April 22, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode, Tom Caravela is joined by Lindsey Harrer to discuss the power of non traditional Key Opinion Leader (KOL) engagement for Medical Science Liaisons (MSLs). They explore the differences in KOL interactions, strategies for aligning MSL objectives with KOL needs, and the importance of personalized communication. The conversation highlights compliance challenges in nontraditional KOL engagement and its future potential. Lindsey shares insights on applying nontraditional approaches in interviews and MSL strategies, emphasizing the importance of empathy in connecting with healthcare professionals on a human level. The episode concludes with closing remarks and expressions of gratitude.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hey, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
My guest today is Lindsey Harrer.
She's US Head Of Medical Strategic EngagementAnd Partnerships at EMD Sirono.
Easy for me to say.
Lindsay, welcome to the podcast.
How are
you?
I'm good, Tom.
How are you?
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah.
I am excited.
And, guys, backstory.
So Jim Hahn, if you remember, came on the show.
(00:24):
We talked about thought leader liaisons, whichis a great episode.
He had made the introduction to Lindsay, andI'm excited to have her on.
So, before we get into that, we do have asponsor.
It is time to register for this year's FiercePharma Engage conference.
It actually used to be Mass West.
(00:46):
Big fan of Mass West and Mass East.
I'm gonna be there.
It's gonna be an amazing event.
It's a little different this year.
So it's a much larger event where Fierce isactually having different tracks.
So they're gonna have pharma marketing, PR andcommunications, medical affairs, business
development, and licensing.
(01:07):
So it's gonna be broken out a little bit, butamazing content, amazing speakers.
This is going to take place in San Diego, AprilTwenty Ninth through May 1.
So for more information, go to fierce pharmaengage twenty twenty five, and you could
register.
And, I look forward to seeing you there.
So, Lindsay, we're gonna talk about the powerof nontraditional KOL engagement, which I think
(01:34):
is gonna be an awesome conversation.
To start, like, can can we like, can you definewhat nontraditional KOL engagement what that
term actually means?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So so, Tom, what it means to me and and to myteam is really leading from an HCP centric
perspective or approach.
(01:55):
It's really peeling back the layers of what'shappening in in the world of the HCP,
understanding what are their opportunities,what are their challenges, what are the things
they're facing on a daily basis, and reallyseeking to understand from a place of
curiosity.
It's as someone on my team says who I think isabsolutely brilliant, she she describes it as
(02:16):
beyond the transaction.
You're really there to get to know them and tounderstand them.
And so that's what it means to me.
So focus being on exclusively on them is whatyou're
Yes.
On their world, on what is happening from a acurrent trend perspective, what's happening
from a future trend perspective in health care,in the health care ecosystem.
(02:38):
Really, like, seeking to understand what whatare their obstacles in their current
environment.
And how does that differ from what we mightcall so if that's the nontraditional, what
would be the more standard way of KOLengagement?
Yeah.
So the way that I look at it, especially ifyou're thinking about a traditional MSL type of
engagement or an MSL type of interaction, it istypically aligned to the medical strategy,
(03:06):
right, medical affairs strategy or thestrategic imperatives.
So it's a a situation where you're going in,you're often reacting to a question that the
HCP has.
You're you're looking for a a way tocommunicate from a perspective of scientific
exchange.
You're going in with an objective that's prettyspecific to something that they've either asked
(03:29):
about, inquired about, told you that they havean interest in.
You might be going in looking for anopportunity to generate some data with them or
looking to fill some gaps if there's researchgaps.
So it's very, I would say, focusedstrategically on the medical affairs strategic
imperatives.
(03:50):
Well, it makes sense because MSLs are givingthese strategic objectives, and that becomes
the driver.
Exactly.
Right.
Exactly.
And they almost go in with that, and and thatkinda guides and leads them into that
engagement and and the approach to thatengagement.
So what you're saying is not that you youobviously need to keep the strategic objectives
(04:15):
front and center.
You keep them in mind, but you go from thestandpoint of the KOL needs first and then work
back.
Is is that is that a
Yeah.
And and and, Tom, so let me be very clear.
Like, we need MSLs to do exactly what I justdescribed.
We need them to go in and and deliver on thescience and to have that scientific
(04:35):
conversation, to deliver the data, to answerquestions, or really allow the HCP to share
their concerns, and then we back that up withdata.
So we we have to have that.
I mean, that is a critical element of of ofpharmaceutical engagement.
Right?
And we need those strong MSLs to be able todeliver on the science.
(04:56):
But what I'm suggesting is that you can doboth.
You can really, seek to understand what ishappening in the world of the HCPs that we're
serving and get to know them from a deeplyhuman perspective, understand what makes them
tick, and then also fill those needs throughthe strategic imperatives that you have to
deliver on for the organization.
(05:17):
You can do both, and it's not an either or.
Much of the work that my team has executedaround came from ideas that happened from
exchanges in the field because the TLL or theMSL or whoever was interfacing with that
provider or health care professional reallytook the time to get to know what was important
(05:38):
to them.
And they brought those ideas and innovationback to the team or back to the organization
internally to see what internal stakeholderscould partner with us to generate some new
resources, to generate a new initiative, orcollaborate with an HCP in a different way.
And so you can do both, I guess, is my is myencouragement.
(05:58):
Well and let's talk about why this isimportant.
It sounds important.
It sounds it sounds feasible, but I'd love tohear from you, and why you think this is so
important.
Yeah.
Well, one of the things that's happening in thecurrent health care ecosystem is that health
care providers are incredibly burnout.
(06:20):
I've read statistics around moderate burnout isoccurring in sixty percent of health care
providers.
That's that's exceptional.
Yeah.
And time is our most valuable currency.
And so in order to stay relevant, in order toreally have a meaningful interaction with HCPs,
it has to be with an understanding of what'simportant to them and delivering on in a way
(06:43):
that is, you know, creating a a value add forthem.
And so if you don't take the time to take astep back and get to know them, get to know
what drives them, get to know why they wentinto medicine or into health care in in the
first place, What is keeping them fromfulfilling, you know, their their dream, if you
will?
How are they approaching their day?
(07:04):
Is it is it really a way are they approachingtheir day from the perspective of what they
thought when they went into health care?
What are the obstacles?
And so when you take a step back and get toknow people on that level, you can hear what's
happening in their world, and you make yourselfmore relevant.
You make your interaction more relevant, andyou really create a meaningful dialogue and
(07:26):
exchange that is on their terms.
You're attuned to their needs.
And that, I I think, is incredibly important inthe current environment.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So we talked about the the what, and we talkedabout the why.
Let's talk about the how.
So how how does this happen?
What are some of the questions that MSLs shouldbe asking KOLs in this nontraditional approach?
(07:51):
Yeah.
I think you can start by asking, know, what wasit that drew you to health care?
What was it that drew you to the particularspecialty that you're currently practicing in?
What keeps you up at night?
What are the things that if you had more timein your day, what would you spend it doing
within the scope of your of of your practice?
What's your biggest frustration?
(08:13):
What what is providing you joy as you treatpatients?
What is it about treating patients that youreally enjoy or this disease state that you
really enjoy?
What does success look like to you ultimately?
And and, really, when you align on what's whatis happening in their world, what is critical
(08:33):
then is that you really take the time toactually listen.
You're listening to how they're responding toyou.
You're listening with the perspective of, can Iactually help?
Can I actually do something, bring someinnovation to this HCP or to their practice or
to the health care ecosystem so that I canactually help, that we can do something of
(08:54):
meaningful difference?
It's not just listening and asking questionsand providing lip service.
It's seeking solutions based on what you'rehearing.
You know, and and it's like you said, thosequestions are all about them, their needs,
their problems, what's keeping them up atnight.
(09:15):
So, I mean, it makes total sense.
It's funny.
I was at a I was doing a workshop recently, andand, one of the things that came up is, you
know, if you're on an interview and they theyask you to sell them a pen could be any
interview.
It doesn't have to be a sales interview.
It's just kind of a common thing.
Yeah.
And and it's like all the you know, obviously,all the questions that you would ask to uncover
(09:39):
what that person would want in a pen.
That's the whole strategy.
But That's right.
This guy broke it down into he said, look.
I'm gonna break this down into one question.
What's the most important thing to you in apen?
And once, like, the light bulb went off, it'slike, what's the most important thing to you?
(10:00):
In really any situation, KOLs, what's the mostimportant thing to you?
Right.
You have a one on one meeting with one of youryour team members.
What's the most important thing you wanna talkabout?
Yeah.
That really gets to the core of what it what ison that person's mind at that time.
So I'm adding that question, but it didn't comefrom me.
I actually learned it in a workshop, and Ithink it's amazing.
(10:23):
And I want I've been using it a lot, so I justwanted to mention that.
But how let's let's get back into, how how doyou think an MSL can develop a strategy to
personalize their communication and theirapproach for individual KOLs?
(10:45):
Again, I I mean, to your point, it's very welltaken, Tom.
It's it's understanding what's important tothem.
Right?
And if if you take the time to understandwhat's important to them, then you can
personalize your approach through yourresources, through education, through, you
know, really levering on everything that isavailable to the MSL that they can actually
bring to the HCP around what they've identifiedas being important to them.
(11:09):
The other thing I think is is really important,as I mentioned, is if you uncover something
that is important to them and there's somethingthat's actionable in that that you can
everything that my team has has really workedon or all of the initiatives that have come to
the table through through this work is that itstarted with a spark of an idea through a
(11:31):
discussion with an HCP.
And it didn't just stop though.
It wasn't just a dialogue.
It wasn't lip service.
It was, okay.
Let's think about how we can create solutions.
Let's talk about how we can collaborate ordevelop resources or develop content or show up
in a different way based on what you're tellingme.
And so I think it's really finding the internalstakeholders in your organization to help you
(11:58):
to deliver on what you've identified as aninnovative solution based on your conversation
with your HCP because then they will realizethat this is this is personal.
You are taking what you've learned from them,and you're actually solutioning around that,
and you're delivering for them.
And so it becomes very personal when you askfor their input, when you ask for their
(12:19):
collaboration on something, when you when theyjoin you in that process.
And so they can do that in a few differentways.
One being, you know, maybe you for example, wejust had a an advisory board within the
oncology space around health care providerburnout, seeking to understand what is
happening from the burnout perspective,specifically in oncology.
(12:42):
And so many people were interested inparticipating in this topic because we were
seeking to understand, but we were also lookingfor solutions to help them in the current
environment.
And so when they realize that we're puttingtheir insights into action, it becomes very
personal to them, and we actually ask for theirhelp along the way.
So it's really a kind of joint effort to get tothe heart of what's challenging them or what
(13:07):
is, interfering with their ability to practicemedicine in the way that they want, and we are
coming to the table with a partnership to toreally find a path forward.
And that's what could be more personal thanthat.
Yeah.
It makes total sense.
The this this makes complete sense, and I'msure knowing, the MSLs that are really good at
(13:29):
this, anyone that hasn't been taking thisapproach is I I think is gonna see a big
difference.
But what would you say are some of thechallenges in this approach?
I think, Tom, if you're if you're approachingHCPs from this lens, again, it can't just be
(13:49):
lip service.
It can't be a bait and switch.
It can't be let's talk about all these thingsthat are, you know, keeping you up at night or
the things that are challenging you and, oh, bythe way, now I wanna switch gears and talk
about the things that are important to me.
And so it really has to be a genuine curiosity,an opportunity to listen, and then an
(14:10):
opportunity to act.
And I'm fortunate to work for an organizationthat actually invests in this type of work,
that invests in above brand initiatives thatactually allow for us to be, you know, seen in
a different light.
And it is I think what you the challenge thatyou run up against potentially is if your
organization really doesn't have a big appetiteappetite for this type of engagement or type of
(14:33):
work.
And so you have to really have the courage togo internally, speak to leadership, talk about
the why, tell them why this is important to theHCP, to the health care ecosystem, tell them
that there is an opportunity here that willhelp set them and the organization apart.
And and I really think that you have to havesome some I I guess, courage is the word.
(14:58):
Courage to go internally and say, this isimportant.
And if we do this, you know, there will be animpact, and there will be value to not only the
HCP, but to our organization.
I think this work takes time, Tom.
It's not just something that happens overnight.
It it really is something that is a marathonand not a sprint, and these initiatives often
(15:20):
are are large projects that that take manyyears.
And so we've actually created a full team outof this work.
It's not this is not an MSL team, Tom.
This is a team in medical affairs that hasreally come from all different backgrounds.
I've got a nurse practitioner on my team.
I have a physician assistant on my team, andthey actually are tasked tasked with creating
(15:44):
educational resources for advancedpractitioners in the neurology community.
And it's a we have a portal that they'vedeveloped, and they created podcasts.
They've created modules.
They've created a community where they canactually have advanced practitioners join, and
and they network with each other.
(16:04):
They they really have created a nice community.
And so, again, it's not just, you know,listening to what they're saying.
And in this case, the HCPs were or the advancedpractitioners in their neurology space were
telling us that they needed more education,that often they were coming into their practice
environment without a whole lot of backgroundon the disease state.
(16:26):
And so they needed a place to go where theycould find a mentor, they could find content,
they could find education, they could findcommunity.
And so we created that.
And, again, it took, you know, a lot ofinitiative of people really showing the
organization why this was important in orderfor them to invest in this work.
And now we have over 250 advanced practitionersthat are enrolled in the portal.
(16:51):
And so really is a value add here.
It's something that is important and meaningfulin the space, and it, again, sets the
organization apart.
But we had to have leadership that believed inthis work, and, fortunately, we do.
Yeah.
No.
It sounds like it.
Congratulations.
You guys are, you're trailblazers, and you guysare doing some amazing things.
Thank you.
We we like to think so.
(17:12):
I'm very proud of this work.
Yeah.
No.
It's awesome.
Really proud of the organization.
So I always ask anytime I talk about KOLengagement, I always like to ask if there are
any words of caution or guardrails as itrelates to compliance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's such a good question.
So we wouldn't be able to do any of this workwithout our compliance and legal partners.
(17:36):
And and what I would encourage anyone to do ifthey have an idea, if they have a spark, if
they've listened to their HCP and they wannacome to the table with an innovative resource
or an approach, an initiative, a work stream, apilot, if you will.
I think what you really need to do is engageyour compliance and legal counterparts, from
(17:56):
the very beginning.
Help have them help you create the pathforward.
I call them my compliance and legal partnersbecause they're exactly that.
They're partners with me on this journey.
They're partners with my team.
They allow us to find the right way to moveforward that, you know, keeps the integrity of
what we're trying to do at its core, but alsodoes it in a way that keeps the organization
(18:19):
and the the work compliance.
And that is incredibly important because we wereally need to be thoughtful about that in this
current landscape and environment that we'reall working in.
Yeah.
And would you say knowing that you've been inyou know, you mentioned oncology.
You also mentioned the burnout factor.
(18:41):
Are are there groups or are there therapeuticareas that this nontraditional approach may not
be best for, or are there certain KOLs that youmay wanna take a different approach?
I'm curious as to where this if if there's a, Idon't know, if there's a group that may not be
(19:02):
good for this.
Yeah.
It's a really good question, Tom.
So I in my experience so my team is across ourenterprise, which means we work across all
therapeutic areas in within the scope of BMDSirono.
So that's neurology, oncology, fertility, andHIV.
And right now, we haven't found an area wherethis approach is not welcomed, and it's not
(19:29):
creating a different type of engagementapproach for the organization.
I'm not I'm not sure.
I can't speak to other therapeutic areasbecause I just don't have the experience to
say, for example, in cardiology or neurosurgerythat this wouldn't be valuable.
Right?
But from what we've seen, this has reallyallowed us to engage in a different way.
(19:54):
In fact, that we were at ACTRUM's, one of thecongresses in the MS arena a couple of about a
month ago, and one of the health care providersthat I met with actually said no one else is
talking about these types of things.
I've spent many many, you know, hours andmeetings throughout the course of this meeting,
and and and no one is talking about these thesetop kinds of topics.
(20:18):
So, for example, we have another work streamaround health equity and AI and really looking
at can AI bridge the gap in vulnerable patientpopulations.
And so we're just getting feedback from fromdifferent, you know, health care providers on
that journey and on the work that we're doing.
We're in partnership with the Economist ImpactGroup on that work stream.
(20:40):
And, you know, the the provider that we spoketo was like, you know, this is totally novel.
This is completely different than what we'reengaging in conversation around with any other
pharmaceutical company.
And, you know, you should be really proud ofthat because it makes me really lean in and
wonder what is different about what you'redoing and why why are you investing in this
type of work?
(21:01):
And we are because, ultimately, our our mantraat EMV Sirono is as one for patients.
And if we can, you know, if we can change theapproach just a little bit so that we can
ultimately serve patients better, then we'redoing a service to everyone that we're engaging
with.
And so I I don't see an area where this if it'swell thought out, if, again, we're listening,
(21:26):
if we're really taking the time to seek from aplace of curiosity, I don't see where this
could have a shortcoming.
But, again, it has to be genuine, and it has tobe followed with action.
Mhmm.
And how do you see this evolving?
I mean, is this gonna be the new norm?
Is this gonna be the way the wave of thefuture?
I hope so.
(21:46):
I I mean, I can only speak for EMV Sirono, andI know we're incredibly committed to this
journey.
We, again, have a vision to elevate humanityand spark discovery.
And, you know, that is a real that's somethingwe take very seriously.
We want to make sure that we're innovating, andthis work is innovative.
(22:09):
And I really welcome other organizations toenter into this space, enter into this journey
because, you know, it will elevate.
It'll raise the bar.
It will help us to think differently, to thinkbigger.
And so I I hope it's the wave of the future.
I hope we continue to look for nontraditionalways to engage our HCPs and, again, create
(22:29):
solutions that serve the whole health careecosystem.
I think we we need this type of work that thatwe're in a we're in a tough time in our
society, in the health care landscape, in theworld.
And if we can approach people from a deeplyhuman perspective, really understanding what's
(22:51):
happening in their world, in their day to day,I think we'll do a better job overall in
serving both the health care providers that weserve and their patients.
Yeah.
And I wanna put my recruiter hat on for asecond.
You know, I am a recruiter by day, podcaster bynight.
I think this approach is the way people shouldhandle their interviews.
(23:13):
I think one of the biggest mistakes I see withjob seekers is they it's all about them.
How does this company how is this company gonnabe a good fit for me, and how is this job gonna
be good for me?
And it's not as much of what can I do for thethis organization?
How can I be valuable to this hiring manager?
(23:35):
How can I prove to them that I am a fit forthis position, and I'm gonna be good for
organization?
So, it again, it goes into the same type ofapproach where you're focusing on the other
person.
Right.
Right.
So I I mean, I think it's the same concept.
It is.
It is.
I mean, we're we're all I mean, if we don'tunderstand what's important to those that we're
(24:04):
interfacing with, then it's really a one-sidedagenda that we're working from.
And so it's when it's all about you and ityou're never gonna meet anyone else's needs or
be relevant or valuable or, you know, createcreate meaning.
And you have to have that kind of purpose asyour backdrop.
I think it's, you know, seeking to understandthose around you, seeking to to really work
(24:28):
from a place of, you know, how can I supportyou?
How can we help to make things better in anincredibly complicated, you know, world and
system?
I think the the beauty of it is is is there'sso much more fulfillment in that.
And I really think at the end of the day, I wejoke on my team.
We say, you know, we're not really working.
(24:49):
This is not a job.
We we are, you know, actually doing work thatis so meaningful that doesn't feel like a job.
I have a career.
I I really enjoy what I do every day.
I see the value in it.
I'm able to surround myself with incrediblythoughtful, caring people that work incredibly
hard that are not afraid to to to block thesystem, if you will, to, you know, challenge
(25:13):
the status quo and to you know, in thisincredible world of disruption that we're all
faced with every day, they're finding thepossibility in it.
And that to me is incredible.
And I think that if you could bring that tothat perspective to an organization if you're
interviewing and really talk about how youcould show up differently in support of their
(25:35):
mission, really think that you could setyourself apart.
Totally.
Yeah.
I totally agree.
I think that that's that's the separator a lotof times with candidates
Right.
With people that are really good at doing that.
I completely agree.
And and you see it.
I'm actually preparing to interview for a for arole right now.
(25:56):
And and, you know, I'm looking for someone whocan come to the table with me and have ideas
and not be afraid to push boundaries and and,you know, in the face of a no, if you will, or
I don't think we can do that or there's I don'tknow how to find a way.
It's, you know, finding the way, finding thepath forward, and showing the organization,
(26:17):
showing the team that, you know, you're notafraid to to push boundaries because you
understand the need so deeply that it becomes amission for you.
Yep.
Alright.
So last question.
Yeah.
People are listening.
Right?
We're gonna get back to MSLs now.
People are listening.
They're like, this is great.
Can't wait to try this.
I'm gonna do this.
Great advice.
(26:38):
So what would you tell those folks?
Like, where do they start?
What advice do you have?
Like, what what could you tell those folks thatare ready to start doing more of this if they
have it already?
Yeah.
I mean, just try it.
Bring your heart to work.
You know, if you get to know your HCPs as humanbeings that they went into health care to care
(27:00):
for people.
They went into health care because they believethat they can make a difference, that they
could, you know, change the course of apatient's life that has potentially a chronic
disease or, you know, something that they'rethey're battling.
And our health care providers are arestruggling as well, and they're struggling in
this current dynamic in this environment.
(27:22):
And and it really is it's incumbent upon us toto go in and and seek to understand and to see
them as human beings and to genuinely hearthem, to listen, and then to act.
And so I I encourage anyone to take this typeof approach, and and you'll find so much more
joy in what you do because you can alignyourself to the things that you know are
(27:43):
important to someone else, and it's no longerjust about you.
At the end of the day, we are we're really allseeking connection, and, you know, it that's
not you will make yourself so much morerelevant and so much more.
You you'll you'll become a joy to interfacewith, and it's not just another MSL or rep or
(28:04):
TLL or, you know, someone coming through thedoor to try to take their time that's already
incredibly, you know, maxed.
You'll be a relief in their day.
You'll be someone that they want to interfacewith because they're learning from you, and
you're learning from them, and it's apartnership.
So I I encourage anyone to try.
Like, try just to bring their heart to work.
(28:25):
I'll tell you what a quote to end thisconversation.
Bring your heart to work.
Yeah.
Love that.
Awesome.
So we're gonna leave it there.
Lindsay, you're awesome.
I appreciate you.
This is
a great conversation.
And, as always, thank you guys for all yoursupport.
Thank you for sharing the show and for, beingso amazing.
Couldn't do this show without you.
(28:45):
And, if you got value in this, definitely tellyour friends, and, we'll see you next time.
Lindsey, thanks again.
Thank you so much, Tom.
It was a pleasure to be here.
Good
Hey, guys.
Welcome to the podcast.
My guest today is Lindsey Harrer.
She's US Head Of Medical Strategic EngagementAnd Partnerships at EMD Sirono.
Easy for me to say.
Lindsay, welcome to the podcast.
How are
you?
I'm good, Tom.
How are you?
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah.
I am excited.
And, guys, backstory.
So Jim Hahn, if you remember, came on the show.
(00:24):
We talked about thought leader liaisons, whichis a great episode.
He had made the introduction to Lindsay, andI'm excited to have her on.
So, before we get into that, we do have asponsor.
It is time to register for this year's FiercePharma Engage conference.
It actually used to be Mass West.
(00:46):
Big fan of Mass West and Mass East.
I'm gonna be there.
It's gonna be an amazing event.
It's a little different this year.
So it's a much larger event where Fierce isactually having different tracks.
So they're gonna have pharma marketing, PR andcommunications, medical affairs, business
development, and licensing.
(01:07):
So it's gonna be broken out a little bit, butamazing content, amazing speakers.
This is going to take place in San Diego, AprilTwenty Ninth through May 1.
So for more information, go to fierce pharmaengage twenty twenty five, and you could
register.
And, I look forward to seeing you there.
So, Lindsay, we're gonna talk about the powerof nontraditional KOL engagement, which I think
(01:34):
is gonna be an awesome conversation.
To start, like, can can we like, can you definewhat nontraditional KOL engagement what that
term actually means?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So so, Tom, what it means to me and and to myteam is really leading from an HCP centric
perspective or approach.
(01:55):
It's really peeling back the layers of what'shappening in in the world of the HCP,
understanding what are their opportunities,what are their challenges, what are the things
they're facing on a daily basis, and reallyseeking to understand from a place of
curiosity.
It's as someone on my team says who I think isabsolutely brilliant, she she describes it as
(02:16):
beyond the transaction.
You're really there to get to know them and tounderstand them.
And so that's what it means to me.
So focus being on exclusively on them is whatyou're
Yes.
On their world, on what is happening from a acurrent trend perspective, what's happening
from a future trend perspective in health care,in the health care ecosystem.
(02:38):
Really, like, seeking to understand what whatare their obstacles in their current
environment.
And how does that differ from what we mightcall so if that's the nontraditional, what
would be the more standard way of KOLengagement?
Yeah.
So the way that I look at it, especially ifyou're thinking about a traditional MSL type of
engagement or an MSL type of interaction, it istypically aligned to the medical strategy,
(03:06):
right, medical affairs strategy or thestrategic imperatives.
So it's a a situation where you're going in,you're often reacting to a question that the
HCP has.
You're you're looking for a a way tocommunicate from a perspective of scientific
exchange.
You're going in with an objective that's prettyspecific to something that they've either asked
(03:29):
about, inquired about, told you that they havean interest in.
You might be going in looking for anopportunity to generate some data with them or
looking to fill some gaps if there's researchgaps.
So it's very, I would say, focusedstrategically on the medical affairs strategic
imperatives.
(03:50):
Well, it makes sense because MSLs are givingthese strategic objectives, and that becomes
the driver.
Exactly.
Right.
Exactly.
And they almost go in with that, and and thatkinda guides and leads them into that
engagement and and the approach to thatengagement.
So what you're saying is not that you youobviously need to keep the strategic objectives
(04:15):
front and center.
You keep them in mind, but you go from thestandpoint of the KOL needs first and then work
back.
Is is that is that a
Yeah.
And and and, Tom, so let me be very clear.
Like, we need MSLs to do exactly what I justdescribed.
We need them to go in and and deliver on thescience and to have that scientific
(04:35):
conversation, to deliver the data, to answerquestions, or really allow the HCP to share
their concerns, and then we back that up withdata.
So we we have to have that.
I mean, that is a critical element of of ofpharmaceutical engagement.
Right?
And we need those strong MSLs to be able todeliver on the science.
(04:56):
But what I'm suggesting is that you can doboth.
You can really, seek to understand what ishappening in the world of the HCPs that we're
serving and get to know them from a deeplyhuman perspective, understand what makes them
tick, and then also fill those needs throughthe strategic imperatives that you have to
deliver on for the organization.
(05:17):
You can do both, and it's not an either or.
Much of the work that my team has executedaround came from ideas that happened from
exchanges in the field because the TLL or theMSL or whoever was interfacing with that
provider or health care professional reallytook the time to get to know what was important
(05:38):
to them.
And they brought those ideas and innovationback to the team or back to the organization
internally to see what internal stakeholderscould partner with us to generate some new
resources, to generate a new initiative, orcollaborate with an HCP in a different way.
And so you can do both, I guess, is my is myencouragement.
(05:58):
Well and let's talk about why this isimportant.
It sounds important.
It sounds it sounds feasible, but I'd love tohear from you, and why you think this is so
important.
Yeah.
Well, one of the things that's happening in thecurrent health care ecosystem is that health
care providers are incredibly burnout.
(06:20):
I've read statistics around moderate burnout isoccurring in sixty percent of health care
providers.
That's that's exceptional.
Yeah.
And time is our most valuable currency.
And so in order to stay relevant, in order toreally have a meaningful interaction with HCPs,
it has to be with an understanding of what'simportant to them and delivering on in a way
(06:43):
that is, you know, creating a a value add forthem.
And so if you don't take the time to take astep back and get to know them, get to know
what drives them, get to know why they wentinto medicine or into health care in in the
first place, What is keeping them fromfulfilling, you know, their their dream, if you
will?
How are they approaching their day?
(07:04):
Is it is it really a way are they approachingtheir day from the perspective of what they
thought when they went into health care?
What are the obstacles?
And so when you take a step back and get toknow people on that level, you can hear what's
happening in their world, and you make yourselfmore relevant.
You make your interaction more relevant, andyou really create a meaningful dialogue and
(07:26):
exchange that is on their terms.
You're attuned to their needs.
And that, I I think, is incredibly important inthe current environment.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So we talked about the the what, and we talkedabout the why.
Let's talk about the how.
So how how does this happen?
What are some of the questions that MSLs shouldbe asking KOLs in this nontraditional approach?
(07:51):
Yeah.
I think you can start by asking, know, what wasit that drew you to health care?
What was it that drew you to the particularspecialty that you're currently practicing in?
What keeps you up at night?
What are the things that if you had more timein your day, what would you spend it doing
within the scope of your of of your practice?
What's your biggest frustration?
(08:13):
What what is providing you joy as you treatpatients?
What is it about treating patients that youreally enjoy or this disease state that you
really enjoy?
What does success look like to you ultimately?
And and, really, when you align on what's whatis happening in their world, what is critical
(08:33):
then is that you really take the time toactually listen.
You're listening to how they're responding toyou.
You're listening with the perspective of, can Iactually help?
Can I actually do something, bring someinnovation to this HCP or to their practice or
to the health care ecosystem so that I canactually help, that we can do something of
(08:54):
meaningful difference?
It's not just listening and asking questionsand providing lip service.
It's seeking solutions based on what you'rehearing.
You know, and and it's like you said, thosequestions are all about them, their needs,
their problems, what's keeping them up atnight.
(09:15):
So, I mean, it makes total sense.
It's funny.
I was at a I was doing a workshop recently, andand, one of the things that came up is, you
know, if you're on an interview and they theyask you to sell them a pen could be any
interview.
It doesn't have to be a sales interview.
It's just kind of a common thing.
Yeah.
And and it's like all the you know, obviously,all the questions that you would ask to uncover
(09:39):
what that person would want in a pen.
That's the whole strategy.
But That's right.
This guy broke it down into he said, look.
I'm gonna break this down into one question.
What's the most important thing to you in apen?
And once, like, the light bulb went off, it'slike, what's the most important thing to you?
(10:00):
In really any situation, KOLs, what's the mostimportant thing to you?
Right.
You have a one on one meeting with one of youryour team members.
What's the most important thing you wanna talkabout?
Yeah.
That really gets to the core of what it what ison that person's mind at that time.
So I'm adding that question, but it didn't comefrom me.
I actually learned it in a workshop, and Ithink it's amazing.
(10:23):
And I want I've been using it a lot, so I justwanted to mention that.
But how let's let's get back into, how how doyou think an MSL can develop a strategy to
personalize their communication and theirapproach for individual KOLs?
(10:45):
Again, I I mean, to your point, it's very welltaken, Tom.
It's it's understanding what's important tothem.
Right?
And if if you take the time to understandwhat's important to them, then you can
personalize your approach through yourresources, through education, through, you
know, really levering on everything that isavailable to the MSL that they can actually
bring to the HCP around what they've identifiedas being important to them.
(11:09):
The other thing I think is is really important,as I mentioned, is if you uncover something
that is important to them and there's somethingthat's actionable in that that you can
everything that my team has has really workedon or all of the initiatives that have come to
the table through through this work is that itstarted with a spark of an idea through a
(11:31):
discussion with an HCP.
And it didn't just stop though.
It wasn't just a dialogue.
It wasn't lip service.
It was, okay.
Let's think about how we can create solutions.
Let's talk about how we can collaborate ordevelop resources or develop content or show up
in a different way based on what you're tellingme.
And so I think it's really finding the internalstakeholders in your organization to help you
(11:58):
to deliver on what you've identified as aninnovative solution based on your conversation
with your HCP because then they will realizethat this is this is personal.
You are taking what you've learned from them,and you're actually solutioning around that,
and you're delivering for them.
And so it becomes very personal when you askfor their input, when you ask for their
(12:19):
collaboration on something, when you when theyjoin you in that process.
And so they can do that in a few differentways.
One being, you know, maybe you for example, wejust had a an advisory board within the
oncology space around health care providerburnout, seeking to understand what is
happening from the burnout perspective,specifically in oncology.
(12:42):
And so many people were interested inparticipating in this topic because we were
seeking to understand, but we were also lookingfor solutions to help them in the current
environment.
And so when they realize that we're puttingtheir insights into action, it becomes very
personal to them, and we actually ask for theirhelp along the way.
So it's really a kind of joint effort to get tothe heart of what's challenging them or what
(13:07):
is, interfering with their ability to practicemedicine in the way that they want, and we are
coming to the table with a partnership to toreally find a path forward.
And that's what could be more personal thanthat.
Yeah.
It makes total sense.
The this this makes complete sense, and I'msure knowing, the MSLs that are really good at
(13:29):
this, anyone that hasn't been taking thisapproach is I I think is gonna see a big
difference.
But what would you say are some of thechallenges in this approach?
I think, Tom, if you're if you're approachingHCPs from this lens, again, it can't just be
(13:49):
lip service.
It can't be a bait and switch.
It can't be let's talk about all these thingsthat are, you know, keeping you up at night or
the things that are challenging you and, oh, bythe way, now I wanna switch gears and talk
about the things that are important to me.
And so it really has to be a genuine curiosity,an opportunity to listen, and then an
(14:10):
opportunity to act.
And I'm fortunate to work for an organizationthat actually invests in this type of work,
that invests in above brand initiatives thatactually allow for us to be, you know, seen in
a different light.
And it is I think what you the challenge thatyou run up against potentially is if your
organization really doesn't have a big appetiteappetite for this type of engagement or type of
(14:33):
work.
And so you have to really have the courage togo internally, speak to leadership, talk about
the why, tell them why this is important to theHCP, to the health care ecosystem, tell them
that there is an opportunity here that willhelp set them and the organization apart.
And and I really think that you have to havesome some I I guess, courage is the word.
(14:58):
Courage to go internally and say, this isimportant.
And if we do this, you know, there will be animpact, and there will be value to not only the
HCP, but to our organization.
I think this work takes time, Tom.
It's not just something that happens overnight.
It it really is something that is a marathonand not a sprint, and these initiatives often
(15:20):
are are large projects that that take manyyears.
And so we've actually created a full team outof this work.
It's not this is not an MSL team, Tom.
This is a team in medical affairs that hasreally come from all different backgrounds.
I've got a nurse practitioner on my team.
I have a physician assistant on my team, andthey actually are tasked tasked with creating
(15:44):
educational resources for advancedpractitioners in the neurology community.
And it's a we have a portal that they'vedeveloped, and they created podcasts.
They've created modules.
They've created a community where they canactually have advanced practitioners join, and
and they network with each other.
(16:04):
They they really have created a nice community.
And so, again, it's not just, you know,listening to what they're saying.
And in this case, the HCPs were or the advancedpractitioners in their neurology space were
telling us that they needed more education,that often they were coming into their practice
environment without a whole lot of backgroundon the disease state.
(16:26):
And so they needed a place to go where theycould find a mentor, they could find content,
they could find education, they could findcommunity.
And so we created that.
And, again, it took, you know, a lot ofinitiative of people really showing the
organization why this was important in orderfor them to invest in this work.
And now we have over 250 advanced practitionersthat are enrolled in the portal.
(16:51):
And so really is a value add here.
It's something that is important and meaningfulin the space, and it, again, sets the
organization apart.
But we had to have leadership that believed inthis work, and, fortunately, we do.
Yeah.
No.
It sounds like it.
Congratulations.
You guys are, you're trailblazers, and you guysare doing some amazing things.
Thank you.
We we like to think so.
(17:12):
I'm very proud of this work.
Yeah.
No.
It's awesome.
Really proud of the organization.
So I always ask anytime I talk about KOLengagement, I always like to ask if there are
any words of caution or guardrails as itrelates to compliance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's such a good question.
So we wouldn't be able to do any of this workwithout our compliance and legal partners.
(17:36):
And and what I would encourage anyone to do ifthey have an idea, if they have a spark, if
they've listened to their HCP and they wannacome to the table with an innovative resource
or an approach, an initiative, a work stream, apilot, if you will.
I think what you really need to do is engageyour compliance and legal counterparts, from
(17:56):
the very beginning.
Help have them help you create the pathforward.
I call them my compliance and legal partnersbecause they're exactly that.
They're partners with me on this journey.
They're partners with my team.
They allow us to find the right way to moveforward that, you know, keeps the integrity of
what we're trying to do at its core, but alsodoes it in a way that keeps the organization
(18:19):
and the the work compliance.
And that is incredibly important because we wereally need to be thoughtful about that in this
current landscape and environment that we'reall working in.
Yeah.
And would you say knowing that you've been inyou know, you mentioned oncology.
You also mentioned the burnout factor.
(18:41):
Are are there groups or are there therapeuticareas that this nontraditional approach may not
be best for, or are there certain KOLs that youmay wanna take a different approach?
I'm curious as to where this if if there's a, Idon't know, if there's a group that may not be
(19:02):
good for this.
Yeah.
It's a really good question, Tom.
So I in my experience so my team is across ourenterprise, which means we work across all
therapeutic areas in within the scope of BMDSirono.
So that's neurology, oncology, fertility, andHIV.
And right now, we haven't found an area wherethis approach is not welcomed, and it's not
(19:29):
creating a different type of engagementapproach for the organization.
I'm not I'm not sure.
I can't speak to other therapeutic areasbecause I just don't have the experience to
say, for example, in cardiology or neurosurgerythat this wouldn't be valuable.
Right?
But from what we've seen, this has reallyallowed us to engage in a different way.
(19:54):
In fact, that we were at ACTRUM's, one of thecongresses in the MS arena a couple of about a
month ago, and one of the health care providersthat I met with actually said no one else is
talking about these types of things.
I've spent many many, you know, hours andmeetings throughout the course of this meeting,
and and and no one is talking about these thesetop kinds of topics.
(20:18):
So, for example, we have another work streamaround health equity and AI and really looking
at can AI bridge the gap in vulnerable patientpopulations.
And so we're just getting feedback from fromdifferent, you know, health care providers on
that journey and on the work that we're doing.
We're in partnership with the Economist ImpactGroup on that work stream.
(20:40):
And, you know, the the provider that we spoketo was like, you know, this is totally novel.
This is completely different than what we'reengaging in conversation around with any other
pharmaceutical company.
And, you know, you should be really proud ofthat because it makes me really lean in and
wonder what is different about what you'redoing and why why are you investing in this
type of work?
(21:01):
And we are because, ultimately, our our mantraat EMV Sirono is as one for patients.
And if we can, you know, if we can change theapproach just a little bit so that we can
ultimately serve patients better, then we'redoing a service to everyone that we're engaging
with.
And so I I don't see an area where this if it'swell thought out, if, again, we're listening,
(21:26):
if we're really taking the time to seek from aplace of curiosity, I don't see where this
could have a shortcoming.
But, again, it has to be genuine, and it has tobe followed with action.
Mhmm.
And how do you see this evolving?
I mean, is this gonna be the new norm?
Is this gonna be the way the wave of thefuture?
I hope so.
(21:46):
I I mean, I can only speak for EMV Sirono, andI know we're incredibly committed to this
journey.
We, again, have a vision to elevate humanityand spark discovery.
And, you know, that is a real that's somethingwe take very seriously.
We want to make sure that we're innovating, andthis work is innovative.
(22:09):
And I really welcome other organizations toenter into this space, enter into this journey
because, you know, it will elevate.
It'll raise the bar.
It will help us to think differently, to thinkbigger.
And so I I hope it's the wave of the future.
I hope we continue to look for nontraditionalways to engage our HCPs and, again, create
(22:29):
solutions that serve the whole health careecosystem.
I think we we need this type of work that thatwe're in a we're in a tough time in our
society, in the health care landscape, in theworld.
And if we can approach people from a deeplyhuman perspective, really understanding what's
(22:51):
happening in their world, in their day to day,I think we'll do a better job overall in
serving both the health care providers that weserve and their patients.
Yeah.
And I wanna put my recruiter hat on for asecond.
You know, I am a recruiter by day, podcaster bynight.
I think this approach is the way people shouldhandle their interviews.
(23:13):
I think one of the biggest mistakes I see withjob seekers is they it's all about them.
How does this company how is this company gonnabe a good fit for me, and how is this job gonna
be good for me?
And it's not as much of what can I do for thethis organization?
How can I be valuable to this hiring manager?
(23:35):
How can I prove to them that I am a fit forthis position, and I'm gonna be good for
organization?
So, it again, it goes into the same type ofapproach where you're focusing on the other
person.
Right.
Right.
So I I mean, I think it's the same concept.
It is.
It is.
I mean, we're we're all I mean, if we don'tunderstand what's important to those that we're
(24:04):
interfacing with, then it's really a one-sidedagenda that we're working from.
And so it's when it's all about you and ityou're never gonna meet anyone else's needs or
be relevant or valuable or, you know, createcreate meaning.
And you have to have that kind of purpose asyour backdrop.
I think it's, you know, seeking to understandthose around you, seeking to to really work
(24:28):
from a place of, you know, how can I supportyou?
How can we help to make things better in anincredibly complicated, you know, world and
system?
I think the the beauty of it is is is there'sso much more fulfillment in that.
And I really think at the end of the day, I wejoke on my team.
We say, you know, we're not really working.
(24:49):
This is not a job.
We we are, you know, actually doing work thatis so meaningful that doesn't feel like a job.
I have a career.
I I really enjoy what I do every day.
I see the value in it.
I'm able to surround myself with incrediblythoughtful, caring people that work incredibly
hard that are not afraid to to to block thesystem, if you will, to, you know, challenge
(25:13):
the status quo and to you know, in thisincredible world of disruption that we're all
faced with every day, they're finding thepossibility in it.
And that to me is incredible.
And I think that if you could bring that tothat perspective to an organization if you're
interviewing and really talk about how youcould show up differently in support of their
(25:35):
mission, really think that you could setyourself apart.
Totally.
Yeah.
I totally agree.
I think that that's that's the separator a lotof times with candidates
Right.
With people that are really good at doing that.
I completely agree.
And and you see it.
I'm actually preparing to interview for a for arole right now.
(25:56):
And and, you know, I'm looking for someone whocan come to the table with me and have ideas
and not be afraid to push boundaries and and,you know, in the face of a no, if you will, or
I don't think we can do that or there's I don'tknow how to find a way.
It's, you know, finding the way, finding thepath forward, and showing the organization,
(26:17):
showing the team that, you know, you're notafraid to to push boundaries because you
understand the need so deeply that it becomes amission for you.
Yep.
Alright.
So last question.
Yeah.
People are listening.
Right?
We're gonna get back to MSLs now.
People are listening.
They're like, this is great.
Can't wait to try this.
I'm gonna do this.
Great advice.
(26:38):
So what would you tell those folks?
Like, where do they start?
What advice do you have?
Like, what what could you tell those folks thatare ready to start doing more of this if they
have it already?
Yeah.
I mean, just try it.
Bring your heart to work.
You know, if you get to know your HCPs as humanbeings that they went into health care to care
(27:00):
for people.
They went into health care because they believethat they can make a difference, that they
could, you know, change the course of apatient's life that has potentially a chronic
disease or, you know, something that they'rethey're battling.
And our health care providers are arestruggling as well, and they're struggling in
this current dynamic in this environment.
(27:22):
And and it really is it's incumbent upon us toto go in and and seek to understand and to see
them as human beings and to genuinely hearthem, to listen, and then to act.
And so I I encourage anyone to take this typeof approach, and and you'll find so much more
joy in what you do because you can alignyourself to the things that you know are
(27:43):
important to someone else, and it's no longerjust about you.
At the end of the day, we are we're really allseeking connection, and, you know, it that's
not you will make yourself so much morerelevant and so much more.
You you'll you'll become a joy to interfacewith, and it's not just another MSL or rep or
(28:04):
TLL or, you know, someone coming through thedoor to try to take their time that's already
incredibly, you know, maxed.
You'll be a relief in their day.
You'll be someone that they want to interfacewith because they're learning from you, and
you're learning from them, and it's apartnership.
So I I encourage anyone to try.
Like, try just to bring their heart to work.
(28:25):
I'll tell you what a quote to end thisconversation.
Bring your heart to work.
Yeah.
Love that.
Awesome.
So we're gonna leave it there.
Lindsay, you're awesome.
I appreciate you.
This is
a great conversation.
And, as always, thank you guys for all yoursupport.
Thank you for sharing the show and for, beingso amazing.
Couldn't do this show without you.
(28:45):
And, if you got value in this, definitely tellyour friends, and, we'll see you next time.
Lindsey, thanks again.
Thank you so much, Tom.
It was a pleasure to be here.
Good
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