May 20, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode of MSL Talk, Tom Caravela sits down with Paul Ward for an insightful conversation on the evolving role of Digital Opinion Leaders (DOLs) in Medical Affairs. Sponsored by Medical Watch, this episode explores why DOLs matter, how to identify the right ones, and what tools MSLs can use to engage them meaningfully.
Paul breaks down the do’s and don’ts of digital engagement, shares real-world best practices, and offers his take on how AI is reshaping the space. They also tackle the growing issue of online misinformation and what it means for scientific credibility. Whether you’re already active in the digital arena or just getting started, you’ll walk away with actionable strategies to become a more effective, digitally savvy MSL.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hey, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
I have a very special repeat guest.
You guys know him and love him.
Paul Ward, welcome back to the show.
How are you, buddy?
Tom, I'm great.
Thanks for having me back.
Always a pleasure to be with you.
Dude, you're you're a fan favorite, man.
People guys, just so you know, Paul's done thiswith me a couple of times.
I'd like to I I like to make sure I invite himback regularly.
(00:25):
But if I could, I would have him here everyweek.
That's how good this guy is.
So I'm excited.
You're too kind.
I I was just repeating a couple stories fromsome of our previous podcast about the what do
I do on Monday and some of those things thatstick with you.
So, I I I love it, and I need to thank you onbehalf of all of us in Field Medical for the
(00:46):
great work that you do bringing these podcaststo us.
I told you so many times, but bears repeating.
Like like, this is my gym time.
This is my pot you know, when I'm walkingwalking the dog or on the treadmill.
It's just so convenient, and I learned so muchfrom it.
You've done such a service to the community.
I wanna thank you.
Well, I I couldn't I could never have done thisfor the five years and two hundred and fifty
(01:11):
something episodes without amazing medicalaffairs leaders like you.
So I am grateful for every single one of these,and I'm grateful for our sponsors too.
So we do have a sponsor for this episode, ourdear friends at Medical Watch.
So if you guys are not familiar with MedicalWatch, they will help you understand what HCPs
(01:32):
are saying about your products and diseases onsocial media.
It's really important tool.
Free sign up at medical.watch.
I would encourage you guys to check this out.
Really, really important.
If you're in medical affairs, you need to signup for medical watch.
Just go to medical.watch.
(01:52):
And, you know, so this episode, we're gonna betalking about how medical affairs professionals
should engage with digital opinion leaders orDOL.
So it all kinda ties in all sorta ties in withour sponsor.
So, Paul, let's jump into it.
Sure.
This is a pretty hot topic, the DOL topic.
(02:14):
Can you explain what a digital opinion leaderis, and and how does that differ from, like, a
traditional KOL?
Happy to.
Let me make just a couple disclaimers before weget going, and it's right in line with what you
just said about our sponsor.
First of all, I am not an expert in digitalopinion leadership.
This is something that came my way.
(02:35):
And like most of us in medical affairs andparticularly in the leadership level, I'm
having to learn as we go as to how do weinteract, how do I identify what the right
things to do.
So you'll hear throughout some of my comments.
I mean, I really do think that these thirdparties, like our sponsor today, can be of
tremendous value in helping us all learn,identify, and interact.
(02:56):
So really super good timing there.
So, you know, the others are these views aremine and mine alone, and they do not express
the the the the opinions of b one medicinewhere I am currently employed and plan on being
employed for a long time as long as they'llhave me having a great time here.
So my opinions are mine, and I look forward toit.
(03:17):
So when you think about the digital opinionleader, it's a digital first mentality.
Like, we we we've medical has historically beenvery active with key opinion leaders that are
mostly on the on the academic side.
Right?
And we've had to evolve.
We've seen that evolve into more nursepractitioners and and PharmBs and and PAs, and
(03:39):
we've we've had to adopt and even intocommunity as you've seen the the the role of
medical evolve.
So the digital opinion leader, very different.
They can be key opinion leaders in atraditional key, academic institution, but more
often than not, they're not.
They only about 20% overlap there from what wewould consider a a a traditional KOL and these
(04:03):
digital opinion leaders.
But their presence is really on websites,online forums, podcasts like this, and
specialty sites like Doximity and Twitter or Xand the like.
And so the Internet has really leveled theplaying field in terms of how information gets
disseminated.
They have a huge influence with patients andadvocacy groups and caregivers.
(04:27):
We have to be mindful of medical.
Like, it's not just other physicians thatthey're talking to, although that's certainly a
big part of the of what we're doing and how weengage.
And so the other thing about the Internet andthe way that they're able to disseminate the
knowledge and information, be it good or bad,disseminates much more quickly in this universe
(04:50):
than it does through a peer reviewed journal ora congress where you're waiting months and has
editorial boards and and and others that arelooking at data.
So there's a lot to keep in mind, and we'regonna dig into that, I suspect, here in a bit.
You know, they can be very compelling.
And I think, you know, both HCPs and and andpatients alike like this channel because it
(05:15):
cuts to a lot of the noise.
Like, for patients, what I've heard and whenwhen when we're looking for information and and
scouring the landscape, there's no jargon.
Like, these guys know how to get patient andand communicate with patients just like they do
in their practice without all the medicaljargon, if you will, that traditional KOLs have
(05:35):
that patients sometimes don't understand orhave to grab somebody in the industry or a
family member that's trained to reallydisseminate that information and distill it
into bite sized chunks that they canunderstand.
So really different than a key opinion leader.
Yeah.
And I I appreciate that explanation because Ithink we hear the term.
A lot of people hear the term, and you thinkyou kinda know what it is.
(05:58):
But that's a really good explanation, and Ithink it sets the tone for what we're gonna
talk about, which it leads me.
It kinda answers the next question to to anextent.
But, so why has engaging with d l DOLs becomesuch an important part of medical affairs
strategy?
(06:19):
And I think you covered some of this, but I'dlike to hear from you.
Yeah.
There's I think there's more layers to that.
Great question, Tom.
So, you know, I think part of it is if youreally think the essence of what medical
affairs does is we help educate HCPs.
We understand the landscape.
Digital opinion leaders can you know, they neededucation too.
So I think that's the obvious piece.
(06:40):
And it improves patient care.
I mean, all of us are in medical for one reasonor the other.
You know, you've seen a lot of surveys and talkto people about this.
More often than not, why are you in medicalaffairs?
Why are you doing what you're doing?
It all comes back to improving patient care.
And so if digital opinion leaders are having animpact, in in in that area, then most certainly
medical should, and almost has a responsibilityto engage with these, digital opinion leaders.
(07:07):
I think the other thing is, you know, there's arush to be fast in this world sometimes, and
there's a lot of misinformation that can bedisseminated, maybe maybe to be controversial
or maybe just because of the rush to be first.
You know, some of these digital opinion leadersdon't fully understand the dataset before
they're making comments about that.
(07:29):
And we'll talk about motivation, I'm sure,during the podcast.
But I think all of those are are are veryimportant reasons for us to engage.
And, again, depending upon your therapeuticarea, you you you know I happen to be in
oncology and hematology, a lot of patientsactually develop support networks as a result
of listening and and engaging on some of thesesites and and and and different, you know,
(07:56):
channels to to to learn about their disease andand and what their next step should be.
So, certainly, we've got a lot to learn aboutthis.
I think pharma's behind a lot of otherindustries in understanding this space, but
we're catching up quickly.
Yep.
And what would you say so what are some of thecharacteristics or behaviors, let's call it,
that medical affairs team should look for whenidentifying DOLs in in their therapeutic area,
(08:23):
in their space.
Yeah.
Not surprising to anybody on the podcast isgonna be credentials.
Like, you you need to look for academiccredentials to to give the any bearing.
I mean, any of us can have an opinion.
Right?
But they should, you know, certainly be wewould prefer these opinions be for people that
are well trained and well versed in the in thetherapeutic area that they're commenting
(08:46):
around.
And I think by and large, they are.
But, again, you know, third parties like oursponsor can can help channel and filter some of
those characteristics through that.
I think the other things to looks look for, whoare their followership?
And are they other physicians?
Are they patients?
Are they advocate advocacy groups?
Are they, you know, CBS News or, you know,whatever your favorite news media outlet is?
(09:12):
All of these things are, I think, extremelyimportant.
I think another characteristics to to payattention to is frequency.
How often are they engaging in this way?
Is it just around congress time, or are thesepeople like yourself that have a podcast that's
on a regular cadence that patients andphysicians can really tap into and learn from
on a on a on a regular basis.
(09:35):
And I think just like you're talking tosomebody in a in a congress or in a social
situation, what's the extremeness of theirviews?
Right?
I mean, we live in a day and age where extremebecomes almost the norm.
Right?
I mean, it it it's just hard.
And so are these people really out there justto create controversy and increase their their
(09:55):
viewership and and and followership because ofsome extreme views?
Because let's face it, extreme views get theheadlines sometimes.
Or are they really looking to disseminateinformation in a in a in a more responsible way
to to to care for for patients?
And then I think something that's extremelyimportant for us to think about as a
characteristic is what are their needs?
(10:16):
Do they wanna engage with pharma?
There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot ofanti pharma and biotech sentiment that exists
out there, and some people just wanna reallypoke the bear of it.
It'd be hard for a medical affairs team memberor field medical person in particular to engage
with someone like that if they don't wannaengage and if they're one of their purpose to
(10:38):
to do the podcast is to stir the pot.
So I think being mindful of all of that beforeyou engage is is certainly something that we
should all pay attention to.
Yeah.
You know, as you're as you're talking, it justit's a reminder that when you're looking at an
online personality or brand, they're all uniquein and of themselves.
(11:03):
There's there's some good actors.
There's some bad actors.
There's controversial actors.
So you really do it it becomes a process ofvetting just like anything else.
Yeah.
And, you know, some of it, there might be anentertainment fact.
Like you said, there might actually just be anentertainment factor to it.
So it's a matter of kinda really deciphering.
Let's talk about, like, these platforms ortools for finding and assessing DOLs.
(11:32):
Can you recommend any specific platforms?
Well, our sponsor certainly, you know, is is isone of the better ones.
There there's a bunch of them out there.
I I don't think a week goes by where I'm noteither through LinkedIn or through my email,
someone reaching out to me to to help menavigate the digital opinion leader, water.
So it's certainly out there.
(11:54):
It's been it's been really interesting, Tom,for me to watch how this has evolved.
It's evolved into a very specific skill set inscience and experts in this area.
Whereas even three, four years ago when wefirst started hearing about all of this, it
seemed that, at least on my teams, there wasalways seem to be one person on the team that
(12:17):
was really tech savvy and social media savvywho kinda took it upon his or herself to
educate the rest of the team.
And, at that time, it was Twitter and creatingTwitter deck.
And and and sometimes people would leave thosecalls thinking, what is what is this person
thinking?
I mean, this is crazy.
This is not how we do things in medicalaffairs.
(12:38):
Right?
And now, it's it really is a big part of how wedo things in medical affairs.
So that's that's been, that's been, you know,an evolution.
And then, you know, you look at, you know, lookat Doximity.
You look at all the all the you whatever yourfavorite or least favorite social media outlet
is.
And, you know, I I I I see things on Spotifyall the time on on this.
(13:01):
YouTube is very active where with posting.
And then, you know, honestly, at congressesnow, you see a lot of the top posters.
And when I say posters, I mean people thatpost, information or that tweet information,
during the congress using hashtag ASCO or ASHor whatever congress you're at.
(13:21):
And you see when you walk around sometimes,they'll even have a leaderboard.
So it encourages the behavior a little bit.
I think it's a really interesting mix of atraditional way to receive and disseminate
information at a congress like American Heartor ASCO or, you know, what whatever therapeutic
area that you're in, that they're looking tosay, hey.
(13:43):
We know that people are posting about this, andsome of them already been at the congress.
Some of them can be watching the congressvirtually, but yet they're using the hashtag
and posting and capturing their comments inthat way.
So that that's been, I think, superinteresting.
I don't know.
You how how are you looking at this stuff?
I mean, you you keep abreast of digital opinionleaders.
(14:04):
Any any particular tools that you're using orthat you use as a as an entrepreneur?
Yeah.
Well, I could tell you that, first of all, weare in a time of digital relevancy, meaning you
have to be digitally savvy.
Yeah.
You you just have to be.
Whether you're an entrepreneur, a businessowner, recruiter, a med an MSL, a medical
(14:29):
affairs leader, anybody that's listening tothis, we are in a time where you need to be
digitally savvy.
I I personally think that it's it's importantto be diversified in your approach, but find
because here's the thing.
You need to be where your customers are.
(14:52):
Yep.
You you need to meet your customers where theylive.
That's actually a quote from somebody that wason this podcast.
Shout out to Jason DeMuth, who we were talkingactually about DOLs.
And you don't know what platform of choicemight be for your main customers.
(15:13):
It may be it may be Twitter.
It may it may be YouTube.
It might be LinkedIn.
There's so many you mentioned a bunch of them.
There's so many different platforms now to payattention to.
One of the things that I would recommend is goback.
I did a podcast on social listening recently.
(15:38):
And definitely check out Medical Watch becausethat's what they do.
They're gonna give you this information, andyou're gonna be able to find it.
So you don't have to curate it yourself.
So that's one really good hack.
But you need to be in the right place, findingthe right information, learning what you can,
(15:59):
and then utilizing that strategically.
It's such a good point you bring up, Tom.
And let's face it.
Chances are to be digital savvy means you haveto probably be up more than one digital
platform at a time too.
We we and who who amongst us has time to keeptrack of all of those, which is why Medical
(16:19):
Watch and and and and people like that are soreally beneficial in this space to do that work
for you so you can see the output of it ratherthan spending hours of your time, you know,
bopping from from one platform to the nextseeing what's happening.
So, yeah, they're providing a great service forus that that have, certainly this is part of
their job, but not the main component of ourjob in medical.
(16:42):
Yeah.
And what do you see as as the the biggestmistakes that medical affairs professionals are
making, when trying to engage with DOLs?
Or is it is one of the biggest mistakes notengaging?
Yeah.
I think that's the biggest one.
It's ignoring the opportunity and the influencethat that digital opinion leaders have.
(17:03):
It's it's it's and it's reaching airways andand and public and private, you know, listeners
that that are really hard.
I think there's several other things that thatthat I've seen as this has evolved too.
Medical is not the only one watching thisspace.
(17:23):
Right?
So we all have to learn the ways of workingwith our own company, and that includes looking
at internally with let's face it.
There's a lot of compliance rules around howyou engage.
What materials do you use to engage?
How do you speak to these folks?
Marketing is in this space too.
Right?
Because they've got a brand, and they'reworking on brand awareness.
They've got a digital strategy.
(17:44):
Corporate comms or corporate communications hasa has a strategy, and Olive Farm is trying to
figure out an omnichannel strategy.
Right?
I mean, we've all heard about omnichannel.
Frequently talked about seldom understood bymost of us, but it's it's certainly a big a big
part of budgets now in medical and marketingand and the rest.
(18:08):
And then, again, you know, there's differentdigital opinion leaders for different purposes.
Some are educators.
Some are more on the advocacy side.
Some are more geared towards reviewing, youknow, academic publications and things of that
nature.
So I think that's a that that's something to bemindful of.
And, also, when you're and you you know thisbetter than I.
(18:28):
When you're working as a digital savvyprofessional, your needs are different.
I mean, you need you need information that iseasily distilled and easily communicated.
It's, you know, sending sending a digitalopinion leader a 50 slide deck presentation on
your brand or on your data is probably not thebest way to to meet his or her needs in terms
(18:51):
of how they're gonna be disseminating andcommunicating, you know, that that information.
And then, yeah, I think the other thing too isthis is such a rapidly evolving space.
You You're gonna review this a lot.
And, again, more more reason to use medicalwatch or vendors like them to keep abreast of
this because it's changing, you know, not noton a yearly basis, but, you know, only almost
(19:16):
monthly to monthly, there's there there thereare new players that are that are popping in.
And then I think, again, ignoringmisinformation.
I mean, there's so much misinformation thatthat is out there that needs to be corrected.
And, again, if in medical, if we hear for thebetterment of patient care, we owe it to our
patients that we serve to make sure thatmisinformation gets corrected as quickly as
(19:40):
possible, either either through the person orpersons that portrayed that information
inaccurately or by on on our own just to makesure that that's that that's getting out there.
So I think those are the biggest mistakes.
Mhmm.
I've certainly made a few of them.
So I'm speaking a bit from from experiencehere, Tom.
But, yeah, I I I think that covers the the themajority of what I could think of anyway.
(20:03):
Yeah.
And I'll add that, and I don't know how muchthis ties into it.
But I think one of the and maybe it's a mistakeor maybe it's a little underplayed is not
utilizing AI tools enough.
I think everybody's kinda dabbling and tryingto figure out their way, whether it's ChatGPT,
(20:24):
Copilot.
There are some strategic initiatives from thefrom organizations that are, you know, starting
to really introduce AI tools in practical, youknow, applications for the day to day.
But I think that not embracing it and notutilizing it, especially as it relates to
(20:47):
understanding your KOLs or DOLs or finding youknow, putting the information together, I
think, is a mistake because I really feel likethere's so many really awesome AI tools out
there that can help cut down on the amount oftime it takes to do some of this stuff.
Yep.
It's it's a great it's it's a wonderful pointthat you make.
(21:09):
And I think the other, you know, considerationhere is that what digital opinion leaders are
putting out there in terms of content in anopen source AI model is going to get picked up
by artificial intelligence.
Right?
Right.
It is it actually that magnifies the effects ofinformation or misinformation that they may be
creating?
(21:29):
%.
Yeah.
Which leads me to like, because this is the keyquestion here is how should an MSL or a medical
affairs professional authentically approach aDOL for the first time?
I touched on it, just a minute ago.
(21:50):
First, understand the landscape and the rulesof engagement with your company and figure out
who else is in this space.
And, of course, you know, compliance is alwayson the forefront of our mind too.
So understand the rules of engagement beforeyou engage.
I think that's underscored big bold letterswith flashing lights, underscored in yellow.
(22:10):
Okay?
That's gotta be the first step is understandthat.
And then, you know, you need to understand themotivations.
You know, almost like a key opinion leaderinteraction.
You wouldn't go in there cold.
You wouldn't go in there and just start askingquestions.
You would have to understand the KOL.
MSLs are so very good at, what are theirresearch interests, what are their
(22:30):
publications, where where are they speaking,all of that, and and just the digital
equivalent of that.
What have they posted?
What's been their motivations?
What's been the tone of the again, are theyprovocateurs, or are they medical education?
Are they more patient friendly and focused?
I think I think all of that is interesting.
I think the other thing that occurs to me is,you know, most academics, when you go in and
(22:55):
say that you're a medical science liaison, theyknow what that means, and they know how to
engage with you.
Digital opinion leaders probably have verylittle oftentimes idea what an MSL does.
Are you from sales?
Are you from marketing?
Are you market access?
Are you corporate communication?
So explaining who you are, where you sit in theorganization, and what your goals are, I think
(23:17):
will build some credibility.
And you used a great word too that I had, I hadthought of immediately too, which is authentic.
Be your authentic medical self.
Right?
I think I think that really buys you somecredibility.
You're not there to to, you know, basicallyexpand the brand or grow market share, but
you're there to make sure that information iscorrect and and and understood.
(23:40):
And that people can make their own informeddecisions and say what they like afterwards,
but with knowledge and facts at the at thebasis of, you know, what they're doing.
And then I think, you know, I'm not a digitalopinion leader.
Don't play one on TV, but I would imagine thatmost of them want to have independence.
Like, they don't wanna be a shrill for acompany.
(24:01):
They're doing this for for reasons, not alignedwith marketing your brand or or or or, you
know, working for a pharmaceutical company.
So understand that they need to be seen andaddressed as, unbiased and independent thinkers
just like you would a key opinion leader.
And so do your homework, understandmotivations, you know, look look at where they
(24:24):
went to school.
You know?
All all of that is extremely important.
And I'm guessing most of these folks, giventhat they're digital savvy, you can find a lot
of this online pretty easily because they areused to posting and and communicating through
that vehicle.
So utilize that to your advantage.
Oh, yeah.
And that that's I think that's mandatory as asreally the guiding light of of how you should
(24:51):
at least start and and gain an understandingbefore you engage.
But everything you say and and the reason I usethe
word
authentic is because in this day and age, Ithink that works.
I think people respond to authenticity, waymore now because we are in this digital space
(25:15):
and everybody's out there, and it's soimportant to have your own brand and and to
carry it well and be confident.
But the thing that I worry about and let's talkabout engagement.
And what types of content or interactions areappropriate or inappropriate for MSLs when they
(25:35):
engage with DOLs online?
Yeah.
I think and, again, it's it's really importantto understand rules of engagement.
And, you know, you you you know how MSLsusually have things that are approved for
training Mhmm.
Or showing or for dissemination.
And it's important to know what bucket you'rein because, look, these things could end up
(25:59):
like, when you work with a KOL, something mightmight end up on a screen at a at a congress.
When you're working with a digital opinionleader, it could get end up on YouTube.
Right?
And so you certainly don't want your complianceofficer waking up to something that's not
approved for use with a digital opinion leaderon on a very public forum.
So be extremely mindful of that.
(26:21):
And, again, I think for content, I think, youknow, conversation first.
I I I would say that it's really good to get toknow someone before you bring out the slide
deck and start showing data at Kaplan Meiercurves or adverse event tables.
You you gotta get to know them, and and partnerwith them and understand those motivations
first.
And then, you know, medical leadership.
(26:42):
You know, I I think you have to make sure thateverybody within your chain of command and and
and in other areas are on board with whatyou're doing.
So don't make it a secret mission.
Make it a very public mission that you're goingto be engaging and let medical, you know,
medical affairs leadership know marketingunderstand that you're in there.
Work with comms.
Because this person might be engaging withthree or four people in your company, and you
(27:05):
may not even be aware of it.
Right?
There's there's a lot of people fighting forfor time there, but I think medical really
deserves a spot towards the front of that linewith the with the content and with the with the
information that we have to share in theunbiased way that we that we engage.
Yeah.
And and let's talk about some guardrails.
(27:25):
I'm sure there's gotta be best practices forcompanies, and there's gotta be stuff that's
already in place for DOL engagement to makesure that MSLs are staying safe in their
engagement.
Can you talk a little bit about those?
Yeah.
Maybe, and maybe this is just, me me being alittle slow to the party, Tom.
(27:47):
I don't know.
But, you know, I was mentioning I was at a ainternal meeting this week, and I sat next to
our, executive director of scientificcommunications.
And one of the things that we were chattingabout, over coffee was how we need as an
organization to better understand themotivations and what these folks want.
So we're talking about doing a digital opinionleader, virtual asynchronous ad board to
(28:12):
understand those kinds of things.
So, I'm sure that there are companies that arethat are further along and probably several
that are not as far along.
We're probably right in the middle.
But we certainly recognize the need to betterunderstand this space.
And, you know, I think I think something interms of guardrails, just, you know, use your
(28:32):
emotional intelligence and and and seek firstto understand.
And and and that's why I think, you know,conversation first is so important here.
I think I think the guardrails that you wannaavoid are just going in there and being viewed
as, you know, someone that's doesn't understandwhat what they're doing and their content and
what's happening and and trying to force anarrative or, you know, tools on them that they
(28:59):
may or may not need.
So that I think it's just basic good mannersand it'll look common sense, mixed in with some
emotional intelligence, and then underscoreagain in bright lights that know the landscape
of your company and and who else may beengaging with them.
And if you get all that right, I think you'reon pretty safe ground, but be you know, tread
carefully because that could change at anymoment.
(29:21):
Yeah.
For sure.
Yeah.
And, you know, I'm curious.
This isn't the first episode that I've done onon DOLs.
But since I've been doing this, things havechanged and evolved so much.
And this digital world has just expanded, andwe talked a lot about that earlier.
(29:43):
And, where do you see it going?
Like, what happens in the next, like, three tofive years?
Well, I think you can go up.
Let let's approach that first from I thinkcompanies are gonna invest more in this space.
I think everyone recognizes that, you you know,your previous guest had it right.
My my grandfather would say fish where the fishare.
(30:05):
Right?
You gotta be where where where where people orfish in that case are congregated.
Throwing your throwing the line in a in a pondthat has no fish in it does not yield good
results.
So we understand there's a lot of fish rightnow, and there's a lot of different ponds to go
exploring, in them.
So or or looking for them.
And so that I think I think that's reallyimportant and understand that investment
(30:27):
usually follows opportunity, and pharma isfiguring this out, so watch that space.
I also think that, you know, FDA is watchingthis space very carefully.
And so from a regulatory standpoint, I thinkwe're gonna see more and more guardrails on on
what gets posted and maybe even you know?
(30:47):
And I mentioned earlier the amount ofmisinformation.
CBS News was saying there's more misinformationthan valid information on the Internet, and
that doesn't surprise many of us.
So what what can we do as a as a government,you know, as taxpayers?
What can our government do for us to try toclean that up a bit?
(31:08):
Right?
No one wants this information that's out there.
It's it doesn't help anyone.
And and then I think too, I think consumerswill become more savvy.
And by consumers, I mean patients andcaregivers and health care authorities.
Like, you need to know the source.
You need to check the source out.
Be aware of their credentials.
You know?
(31:29):
Caveat emptor, buyer beware, on on what you'reconsuming.
And you got big decisions to make on yourhealth.
You better be very careful.
It's funny to me sometimes people read labelsin the grocery store, but then they'll be
quoting stuff they heard on the Internet to me.
And I'm like, you have no idea who that personwas, but you know every chemical in your in
(31:50):
your dairy creamer that goes in your coffee.
Right?
And so I think we need to be mindful of both.
Let's put some of those practices into place.
So more investment, more regulation, moresavviness, and then let's just be prepared for
digital and and and and other, you know,channels to increase in their likelihood, of of
(32:11):
impact and influence.
It's only gonna grow.
It's I don't see it shrinking.
How about you?
Yeah.
No.
And it's so funny you talk about themisinformation piece because in one sense,
we're staying saying get out there and andlisten and and be savvy and and all these
things.
And then and then we're like, but make sure youmake sure you know what you're what you're what
(32:32):
you're you're learning.
Make sure that that you're you're you get thisaccuracy of information.
And I think that that it it really does requirethe individual, to be super thorough in, in
their process.
I think that this this really requires it itand I I don't wanna keep using the word
(32:56):
savviness, but I think you do have to usediscernment when you're out there and you're
curating the information and how you're goingto use it and just to be super careful and
double and triple check.
But I do think that the good news is that thereare a lot of reputable sources, tools, like
(33:22):
we've talked about throughout this episode,that can help you with this, to keep you on
track and to make sure that you're that you'renot, you know, making any mistakes.
Yep.
I think you're right.
And, you know, the other the other I only thinkit's interesting.
Whenever I see anything posted, the commentsare always so interesting too.
And I think part of saddiness is looking atwhat's the reaction to the data that you're
(33:46):
seeing on a digital, you know, channel.
What what are people saying about it, and whoare those folks?
Like, oftentimes, you'll see physicianscorrecting other physicians or other patients
that are weighing in on information.
So don't just read the headline.
Dig into the comments and really educate on theresponse.
And if the response is not, overly favorable,be super super critical yourself as to what
(34:10):
you're how you're processing it, and look forthose credentials on the comment sections too.
Yeah.
That's great advice.
What would you say so last question.
What would you say to somebody if there's,like, one thing you could say to somebody
that's like, hey.
I listened to this podcast.
I gotta do a better job with with, you know,with my DOLs, and I gotta get out there and
(34:31):
start, you know, becoming a digital first MSL.
What would what would be the one piece ofadvice you would have for that person?
Yeah.
I I you know, I think as a first step and thefirst piece of advice is get some help here.
I mean, we talked about how many channels thereare and how much none of us can do this alone.
(34:53):
So Medical Watch, thank you for sponsoring.
I think, you know, trying to do this without awithout a third party to guide you is a little
bit trying to navigate the Internet without asearch engine.
I mean, I think you're it's almost malpracticeto begin it without some professional help at
this point in time.
And then partner with them because, you know,the the the third parties are oftentimes way
(35:18):
ahead of us in pharma as to where this isgoing.
And as we talked about at the beginning of thepodcast, they've got time and expertise to do
it.
This is no longer something you can do as ahobby or a pet project or have that one person
on the team that's, you know, looking out fordigital opinion leaders and filling us in in
the five minutes at the end of the team call.
(35:39):
This is big, big, big, big responsibility formedical to get right, and for all the reasons
that we've talked about, not to do it wrong andto understand the scope and influence that,
digital opinion leaders have.
So I think that's how I would, answer yourquestion.
Let's leave it there, man.
That's it.
I I totally agree that we that digital is here.
(36:00):
Maybe you need to embrace it and and just jumpin, man.
And I think you're gonna you're gonna be ableto stay with the curve because it's not going
anywhere.
So, Paul, as always, you're the best, brother.
I really appreciate you coming on.
And this this again, this was, like, thefastest, like, I don't know, thirty, forty
minutes of my entire week talking to you,brother.
(36:23):
Well, I look forward to seeing you soon, and,I'll be, you know, doing all the summer
circuits like you will bump into each othersoon.
Always look forward to it.
And, again, thanks for your great workeducating all of us in field medical on all
these topics.
It's, it's just super.
Keep it up, Tom.
Thanks, Paul.
Appreciate you.
I'll see you at ASCO.
Alright.
Look forward to it.
Thanks, Tom.
Thanks, guys.
Appreciate all your support.
(36:45):
And, if you got value in this, please sharethis with others.
And, we'll see you next time.
Hey, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
I have a very special repeat guest.
You guys know him and love him.
Paul Ward, welcome back to the show.
How are you, buddy?
Tom, I'm great.
Thanks for having me back.
Always a pleasure to be with you.
Dude, you're you're a fan favorite, man.
People guys, just so you know, Paul's done thiswith me a couple of times.
I'd like to I I like to make sure I invite himback regularly.
(00:25):
But if I could, I would have him here everyweek.
That's how good this guy is.
So I'm excited.
You're too kind.
I I was just repeating a couple stories fromsome of our previous podcast about the what do
I do on Monday and some of those things thatstick with you.
So, I I I love it, and I need to thank you onbehalf of all of us in Field Medical for the
(00:46):
great work that you do bringing these podcaststo us.
I told you so many times, but bears repeating.
Like like, this is my gym time.
This is my pot you know, when I'm walkingwalking the dog or on the treadmill.
It's just so convenient, and I learned so muchfrom it.
You've done such a service to the community.
I wanna thank you.
Well, I I couldn't I could never have done thisfor the five years and two hundred and fifty
(01:11):
something episodes without amazing medicalaffairs leaders like you.
So I am grateful for every single one of these,and I'm grateful for our sponsors too.
So we do have a sponsor for this episode, ourdear friends at Medical Watch.
So if you guys are not familiar with MedicalWatch, they will help you understand what HCPs
(01:32):
are saying about your products and diseases onsocial media.
It's really important tool.
Free sign up at medical.watch.
I would encourage you guys to check this out.
Really, really important.
If you're in medical affairs, you need to signup for medical watch.
Just go to medical.watch.
(01:52):
And, you know, so this episode, we're gonna betalking about how medical affairs professionals
should engage with digital opinion leaders orDOL.
So it all kinda ties in all sorta ties in withour sponsor.
So, Paul, let's jump into it.
Sure.
This is a pretty hot topic, the DOL topic.
(02:14):
Can you explain what a digital opinion leaderis, and and how does that differ from, like, a
traditional KOL?
Happy to.
Let me make just a couple disclaimers before weget going, and it's right in line with what you
just said about our sponsor.
First of all, I am not an expert in digitalopinion leadership.
This is something that came my way.
(02:35):
And like most of us in medical affairs andparticularly in the leadership level, I'm
having to learn as we go as to how do weinteract, how do I identify what the right
things to do.
So you'll hear throughout some of my comments.
I mean, I really do think that these thirdparties, like our sponsor today, can be of
tremendous value in helping us all learn,identify, and interact.
(02:56):
So really super good timing there.
So, you know, the others are these views aremine and mine alone, and they do not express
the the the the opinions of b one medicinewhere I am currently employed and plan on being
employed for a long time as long as they'llhave me having a great time here.
So my opinions are mine, and I look forward toit.
(03:17):
So when you think about the digital opinionleader, it's a digital first mentality.
Like, we we we've medical has historically beenvery active with key opinion leaders that are
mostly on the on the academic side.
Right?
And we've had to evolve.
We've seen that evolve into more nursepractitioners and and PharmBs and and PAs, and
(03:39):
we've we've had to adopt and even intocommunity as you've seen the the the role of
medical evolve.
So the digital opinion leader, very different.
They can be key opinion leaders in atraditional key, academic institution, but more
often than not, they're not.
They only about 20% overlap there from what wewould consider a a a traditional KOL and these
(04:03):
digital opinion leaders.
But their presence is really on websites,online forums, podcasts like this, and
specialty sites like Doximity and Twitter or Xand the like.
And so the Internet has really leveled theplaying field in terms of how information gets
disseminated.
They have a huge influence with patients andadvocacy groups and caregivers.
(04:27):
We have to be mindful of medical.
Like, it's not just other physicians thatthey're talking to, although that's certainly a
big part of the of what we're doing and how weengage.
And so the other thing about the Internet andthe way that they're able to disseminate the
knowledge and information, be it good or bad,disseminates much more quickly in this universe
(04:50):
than it does through a peer reviewed journal ora congress where you're waiting months and has
editorial boards and and and others that arelooking at data.
So there's a lot to keep in mind, and we'regonna dig into that, I suspect, here in a bit.
You know, they can be very compelling.
And I think, you know, both HCPs and and andpatients alike like this channel because it
(05:15):
cuts to a lot of the noise.
Like, for patients, what I've heard and whenwhen when we're looking for information and and
scouring the landscape, there's no jargon.
Like, these guys know how to get patient andand communicate with patients just like they do
in their practice without all the medicaljargon, if you will, that traditional KOLs have
(05:35):
that patients sometimes don't understand orhave to grab somebody in the industry or a
family member that's trained to reallydisseminate that information and distill it
into bite sized chunks that they canunderstand.
So really different than a key opinion leader.
Yeah.
And I I appreciate that explanation because Ithink we hear the term.
A lot of people hear the term, and you thinkyou kinda know what it is.
(05:58):
But that's a really good explanation, and Ithink it sets the tone for what we're gonna
talk about, which it leads me.
It kinda answers the next question to to anextent.
But, so why has engaging with d l DOLs becomesuch an important part of medical affairs
strategy?
(06:19):
And I think you covered some of this, but I'dlike to hear from you.
Yeah.
There's I think there's more layers to that.
Great question, Tom.
So, you know, I think part of it is if youreally think the essence of what medical
affairs does is we help educate HCPs.
We understand the landscape.
Digital opinion leaders can you know, they neededucation too.
So I think that's the obvious piece.
(06:40):
And it improves patient care.
I mean, all of us are in medical for one reasonor the other.
You know, you've seen a lot of surveys and talkto people about this.
More often than not, why are you in medicalaffairs?
Why are you doing what you're doing?
It all comes back to improving patient care.
And so if digital opinion leaders are having animpact, in in in that area, then most certainly
medical should, and almost has a responsibilityto engage with these, digital opinion leaders.
(07:07):
I think the other thing is, you know, there's arush to be fast in this world sometimes, and
there's a lot of misinformation that can bedisseminated, maybe maybe to be controversial
or maybe just because of the rush to be first.
You know, some of these digital opinion leadersdon't fully understand the dataset before
they're making comments about that.
(07:29):
And we'll talk about motivation, I'm sure,during the podcast.
But I think all of those are are are veryimportant reasons for us to engage.
And, again, depending upon your therapeuticarea, you you you know I happen to be in
oncology and hematology, a lot of patientsactually develop support networks as a result
of listening and and engaging on some of thesesites and and and and different, you know,
(07:56):
channels to to to learn about their disease andand and what their next step should be.
So, certainly, we've got a lot to learn aboutthis.
I think pharma's behind a lot of otherindustries in understanding this space, but
we're catching up quickly.
Yep.
And what would you say so what are some of thecharacteristics or behaviors, let's call it,
that medical affairs team should look for whenidentifying DOLs in in their therapeutic area,
(08:23):
in their space.
Yeah.
Not surprising to anybody on the podcast isgonna be credentials.
Like, you you need to look for academiccredentials to to give the any bearing.
I mean, any of us can have an opinion.
Right?
But they should, you know, certainly be wewould prefer these opinions be for people that
are well trained and well versed in the in thetherapeutic area that they're commenting
(08:46):
around.
And I think by and large, they are.
But, again, you know, third parties like oursponsor can can help channel and filter some of
those characteristics through that.
I think the other things to looks look for, whoare their followership?
And are they other physicians?
Are they patients?
Are they advocate advocacy groups?
Are they, you know, CBS News or, you know,whatever your favorite news media outlet is?
(09:12):
All of these things are, I think, extremelyimportant.
I think another characteristics to to payattention to is frequency.
How often are they engaging in this way?
Is it just around congress time, or are thesepeople like yourself that have a podcast that's
on a regular cadence that patients andphysicians can really tap into and learn from
on a on a on a regular basis.
(09:35):
And I think just like you're talking tosomebody in a in a congress or in a social
situation, what's the extremeness of theirviews?
Right?
I mean, we live in a day and age where extremebecomes almost the norm.
Right?
I mean, it it it's just hard.
And so are these people really out there justto create controversy and increase their their
(09:55):
viewership and and and followership because ofsome extreme views?
Because let's face it, extreme views get theheadlines sometimes.
Or are they really looking to disseminateinformation in a in a in a more responsible way
to to to care for for patients?
And then I think something that's extremelyimportant for us to think about as a
characteristic is what are their needs?
(10:16):
Do they wanna engage with pharma?
There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot ofanti pharma and biotech sentiment that exists
out there, and some people just wanna reallypoke the bear of it.
It'd be hard for a medical affairs team memberor field medical person in particular to engage
with someone like that if they don't wannaengage and if they're one of their purpose to
(10:38):
to do the podcast is to stir the pot.
So I think being mindful of all of that beforeyou engage is is certainly something that we
should all pay attention to.
Yeah.
You know, as you're as you're talking, it justit's a reminder that when you're looking at an
online personality or brand, they're all uniquein and of themselves.
(11:03):
There's there's some good actors.
There's some bad actors.
There's controversial actors.
So you really do it it becomes a process ofvetting just like anything else.
Yeah.
And, you know, some of it, there might be anentertainment fact.
Like you said, there might actually just be anentertainment factor to it.
So it's a matter of kinda really deciphering.
Let's talk about, like, these platforms ortools for finding and assessing DOLs.
(11:32):
Can you recommend any specific platforms?
Well, our sponsor certainly, you know, is is isone of the better ones.
There there's a bunch of them out there.
I I don't think a week goes by where I'm noteither through LinkedIn or through my email,
someone reaching out to me to to help menavigate the digital opinion leader, water.
So it's certainly out there.
(11:54):
It's been it's been really interesting, Tom,for me to watch how this has evolved.
It's evolved into a very specific skill set inscience and experts in this area.
Whereas even three, four years ago when wefirst started hearing about all of this, it
seemed that, at least on my teams, there wasalways seem to be one person on the team that
(12:17):
was really tech savvy and social media savvywho kinda took it upon his or herself to
educate the rest of the team.
And, at that time, it was Twitter and creatingTwitter deck.
And and and sometimes people would leave thosecalls thinking, what is what is this person
thinking?
I mean, this is crazy.
This is not how we do things in medicalaffairs.
(12:38):
Right?
And now, it's it really is a big part of how wedo things in medical affairs.
So that's that's been, that's been, you know,an evolution.
And then, you know, you look at, you know, lookat Doximity.
You look at all the all the you whatever yourfavorite or least favorite social media outlet
is.
And, you know, I I I I see things on Spotifyall the time on on this.
(13:01):
YouTube is very active where with posting.
And then, you know, honestly, at congressesnow, you see a lot of the top posters.
And when I say posters, I mean people thatpost, information or that tweet information,
during the congress using hashtag ASCO or ASHor whatever congress you're at.
(13:21):
And you see when you walk around sometimes,they'll even have a leaderboard.
So it encourages the behavior a little bit.
I think it's a really interesting mix of atraditional way to receive and disseminate
information at a congress like American Heartor ASCO or, you know, what whatever therapeutic
area that you're in, that they're looking tosay, hey.
(13:43):
We know that people are posting about this, andsome of them already been at the congress.
Some of them can be watching the congressvirtually, but yet they're using the hashtag
and posting and capturing their comments inthat way.
So that that's been, I think, superinteresting.
I don't know.
You how how are you looking at this stuff?
I mean, you you keep abreast of digital opinionleaders.
(14:04):
Any any particular tools that you're using orthat you use as a as an entrepreneur?
Yeah.
Well, I could tell you that, first of all, weare in a time of digital relevancy, meaning you
have to be digitally savvy.
Yeah.
You you just have to be.
Whether you're an entrepreneur, a businessowner, recruiter, a med an MSL, a medical
(14:29):
affairs leader, anybody that's listening tothis, we are in a time where you need to be
digitally savvy.
I I personally think that it's it's importantto be diversified in your approach, but find
because here's the thing.
You need to be where your customers are.
(14:52):
Yep.
You you need to meet your customers where theylive.
That's actually a quote from somebody that wason this podcast.
Shout out to Jason DeMuth, who we were talkingactually about DOLs.
And you don't know what platform of choicemight be for your main customers.
(15:13):
It may be it may be Twitter.
It may it may be YouTube.
It might be LinkedIn.
There's so many you mentioned a bunch of them.
There's so many different platforms now to payattention to.
One of the things that I would recommend is goback.
I did a podcast on social listening recently.
(15:38):
And definitely check out Medical Watch becausethat's what they do.
They're gonna give you this information, andyou're gonna be able to find it.
So you don't have to curate it yourself.
So that's one really good hack.
But you need to be in the right place, findingthe right information, learning what you can,
(15:59):
and then utilizing that strategically.
It's such a good point you bring up, Tom.
And let's face it.
Chances are to be digital savvy means you haveto probably be up more than one digital
platform at a time too.
We we and who who amongst us has time to keeptrack of all of those, which is why Medical
(16:19):
Watch and and and and people like that are soreally beneficial in this space to do that work
for you so you can see the output of it ratherthan spending hours of your time, you know,
bopping from from one platform to the nextseeing what's happening.
So, yeah, they're providing a great service forus that that have, certainly this is part of
their job, but not the main component of ourjob in medical.
(16:42):
Yeah.
And what do you see as as the the biggestmistakes that medical affairs professionals are
making, when trying to engage with DOLs?
Or is it is one of the biggest mistakes notengaging?
Yeah.
I think that's the biggest one.
It's ignoring the opportunity and the influencethat that digital opinion leaders have.
(17:03):
It's it's it's and it's reaching airways andand and public and private, you know, listeners
that that are really hard.
I think there's several other things that thatthat I've seen as this has evolved too.
Medical is not the only one watching thisspace.
(17:23):
Right?
So we all have to learn the ways of workingwith our own company, and that includes looking
at internally with let's face it.
There's a lot of compliance rules around howyou engage.
What materials do you use to engage?
How do you speak to these folks?
Marketing is in this space too.
Right?
Because they've got a brand, and they'reworking on brand awareness.
They've got a digital strategy.
(17:44):
Corporate comms or corporate communications hasa has a strategy, and Olive Farm is trying to
figure out an omnichannel strategy.
Right?
I mean, we've all heard about omnichannel.
Frequently talked about seldom understood bymost of us, but it's it's certainly a big a big
part of budgets now in medical and marketingand and the rest.
(18:08):
And then, again, you know, there's differentdigital opinion leaders for different purposes.
Some are educators.
Some are more on the advocacy side.
Some are more geared towards reviewing, youknow, academic publications and things of that
nature.
So I think that's a that that's something to bemindful of.
And, also, when you're and you you know thisbetter than I.
(18:28):
When you're working as a digital savvyprofessional, your needs are different.
I mean, you need you need information that iseasily distilled and easily communicated.
It's, you know, sending sending a digitalopinion leader a 50 slide deck presentation on
your brand or on your data is probably not thebest way to to meet his or her needs in terms
(18:51):
of how they're gonna be disseminating andcommunicating, you know, that that information.
And then, yeah, I think the other thing too isthis is such a rapidly evolving space.
You You're gonna review this a lot.
And, again, more more reason to use medicalwatch or vendors like them to keep abreast of
this because it's changing, you know, not noton a yearly basis, but, you know, only almost
(19:16):
monthly to monthly, there's there there thereare new players that are that are popping in.
And then I think, again, ignoringmisinformation.
I mean, there's so much misinformation thatthat is out there that needs to be corrected.
And, again, if in medical, if we hear for thebetterment of patient care, we owe it to our
patients that we serve to make sure thatmisinformation gets corrected as quickly as
(19:40):
possible, either either through the person orpersons that portrayed that information
inaccurately or by on on our own just to makesure that that's that that's getting out there.
So I think those are the biggest mistakes.
Mhmm.
I've certainly made a few of them.
So I'm speaking a bit from from experiencehere, Tom.
But, yeah, I I I think that covers the the themajority of what I could think of anyway.
(20:03):
Yeah.
And I'll add that, and I don't know how muchthis ties into it.
But I think one of the and maybe it's a mistakeor maybe it's a little underplayed is not
utilizing AI tools enough.
I think everybody's kinda dabbling and tryingto figure out their way, whether it's ChatGPT,
(20:24):
Copilot.
There are some strategic initiatives from thefrom organizations that are, you know, starting
to really introduce AI tools in practical, youknow, applications for the day to day.
But I think that not embracing it and notutilizing it, especially as it relates to
(20:47):
understanding your KOLs or DOLs or finding youknow, putting the information together, I
think, is a mistake because I really feel likethere's so many really awesome AI tools out
there that can help cut down on the amount oftime it takes to do some of this stuff.
Yep.
It's it's a great it's it's a wonderful pointthat you make.
(21:09):
And I think the other, you know, considerationhere is that what digital opinion leaders are
putting out there in terms of content in anopen source AI model is going to get picked up
by artificial intelligence.
Right?
Right.
It is it actually that magnifies the effects ofinformation or misinformation that they may be
creating?
(21:29):
%.
Yeah.
Which leads me to like, because this is the keyquestion here is how should an MSL or a medical
affairs professional authentically approach aDOL for the first time?
I touched on it, just a minute ago.
(21:50):
First, understand the landscape and the rulesof engagement with your company and figure out
who else is in this space.
And, of course, you know, compliance is alwayson the forefront of our mind too.
So understand the rules of engagement beforeyou engage.
I think that's underscored big bold letterswith flashing lights, underscored in yellow.
(22:10):
Okay?
That's gotta be the first step is understandthat.
And then, you know, you need to understand themotivations.
You know, almost like a key opinion leaderinteraction.
You wouldn't go in there cold.
You wouldn't go in there and just start askingquestions.
You would have to understand the KOL.
MSLs are so very good at, what are theirresearch interests, what are their
(22:30):
publications, where where are they speaking,all of that, and and just the digital
equivalent of that.
What have they posted?
What's been their motivations?
What's been the tone of the again, are theyprovocateurs, or are they medical education?
Are they more patient friendly and focused?
I think I think all of that is interesting.
I think the other thing that occurs to me is,you know, most academics, when you go in and
(22:55):
say that you're a medical science liaison, theyknow what that means, and they know how to
engage with you.
Digital opinion leaders probably have verylittle oftentimes idea what an MSL does.
Are you from sales?
Are you from marketing?
Are you market access?
Are you corporate communication?
So explaining who you are, where you sit in theorganization, and what your goals are, I think
(23:17):
will build some credibility.
And you used a great word too that I had, I hadthought of immediately too, which is authentic.
Be your authentic medical self.
Right?
I think I think that really buys you somecredibility.
You're not there to to, you know, basicallyexpand the brand or grow market share, but
you're there to make sure that information iscorrect and and and understood.
(23:40):
And that people can make their own informeddecisions and say what they like afterwards,
but with knowledge and facts at the at thebasis of, you know, what they're doing.
And then I think, you know, I'm not a digitalopinion leader.
Don't play one on TV, but I would imagine thatmost of them want to have independence.
Like, they don't wanna be a shrill for acompany.
(24:01):
They're doing this for for reasons, not alignedwith marketing your brand or or or or, you
know, working for a pharmaceutical company.
So understand that they need to be seen andaddressed as, unbiased and independent thinkers
just like you would a key opinion leader.
And so do your homework, understandmotivations, you know, look look at where they
(24:24):
went to school.
You know?
All all of that is extremely important.
And I'm guessing most of these folks, giventhat they're digital savvy, you can find a lot
of this online pretty easily because they areused to posting and and communicating through
that vehicle.
So utilize that to your advantage.
Oh, yeah.
And that that's I think that's mandatory as asreally the guiding light of of how you should
(24:51):
at least start and and gain an understandingbefore you engage.
But everything you say and and the reason I usethe
word
authentic is because in this day and age, Ithink that works.
I think people respond to authenticity, waymore now because we are in this digital space
(25:15):
and everybody's out there, and it's soimportant to have your own brand and and to
carry it well and be confident.
But the thing that I worry about and let's talkabout engagement.
And what types of content or interactions areappropriate or inappropriate for MSLs when they
(25:35):
engage with DOLs online?
Yeah.
I think and, again, it's it's really importantto understand rules of engagement.
And, you know, you you you know how MSLsusually have things that are approved for
training Mhmm.
Or showing or for dissemination.
And it's important to know what bucket you'rein because, look, these things could end up
(25:59):
like, when you work with a KOL, something mightmight end up on a screen at a at a congress.
When you're working with a digital opinionleader, it could get end up on YouTube.
Right?
And so you certainly don't want your complianceofficer waking up to something that's not
approved for use with a digital opinion leaderon on a very public forum.
So be extremely mindful of that.
(26:21):
And, again, I think for content, I think, youknow, conversation first.
I I I would say that it's really good to get toknow someone before you bring out the slide
deck and start showing data at Kaplan Meiercurves or adverse event tables.
You you gotta get to know them, and and partnerwith them and understand those motivations
first.
And then, you know, medical leadership.
(26:42):
You know, I I think you have to make sure thateverybody within your chain of command and and
and in other areas are on board with whatyou're doing.
So don't make it a secret mission.
Make it a very public mission that you're goingto be engaging and let medical, you know,
medical affairs leadership know marketingunderstand that you're in there.
Work with comms.
Because this person might be engaging withthree or four people in your company, and you
(27:05):
may not even be aware of it.
Right?
There's there's a lot of people fighting forfor time there, but I think medical really
deserves a spot towards the front of that linewith the with the content and with the with the
information that we have to share in theunbiased way that we that we engage.
Yeah.
And and let's talk about some guardrails.
(27:25):
I'm sure there's gotta be best practices forcompanies, and there's gotta be stuff that's
already in place for DOL engagement to makesure that MSLs are staying safe in their
engagement.
Can you talk a little bit about those?
Yeah.
Maybe, and maybe this is just, me me being alittle slow to the party, Tom.
(27:47):
I don't know.
But, you know, I was mentioning I was at a ainternal meeting this week, and I sat next to
our, executive director of scientificcommunications.
And one of the things that we were chattingabout, over coffee was how we need as an
organization to better understand themotivations and what these folks want.
So we're talking about doing a digital opinionleader, virtual asynchronous ad board to
(28:12):
understand those kinds of things.
So, I'm sure that there are companies that arethat are further along and probably several
that are not as far along.
We're probably right in the middle.
But we certainly recognize the need to betterunderstand this space.
And, you know, I think I think something interms of guardrails, just, you know, use your
(28:32):
emotional intelligence and and and seek firstto understand.
And and and that's why I think, you know,conversation first is so important here.
I think I think the guardrails that you wannaavoid are just going in there and being viewed
as, you know, someone that's doesn't understandwhat what they're doing and their content and
what's happening and and trying to force anarrative or, you know, tools on them that they
(28:59):
may or may not need.
So that I think it's just basic good mannersand it'll look common sense, mixed in with some
emotional intelligence, and then underscoreagain in bright lights that know the landscape
of your company and and who else may beengaging with them.
And if you get all that right, I think you'reon pretty safe ground, but be you know, tread
carefully because that could change at anymoment.
(29:21):
Yeah.
For sure.
Yeah.
And, you know, I'm curious.
This isn't the first episode that I've done onon DOLs.
But since I've been doing this, things havechanged and evolved so much.
And this digital world has just expanded, andwe talked a lot about that earlier.
(29:43):
And, where do you see it going?
Like, what happens in the next, like, three tofive years?
Well, I think you can go up.
Let let's approach that first from I thinkcompanies are gonna invest more in this space.
I think everyone recognizes that, you you know,your previous guest had it right.
My my grandfather would say fish where the fishare.
(30:05):
Right?
You gotta be where where where where people orfish in that case are congregated.
Throwing your throwing the line in a in a pondthat has no fish in it does not yield good
results.
So we understand there's a lot of fish rightnow, and there's a lot of different ponds to go
exploring, in them.
So or or looking for them.
And so that I think I think that's reallyimportant and understand that investment
(30:27):
usually follows opportunity, and pharma isfiguring this out, so watch that space.
I also think that, you know, FDA is watchingthis space very carefully.
And so from a regulatory standpoint, I thinkwe're gonna see more and more guardrails on on
what gets posted and maybe even you know?
(30:47):
And I mentioned earlier the amount ofmisinformation.
CBS News was saying there's more misinformationthan valid information on the Internet, and
that doesn't surprise many of us.
So what what can we do as a as a government,you know, as taxpayers?
What can our government do for us to try toclean that up a bit?
(31:08):
Right?
No one wants this information that's out there.
It's it doesn't help anyone.
And and then I think too, I think consumerswill become more savvy.
And by consumers, I mean patients andcaregivers and health care authorities.
Like, you need to know the source.
You need to check the source out.
Be aware of their credentials.
You know?
(31:29):
Caveat emptor, buyer beware, on on what you'reconsuming.
And you got big decisions to make on yourhealth.
You better be very careful.
It's funny to me sometimes people read labelsin the grocery store, but then they'll be
quoting stuff they heard on the Internet to me.
And I'm like, you have no idea who that personwas, but you know every chemical in your in
(31:50):
your dairy creamer that goes in your coffee.
Right?
And so I think we need to be mindful of both.
Let's put some of those practices into place.
So more investment, more regulation, moresavviness, and then let's just be prepared for
digital and and and and other, you know,channels to increase in their likelihood, of of
(32:11):
impact and influence.
It's only gonna grow.
It's I don't see it shrinking.
How about you?
Yeah.
No.
And it's so funny you talk about themisinformation piece because in one sense,
we're staying saying get out there and andlisten and and be savvy and and all these
things.
And then and then we're like, but make sure youmake sure you know what you're what you're what
(32:32):
you're you're learning.
Make sure that that you're you're you get thisaccuracy of information.
And I think that that it it really does requirethe individual, to be super thorough in, in
their process.
I think that this this really requires it itand I I don't wanna keep using the word
(32:56):
savviness, but I think you do have to usediscernment when you're out there and you're
curating the information and how you're goingto use it and just to be super careful and
double and triple check.
But I do think that the good news is that thereare a lot of reputable sources, tools, like
(33:22):
we've talked about throughout this episode,that can help you with this, to keep you on
track and to make sure that you're that you'renot, you know, making any mistakes.
Yep.
I think you're right.
And, you know, the other the other I only thinkit's interesting.
Whenever I see anything posted, the commentsare always so interesting too.
And I think part of saddiness is looking atwhat's the reaction to the data that you're
(33:46):
seeing on a digital, you know, channel.
What what are people saying about it, and whoare those folks?
Like, oftentimes, you'll see physicianscorrecting other physicians or other patients
that are weighing in on information.
So don't just read the headline.
Dig into the comments and really educate on theresponse.
And if the response is not, overly favorable,be super super critical yourself as to what
(34:10):
you're how you're processing it, and look forthose credentials on the comment sections too.
Yeah.
That's great advice.
What would you say so last question.
What would you say to somebody if there's,like, one thing you could say to somebody
that's like, hey.
I listened to this podcast.
I gotta do a better job with with, you know,with my DOLs, and I gotta get out there and
(34:31):
start, you know, becoming a digital first MSL.
What would what would be the one piece ofadvice you would have for that person?
Yeah.
I I you know, I think as a first step and thefirst piece of advice is get some help here.
I mean, we talked about how many channels thereare and how much none of us can do this alone.
(34:53):
So Medical Watch, thank you for sponsoring.
I think, you know, trying to do this without awithout a third party to guide you is a little
bit trying to navigate the Internet without asearch engine.
I mean, I think you're it's almost malpracticeto begin it without some professional help at
this point in time.
And then partner with them because, you know,the the the third parties are oftentimes way
(35:18):
ahead of us in pharma as to where this isgoing.
And as we talked about at the beginning of thepodcast, they've got time and expertise to do
it.
This is no longer something you can do as ahobby or a pet project or have that one person
on the team that's, you know, looking out fordigital opinion leaders and filling us in in
the five minutes at the end of the team call.
(35:39):
This is big, big, big, big responsibility formedical to get right, and for all the reasons
that we've talked about, not to do it wrong andto understand the scope and influence that,
digital opinion leaders have.
So I think that's how I would, answer yourquestion.
Let's leave it there, man.
That's it.
I I totally agree that we that digital is here.
(36:00):
Maybe you need to embrace it and and just jumpin, man.
And I think you're gonna you're gonna be ableto stay with the curve because it's not going
anywhere.
So, Paul, as always, you're the best, brother.
I really appreciate you coming on.
And this this again, this was, like, thefastest, like, I don't know, thirty, forty
minutes of my entire week talking to you,brother.
(36:23):
Well, I look forward to seeing you soon, and,I'll be, you know, doing all the summer
circuits like you will bump into each othersoon.
Always look forward to it.
And, again, thanks for your great workeducating all of us in field medical on all
these topics.
It's, it's just super.
Keep it up, Tom.
Thanks, Paul.
Appreciate you.
I'll see you at ASCO.
Alright.
Look forward to it.
Thanks, Tom.
Thanks, guys.
Appreciate all your support.
(36:45):
And, if you got value in this, please sharethis with others.
And, we'll see you next time.
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