May 27, 2025 • 53 mins
Inside the Evaluation Process with Wisconsin-River Falls Head Coach Shelby Lyman
Jared here. In this week’s episode, we’re pulling the curtain all the way back. I’m joined by Coach Shelby Lyman, head coach at Wisconsin-River Falls. Together, we’re going to walk you through literally every part of an evaluation of a prospective college athlete.
If you’ve ever wondered how college coaches decide who they’re watching, what they’re watching for, and how they follow up—this is the episode for you. We break down what it looks like from a coach’s perspective during live recruiting periods, from what gets an athlete on their radar, to what actually leads to a roster spot or scholarship offer.
When it comes to areas of expertise, Coach Lyman brings a rare combination of experiences to the table. She had an exceptional playing career at Cornell, she’s coached at both the D1 and D3 levels, and she is also coaching an AAU team during UWRF's offseason. Everything she is telling you on this podcast is EXACTLY what she is telling her team of 16U athletes who aspire to play college ball themselves.
We also talk about the strategic side of building a roster at the D3 level—how finances, culture, and growth opportunities play a role—and why the top of Division III isn’t just competitive, but comparable to some scholarship programs.
If you're a recruit, parent, or coach trying to REALLY understand how college staffs evaluate talent, fit, and long-term potential—this episode is a must-listen.
____
Download the NTRP x Athlete Narrative Recruiter App:
https://signup.athletenarrative.com/ntrp2?am_id=ntrp
To obtain more information about my coaching services or to check out the book, visit www.nailtherecruitingprocess.com
Have a question that you’d like answered by me or a guest? Have an idea for an episode topic? Have no suggestions but just want to say hello? Email me at RecruitingGEAR@gmail.com
Follow me on social media!
Instagram - @NailTheRecruitingProcess
TikTok - @JaredTheCoach
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
So coach, I actually want to start by calling attention to your background.
ah This is a Division III basketball facility.
uh Yeah, we have a room that's upstairs uh overlooking the gym.
It's called the RCU room.
We'll have staff meetings in here, team stuff, team meals, but ah it is a really coolplace to watch a basketball game actually.
(00:21):
So uh nice little benefit that we have.
certainly looks at it and I'm excited to talk to you.
I appreciate the real reason you're here for to help educate people, but I'm excited totalk to you about your conference.
And one thing I'm constantly telling young people about is like, when you get out into theMidwest, these D3 facilities are pretty wild.
(00:43):
I've been in a number of D1 gyms that don't hold a candle to where you're sitting rightnow.
Yeah, we're very fortunate.
The Falcon Center is hands down one of the best facilities.
I've had the opportunity to coach in, let alone work in.
I've spent a lot of time in the Northeast, and it's in Division I facilities also.
And honestly, this is probably bar none the best one I've been in.
(01:06):
pretty wild.
I really value uh your on and off court perspective on a lot of things.
But you're going through a really unique experience as a coach that I kind of want to shedlight on.
It's not every day that a team finishes in the middle of the pack of their conference andthen looks up and everyone that finished ahead of them was in the NCAA turn.
(01:36):
Right.
You're you're in a unique situation, especially at the Division three level where the whyact has essentially become, you know, the basketball murderers row.
Then we talk about your actual regular season.
You beat two final four teams.
have so like, I'm curious to just be in the mind of a head coach who is kind of stillfighting that fight to escape the quote middle of the pack, but is doing it in.
(02:06):
the elite division three conference.
How do you balance those two things?
uh I mean, you have to get your players to kind of buy into it.
uh We sell it during recruiting.
You don't really understand what you're going to go through on a Wednesday and a Saturdayuntil you go through it on a Wednesday and a Saturday.
You know, you can look at your schedule and you've got two top 10 teams that are on yourschedule that you got to go on the road and play.
(02:31):
uh It's the most difficult and the most rewarding slash best thing I've done in mycoaching career.
uh This conference is...
Incredible you go into it every week.
You got to take it one game at a time it's 14 game conference season but go in one game ata time with it and um You know each team is so unique and so different that each game plan
(02:52):
has to be just as unique and different So it's a lot of time that goes into it eh But ourplayers they get it They understand it the level that you have to come with at it with uh
if you don't show up It shows in a box score and people look at that score and they'relike
But every night across the board, men's and women's side, we've had multiple Final Fourteams.
(03:14):
think Platteville Men played for a national championship last year and we had two thatwere in the Final Four this year.
Like you said, five that made the tournament, which in the Division Three landscape ispretty crazy because you've only got, I Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so we get five teams in and there's I think only 20 or 23 at larges or somethinglike that.
(03:34):
So we take up a good chunk of it.
Um, but it is, it's a, it's a gauntlet every single night.
And I think you also get to a point where you look at scores and you're like, yeah.
Like the number one team in the conference lost to the quote unquote, like the eight C inthe conference.
And you're like, yeah, like I believe it.
You know, when you and I first crossed paths, you were an assistant at St.
(03:58):
John Fisher and I was an assistant at Union.
And we would play really competitive games against one another.
And I can think about what the recruiting pitch was like on my end, having the opportunityto play teams like you guys, and you guys were winning the Empire Eight, competing in
those games with you.
But then also trying to sell our kids on, we haven't won the Liberty League and we stillgotta try to build a team to win.
(04:22):
the Liberty League and balancing those two things.
I say that because you just alluded to, you know, what that cell is like in yourrecruiting process.
Obviously your style of play, I mean, realistically reflects a bit of what you did as aplayer.
A lot of pace and space, a lot of three point shooting.
So I know you're comfortable with that part of the cell, but are you comfortable kind oflike walking us through, like, what is it like when you get like a really talented kid
(04:48):
that you really want and they're sitting in your office?
What is your messaging to them?
We talk a lot about that if you're competing for a WIAC title, you're going to compete atthe national level.
ah And we are close.
ah I think that we use that fact of, you can really go build something and do something.
(05:08):
know, the last time River Falls was in the Unsaid Tournament, I think was 2015, 2016.
So, you know, it's been about 10 years.
ah And we've been close.
We've had some teams that, you know, have pushed the button on the Unsaid Tournament in,you know, the last 10 years, but...
You really try to just get them to commit to like buying into doing something that hasn'tbeen done in 10 years, which, you know, as a player, it's a little bit more of a
(05:33):
challenging road, I guess, compared to go into a team that routinely is there.
And it's hard to get there, you know, and I know it's you get there one year doesn't meanyou're gonna get there the next year.
So you really just try to sell them on, you know, doing something that hasn't been done ina while and kind of you can hang your hat on you were the one that did it.
Your class was the one that did it.
(05:55):
You said something that really resonated with me just now.
um I have always felt like if we're looking sheerly at the caliber of the character of thekid that we're recruiting, I've always felt like there's a difference between a kid that
wanted to be a part of something that was already built or a kid that was like, dude, Ihave an opportunity to get into the ground floor of something.
(06:15):
This could be like really special.
Have you identified like some characteristics in some of those kids that you've recruitedto River Falls?
They're like, that kid.
that thing that I'm really interested in.
Like what does that look like to you?
Yeah, a lot of them come from, I think, successful high school programs.
So they kind of already know what it takes.
(06:36):
We have a player from Iowa who won three state titles in four years or something likethat.
So she kind of understands the work that it's going to take.
She's in the gym three, four, five times a week during the season when she's allowed to bewith us.
So that, think, like people who
Naturally want to win or are accustomed to winning You know, you don't take losing theydon't take losing streaks as well as somebody who maybe comes from a high school program
(07:04):
That was that struggled or is in a really tough, you know situation in a conference and souh You know, I think that's something that we look for is success at the high school level
just because you know winning winning's hard and you've got to be able to have playersthat Know what it takes to win uh and you know
It's not that all players don't want to win.
(07:25):
It's just you do have to do a little bit extra, especially when you're trying to getthere.
You have to build habits and culture that way.
Absolutely and on the subject of uh building those habits I've also found that sometimesthere are background characteristics that help identify like which kids have those habits
(07:46):
what kind of family they're from What kind of you know talent and work ethic they have no,that's okay
That's how quiet and peaceful the facility is.
Nobody knows you're there.
(08:06):
That was amazing.
No, don't worry.
No, we'll edit it out, no worries.
uh On the subject of bringing in the right kind of kids, on the subject of bringing in theright kind of kids and the right high school fit, I think about our own backgrounds.
You played at Cornell.
(08:26):
um I have to imagine the typical Cornell freshman looks a bit different.
and comes from maybe a different background than the typical River Falls freshmen.
You have talked with me off air about some of the differences and financially what is sortof creating challenges in higher ed.
(08:51):
And I would love to pick your brain a little bit about it if you're comfortable.
I'm looking behind you at this facility and I'm talking to you, knowing your experienceand I'm struggling to believe
that this is a state school.
Yeah.
Like, is that also part of your conversation and is that like that level of access?
(09:16):
Is that also driving some of these high school kids towards you?
Yeah, the facility doesn't hurt, right?
Like my former boss and I joked that like if the facility wasn't what it is, like there'sa good chance like we're not here, right?
And that goes like across the board, our offices, the weight room, locker room situation,like it's gorgeous.
All the athletic complexes are right here, like hockey's right next door to us in the samebuilding, indoor track is here, football's across the parking lot.
(09:41):
Like, so the facility, yeah, but I mean.
who were able to go recruit, the type of athlete that were able to go recruit.
Yeah, it's a little different than when I was at Cornell.
know, grades are very, very important.
Our team has a cumulative GPA of a 3.7.
(10:01):
So they're very, very, very, very good students.
But on recruiting calls and when I'm talking to coaches, my first question is no longerwhat's their GPA and what are their test scores.
It matters, but.
It's not the end all be all.
at Union, I'm sure you went through kind of the same talk with people.
um But the cost to go here um compared to some of the other schools in our area, theprivate schools, um you can't really beat it, um what you're going to pay for and get a
(10:34):
great education in the process.
um We also recruit a lot of athletes that have plans to go to grad school.
um
So like that plays a huge part, you know, the cost of a YX school for an in-stateresident, it's gonna be, you know, roughly 17, $18,000 and that's with no financial aid,
(10:54):
no scholarships, no nothing.
So actually we've had 10 players graduate in the last two years and seven of them arecurrently in grad school.
Yeah, so that kind of, yeah.
education.
and I think you're seeing that a lot with more and more people.
(11:16):
Like they go to grad school for occupational therapy, PT, PA.
Those are some of the common ones that we have on our roster.
So that's, you know, a question that we ask in recruiting, like what's your major, right?
Like, or what are you looking to do?
And people tell us like, oh, I want to go be an occupational therapist.
It's like, well, you got to go to grad school for occupational therapy, right?
(11:37):
So we have a great exercise science program that prepares people and
You know, we've got, I think one who is applying to grad school now, she's gonna graduatenext year, and then one who's, you know, in grad school currently, occupational therapy.
But that's definitely a factor.
oh It's like weird as it sounds, but people definitely talk about that when they're goingthrough the recruiting process with us.
(11:59):
Well, even think about what this looked like when we were in school.
I feel like the price of higher ed has literally doubled at the elite privates since wewere in school.
is, know, not to turn this into a financing higher education podcast, but I will admitthat uh my stomach turned on itself when you told me that in-state tuition was $17,000 a
(12:23):
year because I know what union's tuition is and Cornell's tuition is and like,
Even Kinesius, prides itself, where I last was, prides itself on being an accessibleprivate college is double what you just said in state, that's why it was.
Are there ever moments where you sort of look at that and you see the experience thatthese kids that are your players have access to and are like, wow, I spent a lot of money
(12:49):
on college.
Oh, every single day, every single day, I'm like, I would not change my experience foranything.
Like I loved Cornell.
I would go back and do it again in a heartbeat.
Like the people I met there, my coaching staff, like my teammates, like I had a blast inmy four years there.
I wouldn't change any of it, but yeah, I look at the cost and yeah, it's like, you're justlike, man, like I really spent like that money to go there.
(13:13):
Like I loved it.
It afforded me so many great opportunities, but then.
You know, you come to all the WAC schools, really.
They all offer very unique experiences.
We're all different in our own way.
But like here at River Falls, like it's a small-ish campus.
You know, we have roughly 5,000 students, you know, so you're not going to run into thesame people every day, but you're not going to feel overwhelmed with 20.
(13:36):
I went to school with 20,000 students.
Like that was a lot.
Now that I'm looking back on it, I'm like, yeah, it's a lot of people, but yeah, you'regoing to get the smaller class sizes, like really tailored to you.
uh TA sessions or office hour sessions and uh you really get to know your professors.
You really get to know everybody that's in the athletic department.
uh The affordability is, you know, I don't even like know how to put it into words.
(14:01):
Like I think it's great.
I think it's great that state college or state tuition in our league has stayed what it isuh just because it does give people the opportunity to go, you know, fulfill their dreams,
right?
Like
If you're gonna pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for an undergrad degree, you're notgonna be able to afford to go to grad school or med school or whatever it may be that you
(14:22):
wanna do in your path in life.
so, yeah, the cost here and people get their financial aid packages and it's not a stickershock.
When I was at St.
John Fisher, that was part of it.
And we were on the more affordable side uh of a private school at Fisher and people wouldlook at it and they're like, I can't go there, I can't afford it.
(14:43):
Well, there's another angle to what you're saying that if I'm just talking about strategicrecruiting and trying to field the most talented character team that also fits what I want
to do basketball wise.
The other thing I think about, Shelby, is, you know, if we got a scholarship kid totransfer to union, it was because that individual had a family that could afford union.
(15:07):
Whereas I feel like you have an opportunity to...
financially with scholarship institutions right now with, you know, the financial aid youhave.
Is that stuff that your league runs into?
Because I also think it's important for like, I've always, just so you have thisbackground, I always talk to parents and players about how like, it's not a pyramid the
(15:31):
way you think it is.
Like the top of D3 is better than the bottom of D2 competitively.
So if you can make the finances even, is that something you're experiencing?
Yeah, I think if you look at our league last year, every single one of us had at least onetransfer that was, you know, in the rotation, whether they started or not.
um We at River Falls have this next year, we're going to have two, four of them that wereat a scholarship school.
(15:57):
And we've graduated, you know, a couple that were at a scholarship school in previousyears that made immediate impacts.
But yeah, it's definitely something that allows us to go recruit someone who may have
offers at a Division II school and it's like, you know, weakened with a financial aidpackage and academics and everything, like, arguably will be more affordable for you.
(16:19):
Like, there's something that river falls that like textbooks are included in your tuition,which I spent a lot of money on textbooks in college, right, with my...
Yeah, with...
thousand dollars a year, if not more.
Right, like I was a government major, I was buying 10 to 20 books a semester, like it wasinsane.
So like that's an included cost here and like some schools may be like, yeah, we'll likepay for your books.
(16:44):
And it's like, well, that's already included in your tuition that's here.
So, you know, it definitely allows us to be a little more aggressive in recruiting.
You know, there's no like, like they might be too good for us.
It's like, no, like let's shoot them a text or call and like maybe we're interested, likemaybe they'll be interested.
Maybe we have a major program that they're looking at or.
you know, maybe we're just close enough to home, whereas the other schools are looking atare too far from home.
(17:08):
So, you know, we will go reach on a few and if we don't, you know, if they end up goingsomewhere else, like that's fine.
But you know, the transfer portal is what it is now.
And so you build relationships with people along the way in recruiting.
And uh I think you've kind of seen that in our league as well, like players who go playsomewhere and
(17:29):
end up transferring back either to a school that had recruited them previously or thatthey know through the process.
So it definitely, I think our league has gotten better actually since the transfer portalopened just because it um allows people a second chance, an option to go play somewhere
else.
And like I said, we at our school can put together some financial aid packages that areeven not like that are affordable, schools affordable for people.
(17:59):
So, I mean, I appreciate you sharing in as much detail.
I feel like a lot of people just got behind the scenes look at like what's it actuallylike to the strategy of recruiting at a school like yours.
I mean, it's been so literally in each of the last four seasons, you guys have gotten thegame better in conference.
So I know how hard it is to build.
It's been so cool to see you guys knocking on the door each year.
(18:22):
And I know that's gonna continue building for you.
If you are ready, we can toss on our hypothetical.
lab coats and educate the masses about the recruiting process.
Are you ready, Shelby Line?
All right.
So I want to start and you you probably have some easy examples to cling to because we'recoming off of a live weekend as we record this.
(18:46):
If you've never heard of a kid before, let's bounce back and forth how a kid potentiallygets on your radar.
I'll start with an easy one and then you can fill in the blanks from here.
yeah.
I have seen a really good practice recently where reputable AAU coaches will kind of massemail college coaching staffs just be like, hey, here's where my team's going to be this
(19:07):
weekend.
Here's my roster.
And then they would just write two or three sentences about each kid.
And if that's an AAU program that I've recruited from before, then I can make a note of,yeah, in my downtime, or if there's not a specific kid I'm watching, I'm going to make
sure I see that team.
That is like a really good one for me.
What's a good one for you?
If a kid wants to be noticed by you and you have no idea who they are, what's a good onefor you?
(19:30):
We do like read and watch every email that comes through.
It might take me a few days to get to it, but we'll if it's a live period coming up likewe just had and they're going to be at the tournament that we're at, it's like, yeah, you
got to go check them out, right?
uh The AAU Coach one, you know, we take a lot of stock in that one just because I coachAAU basketball and so I've gotten to know a lot of people throughout the years um with it
(19:57):
and I've been in the area now for five or six years.
ah The state tournament is a good starting place for us as well.
Maybe with some younger kids.
We'll go to the Minnesota State Tournament.
ah You know, if we have some downtime, we'll go check out.
I'll go look at a program that I've never heard of before.
And it's like, let's go see who's at this court.
(20:17):
ah But I mean, emailing us is always, you know, I know people hate mass emails, but ifyou're able to tailor it and it's like two, three, four sentences of like, that's what I'm
looking for.
That's what I'm looking to major in.
from here, here's a highlight film, you know, we'll watch it and if there's any interest,like, we'll go check it out.
that this was your experience as well.
(20:39):
um But I was basically trained.
Like when my original mentors, when I was trying to break into coaching, basically toldme, I don't care how tedious it is, you watch film from every email that you're sent.
Was that consistent with your upbringing?
Yep.
I think like when I was at Cornell, like my job was to handle every email that came in,whether they were able to play at that level or not.
(21:06):
And you watch all of it, you make notes on all of it, it all goes into your recruitingdatabase.
And so everybody knows.
So this is, I think, really, really good hygiene for any parents, players, coaches thatare listening.
um We are sticking to a schedule when we're on the road.
We don't have the downtime that you think we do.
(21:27):
So any way you can hit us in advance with film is gonna help.
Obviously building relationships with AAU, I'm always gonna favor the coaches that I know,especially if I already have a pipeline there.
And then in that downtime, just like you were talking about, coach,
in that downtime, then we're going to check out the unknown.
Then we're going to see what's out there.
But would you agree that your odds are elevated if you take the initiative?
(21:49):
Like if you try to get on that schedule beforehand?
Yeah, absolutely.
Like if you're talented enough, like we'll find you eventually, whether it's through wordof mouth or, or what, you know, like coaches talk on the recruiting trail.
Um, but yeah, like reaching out is by far like the best way to get even on an interestlist.
So I want to divide the next category, right?
(22:11):
Because we're not all looking for the exact same thing, right?
I know the way your team plays, so it's probably going to matter to you that the wingsyou're recruiting can drill threes, right?
But without being overly specific, we're looking for guards.
A kid that you see live that impresses you at the guard position does blank.
(22:35):
What do you think?
You gotta be a good screener.
I think that's a very underrated thing that has, I don't want say has gone away.
ah But you know, if we're running a set or something, right?
To get a post player, a layup, like, and you don't set that good screen, then the play'sdead.
God damn it.
I thought I turned the timer off.
(22:57):
ah
so first criteria, small to big screens is something we're looking for.
like we look at we screen a lot in our offense and so you've got to be a good screener.
uh Post entry passes, we play a lot through our forwards.
Our forwards are great passers.
So we get them the ball uh high post short corner.
You're like, can you make a post entry pass?
ah And then like this is going to sound incredibly boring.
(23:21):
But like, do you just keep the game simple?
Right?
Do you just if two defenders go with a cutter, do you try to feed the ball into thatcutter or do you hit?
the open corner three, right?
So just can you make the right play?
And then like with guards, like obviously can you handle it?
um Can you, you know, one to two dribbles create a shot, you know, basic things like that,just overall skill.
(23:47):
But it's really like, is your IQ, like what's your IQ?
Can you set a good screen?
Can you make the right play, the simple play, right?
Like basketball, the simple game.
Like I don't know, I say that a lot on the sidelines, like simple, right?
Keep it simple.
um
But yeah, those are some of the things we'll look for in guards.
I want to ask you two follow-ups for guards specifically because when I talk to parents,this is one that comes out a lot.
(24:12):
I try to explain to them that when it comes to the way they're being evaluated by collegecoaches, there's kind of a resume and a cover letter portion of it.
And that if I see you do a sick dribble move and I see really consistent shooting form,that's cover letter material.
But then I need to see your decision-making and how you handle adversity.
Is that sort of what you're alluding to with that smaller stuff in terms of
(24:35):
Screening, actions between the actions, can you keep it simple?
Is that resume fodder?
Yeah, like you're gonna hit three threes or four threes and a half like you're gonna getour attention right but it's like Do you?
Can you make the right read?
Are you gonna be able to handle like turnovers are inevitable?
Right?
Like I don't think there's ever been a basketball game where you haven't turned the ballover as a team Right, like you're gonna miss shots like your reaction to those things how
(25:01):
you react to your teammates like who make those mistakes?
Like that.
Do you try to help your teammate who it's like?
try to force a pass it's like no no no like swing it one more and then it'll be an easierentry pass right like those little things that go in between different plays ah but you
know i think scoring comes naturally a lot to people and it's the smaller things that keepyou know that will keep our attention
(25:29):
love the way you said that, because a lot of times when they get to the collegiate level,they can't score as easily and it breaks them mentally because they don't have the other
things down yet.
Yeah.
My second question is harkening on your personal experience, which is that you also coachAAU.
That's a D3 thing.
If people are unfamiliar with that, D3 coaches can coach club in the off season.
(25:54):
I'm imagining that, especially because at the AAU level, everyone wants to be a guard,regardless of whether or not they should be.
That's just how it works.
You probably have some consistent messaging in angry Shelby voice that's like,
you know, guys, what are you doing?
um What would you say is like the most common teaching point you're giving to guards,especially when they're facing more competitive teams in live play?
(26:19):
Um, we get pressed a lot, right?
Everyone presses an AU and it's ball fakes and don't hide.
Um, you know, like step to your catch and then like, I'll say it again, but like simple,make simple passes.
Um, you don't need to try to thread the needle with things all the time.
Um, and then just don't over dribble, right?
(26:42):
Like those are probably the three biggest things that I'm coaching a 16 new team rightnow.
see it a lot, turnovers that are caused by, like we don't ball fake with things or we tryto dribble through and it's like, no, if you just go here and then we're able to go uh and
then also shoot it when you're open.
Don't try to always like go get a layup again.
(27:03):
Like I know this stuff seems like incredibly simple, but like shoot it when you're open,right?
Like that's the best shot we're to get in a possession and you're not shooting it.
You know, we try to drive the lane and all of a sudden it's a jump ball, it's going theother way.
my God, that honestly, AAU traffic, and I'm from downstate, AAU traffic is worse thanManhattan traffic, in my opinion.
(27:24):
When I watch somebody drive one on two, it is gut wrenching.
because like, you'll see it over and over and over again.
And you can kind of tell which AAU programs drill offense versus help defense and whichones don't by the game of tackle football that ensues on live weekends.
So I...
(27:45):
I appreciate you sharing that.
On the subject of simplicity, switching to forwards, um I am always surprised by how fewyoung people realize that keeping it simple as a forward is the easiest way to get
noticed.
Drop step finish with each hand, showcasing that you can actually take physicality, sealwell.
(28:06):
And then the biggest one, which kills me that more forwards don't take this seriously,
Just being well conditioned.
If you can beat somebody down the floor, seal and finish with either hand, that'softentimes a big attention getter at the collegiate level.
What else do you look for when you see bigs?
uh Their footwork, right?
Like it doesn't have to be super complex.
(28:28):
It can be simple, like he said.
But do they have good footwork?
If someone's on their back, do they turn and face up?
If they're getting fronted, do they know to seal, right?
Like tell the guards to swing the ball and seal.
uh And then we look at their passing ability as well, right?
Do you try to go up through a double?
um If there's help middle, are you able to kick it to the weak side for a three?
(28:48):
ah We've been very fortunate with our forwards the last couple years, like they can throwa skip pass on a dime to the opposite corner to the point where I even still like this,
she just is graduated, but for four years I watched her throw skip passes across and everytime I was just like, I don't know how that got there, but it did.
uh So I think being able to pass, not even out of a double, but just out of traffic.
(29:10):
That's something that we look for.
And then offensive rebounding, right?
Do you attack the glass?
Do you use?
If you're undersized height wise, do you use your feet and your ability to be a little bitquicker to go to the offensive glass or do you just hang around the free throw line and
hope it bounces to you?
And then you nailed it.
Like the ability to run the floor.
It's not even like, I don't need you to hit like a trail three.
(29:33):
I need you to go sprint and draw two or three defenders.
know, we, talk a lot about that in our program.
Like we'll watch film or even like in practice, we'll stop practice and we'll point itout.
Like you ran the floor, which allowed.
an open three to happen because you, you drew, yeah, like you drew two defenders, right?
And you running caused the weak side to help.
(29:54):
And so we were able to skip the ball across and that leads to a three.
It's like, that's an assist for you in my book.
In my opinion, the two most underrated qualities you can have as a big is consistentlyrunning the floor and having great vision opposite when you peak middle.
So to your point about skip passes, my last year at Union before the COVID shutdown year,my twist would be 2019, 2020, our center, Ellie Vaughn, finished second on the team in
(30:25):
assist and all of them were.
I'm getting doubled, I take one bounce out of the kill zone and I skip opposite.
And I remember film sessions with the guards where based on the way our offense moves on apost entry, there should have been someone where Ellie threw it.
And I remember me and another coach on this team, uh Coach Mike Smith, who's volunteeringat the time, just saying to her, throw it.
(30:48):
And if somebody's not there, it's their fault.
Like if you have the ability,
to create that space and make that pass.
I think those are the two big things.
So I'm glad we're on the same page about that.
Before we move on to the next thing, I know every coach has their own, we'll call itmiscellaneous category.
I had a hyper obsession with like the high-fivers and the communicators.
(31:12):
I was like, want every single one of those kids.
Is there something extracurricular that like always stands out to you when you seesomebody play, regardless of position?
Yeah, I think it's the one who like their teammate will like hang their head and it's theone who walks over and is like, no, no, no, like you're okay.
Like the pass, like it's sailed out of your hand or like it doesn't matter that you airballed.
It's like next play, next play, next play.
(31:33):
ah So I think that's kind of ours because you know, basketball is so quick and you'renever going to play a game where you're perfect.
Like it's just, it's not going to happen.
And so.
the player who understands that and recognizes that and is always telling their teammate,like, it's okay, like we have to move on, we have to move on, you can't let it linger.
Like, that's kind of what I think will probably be like my miscellaneous one, the onewho's always getting their teammate like quickly to move on from the next or from the
(32:00):
mistake, right?
It's funny you talked earlier uh in the first chapter of this, if you will, aboutrecruiting winners.
I feel like what you just described is a winning habit.
That's what winning teams do.
They keep their teammates locked in.
So, that's awesome.
Okay, so you found some guards you liked, you found some forwards you liked.
(32:20):
Now you're gonna do your initial outreach.
You're gonna talk to their AAU coaches, you're gonna talk to their families.
Before you even talk to the kid, let's backtrack.
What are the things you wanna learn?
when you sort of do your quote unquote reference checks, maybe you talk to a high schoolcoach, talk to their program director, somebody, what do you want to learn about that kid?
(32:40):
uh I mean, are they a good person?
Right?
Like I think that's pretty standard for us across the board.
uh You know, we are still interested in their GPA and all of that stuff, their academicinterest.
If we don't have their major, it's kind of an uphill battle for us.
Right?
uh Let's see.
What else?
Do they want to stay close to home, away from home?
(33:02):
Are they open to pretty much anything?
uh What are they looking like?
Just how are they to coach?
Do they take feedback well?
How do they respond to mistakes?
Do they practice hard?
ah Do they get extra reps in the gym?
um You know, I know practice is not all the teams are able to practice two, three, fourtimes a week, but when you have them in the gym for two, three hours a week, like do they
(33:27):
go hard?
Because you're going to come here.
Yeah, because you're going to come to the college level and like if you don't practicehard, like it's going to be a long two to three hours for you.
um
So just kind of that stuff, you know, mainly like we have a lot of people who like tospend time in the gym here.
So it's like, do you actively want to get better by yourself?
(33:47):
Cause that's one of the challenges of division three basketball is we're so limited towhat we can do with them in the summer and out of season.
It's like, you have to be internally motivated to do it by yourself.
So is that person going to go, you know, any time of the day and go get up.
300 shots or go work on ball handling stuff or take a teammate in there with them to gowork on some stuff.
(34:12):
So that's the biggest thing, I think, is are you going to be able to do it by yourself?
You mentioned several things in your response just now that if I were to categorize whatyou just said, category A would be, does the kid check my boxes in terms of being a kid
(34:32):
that I wanna coach?
But then there's this other category of, are we the right fit for the kid?
Would they respond to my type of coaching?
Are they the right academic fit for us?
You know, and I think that it's really important to point out to our listeners that likeat every level, these coaches are doing their homework early on about, you know, what the
(34:55):
most effective course of action would be because they're not interested in wasting your ortheir time.
And, you know, that kind of gives us an opportunity now to pivot to like a conversationwith the kid.
Obviously.
You know, a typical.
entry phone call to a kid is going to be the same across the board because a typical phonecall introducing yourself to anyone is going to be the same across the board.
(35:21):
But what I'd rather learn about, especially from someone that's had your experience at theD1 and D3 level is, you know, are there specific things you're looking for on that first
call from that kid that would resonate with you or that would make you go, you know what?
Yeah, I want to keep building a relationship with this kid.
Like, what are you looking for?
uh Can you hold a conversation?
(35:43):
Like do you give us more than one word answers?
uh A lot of conversations, uh sometimes like you're pulling teeth trying to get answers,right?
It's like, are you doing a spring sport?
Yeah.
Okay, great.
you know, so can you hold a conversation?
Do you ask questions?
(36:04):
uh You know, or are you just...
uh
Talking on the phone, I know at 16 17 years old is hard.
I admittedly I was the worst Worst student athlete to recruit if it was an area code.
I didn't recognize like I wasn't answering it like Like I just I'm like, I don't want totalk to people on the phone.
(36:24):
So
the Pacific Northwest.
How many area codes did you even know?
Like three, honestly.
And they were all in the state of Washington and one from Oregon.
So, yeah, if my dad wasn't in the car sometimes when I was getting these phone calls, likeanswering it for me, like there's a good chance that I probably just wouldn't have
answered any of them.
So like I do understand that it is uncomfortable and it's awkward.
(36:46):
And so like, we try to do our best to mitigate that and, you know, ask good like ask youquestions and allow you to talk about yourself but.
On the flip side, like, do you ask us questions?
Can you hold a conversation?
Are you, you know, do you want to learn about our program?
Are you just on this call because someone told you that you had to be?
(37:09):
So those are some of the things.
I want to ask you a quick follow up.
I have a feeling just because of what I know about you and my conversation with youpreviously that I'm going to know your response, but I think it could be insightful for
listeners.
um You're going to be airing right after a podcast with uh Joe Jones, head coach on themen's side with Boston University.
(37:32):
And one of the things that he said on the podcast was, when I do these initial recruitingcalls, I always give parents a chance to talk.
and then I just let them go.
Because oftentimes, whatever they have to say will indicate whether or not this will be,no you're,
(38:03):
has its flaws.
It's all right.
So you're coming on right after this interview with Coach Jones.
And one of the things that he says in the interview is when he's on these initial callswith kids, he's open to letting the parents talk.
And one of his strategies is to just let them go and see what they say.
And what he said to me was sometimes, you you learn whether or not this kid is going to beright for you just based on what the parents say or if the parents are sort of too much
(38:29):
and overdo it.
I know, ah you know,
giving rules to the parents is oftentimes a hot button topic in recruiting, like hearingthat and knowing that you're coming right after that and we're talking about these calls,
what are your thoughts on parental involvement?
I think it's needed to a certain extent.
(38:49):
mean, they're 16, 17 years old.
Like when you're talking to them, like they don't know their financial situation fully.
Like, like they don't know like if they want to go far from school.
Like there are certain things that like their parents like that you do need help with,right?
Like still or like they may have no idea what they want to major in.
(39:10):
They may tell you something because it's like what their brother did or something and theyactually have no idea.
uh So I think parent involvement, like I think it's needed, it's necessary, but also youcan't, you know, it's a very fine line that they're going to have to tow because in six
months or eight months, whenever your kid goes off to college, like they're myresponsibility, right?
(39:31):
Like I need to know if they're having a problem or succeeding like from them.
I need to know the goods and the bads like from them.
I'm not going to get an email and say like, you know, why aren't you playing my kid?
It's like you can.
Like, no, like don't, please don't email me asking me that.
But I do think there has to be some sort of parental involvement, at least at the start.
(39:51):
uh And then, you know, I think my communication with parents decreases as we get into therecruiting process a little bit further with the student athlete.
Initially, or on like a first visit, parents will ask a lot of questions.
uh But as we get into it, right, if it's my second or third.
(40:12):
or a kid comes back to visit for a second time.
um It's usually more they're asking more questions and I'm going to try to keep theconversation focused on them more so than parents.
Parents, that's a strategy.
I've talked about this before, but like, wink, nudge, nudge.
If she's directing it towards the kids, let the kids go.
(40:35):
That's a, you know, that's, I'm not saying that's my sole interpretation of what you justsaid, Shelby.
I'm just saying, make sure you take that note.
um Okay, so now, relationship continues, and you know, it's rinse, repeat a lot of thetime.
Just because you saw a kid live once doesn't mean that's gonna be the only time you seehim live.
A lot of times you follow them up.
We want to see if they can do these things consistently, but let's flash forward.
(40:58):
Now we're going to kind of bring it to the home stretch, which is now they're visitingcampus.
um There is one piece in my recruiting data, which you, by the way, participated in.
So, you know, two years too late.
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
The piece of data that was most unanimously agreed on of any question I asked, I gave asurvey question on a scale of one to ten.
(41:23):
And the prompt was, when a visit is over, I ask my current players how the visit went withthe recruit.
And that got almost a 10 out of 10 average response.
And I think that surprised a lot of parents, especially parents that I've talked toworking with AAU programs, who just sort of assumed that, you know, it was a sales pitch
(41:45):
when they go on campus.
um Can you speak to...
some of the fit analysis that takes place when there's a campus visit happening.
Yeah, we schedule usually about 30 minutes with our players um on a visit, try to work itaround their class schedules so we can have as many of them as we can to meet the student
(42:06):
athlete that's on campus.
uh And we usually have it without their parents.
like, well, you know, our coaching staff will take the parents, grab a, you know, a seatoutside or a cup of coffee or walk around or something.
And yeah, I immediately ask.
players after the student athlete leaves campus, like, what'd you think?
Do you think they'd fit in?
(42:30):
From a basketball standpoint, don't worry.
Our players pretty much are like, you're gonna bring in people that are gonna help us,right?
But the biggest thing is, do they fit in?
Will they fit in the locker room with culture?
they gonna cause problems?
Did they talk?
Did they ask questions?
Or did they let you all do the talking?
And we have a very eclectic.
(42:52):
team, they're all over the place.
They love this place.
They love River Falls.
They love to talk about River Falls.
But I'm like, did you let them talk and answer questions?
I don't need to know entirely what you talked about because that's part of the reason whywe let them meet with the players.
Right, right.
I was in college.
You were in college.
There are things that happen that your coaching staff does not want to know.
(43:13):
uh And I think we take their feedback.
uh
you know, more so than I think we take ours, right?
Like if our players are like, absolutely not, like we're like not gonna fit, gonna causeproblems, ask really like off putting questions.
(43:35):
I take that into account and you know, maybe we don't recruit that player anymore.
I think that what you just shared is one of the most overlooked things by parents thatlike, oftentimes, especially when the culture is good, your veteran players want to
protect and preserve that culture.
And it's not like they walk into these 30 minute discussions, you know, with a threatdetector monitor on waiting to find something wrong with you.
(44:02):
But if all you do for a half hour is put up glaring red flags,
the kids that want to protect the culture are going to go into coach's office and be like,yo coach, no.
And we listen.
And you know, that doesn't mean you're not going to be a good fit anywhere, but it doesmean you might not be a good fit for us.
(44:23):
And you know, that does happen.
You know, one specific example I can think of is I had a kid whose opinion I really valuehosts a really talented guard and she came in my office the next morning and was like,
coach, all she wanted to do was go to parties.
And like we had practiced the next morning and I told her we weren't doing it and like shegot mad at me.
(44:45):
And like, I, like, I can't see this working well if that's how this was, you know, on hervisit.
That was enough for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, you also have to remember that like, we get them for, let's just say fourhours, right?
Like during the season, a couple hours of practice, film some workouts during the day.
(45:05):
They're with their teammates for the remaining 12, 15 hours a day, right?
Like in the dorms, off campus at your apartments, dining halls, locker room.
Like you are with your team more than you are with your coaching staff.
And so if you don't get...
you know, kind of an approval or a checkmark from players, right?
Like, I can love you as much as I want, but I'm only gonna spend a fine amount of timewith you, like, during the day.
(45:33):
you know, like, I may think that they're gonna be a good fit basketball-wise, but then wehave some players come in and they're like, like you said, like, all they wanted to do was
know about the drinking and the party scene, right?
And it's like, well, there is more to college than that, especially college basketball andcollege athletics.
My goal in bringing you on today was to basically go through all the minutia of what itactually looks like for the typical kid going through the process to typically get a
(46:03):
roster spot offer or a scholarship offer.
And I think that you just crushed that because, you know, where we can end is.
And then if that all goes well, you get an offer.
Most offers tend to happen in person on campus.
Now, that's not always the way it happens, but
There's a lot of coaches out there that want to feel this out.
So the first thing I say is thank you for helping me through this journey.
(46:28):
I feel like everything you said could be a one minute like PSA with that like NBC rainbowpeacock in the background being like the more you know, like every single thing you said
was like that.
So thank you for that.
I appreciate it.
Thanks.
I like what you do.
It's fun to listen.
Yeah.
(46:49):
Okay.
I let you go.
um I have been bothered repeatedly over the last two years by a member of your staff whoconsistently scares you and thinks of ways to startle you.
And I need to know for my own comfort, has revenge been exacted on this young lady yet?
(47:12):
Okay, yeah, so she was, she graduated uh last year.
She was a transfer student, uh ended up staying for her COVID year, got her masters.
So she's graduated and she was in my office.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was, was, it was a player.
So like she was in my office probably like three times a week, four times a week.
And like, I get scared like pretty easily.
(47:35):
Like I don't do horror movies, like none of that stuff, right?
So I just...
it's probably gotten worse because she has the incentive to it on to two other players.
uh one of them hid underneath my desk as i'm coming in.
this was a couple months ago.
i'm coming in, have my, you know, cup of coffee, minding my own business.
(47:56):
probably my fault because i didn't lock my door, but open my office, turn the lights on,and she's sitting underneath my desk and she just goes, boom, and i fell into, fall into
the wall.
I am like, what are you doing here?
Like almost dropped my coffee, which honestly would have been the most tragic part of thewhole thing.
And she is laughing and her teammate comes from around the corner.
(48:19):
They got it from two angles.
And I'm like, no one wanted to warn me.
Like nobody in this hallway wanted to warn me that they were sitting in there.
So.
So this is, I'm slightly bummed about your professional colleagues now because I have,I've texted you no fewer than a half dozen times being like, if you want me to help you
get, get these people back, I will do it.
(48:41):
So.
it started with a player.
Her name was Macy Nielsen.
I can't get on her too much because she's one of the best like peer scorers I've evercoached.
But Macy was the one that started it and then Jaya and Emily are the ones that havecontinued it and I'm very nervous for what's about to come for the next year.
So.
I have no idea how, but Macy, when you least expect it, whether it's like glitter in anenvelope or like snakes coming out of a Pringles can, we're gonna think of something.
(49:08):
ah
gonna center this.
I'm gonna tell her.
That said, this is a perfect place to wrap the extremely insightful and easily startledShelby Lyman.
Thank you so much again for making the time.
Appreciate you as always, and this was great.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Appreciate it.
So coach, I actually want to start by calling attention to your background.
ah This is a Division III basketball facility.
uh Yeah, we have a room that's upstairs uh overlooking the gym.
It's called the RCU room.
We'll have staff meetings in here, team stuff, team meals, but ah it is a really coolplace to watch a basketball game actually.
(00:21):
So uh nice little benefit that we have.
certainly looks at it and I'm excited to talk to you.
I appreciate the real reason you're here for to help educate people, but I'm excited totalk to you about your conference.
And one thing I'm constantly telling young people about is like, when you get out into theMidwest, these D3 facilities are pretty wild.
(00:43):
I've been in a number of D1 gyms that don't hold a candle to where you're sitting rightnow.
Yeah, we're very fortunate.
The Falcon Center is hands down one of the best facilities.
I've had the opportunity to coach in, let alone work in.
I've spent a lot of time in the Northeast, and it's in Division I facilities also.
And honestly, this is probably bar none the best one I've been in.
(01:06):
pretty wild.
I really value uh your on and off court perspective on a lot of things.
But you're going through a really unique experience as a coach that I kind of want to shedlight on.
It's not every day that a team finishes in the middle of the pack of their conference andthen looks up and everyone that finished ahead of them was in the NCAA turn.
(01:36):
Right.
You're you're in a unique situation, especially at the Division three level where the whyact has essentially become, you know, the basketball murderers row.
Then we talk about your actual regular season.
You beat two final four teams.
have so like, I'm curious to just be in the mind of a head coach who is kind of stillfighting that fight to escape the quote middle of the pack, but is doing it in.
(02:06):
the elite division three conference.
How do you balance those two things?
uh I mean, you have to get your players to kind of buy into it.
uh We sell it during recruiting.
You don't really understand what you're going to go through on a Wednesday and a Saturdayuntil you go through it on a Wednesday and a Saturday.
You know, you can look at your schedule and you've got two top 10 teams that are on yourschedule that you got to go on the road and play.
(02:31):
uh It's the most difficult and the most rewarding slash best thing I've done in mycoaching career.
uh This conference is...
Incredible you go into it every week.
You got to take it one game at a time it's 14 game conference season but go in one game ata time with it and um You know each team is so unique and so different that each game plan
(02:52):
has to be just as unique and different So it's a lot of time that goes into it eh But ourplayers they get it They understand it the level that you have to come with at it with uh
if you don't show up It shows in a box score and people look at that score and they'relike
But every night across the board, men's and women's side, we've had multiple Final Fourteams.
(03:14):
think Platteville Men played for a national championship last year and we had two thatwere in the Final Four this year.
Like you said, five that made the tournament, which in the Division Three landscape ispretty crazy because you've only got, I Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so we get five teams in and there's I think only 20 or 23 at larges or somethinglike that.
(03:34):
So we take up a good chunk of it.
Um, but it is, it's a, it's a gauntlet every single night.
And I think you also get to a point where you look at scores and you're like, yeah.
Like the number one team in the conference lost to the quote unquote, like the eight C inthe conference.
And you're like, yeah, like I believe it.
You know, when you and I first crossed paths, you were an assistant at St.
(03:58):
John Fisher and I was an assistant at Union.
And we would play really competitive games against one another.
And I can think about what the recruiting pitch was like on my end, having the opportunityto play teams like you guys, and you guys were winning the Empire Eight, competing in
those games with you.
But then also trying to sell our kids on, we haven't won the Liberty League and we stillgotta try to build a team to win.
(04:22):
the Liberty League and balancing those two things.
I say that because you just alluded to, you know, what that cell is like in yourrecruiting process.
Obviously your style of play, I mean, realistically reflects a bit of what you did as aplayer.
A lot of pace and space, a lot of three point shooting.
So I know you're comfortable with that part of the cell, but are you comfortable kind oflike walking us through, like, what is it like when you get like a really talented kid
(04:48):
that you really want and they're sitting in your office?
What is your messaging to them?
We talk a lot about that if you're competing for a WIAC title, you're going to compete atthe national level.
ah And we are close.
ah I think that we use that fact of, you can really go build something and do something.
(05:08):
know, the last time River Falls was in the Unsaid Tournament, I think was 2015, 2016.
So, you know, it's been about 10 years.
ah And we've been close.
We've had some teams that, you know, have pushed the button on the Unsaid Tournament in,you know, the last 10 years, but...
You really try to just get them to commit to like buying into doing something that hasn'tbeen done in 10 years, which, you know, as a player, it's a little bit more of a
(05:33):
challenging road, I guess, compared to go into a team that routinely is there.
And it's hard to get there, you know, and I know it's you get there one year doesn't meanyou're gonna get there the next year.
So you really just try to sell them on, you know, doing something that hasn't been done ina while and kind of you can hang your hat on you were the one that did it.
Your class was the one that did it.
(05:55):
You said something that really resonated with me just now.
um I have always felt like if we're looking sheerly at the caliber of the character of thekid that we're recruiting, I've always felt like there's a difference between a kid that
wanted to be a part of something that was already built or a kid that was like, dude, Ihave an opportunity to get into the ground floor of something.
(06:15):
This could be like really special.
Have you identified like some characteristics in some of those kids that you've recruitedto River Falls?
They're like, that kid.
that thing that I'm really interested in.
Like what does that look like to you?
Yeah, a lot of them come from, I think, successful high school programs.
So they kind of already know what it takes.
(06:36):
We have a player from Iowa who won three state titles in four years or something likethat.
So she kind of understands the work that it's going to take.
She's in the gym three, four, five times a week during the season when she's allowed to bewith us.
So that, think, like people who
Naturally want to win or are accustomed to winning You know, you don't take losing theydon't take losing streaks as well as somebody who maybe comes from a high school program
(07:04):
That was that struggled or is in a really tough, you know situation in a conference and souh You know, I think that's something that we look for is success at the high school level
just because you know winning winning's hard and you've got to be able to have playersthat Know what it takes to win uh and you know
It's not that all players don't want to win.
(07:25):
It's just you do have to do a little bit extra, especially when you're trying to getthere.
You have to build habits and culture that way.
Absolutely and on the subject of uh building those habits I've also found that sometimesthere are background characteristics that help identify like which kids have those habits
(07:46):
what kind of family they're from What kind of you know talent and work ethic they have no,that's okay
That's how quiet and peaceful the facility is.
Nobody knows you're there.
(08:06):
That was amazing.
No, don't worry.
No, we'll edit it out, no worries.
uh On the subject of bringing in the right kind of kids, on the subject of bringing in theright kind of kids and the right high school fit, I think about our own backgrounds.
You played at Cornell.
(08:26):
um I have to imagine the typical Cornell freshman looks a bit different.
and comes from maybe a different background than the typical River Falls freshmen.
You have talked with me off air about some of the differences and financially what is sortof creating challenges in higher ed.
(08:51):
And I would love to pick your brain a little bit about it if you're comfortable.
I'm looking behind you at this facility and I'm talking to you, knowing your experienceand I'm struggling to believe
that this is a state school.
Yeah.
Like, is that also part of your conversation and is that like that level of access?
(09:16):
Is that also driving some of these high school kids towards you?
Yeah, the facility doesn't hurt, right?
Like my former boss and I joked that like if the facility wasn't what it is, like there'sa good chance like we're not here, right?
And that goes like across the board, our offices, the weight room, locker room situation,like it's gorgeous.
All the athletic complexes are right here, like hockey's right next door to us in the samebuilding, indoor track is here, football's across the parking lot.
(09:41):
Like, so the facility, yeah, but I mean.
who were able to go recruit, the type of athlete that were able to go recruit.
Yeah, it's a little different than when I was at Cornell.
know, grades are very, very important.
Our team has a cumulative GPA of a 3.7.
(10:01):
So they're very, very, very, very good students.
But on recruiting calls and when I'm talking to coaches, my first question is no longerwhat's their GPA and what are their test scores.
It matters, but.
It's not the end all be all.
at Union, I'm sure you went through kind of the same talk with people.
um But the cost to go here um compared to some of the other schools in our area, theprivate schools, um you can't really beat it, um what you're going to pay for and get a
(10:34):
great education in the process.
um We also recruit a lot of athletes that have plans to go to grad school.
um
So like that plays a huge part, you know, the cost of a YX school for an in-stateresident, it's gonna be, you know, roughly 17, $18,000 and that's with no financial aid,
(10:54):
no scholarships, no nothing.
So actually we've had 10 players graduate in the last two years and seven of them arecurrently in grad school.
Yeah, so that kind of, yeah.
education.
and I think you're seeing that a lot with more and more people.
(11:16):
Like they go to grad school for occupational therapy, PT, PA.
Those are some of the common ones that we have on our roster.
So that's, you know, a question that we ask in recruiting, like what's your major, right?
Like, or what are you looking to do?
And people tell us like, oh, I want to go be an occupational therapist.
It's like, well, you got to go to grad school for occupational therapy, right?
(11:37):
So we have a great exercise science program that prepares people and
You know, we've got, I think one who is applying to grad school now, she's gonna graduatenext year, and then one who's, you know, in grad school currently, occupational therapy.
But that's definitely a factor.
oh It's like weird as it sounds, but people definitely talk about that when they're goingthrough the recruiting process with us.
(11:59):
Well, even think about what this looked like when we were in school.
I feel like the price of higher ed has literally doubled at the elite privates since wewere in school.
is, know, not to turn this into a financing higher education podcast, but I will admitthat uh my stomach turned on itself when you told me that in-state tuition was $17,000 a
(12:23):
year because I know what union's tuition is and Cornell's tuition is and like,
Even Kinesius, prides itself, where I last was, prides itself on being an accessibleprivate college is double what you just said in state, that's why it was.
Are there ever moments where you sort of look at that and you see the experience thatthese kids that are your players have access to and are like, wow, I spent a lot of money
(12:49):
on college.
Oh, every single day, every single day, I'm like, I would not change my experience foranything.
Like I loved Cornell.
I would go back and do it again in a heartbeat.
Like the people I met there, my coaching staff, like my teammates, like I had a blast inmy four years there.
I wouldn't change any of it, but yeah, I look at the cost and yeah, it's like, you're justlike, man, like I really spent like that money to go there.
(13:13):
Like I loved it.
It afforded me so many great opportunities, but then.
You know, you come to all the WAC schools, really.
They all offer very unique experiences.
We're all different in our own way.
But like here at River Falls, like it's a small-ish campus.
You know, we have roughly 5,000 students, you know, so you're not going to run into thesame people every day, but you're not going to feel overwhelmed with 20.
(13:36):
I went to school with 20,000 students.
Like that was a lot.
Now that I'm looking back on it, I'm like, yeah, it's a lot of people, but yeah, you'regoing to get the smaller class sizes, like really tailored to you.
uh TA sessions or office hour sessions and uh you really get to know your professors.
You really get to know everybody that's in the athletic department.
uh The affordability is, you know, I don't even like know how to put it into words.
(14:01):
Like I think it's great.
I think it's great that state college or state tuition in our league has stayed what it isuh just because it does give people the opportunity to go, you know, fulfill their dreams,
right?
Like
If you're gonna pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for an undergrad degree, you're notgonna be able to afford to go to grad school or med school or whatever it may be that you
(14:22):
wanna do in your path in life.
so, yeah, the cost here and people get their financial aid packages and it's not a stickershock.
When I was at St.
John Fisher, that was part of it.
And we were on the more affordable side uh of a private school at Fisher and people wouldlook at it and they're like, I can't go there, I can't afford it.
(14:43):
Well, there's another angle to what you're saying that if I'm just talking about strategicrecruiting and trying to field the most talented character team that also fits what I want
to do basketball wise.
The other thing I think about, Shelby, is, you know, if we got a scholarship kid totransfer to union, it was because that individual had a family that could afford union.
(15:07):
Whereas I feel like you have an opportunity to...
financially with scholarship institutions right now with, you know, the financial aid youhave.
Is that stuff that your league runs into?
Because I also think it's important for like, I've always, just so you have thisbackground, I always talk to parents and players about how like, it's not a pyramid the
(15:31):
way you think it is.
Like the top of D3 is better than the bottom of D2 competitively.
So if you can make the finances even, is that something you're experiencing?
Yeah, I think if you look at our league last year, every single one of us had at least onetransfer that was, you know, in the rotation, whether they started or not.
um We at River Falls have this next year, we're going to have two, four of them that wereat a scholarship school.
(15:57):
And we've graduated, you know, a couple that were at a scholarship school in previousyears that made immediate impacts.
But yeah, it's definitely something that allows us to go recruit someone who may have
offers at a Division II school and it's like, you know, weakened with a financial aidpackage and academics and everything, like, arguably will be more affordable for you.
(16:19):
Like, there's something that river falls that like textbooks are included in your tuition,which I spent a lot of money on textbooks in college, right, with my...
Yeah, with...
thousand dollars a year, if not more.
Right, like I was a government major, I was buying 10 to 20 books a semester, like it wasinsane.
So like that's an included cost here and like some schools may be like, yeah, we'll likepay for your books.
(16:44):
And it's like, well, that's already included in your tuition that's here.
So, you know, it definitely allows us to be a little more aggressive in recruiting.
You know, there's no like, like they might be too good for us.
It's like, no, like let's shoot them a text or call and like maybe we're interested, likemaybe they'll be interested.
Maybe we have a major program that they're looking at or.
you know, maybe we're just close enough to home, whereas the other schools are looking atare too far from home.
(17:08):
So, you know, we will go reach on a few and if we don't, you know, if they end up goingsomewhere else, like that's fine.
But you know, the transfer portal is what it is now.
And so you build relationships with people along the way in recruiting.
And uh I think you've kind of seen that in our league as well, like players who go playsomewhere and
(17:29):
end up transferring back either to a school that had recruited them previously or thatthey know through the process.
So it definitely, I think our league has gotten better actually since the transfer portalopened just because it um allows people a second chance, an option to go play somewhere
else.
And like I said, we at our school can put together some financial aid packages that areeven not like that are affordable, schools affordable for people.
(17:59):
So, I mean, I appreciate you sharing in as much detail.
I feel like a lot of people just got behind the scenes look at like what's it actuallylike to the strategy of recruiting at a school like yours.
I mean, it's been so literally in each of the last four seasons, you guys have gotten thegame better in conference.
So I know how hard it is to build.
It's been so cool to see you guys knocking on the door each year.
(18:22):
And I know that's gonna continue building for you.
If you are ready, we can toss on our hypothetical.
lab coats and educate the masses about the recruiting process.
Are you ready, Shelby Line?
All right.
So I want to start and you you probably have some easy examples to cling to because we'recoming off of a live weekend as we record this.
(18:46):
If you've never heard of a kid before, let's bounce back and forth how a kid potentiallygets on your radar.
I'll start with an easy one and then you can fill in the blanks from here.
yeah.
I have seen a really good practice recently where reputable AAU coaches will kind of massemail college coaching staffs just be like, hey, here's where my team's going to be this
(19:07):
weekend.
Here's my roster.
And then they would just write two or three sentences about each kid.
And if that's an AAU program that I've recruited from before, then I can make a note of,yeah, in my downtime, or if there's not a specific kid I'm watching, I'm going to make
sure I see that team.
That is like a really good one for me.
What's a good one for you?
If a kid wants to be noticed by you and you have no idea who they are, what's a good onefor you?
(19:30):
We do like read and watch every email that comes through.
It might take me a few days to get to it, but we'll if it's a live period coming up likewe just had and they're going to be at the tournament that we're at, it's like, yeah, you
got to go check them out, right?
uh The AAU Coach one, you know, we take a lot of stock in that one just because I coachAAU basketball and so I've gotten to know a lot of people throughout the years um with it
(19:57):
and I've been in the area now for five or six years.
ah The state tournament is a good starting place for us as well.
Maybe with some younger kids.
We'll go to the Minnesota State Tournament.
ah You know, if we have some downtime, we'll go check out.
I'll go look at a program that I've never heard of before.
And it's like, let's go see who's at this court.
(20:17):
ah But I mean, emailing us is always, you know, I know people hate mass emails, but ifyou're able to tailor it and it's like two, three, four sentences of like, that's what I'm
looking for.
That's what I'm looking to major in.
from here, here's a highlight film, you know, we'll watch it and if there's any interest,like, we'll go check it out.
that this was your experience as well.
(20:39):
um But I was basically trained.
Like when my original mentors, when I was trying to break into coaching, basically toldme, I don't care how tedious it is, you watch film from every email that you're sent.
Was that consistent with your upbringing?
Yep.
I think like when I was at Cornell, like my job was to handle every email that came in,whether they were able to play at that level or not.
(21:06):
And you watch all of it, you make notes on all of it, it all goes into your recruitingdatabase.
And so everybody knows.
So this is, I think, really, really good hygiene for any parents, players, coaches thatare listening.
um We are sticking to a schedule when we're on the road.
We don't have the downtime that you think we do.
(21:27):
So any way you can hit us in advance with film is gonna help.
Obviously building relationships with AAU, I'm always gonna favor the coaches that I know,especially if I already have a pipeline there.
And then in that downtime, just like you were talking about, coach,
in that downtime, then we're going to check out the unknown.
Then we're going to see what's out there.
But would you agree that your odds are elevated if you take the initiative?
(21:49):
Like if you try to get on that schedule beforehand?
Yeah, absolutely.
Like if you're talented enough, like we'll find you eventually, whether it's through wordof mouth or, or what, you know, like coaches talk on the recruiting trail.
Um, but yeah, like reaching out is by far like the best way to get even on an interestlist.
So I want to divide the next category, right?
(22:11):
Because we're not all looking for the exact same thing, right?
I know the way your team plays, so it's probably going to matter to you that the wingsyou're recruiting can drill threes, right?
But without being overly specific, we're looking for guards.
A kid that you see live that impresses you at the guard position does blank.
(22:35):
What do you think?
You gotta be a good screener.
I think that's a very underrated thing that has, I don't want say has gone away.
ah But you know, if we're running a set or something, right?
To get a post player, a layup, like, and you don't set that good screen, then the play'sdead.
God damn it.
I thought I turned the timer off.
(22:57):
ah
so first criteria, small to big screens is something we're looking for.
like we look at we screen a lot in our offense and so you've got to be a good screener.
uh Post entry passes, we play a lot through our forwards.
Our forwards are great passers.
So we get them the ball uh high post short corner.
You're like, can you make a post entry pass?
ah And then like this is going to sound incredibly boring.
(23:21):
But like, do you just keep the game simple?
Right?
Do you just if two defenders go with a cutter, do you try to feed the ball into thatcutter or do you hit?
the open corner three, right?
So just can you make the right play?
And then like with guards, like obviously can you handle it?
um Can you, you know, one to two dribbles create a shot, you know, basic things like that,just overall skill.
(23:47):
But it's really like, is your IQ, like what's your IQ?
Can you set a good screen?
Can you make the right play, the simple play, right?
Like basketball, the simple game.
Like I don't know, I say that a lot on the sidelines, like simple, right?
Keep it simple.
um
But yeah, those are some of the things we'll look for in guards.
I want to ask you two follow-ups for guards specifically because when I talk to parents,this is one that comes out a lot.
(24:12):
I try to explain to them that when it comes to the way they're being evaluated by collegecoaches, there's kind of a resume and a cover letter portion of it.
And that if I see you do a sick dribble move and I see really consistent shooting form,that's cover letter material.
But then I need to see your decision-making and how you handle adversity.
Is that sort of what you're alluding to with that smaller stuff in terms of
(24:35):
Screening, actions between the actions, can you keep it simple?
Is that resume fodder?
Yeah, like you're gonna hit three threes or four threes and a half like you're gonna getour attention right but it's like Do you?
Can you make the right read?
Are you gonna be able to handle like turnovers are inevitable?
Right?
Like I don't think there's ever been a basketball game where you haven't turned the ballover as a team Right, like you're gonna miss shots like your reaction to those things how
(25:01):
you react to your teammates like who make those mistakes?
Like that.
Do you try to help your teammate who it's like?
try to force a pass it's like no no no like swing it one more and then it'll be an easierentry pass right like those little things that go in between different plays ah but you
know i think scoring comes naturally a lot to people and it's the smaller things that keepyou know that will keep our attention
(25:29):
love the way you said that, because a lot of times when they get to the collegiate level,they can't score as easily and it breaks them mentally because they don't have the other
things down yet.
Yeah.
My second question is harkening on your personal experience, which is that you also coachAAU.
That's a D3 thing.
If people are unfamiliar with that, D3 coaches can coach club in the off season.
(25:54):
I'm imagining that, especially because at the AAU level, everyone wants to be a guard,regardless of whether or not they should be.
That's just how it works.
You probably have some consistent messaging in angry Shelby voice that's like,
you know, guys, what are you doing?
um What would you say is like the most common teaching point you're giving to guards,especially when they're facing more competitive teams in live play?
(26:19):
Um, we get pressed a lot, right?
Everyone presses an AU and it's ball fakes and don't hide.
Um, you know, like step to your catch and then like, I'll say it again, but like simple,make simple passes.
Um, you don't need to try to thread the needle with things all the time.
Um, and then just don't over dribble, right?
(26:42):
Like those are probably the three biggest things that I'm coaching a 16 new team rightnow.
see it a lot, turnovers that are caused by, like we don't ball fake with things or we tryto dribble through and it's like, no, if you just go here and then we're able to go uh and
then also shoot it when you're open.
Don't try to always like go get a layup again.
(27:03):
Like I know this stuff seems like incredibly simple, but like shoot it when you're open,right?
Like that's the best shot we're to get in a possession and you're not shooting it.
You know, we try to drive the lane and all of a sudden it's a jump ball, it's going theother way.
my God, that honestly, AAU traffic, and I'm from downstate, AAU traffic is worse thanManhattan traffic, in my opinion.
(27:24):
When I watch somebody drive one on two, it is gut wrenching.
because like, you'll see it over and over and over again.
And you can kind of tell which AAU programs drill offense versus help defense and whichones don't by the game of tackle football that ensues on live weekends.
So I...
(27:45):
I appreciate you sharing that.
On the subject of simplicity, switching to forwards, um I am always surprised by how fewyoung people realize that keeping it simple as a forward is the easiest way to get
noticed.
Drop step finish with each hand, showcasing that you can actually take physicality, sealwell.
(28:06):
And then the biggest one, which kills me that more forwards don't take this seriously,
Just being well conditioned.
If you can beat somebody down the floor, seal and finish with either hand, that'softentimes a big attention getter at the collegiate level.
What else do you look for when you see bigs?
uh Their footwork, right?
Like it doesn't have to be super complex.
(28:28):
It can be simple, like he said.
But do they have good footwork?
If someone's on their back, do they turn and face up?
If they're getting fronted, do they know to seal, right?
Like tell the guards to swing the ball and seal.
uh And then we look at their passing ability as well, right?
Do you try to go up through a double?
um If there's help middle, are you able to kick it to the weak side for a three?
(28:48):
ah We've been very fortunate with our forwards the last couple years, like they can throwa skip pass on a dime to the opposite corner to the point where I even still like this,
she just is graduated, but for four years I watched her throw skip passes across and everytime I was just like, I don't know how that got there, but it did.
uh So I think being able to pass, not even out of a double, but just out of traffic.
(29:10):
That's something that we look for.
And then offensive rebounding, right?
Do you attack the glass?
Do you use?
If you're undersized height wise, do you use your feet and your ability to be a little bitquicker to go to the offensive glass or do you just hang around the free throw line and
hope it bounces to you?
And then you nailed it.
Like the ability to run the floor.
It's not even like, I don't need you to hit like a trail three.
(29:33):
I need you to go sprint and draw two or three defenders.
know, we, talk a lot about that in our program.
Like we'll watch film or even like in practice, we'll stop practice and we'll point itout.
Like you ran the floor, which allowed.
an open three to happen because you, you drew, yeah, like you drew two defenders, right?
And you running caused the weak side to help.
(29:54):
And so we were able to skip the ball across and that leads to a three.
It's like, that's an assist for you in my book.
In my opinion, the two most underrated qualities you can have as a big is consistentlyrunning the floor and having great vision opposite when you peak middle.
So to your point about skip passes, my last year at Union before the COVID shutdown year,my twist would be 2019, 2020, our center, Ellie Vaughn, finished second on the team in
(30:25):
assist and all of them were.
I'm getting doubled, I take one bounce out of the kill zone and I skip opposite.
And I remember film sessions with the guards where based on the way our offense moves on apost entry, there should have been someone where Ellie threw it.
And I remember me and another coach on this team, uh Coach Mike Smith, who's volunteeringat the time, just saying to her, throw it.
(30:48):
And if somebody's not there, it's their fault.
Like if you have the ability,
to create that space and make that pass.
I think those are the two big things.
So I'm glad we're on the same page about that.
Before we move on to the next thing, I know every coach has their own, we'll call itmiscellaneous category.
I had a hyper obsession with like the high-fivers and the communicators.
(31:12):
I was like, want every single one of those kids.
Is there something extracurricular that like always stands out to you when you seesomebody play, regardless of position?
Yeah, I think it's the one who like their teammate will like hang their head and it's theone who walks over and is like, no, no, no, like you're okay.
Like the pass, like it's sailed out of your hand or like it doesn't matter that you airballed.
It's like next play, next play, next play.
(31:33):
ah So I think that's kind of ours because you know, basketball is so quick and you'renever going to play a game where you're perfect.
Like it's just, it's not going to happen.
And so.
the player who understands that and recognizes that and is always telling their teammate,like, it's okay, like we have to move on, we have to move on, you can't let it linger.
Like, that's kind of what I think will probably be like my miscellaneous one, the onewho's always getting their teammate like quickly to move on from the next or from the
(32:00):
mistake, right?
It's funny you talked earlier uh in the first chapter of this, if you will, aboutrecruiting winners.
I feel like what you just described is a winning habit.
That's what winning teams do.
They keep their teammates locked in.
So, that's awesome.
Okay, so you found some guards you liked, you found some forwards you liked.
(32:20):
Now you're gonna do your initial outreach.
You're gonna talk to their AAU coaches, you're gonna talk to their families.
Before you even talk to the kid, let's backtrack.
What are the things you wanna learn?
when you sort of do your quote unquote reference checks, maybe you talk to a high schoolcoach, talk to their program director, somebody, what do you want to learn about that kid?
(32:40):
uh I mean, are they a good person?
Right?
Like I think that's pretty standard for us across the board.
uh You know, we are still interested in their GPA and all of that stuff, their academicinterest.
If we don't have their major, it's kind of an uphill battle for us.
Right?
uh Let's see.
What else?
Do they want to stay close to home, away from home?
(33:02):
Are they open to pretty much anything?
uh What are they looking like?
Just how are they to coach?
Do they take feedback well?
How do they respond to mistakes?
Do they practice hard?
ah Do they get extra reps in the gym?
um You know, I know practice is not all the teams are able to practice two, three, fourtimes a week, but when you have them in the gym for two, three hours a week, like do they
(33:27):
go hard?
Because you're going to come here.
Yeah, because you're going to come to the college level and like if you don't practicehard, like it's going to be a long two to three hours for you.
um
So just kind of that stuff, you know, mainly like we have a lot of people who like tospend time in the gym here.
So it's like, do you actively want to get better by yourself?
(33:47):
Cause that's one of the challenges of division three basketball is we're so limited towhat we can do with them in the summer and out of season.
It's like, you have to be internally motivated to do it by yourself.
So is that person going to go, you know, any time of the day and go get up.
300 shots or go work on ball handling stuff or take a teammate in there with them to gowork on some stuff.
(34:12):
So that's the biggest thing, I think, is are you going to be able to do it by yourself?
You mentioned several things in your response just now that if I were to categorize whatyou just said, category A would be, does the kid check my boxes in terms of being a kid
(34:32):
that I wanna coach?
But then there's this other category of, are we the right fit for the kid?
Would they respond to my type of coaching?
Are they the right academic fit for us?
You know, and I think that it's really important to point out to our listeners that likeat every level, these coaches are doing their homework early on about, you know, what the
(34:55):
most effective course of action would be because they're not interested in wasting your ortheir time.
And, you know, that kind of gives us an opportunity now to pivot to like a conversationwith the kid.
Obviously.
You know, a typical.
entry phone call to a kid is going to be the same across the board because a typical phonecall introducing yourself to anyone is going to be the same across the board.
(35:21):
But what I'd rather learn about, especially from someone that's had your experience at theD1 and D3 level is, you know, are there specific things you're looking for on that first
call from that kid that would resonate with you or that would make you go, you know what?
Yeah, I want to keep building a relationship with this kid.
Like, what are you looking for?
uh Can you hold a conversation?
(35:43):
Like do you give us more than one word answers?
uh A lot of conversations, uh sometimes like you're pulling teeth trying to get answers,right?
It's like, are you doing a spring sport?
Yeah.
Okay, great.
you know, so can you hold a conversation?
Do you ask questions?
(36:04):
uh You know, or are you just...
uh
Talking on the phone, I know at 16 17 years old is hard.
I admittedly I was the worst Worst student athlete to recruit if it was an area code.
I didn't recognize like I wasn't answering it like Like I just I'm like, I don't want totalk to people on the phone.
(36:24):
So
the Pacific Northwest.
How many area codes did you even know?
Like three, honestly.
And they were all in the state of Washington and one from Oregon.
So, yeah, if my dad wasn't in the car sometimes when I was getting these phone calls, likeanswering it for me, like there's a good chance that I probably just wouldn't have
answered any of them.
So like I do understand that it is uncomfortable and it's awkward.
(36:46):
And so like, we try to do our best to mitigate that and, you know, ask good like ask youquestions and allow you to talk about yourself but.
On the flip side, like, do you ask us questions?
Can you hold a conversation?
Are you, you know, do you want to learn about our program?
Are you just on this call because someone told you that you had to be?
(37:09):
So those are some of the things.
I want to ask you a quick follow up.
I have a feeling just because of what I know about you and my conversation with youpreviously that I'm going to know your response, but I think it could be insightful for
listeners.
um You're going to be airing right after a podcast with uh Joe Jones, head coach on themen's side with Boston University.
(37:32):
And one of the things that he said on the podcast was, when I do these initial recruitingcalls, I always give parents a chance to talk.
and then I just let them go.
Because oftentimes, whatever they have to say will indicate whether or not this will be,no you're,
(38:03):
has its flaws.
It's all right.
So you're coming on right after this interview with Coach Jones.
And one of the things that he says in the interview is when he's on these initial callswith kids, he's open to letting the parents talk.
And one of his strategies is to just let them go and see what they say.
And what he said to me was sometimes, you you learn whether or not this kid is going to beright for you just based on what the parents say or if the parents are sort of too much
(38:29):
and overdo it.
I know, ah you know,
giving rules to the parents is oftentimes a hot button topic in recruiting, like hearingthat and knowing that you're coming right after that and we're talking about these calls,
what are your thoughts on parental involvement?
I think it's needed to a certain extent.
(38:49):
mean, they're 16, 17 years old.
Like when you're talking to them, like they don't know their financial situation fully.
Like, like they don't know like if they want to go far from school.
Like there are certain things that like their parents like that you do need help with,right?
Like still or like they may have no idea what they want to major in.
(39:10):
They may tell you something because it's like what their brother did or something and theyactually have no idea.
uh So I think parent involvement, like I think it's needed, it's necessary, but also youcan't, you know, it's a very fine line that they're going to have to tow because in six
months or eight months, whenever your kid goes off to college, like they're myresponsibility, right?
(39:31):
Like I need to know if they're having a problem or succeeding like from them.
I need to know the goods and the bads like from them.
I'm not going to get an email and say like, you know, why aren't you playing my kid?
It's like you can.
Like, no, like don't, please don't email me asking me that.
But I do think there has to be some sort of parental involvement, at least at the start.
(39:51):
uh And then, you know, I think my communication with parents decreases as we get into therecruiting process a little bit further with the student athlete.
Initially, or on like a first visit, parents will ask a lot of questions.
uh But as we get into it, right, if it's my second or third.
(40:12):
or a kid comes back to visit for a second time.
um It's usually more they're asking more questions and I'm going to try to keep theconversation focused on them more so than parents.
Parents, that's a strategy.
I've talked about this before, but like, wink, nudge, nudge.
If she's directing it towards the kids, let the kids go.
(40:35):
That's a, you know, that's, I'm not saying that's my sole interpretation of what you justsaid, Shelby.
I'm just saying, make sure you take that note.
um Okay, so now, relationship continues, and you know, it's rinse, repeat a lot of thetime.
Just because you saw a kid live once doesn't mean that's gonna be the only time you seehim live.
A lot of times you follow them up.
We want to see if they can do these things consistently, but let's flash forward.
(40:58):
Now we're going to kind of bring it to the home stretch, which is now they're visitingcampus.
um There is one piece in my recruiting data, which you, by the way, participated in.
So, you know, two years too late.
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
The piece of data that was most unanimously agreed on of any question I asked, I gave asurvey question on a scale of one to ten.
(41:23):
And the prompt was, when a visit is over, I ask my current players how the visit went withthe recruit.
And that got almost a 10 out of 10 average response.
And I think that surprised a lot of parents, especially parents that I've talked toworking with AAU programs, who just sort of assumed that, you know, it was a sales pitch
(41:45):
when they go on campus.
um Can you speak to...
some of the fit analysis that takes place when there's a campus visit happening.
Yeah, we schedule usually about 30 minutes with our players um on a visit, try to work itaround their class schedules so we can have as many of them as we can to meet the student
(42:06):
athlete that's on campus.
uh And we usually have it without their parents.
like, well, you know, our coaching staff will take the parents, grab a, you know, a seatoutside or a cup of coffee or walk around or something.
And yeah, I immediately ask.
players after the student athlete leaves campus, like, what'd you think?
Do you think they'd fit in?
(42:30):
From a basketball standpoint, don't worry.
Our players pretty much are like, you're gonna bring in people that are gonna help us,right?
But the biggest thing is, do they fit in?
Will they fit in the locker room with culture?
they gonna cause problems?
Did they talk?
Did they ask questions?
Or did they let you all do the talking?
And we have a very eclectic.
(42:52):
team, they're all over the place.
They love this place.
They love River Falls.
They love to talk about River Falls.
But I'm like, did you let them talk and answer questions?
I don't need to know entirely what you talked about because that's part of the reason whywe let them meet with the players.
Right, right.
I was in college.
You were in college.
There are things that happen that your coaching staff does not want to know.
(43:13):
uh And I think we take their feedback.
uh
you know, more so than I think we take ours, right?
Like if our players are like, absolutely not, like we're like not gonna fit, gonna causeproblems, ask really like off putting questions.
(43:35):
I take that into account and you know, maybe we don't recruit that player anymore.
I think that what you just shared is one of the most overlooked things by parents thatlike, oftentimes, especially when the culture is good, your veteran players want to
protect and preserve that culture.
And it's not like they walk into these 30 minute discussions, you know, with a threatdetector monitor on waiting to find something wrong with you.
(44:02):
But if all you do for a half hour is put up glaring red flags,
the kids that want to protect the culture are going to go into coach's office and be like,yo coach, no.
And we listen.
And you know, that doesn't mean you're not going to be a good fit anywhere, but it doesmean you might not be a good fit for us.
(44:23):
And you know, that does happen.
You know, one specific example I can think of is I had a kid whose opinion I really valuehosts a really talented guard and she came in my office the next morning and was like,
coach, all she wanted to do was go to parties.
And like we had practiced the next morning and I told her we weren't doing it and like shegot mad at me.
(44:45):
And like, I, like, I can't see this working well if that's how this was, you know, on hervisit.
That was enough for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, you also have to remember that like, we get them for, let's just say fourhours, right?
Like during the season, a couple hours of practice, film some workouts during the day.
(45:05):
They're with their teammates for the remaining 12, 15 hours a day, right?
Like in the dorms, off campus at your apartments, dining halls, locker room.
Like you are with your team more than you are with your coaching staff.
And so if you don't get...
you know, kind of an approval or a checkmark from players, right?
Like, I can love you as much as I want, but I'm only gonna spend a fine amount of timewith you, like, during the day.
(45:33):
you know, like, I may think that they're gonna be a good fit basketball-wise, but then wehave some players come in and they're like, like you said, like, all they wanted to do was
know about the drinking and the party scene, right?
And it's like, well, there is more to college than that, especially college basketball andcollege athletics.
My goal in bringing you on today was to basically go through all the minutia of what itactually looks like for the typical kid going through the process to typically get a
(46:03):
roster spot offer or a scholarship offer.
And I think that you just crushed that because, you know, where we can end is.
And then if that all goes well, you get an offer.
Most offers tend to happen in person on campus.
Now, that's not always the way it happens, but
There's a lot of coaches out there that want to feel this out.
So the first thing I say is thank you for helping me through this journey.
(46:28):
I feel like everything you said could be a one minute like PSA with that like NBC rainbowpeacock in the background being like the more you know, like every single thing you said
was like that.
So thank you for that.
I appreciate it.
Thanks.
I like what you do.
It's fun to listen.
Yeah.
(46:49):
Okay.
I let you go.
um I have been bothered repeatedly over the last two years by a member of your staff whoconsistently scares you and thinks of ways to startle you.
And I need to know for my own comfort, has revenge been exacted on this young lady yet?
(47:12):
Okay, yeah, so she was, she graduated uh last year.
She was a transfer student, uh ended up staying for her COVID year, got her masters.
So she's graduated and she was in my office.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was, was, it was a player.
So like she was in my office probably like three times a week, four times a week.
And like, I get scared like pretty easily.
(47:35):
Like I don't do horror movies, like none of that stuff, right?
So I just...
it's probably gotten worse because she has the incentive to it on to two other players.
uh one of them hid underneath my desk as i'm coming in.
this was a couple months ago.
i'm coming in, have my, you know, cup of coffee, minding my own business.
(47:56):
probably my fault because i didn't lock my door, but open my office, turn the lights on,and she's sitting underneath my desk and she just goes, boom, and i fell into, fall into
the wall.
I am like, what are you doing here?
Like almost dropped my coffee, which honestly would have been the most tragic part of thewhole thing.
And she is laughing and her teammate comes from around the corner.
(48:19):
They got it from two angles.
And I'm like, no one wanted to warn me.
Like nobody in this hallway wanted to warn me that they were sitting in there.
So.
So this is, I'm slightly bummed about your professional colleagues now because I have,I've texted you no fewer than a half dozen times being like, if you want me to help you
get, get these people back, I will do it.
(48:41):
So.
it started with a player.
Her name was Macy Nielsen.
I can't get on her too much because she's one of the best like peer scorers I've evercoached.
But Macy was the one that started it and then Jaya and Emily are the ones that havecontinued it and I'm very nervous for what's about to come for the next year.
So.
I have no idea how, but Macy, when you least expect it, whether it's like glitter in anenvelope or like snakes coming out of a Pringles can, we're gonna think of something.
(49:08):
ah
gonna center this.
I'm gonna tell her.
That said, this is a perfect place to wrap the extremely insightful and easily startledShelby Lyman.
Thank you so much again for making the time.
Appreciate you as always, and this was great.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Appreciate it.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!