August 19, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, Tom Caravela and Daniel Snyder explore the rise of fractional medical affairs roles in the post-COVID era. They define interim and fractional positions, highlighting how they benefit both job seekers and companies. The discussion covers the increase in these roles, company utilization of interim talent, disadvantages, and compensation expectations, offering negotiation tips for candidates. They also discuss the future of fractional staffing, market trends, and the gig economy's impact on pharma and biotech. The episode ends with cost-effective strategies and gratitude to the audience.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hey, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
I have a returning repeat guest today, DanielSnyder.
Daniel, welcome to the show, my friend.
Alright, Tom.
Always a pleasure to chat with you and yourgreat audience about medical affairs and
whatever path it takes.
Always enjoy it.
Thank man.
Having me.
(00:22):
I'm excited about this one.
So, guys, Daniel's been on the show before.
We know each other for a long time.
He brought up the idea of talking about, therise of fractional medical affairs roles in
pharma.
We're gonna I think this is a great topic.
I think you guys are gonna appreciate it's verytimely.
(00:45):
I think you're gonna appreciate this.
Before we get into a couple announcements,don't forget right now is the time to sign up
for Fierce Pharma Week, which is coming upSeptember, and that's gonna be in Philadelphia
at the Pennsylvania Convention Center.
This used to be mass east.
(01:05):
It's now fierce pharma week.
It's a bigger event that has a couple ofdifferent tracks.
There's medical affairs, so, obviously, there'sa track for you guys.
And then there's a, a marketing and a PR and aBD BD focus as well.
So go to Fierce Pharma Week, and then literallygo to Google.
(01:27):
Type in Fierce Pharma Week.
It'll come up.
When you register, type in the code m s l t a lk, and you'll get 25% off.
So definitely love to see you out there.
Don't miss out.
It's, registration's gonna close-up soon, sodefinitely check that out.
And one more quick announcement.
(01:48):
It's the second year anniversary of the AspireMSL program for so if there's any aspiring MSLs
that are interested in checking out thecoaching program that we have for aspiring
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(02:12):
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There's gonna be a lot of new AI stuff inthere, interview preparation stuff, and then
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That'll give you all the information, and do itnow because the price is gonna increase when we
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So right now, it's August.
(02:33):
I would try to get this done before Septemberso you could take advantage before the price
goes up.
Alright, Daniel.
Let's get into it.
As I mentioned, we're gonna be talking aboutfractional rolls.
So what let's start with the definition.
So what would you say is the definition, or howwould you define what would be called either
(02:54):
interim or fractional roles in medical affairs?
And then how are they different fromtraditional full time roles?
Yeah, Tom.
So the interim, the fractional, contract based,roles, they're they're kinda synonymous, and
(03:14):
they they mean part time.
There's Mhmm.
Very specific deliverables that are requested,and you come in as an expert if you if you're
involved with this type of work.
I personally happen to be.
I'm, for the first time in my career, I've beendownsized a little over a year ago, and I wanna
(03:41):
stay busy as I look for a new full time role.
And I was very fortunate to have been,approached by a couple of CEOs who was were
aware of me and knew what I, was capable of,helped them out, and it's it's just kind of,
started to grow.
(04:01):
Again, I keep looking for a new full time job,but this is something that's keeping me busy
and keeping my skills well honed and so forth.
So it's to your question, it is project based,part time, clear deliverable, or a clear period
(04:21):
of time by which you provide your scientific,your professional, let's just say, medical
affairs expertise to the company, and you youhave, like I said, particular deliverables to
provide, and and you work with thatorganization until those deliverables are are
(04:45):
met.
Yeah.
That answers your question.
And it's this isn't a new concept.
I mean, this has been going on for many, manyyears.
It's just what what we're seeing is that thethe like, the terminology has changed a little
bit because this word fractional is it's reallytaken off.
It's become a big thing.
(05:06):
Yeah.
Why why would you say this has starting tobecome more popular, and why the rise in
fractional positions right now in pharma?
Very simply, Tom, pharma is post COVID gonethrough a an adjustment period, a redefining
(05:27):
moment where I think during COVID, whathappened was there there were the talent wasn't
as as abundant as it is now, and there was alot of probably overhiring going on during that
(05:48):
period of time.
And now there's been a bit of a reckoning wherepharmaceutical biotech med tech organizations
have had to really take a hard look at theirpipelines, really rationalize their business
models, streamline.
And then on top of it, as we're all aware of,there are some economic uncertainties.
(06:11):
Most recently from the change inadministration, you have tariffs, you have
cutbacks in r and d funding, you have an aquest to become equal in terms of O US paying
for drugs as opposed to The United Statespaying the bulk of the development of drugs and
(06:35):
so forth.
So as you can imagine, with that degree ofuncertainty, VCs, private equity are probably
looking at pharma as potentially a riskierinvestment.
So you see these clinical stage biotechcompanies who are pretty pretty confident in
(06:57):
drumming up the requisite money that they needfor their runway to develop the the, the early
phase assets and so forth, having to reallythink about their spend rate, their burn rate,
and really rationalize how do we get thecritical things that we need to get done, but
to do it without the type of money that they'reprobably used to with other in the better times
(07:23):
that, pharma, biotech, and med tech foundthemselves in.
So economic headwinds in a nutshell, and thenthe realization that critical things need to
get done, and how do we do that without apermanent hire because of the uncertainty
associated with?
Can we get things done but not take up an FTEto do that?
(07:49):
Right.
And and as as you're well aware, there's been alot of layoffs over the last couple years.
I'm I'm a consequence of it.
First time in my over thirty year career.
And a lot of my friends and colleagues haveexperienced this recently.
And this is a really good I call it a gig to tokeep things going, keep things interesting,
(08:13):
keep busy, and this gig economy is is pickingup steam.
So
It's a good way to put it.
And you're I mean, obviously, anyone listeningto this is familiar with the fact that there
have been lots of layoffs.
They may have been affected by layoffs or knowsomebody that's been affected by layoffs.
(08:35):
It's over the course of the past two years,pretty much unprecedented in our industry.
But here's the thing.
Companies still need to get things done.
They still have to drive strategy, and theystill are responsible for doing business and
getting things done.
So how how have you seen companies utilizeinterim and fractional talent to help drive
(09:03):
strategy?
What maybe it's post layoff or, you know, whenmaybe they they have a bit of a deficit.
Absolutely.
Well, speaking from firsthand experience, I'veI've been brought into organizations.
I've been tapped by chief development officers,CEOs, and chief medical officers who are rather
(09:24):
forward thinking, and they realize that, okay.
I need to move this program forward.
I don't have the luxury of bringing in, let'sjust say, a head of medical affairs, but I know
there are things that need to get done.
We're at a critical tipping point.
We're we're transitioning from phase one.
(09:46):
We're gearing up to do phase two, and I justand they have this feeling that, hey.
I don't wanna miss incorporating something intoour next pivotal program.
Let's bring in somebody who's done these typesof things and provide us with a consultancy so
that we don't miss the boat on incorporatingthings that we should incorporate at this
(10:10):
critical stage of our clinical stage ofdevelopment and so forth.
So I've been brought in and developed a soup tonuts strategic tactical medical affairs plan.
I've also been brought in to develop anintegrated evidence generation plan, and this
kind of folds in very nicely into the clinicaldevelopment process, and I've advised
(10:34):
companies, you might wanna considerincorporating this into your protocol because
it could pave the way of you building in realworld evidence.
And why is that important?
Well, it's important at the early stages tothink about the end in mind.
Mhmm.
What are the things that you're going to, forlack of better term, leverage when you get your
(10:59):
clinical data, when you're in that peri launchphase and you're starting to speak with payers,
you wanna have as much critical evidence, notjust about your your program, your your assets
from a clinical stage perspective and then fromyour clinical program, but how does it compare
to what's already on formulary?
(11:20):
And that's a tough thing to do pre PDUFA date,but there are certain things that you can
incorporate into your, your pivotal programthat would allow you to do some differentiation
and so forth.
And having that type of information upfront inthat perilaunch phase can really make a
(11:41):
difference once you get the approval and thenyou launch the product and so forth.
So I really applaud those forward thinking csuite leaders who who who know what they don't
know or they they they're very forthright andand and and honest and say, I I think there's
(12:01):
probably things we should think about.
And you bring in a seasoned expert who's doneall these things, and you get some critical
perspective before you lock and load into yourclinical program.
So, hopefully does that give you someperspective on that question, Tom?
(12:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You know, it's it's I actually have so manyquestions because there's there's so much
nuance to this.
So, like, people that are listening right nowthat are in transition and considering their
next move, interviewing for positions.
(12:44):
Should they, and how would this be a good ideaor an opportunity to bridge the gap considering
something fractional or or interim.
But can you talk about that a little bit?
Absolutely.
So it's a tough market out there.
Let's all be honest.
And there's so much talent out there as aconsequence as you pointed out with the
(13:08):
downsizing and the layoffs and so forth.
So there's very few opportunities, and there'sa lot of talent out there.
But given the economic uncertainty, it providesopportunity for those who are willing to
leverage their network and to do the requisiteresearch to find those types of companies who
(13:31):
may benefit from their experience and so forth.
So it really for those individuals who arewilling to kinda shift gears and still remain
in the game but do it slightly differently asopposed to working for a company and taking
more of an entrepreneurial spirit to it, it canbe it it it can be refreshing.
(13:55):
It's it's a bit daunting, quite frankly, from aa business development perspective, but being
able to still work within medical affairs andprovide solutions to companies can be very
gratifying.
And I have a number of colleagues who stillhaven't landed a a new full time position who
(14:20):
are starting to, you know, dip their toe intothis consulting, this fractional, this interim,
this contract based work.
And it's kind of opening their eyes to thepossibilities.
It's keeping them busy.
It's extending their network, and they're ableto establish a track record of providing these
(14:44):
deliverables, which they can work into theinterview process as they continue to look for
another full time job.
I know it's for me personally, it's opened up awhole new therapeutic area
for me,
And I'm leveraging that in my interviews forfull times positions because then it it
(15:08):
broadens the the opportunity for a particular,position that I otherwise wouldn't have had the
opportunity, to, to apply for because of thespecificity of the job description.
Know, nowadays, with all these, very talentedfolks out there, companies are in the position
(15:34):
of getting very specific about what they want,from a prior experience for a a new position
that needs to be filled and so forth.
So having the latitude to work for a company ina a fractional basis and provide value to that
company has the the potential to expand yourtherapeutic expertise.
(15:56):
And I I I I benefited from that.
I mean, it's also a resume builder.
Yes.
Absolutely.
This is a a way to to bridge a gap.
It you know, you you kinda if you can find away to fill your resume and bridge a gap from
one position to the next, then, you know, maybeit's a couple of interim projects that you
(16:19):
string together to show that you're doing some,quote, unquote, contractual project based work.
That always is is more appealing than justhaving a gap.
You're gaining new contacts, probably.
Right?
You're because you're interacting with actingwith with new people.
You may be like you said, you may be gainingexperience in a new therapeutic area or
(16:44):
building on an existing expertise in a certaintherapeutic area.
So for the individual, I think there's a lot ofadvantages to considering doing this.
What would you say are the advantages forcompanies to consider doing these fractional
type of projects?
(17:06):
So one point before I address that question,and you you made me think of it as you were
describing that, is that it it gives you as thepotential candidate another solution to provide
the company in that, okay.
They're looking for a full time individual, butmaybe you don't know exactly what all the
(17:32):
conditions of that full time position.
Maybe it's a company exploring the possibilityof a full time position, and then they see in
your resume, to your point, that you've you'veadded your your consultancy.
Maybe you've established an LLC as as a as acorporate entity by which to to do this
(17:53):
consultancy, and maybe it will broaden thediscussion during the interview of, hey.
Maybe we instead of a full time job, maybe webring you in in a part time capacity and see
how it works out before we lock and load into afull time equivalent.
It it it broadens the company's perspective onhow they're gonna get the work done.
(18:20):
It may may not may not require a full timeequivalent even though you're in the interview
to have the possibility of this turning into afull time, job.
So back to your question, what are theadvantages, to the company?
I think first and foremost, it's a costeffective measure for very specific project
(18:45):
based work.
So maybe the company's at a critical stage, andthey know they need to get something done.
This would traditionally be something that amedical director, would do or maybe a a head of
medical affairs, but they're not quite ready topull the trigger on bringing in, somebody at
(19:09):
that level and so forth, but they know theyneed to get certain things done.
This could be a very, very good cost effectiveway of making sure that those things, those
critical milestone things in the evolution ofthe company get done without actually
committing to a full time equivalent.
(19:29):
So I think that's probably what's driving a lotof this.
And I think if you look at the the currenttrend, there's been about a 300% increase in
the use of fractional interim contract basedexpertise in the pharmaceutical, biotech, and
med tech arena over the last couple years.
(19:50):
I've I've
recall seeing some of those statistics to thateffect, and I think companies, because they're
they're limited runway, I read somewhere that40% of clinical stage companies have less than
a year of funding.
So you the companies who who start out, they doan IPO.
(20:13):
They typically, you know, find a suite.
They start building out the c suite, and andthen they they start building the
infrastructure from a talent perspective, andthen they they start doing the critical work
and so forth.
I think a lot of, senior management CEOs and soforth are are thinking, how can we do it with
(20:35):
less commitment to full time equivalents, lesspeople?
How how can we keep the process moving withoutreally, you know, weighing ourselves down for
lack of a better way of describing it with withthe full compliments of of the talent that you
would typically have when you start a company.
(20:57):
Can we do it in an in an interim fashion?
I'm I'm working with a an oncology companywhose business model is really focused on
delivering very specific tacticalrecommendations on drug design for big pharma,
(21:19):
but they're also concurrently trying to developtheir own drug.
So what are they doing?
And I think it's brilliant.
This concurrent first time drug development,they're all interim consultants, fractional
experts, whether it's an interim CMO, interimhead of medical affairs, that's the role I
(21:43):
play, interim translational medicine, interimregulatory, and so forth.
So they have this whole kind of interim part ofthe company that's concurrently in tandem to
all the other things that they're doing,developing this drug in parallel.
(22:04):
And I think it's a really cost effective way ofof continuing to evolve the company and and
potentially seeing if they if they can go offon their own.
Yep.
Couple things to unpack.
Kind of a scary statistic.
40% of companies are operating with less than ayear of of capital.
(22:27):
Definitely scary statistic.
I'm gonna make a statement.
I think that's gonna change.
I think that the there's a lot of money sittingon the sidelines.
Oh, there is.
Tons of money sitting on the sidelines.
I think that we should see that start to comefrom the sidelines onto the playing field, and
(22:50):
there's gonna be a lot more opportunity comingup.
Why do I say that?
Because what goes up must come down and viceversa.
The money's been sitting on
the sidelines for a long time.
Yeah.
And I know that there was uncertainty with theelection and, you know, what's Trump gonna do
and, you know, what's gonna happen with thesetariffs.
And I know that there's been a lot ofuncertainty, but as the stock market continues
(23:11):
to go up and if interest rates finally comedown, if there's other factors that maybe play
into things I know that we we I don't wanna getinto a political conversation because there's
obviously a lot of uncertainty still.
But I do think that at some point, theseinvestors are gonna say, I need I need to get
back into this, into this biotech market.
(23:31):
We talked about advantages of these thesefractional projects, both for individuals and
for companies.
The one thing I wanna point out as far as adisadvantage for the individual is that when
you're looking for your next job, let's say youultimately want a full time position, and you
(23:57):
say, well, I'll take an interim.
I'll take a three month gig.
I'll take a six month gig.
The only thing that I really wanna caution youabout is that as you continue to interview for
other positions, there's that timing factor.
Mhmm.
You're trying to to put the pieces together sothat you transition from the fractional or the
(24:17):
interim over to the the new job, which, youknow, could be full time.
But once you commit to doing a three monthfractional, like, project, you know, it's kinda
hard to to just back out on it without burninga lot of bridges.
I mean, I guess you can be transparent with theperson and saying, hey.
I'm available.
(24:37):
I wanna do this, but I'm also interviewing.
So that's one thing.
The other thing is you just have to maybeconsider in the interview process, find out if
they would be willing to accept a longer startdate.
So let's just say you get in through the finalstages and they and you say, or even in the
(24:58):
beginning stages.
You know, would you be comfortable if I startin two months when I finish this assignment?
Then at least, you know, upfront, youcommunicate that.
What would you say disadvantages or maybe, thedownsides for companies to go this route?
(25:20):
Well, I think, the downsides is you're you'renot fully committing to someone.
And I I actually the more I think about it,Tom, I think there's a lot more upside for the
company.
The reason I'm saying that is in the companiesthat I've done this for, there's always been an
(25:45):
upfront discussion.
This could turn into a full time position.
Right?
If if all the conditions are right, if we if weget the next series of funding, if everything
moves forward, if you obviously deliver thegoods and and and we're happy with working with
you and what you do and so forth and so on, itcould lead to a full time job.
(26:07):
So I really think there's tremendous upside.
What what happens, and I know this firsthand,is you you bring in this fractional interim
person, and you're kind of you're kind ofisolated to a certain extent because the the
rest of the organization looks at you you're acontractor, and they're not making a full
(26:31):
investment in in getting to know you and and soforth and so on.
So they're you're you're part of the team, butyou're not fully part of the team and so forth.
And and, you know, I deal with ambiguity.
I'm very autonomous and and so forth and so on.
So that doesn't, phase me and so forth.
But then you don't get, you're not able totranslate the institutional knowledge to the
(26:58):
individual because they're just oftenoftentimes, it's not enough time, and the
onboarding process is typically truncated andso forth and so on.
So you're you're not, as an organization,getting the full, full capabilities of the
individual because you're keeping thatindividual, really focused on the deliverable
(27:21):
and so forth.
So you probably are not getting, everythingthat that individual could bring to the table
because you're keeping it very projectspecific.
Does that answer your question?
Yep.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
What like, when you're looking at the I'm justcurious in your experience and from what you've
(27:42):
seen out there, is this lucrative from acompensation standpoint?
Or or what should people expect?
Should they expect that because it's interimand it's shorter term that there's more money
to be made in that short period of time?
Is there less money to be made?
Like, how do how do how should somebody viewthe compensation piece to this?
(28:05):
Like everything in lifetime, it depends.
Okay.
Right.
And you need to be flexible.
Now I think it's really important to figure outwhat your value is.
Okay.
And it's a simple way of doing that.
Figure out what your your last full timeposition, you know, base pay, bonus, equity,
(28:30):
fringe benefits, roll that all in, figure outan hourly rate.
That's a very simple thing to do.
I think it's important to communicate yourvalue, especially when you're doing very
strategic things or you're advising on protocoldesign and so forth and so on.
But you here's the thing, Tom.
You you need to be very flexible in terms ofwhat the company is able to, to offer you.
(29:00):
Now oftentimes, I will get what my my, mytarget hourly rate is, But other times, I may
need to take equity.
Right?
Because the company doesn't have the, the fullcash coffer at its disposal and so forth.
(29:21):
And that's fine.
You just work that into the contract or maybe aretainer based type of situation.
Or maybe it's a a very nominal hourly rate witha caret at the end depending on the outcome of
the deliverable and so forth.
So it's it goes from a to z.
(29:43):
You need to be very flexible.
I think it's really important to to networkwith other consultants to find out what they
are they are charging, especially if you're inthe same particular area.
Like, hey.
What's the range at which you you operate for aparticular deliverable?
(30:06):
Say it's a strategic tactical plan for medicalaffairs.
What are you typically charged and so forth?
Mhmm.
You just need to be very flexible.
But really define what you're worth.
Go into that, initial discussion, the contractnegotiation, discussion with that, and you you
(30:27):
kinda tease out how comfortable they are withthat, if if they agree with that in in the
value.
If you have the bandwidth to do this, maybeit's instead of hourly, you do it on a daily
basis, or you do it as a project basis as alump sum and so forth.
You take an upfront amount, and then you youinvoice at the end of the project and so forth.
(30:53):
So it's all these different factors need to beconsidered, and it's really important to be
flexible with it.
And the very simply, maybe taking less on anhourly rate may lead to the next project
Right.
Where you can justify a higher hourly rate, andthey see what you're capable of, and they see
(31:17):
the value that you bring to the organization.
Yeah.
And you your value can increase as they getcomfortable with you, and they actually obtain
the value that you you bring from your first,working with them.
You know, it makes me think too.
I know I'm gonna get this question, So I'mgonna get ahead of it right now and try to
(31:41):
answer it.
People are gonna say, what do I do if someoneasks me what my rate is?
Or what do I do if I don't wanna give my rateand I wanna kinda see what they're offering
before I because we get this all the time.
And one of the things I would recommend so,guys, if you're in that situation, what I would
(32:06):
recommend, there's one question that you canask that I think will help.
Hopefully, they'll give you the answer becausethey don't always give you the answer.
But if you say, help me to better understandyour budget.
Help me to better understand your budget.
Hopefully, they'll give you an understanding ofwhat their numbers are and how you might fit
(32:29):
into it Yeah.
As opposed to you saying, I make x amount ofdollars an hour, or I need this much a month,
or this much a week, or whatever it is.
Do you see this continuing?
Do you see this getting more popular?
Is this a flash in the pan?
(32:49):
So how do you look at fractional staffing, youknow, over the course of the next, you know,
several years?
You look at the trajectory of things over thelast couple years.
I indicated earlier that there's been a 300increase, and, you know, it only takes two data
(33:09):
points to define a trend.
If you have more than two, it it gets tighterand you you're you're more confident in in what
that trend is actually going to predict and soforth.
I think there's always going to be a place forthis.
I think it's especially getting a lot ofattention right now because of the budgetary
(33:29):
constraints a lot of companies are in, and theyknow that, things need to get done.
So they're being rather resourceful andstrategic with the way they're spending their
money and so forth.
So I think it'll always be there.
To your point earlier, you know, at some point,the pendulum will swing back.
But I think I think this is kind of a alearning process for pharma and biotech and med
(33:56):
tech right now.
I've heard this phrase.
It's kind of an old phrase, the salad days,which is implies when everything is going
swimmingly well.
You know, money is not an issue.
The future's so bright.
We gotta wear shades.
Farm is the where a lot of investors youdespite the risk, they're putting their money
(34:17):
and so forth.
Well, that's not currently the case right now.
If you look at big pharma right now, there's alot of acquisition or not a lot, not nearly as
many as there have been in the past.
And the type of acquisitions have been ratherlate stage, which means just like the
investors, pharma's looking for highprobability of success and so forth.
(34:41):
So I think these clinical stage companies haveto figure out a cost effective way of getting
to, data disclosure that will make thementicing to investors if they're publicly
traded or big pharma who may be looking at itas an acquisition and so forth.
(35:02):
Investors want to be assured that there's astrong probability that they're going to make
it through and get the approval and have adifferentiated product and so forth.
And a lot of executive management CEOs aretrying to figure out how to to do this with
less money.
So Mhmm.
To your question, I actually think it'sactually going to become more prominent or more
(35:30):
prevalent with pharma, biotech, and med techbecause they're realizing that they're
continuing to move things forward but in a morecost effective way.
You know, the days of building out the team andthen setting about getting it, getting the work
(35:51):
done, I think people are going to look back andgoing, you know, that that's a heavy spend.
I think we can do this more cost effectively.
So my prediction is that it's it's going toit's going to gradually keep notching up
because there's a lot of talent out there.
(36:13):
There's a lot of expertise.
It's the gig economy of late, and I thinkcompanies are going to see this as a way of
expanding their pipeline without makingsignificant, talent investments, at least
initially until they become commercial.
That's my prediction.
You heard it here first, folks.
(36:36):
Daniel, thank you so much for sharing theseinsights.
I think you know what?
It's so funny.
It's like you hear that term gig economy.
That that's what this is.
These fractional positions, they're gigs.
So it it just goes to show that it is thething, and it's probably not going anywhere
anytime soon.
I think that this is gonna stick around for awhile.
(36:57):
I agree.
I agree with your prediction.
So, Daniel, thank you for joining us.
As always, you're the man.
Appreciate all your all your great pearls ofwisdom.
Thank you so much, Tom.
Always a pleasure to talk to you and youraudience, and I I look for our next opportunity
to have a chat.
Yeah, man.
And, guys, as always, thank you for joining us.
(37:17):
And if you got value in this, please share theshow.
Comment on LinkedIn if you see some stuff outthere, and, love you guys.
We'll see you next time.
Thanks, Seth.
Hey, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
I have a returning repeat guest today, DanielSnyder.
Daniel, welcome to the show, my friend.
Alright, Tom.
Always a pleasure to chat with you and yourgreat audience about medical affairs and
whatever path it takes.
Always enjoy it.
Thank man.
Having me.
(00:22):
I'm excited about this one.
So, guys, Daniel's been on the show before.
We know each other for a long time.
He brought up the idea of talking about, therise of fractional medical affairs roles in
pharma.
We're gonna I think this is a great topic.
I think you guys are gonna appreciate it's verytimely.
(00:45):
I think you're gonna appreciate this.
Before we get into a couple announcements,don't forget right now is the time to sign up
for Fierce Pharma Week, which is coming upSeptember, and that's gonna be in Philadelphia
at the Pennsylvania Convention Center.
This used to be mass east.
(01:05):
It's now fierce pharma week.
It's a bigger event that has a couple ofdifferent tracks.
There's medical affairs, so, obviously, there'sa track for you guys.
And then there's a, a marketing and a PR and aBD BD focus as well.
So go to Fierce Pharma Week, and then literallygo to Google.
(01:27):
Type in Fierce Pharma Week.
It'll come up.
When you register, type in the code m s l t a lk, and you'll get 25% off.
So definitely love to see you out there.
Don't miss out.
It's, registration's gonna close-up soon, sodefinitely check that out.
And one more quick announcement.
(01:48):
It's the second year anniversary of the AspireMSL program for so if there's any aspiring MSLs
that are interested in checking out thecoaching program that we have for aspiring
MSLs, you definitely wanna take advantage nowbecause we're relaunching the program with a
bunch of new features, a brand new chatbot oran updated Supermira chatbot, which is gonna be
(02:12):
awesome.
There's gonna be a lot of new AI stuff inthere, interview preparation stuff, and then
the main course.
So you go to mslmastery.com.
And then when you get to the home page, justclick on the aspire button.
That'll give you all the information, and do itnow because the price is gonna increase when we
relaunch it.
So right now, it's August.
(02:33):
I would try to get this done before Septemberso you could take advantage before the price
goes up.
Alright, Daniel.
Let's get into it.
As I mentioned, we're gonna be talking aboutfractional rolls.
So what let's start with the definition.
So what would you say is the definition, or howwould you define what would be called either
(02:54):
interim or fractional roles in medical affairs?
And then how are they different fromtraditional full time roles?
Yeah, Tom.
So the interim, the fractional, contract based,roles, they're they're kinda synonymous, and
(03:14):
they they mean part time.
There's Mhmm.
Very specific deliverables that are requested,and you come in as an expert if you if you're
involved with this type of work.
I personally happen to be.
I'm, for the first time in my career, I've beendownsized a little over a year ago, and I wanna
(03:41):
stay busy as I look for a new full time role.
And I was very fortunate to have been,approached by a couple of CEOs who was were
aware of me and knew what I, was capable of,helped them out, and it's it's just kind of,
started to grow.
(04:01):
Again, I keep looking for a new full time job,but this is something that's keeping me busy
and keeping my skills well honed and so forth.
So it's to your question, it is project based,part time, clear deliverable, or a clear period
(04:21):
of time by which you provide your scientific,your professional, let's just say, medical
affairs expertise to the company, and you youhave, like I said, particular deliverables to
provide, and and you work with thatorganization until those deliverables are are
(04:45):
met.
Yeah.
That answers your question.
And it's this isn't a new concept.
I mean, this has been going on for many, manyyears.
It's just what what we're seeing is that thethe like, the terminology has changed a little
bit because this word fractional is it's reallytaken off.
It's become a big thing.
(05:06):
Yeah.
Why why would you say this has starting tobecome more popular, and why the rise in
fractional positions right now in pharma?
Very simply, Tom, pharma is post COVID gonethrough a an adjustment period, a redefining
(05:27):
moment where I think during COVID, whathappened was there there were the talent wasn't
as as abundant as it is now, and there was alot of probably overhiring going on during that
(05:48):
period of time.
And now there's been a bit of a reckoning wherepharmaceutical biotech med tech organizations
have had to really take a hard look at theirpipelines, really rationalize their business
models, streamline.
And then on top of it, as we're all aware of,there are some economic uncertainties.
(06:11):
Most recently from the change inadministration, you have tariffs, you have
cutbacks in r and d funding, you have an aquest to become equal in terms of O US paying
for drugs as opposed to The United Statespaying the bulk of the development of drugs and
(06:35):
so forth.
So as you can imagine, with that degree ofuncertainty, VCs, private equity are probably
looking at pharma as potentially a riskierinvestment.
So you see these clinical stage biotechcompanies who are pretty pretty confident in
(06:57):
drumming up the requisite money that they needfor their runway to develop the the, the early
phase assets and so forth, having to reallythink about their spend rate, their burn rate,
and really rationalize how do we get thecritical things that we need to get done, but
to do it without the type of money that they'reprobably used to with other in the better times
(07:23):
that, pharma, biotech, and med tech foundthemselves in.
So economic headwinds in a nutshell, and thenthe realization that critical things need to
get done, and how do we do that without apermanent hire because of the uncertainty
associated with?
Can we get things done but not take up an FTEto do that?
(07:49):
Right.
And and as as you're well aware, there's been alot of layoffs over the last couple years.
I'm I'm a consequence of it.
First time in my over thirty year career.
And a lot of my friends and colleagues haveexperienced this recently.
And this is a really good I call it a gig to tokeep things going, keep things interesting,
(08:13):
keep busy, and this gig economy is is pickingup steam.
So
It's a good way to put it.
And you're I mean, obviously, anyone listeningto this is familiar with the fact that there
have been lots of layoffs.
They may have been affected by layoffs or knowsomebody that's been affected by layoffs.
(08:35):
It's over the course of the past two years,pretty much unprecedented in our industry.
But here's the thing.
Companies still need to get things done.
They still have to drive strategy, and theystill are responsible for doing business and
getting things done.
So how how have you seen companies utilizeinterim and fractional talent to help drive
(09:03):
strategy?
What maybe it's post layoff or, you know, whenmaybe they they have a bit of a deficit.
Absolutely.
Well, speaking from firsthand experience, I'veI've been brought into organizations.
I've been tapped by chief development officers,CEOs, and chief medical officers who are rather
(09:24):
forward thinking, and they realize that, okay.
I need to move this program forward.
I don't have the luxury of bringing in, let'sjust say, a head of medical affairs, but I know
there are things that need to get done.
We're at a critical tipping point.
We're we're transitioning from phase one.
(09:46):
We're gearing up to do phase two, and I justand they have this feeling that, hey.
I don't wanna miss incorporating something intoour next pivotal program.
Let's bring in somebody who's done these typesof things and provide us with a consultancy so
that we don't miss the boat on incorporatingthings that we should incorporate at this
(10:10):
critical stage of our clinical stage ofdevelopment and so forth.
So I've been brought in and developed a soup tonuts strategic tactical medical affairs plan.
I've also been brought in to develop anintegrated evidence generation plan, and this
kind of folds in very nicely into the clinicaldevelopment process, and I've advised
(10:34):
companies, you might wanna considerincorporating this into your protocol because
it could pave the way of you building in realworld evidence.
And why is that important?
Well, it's important at the early stages tothink about the end in mind.
Mhmm.
What are the things that you're going to, forlack of better term, leverage when you get your
(10:59):
clinical data, when you're in that peri launchphase and you're starting to speak with payers,
you wanna have as much critical evidence, notjust about your your program, your your assets
from a clinical stage perspective and then fromyour clinical program, but how does it compare
to what's already on formulary?
(11:20):
And that's a tough thing to do pre PDUFA date,but there are certain things that you can
incorporate into your, your pivotal programthat would allow you to do some differentiation
and so forth.
And having that type of information upfront inthat perilaunch phase can really make a
(11:41):
difference once you get the approval and thenyou launch the product and so forth.
So I really applaud those forward thinking csuite leaders who who who know what they don't
know or they they they're very forthright andand and and honest and say, I I think there's
(12:01):
probably things we should think about.
And you bring in a seasoned expert who's doneall these things, and you get some critical
perspective before you lock and load into yourclinical program.
So, hopefully does that give you someperspective on that question, Tom?
(12:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You know, it's it's I actually have so manyquestions because there's there's so much
nuance to this.
So, like, people that are listening right nowthat are in transition and considering their
next move, interviewing for positions.
(12:44):
Should they, and how would this be a good ideaor an opportunity to bridge the gap considering
something fractional or or interim.
But can you talk about that a little bit?
Absolutely.
So it's a tough market out there.
Let's all be honest.
And there's so much talent out there as aconsequence as you pointed out with the
(13:08):
downsizing and the layoffs and so forth.
So there's very few opportunities, and there'sa lot of talent out there.
But given the economic uncertainty, it providesopportunity for those who are willing to
leverage their network and to do the requisiteresearch to find those types of companies who
(13:31):
may benefit from their experience and so forth.
So it really for those individuals who arewilling to kinda shift gears and still remain
in the game but do it slightly differently asopposed to working for a company and taking
more of an entrepreneurial spirit to it, it canbe it it it can be refreshing.
(13:55):
It's it's a bit daunting, quite frankly, from aa business development perspective, but being
able to still work within medical affairs andprovide solutions to companies can be very
gratifying.
And I have a number of colleagues who stillhaven't landed a a new full time position who
(14:20):
are starting to, you know, dip their toe intothis consulting, this fractional, this interim,
this contract based work.
And it's kind of opening their eyes to thepossibilities.
It's keeping them busy.
It's extending their network, and they're ableto establish a track record of providing these
(14:44):
deliverables, which they can work into theinterview process as they continue to look for
another full time job.
I know it's for me personally, it's opened up awhole new therapeutic area
for me,
And I'm leveraging that in my interviews forfull times positions because then it it
(15:08):
broadens the the opportunity for a particular,position that I otherwise wouldn't have had the
opportunity, to, to apply for because of thespecificity of the job description.
Know, nowadays, with all these, very talentedfolks out there, companies are in the position
(15:34):
of getting very specific about what they want,from a prior experience for a a new position
that needs to be filled and so forth.
So having the latitude to work for a company ina a fractional basis and provide value to that
company has the the potential to expand yourtherapeutic expertise.
(15:56):
And I I I I benefited from that.
I mean, it's also a resume builder.
Yes.
Absolutely.
This is a a way to to bridge a gap.
It you know, you you kinda if you can find away to fill your resume and bridge a gap from
one position to the next, then, you know, maybeit's a couple of interim projects that you
(16:19):
string together to show that you're doing some,quote, unquote, contractual project based work.
That always is is more appealing than justhaving a gap.
You're gaining new contacts, probably.
Right?
You're because you're interacting with actingwith with new people.
You may be like you said, you may be gainingexperience in a new therapeutic area or
(16:44):
building on an existing expertise in a certaintherapeutic area.
So for the individual, I think there's a lot ofadvantages to considering doing this.
What would you say are the advantages forcompanies to consider doing these fractional
type of projects?
(17:06):
So one point before I address that question,and you you made me think of it as you were
describing that, is that it it gives you as thepotential candidate another solution to provide
the company in that, okay.
They're looking for a full time individual, butmaybe you don't know exactly what all the
(17:32):
conditions of that full time position.
Maybe it's a company exploring the possibilityof a full time position, and then they see in
your resume, to your point, that you've you'veadded your your consultancy.
Maybe you've established an LLC as as a as acorporate entity by which to to do this
(17:53):
consultancy, and maybe it will broaden thediscussion during the interview of, hey.
Maybe we instead of a full time job, maybe webring you in in a part time capacity and see
how it works out before we lock and load into afull time equivalent.
It it it broadens the company's perspective onhow they're gonna get the work done.
(18:20):
It may may not may not require a full timeequivalent even though you're in the interview
to have the possibility of this turning into afull time, job.
So back to your question, what are theadvantages, to the company?
I think first and foremost, it's a costeffective measure for very specific project
(18:45):
based work.
So maybe the company's at a critical stage, andthey know they need to get something done.
This would traditionally be something that amedical director, would do or maybe a a head of
medical affairs, but they're not quite ready topull the trigger on bringing in, somebody at
(19:09):
that level and so forth, but they know theyneed to get certain things done.
This could be a very, very good cost effectiveway of making sure that those things, those
critical milestone things in the evolution ofthe company get done without actually
committing to a full time equivalent.
(19:29):
So I think that's probably what's driving a lotof this.
And I think if you look at the the currenttrend, there's been about a 300% increase in
the use of fractional interim contract basedexpertise in the pharmaceutical, biotech, and
med tech arena over the last couple years.
(19:50):
I've I've
recall seeing some of those statistics to thateffect, and I think companies, because they're
they're limited runway, I read somewhere that40% of clinical stage companies have less than
a year of funding.
So you the companies who who start out, they doan IPO.
(20:13):
They typically, you know, find a suite.
They start building out the c suite, and andthen they they start building the
infrastructure from a talent perspective, andthen they they start doing the critical work
and so forth.
I think a lot of, senior management CEOs and soforth are are thinking, how can we do it with
(20:35):
less commitment to full time equivalents, lesspeople?
How how can we keep the process moving withoutreally, you know, weighing ourselves down for
lack of a better way of describing it with withthe full compliments of of the talent that you
would typically have when you start a company.
(20:57):
Can we do it in an in an interim fashion?
I'm I'm working with a an oncology companywhose business model is really focused on
delivering very specific tacticalrecommendations on drug design for big pharma,
(21:19):
but they're also concurrently trying to developtheir own drug.
So what are they doing?
And I think it's brilliant.
This concurrent first time drug development,they're all interim consultants, fractional
experts, whether it's an interim CMO, interimhead of medical affairs, that's the role I
(21:43):
play, interim translational medicine, interimregulatory, and so forth.
So they have this whole kind of interim part ofthe company that's concurrently in tandem to
all the other things that they're doing,developing this drug in parallel.
(22:04):
And I think it's a really cost effective way ofof continuing to evolve the company and and
potentially seeing if they if they can go offon their own.
Yep.
Couple things to unpack.
Kind of a scary statistic.
40% of companies are operating with less than ayear of of capital.
(22:27):
Definitely scary statistic.
I'm gonna make a statement.
I think that's gonna change.
I think that the there's a lot of money sittingon the sidelines.
Oh, there is.
Tons of money sitting on the sidelines.
I think that we should see that start to comefrom the sidelines onto the playing field, and
(22:50):
there's gonna be a lot more opportunity comingup.
Why do I say that?
Because what goes up must come down and viceversa.
The money's been sitting on
the sidelines for a long time.
Yeah.
And I know that there was uncertainty with theelection and, you know, what's Trump gonna do
and, you know, what's gonna happen with thesetariffs.
And I know that there's been a lot ofuncertainty, but as the stock market continues
(23:11):
to go up and if interest rates finally comedown, if there's other factors that maybe play
into things I know that we we I don't wanna getinto a political conversation because there's
obviously a lot of uncertainty still.
But I do think that at some point, theseinvestors are gonna say, I need I need to get
back into this, into this biotech market.
(23:31):
We talked about advantages of these thesefractional projects, both for individuals and
for companies.
The one thing I wanna point out as far as adisadvantage for the individual is that when
you're looking for your next job, let's say youultimately want a full time position, and you
(23:57):
say, well, I'll take an interim.
I'll take a three month gig.
I'll take a six month gig.
The only thing that I really wanna caution youabout is that as you continue to interview for
other positions, there's that timing factor.
Mhmm.
You're trying to to put the pieces together sothat you transition from the fractional or the
(24:17):
interim over to the the new job, which, youknow, could be full time.
But once you commit to doing a three monthfractional, like, project, you know, it's kinda
hard to to just back out on it without burninga lot of bridges.
I mean, I guess you can be transparent with theperson and saying, hey.
I'm available.
(24:37):
I wanna do this, but I'm also interviewing.
So that's one thing.
The other thing is you just have to maybeconsider in the interview process, find out if
they would be willing to accept a longer startdate.
So let's just say you get in through the finalstages and they and you say, or even in the
(24:58):
beginning stages.
You know, would you be comfortable if I startin two months when I finish this assignment?
Then at least, you know, upfront, youcommunicate that.
What would you say disadvantages or maybe, thedownsides for companies to go this route?
(25:20):
Well, I think, the downsides is you're you'renot fully committing to someone.
And I I actually the more I think about it,Tom, I think there's a lot more upside for the
company.
The reason I'm saying that is in the companiesthat I've done this for, there's always been an
(25:45):
upfront discussion.
This could turn into a full time position.
Right?
If if all the conditions are right, if we if weget the next series of funding, if everything
moves forward, if you obviously deliver thegoods and and and we're happy with working with
you and what you do and so forth and so on, itcould lead to a full time job.
(26:07):
So I really think there's tremendous upside.
What what happens, and I know this firsthand,is you you bring in this fractional interim
person, and you're kind of you're kind ofisolated to a certain extent because the the
rest of the organization looks at you you're acontractor, and they're not making a full
(26:31):
investment in in getting to know you and and soforth and so on.
So they're you're you're part of the team, butyou're not fully part of the team and so forth.
And and, you know, I deal with ambiguity.
I'm very autonomous and and so forth and so on.
So that doesn't, phase me and so forth.
But then you don't get, you're not able totranslate the institutional knowledge to the
(26:58):
individual because they're just oftenoftentimes, it's not enough time, and the
onboarding process is typically truncated andso forth and so on.
So you're you're not, as an organization,getting the full, full capabilities of the
individual because you're keeping thatindividual, really focused on the deliverable
(27:21):
and so forth.
So you probably are not getting, everythingthat that individual could bring to the table
because you're keeping it very projectspecific.
Does that answer your question?
Yep.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
What like, when you're looking at the I'm justcurious in your experience and from what you've
(27:42):
seen out there, is this lucrative from acompensation standpoint?
Or or what should people expect?
Should they expect that because it's interimand it's shorter term that there's more money
to be made in that short period of time?
Is there less money to be made?
Like, how do how do how should somebody viewthe compensation piece to this?
(28:05):
Like everything in lifetime, it depends.
Okay.
Right.
And you need to be flexible.
Now I think it's really important to figure outwhat your value is.
Okay.
And it's a simple way of doing that.
Figure out what your your last full timeposition, you know, base pay, bonus, equity,
(28:30):
fringe benefits, roll that all in, figure outan hourly rate.
That's a very simple thing to do.
I think it's important to communicate yourvalue, especially when you're doing very
strategic things or you're advising on protocoldesign and so forth and so on.
But you here's the thing, Tom.
You you need to be very flexible in terms ofwhat the company is able to, to offer you.
(29:00):
Now oftentimes, I will get what my my, mytarget hourly rate is, But other times, I may
need to take equity.
Right?
Because the company doesn't have the, the fullcash coffer at its disposal and so forth.
(29:21):
And that's fine.
You just work that into the contract or maybe aretainer based type of situation.
Or maybe it's a a very nominal hourly rate witha caret at the end depending on the outcome of
the deliverable and so forth.
So it's it goes from a to z.
(29:43):
You need to be very flexible.
I think it's really important to to networkwith other consultants to find out what they
are they are charging, especially if you're inthe same particular area.
Like, hey.
What's the range at which you you operate for aparticular deliverable?
(30:06):
Say it's a strategic tactical plan for medicalaffairs.
What are you typically charged and so forth?
Mhmm.
You just need to be very flexible.
But really define what you're worth.
Go into that, initial discussion, the contractnegotiation, discussion with that, and you you
(30:27):
kinda tease out how comfortable they are withthat, if if they agree with that in in the
value.
If you have the bandwidth to do this, maybeit's instead of hourly, you do it on a daily
basis, or you do it as a project basis as alump sum and so forth.
You take an upfront amount, and then you youinvoice at the end of the project and so forth.
(30:53):
So it's all these different factors need to beconsidered, and it's really important to be
flexible with it.
And the very simply, maybe taking less on anhourly rate may lead to the next project
Right.
Where you can justify a higher hourly rate, andthey see what you're capable of, and they see
(31:17):
the value that you bring to the organization.
Yeah.
And you your value can increase as they getcomfortable with you, and they actually obtain
the value that you you bring from your first,working with them.
You know, it makes me think too.
I know I'm gonna get this question, So I'mgonna get ahead of it right now and try to
(31:41):
answer it.
People are gonna say, what do I do if someoneasks me what my rate is?
Or what do I do if I don't wanna give my rateand I wanna kinda see what they're offering
before I because we get this all the time.
And one of the things I would recommend so,guys, if you're in that situation, what I would
(32:06):
recommend, there's one question that you canask that I think will help.
Hopefully, they'll give you the answer becausethey don't always give you the answer.
But if you say, help me to better understandyour budget.
Help me to better understand your budget.
Hopefully, they'll give you an understanding ofwhat their numbers are and how you might fit
(32:29):
into it Yeah.
As opposed to you saying, I make x amount ofdollars an hour, or I need this much a month,
or this much a week, or whatever it is.
Do you see this continuing?
Do you see this getting more popular?
Is this a flash in the pan?
(32:49):
So how do you look at fractional staffing, youknow, over the course of the next, you know,
several years?
You look at the trajectory of things over thelast couple years.
I indicated earlier that there's been a 300increase, and, you know, it only takes two data
(33:09):
points to define a trend.
If you have more than two, it it gets tighterand you you're you're more confident in in what
that trend is actually going to predict and soforth.
I think there's always going to be a place forthis.
I think it's especially getting a lot ofattention right now because of the budgetary
(33:29):
constraints a lot of companies are in, and theyknow that, things need to get done.
So they're being rather resourceful andstrategic with the way they're spending their
money and so forth.
So I think it'll always be there.
To your point earlier, you know, at some point,the pendulum will swing back.
But I think I think this is kind of a alearning process for pharma and biotech and med
(33:56):
tech right now.
I've heard this phrase.
It's kind of an old phrase, the salad days,which is implies when everything is going
swimmingly well.
You know, money is not an issue.
The future's so bright.
We gotta wear shades.
Farm is the where a lot of investors youdespite the risk, they're putting their money
(34:17):
and so forth.
Well, that's not currently the case right now.
If you look at big pharma right now, there's alot of acquisition or not a lot, not nearly as
many as there have been in the past.
And the type of acquisitions have been ratherlate stage, which means just like the
investors, pharma's looking for highprobability of success and so forth.
(34:41):
So I think these clinical stage companies haveto figure out a cost effective way of getting
to, data disclosure that will make thementicing to investors if they're publicly
traded or big pharma who may be looking at itas an acquisition and so forth.
(35:02):
Investors want to be assured that there's astrong probability that they're going to make
it through and get the approval and have adifferentiated product and so forth.
And a lot of executive management CEOs aretrying to figure out how to to do this with
less money.
So Mhmm.
To your question, I actually think it'sactually going to become more prominent or more
(35:30):
prevalent with pharma, biotech, and med techbecause they're realizing that they're
continuing to move things forward but in a morecost effective way.
You know, the days of building out the team andthen setting about getting it, getting the work
(35:51):
done, I think people are going to look back andgoing, you know, that that's a heavy spend.
I think we can do this more cost effectively.
So my prediction is that it's it's going toit's going to gradually keep notching up
because there's a lot of talent out there.
(36:13):
There's a lot of expertise.
It's the gig economy of late, and I thinkcompanies are going to see this as a way of
expanding their pipeline without makingsignificant, talent investments, at least
initially until they become commercial.
That's my prediction.
You heard it here first, folks.
(36:36):
Daniel, thank you so much for sharing theseinsights.
I think you know what?
It's so funny.
It's like you hear that term gig economy.
That that's what this is.
These fractional positions, they're gigs.
So it it just goes to show that it is thething, and it's probably not going anywhere
anytime soon.
I think that this is gonna stick around for awhile.
(36:57):
I agree.
I agree with your prediction.
So, Daniel, thank you for joining us.
As always, you're the man.
Appreciate all your all your great pearls ofwisdom.
Thank you so much, Tom.
Always a pleasure to talk to you and youraudience, and I I look for our next opportunity
to have a chat.
Yeah, man.
And, guys, as always, thank you for joining us.
(37:17):
And if you got value in this, please share theshow.
Comment on LinkedIn if you see some stuff outthere, and, love you guys.
We'll see you next time.
Thanks, Seth.
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