May 13, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode, Tom Caravela sits down with Hahn-Ey Lee to discuss the importance of leveraging unique skills to advance the career of a Medical Science Liaison (MSL). The conversation delves into the significance of personal branding and how MSLs can showcase their unique skills effectively. Hahn-Ey emphasizes the advantages of multilingualism and international experience, providing tips on tailoring resumes and interview responses to highlight these attributes. They explore strategies for overcoming humility in interviews, fostering proactive career growth, and developing unique skills while combating imposter syndrome. The episode concludes with insights on building resilience within medical affairs and expressions of appreciation.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hey, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
My guest today is Hani Lee, and we are gonnatalk about the importance of leveraging your
unique skills to advance in your career.
And so Hani and I met actually last August at aconference.
We were both kinda co presenters and got toknow each other.
(00:23):
Actually saw her again at MAPS this year, andwe had this idea of doing this podcast.
Why?
Because Hani has she has an amazing background,and I thought that she'd be the perfect person
to talk to both our friends here in The US,folks that are international candidates and
international medical affairs folks, and kindof pull it all together.
(00:46):
So, Hani, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Tom.
Thank you so much.
I'm really excited about today's session.
Yeah.
No.
It's gonna be great.
Why don't we do this?
Why don't we start?
If you could do, like, a brief introduction andtalk about a little bit about your background
and your international experience and and allthat stuff just to start.
Sure.
So my name is Honey.
I'm Korean.
I was born and raised in Korea.
(01:08):
I lived in The US very briefly as a child.
In terms of my background, I'm a urologist.
I'm a female urologist trained in Korea.
I received my medical training, my master's andPhD in Korea as well.
And I moved to pharma eleven years ago, so Istarted my pharma career in Pfizer Korea.
I worked in Pfizer Korea for six years, then Imoved to Pfizer Japan for five years, and now
(01:30):
I'm in the New York headquarters with Pfizerfor for a year.
And throughout my career, I've been able towork with work with all TAs in pharma.
I've been working in regional global positionsas well, and I've managed a lot of different
people from different countries.
And it's been an extremely enjoyable andexciting journey.
Hani's amazing.
I I my listen.
(01:51):
My first impression, two things.
Number one, I didn't know her name.
I just know everybody was calling her Honey.
And I'm like, why is everybody calling herHoney?
Like, do they really know her well enough tocall her Honey?
And then I realized her name's Honey.
So that's number one.
I'm like, her my initial impression when shewas really which is was which she was really
sweet.
But then the second is I saw her present.
(02:11):
I was like, wow.
Like, she's amazing.
I have to have her on the podcast.
But the the the other thing too, guys, is thatone once we met, I realized that she really
does have a unique background and a uniqueskill set.
And having this international and globalexperience speaking several languages, just it
(02:34):
makes her so valuable.
So the idea is, guys, it's so important toleverage your unique skills, to help you in
your career and navigate you navigate yourcareer journey.
So, Honey, tell us a little bit about why it'sso important for MSLs to be aware of and
leverage their unique skills in in, like, thiscompetitive job market that we're in and
(02:58):
competitive environment.
Yes.
Absolutely, Tom.
I think that as the job market becomes more andmore competitive, personal branding is really
important.
So when we think about you, Tom, we weimmediately can remember your energy, your your
wonderful speaking skills, your warmpersonality.
And then even in the workplace as well, MSLs,they have to have their own personal brand.
(03:21):
It may be different.
It may be some people may be more extroverted.
Some people may demonstrate even strongerbusiness acumen.
They may speak several languages.
They may have, you know, differentcommunication skills.
But I think that being able to be authentic andbeing able to have your own personal brand
really makes you impressionable, and peoplewill remember you for what you stand for.
(03:43):
And as I've worked in multiple countries andI've worked with people with very different
skill sets and personalities, I realized thatthe ones who've been really true to their
talents and have strong self awareness and areable to showcase showcase that have been
successful.
Yeah.
And and I think that this is something that noteverybody takes time to recognize.
(04:06):
Mhmm.
And to so for example, I think that you hit thenail on the head when you said, you know, when
you talk about, know, personal branding and andreally identifying and honing in on these
skills so that you give a clear picture to thecommunity, to the industry as to who you are,
(04:30):
what value you bring, and what makes youspecial.
So how does one identify what makes themunique?
Especially in in a field where there's so manydifferent candidates and it's competitive and
clinical backgrounds?
How do they how would you recommend people cando you know, do that?
That is a great question, Tom.
(04:52):
And maybe I can share my own personalexperience because in my previous roles, I was
at a one time of my personal career, I was thecountry medical director of Japan.
So that was a very unusual situation because inJapan, it's very unusual for a female leader
who's non Japanese from Asia to come to leadthe organization.
Right?
So when I came into that position, I really hadto make sure that people understood what I
(05:16):
stood for, and that was a different type ofleadership.
It was very humble servant leadership, but alsoat the same time, I came there to lead the
organization and really set up people forsuccess, and that's what people came to know me
for.
So I think that for MSLs and also for peopleworking in pharma overall, number one, you have
to think about why am I here, and how can Ileverage my skills to make this, you know, as
(05:40):
impactful and valuable as possible, and at thesame time, being aware of the external
environment, what is relevant in terms ofscience, and also even the regulatory
landscape, the reimbursement?
What do doctors really need, and how can Iaddress those points?
So once you have an understanding aboutyourself and the external environment and it it
requires also a lot of, you know, reflection aswell.
(06:03):
What am I good at?
What are areas that I need to improve?
Or what are areas that I can even deprioritize?
So people who, on the one hand, can build theirprofessional skill set, but also can build
their personal branding based upon theirtalents are usually setting themselves up for
success.
Yeah.
No.
I love that.
I think that's so important.
(06:23):
You know?
And and as as you're as you're speaking and asI'm thinking about you and and and your
background, talk to me a little bit about whatit's like to speak multiple languages.
And if there's anyone else out there that alsospeaks more you know, many languages, what kind
of competitive advantage would that give themas an MSL, and how do they leverage that?
(06:48):
Sure.
So I speak Korean and English.
I'm perfectly bilingual.
And when I was in Japan during the five years Istayed there, I also was able to brush up and
improve my Japanese skills, so I think I'mquite fluent.
I also learned French in high school as well,so I can communicate in French as well.
And when I worked with the colleagues inEurope, oftentimes speaking multiple languages
(07:10):
is very common.
And what I noticed when I worked with them isthat with those language skill sets, they also
bring in a very broad perspective of thatextends beyond the local environment so they
understand other countries and the ways thatother people are thinking.
And then in Japan, we had MSLs who wereinterestingly from The US, from Europe, from
(07:31):
Africa, from Korea, China, and they were ableto bring in their knowledge of another country
and also bring that add value to the localenvironment and sometimes challenge the norm.
Right?
So speaking a different language means that youalso understand a different culture, and that
often brings situations that often puts you insituations where you see things differently,
(07:52):
and you can challenge it in a nonconfrontational way.
And those approaches were oftentimes very wellreceived by HCPs because it was often thought
provoking, and it could add value anddifferentiate from local candidates.
So that could sometimes compensate in caseswhere their language skills may not have been
the the native level, but still they brought invalue, and that added on to their critical
(08:14):
thinking skills and their communication skillsas well.
And would you say when like, as you werelooking for opportunities, like, were you
looking for, like, for example, Koreancompanies because, know, because you you were
fluent in in Korea.
Like, would would that give you an obviously,an advantage over somebody else, or would that
(08:40):
give you more interest in working at thosecompanies?
I'm curious from a job search perspective inlooking for opportunities.
Did you seek out those types of organizations?
Oh, that's a great question, Tom.
So I I think that it works both ways.
Right?
So, I mean, when you have a broaderunderstanding multiple cultures, you have the
(09:02):
options to choose.
So it adds, let's say, one more option.
Let's say some people may just be looking attheir US based companies.
They may only know English, which is fine.
Mhmm.
And there are people who can speak both, andthey can add that option as well.
And then there are people and you can searchfor Korean companies or Japan Japanese
companies.
And then, also, I've realized that you can besought out by those companies who want someone
(09:26):
with that skill set as well.
So I think that on the other hand, it doesn'tmean that if you don't have those skill sets,
you should shy away.
Because when I came to Japan, my Japanese wasvery, very basic, and I learned it during the
course of my my work experience in Japan.
So I think that if you have those skill sets,you have more options to choose from.
(09:47):
You can choose, you can be sought after bypeople who are looking for people with those
skills.
But even though even though you don't havethat, if you have the awareness and interest,
you can also build those as you move forward inyour career.
Yeah.
And I think I don't know.
I think that that gives you an advantage.
I think having that unique background is aplus, and I think it's attractive to
(10:12):
organizations.
It's a differentiator, I guess.
Even having international experience is adifferentiator.
So let's talk about let's talk about that alittle bit and why it's so important to
highlight unique skills and experience that aregoing to help you for a specific job or for a
(10:32):
specific company that you're applying to.
Can you talk about that?
Sure.
So as I mentioned, MSLs have different skillsets and different experiences, and sometimes
they even want to narrow down to a certain TA.
So people who have oncology experience want togo to oncology.
Sometimes people with vaccines experience wantto go to vaccines specifically.
(10:56):
And sometimes, as you mentioned, people whohave skill sets in a certain language want to
maximize that experience as well.
Right?
So, I mean, that would be a great startingpoint.
And, also, let's say that you you find a greatjob, but you may not be the expert in TA, but
you you're demonstrating learning agility, andyou can build on upon that.
And then if opportunities to work in a certaincountry which requires or would prefer the
(11:20):
language skills or the cultural understandingof a certain country, that would definitely add
value.
So if I look at the candidates who come to us,if they have those skill sets, the learning
agility, and the branding to make them capableand also, you know, functional in a very
different environment, they're very highlysought after because they they can definitely
differentiate between candidates who may nothave that experience.
(11:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, there and and the reason I Ikeep talking about this is because in my world
as a recruiter, and even write this I wroteabout this in my book, what we see is that
companies really want subject matter experts.
They want people that have expertise whetherit's in a therapeutic area or whether it's
(12:10):
international global experience, whether it'sin a certain area of of medical affairs or
research as opposed to somebody who has more ofa general broad based background.
Mhmm.
So what advice would you give to MSLs or evenaspiring MSLs on how they could maybe tailor
(12:31):
their resume or get really specific withinterview answers to emphasize the standout
qualities that they have that may make themmore of an expert?
Sure.
Sure.
And thank you, Tom.
So I think that as I mentioned, there are twoaspects.
Right?
So one would be you have to be very agile.
But if you want to really showcase yourspecific skills, I would just put them on the
(12:53):
resume.
You know, mention the the thesis that you'veactually written.
Mention your research experience.
Mention your aspirations.
If you really want to specialize in that field,you're the person who knows best.
Right?
You may want to even compare companies, whattheir pipelines are.
If you're applying for a certain company, youmay try to highlight your experience that is
(13:13):
relevant to that company, and you want to makesure that you're you understand the company
situation very well.
And, also, in terms of languages, let's say wehave a candidate who speaks Japanese, and the
company wants to expand to Japan.
They don't have that much presence.
You could emphasize that as a potential careergoal because sometimes during interviews,
(13:33):
people may ask, what are your aspirations?
Where do you want to be five years from now?
If you're understanding that the company wantsto expand to Japan in a few years in the
future, you might mention that as a potentialcareer goal, which would make you very
attractive to the company because they wouldwant to provide you opportunities to grow, but
they would also probably need someone who iswho would be capable to adapt to that
(13:57):
environment.
So, as I mentioned, just to reemphasize, pleasemake sure that you do your homework, and we're
applying to a company.
You want to make sure that's aligned with yourskill set, and you can showcase what you've
done or what you can do potentially.
And make sure that the skill set you have insome way or another would be attractive to the
recruiter.
And they may not be just language or researchareas as well.
(14:19):
It could be jobs that you've held part time,leadership opportunities, even managing a
budget for a certain group, And these have allbeen very attractive from a recruiting
perspective.
And and speaking of that, like, know I knowthat you've hired and interviewed a lot of a
(14:39):
lot of candidates over the course of yourcareer.
So do you think that people underestimate ormaybe overlook some of their own strengths?
And if so, what do you think they should doabout that?
It's a great question.
I think that it's more, I think, common inAsian cultures that people tend to be very
(15:00):
humble.
So they may not showcase their skills as muchas we, the recruiters, would like to see.
And that's also something that I may be guiltyof because in my early days, I wasn't sure how
much I could showcase myself without soundingobnoxious or like a show off.
Right?
And that's something that we have to strike abalance.
There are a lot of materials.
(15:21):
I've read a lot of books from Harvard BusinessSchool as well on how to showcase yourself in a
appropriate way.
Right?
We don't want to come off as beingoverconfident and not being aware of our our
surroundings, but at the same time, we want tomake sure that we're confident of our
achievements, and that really stands out, andthat's attractive when we're trying to recruit
(15:41):
people.
And that I've also noticed that people are veryhonest.
I've had a situation where I had to interviewsomeone who seemed a bit introverted.
Right?
And that may be perceived as a big flaw ifyou're applying for an MSL job.
But this person was able to communicate how howhe was able to maximize the knowledge that he
(16:02):
was able to gather by actively listening andasking good questions.
And that actually resulted in high impactinitiatives in the company, and these were very
attractive from a recruiter's perspective.
So you can showcase what is something that maybe very uniquely yourself, but also may be
perceived as weakness and may come off as one,but it's actually not.
(16:23):
And that confidence and that self awareness isusually very attractive from a recruiter or
hiring management perspective.
Yeah.
And what are you looking for when you'reinterviewing?
Are you actively looking for, you know, certainskills?
And and are you trying to see what sets thatperson apart when you're talking to them?
(16:44):
Definitely.
Definitely.
In MSL roles, what we really want to have arethe core skill sets, which is a good scientific
background, and also good listening skills andactive questioning skills.
And these are actually things that we canidentify to some degree during the interview.
In interviews, I think that you may have seenpeople who just talk nonstop or people who just
(17:08):
listen and then are very and are not veryresponsive.
So we want to make sure that we can identifytheir communication skills and also how they
can explain their life journey and their workexperience and how it connects to the role
they're applying to.
There are people who sometimes come in not evenknowing not even knowing what an MSL is.
I've actually interviewed people who are firstvery new to the job market.
(17:30):
They just wanted to get a job, didn't know whatan MSL was.
And I realized that that is not what we'relooking for when we're hiring for certain
positions.
So as I mentioned earlier, people who do theirhomework, who come prepared, are able to
showcase their specific skills and alsodemonstrate during the interview good
communication skills, active questioning, goodlistening, but also ask good questions.
(17:53):
These are what I found have led us to hire andbring in very good talent into the
organization.
Well, what about is there anythingnontraditional?
Like, skills that surprise you, something thatimpresses you in interviews that would be good
for the role but maybe are nontraditional?
(18:15):
Sure.
I've had people who've actually come have had adifferent career path and decided to come back.
There have people who've had worked innonprofits.
We have had people who candidates who've workedin business, who've worked in venture capital,
and decided that they wanted to come back tothe science field, and they really enjoyed
(18:36):
gathering insights and delivering impact to theorganization and also to the external
stakeholders.
So these kind of nontraditional experienceshave always been very interesting to encounter.
And if they were the right fit, they were verysuccessful because they actually had the
experience to explore a different field andcome to the realization that, let's say, an MSL
(18:56):
or a position in pharma was really what theywanted to do.
And they enjoyed it, and they excelled in that.
So those kind of experiences have been thingsthat I've encountered during my hiring and
working experience, and those have turned outto be successful in cases where the person the
candidate we interviewed really felt that thiswas a good career transition.
(19:18):
That's interesting.
And then what about so let's just let's talkabout so someone you know, they get a new job,
and they did a great job on the interviews, andthey, you know, obviously showcased their
unique skill sets, but now they have the job.
So what makes them stand out?
How do they utilize their their skills andexperience to grow their career and make this a
(19:43):
long term thing?
So let's take this to the next level.
Mhmm.
I've realized that people who are veryproactive and also ambitious usually are
successful because although as managers, we canwe can support candidates or support colleagues
now, let's say, or, you know, colleagues orteam members the best we can.
There are occasions where we may not be awareof all opportunities, unfortunately, in the
(20:06):
organization.
But then colleagues I've noticed, there arepeople who come, they say, oh, I saw I've seen
this opportunity in the company.
I'd really like to join this.
Sometimes there are people who actually proposeopportunities that they would like to implement
in the organization.
They bring plans and ideas, and they say, Ithink that this would be great.
I would like to do this.
And then they have been able to work togetherto make that a successful step to a next, you
(20:32):
know, position or a next role.
And these colleagues have usually been, verythat mindset has enabled them to be successful
in the organization because they're veryproactive.
They're very willing to connect and com andchallenge themselves beyond their comfort zone,
and they bring in people who share that visionand support them.
So that has been my experience.
(20:54):
What do you think one unique skill would bethat you wish more MSLs would either highlight
or develop in their career?
What's, like, one unique thing?
I think that having good business acumen isextremely important because MSLs tend to think
(21:14):
that scientific knowledge and communicationskills may be the most important thing.
But also not just looking at the field only,but being able to look at the business as a
whole.
You can listen to the town halls.
You can read the earnings.
You can also look at, you know, YouTube andalso other media on what the company direction
(21:36):
is going, where where we're going to.
And that awareness and that productiveness hasbeen helpful.
Yeah.
I love that.
You know, I think that that's the that's thekey, really.
I think a lot of times there's they're yourpersonal brand, but there's also the evolution
the evolution of your career and and notstaying stagnant.
(21:59):
What about if you had to give one piece ofadvice to someone that is trying to use their
own personal brand, their own strengths, intheir effectively in their MSL career, what
advice would you give them?
I would advise them to be confident, I'venoticed.
(22:21):
And I think everyone has experienced impostersyndrome sometimes in their career, especially
when they're going to a new field, a differentrole, a different country, a different, you
know, a different manager, you think.
So please do not underestimate your power andyour potential.
And if you feel impostor syndrome, whicheveryone has, don't let it, you know, cripple
(22:42):
you.
Just embrace it.
Understand that it happens to anyone at somepoint of their career, and take efforts to
overcome it in terms of looking back on yourpast achievements, looking back looking also
forward on why you've been into this role, whypeople trusted you, why people are confident in
you.
And, also, you want to build a good network ofpeople who appreciate you and support you.
(23:07):
And, also, you can reach out to people who youtrust to get support as well.
So that would be my advice to people who
Yeah.
Are That impostor syndrome, man, it creeps up.
You know?
I think everybody talks about it.
It's not it's not something that just affectscertain people.
I think it affects everyone, and I'm glad thatI'm glad that you brought that up.
And is that something that as a manager, yousee a lot as well, like, once you hire people?
(23:34):
Oh, no doubt.
No doubt.
I've experienced it too.
When I came from Japan to global, it was a verydifferent environment, and I I felt overwhelmed
at times.
But I managed to build a good network of peoplewho I could trust.
And I realized that I'd done amazing things inmy career that I myself had underestimated the
importance of.
So it was a good opportunity actually to buildmy confidence.
(23:57):
So I as I said, everyone experiences impostorsyndrome, and it's natural.
I think that when you're coming to a verydifferent environment, either, you know, a
different country, a different role, differentcolleagues, different TAs, It often happens.
So please don't underestimate yourself.
Don't lose confidence, and try to use this asan opportunity to upscale yourself and also
(24:19):
jump up to the next level.
That's really great advice, especially in thismarket.
It's competitive, And it's not just competitivefor job seekers that are looking for jobs, but
it's competitive for MSLs that are in the roleand they're looking to get ahead or they're
looking to, you know, hit their numbers andthere's metrics and there's all these things.
(24:41):
It makes me think about rejection andresilience and how important that is to be able
to overcome the rejection or because we talkabout impostor syndrome, but there's a lot of
people that are just going through setbacks andadversity.
Can you talk a little bit about the importanceof being resilient in in your medical affairs
(25:05):
career?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I've experienced a lot of challenges right now.
I think pharma overall, big pharma, we have alot of challenges in downsizing, you know,
rebooking.
We have different leadership.
It comes off it it it everyone experience itexperiences it at different levels, but there
(25:25):
will be set setbacks in your career, and therewill be challenging situations.
So how to be resilient is that I think that, atleast from my perspective, just sitting down
quietly and really reflecting on my strengthsand also planning very strategically my next
steps when I was in challenging situationshelped out.
Also, it could be a great opportunity toproactively network outside of your comfort
(25:50):
zone, outside of your company.
For me, I've been utilizing, you know, MAPSMedical Care's Professional Society.
I'm trying to also collaborate or work with theHBA, which was the health care business
association for women.
And, also, there are multiple organizations inhealth care or in your area that you could try
to join and expand your network.
(26:12):
And that will provide opportunities to get abetter understanding about what opportunities
might be out there, what people might belooking for someone like you with your talent,
and also just to get some advice professionallyand see that learn from people who've been in
similar situations or could provide very goodinsights on how you can build your next step.
Awesome.
(26:32):
You're the best, Hani.
I thank you so much for joining me.
This was like this went so fast, didn't it?
Wow.
Boom.
Thirty minutes.
Thank you, Tom.
I enjoyed it.
I always enjoy our conversations.
I really appreciate it.
And, guys, thank you for joining us.
As always, appreciate all your support, andappreciate you sharing the show and
subscribing.
Don't forget these are on YouTube.
(26:54):
If you wanna actually see the video, check usout on YouTube.
And, we will see you next time.
Thanks, honey.
Thank you, Tom.
Hi,
Hey, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
My guest today is Hani Lee, and we are gonnatalk about the importance of leveraging your
unique skills to advance in your career.
And so Hani and I met actually last August at aconference.
We were both kinda co presenters and got toknow each other.
(00:23):
Actually saw her again at MAPS this year, andwe had this idea of doing this podcast.
Why?
Because Hani has she has an amazing background,and I thought that she'd be the perfect person
to talk to both our friends here in The US,folks that are international candidates and
international medical affairs folks, and kindof pull it all together.
(00:46):
So, Hani, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Tom.
Thank you so much.
I'm really excited about today's session.
Yeah.
No.
It's gonna be great.
Why don't we do this?
Why don't we start?
If you could do, like, a brief introduction andtalk about a little bit about your background
and your international experience and and allthat stuff just to start.
Sure.
So my name is Honey.
I'm Korean.
I was born and raised in Korea.
(01:08):
I lived in The US very briefly as a child.
In terms of my background, I'm a urologist.
I'm a female urologist trained in Korea.
I received my medical training, my master's andPhD in Korea as well.
And I moved to pharma eleven years ago, so Istarted my pharma career in Pfizer Korea.
I worked in Pfizer Korea for six years, then Imoved to Pfizer Japan for five years, and now
(01:30):
I'm in the New York headquarters with Pfizerfor for a year.
And throughout my career, I've been able towork with work with all TAs in pharma.
I've been working in regional global positionsas well, and I've managed a lot of different
people from different countries.
And it's been an extremely enjoyable andexciting journey.
Hani's amazing.
I I my listen.
(01:51):
My first impression, two things.
Number one, I didn't know her name.
I just know everybody was calling her Honey.
And I'm like, why is everybody calling herHoney?
Like, do they really know her well enough tocall her Honey?
And then I realized her name's Honey.
So that's number one.
I'm like, her my initial impression when shewas really which is was which she was really
sweet.
But then the second is I saw her present.
(02:11):
I was like, wow.
Like, she's amazing.
I have to have her on the podcast.
But the the the other thing too, guys, is thatone once we met, I realized that she really
does have a unique background and a uniqueskill set.
And having this international and globalexperience speaking several languages, just it
(02:34):
makes her so valuable.
So the idea is, guys, it's so important toleverage your unique skills, to help you in
your career and navigate you navigate yourcareer journey.
So, Honey, tell us a little bit about why it'sso important for MSLs to be aware of and
leverage their unique skills in in, like, thiscompetitive job market that we're in and
(02:58):
competitive environment.
Yes.
Absolutely, Tom.
I think that as the job market becomes more andmore competitive, personal branding is really
important.
So when we think about you, Tom, we weimmediately can remember your energy, your your
wonderful speaking skills, your warmpersonality.
And then even in the workplace as well, MSLs,they have to have their own personal brand.
(03:21):
It may be different.
It may be some people may be more extroverted.
Some people may demonstrate even strongerbusiness acumen.
They may speak several languages.
They may have, you know, differentcommunication skills.
But I think that being able to be authentic andbeing able to have your own personal brand
really makes you impressionable, and peoplewill remember you for what you stand for.
(03:43):
And as I've worked in multiple countries andI've worked with people with very different
skill sets and personalities, I realized thatthe ones who've been really true to their
talents and have strong self awareness and areable to showcase showcase that have been
successful.
Yeah.
And and I think that this is something that noteverybody takes time to recognize.
(04:06):
Mhmm.
And to so for example, I think that you hit thenail on the head when you said, you know, when
you talk about, know, personal branding and andreally identifying and honing in on these
skills so that you give a clear picture to thecommunity, to the industry as to who you are,
(04:30):
what value you bring, and what makes youspecial.
So how does one identify what makes themunique?
Especially in in a field where there's so manydifferent candidates and it's competitive and
clinical backgrounds?
How do they how would you recommend people cando you know, do that?
That is a great question, Tom.
(04:52):
And maybe I can share my own personalexperience because in my previous roles, I was
at a one time of my personal career, I was thecountry medical director of Japan.
So that was a very unusual situation because inJapan, it's very unusual for a female leader
who's non Japanese from Asia to come to leadthe organization.
Right?
So when I came into that position, I really hadto make sure that people understood what I
(05:16):
stood for, and that was a different type ofleadership.
It was very humble servant leadership, but alsoat the same time, I came there to lead the
organization and really set up people forsuccess, and that's what people came to know me
for.
So I think that for MSLs and also for peopleworking in pharma overall, number one, you have
to think about why am I here, and how can Ileverage my skills to make this, you know, as
(05:40):
impactful and valuable as possible, and at thesame time, being aware of the external
environment, what is relevant in terms ofscience, and also even the regulatory
landscape, the reimbursement?
What do doctors really need, and how can Iaddress those points?
So once you have an understanding aboutyourself and the external environment and it it
requires also a lot of, you know, reflection aswell.
(06:03):
What am I good at?
What are areas that I need to improve?
Or what are areas that I can even deprioritize?
So people who, on the one hand, can build theirprofessional skill set, but also can build
their personal branding based upon theirtalents are usually setting themselves up for
success.
Yeah.
No.
I love that.
I think that's so important.
(06:23):
You know?
And and as as you're as you're speaking and asI'm thinking about you and and and your
background, talk to me a little bit about whatit's like to speak multiple languages.
And if there's anyone else out there that alsospeaks more you know, many languages, what kind
of competitive advantage would that give themas an MSL, and how do they leverage that?
(06:48):
Sure.
So I speak Korean and English.
I'm perfectly bilingual.
And when I was in Japan during the five years Istayed there, I also was able to brush up and
improve my Japanese skills, so I think I'mquite fluent.
I also learned French in high school as well,so I can communicate in French as well.
And when I worked with the colleagues inEurope, oftentimes speaking multiple languages
(07:10):
is very common.
And what I noticed when I worked with them isthat with those language skill sets, they also
bring in a very broad perspective of thatextends beyond the local environment so they
understand other countries and the ways thatother people are thinking.
And then in Japan, we had MSLs who wereinterestingly from The US, from Europe, from
(07:31):
Africa, from Korea, China, and they were ableto bring in their knowledge of another country
and also bring that add value to the localenvironment and sometimes challenge the norm.
Right?
So speaking a different language means that youalso understand a different culture, and that
often brings situations that often puts you insituations where you see things differently,
(07:52):
and you can challenge it in a nonconfrontational way.
And those approaches were oftentimes very wellreceived by HCPs because it was often thought
provoking, and it could add value anddifferentiate from local candidates.
So that could sometimes compensate in caseswhere their language skills may not have been
the the native level, but still they brought invalue, and that added on to their critical
(08:14):
thinking skills and their communication skillsas well.
And would you say when like, as you werelooking for opportunities, like, were you
looking for, like, for example, Koreancompanies because, know, because you you were
fluent in in Korea.
Like, would would that give you an obviously,an advantage over somebody else, or would that
(08:40):
give you more interest in working at thosecompanies?
I'm curious from a job search perspective inlooking for opportunities.
Did you seek out those types of organizations?
Oh, that's a great question, Tom.
So I I think that it works both ways.
Right?
So, I mean, when you have a broaderunderstanding multiple cultures, you have the
(09:02):
options to choose.
So it adds, let's say, one more option.
Let's say some people may just be looking attheir US based companies.
They may only know English, which is fine.
Mhmm.
And there are people who can speak both, andthey can add that option as well.
And then there are people and you can searchfor Korean companies or Japan Japanese
companies.
And then, also, I've realized that you can besought out by those companies who want someone
(09:26):
with that skill set as well.
So I think that on the other hand, it doesn'tmean that if you don't have those skill sets,
you should shy away.
Because when I came to Japan, my Japanese wasvery, very basic, and I learned it during the
course of my my work experience in Japan.
So I think that if you have those skill sets,you have more options to choose from.
(09:47):
You can choose, you can be sought after bypeople who are looking for people with those
skills.
But even though even though you don't havethat, if you have the awareness and interest,
you can also build those as you move forward inyour career.
Yeah.
And I think I don't know.
I think that that gives you an advantage.
I think having that unique background is aplus, and I think it's attractive to
(10:12):
organizations.
It's a differentiator, I guess.
Even having international experience is adifferentiator.
So let's talk about let's talk about that alittle bit and why it's so important to
highlight unique skills and experience that aregoing to help you for a specific job or for a
(10:32):
specific company that you're applying to.
Can you talk about that?
Sure.
So as I mentioned, MSLs have different skillsets and different experiences, and sometimes
they even want to narrow down to a certain TA.
So people who have oncology experience want togo to oncology.
Sometimes people with vaccines experience wantto go to vaccines specifically.
(10:56):
And sometimes, as you mentioned, people whohave skill sets in a certain language want to
maximize that experience as well.
Right?
So, I mean, that would be a great startingpoint.
And, also, let's say that you you find a greatjob, but you may not be the expert in TA, but
you you're demonstrating learning agility, andyou can build on upon that.
And then if opportunities to work in a certaincountry which requires or would prefer the
(11:20):
language skills or the cultural understandingof a certain country, that would definitely add
value.
So if I look at the candidates who come to us,if they have those skill sets, the learning
agility, and the branding to make them capableand also, you know, functional in a very
different environment, they're very highlysought after because they they can definitely
differentiate between candidates who may nothave that experience.
(11:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, there and and the reason I Ikeep talking about this is because in my world
as a recruiter, and even write this I wroteabout this in my book, what we see is that
companies really want subject matter experts.
They want people that have expertise whetherit's in a therapeutic area or whether it's
(12:10):
international global experience, whether it'sin a certain area of of medical affairs or
research as opposed to somebody who has more ofa general broad based background.
Mhmm.
So what advice would you give to MSLs or evenaspiring MSLs on how they could maybe tailor
(12:31):
their resume or get really specific withinterview answers to emphasize the standout
qualities that they have that may make themmore of an expert?
Sure.
Sure.
And thank you, Tom.
So I think that as I mentioned, there are twoaspects.
Right?
So one would be you have to be very agile.
But if you want to really showcase yourspecific skills, I would just put them on the
(12:53):
resume.
You know, mention the the thesis that you'veactually written.
Mention your research experience.
Mention your aspirations.
If you really want to specialize in that field,you're the person who knows best.
Right?
You may want to even compare companies, whattheir pipelines are.
If you're applying for a certain company, youmay try to highlight your experience that is
(13:13):
relevant to that company, and you want to makesure that you're you understand the company
situation very well.
And, also, in terms of languages, let's say wehave a candidate who speaks Japanese, and the
company wants to expand to Japan.
They don't have that much presence.
You could emphasize that as a potential careergoal because sometimes during interviews,
(13:33):
people may ask, what are your aspirations?
Where do you want to be five years from now?
If you're understanding that the company wantsto expand to Japan in a few years in the
future, you might mention that as a potentialcareer goal, which would make you very
attractive to the company because they wouldwant to provide you opportunities to grow, but
they would also probably need someone who iswho would be capable to adapt to that
(13:57):
environment.
So, as I mentioned, just to reemphasize, pleasemake sure that you do your homework, and we're
applying to a company.
You want to make sure that's aligned with yourskill set, and you can showcase what you've
done or what you can do potentially.
And make sure that the skill set you have insome way or another would be attractive to the
recruiter.
And they may not be just language or researchareas as well.
(14:19):
It could be jobs that you've held part time,leadership opportunities, even managing a
budget for a certain group, And these have allbeen very attractive from a recruiting
perspective.
And and speaking of that, like, know I knowthat you've hired and interviewed a lot of a
(14:39):
lot of candidates over the course of yourcareer.
So do you think that people underestimate ormaybe overlook some of their own strengths?
And if so, what do you think they should doabout that?
It's a great question.
I think that it's more, I think, common inAsian cultures that people tend to be very
(15:00):
humble.
So they may not showcase their skills as muchas we, the recruiters, would like to see.
And that's also something that I may be guiltyof because in my early days, I wasn't sure how
much I could showcase myself without soundingobnoxious or like a show off.
Right?
And that's something that we have to strike abalance.
There are a lot of materials.
(15:21):
I've read a lot of books from Harvard BusinessSchool as well on how to showcase yourself in a
appropriate way.
Right?
We don't want to come off as beingoverconfident and not being aware of our our
surroundings, but at the same time, we want tomake sure that we're confident of our
achievements, and that really stands out, andthat's attractive when we're trying to recruit
(15:41):
people.
And that I've also noticed that people are veryhonest.
I've had a situation where I had to interviewsomeone who seemed a bit introverted.
Right?
And that may be perceived as a big flaw ifyou're applying for an MSL job.
But this person was able to communicate how howhe was able to maximize the knowledge that he
(16:02):
was able to gather by actively listening andasking good questions.
And that actually resulted in high impactinitiatives in the company, and these were very
attractive from a recruiter's perspective.
So you can showcase what is something that maybe very uniquely yourself, but also may be
perceived as weakness and may come off as one,but it's actually not.
(16:23):
And that confidence and that self awareness isusually very attractive from a recruiter or
hiring management perspective.
Yeah.
And what are you looking for when you'reinterviewing?
Are you actively looking for, you know, certainskills?
And and are you trying to see what sets thatperson apart when you're talking to them?
(16:44):
Definitely.
Definitely.
In MSL roles, what we really want to have arethe core skill sets, which is a good scientific
background, and also good listening skills andactive questioning skills.
And these are actually things that we canidentify to some degree during the interview.
In interviews, I think that you may have seenpeople who just talk nonstop or people who just
(17:08):
listen and then are very and are not veryresponsive.
So we want to make sure that we can identifytheir communication skills and also how they
can explain their life journey and their workexperience and how it connects to the role
they're applying to.
There are people who sometimes come in not evenknowing not even knowing what an MSL is.
I've actually interviewed people who are firstvery new to the job market.
(17:30):
They just wanted to get a job, didn't know whatan MSL was.
And I realized that that is not what we'relooking for when we're hiring for certain
positions.
So as I mentioned earlier, people who do theirhomework, who come prepared, are able to
showcase their specific skills and alsodemonstrate during the interview good
communication skills, active questioning, goodlistening, but also ask good questions.
(17:53):
These are what I found have led us to hire andbring in very good talent into the
organization.
Well, what about is there anythingnontraditional?
Like, skills that surprise you, something thatimpresses you in interviews that would be good
for the role but maybe are nontraditional?
(18:15):
Sure.
I've had people who've actually come have had adifferent career path and decided to come back.
There have people who've had worked innonprofits.
We have had people who candidates who've workedin business, who've worked in venture capital,
and decided that they wanted to come back tothe science field, and they really enjoyed
(18:36):
gathering insights and delivering impact to theorganization and also to the external
stakeholders.
So these kind of nontraditional experienceshave always been very interesting to encounter.
And if they were the right fit, they were verysuccessful because they actually had the
experience to explore a different field andcome to the realization that, let's say, an MSL
(18:56):
or a position in pharma was really what theywanted to do.
And they enjoyed it, and they excelled in that.
So those kind of experiences have been thingsthat I've encountered during my hiring and
working experience, and those have turned outto be successful in cases where the person the
candidate we interviewed really felt that thiswas a good career transition.
(19:18):
That's interesting.
And then what about so let's just let's talkabout so someone you know, they get a new job,
and they did a great job on the interviews, andthey, you know, obviously showcased their
unique skill sets, but now they have the job.
So what makes them stand out?
How do they utilize their their skills andexperience to grow their career and make this a
(19:43):
long term thing?
So let's take this to the next level.
Mhmm.
I've realized that people who are veryproactive and also ambitious usually are
successful because although as managers, we canwe can support candidates or support colleagues
now, let's say, or, you know, colleagues orteam members the best we can.
There are occasions where we may not be awareof all opportunities, unfortunately, in the
(20:06):
organization.
But then colleagues I've noticed, there arepeople who come, they say, oh, I saw I've seen
this opportunity in the company.
I'd really like to join this.
Sometimes there are people who actually proposeopportunities that they would like to implement
in the organization.
They bring plans and ideas, and they say, Ithink that this would be great.
I would like to do this.
And then they have been able to work togetherto make that a successful step to a next, you
(20:32):
know, position or a next role.
And these colleagues have usually been, verythat mindset has enabled them to be successful
in the organization because they're veryproactive.
They're very willing to connect and com andchallenge themselves beyond their comfort zone,
and they bring in people who share that visionand support them.
So that has been my experience.
(20:54):
What do you think one unique skill would bethat you wish more MSLs would either highlight
or develop in their career?
What's, like, one unique thing?
I think that having good business acumen isextremely important because MSLs tend to think
(21:14):
that scientific knowledge and communicationskills may be the most important thing.
But also not just looking at the field only,but being able to look at the business as a
whole.
You can listen to the town halls.
You can read the earnings.
You can also look at, you know, YouTube andalso other media on what the company direction
(21:36):
is going, where where we're going to.
And that awareness and that productiveness hasbeen helpful.
Yeah.
I love that.
You know, I think that that's the that's thekey, really.
I think a lot of times there's they're yourpersonal brand, but there's also the evolution
the evolution of your career and and notstaying stagnant.
(21:59):
What about if you had to give one piece ofadvice to someone that is trying to use their
own personal brand, their own strengths, intheir effectively in their MSL career, what
advice would you give them?
I would advise them to be confident, I'venoticed.
(22:21):
And I think everyone has experienced impostersyndrome sometimes in their career, especially
when they're going to a new field, a differentrole, a different country, a different, you
know, a different manager, you think.
So please do not underestimate your power andyour potential.
And if you feel impostor syndrome, whicheveryone has, don't let it, you know, cripple
(22:42):
you.
Just embrace it.
Understand that it happens to anyone at somepoint of their career, and take efforts to
overcome it in terms of looking back on yourpast achievements, looking back looking also
forward on why you've been into this role, whypeople trusted you, why people are confident in
you.
And, also, you want to build a good network ofpeople who appreciate you and support you.
(23:07):
And, also, you can reach out to people who youtrust to get support as well.
So that would be my advice to people who
Yeah.
Are That impostor syndrome, man, it creeps up.
You know?
I think everybody talks about it.
It's not it's not something that just affectscertain people.
I think it affects everyone, and I'm glad thatI'm glad that you brought that up.
And is that something that as a manager, yousee a lot as well, like, once you hire people?
(23:34):
Oh, no doubt.
No doubt.
I've experienced it too.
When I came from Japan to global, it was a verydifferent environment, and I I felt overwhelmed
at times.
But I managed to build a good network of peoplewho I could trust.
And I realized that I'd done amazing things inmy career that I myself had underestimated the
importance of.
So it was a good opportunity actually to buildmy confidence.
(23:57):
So I as I said, everyone experiences impostorsyndrome, and it's natural.
I think that when you're coming to a verydifferent environment, either, you know, a
different country, a different role, differentcolleagues, different TAs, It often happens.
So please don't underestimate yourself.
Don't lose confidence, and try to use this asan opportunity to upscale yourself and also
(24:19):
jump up to the next level.
That's really great advice, especially in thismarket.
It's competitive, And it's not just competitivefor job seekers that are looking for jobs, but
it's competitive for MSLs that are in the roleand they're looking to get ahead or they're
looking to, you know, hit their numbers andthere's metrics and there's all these things.
(24:41):
It makes me think about rejection andresilience and how important that is to be able
to overcome the rejection or because we talkabout impostor syndrome, but there's a lot of
people that are just going through setbacks andadversity.
Can you talk a little bit about the importanceof being resilient in in your medical affairs
(25:05):
career?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I've experienced a lot of challenges right now.
I think pharma overall, big pharma, we have alot of challenges in downsizing, you know,
rebooking.
We have different leadership.
It comes off it it it everyone experience itexperiences it at different levels, but there
(25:25):
will be set setbacks in your career, and therewill be challenging situations.
So how to be resilient is that I think that, atleast from my perspective, just sitting down
quietly and really reflecting on my strengthsand also planning very strategically my next
steps when I was in challenging situationshelped out.
Also, it could be a great opportunity toproactively network outside of your comfort
(25:50):
zone, outside of your company.
For me, I've been utilizing, you know, MAPSMedical Care's Professional Society.
I'm trying to also collaborate or work with theHBA, which was the health care business
association for women.
And, also, there are multiple organizations inhealth care or in your area that you could try
to join and expand your network.
(26:12):
And that will provide opportunities to get abetter understanding about what opportunities
might be out there, what people might belooking for someone like you with your talent,
and also just to get some advice professionallyand see that learn from people who've been in
similar situations or could provide very goodinsights on how you can build your next step.
Awesome.
(26:32):
You're the best, Hani.
I thank you so much for joining me.
This was like this went so fast, didn't it?
Wow.
Boom.
Thirty minutes.
Thank you, Tom.
I enjoyed it.
I always enjoy our conversations.
I really appreciate it.
And, guys, thank you for joining us.
As always, appreciate all your support, andappreciate you sharing the show and
subscribing.
Don't forget these are on YouTube.
(26:54):
If you wanna actually see the video, check usout on YouTube.
And, we will see you next time.
Thanks, honey.
Thank you, Tom.
Hi,
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