June 3, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode, Josh Yoder and Kirsten Borbe to share their amazing story of how a networking message on LinkedIn led to a friendship. The discussion begins with insights into Josh and Kirsten's backgrounds and networking perspectives. They emphasize the importance of authentic networking and overcoming fear, sharing strategies for building genuine connections and evolving professional relationships into friendships. Key communication skills such as brevity and authenticity are highlighted, alongside the role of altruism in networking. The conversation addresses the fear of risk and concludes with thoughts on networking courage and bravery. Closing remarks offer appreciation for the insights shared.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Okay, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
Exciting, exciting topic and guests today.
I have a repeat guest.
One of your favorites, Josh Yoder, is back withus.
Josh, welcome.
Thank you.
Glad to be here.
Thanks for the invite.
Always been fun.
And now we have Josh's buddy, and we're gonnaget into that story.
(00:25):
Kirsten Borby.
I get that right?
Did I say that right?
I'm terrible with names, but I got that right.
And I wanted to start this off by do you guyswanna do, like, a disclaimer kinda thing?
Either of you?
You want me to do it?
Either way
is good.
I think it's pretty standard.
Right?
These are our opinions, not the opinions of anypast or present employ employers.
(00:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
For sure.
And, you know, would just, you know, gotta berespectful to, you know, to the yeah.
Exactly.
So but so, guys, we're gonna talk today aboutand so, basically, I had met Kirsten through
Josh.
(01:09):
We met at MAPS, had a conversation.
She tells me about how these guys met.
And I was like, wait a second.
That is like an amazing, like, tale of, like,networking and friendship and bravery.
So that's why, like, if you look at this if youthink, like, the title's kinda click baity,
(01:30):
it's it is for on purpose because it it's allthose things.
So I, Kirsten, I'm going to start with withyou.
And if you want to do a quick introductionfirst, and then we can kind of get into the
story.
Is that cool?
Sure.
Well, I'm Kirsten Borby, and it's great to behere.
(01:52):
Thanks for inviting me onto podcast, Tom, andgreat to be here with Josh too.
I'm an internal medicine physician by trainingand experience, and I've spent the last four
years in industry, in a variety of differentroles.
And today's topic is just something I'm reallypassionate about, which is people.
The science is something that I've alwaysloved, but people are really at the center of
(02:15):
everything I've done in my life.
So thanks for letting me talk about that.
And we're so excited, and I can't wait for youto share the story.
So take us back and and let's talk about andyou if you could tell us the story of how and
why you originally reached out to Josh and,like, what you were expecting from that
(02:37):
communication.
Yeah.
So that's a that's a great question, and I'llwind it all the way back to, I've been
listening to the podcast for probably fiveyears.
I love podcasts.
I listen to them when I run.
And in this particular case, I had beenlistening to this episode, and I loved the
(03:00):
topic.
I loved the authenticity of the conversation.
And I've kinda developed a habit of when I seesomething that intrigues me about either the
people or what they're talking about, I go lookthem up, and I see if I can find them.
And and I really, just go for a reach out.
And so, when I saw that Josh actually had inhis LinkedIn that he lives in the Denver
(03:24):
Metropolitan Area, I thought, oh, we could beneighbors.
So I really just made an authentic reach outjust really to say, hi, and I'm here.
We're in the same industry and just sayinghello, really, and sharing how much I enjoyed
what he had said on the podcast.
(03:45):
So Josh and I do a podcast.
You you hear it.
You're inspired.
You reach out to him.
And then, Josh, you see this message comethrough.
And what did you think?
Like like, what stood out?
What made you respond?
What was your side of it?
Sure.
(04:05):
I love networking with people anyway.
I think we'll get into the differences, the theway people approach it and all that, I think.
But to me, it's fun.
Right?
I I'm with Kirsten.
Like, I got into all this stuff to help people.
Right?
I I I think most people get into science andmedicine for that reason.
It is interesting, but it's a way to helppeople.
(04:26):
I think networking is the same way.
Right?
You you meet a bunch of people.
Nobody knows everything about everything.
I've worked some with some incredibly smartpeople that feel like they know everything.
They still know everything.
There's always, you know, that that value inhaving different people, different
perspectives, the the diversity of thought andbackground into that.
I view networking as a way to just make thoseconnections.
(04:47):
Right?
I don't have to know anything.
If I know you know something and I know Kirstenknows something, I can put you two together and
get out of the way and let you guys do awesomework and that that help people.
Right?
So Mhmm.
Almost any outreach I get, I'm going to be opento it.
And I've told Kirsten this.
I give everybody a chance.
Just the people that are duds, don't keepinteracting with.
Right?
So I I think in general, like, I get a messagelike that.
(05:10):
I'm like, hey.
You're in the area.
Let's let's explore this, and let's see, youknow, where it goes.
I think some of my best friends I've met in mylife, in my personal life, have come through
LinkedIn, have just reached out and and, youknow, that same sort of thing.
This is the connection we have.
Let's talk about it, and then you just throwthings out there, find where the commonalities
(05:30):
are, and kinda move forward from there, Ithink.
I love your story about maps.
I I was gonna go to maps for the first timethis year.
I've still not been to that.
Started a new company that you introduced meto, like, last year.
Started there in January.
Turned out we had an internal meeting at thesame time.
On my entire flight going to that meeting, Iwas texting with multiple people saying, like,
(05:52):
oh, you're gonna be at Match.
You're gonna be at Match.
You guys need to meet each other.
And to me, that that's just I I'd rather bethere.
I love hanging out with friends.
A lot of people there that I like that I don'tsee all the time.
But if I can put two other people together thatcan interact with one another and get positive
outcomes from it, I'm just as happy from that.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Yeah.
I love it.
I love the way this whole thing kindaoriginated.
(06:16):
It reminds me too.
So Kirsten said she heard me on the podcast.
She didn't just hear me.
She heard me and Kendra.
And this is the third time I've been on yourpodcast.
Every time it's been with another person, and II love that too.
It's not about coming on and talking aboutsomething what I know.
Mhmm.
Or I workshop at a conference, whatever, Ialways tell people, like, everybody in this
room collectively knows way more than I do.
(06:38):
Let's get all our thoughts together.
So it was on with Kendra.
Was on with Linda.
Now I'm with Kirsten.
Like, I love that aspect of it too.
Yeah.
I didn't think of that.
That's right.
It was always with other people.
And great episodes.
Like, just awesome.
I love both
of smart enough to do this on my own, Tom.
Come on, man.
Don't you say that.
Not true.
(06:58):
That's not true.
But you you actually, the episodes were bothreally, really good.
And, guys, for those of you listening, go backbecause one of them the the first one was about
how to architect a presentation for an MSLinterview.
So if you have an interview coming up, Josh andKendra do an amazing job in that episode.
(07:21):
And then the other one is with Linda Trailer,and it's a book review for our one of our
favorite books, which is Never Split TheDifference by Chris Voss, which is an amazing
book.
I would listen to that too, and I read thebook.
So side note.
Okay.
So Kirsten, what motivated you to to, like,reach out and take that risk even though you
(07:45):
didn't really know, like, how Josh mightreceive it?
Yeah.
No.
It's a great question.
And I will say so Josh and I, we have a lot ofsimilarities in our personality, but I will
also say we have some differences, and we'velaughed about these differences.
I am by nature an overthinker partly, I think,because being an internal medicine physician,
(08:08):
it's part of the job.
If you're not overthinking, you're you'reyou're probably not doing right by your
patients.
So I do feel like when I when I think aboutrisk, I always think about upside and downside.
And in the case of reaching out to somebody, Ithink of the downside as zero and the upside as
(08:30):
unlimited.
So from my perspective, I didn't really see anyrisk in it, and I didn't really have any
expectation.
And I would say when I do reach out to peopleor when I have reached out to people, I don't
have an expectation of anything on the otherend of it.
And perhaps that attitude helps me deal withthe fact that it could be anything.
(08:54):
It maybe it maybe someone doesn't respond, butI will say more times than not, people are are
pretty responsive.
And I actually think people are happy whenothers are curious about their lives and what
they're doing, and they're happy to share theirstories.
And, I think there's just so much to gain fromthat when you don't attach any expectation to
(09:16):
it on the back end.
Yeah.
I like what you said there.
When you don't attach any expectation on theback end.
Because I think a lot of times when I seepeople networking, they don't take the best
approach because they make it all aboutthemselves.
And it's just like, hey, I came across yourprofile and I need you to help me with this.
(09:39):
And guys, that's just that's that's not theapproach.
And I know that that's not the approach thatyou took when you reached out to Josh.
But getting back to this question abouthesitancy and like risk and reaching out, the
other thing I hear from a lot of people,especially people in our coaching program, we
talk about this a lot.
(09:59):
And there's this kind of fear and nervous.
People get very nervous when networking andreaching out.
So Josh, I wanna hear from you and yourperspective on this.
Like what advice would you give to, let's say,job seekers or just career professionals who
(10:21):
are nervous about networking and and takingthat step?
Yeah.
I think it's it's probably common in anythingyou're doing, whether it's networking, whether
it's starting a business, learning things.
It's fear of failure.
Right?
Don't be afraid of that.
You're I mean, Michael Jordan has a famousquote, right, about, you know, the number of or
(10:44):
I don't know if it's a direct quote, but heknows the number of game winning shots that he
missed too.
Right?
And he's like, you don't you don't make thosegame winning shots without without taking them.
Right?
Yeah.
But you're
gonna miss some of them.
You're not always gonna be successful.
Not nothing's gonna be a % successful.
Tell my kids that all the time.
You learn something new, you're gonna you gofail.
You go keep doing it.
You go keep getting better at it.
(11:04):
Right?
You know, you get back on the horse kind ofthing.
I think you just have to keep working atthings.
And quite honestly, especially in fieldmedical, I think this is exactly perfect
training essentially for reaching out to KOLs.
Talk to any what's your what's your hit rate onsending a blind email to a KOL that you don't
know.
Right?
Right.
Oh, percentage.
The same thing's gonna happen here.
(11:25):
Not everybody's gonna respond.
Some people, whether they don't have interest,some people don't have time.
I've had people reach out to me, and I don'tget back to them immediately.
If they follow-up, maybe I will, or maybe I'llbe going through messages a couple weeks later
when I have time, and I'll get back to them.
It's not a personal thing.
Right?
I think it's it's just the nature of what itis.
And I a little bit in field medical, I thinkpeople are open to connecting a little bit more
(11:49):
than they are in some fields, and I think youdo may get a little bit higher hit rate.
But still, it's not gonna be everybody youreach out to is just gonna be like, oh, this is
great.
Let's do it.
It's not personal.
It's no it's no reflection on you.
I think just go out there and do it and seewhere it goes.
I mean, I I'm I'm a big fan of just trying it,and you don't have to I I I think you wanna be
(12:10):
a little intentional.
Right?
I don't blast every single person on LinkedInand say, hey.
Let's connect.
Right?
It it has to be I think, like Kirsten said, younoticed, oh, this person had something
interesting.
We have something common in our background.
What's your reason for reaching out?
And tell the people that.
Right?
We went to the same university.
I saw you played this sport.
I I don't care what the connection is.
It can be at any year of your life.
(12:30):
I do this personally too.
We'll be walking through a restaurant orsomething else.
I'll someone I like their shirt or their shoesand, like or start some conversation.
My kids are like, do you know them?
Like, I do now.
Right?
It's there's just put ideas out there, right,and and be open to it.
I think you have to be a little open to the theopportunity and the fortuitousness that's out
(12:52):
there too and and not be afraid of that.
I'm not offended if someone doesn't wanna havea conversation.
I don't know what's going on in their life.
Maybe they have a bad day.
They have a relative that's sick.
Their mind's somewhere else.
It who knows what it is.
But I think if you don't try, you know, it'sWayne Gretzky does have a a direct quote.
You know, a % of the shots you don't take,don't go in.
Right.
(13:12):
So if you don't put it out there into theworld, you're you know the answer already.
It's no.
Well and, you know and I love I love thatpoint.
I and I think it's it's really good advicebecause I think that maybe expectations are a
little off with with a lot of people where theyget frustrated or they take it personally if
(13:34):
they're not getting a lot of responses.
It should be the opposite.
You should and I'm not saying I don't likesaying, hey, lower your expectations because I
don't wanna demotivate people.
But don't be offended if you're not getting aresponse from everyone.
And like Josh said, I don't know, they couldjust be busy or there could be something going
(13:57):
on in their life.
You just may have gotten them a lot a lot ofthis is timing.
So just keep that in mind and and do the reps.
So if you're a job seeker and you arenetworking with folks and sending out LinkedIn
connection request, for example, do the reps.
(14:19):
Meaning, you know, be consistent.
Try to do five to 10 a day, and then at the endof the week, you are gonna have a bunch of new
connections.
So that's all part of the whole networkinggame.
But so, Kirsten, let's go back to this firstconversation that you had with Josh.
How did you prepare for that?
(14:40):
And was there anything that you didintentionally to make a good impression?
I actually went I knew you were gonna ask methis question, so I actually went back to the
original LinkedIn message.
Oh, no way.
Because I had to think, because honestly, in mymind, I I really like I said, I'm such an
(15:00):
overthinker in some aspects of my life, but asfar as connecting with people, I don't
overthink that.
I actually think that there's such value, whichI think gets missed by the term networking
because that puts some type of value on whattype of interaction you're trying to have when
it's really just meeting people just for thesake of the wonderful people that they are and
(15:23):
that you meet.
So I I think when I made this reach out, Ididn't think too much about it.
I just I and I admittedly, with both of yousince I mean, Tom, I've been listening to the
podcast for five years.
When I met you at MAPS, I felt like I alreadyknew you for five years.
Now I I realized that was one-sided.
(15:43):
And in the case of reaching out to Josh, Ialready felt like I knew him.
I mean, you you get a lot of you get a a niceread into people when you hear them speak and
you hear them interact with somebody.
And so I actually I didn't really prepare forit.
It was just a short message, And I mentionedthat the proximity with where we live, and that
(16:07):
was really all there was to it.
I I don't think that I necessarily thoughtabout it more than that.
Well, I but that's a great approach, though,because you do have that in common.
But where you're where you reside, like, youhave that in common, and that really is enough.
(16:27):
You know, I mean, you know, Josh, as as healready said, is such an is such a great guy,
and he's so easygoing that I asked thequestion, but it didn't matter with Josh.
It's gonna matter with someone else, though.
So what I wanna point out and and give youkudos for is that you found the connection.
(16:48):
And I encourage others that when you'rereaching out to people, you're very tactful and
researched, and find some kind of connection orsomething that you could mention.
Even if it's a compliment or maybe they justreleased they got promoted or they released a
paper, they celebrated a birthday, whatever.
There's so many different things that you couldfocus on.
(17:08):
But I I definitely love the way you didn'tyou're normally an overthinker.
You didn't overthink this.
You just went for it.
But I will say too, when I met you, I you saidit's one-sided because you thought you know,
you've been listening to the podcast.
(17:29):
You felt like you knew me.
I felt like I knew you.
You just have that personality where and I saidthat to Josh.
I'm like, oh my god.
You know, I met Kirsten.
She's awesome.
I feel like I've known her for my whole life.
So it's crazy how things come full circle.
And I think you hit the nail on the head there.
And Josh and I I mean, while we can speak onthis topic, it's maybe a little unfair because
(17:53):
we have a personality that lends itself verynaturally to human connections, and I think you
do, Tom, as well.
So we are, kinda all cut from the same cloth inthat way.
And so these are things that for me are areeasy.
They're fun.
I enjoy it, and I've been this way my wholelife.
(18:14):
And I don't see myself changing, and I don'tthink Josh will be changing anytime soon
either.
So so it is I do feel like, you know, I I thinkit's important to speak to people who maybe
don't have that, you know, that side tothemselves naturally.
I think it can be cultivated.
But, again, I just think there doesn't need tobe so much fear in these types of things.
(18:38):
And I do find that people are very receptive toto being reached out to in an authentic way.
I don't think it I don't think it needs to be afrightening experience.
Yeah.
No.
I've listen.
I totally agree, and I think that that's agreat message because I think a lot of people
do overthink this.
(18:59):
And they get in their own head, and thenthey're paralyzed, and then they never send the
message, and they never do the reach out.
And then just like Josh said, you you know, ifyou don't take any shots, you're not gonna
you're not gonna score.
So getting back to your relationship andfriendship, like, at what point was there a
(19:20):
shift from this, like, professionalconversation to, like, a true friendship?
Like, was there, like, a specific moment thathappened?
As I say this, it almost reminds me of, like,that scene in Step Brothers where, like, did we
just become best friends?
It might have been like that.
(19:41):
I
don't know, Josh.
I'll let you answer that one.
No.
I think it was pretty quick.
And sorry.
My my ADHD is all over the place.
You guys keep saying these things, and I have,like, a hundred different examples for each
each part of it.
And but I think for this specifically, I mean,I I think it was pretty quick.
Right?
I think when people match energy like that, itit just naturally flows, at least for me.
(20:01):
I think you do make a good point, Kirsten.
It doesn't naturally flow for everyone, andthere are people that get into it, you know,
kind of a little more hesitantly and step intoit.
And and I think, again, I know we'll talk moreabout this too, but, like, one of the things is
people like, oh, yes.
You know, networking's for extroverts.
Right?
I know I know plenty of introverts and andKirsten too with the overthinking thing.
(20:22):
My wife's the same way, very much anoverthinker.
I've been my mom is too.
I've been planning for this my whole life.
I I talk to people all the time and kind oftalk them off the ledge when I need to.
But I think, you know, sometimes people peoplewill say, meet my wife, and they're like, she's
introverted, really?
Like, we have a great conversation.
And I feel like there are so many introvertsthat are such good connectors with people.
(20:44):
They just don't go do it and don't go out andkind of walk into a room and meet everybody
like we might.
Right?
But once they connect with someone and and kindof get to know them, trust them a little bit,
they're they're great conversationalists.
Right?
Some of the best MSLs I know are are hugeintroverts.
I another friend that I have worked with, sheworked on my team, multiple different
(21:05):
companies.
She'll go to one of these medical affairsconferences.
She's like, I've had enough of this.
I I I'm done peopling.
Right?
For me, that it gives me energy.
Right?
People are always like, oh, you're so highenergy.
I'm like, yeah.
One because you're with me.
I'm around people.
That's that's where I get my energy.
I love it.
I'll whether it it's gonna get to work, it'sgonna get to personal stuff, whatever, but,
(21:27):
like, I love interacting with people.
I tell people all the time one of my favoriteparts of traveling is getting an Uber or Lyft
because I don't care if it's a five minute rideor an hour ride.
I'm probably gonna know that person's lifestory by the time we get out of the car because
I'm just curious.
And I think that's another thing.
It it's it's good in medical affairs.
It's good in personal interactions.
Just be genuinely curious and and ask questionsthat interest you.
(21:49):
You'll see what lights other people up, right,and and keep talking about that.
I find almost everything interesting, so it's alittle bit easier to do that.
Right?
But I don't think you have to just beextroverted to to make this work.
Right?
You can, again, have those intentional reachouts, have a reason to reach out, put it in a
message.
It doesn't have to be five paragraphs.
I I have another good friend in Boulder rightnow.
(22:12):
Same thing.
We met on LinkedIn last year.
He reached out.
He said, you know, I'm and he's in theinvesting world.
Right?
Not and he had biotech band.
He was trying to learn more about meta affairs.
Literally, like, I went back and looked up thatmessage too because, like, Kirsten sent me the
the message that she initially wrote.
I'm like, I remember we were at I he came tothe MSL conference with me last year,
(22:33):
introduced him to people, and the guy knows somuch stuff in this world.
I'm like, you think you're not, like, digginginto this the same way people do scientifically
and medically, but he knows more about thepharma world than anyone I've ever met.
Just history of drugs, how all thesetransactions happen and stuff.
And I'm like, you're opening my eyes to adifferent a different world.
Right?
So I and someone asked us at that conference,like, how did you reach out?
(22:57):
What did you what was your message?
And he pulled it up, and, literally, it waslike, two, three sentences.
You know, this is what I do.
This is what I'm interested in learning.
Let's you know, are you open to talkingsometime?
We met up, same sort of thing.
I was at his wedding over the holidays lastyear.
I, you know, flew to South Carolina fromvisiting family in PA kind of thing.
So I think it's that that thing where you youreach out with, you know, what about you
(23:22):
interested me?
What's our connection?
You know, where where does it go from here?
If you hear back, great.
If you don't, it's fine too.
And and just follow that interest.
Right?
I think it's about it's about the those sort ofthings of you get we have this piece of
interest, like Kirsten said.
We don't align everywhere, but sometimes thoseopposite parts can kinda complement each other
(23:46):
as well.
Right?
So I think it's that sort of thing, but I don'tknow.
For me, our our conversation was so natural.
Again, we kind of have that personality that Ithink the the friendship started at the same
time the conversation started.
Yeah.
That completely.
Sorry if I I'm in different directions there.
You guys just make me think of a lot ofdifferent things while
(24:07):
you're talking.
No.
No.
Listen.
Actually, there's a lot to unpack there, andand I like first of all, if I I wanna point
out, you had said something that I think isreally important, and and that is, you know,
you said you don't need five paragraphs.
Like, you absolutely do not.
As a matter of fact, you wanna keep it briefbecause people aren't gonna read the five
(24:27):
paragraphs.
Yep.
You know, get to the point, make it brief, makeit heartfelt and genuine.
That's the most important thing.
And, you know, Josh, you're a master at this,man.
You're so easy to talk to, and you're such anatural, and you genuinely really enjoy people
(24:50):
and love people.
So it's so easy for you.
And, like, now Kirsten, now that I know you,you're the same way.
You're so easygoing and easy to talk to, andyou have this curiosity about you.
For the people that are listening that may notlike, it may not come as naturally to you, one
(25:19):
of the things that I wanna point out is is beyourself.
Don't try to be someone else because that'swhere people struggle, is where they try to put
themselves in a box or be something thatthey're not.
Take these best practices, curiosity, makingthe right connections, being researched, all of
the approaches and things that we're talkingabout, but do it on your terms and in your own
(25:42):
way.
Because I think that the way people get intotrouble is when they try to be something
they're not.
A %.
I I love that you used the word authenticity.
I think it's it's everything, honestly, and Ithink it's how you make connections.
Right?
If you're pretending you're into something oryou're trying to be someone you're not, I mean,
I have this conversation with people a lot,but, like, I can't stand being self
(26:06):
promotional.
Right?
Just be authentic.
And I think that's how you find those realconnections.
Right?
When you dig into stuff, it's gonna be clear ifsomeone's really into it or not.
So I think that authenticity goes a long way.
I'm so glad you brought up the word love.
I I think that's it.
You know, we wanna help people, and I think itcomes back to that that that same meet internal
(26:26):
meeting that I went to.
The the head of my whole division of my companyat the end of the conference literally brought
up Bob Marley.
Yeah.
And he and and he said, all you need is love.
And I think that's you know, companies willtalk about being patient centric, employee
centric, whatever it is.
I think that wanting to help people comes fromlove.
(26:49):
Right?
Just people can interpret that however theywant.
I know it it it might sound squishy, whatever,but I think that's what it comes back to.
Right?
If you authentically wanna help people, whetherit's a patient, an employee, a a friend, That's
what it's about and and how you help them.
And I think the the networking aspect is hugefor that.
Right?
Because, again, I don't know everything, but Iknow somebody that maybe knows somebody or they
(27:11):
did.
There's a lot of people that know a lot ofdifferent things.
And if you can figure out how to make thoseconnections and help those people, that's how
you express that love and help them with thethe issue that they have.
It might not be an issue to you.
It might not be an issue to someone else.
But if it is to that person, I don't care ifyou're the richest person in the world.
They still have problems.
Right?
And there's a way that you can help somebody
Yeah.
(27:31):
Whether it's through a connection or a simpleaction.
And I think it it all comes back to that sortof thing.
And one other point, I I'd write a few thingsdown because I have too many things going off
from what you guys
are doing.
But the other thing is don't don't approach itas what do I get out of this?
It's it's always and it's the same thing inmedical affairs.
What's in it for them?
How do you help someone else?
Because I think a lot of times too, one of myfavorite things, and Kendra said this all the
(27:55):
time, like, she would have KOL say to her,like, what company do you work for again?
Because she's not going in with an agenda andtrying to push something.
It's how do I help them?
And some of the best relationships I've seenher develop is she's fantastic with helping
people and making those relationships.
It's finding you you hear what their problemis.
(28:16):
And, maybe I can't solve, but I can connect youto someone who can, or I'll go dig up
information and give that to you.
Might have nothing to do with what my company'sdoing, but it solves your problem.
Now we have that relationship almost all thetime, and and she doesn't do it for this
reason, but everybody always well, how can Ihelp you back then?
What can I do for you?
And I think that a lot of that developsdevelops that relationship, whether it's
(28:38):
personal, professional, whatever.
And I think those sort of things, if you'refocused on how you can help people, the returns
are gonna come.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
No doubt.
I totally agree.
And I think, especially since we're this is anMSL podcast and we're we're talking to MSLs and
MSL leaders and aspiring MSLs, it it it's it'sall about the other person.
(29:01):
It should be.
It should always be.
I'd rather help a person that can't do anythingfor me anyway.
Right?
I mean, I think, to me, that's the mostfulfilling thing you can do.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Awesome.
You were gonna say something, Kirsten?
Oh, I just I'm I'm agreeing with what Joshsaid, and I think I think, you know, coming
(29:22):
from a health care background as a clinicianand just being wired this way towards it's a
service and a care of others.
And I think when you have that mindset, whenyou're reaching out to people, I think that I
think that is seen.
If that's part of who you are and how youoperate your life, I think that comes through.
(29:43):
I've never I've never really, had an issuewhere someone was skeptical about why I was
reaching out, and I and I I'd have to unpackand try to figure out what is it about what I'm
doing.
I'm not sure I could tell you that because Ithink I again, this is just an area of my life
I don't overthink.
And then I think kinda talking about that riskpart, given that there's really no downside to
(30:10):
this, I think about what is the upside that youpotentially would miss out on.
And in the case of Josh, I would miss out onhaving this wonderful friend and colleague,
that lives, what, five, ten minutes from me?
So that so I think about it.
Take take try not to see it as a risk, but ifyou do see it as a risk, take it because it's
(30:32):
not it's not one that has a downside at allthat I can see.
And feel free to disagree with me, but I justit's one I'd have a hard time seeing what what
you stand to lose by by making sure
that That's great advice.
That's great advice.
Hey.
Can we talk about, like, the emergency pizza,get togethers?
(30:54):
Can we talk about that?
Yes.
Josh because I know that's a part of that's apart of this friendship.
So who wants to explain that?
Oh, gosh.
Well, Josh is probably one of the only people Iknow who can clear his schedule in about ten
seconds.
With all of the plates he has on sticks, he'sable to juggle really well.
(31:19):
So sometimes you just have to have an emergencypizza.
And, Tom, you're welcome to join us too if youcan get on a plane.
Listen.
I love any kind of pizza.
Emergency pizza.
I love cold pizza.
I love pizza with stuff on it.
I love pizza plain.
So, yeah, man.
Sign me up.
Sign me up.
It's the nice thing about having that localnetwork too.
Right?
Is Yeah.
(31:39):
You have someone close, and and I have it withother people too that don't live close, and
they'll either shoot a message or call or I'llmake time for it.
Right?
Again, that's that's important to me toprioritize that and help people how I can.
I I love that you brought up the local network.
Like I said, I met another friend in Boulder.
You're even closer to me than him.
(32:00):
I recently reached out to someone on LinkedIn,same sort of thing.
I saw they had similar background.
They worked in gene therapy.
They worked in rare disease.
All this overlap with me.
Saw they were in the Denver area.
So I sent out a request, got this message backsaying, oh, you know, I see your I I live in a
town called Erie.
I'm like, oh, I I live in Erie too, you know,and we just keep narrowing it down narrowing it
(32:22):
down.
We haven't met in person yet because this wasjust literally in the last week or two here
that we started doing this.
We I finally said exactly what neighborhood,what area of the neighborhood, because it's a
relatively big neighborhood that we just movedinto.
And she's like, we can't be far away.
So I'm like, this is my address.
We're, like, seem like a trustworthy person.
She sends hers back, and I put it into GoogleMaps.
(32:44):
It's literally 450 feet from my house.
It's the next block over.
And I'm like, how can I not be connected toyou?
Like, we're we literally can walk to eachother's houses.
I'm sure our kids are gonna be at the same poolthis summer.
Like, I wanna know who that is instead of goingto a pool.
Some are seeing these people that I essentiallydon't know even though they're my neighbors.
Like, now I have a professional connectionthat's probably already gonna be a friend of
(33:09):
mine
Yeah.
500 feet from my house.
Crazy.
Awesome.
Well, let's let's, let's start to wrap this up.
I have one more question for both.
Same question for both of you guys.
So, Kirsten, if you could leave listeners withone final thought about courage and bravery and
opportunity and, you know, just buildinggenuine relationships through networking, what
(33:34):
would it be?
I think it's just really to understand theworld we live in now.
We are a bit siloed.
We work a lot of us work remotely.
We work in in different ways than, say, peopleworked ten, twenty years ago.
And so we have tools and ways to connect us ifif we use them.
(33:55):
And I think, again, using those tools in a waythat's that where your authentic self comes out
and you're just, using them as as the way tomake that connection is is something to just
embrace, really.
And, again, for the overthinkers out there, Isee you and I hear you.
(34:16):
I would maybe try to put that to the sidebecause I think this is an area where it just
doesn't come into the the equation much.
And, again, I would if there's anyone who hashaving trepidation over this, send me a
LinkedIn message.
Find me, because I think there's just so muchvalue in getting to know people, and then also
(34:38):
connecting people with other people.
It's just it's the way it's the way we dothings now, and I think it's exciting and fun.
And and there's just everything to gain andnothing to lose.
Awesome.
Josh, what about you?
Same question.
Like, what advice do you have for folks?
You know, be authentic.
Be who you are.
Don't be afraid to put things out there.
(34:59):
Don't have that fear of failure.
You know, again, it's not the end of the worldif you don't connect with every person in the
world.
I know a lot of people.
I don't know everybody.
There are more there are more people out there.
And even if you do connect with someone andthey're not you're not aligned, it's not the
end of the world.
There will be people.
You won't you won't find the people you alignthe most most with if you don't try to get out
(35:19):
and interact with people.
Right?
And I think, you know, underlying it all, I Ilove what Kirsten was saying.
I mean, are social creatures.
Right?
Yeah.
I don't care if you're introverted,extroverted, whatever.
It's just naturally what we are.
And I think, you know, having community andhaving that support and knowing where to go and
and meet that is it's everything in every everyarea of life.
(35:40):
You going going it alone is you might go fastagain.
Right?
But together, you go far.
And I think that's that's networking opensthose doors for you.
%.
Awesome.
Well, guys, this was great.
I appreciate you both.
I love your story, and I love your friendship.
And you guys are amazing.
(36:01):
So thank you both for being here and forsharing it.
Yeah.
Thanks for having us.
It's always a blast.
I could do this all day.
Yeah.
You can.
Me too.
Well and, guys, thank you for all your supportof this show.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for sharing this with other people.
Appreciate all your support, and we will seeyou next time.
Thanks, guys.
Okay, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
Exciting, exciting topic and guests today.
I have a repeat guest.
One of your favorites, Josh Yoder, is back withus.
Josh, welcome.
Thank you.
Glad to be here.
Thanks for the invite.
Always been fun.
And now we have Josh's buddy, and we're gonnaget into that story.
(00:25):
Kirsten Borby.
I get that right?
Did I say that right?
I'm terrible with names, but I got that right.
And I wanted to start this off by do you guyswanna do, like, a disclaimer kinda thing?
Either of you?
You want me to do it?
Either way
is good.
I think it's pretty standard.
Right?
These are our opinions, not the opinions of anypast or present employ employers.
(00:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
For sure.
And, you know, would just, you know, gotta berespectful to, you know, to the yeah.
Exactly.
So but so, guys, we're gonna talk today aboutand so, basically, I had met Kirsten through
Josh.
(01:09):
We met at MAPS, had a conversation.
She tells me about how these guys met.
And I was like, wait a second.
That is like an amazing, like, tale of, like,networking and friendship and bravery.
So that's why, like, if you look at this if youthink, like, the title's kinda click baity,
(01:30):
it's it is for on purpose because it it's allthose things.
So I, Kirsten, I'm going to start with withyou.
And if you want to do a quick introductionfirst, and then we can kind of get into the
story.
Is that cool?
Sure.
Well, I'm Kirsten Borby, and it's great to behere.
(01:52):
Thanks for inviting me onto podcast, Tom, andgreat to be here with Josh too.
I'm an internal medicine physician by trainingand experience, and I've spent the last four
years in industry, in a variety of differentroles.
And today's topic is just something I'm reallypassionate about, which is people.
The science is something that I've alwaysloved, but people are really at the center of
(02:15):
everything I've done in my life.
So thanks for letting me talk about that.
And we're so excited, and I can't wait for youto share the story.
So take us back and and let's talk about andyou if you could tell us the story of how and
why you originally reached out to Josh and,like, what you were expecting from that
(02:37):
communication.
Yeah.
So that's a that's a great question, and I'llwind it all the way back to, I've been
listening to the podcast for probably fiveyears.
I love podcasts.
I listen to them when I run.
And in this particular case, I had beenlistening to this episode, and I loved the
(03:00):
topic.
I loved the authenticity of the conversation.
And I've kinda developed a habit of when I seesomething that intrigues me about either the
people or what they're talking about, I go lookthem up, and I see if I can find them.
And and I really, just go for a reach out.
And so, when I saw that Josh actually had inhis LinkedIn that he lives in the Denver
(03:24):
Metropolitan Area, I thought, oh, we could beneighbors.
So I really just made an authentic reach outjust really to say, hi, and I'm here.
We're in the same industry and just sayinghello, really, and sharing how much I enjoyed
what he had said on the podcast.
(03:45):
So Josh and I do a podcast.
You you hear it.
You're inspired.
You reach out to him.
And then, Josh, you see this message comethrough.
And what did you think?
Like like, what stood out?
What made you respond?
What was your side of it?
Sure.
(04:05):
I love networking with people anyway.
I think we'll get into the differences, the theway people approach it and all that, I think.
But to me, it's fun.
Right?
I I'm with Kirsten.
Like, I got into all this stuff to help people.
Right?
I I I think most people get into science andmedicine for that reason.
It is interesting, but it's a way to helppeople.
(04:26):
I think networking is the same way.
Right?
You you meet a bunch of people.
Nobody knows everything about everything.
I've worked some with some incredibly smartpeople that feel like they know everything.
They still know everything.
There's always, you know, that that value inhaving different people, different
perspectives, the the diversity of thought andbackground into that.
I view networking as a way to just make thoseconnections.
(04:47):
Right?
I don't have to know anything.
If I know you know something and I know Kirstenknows something, I can put you two together and
get out of the way and let you guys do awesomework and that that help people.
Right?
So Mhmm.
Almost any outreach I get, I'm going to be opento it.
And I've told Kirsten this.
I give everybody a chance.
Just the people that are duds, don't keepinteracting with.
Right?
So I I think in general, like, I get a messagelike that.
(05:10):
I'm like, hey.
You're in the area.
Let's let's explore this, and let's see, youknow, where it goes.
I think some of my best friends I've met in mylife, in my personal life, have come through
LinkedIn, have just reached out and and, youknow, that same sort of thing.
This is the connection we have.
Let's talk about it, and then you just throwthings out there, find where the commonalities
(05:30):
are, and kinda move forward from there, Ithink.
I love your story about maps.
I I was gonna go to maps for the first timethis year.
I've still not been to that.
Started a new company that you introduced meto, like, last year.
Started there in January.
Turned out we had an internal meeting at thesame time.
On my entire flight going to that meeting, Iwas texting with multiple people saying, like,
(05:52):
oh, you're gonna be at Match.
You're gonna be at Match.
You guys need to meet each other.
And to me, that that's just I I'd rather bethere.
I love hanging out with friends.
A lot of people there that I like that I don'tsee all the time.
But if I can put two other people together thatcan interact with one another and get positive
outcomes from it, I'm just as happy from that.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Yeah.
I love it.
I love the way this whole thing kindaoriginated.
(06:16):
It reminds me too.
So Kirsten said she heard me on the podcast.
She didn't just hear me.
She heard me and Kendra.
And this is the third time I've been on yourpodcast.
Every time it's been with another person, and II love that too.
It's not about coming on and talking aboutsomething what I know.
Mhmm.
Or I workshop at a conference, whatever, Ialways tell people, like, everybody in this
room collectively knows way more than I do.
(06:38):
Let's get all our thoughts together.
So it was on with Kendra.
Was on with Linda.
Now I'm with Kirsten.
Like, I love that aspect of it too.
Yeah.
I didn't think of that.
That's right.
It was always with other people.
And great episodes.
Like, just awesome.
I love both
of smart enough to do this on my own, Tom.
Come on, man.
Don't you say that.
Not true.
(06:58):
That's not true.
But you you actually, the episodes were bothreally, really good.
And, guys, for those of you listening, go backbecause one of them the the first one was about
how to architect a presentation for an MSLinterview.
So if you have an interview coming up, Josh andKendra do an amazing job in that episode.
(07:21):
And then the other one is with Linda Trailer,and it's a book review for our one of our
favorite books, which is Never Split TheDifference by Chris Voss, which is an amazing
book.
I would listen to that too, and I read thebook.
So side note.
Okay.
So Kirsten, what motivated you to to, like,reach out and take that risk even though you
(07:45):
didn't really know, like, how Josh mightreceive it?
Yeah.
No.
It's a great question.
And I will say so Josh and I, we have a lot ofsimilarities in our personality, but I will
also say we have some differences, and we'velaughed about these differences.
I am by nature an overthinker partly, I think,because being an internal medicine physician,
(08:08):
it's part of the job.
If you're not overthinking, you're you'reyou're probably not doing right by your
patients.
So I do feel like when I when I think aboutrisk, I always think about upside and downside.
And in the case of reaching out to somebody, Ithink of the downside as zero and the upside as
(08:30):
unlimited.
So from my perspective, I didn't really see anyrisk in it, and I didn't really have any
expectation.
And I would say when I do reach out to peopleor when I have reached out to people, I don't
have an expectation of anything on the otherend of it.
And perhaps that attitude helps me deal withthe fact that it could be anything.
(08:54):
It maybe it maybe someone doesn't respond, butI will say more times than not, people are are
pretty responsive.
And I actually think people are happy whenothers are curious about their lives and what
they're doing, and they're happy to share theirstories.
And, I think there's just so much to gain fromthat when you don't attach any expectation to
(09:16):
it on the back end.
Yeah.
I like what you said there.
When you don't attach any expectation on theback end.
Because I think a lot of times when I seepeople networking, they don't take the best
approach because they make it all aboutthemselves.
And it's just like, hey, I came across yourprofile and I need you to help me with this.
(09:39):
And guys, that's just that's that's not theapproach.
And I know that that's not the approach thatyou took when you reached out to Josh.
But getting back to this question abouthesitancy and like risk and reaching out, the
other thing I hear from a lot of people,especially people in our coaching program, we
talk about this a lot.
(09:59):
And there's this kind of fear and nervous.
People get very nervous when networking andreaching out.
So Josh, I wanna hear from you and yourperspective on this.
Like what advice would you give to, let's say,job seekers or just career professionals who
(10:21):
are nervous about networking and and takingthat step?
Yeah.
I think it's it's probably common in anythingyou're doing, whether it's networking, whether
it's starting a business, learning things.
It's fear of failure.
Right?
Don't be afraid of that.
You're I mean, Michael Jordan has a famousquote, right, about, you know, the number of or
(10:44):
I don't know if it's a direct quote, but heknows the number of game winning shots that he
missed too.
Right?
And he's like, you don't you don't make thosegame winning shots without without taking them.
Right?
Yeah.
But you're
gonna miss some of them.
You're not always gonna be successful.
Not nothing's gonna be a % successful.
Tell my kids that all the time.
You learn something new, you're gonna you gofail.
You go keep doing it.
You go keep getting better at it.
(11:04):
Right?
You know, you get back on the horse kind ofthing.
I think you just have to keep working atthings.
And quite honestly, especially in fieldmedical, I think this is exactly perfect
training essentially for reaching out to KOLs.
Talk to any what's your what's your hit rate onsending a blind email to a KOL that you don't
know.
Right?
Right.
Oh, percentage.
The same thing's gonna happen here.
(11:25):
Not everybody's gonna respond.
Some people, whether they don't have interest,some people don't have time.
I've had people reach out to me, and I don'tget back to them immediately.
If they follow-up, maybe I will, or maybe I'llbe going through messages a couple weeks later
when I have time, and I'll get back to them.
It's not a personal thing.
Right?
I think it's it's just the nature of what itis.
And I a little bit in field medical, I thinkpeople are open to connecting a little bit more
(11:49):
than they are in some fields, and I think youdo may get a little bit higher hit rate.
But still, it's not gonna be everybody youreach out to is just gonna be like, oh, this is
great.
Let's do it.
It's not personal.
It's no it's no reflection on you.
I think just go out there and do it and seewhere it goes.
I mean, I I'm I'm a big fan of just trying it,and you don't have to I I I think you wanna be
(12:10):
a little intentional.
Right?
I don't blast every single person on LinkedInand say, hey.
Let's connect.
Right?
It it has to be I think, like Kirsten said, younoticed, oh, this person had something
interesting.
We have something common in our background.
What's your reason for reaching out?
And tell the people that.
Right?
We went to the same university.
I saw you played this sport.
I I don't care what the connection is.
It can be at any year of your life.
(12:30):
I do this personally too.
We'll be walking through a restaurant orsomething else.
I'll someone I like their shirt or their shoesand, like or start some conversation.
My kids are like, do you know them?
Like, I do now.
Right?
It's there's just put ideas out there, right,and and be open to it.
I think you have to be a little open to the theopportunity and the fortuitousness that's out
(12:52):
there too and and not be afraid of that.
I'm not offended if someone doesn't wanna havea conversation.
I don't know what's going on in their life.
Maybe they have a bad day.
They have a relative that's sick.
Their mind's somewhere else.
It who knows what it is.
But I think if you don't try, you know, it'sWayne Gretzky does have a a direct quote.
You know, a % of the shots you don't take,don't go in.
Right.
(13:12):
So if you don't put it out there into theworld, you're you know the answer already.
It's no.
Well and, you know and I love I love thatpoint.
I and I think it's it's really good advicebecause I think that maybe expectations are a
little off with with a lot of people where theyget frustrated or they take it personally if
(13:34):
they're not getting a lot of responses.
It should be the opposite.
You should and I'm not saying I don't likesaying, hey, lower your expectations because I
don't wanna demotivate people.
But don't be offended if you're not getting aresponse from everyone.
And like Josh said, I don't know, they couldjust be busy or there could be something going
(13:57):
on in their life.
You just may have gotten them a lot a lot ofthis is timing.
So just keep that in mind and and do the reps.
So if you're a job seeker and you arenetworking with folks and sending out LinkedIn
connection request, for example, do the reps.
(14:19):
Meaning, you know, be consistent.
Try to do five to 10 a day, and then at the endof the week, you are gonna have a bunch of new
connections.
So that's all part of the whole networkinggame.
But so, Kirsten, let's go back to this firstconversation that you had with Josh.
How did you prepare for that?
(14:40):
And was there anything that you didintentionally to make a good impression?
I actually went I knew you were gonna ask methis question, so I actually went back to the
original LinkedIn message.
Oh, no way.
Because I had to think, because honestly, in mymind, I I really like I said, I'm such an
(15:00):
overthinker in some aspects of my life, but asfar as connecting with people, I don't
overthink that.
I actually think that there's such value, whichI think gets missed by the term networking
because that puts some type of value on whattype of interaction you're trying to have when
it's really just meeting people just for thesake of the wonderful people that they are and
(15:23):
that you meet.
So I I think when I made this reach out, Ididn't think too much about it.
I just I and I admittedly, with both of yousince I mean, Tom, I've been listening to the
podcast for five years.
When I met you at MAPS, I felt like I alreadyknew you for five years.
Now I I realized that was one-sided.
(15:43):
And in the case of reaching out to Josh, Ialready felt like I knew him.
I mean, you you get a lot of you get a a niceread into people when you hear them speak and
you hear them interact with somebody.
And so I actually I didn't really prepare forit.
It was just a short message, And I mentionedthat the proximity with where we live, and that
(16:07):
was really all there was to it.
I I don't think that I necessarily thoughtabout it more than that.
Well, I but that's a great approach, though,because you do have that in common.
But where you're where you reside, like, youhave that in common, and that really is enough.
(16:27):
You know, I mean, you know, Josh, as as healready said, is such an is such a great guy,
and he's so easygoing that I asked thequestion, but it didn't matter with Josh.
It's gonna matter with someone else, though.
So what I wanna point out and and give youkudos for is that you found the connection.
(16:48):
And I encourage others that when you'rereaching out to people, you're very tactful and
researched, and find some kind of connection orsomething that you could mention.
Even if it's a compliment or maybe they justreleased they got promoted or they released a
paper, they celebrated a birthday, whatever.
There's so many different things that you couldfocus on.
(17:08):
But I I definitely love the way you didn'tyou're normally an overthinker.
You didn't overthink this.
You just went for it.
But I will say too, when I met you, I you saidit's one-sided because you thought you know,
you've been listening to the podcast.
(17:29):
You felt like you knew me.
I felt like I knew you.
You just have that personality where and I saidthat to Josh.
I'm like, oh my god.
You know, I met Kirsten.
She's awesome.
I feel like I've known her for my whole life.
So it's crazy how things come full circle.
And I think you hit the nail on the head there.
And Josh and I I mean, while we can speak onthis topic, it's maybe a little unfair because
(17:53):
we have a personality that lends itself verynaturally to human connections, and I think you
do, Tom, as well.
So we are, kinda all cut from the same cloth inthat way.
And so these are things that for me are areeasy.
They're fun.
I enjoy it, and I've been this way my wholelife.
(18:14):
And I don't see myself changing, and I don'tthink Josh will be changing anytime soon
either.
So so it is I do feel like, you know, I I thinkit's important to speak to people who maybe
don't have that, you know, that side tothemselves naturally.
I think it can be cultivated.
But, again, I just think there doesn't need tobe so much fear in these types of things.
(18:38):
And I do find that people are very receptive toto being reached out to in an authentic way.
I don't think it I don't think it needs to be afrightening experience.
Yeah.
No.
I've listen.
I totally agree, and I think that that's agreat message because I think a lot of people
do overthink this.
(18:59):
And they get in their own head, and thenthey're paralyzed, and then they never send the
message, and they never do the reach out.
And then just like Josh said, you you know, ifyou don't take any shots, you're not gonna
you're not gonna score.
So getting back to your relationship andfriendship, like, at what point was there a
(19:20):
shift from this, like, professionalconversation to, like, a true friendship?
Like, was there, like, a specific moment thathappened?
As I say this, it almost reminds me of, like,that scene in Step Brothers where, like, did we
just become best friends?
It might have been like that.
(19:41):
I
don't know, Josh.
I'll let you answer that one.
No.
I think it was pretty quick.
And sorry.
My my ADHD is all over the place.
You guys keep saying these things, and I have,like, a hundred different examples for each
each part of it.
And but I think for this specifically, I mean,I I think it was pretty quick.
Right?
I think when people match energy like that, itit just naturally flows, at least for me.
(20:01):
I think you do make a good point, Kirsten.
It doesn't naturally flow for everyone, andthere are people that get into it, you know,
kind of a little more hesitantly and step intoit.
And and I think, again, I know we'll talk moreabout this too, but, like, one of the things is
people like, oh, yes.
You know, networking's for extroverts.
Right?
I know I know plenty of introverts and andKirsten too with the overthinking thing.
(20:22):
My wife's the same way, very much anoverthinker.
I've been my mom is too.
I've been planning for this my whole life.
I I talk to people all the time and kind oftalk them off the ledge when I need to.
But I think, you know, sometimes people peoplewill say, meet my wife, and they're like, she's
introverted, really?
Like, we have a great conversation.
And I feel like there are so many introvertsthat are such good connectors with people.
(20:44):
They just don't go do it and don't go out andkind of walk into a room and meet everybody
like we might.
Right?
But once they connect with someone and and kindof get to know them, trust them a little bit,
they're they're great conversationalists.
Right?
Some of the best MSLs I know are are hugeintroverts.
I another friend that I have worked with, sheworked on my team, multiple different
(21:05):
companies.
She'll go to one of these medical affairsconferences.
She's like, I've had enough of this.
I I I'm done peopling.
Right?
For me, that it gives me energy.
Right?
People are always like, oh, you're so highenergy.
I'm like, yeah.
One because you're with me.
I'm around people.
That's that's where I get my energy.
I love it.
I'll whether it it's gonna get to work, it'sgonna get to personal stuff, whatever, but,
(21:27):
like, I love interacting with people.
I tell people all the time one of my favoriteparts of traveling is getting an Uber or Lyft
because I don't care if it's a five minute rideor an hour ride.
I'm probably gonna know that person's lifestory by the time we get out of the car because
I'm just curious.
And I think that's another thing.
It it's it's good in medical affairs.
It's good in personal interactions.
Just be genuinely curious and and ask questionsthat interest you.
(21:49):
You'll see what lights other people up, right,and and keep talking about that.
I find almost everything interesting, so it's alittle bit easier to do that.
Right?
But I don't think you have to just beextroverted to to make this work.
Right?
You can, again, have those intentional reachouts, have a reason to reach out, put it in a
message.
It doesn't have to be five paragraphs.
I I have another good friend in Boulder rightnow.
(22:12):
Same thing.
We met on LinkedIn last year.
He reached out.
He said, you know, I'm and he's in theinvesting world.
Right?
Not and he had biotech band.
He was trying to learn more about meta affairs.
Literally, like, I went back and looked up thatmessage too because, like, Kirsten sent me the
the message that she initially wrote.
I'm like, I remember we were at I he came tothe MSL conference with me last year,
(22:33):
introduced him to people, and the guy knows somuch stuff in this world.
I'm like, you think you're not, like, digginginto this the same way people do scientifically
and medically, but he knows more about thepharma world than anyone I've ever met.
Just history of drugs, how all thesetransactions happen and stuff.
And I'm like, you're opening my eyes to adifferent a different world.
Right?
So I and someone asked us at that conference,like, how did you reach out?
(22:57):
What did you what was your message?
And he pulled it up, and, literally, it waslike, two, three sentences.
You know, this is what I do.
This is what I'm interested in learning.
Let's you know, are you open to talkingsometime?
We met up, same sort of thing.
I was at his wedding over the holidays lastyear.
I, you know, flew to South Carolina fromvisiting family in PA kind of thing.
So I think it's that that thing where you youreach out with, you know, what about you
(23:22):
interested me?
What's our connection?
You know, where where does it go from here?
If you hear back, great.
If you don't, it's fine too.
And and just follow that interest.
Right?
I think it's about it's about the those sort ofthings of you get we have this piece of
interest, like Kirsten said.
We don't align everywhere, but sometimes thoseopposite parts can kinda complement each other
(23:46):
as well.
Right?
So I think it's that sort of thing, but I don'tknow.
For me, our our conversation was so natural.
Again, we kind of have that personality that Ithink the the friendship started at the same
time the conversation started.
Yeah.
That completely.
Sorry if I I'm in different directions there.
You guys just make me think of a lot ofdifferent things while
(24:07):
you're talking.
No.
No.
Listen.
Actually, there's a lot to unpack there, andand I like first of all, if I I wanna point
out, you had said something that I think isreally important, and and that is, you know,
you said you don't need five paragraphs.
Like, you absolutely do not.
As a matter of fact, you wanna keep it briefbecause people aren't gonna read the five
(24:27):
paragraphs.
Yep.
You know, get to the point, make it brief, makeit heartfelt and genuine.
That's the most important thing.
And, you know, Josh, you're a master at this,man.
You're so easy to talk to, and you're such anatural, and you genuinely really enjoy people
(24:50):
and love people.
So it's so easy for you.
And, like, now Kirsten, now that I know you,you're the same way.
You're so easygoing and easy to talk to, andyou have this curiosity about you.
For the people that are listening that may notlike, it may not come as naturally to you, one
(25:19):
of the things that I wanna point out is is beyourself.
Don't try to be someone else because that'swhere people struggle, is where they try to put
themselves in a box or be something thatthey're not.
Take these best practices, curiosity, makingthe right connections, being researched, all of
the approaches and things that we're talkingabout, but do it on your terms and in your own
(25:42):
way.
Because I think that the way people get intotrouble is when they try to be something
they're not.
A %.
I I love that you used the word authenticity.
I think it's it's everything, honestly, and Ithink it's how you make connections.
Right?
If you're pretending you're into something oryou're trying to be someone you're not, I mean,
I have this conversation with people a lot,but, like, I can't stand being self
(26:06):
promotional.
Right?
Just be authentic.
And I think that's how you find those realconnections.
Right?
When you dig into stuff, it's gonna be clear ifsomeone's really into it or not.
So I think that authenticity goes a long way.
I'm so glad you brought up the word love.
I I think that's it.
You know, we wanna help people, and I think itcomes back to that that that same meet internal
(26:26):
meeting that I went to.
The the head of my whole division of my companyat the end of the conference literally brought
up Bob Marley.
Yeah.
And he and and he said, all you need is love.
And I think that's you know, companies willtalk about being patient centric, employee
centric, whatever it is.
I think that wanting to help people comes fromlove.
(26:49):
Right?
Just people can interpret that however theywant.
I know it it it might sound squishy, whatever,but I think that's what it comes back to.
Right?
If you authentically wanna help people, whetherit's a patient, an employee, a a friend, That's
what it's about and and how you help them.
And I think the the networking aspect is hugefor that.
Right?
Because, again, I don't know everything, but Iknow somebody that maybe knows somebody or they
(27:11):
did.
There's a lot of people that know a lot ofdifferent things.
And if you can figure out how to make thoseconnections and help those people, that's how
you express that love and help them with thethe issue that they have.
It might not be an issue to you.
It might not be an issue to someone else.
But if it is to that person, I don't care ifyou're the richest person in the world.
They still have problems.
Right?
And there's a way that you can help somebody
Yeah.
(27:31):
Whether it's through a connection or a simpleaction.
And I think it it all comes back to that sortof thing.
And one other point, I I'd write a few thingsdown because I have too many things going off
from what you guys
are doing.
But the other thing is don't don't approach itas what do I get out of this?
It's it's always and it's the same thing inmedical affairs.
What's in it for them?
How do you help someone else?
Because I think a lot of times too, one of myfavorite things, and Kendra said this all the
(27:55):
time, like, she would have KOL say to her,like, what company do you work for again?
Because she's not going in with an agenda andtrying to push something.
It's how do I help them?
And some of the best relationships I've seenher develop is she's fantastic with helping
people and making those relationships.
It's finding you you hear what their problemis.
(28:16):
And, maybe I can't solve, but I can connect youto someone who can, or I'll go dig up
information and give that to you.
Might have nothing to do with what my company'sdoing, but it solves your problem.
Now we have that relationship almost all thetime, and and she doesn't do it for this
reason, but everybody always well, how can Ihelp you back then?
What can I do for you?
And I think that a lot of that developsdevelops that relationship, whether it's
(28:38):
personal, professional, whatever.
And I think those sort of things, if you'refocused on how you can help people, the returns
are gonna come.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
No doubt.
I totally agree.
And I think, especially since we're this is anMSL podcast and we're we're talking to MSLs and
MSL leaders and aspiring MSLs, it it it's it'sall about the other person.
(29:01):
It should be.
It should always be.
I'd rather help a person that can't do anythingfor me anyway.
Right?
I mean, I think, to me, that's the mostfulfilling thing you can do.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Awesome.
You were gonna say something, Kirsten?
Oh, I just I'm I'm agreeing with what Joshsaid, and I think I think, you know, coming
(29:22):
from a health care background as a clinicianand just being wired this way towards it's a
service and a care of others.
And I think when you have that mindset, whenyou're reaching out to people, I think that I
think that is seen.
If that's part of who you are and how youoperate your life, I think that comes through.
(29:43):
I've never I've never really, had an issuewhere someone was skeptical about why I was
reaching out, and I and I I'd have to unpackand try to figure out what is it about what I'm
doing.
I'm not sure I could tell you that because Ithink I again, this is just an area of my life
I don't overthink.
And then I think kinda talking about that riskpart, given that there's really no downside to
(30:10):
this, I think about what is the upside that youpotentially would miss out on.
And in the case of Josh, I would miss out onhaving this wonderful friend and colleague,
that lives, what, five, ten minutes from me?
So that so I think about it.
Take take try not to see it as a risk, but ifyou do see it as a risk, take it because it's
(30:32):
not it's not one that has a downside at allthat I can see.
And feel free to disagree with me, but I justit's one I'd have a hard time seeing what what
you stand to lose by by making sure
that That's great advice.
That's great advice.
Hey.
Can we talk about, like, the emergency pizza,get togethers?
(30:54):
Can we talk about that?
Yes.
Josh because I know that's a part of that's apart of this friendship.
So who wants to explain that?
Oh, gosh.
Well, Josh is probably one of the only people Iknow who can clear his schedule in about ten
seconds.
With all of the plates he has on sticks, he'sable to juggle really well.
(31:19):
So sometimes you just have to have an emergencypizza.
And, Tom, you're welcome to join us too if youcan get on a plane.
Listen.
I love any kind of pizza.
Emergency pizza.
I love cold pizza.
I love pizza with stuff on it.
I love pizza plain.
So, yeah, man.
Sign me up.
Sign me up.
It's the nice thing about having that localnetwork too.
Right?
Is Yeah.
(31:39):
You have someone close, and and I have it withother people too that don't live close, and
they'll either shoot a message or call or I'llmake time for it.
Right?
Again, that's that's important to me toprioritize that and help people how I can.
I I love that you brought up the local network.
Like I said, I met another friend in Boulder.
You're even closer to me than him.
(32:00):
I recently reached out to someone on LinkedIn,same sort of thing.
I saw they had similar background.
They worked in gene therapy.
They worked in rare disease.
All this overlap with me.
Saw they were in the Denver area.
So I sent out a request, got this message backsaying, oh, you know, I see your I I live in a
town called Erie.
I'm like, oh, I I live in Erie too, you know,and we just keep narrowing it down narrowing it
(32:22):
down.
We haven't met in person yet because this wasjust literally in the last week or two here
that we started doing this.
We I finally said exactly what neighborhood,what area of the neighborhood, because it's a
relatively big neighborhood that we just movedinto.
And she's like, we can't be far away.
So I'm like, this is my address.
We're, like, seem like a trustworthy person.
She sends hers back, and I put it into GoogleMaps.
(32:44):
It's literally 450 feet from my house.
It's the next block over.
And I'm like, how can I not be connected toyou?
Like, we're we literally can walk to eachother's houses.
I'm sure our kids are gonna be at the same poolthis summer.
Like, I wanna know who that is instead of goingto a pool.
Some are seeing these people that I essentiallydon't know even though they're my neighbors.
Like, now I have a professional connectionthat's probably already gonna be a friend of
(33:09):
mine
Yeah.
500 feet from my house.
Crazy.
Awesome.
Well, let's let's, let's start to wrap this up.
I have one more question for both.
Same question for both of you guys.
So, Kirsten, if you could leave listeners withone final thought about courage and bravery and
opportunity and, you know, just buildinggenuine relationships through networking, what
(33:34):
would it be?
I think it's just really to understand theworld we live in now.
We are a bit siloed.
We work a lot of us work remotely.
We work in in different ways than, say, peopleworked ten, twenty years ago.
And so we have tools and ways to connect us ifif we use them.
(33:55):
And I think, again, using those tools in a waythat's that where your authentic self comes out
and you're just, using them as as the way tomake that connection is is something to just
embrace, really.
And, again, for the overthinkers out there, Isee you and I hear you.
(34:16):
I would maybe try to put that to the sidebecause I think this is an area where it just
doesn't come into the the equation much.
And, again, I would if there's anyone who hashaving trepidation over this, send me a
LinkedIn message.
Find me, because I think there's just so muchvalue in getting to know people, and then also
(34:38):
connecting people with other people.
It's just it's the way it's the way we dothings now, and I think it's exciting and fun.
And and there's just everything to gain andnothing to lose.
Awesome.
Josh, what about you?
Same question.
Like, what advice do you have for folks?
You know, be authentic.
Be who you are.
Don't be afraid to put things out there.
(34:59):
Don't have that fear of failure.
You know, again, it's not the end of the worldif you don't connect with every person in the
world.
I know a lot of people.
I don't know everybody.
There are more there are more people out there.
And even if you do connect with someone andthey're not you're not aligned, it's not the
end of the world.
There will be people.
You won't you won't find the people you alignthe most most with if you don't try to get out
(35:19):
and interact with people.
Right?
And I think, you know, underlying it all, I Ilove what Kirsten was saying.
I mean, are social creatures.
Right?
Yeah.
I don't care if you're introverted,extroverted, whatever.
It's just naturally what we are.
And I think, you know, having community andhaving that support and knowing where to go and
and meet that is it's everything in every everyarea of life.
(35:40):
You going going it alone is you might go fastagain.
Right?
But together, you go far.
And I think that's that's networking opensthose doors for you.
%.
Awesome.
Well, guys, this was great.
I appreciate you both.
I love your story, and I love your friendship.
And you guys are amazing.
(36:01):
So thank you both for being here and forsharing it.
Yeah.
Thanks for having us.
It's always a blast.
I could do this all day.
Yeah.
You can.
Me too.
Well and, guys, thank you for all your supportof this show.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for sharing this with other people.
Appreciate all your support, and we will seeyou next time.
Thanks, guys.
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