Jared here. In this episode of The Nail the Recruiting Process Podcast, I’m joined by Katherine Plouffe—one of the top women’s 3x3 basketball players in the world and the leader of Team Canada 3X3. In the midst of her final competitive season, Katherine pulls back the curtain on what it truly takes to perform at the highest level.
We talk about the mental shift that came with transitioning from 5-on-5 to 3x3, and why that shift unlocked a whole new level of creativity, freedom, and growth in her game. Katherine shares how the nature of 3x3—its speed, spacing, and nonstop decision-making—requires constant communication, adaptability, and trust. And why players who embrace the chaos, rather than fear it, tend to rise.
But this conversation isn’t just about tactics or stats. It’s about the mindset behind it all. Katherine opens up about confidence, self-doubt, overthinking, and what it really takes to push yourself to that next level—not just as a player, but as a person. Whether it’s learning a new position, managing frustration, or showing up with consistency, her path is a masterclass in humility, work ethic, and growth.
If you’re an athlete (or the parent of one) trying to understand what elite performance looks like—and what kind of mindset gets you there—this episode delivers insight you won’t find in highlight reels.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Catherine Plouffe, fresh off a European road trip for basketball.
I am so excited to see you and thank you so much for being here.
Thanks for having me on, Jared.
Excited for our conversation.
So right now, I feel like we are in a peak moment of three on threes sort of popularity inits introduction to the basketball community.
(00:25):
And when I think about three on three basketball, a huge thing that kind of jumps out atme is the versatility needed to be successful, regardless of whatever your five on five
position is on paper.
You have to be able to have a bunch of different skills.
And I feel like when it comes to versatility, especially on the women's side of three onthree, I would point your film out specifically to a lot of people.
(00:54):
So my first question for you is, was there sort of a point where you acknowledged as aplayer that like your versatility was a huge strength of what you did?
That's a good question.
Well, I guess how I landed and launched into 3x3 was ah an accumulation of differentevents where I was leaving 5 on 5 national team, had an opportunity with my sister and one
(01:24):
of our teammates Paige Crozin to start the team.
And so it wasn't necessarily a strategic thought out.
My skill set is going to be a great fit for 3x3.
um There was just a
confidence and excitement of like, let's try this sport and see what could happen.
Was I confident in my abilities overall as a player?
(01:46):
Yeah, but I didn't see uh really uh the strengths come to play until I started playing andsaw like, okay, wow, like, not only myself, but my teammates, we have a great uh
combination of skill sets that allows us to be really successful in the game.
So that's fun when this when the skills and the
(02:07):
different strengths combined to create a great product and finish on the court.
Like it's a blessing for sure.
as a follow-up to that, you know, you've been a competitive athlete for a really longtime, forgetting about status, like whether you're pro, collegiate, amateur, you've been
playing the game for so long.
(02:28):
Is there a certain feeling that sort of clicks when you start playing three on three andyou're like, whoa, this is, this happens to like really expose a lot of the best parts of
my skillset.
Like what's that feeling like?
you know what?
is...
I'm not sure.
It is such a creative um game because it's new strategy.
(02:52):
And I think that's an exciting part for me as a player is that, I mean, I don't play fiveon five anymore.
I just play 3x3.
And so the transition into 3x3 is like, wow, we can do something really new and cool andstrategize in a different way to think differently about the game, about how we use the
court.
about how we use our strengths.
(03:13):
And we really, as a team, like have, and I think the sport in itself, because you have tobe so versatile, like you said, uh is that it like allows for so much freedom to develop.
And that's something that's always been exciting for me is like, okay, cool.
Like where can I grow as a person, as a player?
And uh that can be, you know, like it's very exposing, like you said, of your strengths,also your weaknesses.
(03:39):
I'm
You get exposed.
And I think like players who play, there's a quality of like, if you are humble and knowthat you'll get exposed, but you know your strengths, you're willing to work at some of
the gaps to fill uh for your team, it can be like a really fun uh launch into a new typeof player and a new type of uh style of basketball.
(04:05):
On the subject of that style, you mentioned your teammates.
One of the teammates being your sister.
And one of the really unique things about the three on three game is the old schoolbackyard component of I can kick out the ball to my sister past the three point line.
And as soon as it's there, she could just fire it back to me.
(04:27):
So I'm used to telling people at the five on five level, like you don't have time to sulkafter a missed shot.
You have to get home and transition.
That's at least four real time seconds.
I have clips of you on YouTube lined up of outlining the ball and getting it back to scorein less than one second.
(04:47):
Can you speak to that speed change and what it's like?
Because you just talked about limitations being exposed.
I imagine that transition point is a huge part of it.
Yeah, that came with time and repetitions for sure of like, honestly, what's the best waywe can conserve our energy because we're so exhausted when we're playing.
(05:07):
And so it's like the easiest thing sometimes is the most necessary thing to do becauseit's a sprint and a marathon.
we're, like it is the most tiring sport I've ever played ever.
Like hands down, there's no five on five game that made me more tired than a three X threetournament.
um
And it's like the conservation of energy, the ways to be more efficient.
(05:31):
We always are trying to look at like, how can we be the most efficient in the least timepossible?
Or even getting a positive result out of a play or action on the court.
We're looking to see how can we capitalize on fewer actions to get a shot, to get a greatshot.
So that's like the strategy involved.
(05:52):
And the first quickest way is to have a transition and right back in.
China, Team China on the women's side, their whole strategy last year, it's a little bitdifferent now because they have a different, um I think they have a slightly different
roster, but they were the biggest team across their roster in height.
And one of their main strategies was just kick it back out, already have a seal and postup so that they can kick it back in.
(06:18):
that was, probably they got 10 points a game on doing that.
So yeah.
Is it fair to say then, because I feel like a lot of people listening, this is going to betheir intro to understanding 3X3.
Is it fair to say that one of the most valuable things then in 3X3 is a defensive rebound?
(06:42):
Yes, defensive rebound and a quick transition for sure.
And it is so interesting because when I um play with um local guys here to like bring themin, know, train with them, build a bigger group to train with because we need more people
playing 3X3 to train 3X3.
(07:03):
And so that's the biggest difference of playing, um the speed of the game is
They don't know yet the speed of the game of transition and how quick it can move on apass.
Obviously it's quicker than a dribble.
um But it's so fun.
You don't have time to think your shots looking nice and going in because the other team'salready playing transition.
(07:25):
So that would be a key to the game for sure.
Well, we're gonna revisit this later, and I look forward to asking you about it, but itsounds like a next play mentality is mission critical to your game.
Yeah, I look forward to exploring that more shortly.
um When you and I first spoke in trying to set this up, I shared with you a piece of datathat I got from college coaches that talked about positions in basketball and how the
(07:56):
average high school kid thinks they're getting recruited.
play a certain position, but the average college coach does not think that's going to betheir actual position through their college career, that there's really no expectation.
And you responded almost immediately, did you know I was recruited to Marquette at adifferent position than I played?
And I had no idea.
(08:17):
I would love it if you could share a little bit of that experience because there are somany athletes that are confronted with that ask from a coaching staff and don't always
know what to make of it.
Yeah, so um when I was growing up, Michelle and I played different positions.
I was usually a few inches looking back at photos.
(08:38):
I was like, wow, I was quite a bit shorter than her.
So which is so surprising because now I outgrew her.
um at the time she was like the four, five forward.
I was a little bit smaller.
I was like the one, two, three.
So we'd cover all the positions together in whatever role we had to play.
And
(08:58):
And I think a couple of things went into that is that our mindset from a young age was wehad a couple of different coaches who allowed us to play with with them on their older
team.
So we were quite young playing with older girls.
And so we were not the biggest fish in the pond.
We didn't have a choice.
Like I prefer to do X, Y, Z on the court.
We were just there to show up to learn and to fulfill whatever the team needed.
(09:24):
And so that was a big foundational.
was that we didn't have preferences.
We just wanted to play basketball and learn and grow and be better players and have anopportunity to play.
And then in high school, like we did quite well.
had Iron Sharpen's Iron.
I wouldn't be the player I am without her for sure.
(09:45):
And we had each other going into different situations.
We were younger, we were smaller, whatever it was.
And so we built a skill set of learning, being the smaller players.
going back to our team who were maybe our same age and we're the taller players.
So we developed this skill set of uh versatility, I think, because of those opportunities.
uh But same thing in high school, which was the most competitive.
(10:11):
We played on our provincial teams and on that team, like I had a different role than shedid and whatnot, but it was always kind of like what the team needed.
I was ready to do.
And so in...
In high school, you know what?
Looking back, I don't even know what my coaches told me what position they'd recruit meas.
Like maybe a three.
I'm really unsure because in high school I played like a one, two, three.
(10:35):
Yeah.
And when I went to Marquette, we had um a senior.
think she was a sixth year senior at that point because she had a couple of injuries.
She was the center.
She got injured again at the beginning of the season and.
You know, my mindset going in was not of high expectations that I'd play or that I, youknow, already earned a whatever spot.
(11:00):
Like I was, I just knew I was going there to work hard and learn and like play basketballand whatever the team needed, I would do.
Like I really, I wasn't, I knew I was coming into a bigger pond.
Like I was going to be a small fish.
Everyone who was going to a high level university or even, you know, like post high schoolcareer.
(11:21):
you're going to be a smaller fish in the pond, so to speak, for most cases, because inhigh school you stand out, you're going to go to a next team where there's a bunch of high
school standouts.
um So I went there and um there was injuries on my team and I'd never played a postposition before, ever.
Like I would never play back to the basket.
(11:42):
I was always a guard and my coach was like, okay, KP, that's what they called me.
They're like,
you're going to be the starting center.
And I was like, excuse me.
Like I was like, are you sure?
Like, are you sure?
Like I have never played this position before.
(12:02):
There's a couple older girls on my team who maybe one who like could have been a, couldhave, she was more of a forward.
But they decided I was like the tallest person and I was willing and I worked my butt off.
So I was there and I got this opportunity.
I would say I was the hardest worker in definitely my freshman class of like just willingto put the work in.
(12:24):
uh And, you know, had a great foundation of principles and values from different coacheswho, you know, you show up, you work hard.
uh I have respect for my coaches.
So was like, whatever you ask of me, I will do to the best of my abilities.
I was trying to be excellent in whatever I was doing.
And so the opportunity came and I was like, okay, if that's what the team needs.
(12:47):
I will learn that position.
Was it hard?
Heck yes.
There was lots of tears.
Lots of tears.
Lots of like, okay, go work on a side basket on your skills because we're going to needyou to be better to come back to the team.
So it was so, it was super frustrating.
Not gonna lie.
um But was it valuable for my overall development as a player?
(13:08):
A thousand percent.
And so I think maybe sometimes like in youth and even high school and
college careers, like what is the ultimate goal for you as a player?
Like is it sticking to what you know to be comfortable, what you want to do?
Or could an opportunity arise where maybe it's different and uncomfortable, but it couldopen doors to whatever the team needs.
(13:35):
I think you need a level of humility to succeed as a player and especially as a teambecause it is a team sport, it's a team environment where
You you might be asked by your coaches or your teammates to do something that's notcomfortable for you to do or not that you want to do.
You know, like I know players want to, I don't know if players want to be point guardsthese days, like maybe.
(14:02):
Yeah, shooting guard.
The shooting guard.
But like to be a true point guard, it's like you're a distributor.
Do players want to be the distributor and have like high level passing and high level IQ?
I know if that's glamorized these days, so you see, I see less of it for sure, of greatpassers, but that could also be a huge role where you could stand out if you're trying to
(14:24):
be excellent in that.
So, that answer your question?
I don't know.
percent and it also it also leaves me with an interesting thought because I mean there isno point of either my college experience or my professional career in coaching where I
could have predicted to you where I ended up five years from that time.
(14:46):
Is there any moment as you're going through this experience at Marquette and for thelisteners who might not know this the thing that happens for you during your experience at
Marquette is
you become better and better at a forward position, which also unlocks the trust with yourcoaching staff.
And then you get to do some of your guard stuff too.
And the next thing you know, you're shooting threes, you're dishing the ball, you're doingall these things.
(15:11):
Is there any moment where you're thinking to yourself, I'm gonna just become like a pointforward professionally now.
Did you have that vision even remotely because of this?
ah I didn't have like, it's funny enough, like I didn't have uh a dream years in advanceto say like, that's why I'm doing things.
(15:31):
It was honestly like just, and my coaches really, like I struggle a lot with like beingconfident even who I was as a player and the skillset I had.
uh I remember the first, my freshman year.
So I'd been starting as center and I was, know, like my first year developing all thesenew skills.
I still had a lot of skill sets from previous.
(15:54):
It's not like they just lost them.
They were just being used differently.
And I remember in our, we went to the NCAA tournament and we played Tennessee at Tennesseein the second round.
So it was if we won, we were going to the Sweet 16.
And um we lost.
I forget by how many, but I remember my coach saying after to me like, oh, like basicallythe message being like, you're a great player if you like.
(16:20):
play like it, like we want you to build the confidence because you could be great.
But the message was like, if you like score 10 more points, we would have won.
And, you know, like the heart she was trying to say like, you can do more, like you are agreat player, like, go out and be a great player.
But for me, I had, uh I always had a struggle of like, okay, how much like, how much do Ihave to hold back?
(16:45):
I don't know, I had this hold back mentality, which is
you know, like who knows what I could have done.
I don't know.
I had a great, great career and really grateful, but that's been the, the like thorn oflike, okay, just go for it.
Like be all, all, in.
I think sometimes we think we're all in and going after something and pushing ourselves,but I feel like there's always an extra level of like.
(17:09):
and then what?
know, like a little bit more.
want to share this with you because you'd have no way of knowing this before having thisconversation with me.
What you just said out loud is one of the biggest frustration points that currentscholarship level coaches bring up to me.
That they get a sense that their players are holding themselves back.
(17:35):
what I'm hearing, at least anecdotally, is fear of letting their teammates down.
Am I too selfish if I take five or six more shots a game?
If I try to attempt this path that no one else on my team makes and it goes wrong, have Iput this team in a horrible position?
And my messaging back has always been like, well, we'll never know if you don't do it.
(18:00):
Yeah, totally.
So that's, I'm actually really, really grateful that you shared this because I thinkthere's a lot of young athletes, especially on the women's side that kind of have that
fear of like, what if, what happens if I unlock that next gear?
Yeah, yeah, isn't that interesting?
I think it's so fascinating.
I like the deeper dives of like, why do we think certain things?
(18:22):
Like what makes us, what creates our mindset and perspective on how we view the world, howwe view ourselves in the world and like, how do we course correct?
Because for me, when I even say that out loud, I'm like, okay, well, there's that fear.
But if I had...
uh
This we can go back.
(18:42):
These obviously are things and patterns that come back from like how we're raised.
So parenting is a thing, it's like comes from we have a, we know we have trust in ourcoaches, our teammates to some extent, but like a big part is, is our coaches.
We trust them.
We know we're loved, we're valued, regardless of how we perform.
That is, that's the biggest foundation of a player trusting themselves to go out and trylike to go out and like give a little bit extra.
(19:11):
Knowing that like, okay, their teammates might have something to say, but like, that'sokay.
You gotta know your vision and your values and how you wanna show up as a person, as aplayer.
That is very important to know internally so that when you don't perform, when differentthings come up, maybe when your teammates are mad, like you still know how you showed up,
(19:35):
that you know you're living according to your values and that's most important thing.
I wish more young people understood how important that is at that age.
Right?
It's a different thing to be in our thirties and be like, this is really now we get it.
I don't think a lot of younger people realize when we give them advice, we're not actuallysaying do what I did.
(20:01):
We're saying do what I didn't.
And maybe you'll overcome this obstacle quicker than I did.
So I think it's really interesting that you said that.
So for you, like when you hear that, like what is, what do you think is the solution?
if young athletes are feeling like that and it's not just words, like how does that lookin action of how to help an athlete overcome that?
(20:25):
can tell you what mine is and I think my answer will be a little different than othercoaches because my background before I got into coaching was student affairs
administration and counseling.
So I always try to empathetically listen first.
Like long before we're on the court coming up with a solution, there's a 20 to 30 minutesit down in my office and we're just talking it out and trying to flesh out like.
(20:53):
what does your next level actually look like?
And then my immediate next thing is making sure that they understand that a realistic wayof getting to the next level is not furiously cannonballing into the deep end of the pool,
right?
So an example I would give is if I have a right-hand dominant forward who is reallycapable
(21:19):
of going left and mid-range jump shooting, but has been kind of afraid to bust it out ingames.
We end that conversation.
We watch a little bit of film.
And then our workout is very basic things to get her left hand going.
Not, I hate saying it this way, but like not what you see on Instagram.
(21:40):
Not 45 minutes of dribbling through a twister, excuse me, dribbling through a twisterboard.
or doing all these crazy things, it's more, hey, let's fake right, drop step, counterleft.
And let's get like 10 makes.
And then once you get your 10 makes, I'm gonna hit you with a pad a little bit so you canfeel really good about it.
(22:01):
And a lot of times, I guess it would fall into the category, Catherine, of trying togenerate confidence in a controlled environment.
But then the next step and the way we end it is, I'm going to celebrate in game you tryingit.
not the result.
So I actually have a very vintage memory of a kid who like the team understood what shewas trying to do for the team and how she would grow.
(22:30):
And even if she didn't do it successfully, the talk on the team would say, great decision,great decision, great decision.
So even if she was running back on defense and upset about it, her mind was like, okay,I'm helping my teammates.
didn't go well, but I'm helping my team.
That would probably be the best example I can give you because I'm, I think you'dunderstand this, especially with your own experience.
(22:54):
How helpful am I if I just break your confidence, if I make it worse?
Yeah, not.
uh So, yeah, I, you know, and I would say as a coach, the moments I regret the most arethe moments where I got too heated or like too emotional in the moment.
And I did that to someone.
And then, of course, like that night I'm at home being like, why did I do that?
(23:16):
Yeah, totally.
So, does that answer it for you?
Like, does that give a vision of, yeah.
So actually now, let's flip it for you.
You know, you are trying to pick up these skills to be a forward.
We know kind of what your guard skills are.
(23:36):
What are some of the moments where you started to feel better and more comfortable aboutthat skill set?
Like, what did that work look like for you?
Uh, pfft, man.
that's a good question.
I honestly don't remember specifically, I think just getting comfortable having my back tothe basket.
(23:58):
It's a different, it's just different if you're used to facing and now you're back to thebasket and then you have to square up and ah face the basket.
Just slightly different like tactical footwork things.
ah Even finishing like slightly different, I don't know, at the rim.
(24:18):
Just lots of repetitions, honestly.
um And did I brick a lot of laps?
Yeah, sure did.
I remember having anxiety of like, I was a great runner, like transition.
I would just be gone and my point guard would pass me the ball and transition.
1-0.
And I remember there was a time when my coaches and everyone on the bench probably heldtheir breath as it was just me in the room because I just started off like, bricking, just
(24:45):
anxiety around like, my gosh, one on zero.
I over thought things so much.
So funny.
Even through my professional career, like I remember I was very aware of um my coachesreactions and um their emotions.
Like I was just in tune and so when they were anxious I would be anxious.
(25:05):
like, you know, there probably was a lot of internal assumptions too about like wanting topeople please and all this kind of stuff.
But so funny.
Different skill set for sure.
I think that's really interesting because what you just said in my opinion is not just animportant message for players It's an important message for coaches because people would
(25:26):
know you as being objectively great in the three-on-three game and for you to say likejust so you know I'm also emotionally in tune to what's going on around me even now I
think that's an important thing for coaches to keep and internalize as well.
I wanna before we talk about really young
Catherine Palufan, give some advice to high school kids going through the recruitingprocess.
(25:49):
I really want to break down uh three on three a little bit more because the game itself isso interesting to me.
m I want to start by sharing that I was involved recently with the recruiting processbefore I got out of coaching of a Canadian forward.
She's currently at Eastern Michigan.
(26:10):
She's an outstanding all conference caliber player.
Her name is Cece Eleko.
And um I told Cece that I was going to be uh talking to you and I asked her to come upwith a couple questions for me because she's really interested in your career trajectory.
So the following two questions about Three on Three are from her.
(26:31):
um
She's going to love that.
um The first one is just about, obviously you were five on five before you were three onthree.
Is there sort of a specific mental adjustment that you have to make going from five onfive to three on three?
(26:51):
Like, do you kind of take off your five on five hat and put on your three on three hat?
And, you know, what does that look like?
Yes, yes, definitely.
think, well, it depends on what kind of player, what kind of your style is.
I was much more rigid and in the box as a five-on-five player due to like different teamsand how I had to adjust.
I just became more rigid in structure.
(27:11):
um But it's a very uh open game.
And uh one of the adjustments is that like in five-on-five, sometimes you're looking for agreat shot.
You pass up the good to get a great shot.
um In 3x3, you don't have time for that.
uh So our first tournament when we played in the women's series in 2019, um basically oneof the organizers from FIBA, she had some pity on us because it was our first tournament.
(27:48):
First time playing together.
right up from the bottom.
And she's like, I need to help you out.
Like you need to shoot way more twos because twos in in 3x3 like it's double one pointshot.
So it just accelerates your ability to get to 21 way faster.
And so we would be looking for, you know, like a great shot when really like taking it,taking it to even if it's like slightly contested or with a quicker pace than maybe you're
(28:17):
used to is a good shot to take because we only have 12 seconds to shoot.
And so we need to take the shots that are open every time.
Like, and so that, that helped me as a player because in fives I was in an overthinkingmindset towards the end of my overseas career.
And like, I wouldn't take the open things.
(28:38):
so three X three kind of like, it was a great timing where I had to get out of my own headand it helped me because that was necessary for the team.
Like I can't be passing up open looks even if I'm missing, like there's just no
capacity to be thinking about the last play.
so even that next play mentality is super important.
(29:00):
So just that transition of being okay missing more shots than you're used to.
Because you just miss, I don't know, I think I miss way more shots than threes because Itake more.
There's just more opportunity for plays and shots to come that it's like, I don't eventhink twice about missing a shot anymore because I don't have time to or energy.
(29:24):
and yeah, a mindset shift of like, is high collaborative in nature.
And so we are coaching ourselves on the court and for our team, we highly value thecharacter of our teammates.
Um, and, um, belief in each other is like what allows us to play our best, play our freestis when there's high trust and belief in all of our strengths.
(29:49):
and that
we have, we all have value to give.
Like there's only three people on the court at the time.
No one's hiding.
And so everyone is a contributor.
And so the like actual belief that everyone can contribute, we can't, you know, I don'tknow if this happens in fives where like, I see this person and like, I don't know if
they'd hit a shot, but like they'd hit a shot, you know, like, I don't know if thathappens anymore, but we all trust each other and we all, you know, like have to
(30:16):
contribute.
um
Collectively as a team our communication needs to be way higher in the court because we'recoaching ourselves.
We need to see the uh And I think this is such a great part of the experience we get todevelop that uh When taking that back to a five-on-five team if you're if you're playing
both like you you develop your IQ where you could you have to strategize as a Player inthe court.
(30:42):
You don't have a coach telling you like This is what's happening
you need to be tuned into what's happening so you can make those tweaks and adjustments ingame.
Yeah, and just requires some humility.
Yeah.
uh
is so interesting to me.
And actually it kind of tees up the next question very well, because you just talked aboutan experience where you stepped on a FIBA 3X3 court for the first time.
(31:08):
Her next question was, let's say I am a five on five hooper and I've never done thisbefore and I'm stepping on a 3X3 court for the first time.
Give me your immediate coaching points, because I can only take in so much and I've neverdone this before.
What would you say?
Oh boy, I'm...
(31:31):
there's a lot.
oh I think tactically, okay, there's tactically and then there's mindset.
okay.
Tactically, the transition game is the most important.
um They're like having plays.
(31:52):
It's so funny.
Like our team has lots of plays and ideas for like, uh like check ball plays.
80 % at least of the game is transition.
And so even though we have like, this would be sweet for a two point play, the majority ofthe game is going to be flow and cohesive nips on the court of principles.
(32:14):
So the game is very principle based, which comes from spives.
There's not like new principles that happen.
There might be slightly different angles.
ah And so this season, our team
Like our, I guess how we're like, we need to be faster was our first thought.
(32:36):
And then the reality was we don't actually need to be faster.
We need to have a greater change of pace.
So we actually need to be slower in some areas and then be fast.
And so um tactically, it's like be efficient in your actions, I'd say.
Proficiency in actions and uh which.
(32:59):
is transition game.
It's the flow of the game is the majority.
And so it's just basketball principles.
Like there's no crazy secrets.
It's basketball principles.
Is that a tactic?
I don't even know.
That's not even helpful.
Sorry, Cece.
ah
(33:19):
I don't, disagree.
feel like that's really helpful.
Cause to me, I think what you're saying is you're stepping into something that's going tohappen a lot faster.
You need to find a way to be efficient without actually speeding yourself up and gettingsloppy.
That's kind of how I interpret what you said.
Jared.
That was good.
You said it a lot more concise than I did.
So that was teamwork.
(33:39):
ah And then mindset wise, ah if you're going from five on three and stepping to three xthree court, ah be okay with things not, be okay with chaos is the mindset that we need to
have.
uh Because there are a lot of things that don't go our way or how we plan.
(34:01):
and we're really learning this as a team still, is like the more we uh can work throughthings and we figure it out, it's like the figure it out mentality of like a defensive, in
five on five, like defensive scramble where there's rotation, rotation, and you just, it'sa scramble.
uh Similar in, because things move so fast and even in a handoff action or a ball screenaction, there is no help side.
(34:28):
Like we don't do help side.
That'd be another tactical point.
Don't help side.
That's a kick out.
It's just you out there.
That's a kick out too waiting to happen.
um But it's definitely a figure it out mentality and being okay with the chaos and knowingyou're capable of figuring things out when things don't go your way.
Biggest mindset shift for sure.
(34:49):
Coming from a structured five on five environment to what's happening?
Like, I feel like I'm running around.
It's okay.
You're actually capable of figuring it out even if it's not clear.
almost embarrassed that I've never considered this until you just said what you said outloud.
It's almost like 3X3, even though it's organized and there's tournaments, they've found away to kind of capture the essence of chaotic old school three on three pickup basketball,
(35:21):
which is you got to communicate your way through it.
You got to be able to embrace the fact you're going to probably miss a lot more.
And it's oh.
This makes me like it even more.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
Cece is going to be pumped.
My last three on three related question for you is actually on the subject of what youjust brought up.
You talked a little bit about two man actions.
(35:42):
um If I put on my extremely dorky tactical coach's hat, I value three on three so muchbecause when you do get set up into stuff, it's almost always a two man read.
Either you have the ball as a point forward,
and there's action away from you, or you're setting a screen and you're part of theaction.
(36:04):
So you are constantly making decisions as either the passer leading to the next shot orthe screener leading to the next read.
I have to imagine you are drilling these things in training and practice at a rate thatthe average person can't imagine.
Would you say that's the case?
(36:27):
Probably, you know when I watched Five on Five, my first thought is like, that is such aninefficient action.
Like they didn't even get anything off of that.
There's more people on the court, which is the factor involved.
But because like there's no help side, like it's less of a consideration in the actualaction is because there's not like a third, a second line defense that the passer's
(36:51):
reading or the person coming out the screen is reading.
uh
So it's slightly different in that aspect, but decision making is happening all the time,which I think it's it's fun that way because, you know, there comes an extent to where
it's like, we didn't get the perfect read.
Like if we're perfectionists here, we could be like, but we didn't really have them on ourback.
(37:16):
were just on our side.
So did we really get open?
So there's like this both and of like making a right read for sure.
and the right decision, but also like, okay, even if it wasn't the 100 % read, like go useyour skills and like get the job done.
Like there's, there won't be back to that.
There won't be a perfect actions all the time.
(37:40):
But we, yeah, that's highly rep is like, is making the least mistakes as possible becauseit's so exposing, especially on defense.
Yeah, building off that because a very, very big pay point for high school athletes that Iwork with is realizing how much work it actually takes to be great at this game.
(38:02):
Right?
And also the understanding to your points earlier that part of being great at this game isrecognizing that there's always something that you can be working on and you're constantly
in the lab.
The last basketball really related thing I wanted to ask you was
Are you comfortable sharing like when you're gearing up for a tournament, what is like aday in your training life look like?
(38:24):
How much time are you doing?
What's the intensity like?
Because I think a lot of these kids don't really understand what it really takes to besomebody in your position.
Yeah, it's interesting because even as, like I've been playing in my city for like mywhole life and even when I was away in college, I'd come back home and get in the gym.
(38:48):
Like I remember Michelle and I would, we must have been in college because we'd come backhome, yeah, it was probably the summers and just like.
find anyone we knew who had open runs is mostly the guys college teams here, sometimes thewomen's team.
And we're just like, can we come?
We just invite ourselves to the men's runs because we're like, we're trying to playbasketball.
(39:11):
Like we wanted to get better and just play.
it wasn't, it wasn't so, I mean, sometimes it was uncomfortable to like go in those spacesand be like, yeah, we're the girls here, but we're pretty good.
So like, we'll hold our own.
And sometimes not, but like we were willing to, to just.
put the work in and we had a desire to like do that because we knew the fruit of, youknow, playing and getting repetitions and even if we weren't the best, whatever it was, it
(39:40):
was still part of the process of being a great player.
And not to like call all the guys here in Edmonton, but sometimes I'm just like, are youtrying to get in the jam?
You know, like what's going on?
Like I know if I had an opportunity to come train with someone.
Like, it's not about me and my caliber of an athlete, but like, people were playing andyou don't want to come, like, train.
(40:07):
Like, it's just confusing to me sometimes because it's a different mindset.
And for sure, people have their own stuff going on, like, totally, totally understand.
But I feel like it's a slightly different mindset where um people don't really get, like,if you want to succeed, how much it's going to require out of you.
And I think it's...
(40:27):
way easier.
This is in life too.
Like it's easier to say like you have these dreams and goals and for that to sound good.
But if that's if that's not truly you're owning that goal or whatever you're trying toachieve like if you don't really own that you're not going to do the steps required to get
there.
So I think there's a couple of things like one could be an athlete um says they have agoal but don't know what's required to get there and so they don't do it.
(40:57):
Or they say they have a goal, but it's really not because they want it.
be for, it looks good, it sounds good, someone else's goal that they're taking on.
And so they're just not motivated to do the steps required.
But yeah, like for training for me now, it looks different than I was like a little 21year old for sure.
(41:19):
But when I'm getting ready to go to a tournament, is, I mean, I'm in strength, strengthand conditioning.
three, four, maybe leading up to tournaments like five times a week doing things and thenleading up to tournaments.
Ideally, I'd be playing threes to some extent.
(41:39):
Sometimes it's twos, know, it's working on that two-man action, two, three times a weekbefore tournaments, ideally.
And then working on my own skills individually like the other couple times a week.
So different seasons for sure, but like...
in the, there's always a period of like refining your skills, maintaining your strength,building your strength, different stuff like that, but I'm never not doing something
(42:07):
because that doesn't make sense with the level I'm playing at.
and to drive home a point you made just in case any young person wants to try to glossover it.
Any opportunity you found to compete and just play basketball, you were trying to do it.
I was trying to do it.
I was trying to do it.
(42:28):
I find that to be extremely reasonable.
And just so you know, uh when you had your beef with Edmonton before, I think a lot ofpeople in America would say to you, don't worry, you can cross off Edmonton and also say
America as a whole.
So very interesting.
(42:48):
Yeah.
it's people's mindset.
Well, on the subject of those people, something that I really admire about, I guess, maybethe current phase that you're in is it seems like you're taking on a bit of a mentorship
role on social media, posting a lot about mindset, posting a lot about attitude and whatit may take to achieve what you want to achieve.
(43:10):
I want to read something that you shared recently, and this is revisiting your next playmentality.
um You shared this and I immediately was like, oh, this is really, really good.
um This is James Clear.
I think the book is Atomic Habits, which is a book I love.
But um the quote is, a surefire way to make a bad situation worse is to continue replayingit in your mind.
(43:37):
The damage is done.
The only thing that matters now is making the best choice given your current position.
Next play.
So for the average high school kid that misses a three and then gets back on defense andall they're thinking about is the missed three and the ball goes flying over their heads
and then somebody makes a layup.
(43:59):
Can you talk to that person about an X play mentality?
Yeah, well, I think I had said this in my post.
Like, I don't remember where I first initially heard this phrase, this concept.
But like I mentioned earlier, like I was in my head a lot and um sometimes to get out ofour own heads and out of our own way, need like, we need a cue.
(44:22):
I think that's psychological.
Like we need a cue to move on.
And for that, but like next play.
connected for me was like, not just think about me in the next play.
Like it was really like, what can I do to help my team in the next play?
Because if I'm still thinking about me, that's the problem.
Like even if it's the same, like same life things that happen, if we're constantlythinking about like how we're lacking and we think that thinking about ourselves more is
(44:52):
going to be the solution.
That's not the solution.
Like we need to change our focus from being our self-focus to others focused to getoutside our own head.
And so
that when I first heard that, that was great for me because I could immediately switchfrom what I was thinking was the mistake I just made into I can recover that and make a
(45:14):
great play in the next play.
I can recover that and not to make up for it, but kind of.
I could do something positive that could already be at the front of my mind moving forwardinstead of the negative thing that I had in my mind.
that just happened.
And so this desire for like, okay, but I want to make up for it.
(45:36):
Therefore I can, let me just try harder, whatever it is, like switch my mindset to beinginstead of me, focus on the team and try to do something good for the team.
think that's a great aspect of sport is we learn so much.
We learned so like, it's such a great training ground for life principles, which is why Italk a lot about it now of like it being these life principles that we don't know we're
(45:59):
learning when we're youth.
when we're like a little young, but that like my eyes are so open to the value that sportscan bring if given the right opportunities and the right coaches to speak into our lives
at those times.
They create really a foundation going forward in life of mindset, of values, of being agreat teammate, being responsible, of showing up, of thinking of yourself less and your
(46:24):
teammates more.
Like there's such, there's so much potential when you're in sports to have goodfoundations.
It doesn't always come because sometimes it's not great coaches.
Sometimes it's your own self that like gets in the way of you having a great experience.
ah But like next play, it's still stuck with me and I don't even know where I heard it.
(46:45):
And it's funny because when I posted that, I was thinking mostly of like of life stuffthat's happening for me in this season.
uh At once I only thought about that phrase in sports, which is very helpful.
And now like
thinking about that in relationships and things that happen in life.
Like, it's the same principle and how great we can just have this short phrase that like,let me just take that and apply it to this part of my life.
(47:12):
it's great.
Shout out to James.
I really, really appreciate you sharing this.
And I feel like given what you just said, it kind of teased me up to ask the last questionI wanted to ask you.
And I'm gonna apologize in advance.
I have done my best to not ask you any trite, dorky, journalist questions interviewing anOlympian to this point.
(47:33):
But my last question is definitely a trite, dorky, journalist question, and I apologize inadvance.
um
I imagine that even though the work is the same, that everything is hitting a littledifferent right now because you're approaching the end of your professional career.
And I'm wondering if you've sort of thought it all about what your legacy is as anathlete.
(48:01):
And I guess my question to you based on that is, for a young person that learns about youthrough folklore and watches your film or something like,
What would you want your legacy to be for those people?
Interesting question, Jared.
I haven't thought about that.
um
Yeah, I haven't necessarily thought about what do I want people to say about me down theroad because I usually am not like, it's okay, you don't gotta talk about me.
(48:35):
It's okay.
I could tell, mean, everything you've said so far this interview also leads me to believethat you're just the constant teammate, giving your teammates credit for everything and
talking to everything.
So that's one of the reasons why I wanted to ask this is like, you know, what shouldpeople remember about you, the athlete and competitor?
Well, for me, when you ask that, ah I would say it's that...
(49:00):
ah
that who I was was ah more than an athlete, to be quite honest.
I definitely went through a season of an athlete being my whole identity.
And that is a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves as young folks, and adults do thistoo in anything we do for work, for jobs, whatever it is, is we make the what we do and
(49:29):
the most visible thing of the what's that we do.
identity and what happens with that is that when that doesn't go our way or whenperformance is like not great because our identity is on the external conditions and uh
the results it creates like a lot of turbulence you know within ourselves and so my hopeis that my my legacy would be like uh that who I was as a person is was consistent
(50:01):
as an athlete, it was in my relationships, as it was uh even as going to tournaments.
I like connecting with people, I adding value to people wherever I go.
ah And that the excellence that I desired for my life was conveyed through the hard workand effort that I put in in basketball, just as much as being a great teammate, as
(50:24):
connecting with people, as the next things that I do in life.
I hope...
My legacy is consistent, consistently pursuing excellence and my God-given potential.
I just hope it's consistent across the board no matter what I do is that I give my bestand make other people feel valued.
(50:47):
am so grateful that you chose to answer that the way you did.
um I think a theme for lot of the things that you shared over the course of this chat isthat they're addressing topics that a lot of athletes are trying to navigate right now,
especially with the social media generation.
A lot of these kids are showing up in college being like, who am I besides a basketballplayer?
(51:13):
What's my actual identity?
So I thank you very much for sharing.
not only what you just shared, but also some of your stories and anecdotes about some ofyour professional transitions, some of your collegiate transitions, the frustration that
came with it and how you navigated it.
um I would say, given your mission, this was a tremendous value add for my listeners andI'm so grateful that we got to have the kind of conversation that we had.
(51:40):
um Thank you so much for being a part of it and I really sincerely look forward tocheering you on.
through the home stretch of this should be really exciting.
Thanks so much, Jared.
Thanks for having me on.
Thanks for all your questions and insights from yourself as well.
It's been a pleasure.
Catherine Plouffe, fresh off a European road trip for basketball.
I am so excited to see you and thank you so much for being here.
Thanks for having me on, Jared.
Excited for our conversation.
So right now, I feel like we are in a peak moment of three on threes sort of popularity inits introduction to the basketball community.
(00:25):
And when I think about three on three basketball, a huge thing that kind of jumps out atme is the versatility needed to be successful, regardless of whatever your five on five
position is on paper.
You have to be able to have a bunch of different skills.
And I feel like when it comes to versatility, especially on the women's side of three onthree, I would point your film out specifically to a lot of people.
(00:54):
So my first question for you is, was there sort of a point where you acknowledged as aplayer that like your versatility was a huge strength of what you did?
That's a good question.
Well, I guess how I landed and launched into 3x3 was ah an accumulation of differentevents where I was leaving 5 on 5 national team, had an opportunity with my sister and one
(01:24):
of our teammates Paige Crozin to start the team.
And so it wasn't necessarily a strategic thought out.
My skill set is going to be a great fit for 3x3.
um There was just a
confidence and excitement of like, let's try this sport and see what could happen.
Was I confident in my abilities overall as a player?
(01:46):
Yeah, but I didn't see uh really uh the strengths come to play until I started playing andsaw like, okay, wow, like, not only myself, but my teammates, we have a great uh
combination of skill sets that allows us to be really successful in the game.
So that's fun when this when the skills and the
(02:07):
different strengths combined to create a great product and finish on the court.
Like it's a blessing for sure.
as a follow-up to that, you know, you've been a competitive athlete for a really longtime, forgetting about status, like whether you're pro, collegiate, amateur, you've been
playing the game for so long.
(02:28):
Is there a certain feeling that sort of clicks when you start playing three on three andyou're like, whoa, this is, this happens to like really expose a lot of the best parts of
my skillset.
Like what's that feeling like?
you know what?
is...
I'm not sure.
It is such a creative um game because it's new strategy.
(02:52):
And I think that's an exciting part for me as a player is that, I mean, I don't play fiveon five anymore.
I just play 3x3.
And so the transition into 3x3 is like, wow, we can do something really new and cool andstrategize in a different way to think differently about the game, about how we use the
court.
about how we use our strengths.
(03:13):
And we really, as a team, like have, and I think the sport in itself, because you have tobe so versatile, like you said, uh is that it like allows for so much freedom to develop.
And that's something that's always been exciting for me is like, okay, cool.
Like where can I grow as a person, as a player?
And uh that can be, you know, like it's very exposing, like you said, of your strengths,also your weaknesses.
(03:39):
I'm
You get exposed.
And I think like players who play, there's a quality of like, if you are humble and knowthat you'll get exposed, but you know your strengths, you're willing to work at some of
the gaps to fill uh for your team, it can be like a really fun uh launch into a new typeof player and a new type of uh style of basketball.
(04:05):
On the subject of that style, you mentioned your teammates.
One of the teammates being your sister.
And one of the really unique things about the three on three game is the old schoolbackyard component of I can kick out the ball to my sister past the three point line.
And as soon as it's there, she could just fire it back to me.
(04:27):
So I'm used to telling people at the five on five level, like you don't have time to sulkafter a missed shot.
You have to get home and transition.
That's at least four real time seconds.
I have clips of you on YouTube lined up of outlining the ball and getting it back to scorein less than one second.
(04:47):
Can you speak to that speed change and what it's like?
Because you just talked about limitations being exposed.
I imagine that transition point is a huge part of it.
Yeah, that came with time and repetitions for sure of like, honestly, what's the best waywe can conserve our energy because we're so exhausted when we're playing.
(05:07):
And so it's like the easiest thing sometimes is the most necessary thing to do becauseit's a sprint and a marathon.
we're, like it is the most tiring sport I've ever played ever.
Like hands down, there's no five on five game that made me more tired than a three X threetournament.
um
And it's like the conservation of energy, the ways to be more efficient.
(05:31):
We always are trying to look at like, how can we be the most efficient in the least timepossible?
Or even getting a positive result out of a play or action on the court.
We're looking to see how can we capitalize on fewer actions to get a shot, to get a greatshot.
So that's like the strategy involved.
(05:52):
And the first quickest way is to have a transition and right back in.
China, Team China on the women's side, their whole strategy last year, it's a little bitdifferent now because they have a different, um I think they have a slightly different
roster, but they were the biggest team across their roster in height.
And one of their main strategies was just kick it back out, already have a seal and postup so that they can kick it back in.
(06:18):
that was, probably they got 10 points a game on doing that.
So yeah.
Is it fair to say then, because I feel like a lot of people listening, this is going to betheir intro to understanding 3X3.
Is it fair to say that one of the most valuable things then in 3X3 is a defensive rebound?
(06:42):
Yes, defensive rebound and a quick transition for sure.
And it is so interesting because when I um play with um local guys here to like bring themin, know, train with them, build a bigger group to train with because we need more people
playing 3X3 to train 3X3.
(07:03):
And so that's the biggest difference of playing, um the speed of the game is
They don't know yet the speed of the game of transition and how quick it can move on apass.
Obviously it's quicker than a dribble.
um But it's so fun.
You don't have time to think your shots looking nice and going in because the other team'salready playing transition.
(07:25):
So that would be a key to the game for sure.
Well, we're gonna revisit this later, and I look forward to asking you about it, but itsounds like a next play mentality is mission critical to your game.
Yeah, I look forward to exploring that more shortly.
um When you and I first spoke in trying to set this up, I shared with you a piece of datathat I got from college coaches that talked about positions in basketball and how the
(07:56):
average high school kid thinks they're getting recruited.
play a certain position, but the average college coach does not think that's going to betheir actual position through their college career, that there's really no expectation.
And you responded almost immediately, did you know I was recruited to Marquette at adifferent position than I played?
And I had no idea.
(08:17):
I would love it if you could share a little bit of that experience because there are somany athletes that are confronted with that ask from a coaching staff and don't always
know what to make of it.
Yeah, so um when I was growing up, Michelle and I played different positions.
I was usually a few inches looking back at photos.
(08:38):
I was like, wow, I was quite a bit shorter than her.
So which is so surprising because now I outgrew her.
um at the time she was like the four, five forward.
I was a little bit smaller.
I was like the one, two, three.
So we'd cover all the positions together in whatever role we had to play.
And
(08:58):
And I think a couple of things went into that is that our mindset from a young age was wehad a couple of different coaches who allowed us to play with with them on their older
team.
So we were quite young playing with older girls.
And so we were not the biggest fish in the pond.
We didn't have a choice.
Like I prefer to do X, Y, Z on the court.
We were just there to show up to learn and to fulfill whatever the team needed.
(09:24):
And so that was a big foundational.
was that we didn't have preferences.
We just wanted to play basketball and learn and grow and be better players and have anopportunity to play.
And then in high school, like we did quite well.
had Iron Sharpen's Iron.
I wouldn't be the player I am without her for sure.
(09:45):
And we had each other going into different situations.
We were younger, we were smaller, whatever it was.
And so we built a skill set of learning, being the smaller players.
going back to our team who were maybe our same age and we're the taller players.
So we developed this skill set of uh versatility, I think, because of those opportunities.
uh But same thing in high school, which was the most competitive.
(10:11):
We played on our provincial teams and on that team, like I had a different role than shedid and whatnot, but it was always kind of like what the team needed.
I was ready to do.
And so in...
In high school, you know what?
Looking back, I don't even know what my coaches told me what position they'd recruit meas.
Like maybe a three.
I'm really unsure because in high school I played like a one, two, three.
(10:35):
Yeah.
And when I went to Marquette, we had um a senior.
think she was a sixth year senior at that point because she had a couple of injuries.
She was the center.
She got injured again at the beginning of the season and.
You know, my mindset going in was not of high expectations that I'd play or that I, youknow, already earned a whatever spot.
(11:00):
Like I was, I just knew I was going there to work hard and learn and like play basketballand whatever the team needed, I would do.
Like I really, I wasn't, I knew I was coming into a bigger pond.
Like I was going to be a small fish.
Everyone who was going to a high level university or even, you know, like post high schoolcareer.
(11:21):
you're going to be a smaller fish in the pond, so to speak, for most cases, because inhigh school you stand out, you're going to go to a next team where there's a bunch of high
school standouts.
um So I went there and um there was injuries on my team and I'd never played a postposition before, ever.
Like I would never play back to the basket.
(11:42):
I was always a guard and my coach was like, okay, KP, that's what they called me.
They're like,
you're going to be the starting center.
And I was like, excuse me.
Like I was like, are you sure?
Like, are you sure?
Like I have never played this position before.
(12:02):
There's a couple older girls on my team who maybe one who like could have been a, couldhave, she was more of a forward.
But they decided I was like the tallest person and I was willing and I worked my butt off.
So I was there and I got this opportunity.
I would say I was the hardest worker in definitely my freshman class of like just willingto put the work in.
(12:24):
uh And, you know, had a great foundation of principles and values from different coacheswho, you know, you show up, you work hard.
uh I have respect for my coaches.
So was like, whatever you ask of me, I will do to the best of my abilities.
I was trying to be excellent in whatever I was doing.
And so the opportunity came and I was like, okay, if that's what the team needs.
(12:47):
I will learn that position.
Was it hard?
Heck yes.
There was lots of tears.
Lots of tears.
Lots of like, okay, go work on a side basket on your skills because we're going to needyou to be better to come back to the team.
So it was so, it was super frustrating.
Not gonna lie.
um But was it valuable for my overall development as a player?
(13:08):
A thousand percent.
And so I think maybe sometimes like in youth and even high school and
college careers, like what is the ultimate goal for you as a player?
Like is it sticking to what you know to be comfortable, what you want to do?
Or could an opportunity arise where maybe it's different and uncomfortable, but it couldopen doors to whatever the team needs.
(13:35):
I think you need a level of humility to succeed as a player and especially as a teambecause it is a team sport, it's a team environment where
You you might be asked by your coaches or your teammates to do something that's notcomfortable for you to do or not that you want to do.
You know, like I know players want to, I don't know if players want to be point guardsthese days, like maybe.
(14:02):
Yeah, shooting guard.
The shooting guard.
But like to be a true point guard, it's like you're a distributor.
Do players want to be the distributor and have like high level passing and high level IQ?
I know if that's glamorized these days, so you see, I see less of it for sure, of greatpassers, but that could also be a huge role where you could stand out if you're trying to
(14:24):
be excellent in that.
So, that answer your question?
I don't know.
percent and it also it also leaves me with an interesting thought because I mean there isno point of either my college experience or my professional career in coaching where I
could have predicted to you where I ended up five years from that time.
(14:46):
Is there any moment as you're going through this experience at Marquette and for thelisteners who might not know this the thing that happens for you during your experience at
Marquette is
you become better and better at a forward position, which also unlocks the trust with yourcoaching staff.
And then you get to do some of your guard stuff too.
And the next thing you know, you're shooting threes, you're dishing the ball, you're doingall these things.
(15:11):
Is there any moment where you're thinking to yourself, I'm gonna just become like a pointforward professionally now.
Did you have that vision even remotely because of this?
ah I didn't have like, it's funny enough, like I didn't have uh a dream years in advanceto say like, that's why I'm doing things.
(15:31):
It was honestly like just, and my coaches really, like I struggle a lot with like beingconfident even who I was as a player and the skillset I had.
uh I remember the first, my freshman year.
So I'd been starting as center and I was, know, like my first year developing all thesenew skills.
I still had a lot of skill sets from previous.
(15:54):
It's not like they just lost them.
They were just being used differently.
And I remember in our, we went to the NCAA tournament and we played Tennessee at Tennesseein the second round.
So it was if we won, we were going to the Sweet 16.
And um we lost.
I forget by how many, but I remember my coach saying after to me like, oh, like basicallythe message being like, you're a great player if you like.
(16:20):
play like it, like we want you to build the confidence because you could be great.
But the message was like, if you like score 10 more points, we would have won.
And, you know, like the heart she was trying to say like, you can do more, like you are agreat player, like, go out and be a great player.
But for me, I had, uh I always had a struggle of like, okay, how much like, how much do Ihave to hold back?
(16:45):
I don't know, I had this hold back mentality, which is
you know, like who knows what I could have done.
I don't know.
I had a great, great career and really grateful, but that's been the, the like thorn oflike, okay, just go for it.
Like be all, all, in.
I think sometimes we think we're all in and going after something and pushing ourselves,but I feel like there's always an extra level of like.
(17:09):
and then what?
know, like a little bit more.
want to share this with you because you'd have no way of knowing this before having thisconversation with me.
What you just said out loud is one of the biggest frustration points that currentscholarship level coaches bring up to me.
That they get a sense that their players are holding themselves back.
(17:35):
what I'm hearing, at least anecdotally, is fear of letting their teammates down.
Am I too selfish if I take five or six more shots a game?
If I try to attempt this path that no one else on my team makes and it goes wrong, have Iput this team in a horrible position?
And my messaging back has always been like, well, we'll never know if you don't do it.
(18:00):
Yeah, totally.
So that's, I'm actually really, really grateful that you shared this because I thinkthere's a lot of young athletes, especially on the women's side that kind of have that
fear of like, what if, what happens if I unlock that next gear?
Yeah, yeah, isn't that interesting?
I think it's so fascinating.
I like the deeper dives of like, why do we think certain things?
(18:22):
Like what makes us, what creates our mindset and perspective on how we view the world, howwe view ourselves in the world and like, how do we course correct?
Because for me, when I even say that out loud, I'm like, okay, well, there's that fear.
But if I had...
uh
This we can go back.
(18:42):
These obviously are things and patterns that come back from like how we're raised.
So parenting is a thing, it's like comes from we have a, we know we have trust in ourcoaches, our teammates to some extent, but like a big part is, is our coaches.
We trust them.
We know we're loved, we're valued, regardless of how we perform.
That is, that's the biggest foundation of a player trusting themselves to go out and trylike to go out and like give a little bit extra.
(19:11):
Knowing that like, okay, their teammates might have something to say, but like, that'sokay.
You gotta know your vision and your values and how you wanna show up as a person, as aplayer.
That is very important to know internally so that when you don't perform, when differentthings come up, maybe when your teammates are mad, like you still know how you showed up,
(19:35):
that you know you're living according to your values and that's most important thing.
I wish more young people understood how important that is at that age.
Right?
It's a different thing to be in our thirties and be like, this is really now we get it.
I don't think a lot of younger people realize when we give them advice, we're not actuallysaying do what I did.
(20:01):
We're saying do what I didn't.
And maybe you'll overcome this obstacle quicker than I did.
So I think it's really interesting that you said that.
So for you, like when you hear that, like what is, what do you think is the solution?
if young athletes are feeling like that and it's not just words, like how does that lookin action of how to help an athlete overcome that?
(20:25):
can tell you what mine is and I think my answer will be a little different than othercoaches because my background before I got into coaching was student affairs
administration and counseling.
So I always try to empathetically listen first.
Like long before we're on the court coming up with a solution, there's a 20 to 30 minutesit down in my office and we're just talking it out and trying to flesh out like.
(20:53):
what does your next level actually look like?
And then my immediate next thing is making sure that they understand that a realistic wayof getting to the next level is not furiously cannonballing into the deep end of the pool,
right?
So an example I would give is if I have a right-hand dominant forward who is reallycapable
(21:19):
of going left and mid-range jump shooting, but has been kind of afraid to bust it out ingames.
We end that conversation.
We watch a little bit of film.
And then our workout is very basic things to get her left hand going.
Not, I hate saying it this way, but like not what you see on Instagram.
(21:40):
Not 45 minutes of dribbling through a twister, excuse me, dribbling through a twisterboard.
or doing all these crazy things, it's more, hey, let's fake right, drop step, counterleft.
And let's get like 10 makes.
And then once you get your 10 makes, I'm gonna hit you with a pad a little bit so you canfeel really good about it.
(22:01):
And a lot of times, I guess it would fall into the category, Catherine, of trying togenerate confidence in a controlled environment.
But then the next step and the way we end it is, I'm going to celebrate in game you tryingit.
not the result.
So I actually have a very vintage memory of a kid who like the team understood what shewas trying to do for the team and how she would grow.
(22:30):
And even if she didn't do it successfully, the talk on the team would say, great decision,great decision, great decision.
So even if she was running back on defense and upset about it, her mind was like, okay,I'm helping my teammates.
didn't go well, but I'm helping my team.
That would probably be the best example I can give you because I'm, I think you'dunderstand this, especially with your own experience.
(22:54):
How helpful am I if I just break your confidence, if I make it worse?
Yeah, not.
uh So, yeah, I, you know, and I would say as a coach, the moments I regret the most arethe moments where I got too heated or like too emotional in the moment.
And I did that to someone.
And then, of course, like that night I'm at home being like, why did I do that?
(23:16):
Yeah, totally.
So, does that answer it for you?
Like, does that give a vision of, yeah.
So actually now, let's flip it for you.
You know, you are trying to pick up these skills to be a forward.
We know kind of what your guard skills are.
(23:36):
What are some of the moments where you started to feel better and more comfortable aboutthat skill set?
Like, what did that work look like for you?
Uh, pfft, man.
that's a good question.
I honestly don't remember specifically, I think just getting comfortable having my back tothe basket.
(23:58):
It's a different, it's just different if you're used to facing and now you're back to thebasket and then you have to square up and ah face the basket.
Just slightly different like tactical footwork things.
ah Even finishing like slightly different, I don't know, at the rim.
(24:18):
Just lots of repetitions, honestly.
um And did I brick a lot of laps?
Yeah, sure did.
I remember having anxiety of like, I was a great runner, like transition.
I would just be gone and my point guard would pass me the ball and transition.
1-0.
And I remember there was a time when my coaches and everyone on the bench probably heldtheir breath as it was just me in the room because I just started off like, bricking, just
(24:45):
anxiety around like, my gosh, one on zero.
I over thought things so much.
So funny.
Even through my professional career, like I remember I was very aware of um my coachesreactions and um their emotions.
Like I was just in tune and so when they were anxious I would be anxious.
(25:05):
like, you know, there probably was a lot of internal assumptions too about like wanting topeople please and all this kind of stuff.
But so funny.
Different skill set for sure.
I think that's really interesting because what you just said in my opinion is not just animportant message for players It's an important message for coaches because people would
(25:26):
know you as being objectively great in the three-on-three game and for you to say likejust so you know I'm also emotionally in tune to what's going on around me even now I
think that's an important thing for coaches to keep and internalize as well.
I wanna before we talk about really young
Catherine Palufan, give some advice to high school kids going through the recruitingprocess.
(25:49):
I really want to break down uh three on three a little bit more because the game itself isso interesting to me.
m I want to start by sharing that I was involved recently with the recruiting processbefore I got out of coaching of a Canadian forward.
She's currently at Eastern Michigan.
(26:10):
She's an outstanding all conference caliber player.
Her name is Cece Eleko.
And um I told Cece that I was going to be uh talking to you and I asked her to come upwith a couple questions for me because she's really interested in your career trajectory.
So the following two questions about Three on Three are from her.
(26:31):
um
She's going to love that.
um The first one is just about, obviously you were five on five before you were three onthree.
Is there sort of a specific mental adjustment that you have to make going from five onfive to three on three?
(26:51):
Like, do you kind of take off your five on five hat and put on your three on three hat?
And, you know, what does that look like?
Yes, yes, definitely.
think, well, it depends on what kind of player, what kind of your style is.
I was much more rigid and in the box as a five-on-five player due to like different teamsand how I had to adjust.
I just became more rigid in structure.
(27:11):
um But it's a very uh open game.
And uh one of the adjustments is that like in five-on-five, sometimes you're looking for agreat shot.
You pass up the good to get a great shot.
um In 3x3, you don't have time for that.
uh So our first tournament when we played in the women's series in 2019, um basically oneof the organizers from FIBA, she had some pity on us because it was our first tournament.
(27:48):
First time playing together.
right up from the bottom.
And she's like, I need to help you out.
Like you need to shoot way more twos because twos in in 3x3 like it's double one pointshot.
So it just accelerates your ability to get to 21 way faster.
And so we would be looking for, you know, like a great shot when really like taking it,taking it to even if it's like slightly contested or with a quicker pace than maybe you're
(28:17):
used to is a good shot to take because we only have 12 seconds to shoot.
And so we need to take the shots that are open every time.
Like, and so that, that helped me as a player because in fives I was in an overthinkingmindset towards the end of my overseas career.
And like, I wouldn't take the open things.
(28:38):
so three X three kind of like, it was a great timing where I had to get out of my own headand it helped me because that was necessary for the team.
Like I can't be passing up open looks even if I'm missing, like there's just no
capacity to be thinking about the last play.
so even that next play mentality is super important.
(29:00):
So just that transition of being okay missing more shots than you're used to.
Because you just miss, I don't know, I think I miss way more shots than threes because Itake more.
There's just more opportunity for plays and shots to come that it's like, I don't eventhink twice about missing a shot anymore because I don't have time to or energy.
(29:24):
and yeah, a mindset shift of like, is high collaborative in nature.
And so we are coaching ourselves on the court and for our team, we highly value thecharacter of our teammates.
Um, and, um, belief in each other is like what allows us to play our best, play our freestis when there's high trust and belief in all of our strengths.
(29:49):
and that
we have, we all have value to give.
Like there's only three people on the court at the time.
No one's hiding.
And so everyone is a contributor.
And so the like actual belief that everyone can contribute, we can't, you know, I don'tknow if this happens in fives where like, I see this person and like, I don't know if
they'd hit a shot, but like they'd hit a shot, you know, like, I don't know if thathappens anymore, but we all trust each other and we all, you know, like have to
(30:16):
contribute.
um
Collectively as a team our communication needs to be way higher in the court because we'recoaching ourselves.
We need to see the uh And I think this is such a great part of the experience we get todevelop that uh When taking that back to a five-on-five team if you're if you're playing
both like you you develop your IQ where you could you have to strategize as a Player inthe court.
(30:42):
You don't have a coach telling you like This is what's happening
you need to be tuned into what's happening so you can make those tweaks and adjustments ingame.
Yeah, and just requires some humility.
Yeah.
uh
is so interesting to me.
And actually it kind of tees up the next question very well, because you just talked aboutan experience where you stepped on a FIBA 3X3 court for the first time.
(31:08):
Her next question was, let's say I am a five on five hooper and I've never done thisbefore and I'm stepping on a 3X3 court for the first time.
Give me your immediate coaching points, because I can only take in so much and I've neverdone this before.
What would you say?
Oh boy, I'm...
(31:31):
there's a lot.
oh I think tactically, okay, there's tactically and then there's mindset.
okay.
Tactically, the transition game is the most important.
um They're like having plays.
(31:52):
It's so funny.
Like our team has lots of plays and ideas for like, uh like check ball plays.
80 % at least of the game is transition.
And so even though we have like, this would be sweet for a two point play, the majority ofthe game is going to be flow and cohesive nips on the court of principles.
(32:14):
So the game is very principle based, which comes from spives.
There's not like new principles that happen.
There might be slightly different angles.
ah And so this season, our team
Like our, I guess how we're like, we need to be faster was our first thought.
(32:36):
And then the reality was we don't actually need to be faster.
We need to have a greater change of pace.
So we actually need to be slower in some areas and then be fast.
And so um tactically, it's like be efficient in your actions, I'd say.
Proficiency in actions and uh which.
(32:59):
is transition game.
It's the flow of the game is the majority.
And so it's just basketball principles.
Like there's no crazy secrets.
It's basketball principles.
Is that a tactic?
I don't even know.
That's not even helpful.
Sorry, Cece.
ah
(33:19):
I don't, disagree.
feel like that's really helpful.
Cause to me, I think what you're saying is you're stepping into something that's going tohappen a lot faster.
You need to find a way to be efficient without actually speeding yourself up and gettingsloppy.
That's kind of how I interpret what you said.
Jared.
That was good.
You said it a lot more concise than I did.
So that was teamwork.
(33:39):
ah And then mindset wise, ah if you're going from five on three and stepping to three xthree court, ah be okay with things not, be okay with chaos is the mindset that we need to
have.
uh Because there are a lot of things that don't go our way or how we plan.
(34:01):
and we're really learning this as a team still, is like the more we uh can work throughthings and we figure it out, it's like the figure it out mentality of like a defensive, in
five on five, like defensive scramble where there's rotation, rotation, and you just, it'sa scramble.
uh Similar in, because things move so fast and even in a handoff action or a ball screenaction, there is no help side.
(34:28):
Like we don't do help side.
That'd be another tactical point.
Don't help side.
That's a kick out.
It's just you out there.
That's a kick out too waiting to happen.
um But it's definitely a figure it out mentality and being okay with the chaos and knowingyou're capable of figuring things out when things don't go your way.
Biggest mindset shift for sure.
(34:49):
Coming from a structured five on five environment to what's happening?
Like, I feel like I'm running around.
It's okay.
You're actually capable of figuring it out even if it's not clear.
almost embarrassed that I've never considered this until you just said what you said outloud.
It's almost like 3X3, even though it's organized and there's tournaments, they've found away to kind of capture the essence of chaotic old school three on three pickup basketball,
(35:21):
which is you got to communicate your way through it.
You got to be able to embrace the fact you're going to probably miss a lot more.
And it's oh.
This makes me like it even more.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
Cece is going to be pumped.
My last three on three related question for you is actually on the subject of what youjust brought up.
You talked a little bit about two man actions.
(35:42):
um If I put on my extremely dorky tactical coach's hat, I value three on three so muchbecause when you do get set up into stuff, it's almost always a two man read.
Either you have the ball as a point forward,
and there's action away from you, or you're setting a screen and you're part of theaction.
(36:04):
So you are constantly making decisions as either the passer leading to the next shot orthe screener leading to the next read.
I have to imagine you are drilling these things in training and practice at a rate thatthe average person can't imagine.
Would you say that's the case?
(36:27):
Probably, you know when I watched Five on Five, my first thought is like, that is such aninefficient action.
Like they didn't even get anything off of that.
There's more people on the court, which is the factor involved.
But because like there's no help side, like it's less of a consideration in the actualaction is because there's not like a third, a second line defense that the passer's
(36:51):
reading or the person coming out the screen is reading.
uh
So it's slightly different in that aspect, but decision making is happening all the time,which I think it's it's fun that way because, you know, there comes an extent to where
it's like, we didn't get the perfect read.
Like if we're perfectionists here, we could be like, but we didn't really have them on ourback.
(37:16):
were just on our side.
So did we really get open?
So there's like this both and of like making a right read for sure.
and the right decision, but also like, okay, even if it wasn't the 100 % read, like go useyour skills and like get the job done.
Like there's, there won't be back to that.
There won't be a perfect actions all the time.
(37:40):
But we, yeah, that's highly rep is like, is making the least mistakes as possible becauseit's so exposing, especially on defense.
Yeah, building off that because a very, very big pay point for high school athletes that Iwork with is realizing how much work it actually takes to be great at this game.
(38:02):
Right?
And also the understanding to your points earlier that part of being great at this game isrecognizing that there's always something that you can be working on and you're constantly
in the lab.
The last basketball really related thing I wanted to ask you was
Are you comfortable sharing like when you're gearing up for a tournament, what is like aday in your training life look like?
(38:24):
How much time are you doing?
What's the intensity like?
Because I think a lot of these kids don't really understand what it really takes to besomebody in your position.
Yeah, it's interesting because even as, like I've been playing in my city for like mywhole life and even when I was away in college, I'd come back home and get in the gym.
(38:48):
Like I remember Michelle and I would, we must have been in college because we'd come backhome, yeah, it was probably the summers and just like.
find anyone we knew who had open runs is mostly the guys college teams here, sometimes thewomen's team.
And we're just like, can we come?
We just invite ourselves to the men's runs because we're like, we're trying to playbasketball.
(39:11):
Like we wanted to get better and just play.
it wasn't, it wasn't so, I mean, sometimes it was uncomfortable to like go in those spacesand be like, yeah, we're the girls here, but we're pretty good.
So like, we'll hold our own.
And sometimes not, but like we were willing to, to just.
put the work in and we had a desire to like do that because we knew the fruit of, youknow, playing and getting repetitions and even if we weren't the best, whatever it was, it
(39:40):
was still part of the process of being a great player.
And not to like call all the guys here in Edmonton, but sometimes I'm just like, are youtrying to get in the jam?
You know, like what's going on?
Like I know if I had an opportunity to come train with someone.
Like, it's not about me and my caliber of an athlete, but like, people were playing andyou don't want to come, like, train.
(40:07):
Like, it's just confusing to me sometimes because it's a different mindset.
And for sure, people have their own stuff going on, like, totally, totally understand.
But I feel like it's a slightly different mindset where um people don't really get, like,if you want to succeed, how much it's going to require out of you.
And I think it's...
(40:27):
way easier.
This is in life too.
Like it's easier to say like you have these dreams and goals and for that to sound good.
But if that's if that's not truly you're owning that goal or whatever you're trying toachieve like if you don't really own that you're not going to do the steps required to get
there.
So I think there's a couple of things like one could be an athlete um says they have agoal but don't know what's required to get there and so they don't do it.
(40:57):
Or they say they have a goal, but it's really not because they want it.
be for, it looks good, it sounds good, someone else's goal that they're taking on.
And so they're just not motivated to do the steps required.
But yeah, like for training for me now, it looks different than I was like a little 21year old for sure.
(41:19):
But when I'm getting ready to go to a tournament, is, I mean, I'm in strength, strengthand conditioning.
three, four, maybe leading up to tournaments like five times a week doing things and thenleading up to tournaments.
Ideally, I'd be playing threes to some extent.
(41:39):
Sometimes it's twos, know, it's working on that two-man action, two, three times a weekbefore tournaments, ideally.
And then working on my own skills individually like the other couple times a week.
So different seasons for sure, but like...
in the, there's always a period of like refining your skills, maintaining your strength,building your strength, different stuff like that, but I'm never not doing something
(42:07):
because that doesn't make sense with the level I'm playing at.
and to drive home a point you made just in case any young person wants to try to glossover it.
Any opportunity you found to compete and just play basketball, you were trying to do it.
I was trying to do it.
I was trying to do it.
(42:28):
I find that to be extremely reasonable.
And just so you know, uh when you had your beef with Edmonton before, I think a lot ofpeople in America would say to you, don't worry, you can cross off Edmonton and also say
America as a whole.
So very interesting.
(42:48):
Yeah.
it's people's mindset.
Well, on the subject of those people, something that I really admire about, I guess, maybethe current phase that you're in is it seems like you're taking on a bit of a mentorship
role on social media, posting a lot about mindset, posting a lot about attitude and whatit may take to achieve what you want to achieve.
(43:10):
I want to read something that you shared recently, and this is revisiting your next playmentality.
um You shared this and I immediately was like, oh, this is really, really good.
um This is James Clear.
I think the book is Atomic Habits, which is a book I love.
But um the quote is, a surefire way to make a bad situation worse is to continue replayingit in your mind.
(43:37):
The damage is done.
The only thing that matters now is making the best choice given your current position.
Next play.
So for the average high school kid that misses a three and then gets back on defense andall they're thinking about is the missed three and the ball goes flying over their heads
and then somebody makes a layup.
(43:59):
Can you talk to that person about an X play mentality?
Yeah, well, I think I had said this in my post.
Like, I don't remember where I first initially heard this phrase, this concept.
But like I mentioned earlier, like I was in my head a lot and um sometimes to get out ofour own heads and out of our own way, need like, we need a cue.
(44:22):
I think that's psychological.
Like we need a cue to move on.
And for that, but like next play.
connected for me was like, not just think about me in the next play.
Like it was really like, what can I do to help my team in the next play?
Because if I'm still thinking about me, that's the problem.
Like even if it's the same, like same life things that happen, if we're constantlythinking about like how we're lacking and we think that thinking about ourselves more is
(44:52):
going to be the solution.
That's not the solution.
Like we need to change our focus from being our self-focus to others focused to getoutside our own head.
And so
that when I first heard that, that was great for me because I could immediately switchfrom what I was thinking was the mistake I just made into I can recover that and make a
(45:14):
great play in the next play.
I can recover that and not to make up for it, but kind of.
I could do something positive that could already be at the front of my mind moving forwardinstead of the negative thing that I had in my mind.
that just happened.
And so this desire for like, okay, but I want to make up for it.
(45:36):
Therefore I can, let me just try harder, whatever it is, like switch my mindset to beinginstead of me, focus on the team and try to do something good for the team.
think that's a great aspect of sport is we learn so much.
We learned so like, it's such a great training ground for life principles, which is why Italk a lot about it now of like it being these life principles that we don't know we're
(45:59):
learning when we're youth.
when we're like a little young, but that like my eyes are so open to the value that sportscan bring if given the right opportunities and the right coaches to speak into our lives
at those times.
They create really a foundation going forward in life of mindset, of values, of being agreat teammate, being responsible, of showing up, of thinking of yourself less and your
(46:24):
teammates more.
Like there's such, there's so much potential when you're in sports to have goodfoundations.
It doesn't always come because sometimes it's not great coaches.
Sometimes it's your own self that like gets in the way of you having a great experience.
ah But like next play, it's still stuck with me and I don't even know where I heard it.
(46:45):
And it's funny because when I posted that, I was thinking mostly of like of life stuffthat's happening for me in this season.
uh At once I only thought about that phrase in sports, which is very helpful.
And now like
thinking about that in relationships and things that happen in life.
Like, it's the same principle and how great we can just have this short phrase that like,let me just take that and apply it to this part of my life.
(47:12):
it's great.
Shout out to James.
I really, really appreciate you sharing this.
And I feel like given what you just said, it kind of teased me up to ask the last questionI wanted to ask you.
And I'm gonna apologize in advance.
I have done my best to not ask you any trite, dorky, journalist questions interviewing anOlympian to this point.
(47:33):
But my last question is definitely a trite, dorky, journalist question, and I apologize inadvance.
um
I imagine that even though the work is the same, that everything is hitting a littledifferent right now because you're approaching the end of your professional career.
And I'm wondering if you've sort of thought it all about what your legacy is as anathlete.
(48:01):
And I guess my question to you based on that is, for a young person that learns about youthrough folklore and watches your film or something like,
What would you want your legacy to be for those people?
Interesting question, Jared.
I haven't thought about that.
um
Yeah, I haven't necessarily thought about what do I want people to say about me down theroad because I usually am not like, it's okay, you don't gotta talk about me.
(48:35):
It's okay.
I could tell, mean, everything you've said so far this interview also leads me to believethat you're just the constant teammate, giving your teammates credit for everything and
talking to everything.
So that's one of the reasons why I wanted to ask this is like, you know, what shouldpeople remember about you, the athlete and competitor?
Well, for me, when you ask that, ah I would say it's that...
(49:00):
ah
that who I was was ah more than an athlete, to be quite honest.
I definitely went through a season of an athlete being my whole identity.
And that is a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves as young folks, and adults do thistoo in anything we do for work, for jobs, whatever it is, is we make the what we do and
(49:29):
the most visible thing of the what's that we do.
identity and what happens with that is that when that doesn't go our way or whenperformance is like not great because our identity is on the external conditions and uh
the results it creates like a lot of turbulence you know within ourselves and so my hopeis that my my legacy would be like uh that who I was as a person is was consistent
(50:01):
as an athlete, it was in my relationships, as it was uh even as going to tournaments.
I like connecting with people, I adding value to people wherever I go.
ah And that the excellence that I desired for my life was conveyed through the hard workand effort that I put in in basketball, just as much as being a great teammate, as
(50:24):
connecting with people, as the next things that I do in life.
I hope...
My legacy is consistent, consistently pursuing excellence and my God-given potential.
I just hope it's consistent across the board no matter what I do is that I give my bestand make other people feel valued.
(50:47):
am so grateful that you chose to answer that the way you did.
um I think a theme for lot of the things that you shared over the course of this chat isthat they're addressing topics that a lot of athletes are trying to navigate right now,
especially with the social media generation.
A lot of these kids are showing up in college being like, who am I besides a basketballplayer?
(51:13):
What's my actual identity?
So I thank you very much for sharing.
not only what you just shared, but also some of your stories and anecdotes about some ofyour professional transitions, some of your collegiate transitions, the frustration that
came with it and how you navigated it.
um I would say, given your mission, this was a tremendous value add for my listeners andI'm so grateful that we got to have the kind of conversation that we had.
(51:40):
um Thank you so much for being a part of it and I really sincerely look forward tocheering you on.
through the home stretch of this should be really exciting.
Thanks so much, Jared.
Thanks for having me on.
Thanks for all your questions and insights from yourself as well.
It's been a pleasure.
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