Jared here, and it’s time for part two of our three part “how to get better’ series. I’m joined by Tony Watson and Rod Middleton of Pro Training Basketball. Rod and Tony both played DI ball at UB and both went on to be professional players in Europe. They’ve also been training young hoopers for more than a decade and are here to dive deep into what it really takes to play at the next level.
This episode is minute-for-minute the most informative basketball discussion I’ve ever been a part of. We break down the non-negotiable skills every high school athlete should be working on, what everyday workouts should include, and what “hard work” actually looks like. Most importantly, you’ll learn what most high school athletes get wrong about their training sessions, and how to fix it. High school athletes and parents are going to want to have a pen ready, because there’s a lot to take note of here.
The Pro Training guys also teach you exactly how to avoid the traps of social media basketball hype, focusing instead on consistent fundamentals and skills that will actually help you grow as a player. Regardless of the competitive level you are aiming for, you’re about to come away with tools that will help you elevate your game, set realistic goals, and stand out to college coaches.
This episode is packed with practical advice and real-world experience from two professionals who’ve been through it all. Interview with Tony and Rod begins at 17:15.
Follow the links below for way more information from Pro Training Basketball
Instagram and TikTok: @ProfectYourGame
Pro Training HQs: https://www.protrainingbb.com/
The Hooper’s Handbook: https://tinyurl.com/yr2pmeh4
The most incredible collection of workout drills you will find, literally anywhere: https://www.youtube.com/@profectyourgame
________________
Have a question that you’d like answered by me or a guest? Have an idea for an episode topic? Have no suggestions but just want to say hello? Email me at RecruitingGEAR@gmail.com
To obtain more information about my coaching services or to check out the book, visit www.nailtherecruitingprocess.com
Follow me on social media!
Instagram - @NailTheRecruitingProcess
X (Twitter) / TikTok - @JaredTheCoach
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
It's been a minute since I've seen Tony Watson and Rod Milton in person, but at a minimumI'm thrilled to see them virtually.
So good morning, fellas.
How we doing?
How we doing?
Well, how about you, so,
same.
excited to see you guys.
Yeah, doing good over here as well, man.
So your guys' mission, should you choose to accept it, because you have a lot of things incommon with your own personal experiences.
(00:24):
You worked really hard to get scholarships to Division I level.
You worked even harder to become professional basketball players.
You've given a lot back to the local community in terms of coaching and training.
So your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to guide young players and theirparents through what the work really looks like to grow.
Are we ready for that adventure?
(00:47):
Absolutely,
Okay, perfect.
So let's start just by giving our listeners an opportunity to get to know you guys alittle bit.
You both have, you know, lifelong relationships with the game of basketball.
Can you walk us through just one at a time a little bit of your own experience with thegame and why it was so important to, you know, develop others at this stage of your
career?
(01:12):
well, I guess we're going to take it all the way back to, to, you know, my, I my highschool days, you know, where it starts there.
it's funny, like looking back at it now, like I was good, but I don't like, I don't thinkI was as good as I thought I was back then, you know, obviously when you're in it, you
know, you think you're the best player.
And I had a lot of success early, like I always played up.
(01:34):
I mean, AU, I never played my age group.
I always played up.
When I was in high school, you know, I played on varsity, you know, all four yearsstarting as a freshman.
So, you know, in my head during that time period, you know, I, I obviously I thought I wasa lot better than, what I was, but you don't really understand that until you, you know,
(01:57):
kind of go through it.
And I like to think I was a hard worker.
mean, in high school, I was, you know, I was waking up 6 a workout before school.
You know, I would shower, go to class.
After school, I was working out, but you only like, you don't know what you don't know.
So I never had a trainer growing up, right?
My high school coach, he wasn't really in the gym like that.
(02:20):
He was more of like a X and O guy.
everything, and this was, there was no really like YouTube, obviously no Instagram, noneof that stuff.
So like the only way I could figure things out was to watch like NBA games and you, know,you, maybe you see a move and you're like, right, I'm going go home and I'm a practice at
her or something like that.
So.
You know, I always tell people that especially like now, I think kids nowadays have a hugeadvantage just from the growth standpoint because they're able to learn from people who
(02:52):
have gone through it and, you know, can kind of teach them, you know, what to do, what notto do.
I mean, in this game, you're gonna like, you're gonna pay one of two ways.
You're either gonna pay obviously with your money to learn from someone else, or you'repay with your time.
And if you pay with your time, it's typically going to take you longer to learn a skill.
Right.
So, you know, as I got through my high school career, you know, my college career, youknow, I'll probably backtrack to get into that, but, you know, get into the training.
(03:21):
The whole reason why I kind of got into training was to help speed up that learning curvefor kids, because I knew how long it took me to learn what I, to what I know now.
And I always say like, if I had a trainer and someone like who could guide me.
along the steps, I feel like I would have made it a lot farther.
And I made it far, like Division I scholarship, played at University of Buffalo, playedoverseas for four years, played in some good leagues, know, top division, France, second
(03:49):
division, France, England, know, second division, Germany.
But I learned a lot of that trial and error, right?
Just figuring out going through the mistakes and stuff like that.
the whole reason for me, you know, getting in, like I said before, get into this was just
To help the kids out, help them avoid some of those pitfalls and things that I didn't knowand just kind of teach them.
(04:12):
Like nothing is guaranteed, but without hard work and dedication, like you won't evenstand a chance.
And I think that's one thing that I had growing up is I had, you know, the dedication.
I had the hard work.
Like my parents didn't have to push me like, right, man, you got to get up.
You got to get in the gym.
Hey, did you work out today?
Like my parents, they're like, if this is what you want to do.
(04:35):
like we'll support you, but this is your journey, you know, type of thing.
So I was, I was fortunate enough to just be locked in, you know, kind of at an early ageand then carries over to even what I do now.
Like I'm still getting up in the morning.
Like I just worked out before we got on this, on this call today, you know, so it's thehabits that you create early on follow you, you know, through the rest of your life, as
(04:57):
long as you stay consistent.
So that's kind of why I got, I got into the training and the coaching.
I'll tell you what, I'm really happy that you mentioned that habit stuff and being lockedin, because we're definitely going to circle back and we'll certainly circle back more to
your story collegiately too.
So I appreciate you sharing that.
What about you T2?
Yeah, so I'll keep it brief.
(05:18):
A lot of similarities that Rod and I have grew up a few years after Rod did, but thejourneys are similar.
Didn't have a trainer growing up.
The one benefit that I did have was my father was my basketball coach literally from youthall the way through high school.
He's still a high school coach today in South Florida.
But growing up, I was a gym rat.
I mean, we used to play all day every day.
(05:42):
we weren't at the gym, we were at the park.
If we weren't at the park, we were in the gym somewhere.
Boys and Girls Club, Recreation,
We were, we literally, me and my boys would pick each other up and we would just go to thenext gym.
If there was another five guys there, we'd play them.
If there wasn't, we'd try to find another gym.
So we just stayed in the gym.
We were always playing.
We all had a great feel for the game.
(06:03):
Again, at that time, like a lot of skill based training wasn't the regiment.
It was more so let's get up and down.
Let's play five on five.
Let's play three on three.
If we only got six, if we only got two people, we're playing one on one and we're goingafter it.
So
lot of the skills that we built came from just competing, just going against each other,pushing each other to get better.
(06:27):
And then luckily I also had a father who was a basketball coach too, that gave me theaccess, right?
To not only basketball from a school standpoint, but we were able to get me on some of thebest travel teams at the time.
I played for Nike Team Florida before I went to college, Peach Jam, all the stuff that thekids are into today, obviously,
(06:47):
have evolved immensely since then.
But that pretty much gave me the platform and the runway to become a division one athlete,play professionally, and then also open a gym with Rob when we start the whole training
thing too.
So one thing that you both shared was, know, Tony, you talked about access and Rod, youtalked about habits.
(07:12):
And what I see a lot of right now, especially when I talk to young people is they have anidea of what they want to do, but they don't really know how to get there.
And having that access to a mentor is hugely, hugely important.
And Rod, as you shed on that in your response,
You hearing you talk about wanting to pay it forward because you didn't necessarily havethat access in your own experience.
(07:34):
So I want to kind of give our listeners a little bit of access to you guys right nowbecause you've mentored so many young people.
You have heard a lot of people over the course of your young careers already tell you thatthey are working really, really hard to get better.
And I know each of you have had to have some difficult conversations with some youngpeople to be like, eh, you know, maybe, maybe you are, but
(08:00):
To give you guys an opportunity to set the record straight to our listeners, as formerpros, and we all know the work ethic you have to have to be a pro, what does the work
really look like as you're trying to grow your game?
What would a day in the life be?
If a kid's really working hard to next level it, what would it look like in your eyesbased on your experience?
(08:22):
want me to it or you want to go first?
You want first, Jared?
Yeah.
So the biggest thing when you're growing up is you have obligations, obviously, right?
You don't have just free reign to just working out, staying in the gym, watching films, soon and so forth, right?
We got to go to school.
We got chores.
We got family events, all those good things.
But when it really comes down to it, there's...
(08:46):
some key things that I believe you have to work on.
And when I was, when I was at the gym, I actually wrote a full book on, you know, the 12habits that it takes to become a professional basketball player called the Hoopers
Handbook.
If anybody wants to look it up on Amazon.
Yeah, we do.
man.
sure, I'm giving you my word, in the intro I'm gonna plug it out of the picture.
There you go, done deal.
(09:07):
Done deal.
But pretty much what it comes down to is as you get older, as you start to progress, thereare certain things that this is the bare minimum to even consider the fact that you're on
pace.
So we're talking about strength and conditioning.
We're talking about making basketball jump shots in a day.
We're talking about working on your weaknesses.
(09:28):
We're talking about sharpening your strengths.
If you're not going through that progression every day and it's not outlined, and if it'snot a regiment that you're sticking to, then you're not
doing what you're supposed to because you have to think about like this basketball is nowa global sport so if you're not putting in two hours a day right two and a half hours a
day and i'm not saying two hours straight because most people think they're going hardthey'll say they're going to the gym for four hours but you're you're stopping to scroll
(09:54):
on instagram you're checking your take time exactly yeah
Right.
exactly.
Like, so when you're in the gym, if anyone ever tells you that they went hard for fourhours, it's not a thing.
Like you can't you physically can't go hard for four hours.
So what I try to break down or what I try to tell kids when we have this conversation islike, all right, you have a little bit of time before school.
(10:16):
Can you put in 45 to 60 minutes of strength and conditioning?
Right after school, you got homework you got to do.
But after that, can you make two to three hundred shots a day?
Can you work on one of your weaknesses?
Can you work on one of your strengths?
So now you're kind of breaking your day up.
into a couple different workouts, but now you can kind of allow your body to recover.
And so you can actually go hard for the 45 to 60 minutes that you're in the gym or in theweight room or in the lab, wherever you're at.
(10:42):
actually putting in hard work.
It's really hard to kind of say, you know, I've worked hard today, but you can kind of putit in a sense.
Like if I'm a track runner, if I'm a sprinter and I run a hundred yards, if you're notgassed or you're not tired after that workout, OK, you didn't run as hard as you possibly
could.
That same thing.
really equate to basketball but the recipe of pushing yourself in the weight room, makingtwo to three hundred shots, giving yourself 15 minutes to work on ball handling, working
(11:09):
on a weakness for 20 to 30 minutes.
If you're doing those things consistently then you're at least on your way but that is thebare minimum for access to now I can play travel ball, now I can be a starter on my
varsity team, now I can start to get recruited.
But if you're not doing those things though you don't even have the ticket to get in.
love the way you said that.
(11:30):
What you got Rod?
Yeah, I mean, I agree with a lot of what Tony said.
And I think that the kids do work hard, but they have to understand that you have to worktowards the level you want to be at.
So let's say if I have an eighth grader, like, yeah, you might be working hard as aneighth grader for that eighth grade level.
(11:51):
But if each level you get to requires a different level of work.
And I don't think that's what a lot of times the kids, understand.
And it's like, if you're a high school kid, if you want to play in college, well, the workyou do in high school versus the work you do in college is totally different.
And same thing when you get up to college and pros.
(12:11):
And I remember my first year out, I got a job in France and the time difference, I don'tknow, it's like six, seven hours time difference.
And for me, I was like, yo, in order for me to kind of adjust and feel like I can get ahead start, like I used to work out.
at like one in the morning, two in the morning.
So that because I was living back home at the time and back home, we have 24 hour gymsback in Chicago.
(12:35):
So I used to work out like one or two in the morning to simulate it being, you know, 7am,8am over in France.
So it's like you always got to kind of think out the box when it comes to to working out.
And for most kids, and I'm gonna it again, right?
You don't know what you don't know.
So
(12:56):
You know, like Tony said, there are certain things that you must do, like non-negotiables, right?
Making jump shots.
I tell kids all the day, like, if you're not making minimum 300 jump shots a day, and ifyou want to play college, like, what are we talking about?
If you're not strength training, and if you want to play college basketball, like, whatare we talking about?
(13:18):
So, like, there's certain things that you have to do.
If you're hanging out with your boys every weekend and...
and you're missing opportunities to be in the gym.
Once again, like, what are we talking about?
I think in, and then we all go through it, right?
We, in the moment, we think we're working hard, but until you come across someone else,whether it's a player or a coach or, know, who, who done it and who's actually working,
(13:43):
it's like, you don't know.
I know at the high school I coach at, you know, I, I do a lot of six a workouts and youknow, the first couple of weeks, everyone's showing up now.
you know, optional.
So a lot of kids are like showing up and then we get the week like three, four and now youstart seeing kids and it's like, I'm tired.
(14:03):
I have homework.
I had this, I had that.
And it's like, in college ain't no one's going to care if you have homework, right?
No one's going to care what you've done the night before.
If the workout is at this time, if you're not there and ready to go, that can cost youplaying time.
And I don't think the kids realize that because Buffalo is a, it's a small area andthere's some talent, but it's not like a Florida, right?
(14:32):
Or a Chicago where it's like, man, there's a, there's a lot of talent.
And if you ain't doing everything you can, you will end up sitting on the bench and notgetting that playing time.
So I think kids just have to realize that, you know, when you have access to someone who'sbeen through it and can.
kind of guide you and show you the steps, like you have to take advantage of it.
(14:54):
And then, you know, just even in the workouts, are you doing stuff that's going totranslate over into an actual game?
You know, are you doing step back threes?
Are you doing transition threes?
I mean, I can't tell you how many kids come down and man, they can do a Euro, they can doall this stuff.
I'm like, yo, do a left hand layup, do a reverse left hand layup.
(15:16):
And like they struggle.
But they can give you all the, you know, all the fancy stuff, all that, but it's how manytimes are you really gonna do it in a basketball game?
Like, I don't even know how many step back threes I took in college.
Like, not that even professionally, like just me personally.
And like maybe if the shot clock's going down, but just to do that, unless you're anelite, elite player, like it ain't happening, man.
(15:42):
And that's what the kids I think need to understand.
yeah, these kids don't understand that like literally, unless you are Steph Curry or likeCaitlin Clark, these young kids don't understand that there are such things as like
benchable shots.
Like if you, if you bring the ball down the court and you go wild and the ball ricochetsoff the backboard into the other team's hands, there's like a 90 % chance you're coming
(16:05):
out of the game.
But then it's, coach, you hating on me, man.
I can make that shot.
Like, you don't believe in me.
It's like, dude, I believe in the stats.
Like, the stats show, like, you don't make that shot consistently.
And real quick, one thing before you get going.
I tell my players one thing.
(16:26):
I say, yo, if you want to shoot the ball 20 times a game, make 200 shots a day.
And I won't say nothing.
If you want to shoot the ball 30, make 300 shots a day.
and the amount of kids that don't do it but still complain about shooting.
I'm like, I told you exactly what you want to do if you want to shoot that many times agame.
(16:47):
We have workouts every day.
Make that many shots and I won't say nothing.
You got the green light.
I'm so happy you just said what you said because I am sure both of you as players, you'veseen teammates do this and as coaches, you've seen players do this where you try to give
someone objective information.
There is absolutely nothing personal.
(17:09):
If a kid tells you what their goal is and you look at that kid and you say right now,based on my experience, I do not think you are working hard enough to accomplish that goal
or hey, if you want this outcome, you got to do this, this and this and kids get, theytake that
really personal right now and I know how hard it is to deliver that message.
(17:31):
So based on what you just shared, I want to make sure our listeners understand this isobjective truth.
Like if you want to go Division 1 and you're not working hard enough to go Division 1 andyou end up not going Division 1, I think all three of us would agree that does not make
you a bad person.
Like that makes you you.
You have made your choices.
(17:52):
You've been given your information.
and you've made your choices, but you can't have hurt feelings when someone tells you ifyou want to do this, then you need to do X, Y, and Z because guess what?
Someone else is going to do it.
And I think that a lot of people, to your point Rod, especially in this community, theydon't realize that it's not just about them.
(18:12):
Like I had a former coach or a former podcast where a coach came on and basically said,like, you got to remember, we're not just looking at you and saying no.
We're comparing you to other people we're recruiting and we're saying yes to them.
Yep.
And with that in mind, you started to allude to, both of you started to allude to someskills that people should be practicing.
(18:33):
And I wanna give you an opportunity to hammer that home.
Right now, what are the biggest skills that you guys see lacking in high school athletesthat wanna play collegiately?
I know a lot of it, I'm gonna guess a lot of it stems around actual in -game decision-making, but I wanna give you an opportunity to speak your piece.
You it.
(18:54):
Well, I think it depends on position.
mean, there are some common things that might if you're a big or you're a guard.
and it's, and it's funny because I had, actually Tony played with a Mitch watt.
So I had him in here the other day and I had him talking to, you know, my, my big guy,he's a freshman.
likes six, five.
He got a chance to be good.
And, know, I had him in the workout so he can just kind of see what a pro looks likeworking out.
(19:20):
And at that level.
you know, Mitch did was intentional.
I mean, from setting screens to how he ducked in, there was never a situation where likehe just went through the motion.
And I think a lot of times kids, especially in workouts, they don't realize thateverything in that workout is important.
(19:43):
It's like they pick and choose what part of the workout they're gonna go hard, you know,and that's important when it's like the whole thing is important.
So like, if you're a big...
some non -negotiables like things you have to be able to do to even give yourself achance.
You got to be able to run the court, right?
If you're a big and if you're not running the court, you're cutting yourself out, right?
(20:06):
You have to be able to rebound.
You have to be able to defend your position, right?
And the pain.
And then you just got to be able to finish around the basket.
Like those are non -negotiable.
If you're big, you must do those things.
Now there's extra.
Right.
Being able to put the ball on the floor, being able to shoot the three.
(20:27):
also non -negotiable setting screens.
Right.
You got to able to do that.
The non -negotiables are going to be the things that
That's automatic.
Like if you can't do that, the extras don't matter.
Like, like I said, for the, for the extra for the bigs, like shooting the three, puttingthe ball down on the floor, being able to switch off and guard a one or two, you know, on
(20:50):
ball screen and stuff like that.
If you're a guard, you know, I think some non -negotiables now the way the game is one,you do have to be able to shoot the three and at a high level, the amount of kids that I
see like, yo, I scored 25 points, like, yo, you took 25 shots.
Like that's not efficient.
So you got to be able to shoot the three.
You know, I think you obviously got to be able to handle the ball, you know, withpressure, you have to be able to create for yourself and others, you know, get in the
(21:18):
lane, paint touches.
And I think as a guard, like you need, like you need a floater in your game.
you have to be able to get in the paint and, and get a floater.
And then obviously the, the non -negotiables for a guard, man, I always say if you want tosix feet,
And if you ain't picking up full court, man, they just gonna get a six, four, six, fivepoint guard who gonna meet the dude at half court.
(21:40):
So like, you gotta be able to pick up a half court, right?
You have to be able to, you know, get up and down.
No one wants a point guard who's, who, you know, walking it up or no one want wings whoain't gonna sprint the sprint corner to corner.
You gotta be able to do that.
So it's like a couple of things like the work is the work.
You can't, you can't bypass that.
You can't get around it or anything like that.
(22:03):
And
You know, most kids, I think, don't understand that it's almost like they think they'rethe exception, right?
You see, like you said, you see a Steph Curry and it's like, well, Steph Curry wasexception.
Or you see guys who maybe didn't have that big of a high school career, like a, like aDame or CJ McCollum.
(22:23):
And it's like, well, they were the exception.
So then kids in turn think, well, if they did it and if they were the exception, thenmaybe I'm the exception too.
And it's like,
I get it, but the chances like aren't that high and they did the little things.
And, I kind of wish that people highlighted like their backstory a little bit more becausewhat we're seeing is a finished product, right?
(22:48):
We're not seeing the long hours and long days in the gym working on the fundamentals.
mean, there was a summer where Steph Curry and shoot outside the paint, you know, tryingto refine his jump shot, but those are the things kids don't really understand.
And no, so if they can learn to just do the little things, because at the next level, ifyou're the main guy in high school, a coach is not recruiting you to come in and be the
(23:17):
main guy in college.
He's recruiting you to come and play a role.
So now you might turn into the man, right?
But if you can't play a role, man, you're going to have a hard time adjusting.
I think that's why we see so many kids transferring.
because they're used to being the man and they don't understand that there's a role I gotto play.
(23:37):
And sometimes I just have to wait my turn.
Like I had to wait four years at UB.
It wasn't in my senior year where the ball was in my hand and I was able to shoot whatevershot I wanted.
You know, I had to put in my time and just keep my head down and just keep working.
So, you know, I think kids just need to understand that it's a process and the littlethings matter.
And if you can get really good at doing the little things from
(24:01):
setting screens, running the court, finishing, making the open path.
I say it all the time, passing's a skill.
People just don't work on that.
Playing defense, man, I think you give yourself a heck of a chance to get minutes and bein a rotation consistently.
Tony, Rod just answered that super thoroughly.
So I want to kind of change it up a little bit and give you some a little bit differentbecause Rod just crushed that and you don't know this yet, Rod, but there's like five
(24:27):
social media clips coming out of what you just shared.
but so for you, Tony, I want to look at it a little bit on the other side because you comefrom a coaching family, you have your own coaching experience and Rod really spoke to the
execution part.
But I can also tell you as someone that's been recruiting.
for 14 of the last 15 years that I had been blown away by how much better people havegotten in terms of their athleticism and overall ability, while at the same time getting
(24:59):
much worse at their basketball decision -making.
So from your perspective, as someone who handled the ball a lot in most aspects of theircareer, college and pro, what are the decision -making components that are missing right
now?
that kids are working on that maybe like you were required to have in high school that arenot as important right now at the high school level.
But then as soon as they get to college, it really matters.
(25:22):
What do you want to see those kids working on?
Yeah.
we're, so I'll take a quick step back to, answer this question.
We're in an, we're in an era where the individual skill set is highlighted almost morethan the team aspects, especially in the, in the, in the youth sports and, and, and even
high school.
and I, I, what I mean by that is when it comes to training, when it comes to working out,a lot of guys are working on their bag, right?
(25:49):
They're working on how can I create a shot for myself, but to
go along with a little bit what Rod said when he talked about Steph Curry, like, yes, whenwe turn on ESPN the next day or when we scroll through TikTok, we're going to see the two
step backs that he hit that were big shots in the fourth quarter.
And that were point 33 and 36 for him.
What they're not going to see is in the first quarter when he ran the court and he did abackdoor layup or when he was in the corner spotted up or where he came off a pin down
(26:16):
screen and it was just a normal catch and shoot jump shot.
Right.
Those are the things that I think we're lacking in the youth development when it comes to
the majority of our workouts, right?
So just to hit on that briefly, like you should be working on a ton of catching shoots.
How am I spacing out the floor?
How am I reading, reacting?
I should be doing those things in my workout.
(26:37):
If most of my workout comes down to me being on an island with a defender and I'm tryingto create space to get a shot off.
It's going to be tough when you transition to the next level.
So to go back to the question that you asked originally was a lot of the decision makingthings, like you said, are some of the things that are overlooked.
what happens when you're coming off of, if you're a guard, what happens when you come offa ball screen and the big man's guy hedges?
(27:02):
How are you reacting to that?
How are you reading your defender?
Is he going over the screen?
Is he going under the screen?
Are they trying to ice the screen, which means just basically force you away from thescreen?
How are you reacting to all these situations?
these are the situations you're going to be in a lot more than the shot clock being fourseconds and I got to get a bucket.
All right.
The other thing they have to work on more is what do we do when we get in the paint?
(27:23):
Because a lot of times yards are driving and you'll see it on every level from high schooland college, even in youth basketball.
When you touch the paint, you are doing really good things for your team.
How many paint touches are we getting?
How many times are we driving to the basket?
But then when you get there,
then what decision are you making?
Did you read the help side?
(27:44):
So now you have a spot up shooter.
Did the help side even come over?
Because if they don't, now you should be finishing out the basket.
Did you find where your guy who just picked and popped for you?
Do you know where his defender is?
And do know where he is?
So you can then decide if it's your turn to shoot or if it's your time to pass.
So the way I grew up personally kind of helped me develop that because all we did wasplay, right?
(28:04):
It wasn't a lot of skill based stuff.
It was just we're playing who's open, who's not, who's the hot hand, who are we trying tofeed?
Who do we need to get
open, who's running the court, who are we feeding, those are the kind of things that justdevelop naturally at least in my upbringing and just the transition to you know social
media, social media trainer, celebrity trainers, know TikTok trainer, all of those thingswe have to kind of get back to what is done more often and what decisions are made more
(28:32):
frequently as opposed to island work right, bag work right, I got this I got this guy me,mano, we mano like that stuff is the stuff that's highlighted the
next day, but the majority of the game is played five on five, finding the open man,running the court, reading, reacting.
Those are the things that kind of get underappreciated, at least from what we're seeing.
(28:55):
Do you guys have time for two more?
Yeah.
Yeah, go ahead.
Okay, so my immediate thought after what you two are sharing is, well, if you're a youngkid, where would you go to get this information?
And I think about social media and weirdly social media is both the best thing to happento basketball development and the absolute worst thing to happen to basketball development
(29:18):
at the exact same time.
And you you guys know this because Tony, I particularly shared this with you over theyears.
Anytime someone at the D3 level, while I was working down there, told me they wanted toget better at ball handling, I sent them a pro training workout on YouTube every single
time.
So like that was a great source of information and it deserves the following it has.
(29:40):
Then at the same time, you open up Instagram and I'm sure for two basketball purists likeyourselves, you see some of the dumbest things that you could possibly imagine.
But then, of course,
because the kids are young and they like flashy things, that's the stuff the kids want towork on.
So my question to you as people that are centered in skill development, which isoftentimes like a vilified thing, like coaches want to have this beef with skill
(30:08):
developers a lot of times.
What messages do you send to these kids to get them doing the right things?
And more importantly for this, what would you tell a young person to try to avoid?
Like when they see something flashy on the internet,
what would be the thing you want them to like steer away from and refocus to actually getbetter at basketball?
(30:29):
Yeah, I'll take this one first.
So this is definitely not a bash on other trainers, other coaches or anything like that.
So the I want to make sure I said that first before I go to what I'm about to say.
But essentially, I'm actually going to take it off the court just for a second.
Right.
When I'm sick.
When I have an illness, if I have something that's going on for a while, I go and see adoctor.
(30:52):
I go to see someone who's had the education.
I go to see someone who's had the experience.
I go to see someone who's seen it before and knows how to remedy the situation as quick aspossible.
When my car breaks down, and then I know there's some people who are self -mechanics, butI'm taking it to a shop.
I'm going to see a mechanic.
I'm going to see someone who can literally look at my car and be like, this is theproblem.
(31:13):
It's either this problem or this problem, and I know how to fix both of them.
Thank
So to bring it back to the court, the same thing or the same mindset should be applied.
I should be looking and talking to people who have done it before, who have theexperience, who have been in a position where they have to solve the same problem that I
have.
So now I can, I can expedient my learning curve by feeding off of their experience.
(31:37):
What you don't want to do, what you want to try to avoid.
And I'm not saying that there's no trainers out there who haven't played at a high levelthat you can't learn from, because there's definitely a few guys out there, but
The things you do want to try to avoid are the guys who have you dribbling more than threetimes to get a bucket.
The guys who are saying, you know, this is what's going to make you elite, right?
(31:58):
You don't need to be elite in a lot of categories.
If you are good at the basics, if you are elite fundamentalist, you're going to be anelite basketball player, period.
I mean, there's a time where Klay Thompson, I think, scored 67 points with 11 dribbles inthe entire game.
So there's a lot of things that you can do.
make you an efficient athlete where all the other stuff you can avoid.
(32:22):
All the additional step backs, euro steps, spin moves, while there are certain positionsthat call for it, there are certain times in the game that do call for something like
that, the other 85 to 95 percent of the time you are shot faking one dribble pull up, youare spacing out catch and shoot, you're running the floor when you're making a layup,
you're getting fouled from driving hard to the basket and making a few free throws.
(32:45):
There's going to be out of your
20 shots that you shoot, 10 to 15 of those are going to be basic one dribble pull -ups,floaters, running the court, making a layup, spotting up shooting a three, coming off of a
down screen or a ball screen and knocking down the shot.
Those are going to be the majority of your shots and those are things you should stronglywork on and not necessarily avoid completely everything else but it should just be a small
(33:10):
part of your regimen instead of the main piece of your workouts.
that.
Thank you for sharing that.
What you got Rod?
I mean, I think Tony pretty much hit it on the head with that.
In your workouts, I think there's a time and place for everything.
whether it's the two ball, dribbling, tennis balls, cones, all that stuff, I think thatpart can, or those types of drills can play a part in a workout, but it should be five, 10
(33:40):
minutes.
Maybe something at the beginning just to get you warmed up.
Maybe work on hand -eye coordination, something like that, right?
But once you actually get into like the heart of the workout, it needs to be centeredaround things that you're going to do in the game.
Just like Tony said, 90, 95 % of the time.
I know the workout that, that I do here, everything is based off of, you know, a lot ofcatching shoe, one, two dribble pull -ups.
(34:06):
So we're driving and kicking, we're re -spacing, relocating.
We're coming off screen, throwing back, hitting the corner.
Like we're working on game situations and we're repping that out.
So that way when they get in the game and they go through those same situations, they knowlike, as I'm driving, that opposite corner is gonna be open.
(34:26):
You know, if I'm coming off this screen, my big's gonna be rolling.
This is the type of pass I'm gonna get to my big.
Or as he's rolling, I know the guy in the corner is gonna help, so now I'm gonna throw itover top to the guy in the corner.
So like, those are the situations in our workout that we go through so it's more.
game -based and like situational as opposed to just, all right, we're gonna set up allthese cones, right?
(34:50):
We're gonna do all these ball handling drills, know, retreat, double step back between thelegs, behind the back, fade away, you know, type of stuff.
And it's, you might do that two, three seconds left on the shot clock.
You gotta get a shot off.
But if you really hammer home just the basic stuff.
(35:11):
I'm telling you, it's going to go a long way because reality of it, like Tony said, youdon't need to be elite.
You need to be consistent.
You need to, can you consistently make shots?
Can you consistently get in the paint?
Right?
Can you consistently take care of the ball?
If you can do those, can you consistently defend?
If you can do those things, you're going to play, right?
(35:34):
There's only a handful of guys that are elite.
And I think we need to stop training to, you know,
to be elite because I don't want like LeBron's elite, KD's elite, like Steph Kerr, likethose are elite guys.
So we need to train more on just being consistent as opposed to being elite.
(35:55):
And I know, you know, everyone now putting stuff on IG and that's not going to get theviews, right?
The things that are going to get the views.
or the crazy things and I get that.
you have to kind of, and sometimes even with what we do, to keep kids sometimes comingback, it's like, if you just do that stuff, sometimes that can be considered boring.
(36:19):
So what's gonna happen is even though the kids needs it, they're gonna end up sometimesmaybe going somewhere else and doing stuff that they don't need, but it's fun, it's
entertaining.
But fun and entertaining doesn't necessarily equate to being efficient, right?
Getting minutes.
So a lot of times kids are like, hey, I'm struggling shooting.
(36:41):
Well, I'm like, but what are you doing?
Well, I'm doing this and this.
You know, I'm doing all these shots off the dribble and all.
Well, what kind of shots are you getting in your game?
Catch and shoot, drips to the corner, lifts.
Are you working on those?
No.
Well, there's the gap.
You got to work on the type of shots you shoot at the game speed.
(37:02):
in your workouts and in practice that you're going to get in the game.
There's always going to be this gap in between the two.
Before we move on to our last question, just want to let the record state that we aretalking to two former professional athletes.
This was their job and they have both in their own way just shared with you that theirworkouts were basic and centered around their roles and developing consistency in their
(37:32):
roles to better serve their teams.
And that's what earned them more.
Just really important to throw that out there.
So my last question, and just so you guys know, I am asking this question to everyone onthe second half of the season, because at the end of the day, this is designed to be a
podcast about the recruiting process.
So this is my hypothetical.
(37:54):
Tony Watson and Rod Milton have magically traveled back in time.
They are 16 years old.
They're sophomores in high school, except they know everything that they know now, andit's the year 2024.
So you have access to all these new things.
man.
But you're 16 again.
What would the two of you do to kickstart your recruiting process right now?
(38:14):
If you like just decided, I wanna play college basketball, what would you do to kickstartyour process right now?
or broad answers, are we actually college prospects up to this point or am I just pickingup a basketball for the first time?
you as coach Jared Zeidman that you are able division one prospects and I believe you havehigh ceilings.
(38:35):
So good question and I've provided you the answer I think you need.
appreciate it.
All right.
Yeah, Rod, you got it first.
well, I think the first thing, like I said, I said it early in the podcast.
I'm going out and I'm trying to find, you know, our trainer or someone who has done whatI'm trying to do.
(38:57):
I think that's, that's the first thing.
And I always say, man, if I, if I had someone to guide me and, you know, help me, youknow, shorten that learning curve.
You know, I think I would have developed a lot sooner than what I did.
So I think that's the first thing.
And then once I find that person, you know, I'm taking their advice and I'm in the gym,you know, I'm working and my game was never flashy.
(39:28):
You know, I was a guy who I did all the little things and it's funny because my, to kindof get off topic, but my first year overseas in France.
coach brings me into the office.
weren't, we weren't doing that because we were losing a lot of games.
It's like beginning of December.
And he was like, you know, we, we need to make some changes.
(39:51):
And in my mind, I'm like, man, they're about to send me home, you know, first job I'mabout to get sent home.
But he was like, you know, management, they wanted to send you home.
He was like, but, you know, I see you every day in the gym before, before practice starts,you're in the gym after practice.
And he was like, I vouch for you.
He's like, I know your time's coming.
He was like, just keep doing what you're doing.
(40:11):
So I ended up avoiding getting sent home my first year, all because I was the first one inthe gym, last one to leave every day.
And the coach saw that.
And because of that, he was able to vouch for me to management when they wanted to makechanges and send people home.
(40:32):
So I ended up sticking around just because of that.
You know, going back to, know, if I was 16, just continue to be in the gym, you know, haveaccess to the gym, getting there early before school, working out.
I really didn't take into strength training until I got to prep school.
(40:53):
That's when I really understood the importance of it.
My first maybe four years of high school, man, I wanted nothing to do with the weightroom.
Right.
I just didn't know.
So I would definitely
what I know about you, that's crazy to hear out loud.
That's a crazy thing to hear out loud.
Like I was the kid when the football, cause I played basketball and football when thefootball team had lifting, I played basketball.
(41:18):
When the basketball team had lifting, I played football.
Like I always found a way to like get out the weight room.
Cause in my mind, I was like, yo, I just want to play.
I don't want to work out.
I don't want to do anything in the weight room.
I just want to like work out, on the court or be on the football field.
like.
Looking back, I wish my basketball, like the strength training side of it, I did that alot earlier.
(41:41):
I didn't start lifting until like 18, 19 maybe.
And it's crazy because my freshman year at UB, like I was the strongest kid on the team.
I mean, I came into UB, I was benching like 320 as a freshman.
Like I was, that's all I did in preschool was just lift.
So like, if I knew that in high school,
(42:03):
And just, you know, what type of shots to take, what to work on.
Man, I might not even be on this podcast right now.
I would probably be, I'll probably be finished.
think I probably would have made the league or playing overseas somewhere.
Like I would have, I would have still been playing if I had that type of vice.
(42:23):
So I think that's what I would done.
Just hit the weight room and then found someone who was knowledgeable, who can just guideme along and whatever they told me.
That's what I'm doing.
So key, key emphasis on finding a mentor, taking the mentors advice, and then focusing onyour growth.
What you got T2?
Yeah, so I'm gonna go back first.
(42:44):
I would buy the Hooper handbook, 12 habits that every basketball player needs.
There we go.
to God, as you say that there's going to be a picture of it.
We'll do like a picture and like a smiley face or something.
Yeah.
No, I'm slightly joking, but at the same time, if I'm making the decision at 16, I'mgetting organized.
And that's exactly what the book does.
It helps you get organized and make a schedule, all those things.
(43:07):
So I would I would make a promise to myself that this is what I'm to do.
And here's how I'm going to get from A to B.
And then I'm going to gather my team of people who's going to help me get from A to B.
You're not going to be able to do it alone.
You need coaches.
You need trainers.
You need parents.
You need to support staff.
or support system.
If you don't have parents, find somebody who's willing to help you on this journey.
(43:29):
If you don't have a good basketball coach, go find a good trainer that can help you get tothis journey.
Vice versa, if you don't have a trainer, find a good basketball coach that can help youthrough this journey.
So I'm gathering all the ammunition that I need to get me to the next level.
As well as working out relentlessly, working on my strengths, working on my weaknesses,getting stronger, getting faster, getting more explosive, I'm also searching for
(43:51):
opportunities to showcase myself.
I say that very hesitantly because there's an event every single weekend that claims thatthey're helping the kids with food.
You have to pick the right ones.
You have to do your research.
This is where those mentors, where you're supporting staff, where your team is going tohelp you make the right decisions on which events are worth going to, which events aren't
(44:12):
worth going to, and then also putting you in a position or on a platform to then showcasethe skills that you've developed up to that point.
And what I mean by that is, are you playing on a circuit?
Are you playing on
team?
Are you playing in front of coaches?
If you're playing on a travel team that no coaches are watching, you are not gettingrecruited, period.
No one's recruiting you.
(44:33):
So you have to make sure you're on a travel team who's playing in front of people who isthen looking at you to recruit.
All right?
And then on those teams that you're on, you have to make sure that you are a factor in thegame too.
It's great to play for, you know,
the EYBL team.
It's great to play in the Adidas Gauntlet, but if you're sitting on the bench for most ofthe game or if you're just running up and down most of the game, you're not doing anything
(45:00):
that's helping your position.
So make sure you have a good reality check and you put yourself on a team that's going toshowcase you.
You don't have to be a starter.
You don't have to be the best guy on the team.
You just have to be in a position where you're actually impacting the game.
Are you picking up full court so that they can see you can play defense against the otherteam's best player?
Are you in a position to make shots?
(45:21):
position to contribute in some way shape or form that allows the coaches who are watchingto then evaluate you and look at you and ask the one question that they ask about every
single player that they're recruiting.
Can this player help me win more games?
If you can't do that, you are not getting recruited by that school.
(45:42):
If they don't think you can help them win games, then they're going to find someone elsewho can then help them win games.
So you have to be in a position where you can impact the games that they're coming towatch.
And then you have to put yourself in a position where they look at you and say, hey, thisplayer will fit in this position on my program.
And now I want to see more of this player to make sure they are the right player that Iwant to recruit and hopefully offer a scholarship.
(46:07):
But working out relentlessly, finding the support staff that I need to support
to help me get from A to B and then putting myself in a position to showcase my skillswith the things that I would do at age 16 to get me to the next level.
describe the last 45 minutes.
let's hear it.
Let's hear it, Roddy.
me just, let me just, it's funny that Tony said, you know, no one was circuits in teams toplay on.
(46:33):
And when I was in high school, I had, there was two teams.
There was one team that was called Illinois Warriors and they was on the EYBO circuit,right?
The Nike gear and all that stuff.
And there was another team that was more of like a local, but they played in some.
They played in some good tournaments and the tournaments that they went to, you know, wasmaybe low major D1 tournament.
mean, coaches D2 and stuff like that.
(46:56):
So I had opportunity to choose which one.
And obviously I chose the EYBL one because it's, it's Nike, you know, I'm getting freeshoes.
I'm getting this and you know, we go to Peach Jam and you know, we're playing against someof these guys.
When I say like, I didn't get in, there were games like I literally, I did not play.
And I'm like, yo.
(47:18):
Like I'm pissed because I like I thought I was good and even in practice, like I competedwith those guys.
But like that team, they already had like their guys said, I mean, they had guys going toIowa, Michigan State, Illinois, Wisconsin, you know, and I was more of like a low, know,
low major D1.
(47:38):
And like looking back, I'm like, you know, I was just there to probably like fit the billfor some of the other players.
You know what saying?
So understanding, you know, your situation and are you actually going to be a part of theteam and playing or are you just on the team?
And I think sometimes kids fall in love with saying, I'm playing on EYBL team when reallyyou need to play on this other team that's going to go to maybe some of these, these other
(48:06):
tournaments, but you're going to get seen.
You're going to be able to play.
You're going to be in the rotation and it might not be the top of the top, but
you just got to get your foot in the door.
And I think that's where a lot of kids fall short is that they want to do that next, youknow, big flashy thing, they'll play for the elite team and do all that stuff because of
(48:29):
all the promises.
And it's like, no one's coming to watch y 'all if y in the back gym.
You know what mean?
No, like you got to be on a team where you can actually showcase your skill.
So, you know, I think Tony made a good point.
We're saying like you have to do your research.
And it does take a team for you to understand what type of player you are, what role, andbe honest with like what level do you see yourself at?
(48:57):
And just to say, yo, I'm a high major.
We all want to be high majors, but the reality of it is like, I was a low major player.
I went to UB and kind of ended up turning into that mid major.
And UB, kind of rose from.
being at the bottom of the Mac to now mid towards the top of the back.
So, you you just got to take advantage of the opportunities you've given and then make themost of them.
(49:24):
And then, you know, who knows what can happen from there.
Yeah, one thing to add to, Jerry, before we wrap things up, too, so I know we got to go.
One kind of thing that I've been telling a lot of players that I've worked with is forwhatever level you want to go to, Division 1, Division 2, Division 3, pick the school that
you can foresee yourself at.
(49:45):
From there, go to their roster and literally click the guys who you think are in theposition that you want.
From there, look at their bios.
Look exactly what they are, what they did in high school, what they do.
If your resume does not amount to their resume, chances are you're not going to thatschool.
For example, if I want to play at Kentucky, I'm just making up, I'm making up everythingand I'm a point guard like I am, like I was when I played.
(50:13):
I'm going to go to their roster.
I'm going to click and see who are all the point guards on their roster.
I'm going to look at some very specific details.
How tall are they?
How much do they weigh?
What they did in high school?
What were their stats like?
What accolades did they achieve?
Who did they play for in the coming up in high school?
All those things were going to then say, maybe I can compete at this level.
(50:38):
For me, I'm a 6 '1", I can shoot, I can make good decisions, but Kentucky's point guards,they're 6 '5", they're fast, they're athletic, they play McDonald's All -American, they
play EY, you know what I'm saying?
So they have a very good track record.
And I'm not saying the stats are gonna be apples and apples, but at the same time, there'sgoing to be a lot of indications that show you if this is where you're kind of a mountain
(51:01):
yourself.
And I'm not trying to discourage anybody, I'm just trying to say, let's look at this fromthe lens that the colleges are looking at, because they...
Kentucky as it makes sense right so in Kentucky you have to be 6 -5 to play point guardfor them because the other teams that they're gonna play Tennessee Florida Duke North
Carolina their point guards are gonna be 6 -5 in athletics so can you guard the other guyswho that team is gonna play against so those are the kind of things that kind of help then
(51:25):
I've and I've walked players down this path to say okay that's cool that you want thisdream all right so let's look at what you need to become in order for you to get to this
level
And that reality check has helped some players.
So now they kind of dial in where they should kind of, you know, focus themselves andthings like that.
Sometimes it discourages them, but at least they now know the truth so that they can thenprogress.
(51:48):
Now you're at the crossroad.
Do I continue down this path?
Do I change what I'm doing?
Or do I double down and make sure I get to where I'm actually trying to go?
But that's just another way for you to kind of see where you stack up and maybe how youcan potentially help in your recruiting efforts as well.
If I were to invent a stat, I guess I would call the stat valuable information per minute,like almost like you were breaking down the engine of the car.
(52:12):
This is like the Floyd Mayweather of valuable information per minute podcast.
There was no fat on this interview.
This was just, this was 12 rounds of really like pound for pound, fast moving, the mostinformation you'll ever get in a podcast.
This was incredible.
This is going to be super valuable for our listeners.
(52:32):
Thank you guys so much for coming on.
I can't wait to see you again in Buffalo.
We gotta catch up for a Bills game or something.
But thank you guys again for your time.
Love it.
Absolutely, Thanks for having us,
All right.
It's been a minute since I've seen Tony Watson and Rod Milton in person, but at a minimumI'm thrilled to see them virtually.
So good morning, fellas.
How we doing?
How we doing?
Well, how about you, so,
same.
excited to see you guys.
Yeah, doing good over here as well, man.
So your guys' mission, should you choose to accept it, because you have a lot of things incommon with your own personal experiences.
(00:24):
You worked really hard to get scholarships to Division I level.
You worked even harder to become professional basketball players.
You've given a lot back to the local community in terms of coaching and training.
So your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to guide young players and theirparents through what the work really looks like to grow.
Are we ready for that adventure?
(00:47):
Absolutely,
Okay, perfect.
So let's start just by giving our listeners an opportunity to get to know you guys alittle bit.
You both have, you know, lifelong relationships with the game of basketball.
Can you walk us through just one at a time a little bit of your own experience with thegame and why it was so important to, you know, develop others at this stage of your
career?
(01:12):
well, I guess we're going to take it all the way back to, to, you know, my, I my highschool days, you know, where it starts there.
it's funny, like looking back at it now, like I was good, but I don't like, I don't thinkI was as good as I thought I was back then, you know, obviously when you're in it, you
know, you think you're the best player.
And I had a lot of success early, like I always played up.
(01:34):
I mean, AU, I never played my age group.
I always played up.
When I was in high school, you know, I played on varsity, you know, all four yearsstarting as a freshman.
So, you know, in my head during that time period, you know, I, I obviously I thought I wasa lot better than, what I was, but you don't really understand that until you, you know,
(01:57):
kind of go through it.
And I like to think I was a hard worker.
mean, in high school, I was, you know, I was waking up 6 a workout before school.
You know, I would shower, go to class.
After school, I was working out, but you only like, you don't know what you don't know.
So I never had a trainer growing up, right?
My high school coach, he wasn't really in the gym like that.
(02:20):
He was more of like a X and O guy.
everything, and this was, there was no really like YouTube, obviously no Instagram, noneof that stuff.
So like the only way I could figure things out was to watch like NBA games and you, know,you, maybe you see a move and you're like, right, I'm going go home and I'm a practice at
her or something like that.
So.
You know, I always tell people that especially like now, I think kids nowadays have a hugeadvantage just from the growth standpoint because they're able to learn from people who
(02:52):
have gone through it and, you know, can kind of teach them, you know, what to do, what notto do.
I mean, in this game, you're gonna like, you're gonna pay one of two ways.
You're either gonna pay obviously with your money to learn from someone else, or you'repay with your time.
And if you pay with your time, it's typically going to take you longer to learn a skill.
Right.
So, you know, as I got through my high school career, you know, my college career, youknow, I'll probably backtrack to get into that, but, you know, get into the training.
(03:21):
The whole reason why I kind of got into training was to help speed up that learning curvefor kids, because I knew how long it took me to learn what I, to what I know now.
And I always say like, if I had a trainer and someone like who could guide me.
along the steps, I feel like I would have made it a lot farther.
And I made it far, like Division I scholarship, played at University of Buffalo, playedoverseas for four years, played in some good leagues, know, top division, France, second
(03:49):
division, France, England, know, second division, Germany.
But I learned a lot of that trial and error, right?
Just figuring out going through the mistakes and stuff like that.
the whole reason for me, you know, getting in, like I said before, get into this was just
To help the kids out, help them avoid some of those pitfalls and things that I didn't knowand just kind of teach them.
(04:12):
Like nothing is guaranteed, but without hard work and dedication, like you won't evenstand a chance.
And I think that's one thing that I had growing up is I had, you know, the dedication.
I had the hard work.
Like my parents didn't have to push me like, right, man, you got to get up.
You got to get in the gym.
Hey, did you work out today?
Like my parents, they're like, if this is what you want to do.
(04:35):
like we'll support you, but this is your journey, you know, type of thing.
So I was, I was fortunate enough to just be locked in, you know, kind of at an early ageand then carries over to even what I do now.
Like I'm still getting up in the morning.
Like I just worked out before we got on this, on this call today, you know, so it's thehabits that you create early on follow you, you know, through the rest of your life, as
(04:57):
long as you stay consistent.
So that's kind of why I got, I got into the training and the coaching.
I'll tell you what, I'm really happy that you mentioned that habit stuff and being lockedin, because we're definitely going to circle back and we'll certainly circle back more to
your story collegiately too.
So I appreciate you sharing that.
What about you T2?
Yeah, so I'll keep it brief.
(05:18):
A lot of similarities that Rod and I have grew up a few years after Rod did, but thejourneys are similar.
Didn't have a trainer growing up.
The one benefit that I did have was my father was my basketball coach literally from youthall the way through high school.
He's still a high school coach today in South Florida.
But growing up, I was a gym rat.
I mean, we used to play all day every day.
(05:42):
we weren't at the gym, we were at the park.
If we weren't at the park, we were in the gym somewhere.
Boys and Girls Club, Recreation,
We were, we literally, me and my boys would pick each other up and we would just go to thenext gym.
If there was another five guys there, we'd play them.
If there wasn't, we'd try to find another gym.
So we just stayed in the gym.
We were always playing.
We all had a great feel for the game.
(06:03):
Again, at that time, like a lot of skill based training wasn't the regiment.
It was more so let's get up and down.
Let's play five on five.
Let's play three on three.
If we only got six, if we only got two people, we're playing one on one and we're goingafter it.
So
lot of the skills that we built came from just competing, just going against each other,pushing each other to get better.
(06:27):
And then luckily I also had a father who was a basketball coach too, that gave me theaccess, right?
To not only basketball from a school standpoint, but we were able to get me on some of thebest travel teams at the time.
I played for Nike Team Florida before I went to college, Peach Jam, all the stuff that thekids are into today, obviously,
(06:47):
have evolved immensely since then.
But that pretty much gave me the platform and the runway to become a division one athlete,play professionally, and then also open a gym with Rob when we start the whole training
thing too.
So one thing that you both shared was, know, Tony, you talked about access and Rod, youtalked about habits.
(07:12):
And what I see a lot of right now, especially when I talk to young people is they have anidea of what they want to do, but they don't really know how to get there.
And having that access to a mentor is hugely, hugely important.
And Rod, as you shed on that in your response,
You hearing you talk about wanting to pay it forward because you didn't necessarily havethat access in your own experience.
(07:34):
So I want to kind of give our listeners a little bit of access to you guys right nowbecause you've mentored so many young people.
You have heard a lot of people over the course of your young careers already tell you thatthey are working really, really hard to get better.
And I know each of you have had to have some difficult conversations with some youngpeople to be like, eh, you know, maybe, maybe you are, but
(08:00):
To give you guys an opportunity to set the record straight to our listeners, as formerpros, and we all know the work ethic you have to have to be a pro, what does the work
really look like as you're trying to grow your game?
What would a day in the life be?
If a kid's really working hard to next level it, what would it look like in your eyesbased on your experience?
(08:22):
want me to it or you want to go first?
You want first, Jared?
Yeah.
So the biggest thing when you're growing up is you have obligations, obviously, right?
You don't have just free reign to just working out, staying in the gym, watching films, soon and so forth, right?
We got to go to school.
We got chores.
We got family events, all those good things.
But when it really comes down to it, there's...
(08:46):
some key things that I believe you have to work on.
And when I was, when I was at the gym, I actually wrote a full book on, you know, the 12habits that it takes to become a professional basketball player called the Hoopers
Handbook.
If anybody wants to look it up on Amazon.
Yeah, we do.
man.
sure, I'm giving you my word, in the intro I'm gonna plug it out of the picture.
There you go, done deal.
(09:07):
Done deal.
But pretty much what it comes down to is as you get older, as you start to progress, thereare certain things that this is the bare minimum to even consider the fact that you're on
pace.
So we're talking about strength and conditioning.
We're talking about making basketball jump shots in a day.
We're talking about working on your weaknesses.
(09:28):
We're talking about sharpening your strengths.
If you're not going through that progression every day and it's not outlined, and if it'snot a regiment that you're sticking to, then you're not
doing what you're supposed to because you have to think about like this basketball is nowa global sport so if you're not putting in two hours a day right two and a half hours a
day and i'm not saying two hours straight because most people think they're going hardthey'll say they're going to the gym for four hours but you're you're stopping to scroll
(09:54):
on instagram you're checking your take time exactly yeah
Right.
exactly.
Like, so when you're in the gym, if anyone ever tells you that they went hard for fourhours, it's not a thing.
Like you can't you physically can't go hard for four hours.
So what I try to break down or what I try to tell kids when we have this conversation islike, all right, you have a little bit of time before school.
(10:16):
Can you put in 45 to 60 minutes of strength and conditioning?
Right after school, you got homework you got to do.
But after that, can you make two to three hundred shots a day?
Can you work on one of your weaknesses?
Can you work on one of your strengths?
So now you're kind of breaking your day up.
into a couple different workouts, but now you can kind of allow your body to recover.
And so you can actually go hard for the 45 to 60 minutes that you're in the gym or in theweight room or in the lab, wherever you're at.
(10:42):
actually putting in hard work.
It's really hard to kind of say, you know, I've worked hard today, but you can kind of putit in a sense.
Like if I'm a track runner, if I'm a sprinter and I run a hundred yards, if you're notgassed or you're not tired after that workout, OK, you didn't run as hard as you possibly
could.
That same thing.
really equate to basketball but the recipe of pushing yourself in the weight room, makingtwo to three hundred shots, giving yourself 15 minutes to work on ball handling, working
(11:09):
on a weakness for 20 to 30 minutes.
If you're doing those things consistently then you're at least on your way but that is thebare minimum for access to now I can play travel ball, now I can be a starter on my
varsity team, now I can start to get recruited.
But if you're not doing those things though you don't even have the ticket to get in.
love the way you said that.
(11:30):
What you got Rod?
Yeah, I mean, I agree with a lot of what Tony said.
And I think that the kids do work hard, but they have to understand that you have to worktowards the level you want to be at.
So let's say if I have an eighth grader, like, yeah, you might be working hard as aneighth grader for that eighth grade level.
(11:51):
But if each level you get to requires a different level of work.
And I don't think that's what a lot of times the kids, understand.
And it's like, if you're a high school kid, if you want to play in college, well, the workyou do in high school versus the work you do in college is totally different.
And same thing when you get up to college and pros.
(12:11):
And I remember my first year out, I got a job in France and the time difference, I don'tknow, it's like six, seven hours time difference.
And for me, I was like, yo, in order for me to kind of adjust and feel like I can get ahead start, like I used to work out.
at like one in the morning, two in the morning.
So that because I was living back home at the time and back home, we have 24 hour gymsback in Chicago.
(12:35):
So I used to work out like one or two in the morning to simulate it being, you know, 7am,8am over in France.
So it's like you always got to kind of think out the box when it comes to to working out.
And for most kids, and I'm gonna it again, right?
You don't know what you don't know.
So
(12:56):
You know, like Tony said, there are certain things that you must do, like non-negotiables, right?
Making jump shots.
I tell kids all the day, like, if you're not making minimum 300 jump shots a day, and ifyou want to play college, like, what are we talking about?
If you're not strength training, and if you want to play college basketball, like, whatare we talking about?
(13:18):
So, like, there's certain things that you have to do.
If you're hanging out with your boys every weekend and...
and you're missing opportunities to be in the gym.
Once again, like, what are we talking about?
I think in, and then we all go through it, right?
We, in the moment, we think we're working hard, but until you come across someone else,whether it's a player or a coach or, know, who, who done it and who's actually working,
(13:43):
it's like, you don't know.
I know at the high school I coach at, you know, I, I do a lot of six a workouts and youknow, the first couple of weeks, everyone's showing up now.
you know, optional.
So a lot of kids are like showing up and then we get the week like three, four and now youstart seeing kids and it's like, I'm tired.
(14:03):
I have homework.
I had this, I had that.
And it's like, in college ain't no one's going to care if you have homework, right?
No one's going to care what you've done the night before.
If the workout is at this time, if you're not there and ready to go, that can cost youplaying time.
And I don't think the kids realize that because Buffalo is a, it's a small area andthere's some talent, but it's not like a Florida, right?
(14:32):
Or a Chicago where it's like, man, there's a, there's a lot of talent.
And if you ain't doing everything you can, you will end up sitting on the bench and notgetting that playing time.
So I think kids just have to realize that, you know, when you have access to someone who'sbeen through it and can.
kind of guide you and show you the steps, like you have to take advantage of it.
(14:54):
And then, you know, just even in the workouts, are you doing stuff that's going totranslate over into an actual game?
You know, are you doing step back threes?
Are you doing transition threes?
I mean, I can't tell you how many kids come down and man, they can do a Euro, they can doall this stuff.
I'm like, yo, do a left hand layup, do a reverse left hand layup.
(15:16):
And like they struggle.
But they can give you all the, you know, all the fancy stuff, all that, but it's how manytimes are you really gonna do it in a basketball game?
Like, I don't even know how many step back threes I took in college.
Like, not that even professionally, like just me personally.
And like maybe if the shot clock's going down, but just to do that, unless you're anelite, elite player, like it ain't happening, man.
(15:42):
And that's what the kids I think need to understand.
yeah, these kids don't understand that like literally, unless you are Steph Curry or likeCaitlin Clark, these young kids don't understand that there are such things as like
benchable shots.
Like if you, if you bring the ball down the court and you go wild and the ball ricochetsoff the backboard into the other team's hands, there's like a 90 % chance you're coming
(16:05):
out of the game.
But then it's, coach, you hating on me, man.
I can make that shot.
Like, you don't believe in me.
It's like, dude, I believe in the stats.
Like, the stats show, like, you don't make that shot consistently.
And real quick, one thing before you get going.
I tell my players one thing.
(16:26):
I say, yo, if you want to shoot the ball 20 times a game, make 200 shots a day.
And I won't say nothing.
If you want to shoot the ball 30, make 300 shots a day.
and the amount of kids that don't do it but still complain about shooting.
I'm like, I told you exactly what you want to do if you want to shoot that many times agame.
(16:47):
We have workouts every day.
Make that many shots and I won't say nothing.
You got the green light.
I'm so happy you just said what you said because I am sure both of you as players, you'veseen teammates do this and as coaches, you've seen players do this where you try to give
someone objective information.
There is absolutely nothing personal.
(17:09):
If a kid tells you what their goal is and you look at that kid and you say right now,based on my experience, I do not think you are working hard enough to accomplish that goal
or hey, if you want this outcome, you got to do this, this and this and kids get, theytake that
really personal right now and I know how hard it is to deliver that message.
(17:31):
So based on what you just shared, I want to make sure our listeners understand this isobjective truth.
Like if you want to go Division 1 and you're not working hard enough to go Division 1 andyou end up not going Division 1, I think all three of us would agree that does not make
you a bad person.
Like that makes you you.
You have made your choices.
(17:52):
You've been given your information.
and you've made your choices, but you can't have hurt feelings when someone tells you ifyou want to do this, then you need to do X, Y, and Z because guess what?
Someone else is going to do it.
And I think that a lot of people, to your point Rod, especially in this community, theydon't realize that it's not just about them.
(18:12):
Like I had a former coach or a former podcast where a coach came on and basically said,like, you got to remember, we're not just looking at you and saying no.
We're comparing you to other people we're recruiting and we're saying yes to them.
Yep.
And with that in mind, you started to allude to, both of you started to allude to someskills that people should be practicing.
(18:33):
And I wanna give you an opportunity to hammer that home.
Right now, what are the biggest skills that you guys see lacking in high school athletesthat wanna play collegiately?
I know a lot of it, I'm gonna guess a lot of it stems around actual in -game decision-making, but I wanna give you an opportunity to speak your piece.
You it.
(18:54):
Well, I think it depends on position.
mean, there are some common things that might if you're a big or you're a guard.
and it's, and it's funny because I had, actually Tony played with a Mitch watt.
So I had him in here the other day and I had him talking to, you know, my, my big guy,he's a freshman.
likes six, five.
He got a chance to be good.
And, know, I had him in the workout so he can just kind of see what a pro looks likeworking out.
(19:20):
And at that level.
you know, Mitch did was intentional.
I mean, from setting screens to how he ducked in, there was never a situation where likehe just went through the motion.
And I think a lot of times kids, especially in workouts, they don't realize thateverything in that workout is important.
(19:43):
It's like they pick and choose what part of the workout they're gonna go hard, you know,and that's important when it's like the whole thing is important.
So like, if you're a big...
some non -negotiables like things you have to be able to do to even give yourself achance.
You got to be able to run the court, right?
If you're a big and if you're not running the court, you're cutting yourself out, right?
(20:06):
You have to be able to rebound.
You have to be able to defend your position, right?
And the pain.
And then you just got to be able to finish around the basket.
Like those are non -negotiable.
If you're big, you must do those things.
Now there's extra.
Right.
Being able to put the ball on the floor, being able to shoot the three.
(20:27):
also non -negotiable setting screens.
Right.
You got to able to do that.
The non -negotiables are going to be the things that
That's automatic.
Like if you can't do that, the extras don't matter.
Like, like I said, for the, for the extra for the bigs, like shooting the three, puttingthe ball down on the floor, being able to switch off and guard a one or two, you know, on
(20:50):
ball screen and stuff like that.
If you're a guard, you know, I think some non -negotiables now the way the game is one,you do have to be able to shoot the three and at a high level, the amount of kids that I
see like, yo, I scored 25 points, like, yo, you took 25 shots.
Like that's not efficient.
So you got to be able to shoot the three.
You know, I think you obviously got to be able to handle the ball, you know, withpressure, you have to be able to create for yourself and others, you know, get in the
(21:18):
lane, paint touches.
And I think as a guard, like you need, like you need a floater in your game.
you have to be able to get in the paint and, and get a floater.
And then obviously the, the non -negotiables for a guard, man, I always say if you want tosix feet,
And if you ain't picking up full court, man, they just gonna get a six, four, six, fivepoint guard who gonna meet the dude at half court.
(21:40):
So like, you gotta be able to pick up a half court, right?
You have to be able to, you know, get up and down.
No one wants a point guard who's, who, you know, walking it up or no one want wings whoain't gonna sprint the sprint corner to corner.
You gotta be able to do that.
So it's like a couple of things like the work is the work.
You can't, you can't bypass that.
You can't get around it or anything like that.
(22:03):
And
You know, most kids, I think, don't understand that it's almost like they think they'rethe exception, right?
You see, like you said, you see a Steph Curry and it's like, well, Steph Curry wasexception.
Or you see guys who maybe didn't have that big of a high school career, like a, like aDame or CJ McCollum.
(22:23):
And it's like, well, they were the exception.
So then kids in turn think, well, if they did it and if they were the exception, thenmaybe I'm the exception too.
And it's like,
I get it, but the chances like aren't that high and they did the little things.
And, I kind of wish that people highlighted like their backstory a little bit more becausewhat we're seeing is a finished product, right?
(22:48):
We're not seeing the long hours and long days in the gym working on the fundamentals.
mean, there was a summer where Steph Curry and shoot outside the paint, you know, tryingto refine his jump shot, but those are the things kids don't really understand.
And no, so if they can learn to just do the little things, because at the next level, ifyou're the main guy in high school, a coach is not recruiting you to come in and be the
(23:17):
main guy in college.
He's recruiting you to come and play a role.
So now you might turn into the man, right?
But if you can't play a role, man, you're going to have a hard time adjusting.
I think that's why we see so many kids transferring.
because they're used to being the man and they don't understand that there's a role I gotto play.
(23:37):
And sometimes I just have to wait my turn.
Like I had to wait four years at UB.
It wasn't in my senior year where the ball was in my hand and I was able to shoot whatevershot I wanted.
You know, I had to put in my time and just keep my head down and just keep working.
So, you know, I think kids just need to understand that it's a process and the littlethings matter.
And if you can get really good at doing the little things from
(24:01):
setting screens, running the court, finishing, making the open path.
I say it all the time, passing's a skill.
People just don't work on that.
Playing defense, man, I think you give yourself a heck of a chance to get minutes and bein a rotation consistently.
Tony, Rod just answered that super thoroughly.
So I want to kind of change it up a little bit and give you some a little bit differentbecause Rod just crushed that and you don't know this yet, Rod, but there's like five
(24:27):
social media clips coming out of what you just shared.
but so for you, Tony, I want to look at it a little bit on the other side because you comefrom a coaching family, you have your own coaching experience and Rod really spoke to the
execution part.
But I can also tell you as someone that's been recruiting.
for 14 of the last 15 years that I had been blown away by how much better people havegotten in terms of their athleticism and overall ability, while at the same time getting
(24:59):
much worse at their basketball decision -making.
So from your perspective, as someone who handled the ball a lot in most aspects of theircareer, college and pro, what are the decision -making components that are missing right
now?
that kids are working on that maybe like you were required to have in high school that arenot as important right now at the high school level.
But then as soon as they get to college, it really matters.
(25:22):
What do you want to see those kids working on?
Yeah.
we're, so I'll take a quick step back to, answer this question.
We're in an, we're in an era where the individual skill set is highlighted almost morethan the team aspects, especially in the, in the, in the youth sports and, and, and even
high school.
and I, I, what I mean by that is when it comes to training, when it comes to working out,a lot of guys are working on their bag, right?
(25:49):
They're working on how can I create a shot for myself, but to
go along with a little bit what Rod said when he talked about Steph Curry, like, yes, whenwe turn on ESPN the next day or when we scroll through TikTok, we're going to see the two
step backs that he hit that were big shots in the fourth quarter.
And that were point 33 and 36 for him.
What they're not going to see is in the first quarter when he ran the court and he did abackdoor layup or when he was in the corner spotted up or where he came off a pin down
(26:16):
screen and it was just a normal catch and shoot jump shot.
Right.
Those are the things that I think we're lacking in the youth development when it comes to
the majority of our workouts, right?
So just to hit on that briefly, like you should be working on a ton of catching shoots.
How am I spacing out the floor?
How am I reading, reacting?
I should be doing those things in my workout.
(26:37):
If most of my workout comes down to me being on an island with a defender and I'm tryingto create space to get a shot off.
It's going to be tough when you transition to the next level.
So to go back to the question that you asked originally was a lot of the decision makingthings, like you said, are some of the things that are overlooked.
what happens when you're coming off of, if you're a guard, what happens when you come offa ball screen and the big man's guy hedges?
(27:02):
How are you reacting to that?
How are you reading your defender?
Is he going over the screen?
Is he going under the screen?
Are they trying to ice the screen, which means just basically force you away from thescreen?
How are you reacting to all these situations?
these are the situations you're going to be in a lot more than the shot clock being fourseconds and I got to get a bucket.
All right.
The other thing they have to work on more is what do we do when we get in the paint?
(27:23):
Because a lot of times yards are driving and you'll see it on every level from high schooland college, even in youth basketball.
When you touch the paint, you are doing really good things for your team.
How many paint touches are we getting?
How many times are we driving to the basket?
But then when you get there,
then what decision are you making?
Did you read the help side?
(27:44):
So now you have a spot up shooter.
Did the help side even come over?
Because if they don't, now you should be finishing out the basket.
Did you find where your guy who just picked and popped for you?
Do you know where his defender is?
And do know where he is?
So you can then decide if it's your turn to shoot or if it's your time to pass.
So the way I grew up personally kind of helped me develop that because all we did wasplay, right?
(28:04):
It wasn't a lot of skill based stuff.
It was just we're playing who's open, who's not, who's the hot hand, who are we trying tofeed?
Who do we need to get
open, who's running the court, who are we feeding, those are the kind of things that justdevelop naturally at least in my upbringing and just the transition to you know social
media, social media trainer, celebrity trainers, know TikTok trainer, all of those thingswe have to kind of get back to what is done more often and what decisions are made more
(28:32):
frequently as opposed to island work right, bag work right, I got this I got this guy me,mano, we mano like that stuff is the stuff that's highlighted the
next day, but the majority of the game is played five on five, finding the open man,running the court, reading, reacting.
Those are the things that kind of get underappreciated, at least from what we're seeing.
(28:55):
Do you guys have time for two more?
Yeah.
Yeah, go ahead.
Okay, so my immediate thought after what you two are sharing is, well, if you're a youngkid, where would you go to get this information?
And I think about social media and weirdly social media is both the best thing to happento basketball development and the absolute worst thing to happen to basketball development
(29:18):
at the exact same time.
And you you guys know this because Tony, I particularly shared this with you over theyears.
Anytime someone at the D3 level, while I was working down there, told me they wanted toget better at ball handling, I sent them a pro training workout on YouTube every single
time.
So like that was a great source of information and it deserves the following it has.
(29:40):
Then at the same time, you open up Instagram and I'm sure for two basketball purists likeyourselves, you see some of the dumbest things that you could possibly imagine.
But then, of course,
because the kids are young and they like flashy things, that's the stuff the kids want towork on.
So my question to you as people that are centered in skill development, which isoftentimes like a vilified thing, like coaches want to have this beef with skill
(30:08):
developers a lot of times.
What messages do you send to these kids to get them doing the right things?
And more importantly for this, what would you tell a young person to try to avoid?
Like when they see something flashy on the internet,
what would be the thing you want them to like steer away from and refocus to actually getbetter at basketball?
(30:29):
Yeah, I'll take this one first.
So this is definitely not a bash on other trainers, other coaches or anything like that.
So the I want to make sure I said that first before I go to what I'm about to say.
But essentially, I'm actually going to take it off the court just for a second.
Right.
When I'm sick.
When I have an illness, if I have something that's going on for a while, I go and see adoctor.
(30:52):
I go to see someone who's had the education.
I go to see someone who's had the experience.
I go to see someone who's seen it before and knows how to remedy the situation as quick aspossible.
When my car breaks down, and then I know there's some people who are self -mechanics, butI'm taking it to a shop.
I'm going to see a mechanic.
I'm going to see someone who can literally look at my car and be like, this is theproblem.
(31:13):
It's either this problem or this problem, and I know how to fix both of them.
Thank
So to bring it back to the court, the same thing or the same mindset should be applied.
I should be looking and talking to people who have done it before, who have theexperience, who have been in a position where they have to solve the same problem that I
have.
So now I can, I can expedient my learning curve by feeding off of their experience.
(31:37):
What you don't want to do, what you want to try to avoid.
And I'm not saying that there's no trainers out there who haven't played at a high levelthat you can't learn from, because there's definitely a few guys out there, but
The things you do want to try to avoid are the guys who have you dribbling more than threetimes to get a bucket.
The guys who are saying, you know, this is what's going to make you elite, right?
(31:58):
You don't need to be elite in a lot of categories.
If you are good at the basics, if you are elite fundamentalist, you're going to be anelite basketball player, period.
I mean, there's a time where Klay Thompson, I think, scored 67 points with 11 dribbles inthe entire game.
So there's a lot of things that you can do.
make you an efficient athlete where all the other stuff you can avoid.
(32:22):
All the additional step backs, euro steps, spin moves, while there are certain positionsthat call for it, there are certain times in the game that do call for something like
that, the other 85 to 95 percent of the time you are shot faking one dribble pull up, youare spacing out catch and shoot, you're running the floor when you're making a layup,
you're getting fouled from driving hard to the basket and making a few free throws.
(32:45):
There's going to be out of your
20 shots that you shoot, 10 to 15 of those are going to be basic one dribble pull -ups,floaters, running the court, making a layup, spotting up shooting a three, coming off of a
down screen or a ball screen and knocking down the shot.
Those are going to be the majority of your shots and those are things you should stronglywork on and not necessarily avoid completely everything else but it should just be a small
(33:10):
part of your regimen instead of the main piece of your workouts.
that.
Thank you for sharing that.
What you got Rod?
I mean, I think Tony pretty much hit it on the head with that.
In your workouts, I think there's a time and place for everything.
whether it's the two ball, dribbling, tennis balls, cones, all that stuff, I think thatpart can, or those types of drills can play a part in a workout, but it should be five, 10
(33:40):
minutes.
Maybe something at the beginning just to get you warmed up.
Maybe work on hand -eye coordination, something like that, right?
But once you actually get into like the heart of the workout, it needs to be centeredaround things that you're going to do in the game.
Just like Tony said, 90, 95 % of the time.
I know the workout that, that I do here, everything is based off of, you know, a lot ofcatching shoe, one, two dribble pull -ups.
(34:06):
So we're driving and kicking, we're re -spacing, relocating.
We're coming off screen, throwing back, hitting the corner.
Like we're working on game situations and we're repping that out.
So that way when they get in the game and they go through those same situations, they knowlike, as I'm driving, that opposite corner is gonna be open.
(34:26):
You know, if I'm coming off this screen, my big's gonna be rolling.
This is the type of pass I'm gonna get to my big.
Or as he's rolling, I know the guy in the corner is gonna help, so now I'm gonna throw itover top to the guy in the corner.
So like, those are the situations in our workout that we go through so it's more.
game -based and like situational as opposed to just, all right, we're gonna set up allthese cones, right?
(34:50):
We're gonna do all these ball handling drills, know, retreat, double step back between thelegs, behind the back, fade away, you know, type of stuff.
And it's, you might do that two, three seconds left on the shot clock.
You gotta get a shot off.
But if you really hammer home just the basic stuff.
(35:11):
I'm telling you, it's going to go a long way because reality of it, like Tony said, youdon't need to be elite.
You need to be consistent.
You need to, can you consistently make shots?
Can you consistently get in the paint?
Right?
Can you consistently take care of the ball?
If you can do those, can you consistently defend?
If you can do those things, you're going to play, right?
(35:34):
There's only a handful of guys that are elite.
And I think we need to stop training to, you know,
to be elite because I don't want like LeBron's elite, KD's elite, like Steph Kerr, likethose are elite guys.
So we need to train more on just being consistent as opposed to being elite.
(35:55):
And I know, you know, everyone now putting stuff on IG and that's not going to get theviews, right?
The things that are going to get the views.
or the crazy things and I get that.
you have to kind of, and sometimes even with what we do, to keep kids sometimes comingback, it's like, if you just do that stuff, sometimes that can be considered boring.
(36:19):
So what's gonna happen is even though the kids needs it, they're gonna end up sometimesmaybe going somewhere else and doing stuff that they don't need, but it's fun, it's
entertaining.
But fun and entertaining doesn't necessarily equate to being efficient, right?
Getting minutes.
So a lot of times kids are like, hey, I'm struggling shooting.
(36:41):
Well, I'm like, but what are you doing?
Well, I'm doing this and this.
You know, I'm doing all these shots off the dribble and all.
Well, what kind of shots are you getting in your game?
Catch and shoot, drips to the corner, lifts.
Are you working on those?
No.
Well, there's the gap.
You got to work on the type of shots you shoot at the game speed.
(37:02):
in your workouts and in practice that you're going to get in the game.
There's always going to be this gap in between the two.
Before we move on to our last question, just want to let the record state that we aretalking to two former professional athletes.
This was their job and they have both in their own way just shared with you that theirworkouts were basic and centered around their roles and developing consistency in their
(37:32):
roles to better serve their teams.
And that's what earned them more.
Just really important to throw that out there.
So my last question, and just so you guys know, I am asking this question to everyone onthe second half of the season, because at the end of the day, this is designed to be a
podcast about the recruiting process.
So this is my hypothetical.
(37:54):
Tony Watson and Rod Milton have magically traveled back in time.
They are 16 years old.
They're sophomores in high school, except they know everything that they know now, andit's the year 2024.
So you have access to all these new things.
man.
But you're 16 again.
What would the two of you do to kickstart your recruiting process right now?
(38:14):
If you like just decided, I wanna play college basketball, what would you do to kickstartyour process right now?
or broad answers, are we actually college prospects up to this point or am I just pickingup a basketball for the first time?
you as coach Jared Zeidman that you are able division one prospects and I believe you havehigh ceilings.
(38:35):
So good question and I've provided you the answer I think you need.
appreciate it.
All right.
Yeah, Rod, you got it first.
well, I think the first thing, like I said, I said it early in the podcast.
I'm going out and I'm trying to find, you know, our trainer or someone who has done whatI'm trying to do.
(38:57):
I think that's, that's the first thing.
And I always say, man, if I, if I had someone to guide me and, you know, help me, youknow, shorten that learning curve.
You know, I think I would have developed a lot sooner than what I did.
So I think that's the first thing.
And then once I find that person, you know, I'm taking their advice and I'm in the gym,you know, I'm working and my game was never flashy.
(39:28):
You know, I was a guy who I did all the little things and it's funny because my, to kindof get off topic, but my first year overseas in France.
coach brings me into the office.
weren't, we weren't doing that because we were losing a lot of games.
It's like beginning of December.
And he was like, you know, we, we need to make some changes.
(39:51):
And in my mind, I'm like, man, they're about to send me home, you know, first job I'mabout to get sent home.
But he was like, you know, management, they wanted to send you home.
He was like, but, you know, I see you every day in the gym before, before practice starts,you're in the gym after practice.
And he was like, I vouch for you.
He's like, I know your time's coming.
He was like, just keep doing what you're doing.
(40:11):
So I ended up avoiding getting sent home my first year, all because I was the first one inthe gym, last one to leave every day.
And the coach saw that.
And because of that, he was able to vouch for me to management when they wanted to makechanges and send people home.
(40:32):
So I ended up sticking around just because of that.
You know, going back to, know, if I was 16, just continue to be in the gym, you know, haveaccess to the gym, getting there early before school, working out.
I really didn't take into strength training until I got to prep school.
(40:53):
That's when I really understood the importance of it.
My first maybe four years of high school, man, I wanted nothing to do with the weightroom.
Right.
I just didn't know.
So I would definitely
what I know about you, that's crazy to hear out loud.
That's a crazy thing to hear out loud.
Like I was the kid when the football, cause I played basketball and football when thefootball team had lifting, I played basketball.
(41:18):
When the basketball team had lifting, I played football.
Like I always found a way to like get out the weight room.
Cause in my mind, I was like, yo, I just want to play.
I don't want to work out.
I don't want to do anything in the weight room.
I just want to like work out, on the court or be on the football field.
like.
Looking back, I wish my basketball, like the strength training side of it, I did that alot earlier.
(41:41):
I didn't start lifting until like 18, 19 maybe.
And it's crazy because my freshman year at UB, like I was the strongest kid on the team.
I mean, I came into UB, I was benching like 320 as a freshman.
Like I was, that's all I did in preschool was just lift.
So like, if I knew that in high school,
(42:03):
And just, you know, what type of shots to take, what to work on.
Man, I might not even be on this podcast right now.
I would probably be, I'll probably be finished.
think I probably would have made the league or playing overseas somewhere.
Like I would have, I would have still been playing if I had that type of vice.
(42:23):
So I think that's what I would done.
Just hit the weight room and then found someone who was knowledgeable, who can just guideme along and whatever they told me.
That's what I'm doing.
So key, key emphasis on finding a mentor, taking the mentors advice, and then focusing onyour growth.
What you got T2?
Yeah, so I'm gonna go back first.
(42:44):
I would buy the Hooper handbook, 12 habits that every basketball player needs.
There we go.
to God, as you say that there's going to be a picture of it.
We'll do like a picture and like a smiley face or something.
Yeah.
No, I'm slightly joking, but at the same time, if I'm making the decision at 16, I'mgetting organized.
And that's exactly what the book does.
It helps you get organized and make a schedule, all those things.
(43:07):
So I would I would make a promise to myself that this is what I'm to do.
And here's how I'm going to get from A to B.
And then I'm going to gather my team of people who's going to help me get from A to B.
You're not going to be able to do it alone.
You need coaches.
You need trainers.
You need parents.
You need to support staff.
or support system.
If you don't have parents, find somebody who's willing to help you on this journey.
(43:29):
If you don't have a good basketball coach, go find a good trainer that can help you get tothis journey.
Vice versa, if you don't have a trainer, find a good basketball coach that can help youthrough this journey.
So I'm gathering all the ammunition that I need to get me to the next level.
As well as working out relentlessly, working on my strengths, working on my weaknesses,getting stronger, getting faster, getting more explosive, I'm also searching for
(43:51):
opportunities to showcase myself.
I say that very hesitantly because there's an event every single weekend that claims thatthey're helping the kids with food.
You have to pick the right ones.
You have to do your research.
This is where those mentors, where you're supporting staff, where your team is going tohelp you make the right decisions on which events are worth going to, which events aren't
(44:12):
worth going to, and then also putting you in a position or on a platform to then showcasethe skills that you've developed up to that point.
And what I mean by that is, are you playing on a circuit?
Are you playing on
team?
Are you playing in front of coaches?
If you're playing on a travel team that no coaches are watching, you are not gettingrecruited, period.
No one's recruiting you.
(44:33):
So you have to make sure you're on a travel team who's playing in front of people who isthen looking at you to recruit.
All right?
And then on those teams that you're on, you have to make sure that you are a factor in thegame too.
It's great to play for, you know,
the EYBL team.
It's great to play in the Adidas Gauntlet, but if you're sitting on the bench for most ofthe game or if you're just running up and down most of the game, you're not doing anything
(45:00):
that's helping your position.
So make sure you have a good reality check and you put yourself on a team that's going toshowcase you.
You don't have to be a starter.
You don't have to be the best guy on the team.
You just have to be in a position where you're actually impacting the game.
Are you picking up full court so that they can see you can play defense against the otherteam's best player?
Are you in a position to make shots?
(45:21):
position to contribute in some way shape or form that allows the coaches who are watchingto then evaluate you and look at you and ask the one question that they ask about every
single player that they're recruiting.
Can this player help me win more games?
If you can't do that, you are not getting recruited by that school.
(45:42):
If they don't think you can help them win games, then they're going to find someone elsewho can then help them win games.
So you have to be in a position where you can impact the games that they're coming towatch.
And then you have to put yourself in a position where they look at you and say, hey, thisplayer will fit in this position on my program.
And now I want to see more of this player to make sure they are the right player that Iwant to recruit and hopefully offer a scholarship.
(46:07):
But working out relentlessly, finding the support staff that I need to support
to help me get from A to B and then putting myself in a position to showcase my skillswith the things that I would do at age 16 to get me to the next level.
describe the last 45 minutes.
let's hear it.
Let's hear it, Roddy.
me just, let me just, it's funny that Tony said, you know, no one was circuits in teams toplay on.
(46:33):
And when I was in high school, I had, there was two teams.
There was one team that was called Illinois Warriors and they was on the EYBO circuit,right?
The Nike gear and all that stuff.
And there was another team that was more of like a local, but they played in some.
They played in some good tournaments and the tournaments that they went to, you know, wasmaybe low major D1 tournament.
mean, coaches D2 and stuff like that.
(46:56):
So I had opportunity to choose which one.
And obviously I chose the EYBL one because it's, it's Nike, you know, I'm getting freeshoes.
I'm getting this and you know, we go to Peach Jam and you know, we're playing against someof these guys.
When I say like, I didn't get in, there were games like I literally, I did not play.
And I'm like, yo.
(47:18):
Like I'm pissed because I like I thought I was good and even in practice, like I competedwith those guys.
But like that team, they already had like their guys said, I mean, they had guys going toIowa, Michigan State, Illinois, Wisconsin, you know, and I was more of like a low, know,
low major D1.
(47:38):
And like looking back, I'm like, you know, I was just there to probably like fit the billfor some of the other players.
You know what saying?
So understanding, you know, your situation and are you actually going to be a part of theteam and playing or are you just on the team?
And I think sometimes kids fall in love with saying, I'm playing on EYBL team when reallyyou need to play on this other team that's going to go to maybe some of these, these other
(48:06):
tournaments, but you're going to get seen.
You're going to be able to play.
You're going to be in the rotation and it might not be the top of the top, but
you just got to get your foot in the door.
And I think that's where a lot of kids fall short is that they want to do that next, youknow, big flashy thing, they'll play for the elite team and do all that stuff because of
(48:29):
all the promises.
And it's like, no one's coming to watch y 'all if y in the back gym.
You know what mean?
No, like you got to be on a team where you can actually showcase your skill.
So, you know, I think Tony made a good point.
We're saying like you have to do your research.
And it does take a team for you to understand what type of player you are, what role, andbe honest with like what level do you see yourself at?
(48:57):
And just to say, yo, I'm a high major.
We all want to be high majors, but the reality of it is like, I was a low major player.
I went to UB and kind of ended up turning into that mid major.
And UB, kind of rose from.
being at the bottom of the Mac to now mid towards the top of the back.
So, you you just got to take advantage of the opportunities you've given and then make themost of them.
(49:24):
And then, you know, who knows what can happen from there.
Yeah, one thing to add to, Jerry, before we wrap things up, too, so I know we got to go.
One kind of thing that I've been telling a lot of players that I've worked with is forwhatever level you want to go to, Division 1, Division 2, Division 3, pick the school that
you can foresee yourself at.
(49:45):
From there, go to their roster and literally click the guys who you think are in theposition that you want.
From there, look at their bios.
Look exactly what they are, what they did in high school, what they do.
If your resume does not amount to their resume, chances are you're not going to thatschool.
For example, if I want to play at Kentucky, I'm just making up, I'm making up everythingand I'm a point guard like I am, like I was when I played.
(50:13):
I'm going to go to their roster.
I'm going to click and see who are all the point guards on their roster.
I'm going to look at some very specific details.
How tall are they?
How much do they weigh?
What they did in high school?
What were their stats like?
What accolades did they achieve?
Who did they play for in the coming up in high school?
All those things were going to then say, maybe I can compete at this level.
(50:38):
For me, I'm a 6 '1", I can shoot, I can make good decisions, but Kentucky's point guards,they're 6 '5", they're fast, they're athletic, they play McDonald's All -American, they
play EY, you know what I'm saying?
So they have a very good track record.
And I'm not saying the stats are gonna be apples and apples, but at the same time, there'sgoing to be a lot of indications that show you if this is where you're kind of a mountain
(51:01):
yourself.
And I'm not trying to discourage anybody, I'm just trying to say, let's look at this fromthe lens that the colleges are looking at, because they...
Kentucky as it makes sense right so in Kentucky you have to be 6 -5 to play point guardfor them because the other teams that they're gonna play Tennessee Florida Duke North
Carolina their point guards are gonna be 6 -5 in athletics so can you guard the other guyswho that team is gonna play against so those are the kind of things that kind of help then
(51:25):
I've and I've walked players down this path to say okay that's cool that you want thisdream all right so let's look at what you need to become in order for you to get to this
level
And that reality check has helped some players.
So now they kind of dial in where they should kind of, you know, focus themselves andthings like that.
Sometimes it discourages them, but at least they now know the truth so that they can thenprogress.
(51:48):
Now you're at the crossroad.
Do I continue down this path?
Do I change what I'm doing?
Or do I double down and make sure I get to where I'm actually trying to go?
But that's just another way for you to kind of see where you stack up and maybe how youcan potentially help in your recruiting efforts as well.
If I were to invent a stat, I guess I would call the stat valuable information per minute,like almost like you were breaking down the engine of the car.
(52:12):
This is like the Floyd Mayweather of valuable information per minute podcast.
There was no fat on this interview.
This was just, this was 12 rounds of really like pound for pound, fast moving, the mostinformation you'll ever get in a podcast.
This was incredible.
This is going to be super valuable for our listeners.
(52:32):
Thank you guys so much for coming on.
I can't wait to see you again in Buffalo.
We gotta catch up for a Bills game or something.
But thank you guys again for your time.
Love it.
Absolutely, Thanks for having us,
All right.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!