school, and every

(24:31):
year there was less and less parents involved. And we
just see globally, whether it's church attendance, you know, different
social clubs, you know the traditional, you know the rotary club,
all those different all those different things, all of it's
been in rapid decline in America for decades. And then

(24:52):
when where that's present, you have economic disruption and people
don't get as far economic because we require so many
social things in order just to survive and to build
financial lives. I think one of the reasons why the
book was delayed. We were talking earlier just going through

(25:13):
the going through the Altadena wildfires in early January, and
for me it was really eye opening because I was
looking for that story of where what's a real vivid
story of how we need all of our social connections
and social pillars to show up in our lives, and
then overnight our house burned down, we lost everything, we

(25:33):
were displaced, and then seeing the community sort of rally,
seeing the different government support, whether it's FEMA or other things,
seeing the Red Cross, seeing community organizations pop up to
give food, clothes, water, help people get shelter, even things
like Airbnb offering you know, free you know, coupons and

(25:54):
things like that to help people find immediate shelter and needs.
The hotels basically opening up, you know, being flooded with
Altadene residents here and Palisades residents on the west side
of LA and so you know, you see different businesses
show up and offer, you know, to help rebuild or
help refurnish, because all of a sudden you have to

(26:16):
figure out every little thing that you had in your
house and now needs to be essentially replaced. And you know,
it's it's a wild, wild experience. But you can't do
it without without community, you can't do it alone. It's
it's impossible. It's such a big undertaking. And so that's
one of the things that I think we're trying to
help people understand is you gotta we got to reinvest

(26:37):
back into our social community and our social networks because
that's going to help us out far more than your
savings rate or or things like that, because that's that's
what's going to really show up and create sort of
an underlying economic foundation for people long term to help
and then as we age as well, that's where it
really shows up. It because most seniors right now report

(27:02):
the highest levels of isolation and loneliness, which only leads
to anxiety depression, which only then is a gateway to
fast tracking Alzheimer's dementia, poor health, sedentary lifestyle which only
shortens life expectancy. So all these things are really interconnected,
and we've really gotten away from that, and it's not good.

(27:25):
It's not good for us economically, it's not good for
us psychologically, it's not good for us socially. And so
that's where that's where that emphasis becomes so important for
us in the mix and then all of the stuff
that goes along with just how we financially plan and
the different tools and resources that we have at our
disposal to use to sort of try and help create

(27:47):
a better financial life in addition to our community and
social structures.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Oh I love that, And you know, I love that
you consider yourself a financial ethicist to function that word right,
because it's so true, so interconnected at all of it.
You know, work, money, these ideas, social and of course health,
And you're right, I mean, your level of social interaction
with people has a very direct impact on your health.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, And that's that's where I was so grateful. I
didn't quite know why I switched my major to ethics.
Back in college, I had a wonderful ethics professor who
he was foundational for helping me think through the issues
that I was seeing with the future poor, you know,
some twenty years after graduating with my degree in ethics.

(28:36):
But it really is a really interesting foundation to sort
of bring to the table that I don't know, you know,
I always joke that it's like, canoxy more on that
I have an ethics degree and I'm in finance. They
oftentimes don't seem like they should go together, but that's
that's the case. But also, but thinking through a real
ethical framework and a lens that really asks what's really

(28:57):
good for people is such a different framework, and I
actually think it's a frame with that it's making a
lot of sense to the people that we're interacting with
as we talk about different things and hopefully move people
financially to a better spot. The ethics thing is what's
really sort of gives us sort of a different underlying

(29:19):
ideology to work from that I think people trust a
lot more than are you just trying to sell me
something or you're just trying to get my money? We
really want people to understand that we really, you know,
with me and my partners that work in the financial
side of things professionally, there really is we're really driven
by an ideology and really driven by trying to save

(29:42):
the middle class, really driven by trying to understand all
the financial tools that are out there and how do
we put them together for you so that you're taken
care of and that you understand with hopefully some real precision,
why you're doing the things you're doing and why it
makes sense and where we're sort of really living. And

(30:04):
oddly enough, I think we're on the we're really resonating
with a lot of folks because people don't have a
lot of faith in the system at the moment, and
they meet with most financial professionals that still have a
lot of faith in the system. That disconnect is not
it's not working, and so we don't have a lot
of faith in the system, which is weird because we're

(30:25):
also in it. So I, you know, I'm a professional,
and yet I don't have a whole lot of faith
in the system, which is why we're trying to do
some different stuff.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Well, I think what you know to me, what I'm
hearing is you don't have faith in the system, as
it's been a sort of breaking down a bit over
the years, antiquating itself. But there is faith in the system,
if you know, if maybe you can do things differently
with it.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
I mean, you know, it's a.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
System within which you can make some changes and have
some better outcomes.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, And one of the things that I tried to
do is go these are the financial tools that are
out there every like, these things, whether it's life insurance
four O one k's four O three b's, pensions, annuities,
long term care, insurance, disability, you know, wroth iras, brokerage accounts, robinhood, like,

(31:23):
all these things are out there, So how do we like,
what are they? Why are they still here? How can
we take these tools that are out there and maybe
use them different and structure them different to get a
better outcome. And you know, in one sense, someone else
might use a roth ira completely different than the way

(31:46):
I do. And as part of it is understanding, Hey,
there's multiple ways this tool can be can be used.
You know, I always use like the hammer analogy, Like
hammers can do all kinds of things. If you're create
and if you're and if you think outside the box.
And I'm heavily influenced by a Harvard professor named Ellen

(32:07):
Langer who wrote a book called Mindfulness and how oftentimes
we get trapped by a category. And so if we
tell someone a spoon is meant for just eating soup
or cereal, then people oftentimes get trapped into thinking that's
the only use for a spoon, as opposed to if
you say, what are the twenty different things you might
be able to do with this spoon, then you sort

(32:29):
of go into this whole difference creative space and thinking, oh,
I could dig a hole, I could make music with it,
I could use it as a catapult. I can you know?
I can do all kinds of different things with this spoon.
And that's where we I think, for myself, it started
with myself just trying to strip away like everything that

(32:50):
I've been told this is what this particular thing is,
but then really going, now, what are all the different
things that it can do? Yeah? And then how do
I put that next to another final tool and show
how that compliments and how that works together, And that
that evolution sort of led us to a planning model
that we call it the magic circle. It's just a

(33:12):
proprietary tool that we've built where we just lay lay
together what people have and it kind of outlines these
are the different features that these different accounts pick up
for you, where the holes in this plan? And then
how can we compliment and fix it? And it's really
opening up people's minds to the whole wide range of tools.
And you know, if you're on TikTok, you'll see everyone

(33:35):
talk about the S and P five hundred. Yeah. Yeah,
everyone says they invest in the S and P five
hundred And then they're like, well, no one tells you how,
so open up a brokerage account at Fidelity, Schwab or
Vanguard and buy their S and P five hundred fun
And that's as far as it goes. And I looked
at it and said, well, no, there's actually ten different
ways you can own the S and P five hundred.

(33:57):
You can own it in all kinds of different accounts,
and each way that you own it radically changes its
purpose and use in your real life. And so you know,
I can just go down the list whether you own
an a four M k orth Ira and hsay if
you own it within a life insurance policy or an
annuity or a five to two nine plan. All these
different tools then create radically different ways that that money

(34:21):
works and can move and operate in your life. But
most people don't have a clue as to how to
put all of that together. And that's where I got creative,
and it was like, Wow, that's the real magic, because
when we start putting all these things together, we really
create more efficiency on the way up and more efficiency
in the way people accumulate money, But we really create

(34:42):
efficiency on the back end when it's time to use
your money. And that's that's the magic. That's where that's
where it really matters. When it's time to use your money,
do you have it in the right place and is
it going to do that job really really well? And
so that's where that's where we're sort of in this
whole kind of solution of just reshaping the way financial advising,

(35:04):
the way financial planning works so that we hopefully get
the best outcome and get more precise m I.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Really love that, and I you know, it kind of
reminds me a little of what very wealthy people do
with like a family office, Like is looking at everything
so that all the puzzle pieces will fit together the
way they should with taking advantage of all kinds of
relationships of these things, and the average person doesn't do that, you.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
Know, yeah, yeah. And one of the areas that we've
seen some of the most impact is in regards to
the life insurance. That is something that is utilized a
ton by wealthy folks, whether it's within trust with things
like you know, islets or these other different ways people
can utilize life insurance, whether it's through transfers of wealth

(35:52):
outside the tax system, as well as just creating generational
wealth for families and the middle class has been I
think sold some really bad information about life insurance as
well as other insurance products. And I admit there is
some really bad stuff. People send us some stuff and

(36:14):
I just look at it. I'm like, oh my gosh,
how could anyone have ever put you in this thing?
It's no wonder it gets such a bad name. But
one of the things that I offer to everyone is
I will do free life insurance review complimentary. If anyone
listening and any of your audience that wants a life
insurance review, send it my way. You can either send

(36:35):
it to you can look it up through the future.
Poor and reach out or my email is Jonathan at
Fernbridge dot us ask for a life insurance review. We
help people kind of get out of them. So we
either say either need to change this, cancel it, or
you may be one of the few that have something

(36:56):
good and so we generally don't see that side of things.
And so, but once people start to understand how a
tool like life insurance can compliment the other stuff in
their life and how they can really use it and
actually have something that's good as opposed to something that's
either bad or costing them a lot of money without
a lot of benefit, or getting themselves into a really

(37:18):
cash disadvantaged place with it. When we when we flip
that around, people's lives start to take on different shape
financially and they start seeing things through the lens of oh,
so I can use all my money and I'll still
be able to leave a legacy to my kids. And
it's like yeah, and a good one. We create efficiencies

(37:40):
there as well as just with other other products. You know,
we do four to one K reviews. I've seen so
many people that have iras or roth irays that actually
haven't been invested right, it's just been they've just been opened,
and then I'm like, isn't there anyone on the other
side of this, like an advisor that will help, Like
you're sending your money to this account, but no one's

(38:01):
actually doing the next step of investing it and thinking
through like how does this tool strategically fit within your life?
And what other tools are you putting together to kind
of make a full, robust life as well as how
are you building a life financially that will sort of
adapt to the different challenges or things like that. And

(38:25):
it's actually a pretty easy conversation. Like I asked people.
I was at a book signing event and I asked,
you know, if your house burns down like mine did,
do you want a four to oh one K or
do you want homeowners or renters insurance? It's like a
four to one K is the wrong tool for that
life job. And you know, life has a bunch of
different jobs. And we've kind of been lazy as an

(38:48):
industry just saying well, just have more money, yes, and
so trying to get back to let's not be lazy
because this is these are money moves, and money moves
are life moves, and that matters a lot. And the
wrong moves can create really bad outcomes for people, and ethically,
that's just not not what we not what we should

(39:08):
be or want or want to be doing for people.
And so you know, trying to you know, bring that
message to the masses, and you know, through conversations like
this and you know the other stuff we've been working on.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Well, this is so it's really it's funny how synchronicities occur.
But a couple of shows ago, we had Joey Murray
talking about something called Wealth without Wall Street. He was
talking about passed income, and he brought up the whole
idea of the value of life insurance. And I don't
even know the terms. I stayed away from it, though,

(39:43):
any kind of what used to be called whole life
because I was told by somebody at some point that's
a terrible investment and it was also very expensive when
I was young looking at it.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Yeah, those are those are a couple of the common
I call them life insurance myths that are sort of
built from some facts.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
So yeah, well, and he created a lot of passive
income enough to quit a job at a high paying job,
and it was very much about using you know, the
life insurance money to invest in other things or do
other things and create some passive income. And it was
something that was really eye opening, but you know, sort

(40:23):
of left you thinking, well, how do I find the
right life insurance kind of options? So you coming on
and talking about this is I think a great follow
up because you understand because the average person isn't going
to go out and know how to find you know,
whatever it was you know that he was talking about.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yeah, and the average life insurance agent has no idea
the tool that's actually in their hands. And that's that's
part of the problem. And I don't exactly know why
carrier carriers do that, but it's part of how people
are trained. And you know a lot of them are

(41:03):
trained to be salesmen yea, but not advisors. And it's
not that that you know, oftentimes people be like, well,
that means they're bad. I'm like, no, I don't. I
have yet to meet anyone truly in the life insurance
space that's not trying to help people. I agree, but
they don't really know exactly what they've got because they're
private contracts and they're detailed and there's a million ways

(41:27):
you can build them, but most people don't know how
to do it, and so that's where that's part of
how we help get people out of bad ones and
also why they oftentimes get a bad name because they're
not understood and then the people selling them don't quite
understand them, and so they and once you once you meet,
like if you meet with me and we go through

(41:49):
a life insurance conversation. So when we sit down and
really go through life insurance, we can you know, get
rid of some of the myths real quick. One is cost.
If there's more money in it, then you put in
where's the cost? It's usually most people have less money
in their accounts than they've put in, and that's what
we try and help with. And a second thing is

(42:11):
like buy term and invest. The difference is thrown out there.
It's like, well, what if you could invest within life insurance,
be in the s and P five hundred within a
life insurance contract. Most people don't have any idea that
that's possible. And then yeah, you might have a little
bit of trade off in the front end where an
investment account might have more money up front, but in

(42:35):
long run, it's like do you want twenty more thousand
dollars in your account or three million dollars for your beneficiaries.
Is that a good trade off? And you know you
do that math twenty thousand for you versus three million
for someone else. You can you can do that and
get that space and really understand and be in a
crazy spot. And then some of it, too, is just

(42:58):
understanding how the accounts grow and most people have no
idea how to structure so that you get the best
out of and strip out all the costs and get
all of the benefits of these private contracts, and how
how they live outside the tech system, how the money
can grow, and the multiple uses that they can have,

(43:19):
and the other things that they can do, as far
as oftentimes carriers that are really good will do different
things where they'll advance you death benefit in advance if
you have a chronic illness. And there's so many stories
of people being able to you know, whether it's a
cancer diagnosis or some other serious medical thing where you know,
they can get access to a lot of money very

(43:40):
quickly through their life insurance. And you know, then the
people that have it love it and are super grateful
for when it's time to use it. Uh, and you know,
we can we can make money go a lot farther
by having that be a part of the equation. And
you know, I always tell people like, it's not if
you're the whole life site. It's not an investment. It

(44:01):
is not like and that's where it gets a bad
name because most people try and sell it like it
is an investment, but it's not. It's a completely different
type of financial tool. And that's where when we show
people and help understand why this is a valuable piece
to their puzzle and what it can do for them.
And then when you're not beholden to a particular carrier

(44:22):
or anything like that, you can go find the best carrier,
the best product for the right job. And then that
kind of opens up the door for all kinds of
all kinds of fun. And then most people, once they
start to really understand it, they try and have more
of it. And so because they're excited about it its
potential impossibility as well as just how it fits in

(44:46):
to their financial life as opposed to just me coming
along and saying you should buy this, look, I think
it's awesome, but really trying to have that conversation where
it really makes sense of why they would even do it,
and then also say, hey, this is not the right
tool for you at this at this point because it
doesn't it doesn't make sense for it. You have what

(45:07):
you have running. So that's where That's where I think
that life insurance piece, as well as just some of
the other things, whether their long term cares, are really misunderstood.
There's a lot of different ways that one can work
for people's lives, even the ways people plan for their
medical using HSA's if they're able to have them. There's
just a lot of misconceptions around how some of these

(45:29):
things work and how valuable they really can be given
what you're probably going to need money for.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Well, I love this. I love that your take because
I think mostly we operate in in you know, we're
purchasing things in isolation without really seeing any of the
you know, the bigger picture, and that's hard for people
who aren't trained to see.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
Yeah, so we we.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
Buy this and we buy that, all the good things.
It's like buying a bunch of clothes, you know, each
individual item is is, it's cool and looks great, but
they don't really work together, you know. So yeah, I
think it's super important what you're what you're talking about here.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Well, I say that saving money is important, and that's
where most people are trying to do. And that's I
think what most of the advice is is to just
save more money, and and that's good people should and
if they're in a position to save money, it's a
good thing to do. But it's very different than actually
having a strategy. And I think that what most people

(46:29):
have walked away with, whether it's from their financial professional,
from their accountant, from you know, their life insurance guy
or gal is a is savings. Just save more, so
save this way, save that way, as opposed to actually
being given a strategy that really will map onto their

(46:50):
real life better than just saving. And that's really what
I mean. I saw it with retirement. Retirement in the
way that we say to do it just doesn't map
onto real life anymore. And so what are we going
to do that really does? And I just don't think
most people are given anything beyond setting more money is
the thing you've got to do, and you know, save

(47:12):
in this account, save in that account. Hopefully it works
as opposed to real real strategy. And you know, I
think the industry gets lost a lot of times, and
it's terminology and it's it's strategies are either for the
ultra wealthy, or you need a you know, you need
a doctorate in economics, or you got to you got
to understand and be trained in the foreign language that

(47:33):
is finance. And so what we're trying to do is
make that much more simpler because it doesn't have to
be rocket science and it doesn't have to be crazy,
but it can also be complex because it does require strategy.
And so the people that are really interested in a
financial strategy are the people that usually find what we're
doing much more up their alley and much more within

(47:57):
what they're thinking, and it usually makes a lot of
sense to them. The people that just want to save
or do it yourself, those people tend not to understand
or be the best for strategy at this point, or
people that are really locked into still trying to force
the retirement game. And so I'm always honest with people
as far as if I'm the right person or you know,

(48:19):
the firm is the right fit, because it is. It
is different. It is a different approach and a different
a different mindset, but hopefully it's one that works far
better and we hope to get a good, good output
on the other end, for people and where we can
really stamp it and say, yeah, I believe in this,
and I have a high level of confidence that this
is gonna work. It's going to work really, really well,

(48:42):
as opposed to just living in the world of probabilities
and gets. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Oh, Jonathan, thank you so much. I hate that we're
out of time. We are, you know, but it's such
an interesting conversation. I could have gone so many places
with this. Yeah, a little about taxes, a little about
all kinds of things. But yeah, I'd love to have
you back on.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Maybe, well next time, let's stock taxes. That's always fun
and everyone loves that.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
It's so overlooked. I know it sounds boring, but it's
actually really it. I mean, once you start paying taxes
on certain things that maybe you didn't expect to pay
taxes on or not at that rate, it you really,
you know, the curtain gets pulled back and you realize
the tax aspect of the strategy you're talking about has
to be factored in. Oh yeah, So anyway, please let

(49:34):
us let the audience know how they can find you.
Your offer is really generous and lovely that people can
call you and get more information, you know.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
Yeah, this go ahead. Yeah, So first is the books
available at major bookstores online. You can go to a
local bookstore and hopefully find it maybe at Amazon. That's
where everyone goes. So the books available, you know to
go to the future poor dot com. And then there's
also on the Future poor as a place to sign up.

(50:05):
I send out on a pretty decent regular basis different
articles or things that I'm working on related to finance
that I think are helpful or just different insights into
different things. But all the information around the Future Poor
is on that website. And then if you would like
your life insurance reviewed, reach out. I love doing it.
It's a ton of fun and it's fun to educate

(50:25):
people on that product. And you can reach me at
Jonathan Atfernbridge dot us. That's the professional website if you
have any questions. We make ourselves fully available available for
people because we know that especially in the middle class,
needs a lot of help and oftentimes there's a barrier
to entry for getting good financial help. So if you

(50:48):
have questions, you can hit me up there and as always,
would love to continue the conversation in any way, shape
or porm if there's anything interesting or anything that caught
your attention or anything you even disagree with. I like
fielding those questions as well, because it is it is
entering into some world that maybe hasn't been explored before
or explored the way that you know I'm seeing it

(51:10):
and trying to trying to take the conversation.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Yeah, thank you, Thank you so much, and you know
everything you're talking about, and just being able to have
these frank conversations with somebody who actually, you know, is
caring about the person's welfare versus necessarily you know, selling
a product or whatever. I mean, that's how people do
build a better relationship with money is knowing that there
are people, there is a community, you know, in a

(51:35):
team that's helping you out, and you can ask these questions.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
It's a big started.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
It's just the education for yourself. So thank you again,
and don't forget you have a podcast? I do?

Speaker 1 (51:45):
Oh yeah, what's up with Money? Is there a podcast?
We Because of the fires and just delays and things
like that, it hasn't been as consistent as we were
in the past, but we're getting that train up and
running as well. So What's Up with Money is podcast?
I do with one of one of my good buddies
named Ryan, and that usually is about every week to

(52:08):
every other week that we're trying to drop something. So
conversations like this, ideas that we have and are just
exploring about the strange world of money.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Well, thank you and best of up to you. I
love what you're doing. I see it taking off, and
I hope it continues to do so in a really
major way. I think the world needs what you're selling here.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
So yeah, well, thank you, and next I will move
from a depressing topic of the future board to a
depressing topic known as taxes.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
All right, well, none of it has to be depressing.
It's all we make it. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah,
all right, audience, thank you, thank you for showing up
for the money and you show. We love it when
you are here. We are bringing fabulous guests and I
was so happy that you know you're you're learning from
such experts, and so please subscribe like review. All of

(52:59):
that helps us us. You can find us on all
the podcast platforms and on the limit Free Life YouTube channel.
So thanks so much, and we'll see you next week.