May 20, 2025 • 56 mins
In this episode of The Nail the Recruiting Process Podcast, I’m joined by one of the most respected voices in Men’s basketball: Boston University Head Coach Joe Jones. Coach Jones is a three-time Patriot League Coach of the Year and has built BU into a model of consistency, with top-three conference finishes in five of the last six seasons. But this conversation goes far beyond accolades.
Coach Jones opens up about what it means to coach with purpose in an era of rapid change—where NIL, the transfer portal, and shifting timelines have challenged even the most development-focused programs. We talk about what’s getting lost in this new system, what still matters, and why relationships, accountability, and long-term growth have to stay at the center of the college athlete experience.
We also dive into the unique perspective Coach Jones has as both a head coach and a "basketball dad"—his daughter just wrapped up a standout career at Bowdoin, and his son is preparing to play at Penn. The way he navigated both roles—as a recruiter and a dad—offers an honest, grounded take on what young athletes and families should actually be looking for when making college decisions.
If you’re a recruit, a parent, or a coach trying to make sense of what truly matters in this new landscape, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
All right, Coach Jones, thank you so much again for making the time.
It's great to see you.
to see you my man, Long Island, love it.
Love it, love it.
You know out in Buffalo my wife and I are always craving a good slice so I'm we're that'sit's like a summer goal for us get back down there and have good pizza
bro I was all up in upstate New York I went to our swig so I know what it's like to beupstate New York my man
(00:26):
Yeah, well, you know, that's one of the other parts of the state where you, you know, onceyou're there, you got to have good people connections because you don't see the sun very
much.
That's why actually I look forward to asking you a little bit about us.
We go in a moment.
But first, I want to start.
um This is an opportunity, I think, for a lot of young people to learn about coaching atyour level, in addition to playing at your level, something that's really cool about you.
(00:52):
and in general, the basketball family that you're a part of is you're kind of a beacon oflongevity in the sport, which is harder and harder to have happen.
My impression of you has always been that you were very relationship oriented.
I would love to sort of learn how that was instilled in you, kind of what made you buyinto that.
Because you know what it's like with young coaches.
Like I've seen a lot of young coaches that that's not necessarily their currency, but theyalso burn out.
(01:16):
So could you talk me through how that started for you?
Yeah, think my mom, I remember my mom saying this to me when I was a young guy.
And she was like, I'm so proud of you because like, you know, I grew up in a neighborhoodin the seventies.
Everyone had large families, right?
It's the last way it was back then.
So everybody had large families.
(01:36):
So they were literally kids everywhere, everywhere.
And in my neighborhood in North Babylon, I was someone that was friends with all theyounger kids and would
you know, uh help them and like, you know, they, you know, I'd invite them to play sportswith us and I was, I'd hang out with them and my mom was just always like, that's so cool
(02:02):
that you are kind of big brother to the other kids in the neighborhood.
uh And then I just think I've had some really cool coaches and big brothers myself, guysin neighborhood that looked out after me.
You know, that's kind of the neighborhood we I grew up in where I think the older guyskind of looked out for the younger guys.
(02:27):
And so I was just someone that I think had a lot of different relationships across theboard.
And then I was someone when I went to school, the school was pretty, you know, it waspretty diverse.
And the fact that it was it was black and white and most of the black kids lived on oneside of the bridge and most of the white kids lived on the other side of the bridge.
(02:48):
And I think I was someone that just adapted very well.
I played sports, little league football with white kids.
And so I was just someone that was friends with everyone and didn't really think aboutcolor maybe as much as some other kids did at the same stage.
So I was just someone that was probably, uh know, someone that bridged the gap, I think attimes uh for people from different uh social backgrounds or even racial lines.
(03:18):
You know, that's kind of how I was always.
I don't know.
I won't say I was raised that way.
It was just something that I kind of fell into because I played sports and was someonethat just enjoyed people's company.
Was it important for you then, because I know you were a D3 athlete, was it important foryou then to kind of seek out being on a team environment where you felt that camaraderie?
(03:43):
Like was that a part of your decision?
Yeah, think I was really, yeah, I think when I went, I was like a lot of kids when Iplayed high school basketball at Half Hollow Hills West.
uh My best man and my wedding was my back court partner and I was his best man.
uh You know, we're making plans to hang out this summer.
(04:04):
uh And so I always had those type of relationships.
And I was really tight with the other guys on the team.
And so that was something that was important for sure when I went up to Oswego, fillingthat camaraderie uh with the older guys.
I remember that.
And then a big part of it was the coach.
(04:24):
uh And so when I'm still really close with today, the assistant was the one that did thebulk of the work.
But I remember going up to school and one night I hung out with the guys.
Another night I went to the coach's house for a meal.
and hung out with his family.
had two smaller kids that were young and I went up to their room upstairs and played withthe younger boy and hung out.
(04:48):
And I remember kind of like that feeling pretty cool, uh just that like that homeenvironment.
And I just hit it off with him.
So I think the coach played a big part in that as well.
And something I've learned, just in kind of learning more about you is you still have agood relationship with that coach now.
Now, oh, please go ahead.
(05:08):
I'd love to hear more about it.
were, we played Colgate every year up there and you know, he comes to the games and comesto the locker room before the game and there are times that he stayed in the hotel with us
and you know, we kind of try to make a point to see him, you know, every year.
We talk on the phone.
I'm still really close with his wife.
She was like a second mom to me.
(05:29):
I was like the older son in his family.
I really, I was really close.
spent...
summers at his house.
So school would end in May, I would go for a month and live with my coach, upstate NewYork.
Yeah, he still bust my chops that I didn't finish painting the barn.
So he had this barn and it was the listen, man, you know, it got a little shaky, you know,trying to get to the top of that thing.
(05:55):
You know, I was on a ladder, the ladder wasn't overly stable.
So those those last three levels did not get did not get painted, man.
So he still bust my chops about not finishing the barn.
But we had some good times, man, good times.
Self preservation is important.
You're a talented athlete.
We got to keep you healthy.
This is interesting to me though, because I can identify, you know, when I was, this wouldbe 23, was the first time I met Reggie Witherspoon out in Buffalo and Jim Quitchoff.
(06:29):
And the way that Reggie and Coach Quitch, Coach Heck and Turner would coach and the waythey talked about leadership,
That was a very important thing for me in kind of getting my gears turning.
Was there a part of you at that age that was already like, I think I would want to getinto coaching after college because I know you coached at the high school level before you
(06:50):
started the college level.
Like were there, were there things you were taking away from that experience at that time?
Or are you just more like in the moment and just enjoying it?
Well, the thing that happened for me is that my best friend's older brother was a guy bythe name of Robbie Weingard, who actually ironically played at Hofstra back in the
mid-80s.
(07:11):
And he actually led Division I in 19, I want to say, 85 in assists, which is crazy, right?
Like crazy.
His senior year, led the whole country in assists, averaged like 9.9 assists a game.
Phenomenal floor leader.
So he was like my big brother mentor.
uh He used to kick my butt, man.
(07:31):
I still have not beaten that guy in a one-on-one game.
uh And so I was gonna be a freshman in college and he's, you know, I had trained under hima lot and he said, hey man, you should come and work this camp called Kutcher Sports
Academy.
He was in the Catskill Mountains in Monticello, New York.
He's like, there's a league at night.
(07:52):
And there's some really good players there.
You know, it's a chance for you to train during the summer when you have free time andthen Compete against some division one guys.
So I'm like, oh man, that sounds great.
So that's what I did so I was up during the day so I had a bunk of eight to ten kids andThen I taught basketball for three hours a day two in the morning one in the afternoon and
(08:17):
Then you coach the team at night for for league
And then there was time to play during pickup during the lunch break that we would have,like a three hour break, we'd always play pickup then, and then we had leagues at night.
And then you could always find time to train at night and the whole bit.
So it was awesome.
And I did that for five summers.
(08:39):
But I remember the first time I had my first team and my first practice, and we were inlayup, we were in a layup line, I put them in a layup line to start practice to warm them
up.
And I remember,
the feeling that I had in that moment.
And it was just different than anything else I've ever felt.
I could still feel that.
(08:59):
And it just was one of those things was like, that was a big moment for me.
And you could feel it.
I felt like, my God, this is so much fun.
I'm loving this.
You know, I'm 17 years old, the kids are 13, and they look up to you, but also closeenough where you have a relationship with them that's a little different because you're
(09:20):
close in age.
And man, was, yeah, exactly, exactly.
It was a lot of fun, man.
And I think that was my wow moment.
Didn't know that I would pursue coaching, but I remember that feeling.
I do, I do.
So I certainly don't want to speak for you, but I'm hearing a couple things that reallystand out to me and I want to put them together and you tell me if this math adds up.
(09:47):
It seems like the big brother thing is important to you.
Seems like relationships are really important to you.
Would you say flashing forward now, you know, in the prime of your career, are these stillthings that are part of the ethos of BU basketball?
that you're going to recruit building relationships that you want to have young mentors onyour team?
(10:10):
Are these qualities that you're trying to instill in young men?
Yeah, that's a great, great question, Jared, you know, and so, you know, I, now that I'vebeen in this for a long time, you reflect a lot, right?
So you do some reflecting like, my God, I can't believe this has happened for me.
Can't believe this has happened for so long.
and you're always talking with young people cause you're recruiting them and then you'recoaching them and you're trying to give them advice and you're giving them maybe some
(10:39):
experiences that can, they can
they can learn from that you went through.
And so you're always in this space that you're talking about.
So you're always talking about those things.
And so for me, I always wanted just to create an environment around my program uh that wasone that the guys felt like, hey man, coach loves me.
(11:02):
No matter what I do, that dude loves me.
He's got my back.
He cares about me.
uh
more than just someone that's gonna make a shout out, make a play.
We're talking about what I could do as a leader of this program that can impact the restof their lives, not just in the moment, right?
And so what are we talking about, right?
(11:22):
So I just talked to a young man, got us, our team GPA was a 3.45, so we have a lot ofsmart students, way smarter than I was, but this kid got a C plus in the course.
And I heard from my assistant that part of the reason why he got a C plus was because hejust didn't follow directions the right way.
And he has a history of this, right?
(11:42):
This kid has a history of this.
So my thing, when I got him on the phone just now, it was like, okay, my man, like, let'sjust talk, let's just talk man to man.
And let's understand that the way that you're attacking these courses at times, this isgoing to follow you, man.
Right?
(12:03):
So if you're not going to be someone that's going to be in tune with what's going on, askquestions, uh you're going to miss out on some things later on in life.
Like these are life lessons.
This is not about you getting a C plus because we tell our guys A's and B's, no C's.
And so my thing was to try to hold him accountable for our standard, but also help himunderstand like these are things.
(12:30):
that if you can grasp with all the talents that you have, now you're gonna be able to goto another level.
If you don't, it's gonna hold you back.
And so the things that held you back was that you are not focused enough and you miss outon information and now you don't know when you're supposed to hand something in.
That's something that should have happened in middle school, not in your junior year ofcollege, right?
(12:56):
So let's assess this, let's tackle this.
let's not run away from it, let's not make excuses about it.
So that's what you're trying to do as a coach is make sure that you're holding these guysaccountable, not only for the things that are going on in court, but for the things that
are gonna impact their lives off the floor as well.
And I feel like that's kind of what I'm all about.
My background in counseling, who I am, those are things that I'm about, that I'm gonna beinvested totally in a total kid, not just one element of
(13:26):
you just hit on something that's really important to me that I actually have some data on.
think young people and their parents as they navigate the recruiting process hugelymisunderstand this part and I'll try to explain it concisely.
What I would kind of describe to you is that they put head coaches on this giganticpedestal where they are like these my way or the highway people and I think the average
(13:48):
person that will hear this interview is going to think this kid fell below your standard.
So you threw him off the team immediately.
Where, you know what I mean?
So, what the reality actually looks like is like, no, we are a conditional family.
I'm bringing somebody in to be a part of my family.
And when I'm actually vetting people as I recruit, I'm actually just vetting people who Ithink when you do make mistakes, I think you will be receptive to my teaching and the
(14:15):
bounce back will be within our channel.
Would you agree with that assessment?
Absolutely.
And so that's kind of what we do, right?
Like that's exactly what we do.
We had some Zoom calls.
we're now, you know, the one great thing about COVID is that you can make use of the Zoomnow, right?
So we have Zoom calls.
um And I'm doing the same thing.
(14:37):
I'm vetting.
I'm trying to get a feel for what the parents are like, right?
I'm trying to see, okay, is this someone that, is the kid someone that I want part of myprogram as important?
Are the parents...
are going to be, they're going be part of the program too.
Do I want them a part of my family?
Do they really understand?
And then our, you know, our, the way we do things, our values align.
(15:00):
And if that happens, okay, that's a good mix.
that doesn't align, it might not be a great fit.
And so that's the most important thing is for families to understand that, as you said,you know, this is going to be an education.
This is going to be a process.
And sometimes the families and the kid doesn't, they don't understand it's a process tobecome a great player.
(15:25):
It's a process.
my God, they don't want to hear it.
And so what you have to do as you're telling the kid how great they are and how much theycan make an impact, you have to be reasonable with what you're saying.
So now when there is a struggle, they understand you've already had that conversationthat, my man, we feel like you could be a great player, but there are going to be steps to
(15:46):
this.
this is gonna take some time before these things happen.
Sometimes you could tell a family that and they all hear he's gonna be great.
They don't hear all the stuff that you're talking about in terms of the steps that theytake.
But certainly the point that you just made that if you go play for a guy that is a qualityperson, hopefully they're reacting the way you did in terms of like, okay, you didn't do
(16:13):
this great, I'm not happy about it, but.
We're just gonna help you through this.
We care about you and we're gonna always have your back.
very excited to talk a little bit more about that family component in a moment.
But first, you mentioned COVID.
um I mean, there isn't a sector of anything, especially given your background of mentalhealth work.
(16:39):
There isn't a sector of anything that wasn't affected by the pandemic shutdown.
But when I talk to a lot of my friends from college, my friends from graduate school thatdo not work in basketball, what I
try to explain to them is I want you to imagine that a lot of the parameters of how we dowhat we do were one way before the COVID shutdown.
(17:03):
And then we all came back and they were completely different.
The red shirting for transfers wasn't a thing anymore.
NIL has started to take off.
There isn't regulations in place yet.
I'm imagining, you know, and before I got sick, we were navigating this at Kinesia.
So I'm imagining you were navigating at BU.
A lot of the ways you recruit and build those relationships is kind of in flux right now.
(17:28):
How are you navigating it, especially as someone, you know, as longly tenured as you havebeen?
Yeah, I think um you said this.
So I'm, am much more of a relationship person, right?
So I'm not a transactional type of guy.
And so, you know, early in conversation, you kind of know, okay, they're coming from adifferent, you know, they're looking at this thing differently than I'm looking at this
(17:56):
thing.
This probably won't be a good match.
So we're just kind of like going through the process of the recruiting part of this.
trying to figure out who matches up with our values.
We talk about selflessness, accountability, toughness.
Do they match up with that?
Are they looking for a quick buck or do they want to get a great experience for their kid?
(18:19):
And so for me, we work hard at trying to provide our guys with internships in thesummertime and their field of study as they become juniors and seniors.
um We're really trying to set guys up to be
to be successful way after their time uh at BU ends.
(18:39):
And so that's kind of what we're all about.
And that's what we're selling.
That hasn't changed.
But there's going to be an IL component of what we're doing.
There's going to be some of that as time goes on.
We're not going to run away from that.
But still, at the bottom line, it's still going to be at the heart of what we're doingwill not change, at the heart of what we're talking about, who we are.
(19:01):
is not going to change.
And the thing that I talk to my staff about all the time is I pride myself on presentingmyself as I am, not something that I try to be to get you to come or get him to come.
I want to be true to who I am because that's what I'm preaching to my staff and to myplayers.
(19:22):
And there are going to be challenges now with how this is set up, but I got to stay trueto who I am.
and understand that I'm gonna have to adapt and change, but at the core of me, that's whoI'm gonna continue to be.
stars.
I love that response because that's how we elected to be on our staff as well.
(19:44):
Something that we've experienced, I'm curious if you've had this too, is it's easy whenyou're a teenager to maybe pick the wrong thing as you go through this process.
But then you go through the wrong thing and all of a sudden maybe you're thinking toyourself, you know, I've been at this for a year now and I think that Coach Jones actually
was right about this.
(20:06):
um I've talked to actually high school age kids and their parents.
I've referred to it as re-recruiting, where we have kids we've built great relationshipswith.
They go to a place, they realize it wasn't the right fit for them because that staff ormaybe that program weren't true for themselves.
And all of a sudden they're in the portal and they reach out to you.
Has that been an experience for you as well?
(20:27):
Yeah.
That's been an ex...
I'll tell you the other thing that has happened, is that I've had a lot of guys that haveplayed for me at, you know, at the different schools over the years I've done this.
Where when they're in school, you're like, hey, bro, you need to really hit the books.
You need to study.
You need to...
(20:47):
You know, and they're caught up in being a 20-year-old kid on campus.
Everybody loves you.
You're on TV.
uh
You know, they get caught up in the wrong things, right?
They're to make the league, all this stuff, right?
I've had so many of my former players, before I got to BU, before I got to, well, while Iwas at Columbia, would come back and were like, hey man, I remember that conversation.
(21:09):
You know, they're coming back from playing over in Europe and they have no clue whatthey're going to do.
And so we, you know, I tried to help a few guys.
Hopefully I was helpful.
pointing some guys in the right direction, getting them off their feet.
But it's a very scary thing, man, when basketball has been such a big part of everythingthat you do.
And then when that's gone, the only thing that you can think of, I want to coach now.
(21:32):
I want to stay around the game.
I want to work guys out.
they're not, you know, there's so many other talent.
have so many other talents.
And my job here is to kind of expose them to those people and those things outside ofbasketball.
Like I'm fighting with a kid right now.
I got a kid right now that's got a three nine in Questrom School of Business.
(21:53):
And he's just not been around really any big time people in finance, in business.
that's just, for some of us, we didn't grow up around them.
My dad was a blue collar guy.
All my relatives were blue collar people.
You know, my friends when I was at Hills West, their families were, you know, theirparents were people that went to college and.
(22:16):
and had high level jobs.
So I was exposed to that in that way, but no one in my immediate family had done thosethings.
So sometimes we're talking to first generation, second generation kids, they just haven'tbeen exposed to that.
And I'm battling with them right now about, bro, join a club, go to a meeting, stay forthat seminar.
(22:39):
Where's your resume?
Trying to help him understand because he's got so many gifts.
And I think there are times where
our players are not, well, not our players, but I think in general, we need to do a betterjob of helping these guys think about their lives outside of basketball.
So much is caught up now in making money.
(22:59):
No one's talking about the GPA.
No one's talking about the graduation rates anymore.
That used to be the big thing was all of the APR and the grade.
No one even talks about that anymore.
So I'm really appreciative that you said this because there's a couple of my clients, highschool kids and their parents that I work with right now that I'm going to basically send
(23:21):
a 40 second clip of what you just said to them and be like, see?
Because the problem I'm navigating now is I don't think if you're a recruit that you'renavigating this process correctly if you're not looking at a place where you can see
yourself being extremely successful and supported for a four year experience.
It's okay if
something goes wrong, you'll get supported and we'll help you fix it.
(23:45):
But this idea of, no, no, no, the modern time is like, I'll go here and maybe I'll have anopportunity to get a raise and I'll go to this other place and I'll get...
That ultimately all dries up.
And, you know, being a college athlete, I mean, my experience and I would love to hearyour take, being a college athlete will always help you start a conversation with a
(24:08):
professional, start a conversation
with an interview, but if that's all you got.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
Great point, great point.
No, you nailed it.
mean, we're just not, we're not helping our, we're not helping our young people right now.
We are not, we are not.
And I'm talking about all of us because no one is even, like I see social media all thetime about this guy transferring, this guy, but no one's even talking about, there's no
(24:35):
conversation.
Are these guys gonna graduate?
Like if you go to three different schools, can you graduate?
Like, are there gonna be enough credits that go through?
Like, how is this gonna work?
I'm really concerned about that part of it.
And then what you just said, okay, when my playing days are over, I went to threedifferent schools.
(24:58):
Most of these guys are gonna play over in Europe if they have a chance to play.
That's gonna be done in three years.
Then what?
Now what am I doing?
You know, and that NIL money you got, you know, could have been dried up a long time ago.
And so that's the thing that I think is most detrimental to what we're doing right now, isthat we're not holding our young people accountable.
(25:24):
And I think you can still hold them accountable and help them understand about thegraduation and these other things with NIL.
I don't think it's got to be one or the other.
I just think right now we are on the other side and not even talking about guysgraduating.
The exact quote I said to one of my closest friends in coaching on the phone yesterday is,right now, there is not an apparatus in place to protect the most competitive coaches in
(25:52):
our profession from themselves.
So I honestly really appreciate you bringing light to that because I'm privileged enoughto have this forum to have a great support network, but hearing it from somebody like you
makes my life a lot easier.
yeah, yeah, it's...
Yeah.
You said something interesting um about how we prioritize things in this process, what themessaging is, and I want to kind of move 360 now.
(26:20):
um The very first time that you and I spoke was about a decade ago, and you had a youngdaughter who was tearing up an overnight camp.
And I was her coach, and I was blown away by her potential.
And you know, she was young.
So a lot of my questioning at that time and you know, for my style, she was an eighthgrade.
(26:44):
I'm not going to be like, Sid Jones, the eighth grader.
I'm going to connect you with everyone in the world.
But I was I was definitely hyping her up.
I'm imagining when after you and I spoke that through her entire high school career, thisyoung lady had a lot of options without getting too far into it.
What I can share is she ended up at Bowdoin.
(27:06):
an amazing school with a rich history in women's basketball.
She was a two time All-American.
She was on some dominant team.
She had a great college experience that just ended, I believe.
Can you walk me through what it was maybe like to have some of those conversations withher because you're in this rare position where you're a parent of someone going through it
(27:27):
that could do a number of things based on her aptitude and her ability, but you also knowwhat you know.
Yeah, you know, so Sid, uh I said, and I do remember that conversation and talk with you.
I think I actually called you.
Yeah, because I want to know how she was doing and you know, she ended up going toNoble's.
So the woman that worked at the camp, I forgot her name, uh who's a great, great, was agreat mentor for Sid, worked at Noble's and she ended up, she ended up getting recruited
(28:00):
to Noble's from that camp.
uh
Ellen, Ellen Crawley.
Remember Ellen?
Yeah, yeah, Ellen's awesome.
And so, you know, Ellen coached her.
had great coaching there uh at Nobles.
Alice Gallagher was a great coach for her.
She played with uh Chrissy Ducharm, who was a uh great player uh at Nobles.
(28:24):
Maybe that's her mom, Chrissy.
But she played with, yeah, Caroline Ducharm, yeah.
Yeah.
yeah.
So Sid was like the Robin to Caroline, but they played on some dominant teams.
COVID hit and really Sid probably didn't have as much exposure because of that.
(28:47):
Sid didn't care about the level.
She just wanted to find her place and she loved the small town, know, uh of Bowdoin.
uh
loved it and end up choosing there uh and had a great experience there.
But as she was going through, I was, and my daughter will say this to you, you know, Iwould be pushing her and saying, all right, Sid, you are a fantastic athlete.
(29:17):
We need to develop your overall skill.
And you know, she didn't train as hard as probably I would have liked to have trained, butshe was very competitive and
probably showed up, she was one that would show up to practice every day and give youeverything she had.
And yeah, yeah.
And then when that was over, she was kind of like, all right, you know, I want to go andwatch an episode of Law and Order, you know?
(29:39):
uh And so she ended up having a great career, but probably could have developed into adivision one player, in my opinion, because of her athleticism and understanding.
uh She just needed to work on her skill.
But she ended up going to Bowdoin and they did a great job with her.
(30:00):
In her second year, she got a new coach and her and the new coach were tight and they,phenomenal relationship that they have.
And Sid just prospered, got better and better every year.
And that was the cool thing to watch is her development, man.
Like she was always good.
She got there at first year.
She was a very good player.
(30:20):
I think she was like the leading scorer on the team as a freshman.
And every year she...
She got better and better than by the end of it.
She was, she was lights out, man.
Yeah.
She was, she was really good.
It was fun to watch.
And, know, in the, in the championship game of her, of her last of her senior year, herteam was down by eight and a half and Sid had like, she had two points, two fouls and
(30:46):
three turnovers at halftime, you know, and then the second half, just like she alwaysdoes, man, she
took it to another level, she scored like 22 and a half, she had an N1 to take the leadwith 50 seconds to go.
It was something out of like a movie, man.
She made every big shot down the stretch and it was packed, the gym was packed and thewhole bit.
(31:08):
But what a great experience it was to kind of watch her develop and watch her kind of, Ithink, uh gain so much confidence in herself through that experience.
uh
You know, and then she worked with the Celtics.
Brad Stevens is a good friend, helped her get a job.
She interned with them.
(31:28):
She did a lot of the advanced stats challenge, you know, the whole challenge call.
She worked on a whole plan for that for two summers and had it.
Yeah.
So now she wants to coach.
Yeah.
Yeah.
so cool to hear.
And for anybody that's unfamiliar, the environment of Bowdoin is really cool because thegym sort of has this historic reputation.
(31:56):
They get a huge local community support.
Yeah.
wild, man.
It's so wild.
Really cool.
And, you know, she got to know a lot of the fans over the years and she would go out totheir house for dinner and, you know, in her little space, she's important.
She's important.
So it's been cool to kind of see.
(32:19):
Flipping it because I'm sure at this stage of your career, you're very familiar with whatsome of the trepidation is with parents and what concerns parents and recruits have.
Was there anything about going through that with her as a parent that maybe makes youthink about the recruiting process a little bit differently now?
Yeah, well, my son, my son, I probably had more, my son's gonna be a freshman at Penn nextyear and he plays.
(32:44):
And that was probably harder on me because you know everyone and you're trying not tooverdo it, right?
You're trying to let your friends know that he's out there.
You're trying to let them know that he'd have an interest, but you're also trying not tobe that helicopter parent.
Then you're watching the games.
(33:06):
And you're like, my God, I can't believe they're doing this or they're doing that.
He should be like, you're like every other parent feeling like you want your kid to shine.
And so the best thing you could do is shut up.
You know, I just shut up, man.
You know, even when he was young, even when both my kids were young, I would tell themboth, you do not have to do this because my whole life is basketball.
(33:30):
I drive my wife crazy, that poor woman.
So my whole life is basketball.
And so they were always around that.
They were always in the gym, coming to games, watching it on TV.
The guys were at the house.
They knew the players.
It was just such a big part of their lives.
And I never wanted them to do it because of me.
(33:53):
So when my son was going through high school, I allowed him to have control over his owndestiny, meaning that he got to be so I would.
He got into the car.
And my daughter got into the car.
I would never say one word.
I wouldn't say one word about the game.
If they want to talk about the game, sometimes my wife and them will be talking.
(34:14):
And then it would say, dad, what do you think?
You know, like, like I was not going to do that to my kids.
And so when I, my, my son would always ask me to work out.
I never said to him, let's go work out.
It was, he always dictated when we would go.
And so since he was like third grade, I would work him out.
(34:36):
and then when I went to his games as he got older and there were a lot of frustration, alot of, you know, a of tough, tough nights.
Like that's just the way athletics are.
And I would say, absolutely.
And I wouldn't say a word until he said something.
And then sometimes if I thought I could say something helpful, I would wait to the nexttime, like two days later, three days later.
(35:03):
we'd be in the gym or we'd be sitting on the couch.
And I would say, hey, you know, on that set, on that play, I thought you had this read oryou could have done that.
And so I was not over the top.
And then when he was going to try to pick a high school, he was leaving, he wanted toleave the public school, go to a private school.
That was all him.
And then through this recruiting process, picking Penn, it was all him, you know?
(35:26):
And so, you know, for me, that's kind of how I did it.
And I would tell any parent,
you're better off just shutting up and letting the coach coach.
Now the thing that I would do, I would call the coach and I would say, Hey, you need to,you need to tell him this or you need to, you know, like, or I would say, if I knew he was
frustrated, I would say, okay, I'm about to go work him out.
(35:46):
Tell me what you're seeing so I can help.
But I would never be like, you know, why'd you do this with my son?
He should be doing this.
It was never that it was almost like a collaboration of, of trying to help him.
And I would always say that to the coaches, like, I'm calling you so we can help him, notbecause I'm questioning you what you're doing.
(36:06):
Based on the flow of this conversation, I think you'll be comfortable with me sharing thisand I wanna share it because I think it will be very educational to parents listening.
um After you called me at that camp, I actually shared with a couple coaches and at thattime I was only five years into my coaching career, so I was still kind of green.
I remember in the moment being in disbelief at how inquisitive you were about how youcould help your daughter in the process when you were calling me.
(36:31):
And I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean it in more of,
I will never forget one of the things you specifically said to me, which is I would loveto continue helping my daughter grow.
Can you give me some insight into how she played so that if she asked me for more, I cangive her some of the feedback.
And now that I've had more experience in my mind, I'm like, wow, if more kids and familiesapproached it that way, this would be so much easier.
(36:59):
And I remember actually how hard of a time it was for me to say like, you're not going tolove this.
but she killed it.
Maybe we can build up her non-dominant hand a little bit.
She really liked going one way more than the other, but she did really good and she's gota good future.
those types of conversations really stand out to me.
And if you are a parent and you're listening to this, I can tell you, and I'm sure you'dagree, Coach, those conversations stick out to us as coaches when we're recruiting too.
(37:27):
When you get...
When you get the right set of parents in the room that are leaving it up to their kid andthe kid is trying to take the initiative, that can drive up their stock.
Yep.
Absolutely.
No, absolutely.
Listen, there is no question that parents can hurt the process.
(37:48):
There is no question that parents can impact how a staff is going to view the recruitmentof a kid.
And all you have to do is just let them talk.
Just let the parent talk.
And so when the parents are talking and you have opened any questions and you're, they'regoing to show what they're about.
(38:11):
And for me, I'm going to try to stay away from the parents that I know are going to, thatI know are going to be a pain in the butt, you know, and I, and I tell all the, I tell all
the parents straight up the first time we talked to them, do not send your son here.
If you want to call me and complain about his playing time or his role on the team, if youwant to have that, don't, this is not the right place.
(38:34):
And then,
The few times that has happened in the last like six to seven years, I go right down tothe team and I say to the guys, hey guys, I had a parent call.
Please tell your parents not to call here about basketball.
They can call about your mental health.
(38:55):
They can call about academics, but I'm not having any question.
I'm not having a conversation about basketball.
You guys can knock on the door.
You guys know me.
I'm open to conversation, man.
I talk to every one of you guys.
I text you guys.
I call you guys.
We go out to lunch.
At any time, you can ask me a question.
(39:15):
And then you can communicate that back to your parents.
But I'm not having that, because that's going to crush your development.
And em most of them listen, but I have a few that have their own feelings.
And they all have their own feelings about what's going on with their kid.
course.
one thing that they can't deny is my love for their kid.
(39:38):
They can't question that.
They can question how I'm playing on, what they're doing.
They can't question how much I love my guys, because that is something that is apparent tome.
This is so helpful that you just shared this, because now we can flip it.
And this is a really good place to end.
So this is going to be your last question.
I want to share a data point from my research with you.
(40:01):
And then I want you, I'm imagining you're going to agree with the data point, given howthis conversation is going.
But I'd loved your input afterwards.
So I asked 50 coaches, half of them were scholarship level, half of them werenon-scholarship.
Scale of one to 10.
prepared do you think the average high school kid you're recruiting actually is forcollege basketball?
(40:21):
Like how much do think they actually understand what's going on?
Average response I got was a 3.5 out of 10 and it didn't matter what level.
Everyone said 3.5 out of 10.
So parents will look at me and be like, that's not possible.
He plays AAU.
He works out with trainer.
And I'm like, it's super, super possible.
Tell me, tell me where those areas of limitations are and what these young kids can beworking on.
(40:45):
woo.
So first off, first off, the intensity.
Oh my God.
Like I go to a high school practice.
Most of the high school practice I'm cringing because, and that's the way my high schoolpractice was.
It's just not, it's much more laid back.
Oh my God.
It's very casual.
So the intensity level is going to go way up.
(41:07):
Right?
The next thing that I think guys should really struggle with is the speed of the game.
is that there are now nine other guys on the floor that are faster than you and strongerthan you.
And so the speed of the game is going to take some time for guys to get caught up withthat.
(41:30):
And then the next thing is the physicality of the game.
Right?
And let's go back to the speed of the The speed of the game also will be the IQ becausethings are happening so fast that guys have a hard time reacting early on.
to a close out, where the help defense is coming from.
Like just to make those types of reads, it takes time to get in those situations where thespeed and the guy pressuring you and the length and size of a guy is gonna be different.
(41:57):
The angles are different.
So it takes time to get used to that.
And then the physicality of the game is night and day, night and day.
And so you gotta get stronger, you gotta get in the gym.
uh And so even for a guy that can shoot it,
You know, you could struggle shooting the ball at the college level early on just becauseeverything's happening so much faster.
(42:18):
You're just not used to getting your shot off with that type of speed.
So I've seen all of that.
I've seen a guy really struggle in the preseason where we didn't think he could play alick and two weeks in practice, he was our leading scorer for the year.
You know, so I've seen that.
And so the thing that you have to do as a coach is not judge too early.
(42:39):
But
early on it's gonna be, it's gonna take some time for those guys to get caught up forsure.
I don't know if I would, I don't know what I would say 3.5.
I don't know how, but I do think it's a, most guys don't play a big role into their junioryear.
That's a fact.
So we hear, we see the Cooper Flags.
(42:59):
We think everybody's Cooper Flag, but the average guy's not playing that much early on.
That's what people don't wanna hear.
Nobody wants to hear that, man.
Well, and the other part is it's a weird intersection with capitalism and basketball andunwillingness to accept what they're actually good at because they just want to shoot the
(43:21):
ball.
Like, you know, I've said to so many young people, hey, you don't have this decisionmaking part down, but you can box out.
So if you just buy into that and you just go get maybe a hustle 10, like, can you get twostick backs and score one in transition and then just play unbelievable defense and
rebound for us?
but they always want more.
(43:41):
And it goes back to what you said earlier about that patience component.
If you pack your patience, the biggest key of why I share this is understand that we'rerecruiting you as an incomplete project and we're going to teach you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, because I think the way you talk to a kid, I think you have to be careful, it goesback to the recruiting process too, I think you have to be careful the way you're talking
(44:05):
to a kid.
That they have to understand that, okay, this is what I see, but you gotta come earn it.
And if you're not able to do these things, then, so I always say that to them, like, oh,if you can't get over your guard and you can't get through a ball screen, you can't get
through screens, you can't stay in front of a guy.
You're not ready to make decisions.
You're not able to be ready to go every day and be consistent contributor.
(44:31):
You're probably not going to play much early on.
You know, do I think you can do it?
Yeah, but you still have to come do it.
And so a lot of people don't, they don't want to hear that part.
They just want to hear what they want to hear.
And it is, it's a process, man.
But the last point I would say that you said, it's like, it's okay to go play a role earlyon.
(44:51):
Like you want to get on the floor, the first thing you want to do is get on the floor.
Right?
So these are things that you can do to get on the floor.
Get on the floor first before you become the star.
You know?
out solid defense good vision yep
loose ball, be the first in the gym to come work on your game before practice, be the lastguy to leave, do all the hustle things.
(45:16):
When the coaches talk about these are the guys that are playing the hardest, be one ofthose guys, be the most vocal guy.
There's a million ways to get on the court.
We have to end there, not even because I could talk to you for another five hours, butwhat a great way to end a podcast just with that little mic drop.
Thank you.
Thank you so, so much for making the time coach very excited to track BU again and hopeyou enjoy.
(45:40):
I know not a lot of it, cause that's not how it works in our profession, but some downtimethis summer.
Hope you enjoy it.
Thanks, Jair.
I appreciate it was awesome being on, also reuniting after that conversation 10 years ago.
Thank you so much.
All right, Coach Jones, thank you so much again for making the time.
It's great to see you.
to see you my man, Long Island, love it.
Love it, love it.
You know out in Buffalo my wife and I are always craving a good slice so I'm we're that'sit's like a summer goal for us get back down there and have good pizza
bro I was all up in upstate New York I went to our swig so I know what it's like to beupstate New York my man
(00:26):
Yeah, well, you know, that's one of the other parts of the state where you, you know, onceyou're there, you got to have good people connections because you don't see the sun very
much.
That's why actually I look forward to asking you a little bit about us.
We go in a moment.
But first, I want to start.
um This is an opportunity, I think, for a lot of young people to learn about coaching atyour level, in addition to playing at your level, something that's really cool about you.
(00:52):
and in general, the basketball family that you're a part of is you're kind of a beacon oflongevity in the sport, which is harder and harder to have happen.
My impression of you has always been that you were very relationship oriented.
I would love to sort of learn how that was instilled in you, kind of what made you buyinto that.
Because you know what it's like with young coaches.
Like I've seen a lot of young coaches that that's not necessarily their currency, but theyalso burn out.
(01:16):
So could you talk me through how that started for you?
Yeah, think my mom, I remember my mom saying this to me when I was a young guy.
And she was like, I'm so proud of you because like, you know, I grew up in a neighborhoodin the seventies.
Everyone had large families, right?
It's the last way it was back then.
So everybody had large families.
(01:36):
So they were literally kids everywhere, everywhere.
And in my neighborhood in North Babylon, I was someone that was friends with all theyounger kids and would
you know, uh help them and like, you know, they, you know, I'd invite them to play sportswith us and I was, I'd hang out with them and my mom was just always like, that's so cool
(02:02):
that you are kind of big brother to the other kids in the neighborhood.
uh And then I just think I've had some really cool coaches and big brothers myself, guysin neighborhood that looked out after me.
You know, that's kind of the neighborhood we I grew up in where I think the older guyskind of looked out for the younger guys.
(02:27):
And so I was just someone that I think had a lot of different relationships across theboard.
And then I was someone when I went to school, the school was pretty, you know, it waspretty diverse.
And the fact that it was it was black and white and most of the black kids lived on oneside of the bridge and most of the white kids lived on the other side of the bridge.
(02:48):
And I think I was someone that just adapted very well.
I played sports, little league football with white kids.
And so I was just someone that was friends with everyone and didn't really think aboutcolor maybe as much as some other kids did at the same stage.
So I was just someone that was probably, uh know, someone that bridged the gap, I think attimes uh for people from different uh social backgrounds or even racial lines.
(03:18):
You know, that's kind of how I was always.
I don't know.
I won't say I was raised that way.
It was just something that I kind of fell into because I played sports and was someonethat just enjoyed people's company.
Was it important for you then, because I know you were a D3 athlete, was it important foryou then to kind of seek out being on a team environment where you felt that camaraderie?
(03:43):
Like was that a part of your decision?
Yeah, think I was really, yeah, I think when I went, I was like a lot of kids when Iplayed high school basketball at Half Hollow Hills West.
uh My best man and my wedding was my back court partner and I was his best man.
uh You know, we're making plans to hang out this summer.
(04:04):
uh And so I always had those type of relationships.
And I was really tight with the other guys on the team.
And so that was something that was important for sure when I went up to Oswego, fillingthat camaraderie uh with the older guys.
I remember that.
And then a big part of it was the coach.
(04:24):
uh And so when I'm still really close with today, the assistant was the one that did thebulk of the work.
But I remember going up to school and one night I hung out with the guys.
Another night I went to the coach's house for a meal.
and hung out with his family.
had two smaller kids that were young and I went up to their room upstairs and played withthe younger boy and hung out.
(04:48):
And I remember kind of like that feeling pretty cool, uh just that like that homeenvironment.
And I just hit it off with him.
So I think the coach played a big part in that as well.
And something I've learned, just in kind of learning more about you is you still have agood relationship with that coach now.
Now, oh, please go ahead.
(05:08):
I'd love to hear more about it.
were, we played Colgate every year up there and you know, he comes to the games and comesto the locker room before the game and there are times that he stayed in the hotel with us
and you know, we kind of try to make a point to see him, you know, every year.
We talk on the phone.
I'm still really close with his wife.
She was like a second mom to me.
(05:29):
I was like the older son in his family.
I really, I was really close.
spent...
summers at his house.
So school would end in May, I would go for a month and live with my coach, upstate NewYork.
Yeah, he still bust my chops that I didn't finish painting the barn.
So he had this barn and it was the listen, man, you know, it got a little shaky, you know,trying to get to the top of that thing.
(05:55):
You know, I was on a ladder, the ladder wasn't overly stable.
So those those last three levels did not get did not get painted, man.
So he still bust my chops about not finishing the barn.
But we had some good times, man, good times.
Self preservation is important.
You're a talented athlete.
We got to keep you healthy.
This is interesting to me though, because I can identify, you know, when I was, this wouldbe 23, was the first time I met Reggie Witherspoon out in Buffalo and Jim Quitchoff.
(06:29):
And the way that Reggie and Coach Quitch, Coach Heck and Turner would coach and the waythey talked about leadership,
That was a very important thing for me in kind of getting my gears turning.
Was there a part of you at that age that was already like, I think I would want to getinto coaching after college because I know you coached at the high school level before you
(06:50):
started the college level.
Like were there, were there things you were taking away from that experience at that time?
Or are you just more like in the moment and just enjoying it?
Well, the thing that happened for me is that my best friend's older brother was a guy bythe name of Robbie Weingard, who actually ironically played at Hofstra back in the
mid-80s.
(07:11):
And he actually led Division I in 19, I want to say, 85 in assists, which is crazy, right?
Like crazy.
His senior year, led the whole country in assists, averaged like 9.9 assists a game.
Phenomenal floor leader.
So he was like my big brother mentor.
uh He used to kick my butt, man.
(07:31):
I still have not beaten that guy in a one-on-one game.
uh And so I was gonna be a freshman in college and he's, you know, I had trained under hima lot and he said, hey man, you should come and work this camp called Kutcher Sports
Academy.
He was in the Catskill Mountains in Monticello, New York.
He's like, there's a league at night.
(07:52):
And there's some really good players there.
You know, it's a chance for you to train during the summer when you have free time andthen Compete against some division one guys.
So I'm like, oh man, that sounds great.
So that's what I did so I was up during the day so I had a bunk of eight to ten kids andThen I taught basketball for three hours a day two in the morning one in the afternoon and
(08:17):
Then you coach the team at night for for league
And then there was time to play during pickup during the lunch break that we would have,like a three hour break, we'd always play pickup then, and then we had leagues at night.
And then you could always find time to train at night and the whole bit.
So it was awesome.
And I did that for five summers.
(08:39):
But I remember the first time I had my first team and my first practice, and we were inlayup, we were in a layup line, I put them in a layup line to start practice to warm them
up.
And I remember,
the feeling that I had in that moment.
And it was just different than anything else I've ever felt.
I could still feel that.
(08:59):
And it just was one of those things was like, that was a big moment for me.
And you could feel it.
I felt like, my God, this is so much fun.
I'm loving this.
You know, I'm 17 years old, the kids are 13, and they look up to you, but also closeenough where you have a relationship with them that's a little different because you're
(09:20):
close in age.
And man, was, yeah, exactly, exactly.
It was a lot of fun, man.
And I think that was my wow moment.
Didn't know that I would pursue coaching, but I remember that feeling.
I do, I do.
So I certainly don't want to speak for you, but I'm hearing a couple things that reallystand out to me and I want to put them together and you tell me if this math adds up.
(09:47):
It seems like the big brother thing is important to you.
Seems like relationships are really important to you.
Would you say flashing forward now, you know, in the prime of your career, are these stillthings that are part of the ethos of BU basketball?
that you're going to recruit building relationships that you want to have young mentors onyour team?
(10:10):
Are these qualities that you're trying to instill in young men?
Yeah, that's a great, great question, Jared, you know, and so, you know, I, now that I'vebeen in this for a long time, you reflect a lot, right?
So you do some reflecting like, my God, I can't believe this has happened for me.
Can't believe this has happened for so long.
and you're always talking with young people cause you're recruiting them and then you'recoaching them and you're trying to give them advice and you're giving them maybe some
(10:39):
experiences that can, they can
they can learn from that you went through.
And so you're always in this space that you're talking about.
So you're always talking about those things.
And so for me, I always wanted just to create an environment around my program uh that wasone that the guys felt like, hey man, coach loves me.
(11:02):
No matter what I do, that dude loves me.
He's got my back.
He cares about me.
uh
more than just someone that's gonna make a shout out, make a play.
We're talking about what I could do as a leader of this program that can impact the restof their lives, not just in the moment, right?
And so what are we talking about, right?
(11:22):
So I just talked to a young man, got us, our team GPA was a 3.45, so we have a lot ofsmart students, way smarter than I was, but this kid got a C plus in the course.
And I heard from my assistant that part of the reason why he got a C plus was because hejust didn't follow directions the right way.
And he has a history of this, right?
(11:42):
This kid has a history of this.
So my thing, when I got him on the phone just now, it was like, okay, my man, like, let'sjust talk, let's just talk man to man.
And let's understand that the way that you're attacking these courses at times, this isgoing to follow you, man.
Right?
(12:03):
So if you're not going to be someone that's going to be in tune with what's going on, askquestions, uh you're going to miss out on some things later on in life.
Like these are life lessons.
This is not about you getting a C plus because we tell our guys A's and B's, no C's.
And so my thing was to try to hold him accountable for our standard, but also help himunderstand like these are things.
(12:30):
that if you can grasp with all the talents that you have, now you're gonna be able to goto another level.
If you don't, it's gonna hold you back.
And so the things that held you back was that you are not focused enough and you miss outon information and now you don't know when you're supposed to hand something in.
That's something that should have happened in middle school, not in your junior year ofcollege, right?
(12:56):
So let's assess this, let's tackle this.
let's not run away from it, let's not make excuses about it.
So that's what you're trying to do as a coach is make sure that you're holding these guysaccountable, not only for the things that are going on in court, but for the things that
are gonna impact their lives off the floor as well.
And I feel like that's kind of what I'm all about.
My background in counseling, who I am, those are things that I'm about, that I'm gonna beinvested totally in a total kid, not just one element of
(13:26):
you just hit on something that's really important to me that I actually have some data on.
think young people and their parents as they navigate the recruiting process hugelymisunderstand this part and I'll try to explain it concisely.
What I would kind of describe to you is that they put head coaches on this giganticpedestal where they are like these my way or the highway people and I think the average
(13:48):
person that will hear this interview is going to think this kid fell below your standard.
So you threw him off the team immediately.
Where, you know what I mean?
So, what the reality actually looks like is like, no, we are a conditional family.
I'm bringing somebody in to be a part of my family.
And when I'm actually vetting people as I recruit, I'm actually just vetting people who Ithink when you do make mistakes, I think you will be receptive to my teaching and the
(14:15):
bounce back will be within our channel.
Would you agree with that assessment?
Absolutely.
And so that's kind of what we do, right?
Like that's exactly what we do.
We had some Zoom calls.
we're now, you know, the one great thing about COVID is that you can make use of the Zoomnow, right?
So we have Zoom calls.
um And I'm doing the same thing.
(14:37):
I'm vetting.
I'm trying to get a feel for what the parents are like, right?
I'm trying to see, okay, is this someone that, is the kid someone that I want part of myprogram as important?
Are the parents...
are going to be, they're going be part of the program too.
Do I want them a part of my family?
Do they really understand?
And then our, you know, our, the way we do things, our values align.
(15:00):
And if that happens, okay, that's a good mix.
that doesn't align, it might not be a great fit.
And so that's the most important thing is for families to understand that, as you said,you know, this is going to be an education.
This is going to be a process.
And sometimes the families and the kid doesn't, they don't understand it's a process tobecome a great player.
(15:25):
It's a process.
my God, they don't want to hear it.
And so what you have to do as you're telling the kid how great they are and how much theycan make an impact, you have to be reasonable with what you're saying.
So now when there is a struggle, they understand you've already had that conversationthat, my man, we feel like you could be a great player, but there are going to be steps to
(15:46):
this.
this is gonna take some time before these things happen.
Sometimes you could tell a family that and they all hear he's gonna be great.
They don't hear all the stuff that you're talking about in terms of the steps that theytake.
But certainly the point that you just made that if you go play for a guy that is a qualityperson, hopefully they're reacting the way you did in terms of like, okay, you didn't do
(16:13):
this great, I'm not happy about it, but.
We're just gonna help you through this.
We care about you and we're gonna always have your back.
very excited to talk a little bit more about that family component in a moment.
But first, you mentioned COVID.
um I mean, there isn't a sector of anything, especially given your background of mentalhealth work.
(16:39):
There isn't a sector of anything that wasn't affected by the pandemic shutdown.
But when I talk to a lot of my friends from college, my friends from graduate school thatdo not work in basketball, what I
try to explain to them is I want you to imagine that a lot of the parameters of how we dowhat we do were one way before the COVID shutdown.
(17:03):
And then we all came back and they were completely different.
The red shirting for transfers wasn't a thing anymore.
NIL has started to take off.
There isn't regulations in place yet.
I'm imagining, you know, and before I got sick, we were navigating this at Kinesia.
So I'm imagining you were navigating at BU.
A lot of the ways you recruit and build those relationships is kind of in flux right now.
(17:28):
How are you navigating it, especially as someone, you know, as longly tenured as you havebeen?
Yeah, I think um you said this.
So I'm, am much more of a relationship person, right?
So I'm not a transactional type of guy.
And so, you know, early in conversation, you kind of know, okay, they're coming from adifferent, you know, they're looking at this thing differently than I'm looking at this
(17:56):
thing.
This probably won't be a good match.
So we're just kind of like going through the process of the recruiting part of this.
trying to figure out who matches up with our values.
We talk about selflessness, accountability, toughness.
Do they match up with that?
Are they looking for a quick buck or do they want to get a great experience for their kid?
(18:19):
And so for me, we work hard at trying to provide our guys with internships in thesummertime and their field of study as they become juniors and seniors.
um We're really trying to set guys up to be
to be successful way after their time uh at BU ends.
(18:39):
And so that's kind of what we're all about.
And that's what we're selling.
That hasn't changed.
But there's going to be an IL component of what we're doing.
There's going to be some of that as time goes on.
We're not going to run away from that.
But still, at the bottom line, it's still going to be at the heart of what we're doingwill not change, at the heart of what we're talking about, who we are.
(19:01):
is not going to change.
And the thing that I talk to my staff about all the time is I pride myself on presentingmyself as I am, not something that I try to be to get you to come or get him to come.
I want to be true to who I am because that's what I'm preaching to my staff and to myplayers.
(19:22):
And there are going to be challenges now with how this is set up, but I got to stay trueto who I am.
and understand that I'm gonna have to adapt and change, but at the core of me, that's whoI'm gonna continue to be.
stars.
I love that response because that's how we elected to be on our staff as well.
(19:44):
Something that we've experienced, I'm curious if you've had this too, is it's easy whenyou're a teenager to maybe pick the wrong thing as you go through this process.
But then you go through the wrong thing and all of a sudden maybe you're thinking toyourself, you know, I've been at this for a year now and I think that Coach Jones actually
was right about this.
(20:06):
um I've talked to actually high school age kids and their parents.
I've referred to it as re-recruiting, where we have kids we've built great relationshipswith.
They go to a place, they realize it wasn't the right fit for them because that staff ormaybe that program weren't true for themselves.
And all of a sudden they're in the portal and they reach out to you.
Has that been an experience for you as well?
(20:27):
Yeah.
That's been an ex...
I'll tell you the other thing that has happened, is that I've had a lot of guys that haveplayed for me at, you know, at the different schools over the years I've done this.
Where when they're in school, you're like, hey, bro, you need to really hit the books.
You need to study.
You need to...
(20:47):
You know, and they're caught up in being a 20-year-old kid on campus.
Everybody loves you.
You're on TV.
uh
You know, they get caught up in the wrong things, right?
They're to make the league, all this stuff, right?
I've had so many of my former players, before I got to BU, before I got to, well, while Iwas at Columbia, would come back and were like, hey man, I remember that conversation.
(21:09):
You know, they're coming back from playing over in Europe and they have no clue whatthey're going to do.
And so we, you know, I tried to help a few guys.
Hopefully I was helpful.
pointing some guys in the right direction, getting them off their feet.
But it's a very scary thing, man, when basketball has been such a big part of everythingthat you do.
And then when that's gone, the only thing that you can think of, I want to coach now.
(21:32):
I want to stay around the game.
I want to work guys out.
they're not, you know, there's so many other talent.
have so many other talents.
And my job here is to kind of expose them to those people and those things outside ofbasketball.
Like I'm fighting with a kid right now.
I got a kid right now that's got a three nine in Questrom School of Business.
(21:53):
And he's just not been around really any big time people in finance, in business.
that's just, for some of us, we didn't grow up around them.
My dad was a blue collar guy.
All my relatives were blue collar people.
You know, my friends when I was at Hills West, their families were, you know, theirparents were people that went to college and.
(22:16):
and had high level jobs.
So I was exposed to that in that way, but no one in my immediate family had done thosethings.
So sometimes we're talking to first generation, second generation kids, they just haven'tbeen exposed to that.
And I'm battling with them right now about, bro, join a club, go to a meeting, stay forthat seminar.
(22:39):
Where's your resume?
Trying to help him understand because he's got so many gifts.
And I think there are times where
our players are not, well, not our players, but I think in general, we need to do a betterjob of helping these guys think about their lives outside of basketball.
So much is caught up now in making money.
(22:59):
No one's talking about the GPA.
No one's talking about the graduation rates anymore.
That used to be the big thing was all of the APR and the grade.
No one even talks about that anymore.
So I'm really appreciative that you said this because there's a couple of my clients, highschool kids and their parents that I work with right now that I'm going to basically send
(23:21):
a 40 second clip of what you just said to them and be like, see?
Because the problem I'm navigating now is I don't think if you're a recruit that you'renavigating this process correctly if you're not looking at a place where you can see
yourself being extremely successful and supported for a four year experience.
It's okay if
something goes wrong, you'll get supported and we'll help you fix it.
(23:45):
But this idea of, no, no, no, the modern time is like, I'll go here and maybe I'll have anopportunity to get a raise and I'll go to this other place and I'll get...
That ultimately all dries up.
And, you know, being a college athlete, I mean, my experience and I would love to hearyour take, being a college athlete will always help you start a conversation with a
(24:08):
professional, start a conversation
with an interview, but if that's all you got.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
Great point, great point.
No, you nailed it.
mean, we're just not, we're not helping our, we're not helping our young people right now.
We are not, we are not.
And I'm talking about all of us because no one is even, like I see social media all thetime about this guy transferring, this guy, but no one's even talking about, there's no
(24:35):
conversation.
Are these guys gonna graduate?
Like if you go to three different schools, can you graduate?
Like, are there gonna be enough credits that go through?
Like, how is this gonna work?
I'm really concerned about that part of it.
And then what you just said, okay, when my playing days are over, I went to threedifferent schools.
(24:58):
Most of these guys are gonna play over in Europe if they have a chance to play.
That's gonna be done in three years.
Then what?
Now what am I doing?
You know, and that NIL money you got, you know, could have been dried up a long time ago.
And so that's the thing that I think is most detrimental to what we're doing right now, isthat we're not holding our young people accountable.
(25:24):
And I think you can still hold them accountable and help them understand about thegraduation and these other things with NIL.
I don't think it's got to be one or the other.
I just think right now we are on the other side and not even talking about guysgraduating.
The exact quote I said to one of my closest friends in coaching on the phone yesterday is,right now, there is not an apparatus in place to protect the most competitive coaches in
(25:52):
our profession from themselves.
So I honestly really appreciate you bringing light to that because I'm privileged enoughto have this forum to have a great support network, but hearing it from somebody like you
makes my life a lot easier.
yeah, yeah, it's...
Yeah.
You said something interesting um about how we prioritize things in this process, what themessaging is, and I want to kind of move 360 now.
(26:20):
um The very first time that you and I spoke was about a decade ago, and you had a youngdaughter who was tearing up an overnight camp.
And I was her coach, and I was blown away by her potential.
And you know, she was young.
So a lot of my questioning at that time and you know, for my style, she was an eighthgrade.
(26:44):
I'm not going to be like, Sid Jones, the eighth grader.
I'm going to connect you with everyone in the world.
But I was I was definitely hyping her up.
I'm imagining when after you and I spoke that through her entire high school career, thisyoung lady had a lot of options without getting too far into it.
What I can share is she ended up at Bowdoin.
(27:06):
an amazing school with a rich history in women's basketball.
She was a two time All-American.
She was on some dominant team.
She had a great college experience that just ended, I believe.
Can you walk me through what it was maybe like to have some of those conversations withher because you're in this rare position where you're a parent of someone going through it
(27:27):
that could do a number of things based on her aptitude and her ability, but you also knowwhat you know.
Yeah, you know, so Sid, uh I said, and I do remember that conversation and talk with you.
I think I actually called you.
Yeah, because I want to know how she was doing and you know, she ended up going toNoble's.
So the woman that worked at the camp, I forgot her name, uh who's a great, great, was agreat mentor for Sid, worked at Noble's and she ended up, she ended up getting recruited
(28:00):
to Noble's from that camp.
uh
Ellen, Ellen Crawley.
Remember Ellen?
Yeah, yeah, Ellen's awesome.
And so, you know, Ellen coached her.
had great coaching there uh at Nobles.
Alice Gallagher was a great coach for her.
She played with uh Chrissy Ducharm, who was a uh great player uh at Nobles.
(28:24):
Maybe that's her mom, Chrissy.
But she played with, yeah, Caroline Ducharm, yeah.
Yeah.
yeah.
So Sid was like the Robin to Caroline, but they played on some dominant teams.
COVID hit and really Sid probably didn't have as much exposure because of that.
(28:47):
Sid didn't care about the level.
She just wanted to find her place and she loved the small town, know, uh of Bowdoin.
uh
loved it and end up choosing there uh and had a great experience there.
But as she was going through, I was, and my daughter will say this to you, you know, Iwould be pushing her and saying, all right, Sid, you are a fantastic athlete.
(29:17):
We need to develop your overall skill.
And you know, she didn't train as hard as probably I would have liked to have trained, butshe was very competitive and
probably showed up, she was one that would show up to practice every day and give youeverything she had.
And yeah, yeah.
And then when that was over, she was kind of like, all right, you know, I want to go andwatch an episode of Law and Order, you know?
(29:39):
uh And so she ended up having a great career, but probably could have developed into adivision one player, in my opinion, because of her athleticism and understanding.
uh She just needed to work on her skill.
But she ended up going to Bowdoin and they did a great job with her.
(30:00):
In her second year, she got a new coach and her and the new coach were tight and they,phenomenal relationship that they have.
And Sid just prospered, got better and better every year.
And that was the cool thing to watch is her development, man.
Like she was always good.
She got there at first year.
She was a very good player.
(30:20):
I think she was like the leading scorer on the team as a freshman.
And every year she...
She got better and better than by the end of it.
She was, she was lights out, man.
Yeah.
She was, she was really good.
It was fun to watch.
And, know, in the, in the championship game of her, of her last of her senior year, herteam was down by eight and a half and Sid had like, she had two points, two fouls and
(30:46):
three turnovers at halftime, you know, and then the second half, just like she alwaysdoes, man, she
took it to another level, she scored like 22 and a half, she had an N1 to take the leadwith 50 seconds to go.
It was something out of like a movie, man.
She made every big shot down the stretch and it was packed, the gym was packed and thewhole bit.
(31:08):
But what a great experience it was to kind of watch her develop and watch her kind of, Ithink, uh gain so much confidence in herself through that experience.
uh
You know, and then she worked with the Celtics.
Brad Stevens is a good friend, helped her get a job.
She interned with them.
(31:28):
She did a lot of the advanced stats challenge, you know, the whole challenge call.
She worked on a whole plan for that for two summers and had it.
Yeah.
So now she wants to coach.
Yeah.
Yeah.
so cool to hear.
And for anybody that's unfamiliar, the environment of Bowdoin is really cool because thegym sort of has this historic reputation.
(31:56):
They get a huge local community support.
Yeah.
wild, man.
It's so wild.
Really cool.
And, you know, she got to know a lot of the fans over the years and she would go out totheir house for dinner and, you know, in her little space, she's important.
She's important.
So it's been cool to kind of see.
(32:19):
Flipping it because I'm sure at this stage of your career, you're very familiar with whatsome of the trepidation is with parents and what concerns parents and recruits have.
Was there anything about going through that with her as a parent that maybe makes youthink about the recruiting process a little bit differently now?
Yeah, well, my son, my son, I probably had more, my son's gonna be a freshman at Penn nextyear and he plays.
(32:44):
And that was probably harder on me because you know everyone and you're trying not tooverdo it, right?
You're trying to let your friends know that he's out there.
You're trying to let them know that he'd have an interest, but you're also trying not tobe that helicopter parent.
Then you're watching the games.
(33:06):
And you're like, my God, I can't believe they're doing this or they're doing that.
He should be like, you're like every other parent feeling like you want your kid to shine.
And so the best thing you could do is shut up.
You know, I just shut up, man.
You know, even when he was young, even when both my kids were young, I would tell themboth, you do not have to do this because my whole life is basketball.
(33:30):
I drive my wife crazy, that poor woman.
So my whole life is basketball.
And so they were always around that.
They were always in the gym, coming to games, watching it on TV.
The guys were at the house.
They knew the players.
It was just such a big part of their lives.
And I never wanted them to do it because of me.
(33:53):
So when my son was going through high school, I allowed him to have control over his owndestiny, meaning that he got to be so I would.
He got into the car.
And my daughter got into the car.
I would never say one word.
I wouldn't say one word about the game.
If they want to talk about the game, sometimes my wife and them will be talking.
(34:14):
And then it would say, dad, what do you think?
You know, like, like I was not going to do that to my kids.
And so when I, my, my son would always ask me to work out.
I never said to him, let's go work out.
It was, he always dictated when we would go.
And so since he was like third grade, I would work him out.
(34:36):
and then when I went to his games as he got older and there were a lot of frustration, alot of, you know, a of tough, tough nights.
Like that's just the way athletics are.
And I would say, absolutely.
And I wouldn't say a word until he said something.
And then sometimes if I thought I could say something helpful, I would wait to the nexttime, like two days later, three days later.
(35:03):
we'd be in the gym or we'd be sitting on the couch.
And I would say, hey, you know, on that set, on that play, I thought you had this read oryou could have done that.
And so I was not over the top.
And then when he was going to try to pick a high school, he was leaving, he wanted toleave the public school, go to a private school.
That was all him.
And then through this recruiting process, picking Penn, it was all him, you know?
(35:26):
And so, you know, for me, that's kind of how I did it.
And I would tell any parent,
you're better off just shutting up and letting the coach coach.
Now the thing that I would do, I would call the coach and I would say, Hey, you need to,you need to tell him this or you need to, you know, like, or I would say, if I knew he was
frustrated, I would say, okay, I'm about to go work him out.
(35:46):
Tell me what you're seeing so I can help.
But I would never be like, you know, why'd you do this with my son?
He should be doing this.
It was never that it was almost like a collaboration of, of trying to help him.
And I would always say that to the coaches, like, I'm calling you so we can help him, notbecause I'm questioning you what you're doing.
(36:06):
Based on the flow of this conversation, I think you'll be comfortable with me sharing thisand I wanna share it because I think it will be very educational to parents listening.
um After you called me at that camp, I actually shared with a couple coaches and at thattime I was only five years into my coaching career, so I was still kind of green.
I remember in the moment being in disbelief at how inquisitive you were about how youcould help your daughter in the process when you were calling me.
(36:31):
And I don't mean that in a bad way, I mean it in more of,
I will never forget one of the things you specifically said to me, which is I would loveto continue helping my daughter grow.
Can you give me some insight into how she played so that if she asked me for more, I cangive her some of the feedback.
And now that I've had more experience in my mind, I'm like, wow, if more kids and familiesapproached it that way, this would be so much easier.
(36:59):
And I remember actually how hard of a time it was for me to say like, you're not going tolove this.
but she killed it.
Maybe we can build up her non-dominant hand a little bit.
She really liked going one way more than the other, but she did really good and she's gota good future.
those types of conversations really stand out to me.
And if you are a parent and you're listening to this, I can tell you, and I'm sure you'dagree, Coach, those conversations stick out to us as coaches when we're recruiting too.
(37:27):
When you get...
When you get the right set of parents in the room that are leaving it up to their kid andthe kid is trying to take the initiative, that can drive up their stock.
Yep.
Absolutely.
No, absolutely.
Listen, there is no question that parents can hurt the process.
(37:48):
There is no question that parents can impact how a staff is going to view the recruitmentof a kid.
And all you have to do is just let them talk.
Just let the parent talk.
And so when the parents are talking and you have opened any questions and you're, they'regoing to show what they're about.
(38:11):
And for me, I'm going to try to stay away from the parents that I know are going to, thatI know are going to be a pain in the butt, you know, and I, and I tell all the, I tell all
the parents straight up the first time we talked to them, do not send your son here.
If you want to call me and complain about his playing time or his role on the team, if youwant to have that, don't, this is not the right place.
(38:34):
And then,
The few times that has happened in the last like six to seven years, I go right down tothe team and I say to the guys, hey guys, I had a parent call.
Please tell your parents not to call here about basketball.
They can call about your mental health.
(38:55):
They can call about academics, but I'm not having any question.
I'm not having a conversation about basketball.
You guys can knock on the door.
You guys know me.
I'm open to conversation, man.
I talk to every one of you guys.
I text you guys.
I call you guys.
We go out to lunch.
At any time, you can ask me a question.
(39:15):
And then you can communicate that back to your parents.
But I'm not having that, because that's going to crush your development.
And em most of them listen, but I have a few that have their own feelings.
And they all have their own feelings about what's going on with their kid.
course.
one thing that they can't deny is my love for their kid.
(39:38):
They can't question that.
They can question how I'm playing on, what they're doing.
They can't question how much I love my guys, because that is something that is apparent tome.
This is so helpful that you just shared this, because now we can flip it.
And this is a really good place to end.
So this is going to be your last question.
I want to share a data point from my research with you.
(40:01):
And then I want you, I'm imagining you're going to agree with the data point, given howthis conversation is going.
But I'd loved your input afterwards.
So I asked 50 coaches, half of them were scholarship level, half of them werenon-scholarship.
Scale of one to 10.
prepared do you think the average high school kid you're recruiting actually is forcollege basketball?
(40:21):
Like how much do think they actually understand what's going on?
Average response I got was a 3.5 out of 10 and it didn't matter what level.
Everyone said 3.5 out of 10.
So parents will look at me and be like, that's not possible.
He plays AAU.
He works out with trainer.
And I'm like, it's super, super possible.
Tell me, tell me where those areas of limitations are and what these young kids can beworking on.
(40:45):
woo.
So first off, first off, the intensity.
Oh my God.
Like I go to a high school practice.
Most of the high school practice I'm cringing because, and that's the way my high schoolpractice was.
It's just not, it's much more laid back.
Oh my God.
It's very casual.
So the intensity level is going to go way up.
(41:07):
Right?
The next thing that I think guys should really struggle with is the speed of the game.
is that there are now nine other guys on the floor that are faster than you and strongerthan you.
And so the speed of the game is going to take some time for guys to get caught up withthat.
(41:30):
And then the next thing is the physicality of the game.
Right?
And let's go back to the speed of the The speed of the game also will be the IQ becausethings are happening so fast that guys have a hard time reacting early on.
to a close out, where the help defense is coming from.
Like just to make those types of reads, it takes time to get in those situations where thespeed and the guy pressuring you and the length and size of a guy is gonna be different.
(41:57):
The angles are different.
So it takes time to get used to that.
And then the physicality of the game is night and day, night and day.
And so you gotta get stronger, you gotta get in the gym.
uh And so even for a guy that can shoot it,
You know, you could struggle shooting the ball at the college level early on just becauseeverything's happening so much faster.
(42:18):
You're just not used to getting your shot off with that type of speed.
So I've seen all of that.
I've seen a guy really struggle in the preseason where we didn't think he could play alick and two weeks in practice, he was our leading scorer for the year.
You know, so I've seen that.
And so the thing that you have to do as a coach is not judge too early.
(42:39):
But
early on it's gonna be, it's gonna take some time for those guys to get caught up forsure.
I don't know if I would, I don't know what I would say 3.5.
I don't know how, but I do think it's a, most guys don't play a big role into their junioryear.
That's a fact.
So we hear, we see the Cooper Flags.
(42:59):
We think everybody's Cooper Flag, but the average guy's not playing that much early on.
That's what people don't wanna hear.
Nobody wants to hear that, man.
Well, and the other part is it's a weird intersection with capitalism and basketball andunwillingness to accept what they're actually good at because they just want to shoot the
(43:21):
ball.
Like, you know, I've said to so many young people, hey, you don't have this decisionmaking part down, but you can box out.
So if you just buy into that and you just go get maybe a hustle 10, like, can you get twostick backs and score one in transition and then just play unbelievable defense and
rebound for us?
but they always want more.
(43:41):
And it goes back to what you said earlier about that patience component.
If you pack your patience, the biggest key of why I share this is understand that we'rerecruiting you as an incomplete project and we're going to teach you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, because I think the way you talk to a kid, I think you have to be careful, it goesback to the recruiting process too, I think you have to be careful the way you're talking
(44:05):
to a kid.
That they have to understand that, okay, this is what I see, but you gotta come earn it.
And if you're not able to do these things, then, so I always say that to them, like, oh,if you can't get over your guard and you can't get through a ball screen, you can't get
through screens, you can't stay in front of a guy.
You're not ready to make decisions.
You're not able to be ready to go every day and be consistent contributor.
(44:31):
You're probably not going to play much early on.
You know, do I think you can do it?
Yeah, but you still have to come do it.
And so a lot of people don't, they don't want to hear that part.
They just want to hear what they want to hear.
And it is, it's a process, man.
But the last point I would say that you said, it's like, it's okay to go play a role earlyon.
(44:51):
Like you want to get on the floor, the first thing you want to do is get on the floor.
Right?
So these are things that you can do to get on the floor.
Get on the floor first before you become the star.
You know?
out solid defense good vision yep
loose ball, be the first in the gym to come work on your game before practice, be the lastguy to leave, do all the hustle things.
(45:16):
When the coaches talk about these are the guys that are playing the hardest, be one ofthose guys, be the most vocal guy.
There's a million ways to get on the court.
We have to end there, not even because I could talk to you for another five hours, butwhat a great way to end a podcast just with that little mic drop.
Thank you.
Thank you so, so much for making the time coach very excited to track BU again and hopeyou enjoy.
(45:40):
I know not a lot of it, cause that's not how it works in our profession, but some downtimethis summer.
Hope you enjoy it.
Thanks, Jair.
I appreciate it was awesome being on, also reuniting after that conversation 10 years ago.
Thank you so much.
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