August 4, 2025 • 40 mins
We discuss the importance of firebreaks for turkey hunting and habitat management, exploring the various types of firebreaks, their strategic uses, and practical tips for effective management.
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Resources: What would Lovett do? #124
00:00 – Intro
01:18 – Chitter chatter
02:00 – Choosing Firebreaks
04:00 – Wildlife Value of Planted Firebreaks
06:00 – Designing Firebreaks for Habitat & Access
08:00 – Common Misconceptions about Firebreaks
12:00 – Real-world Examples from the Field
20:00 – Regional Variation & Turkey Use
26:00 – Seasonal Management & Prescribed Fire
34:00 – Integrating Firebreaks into Larger Management Goals
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Produced & edited by Charlotte Nowak
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
you know serving that role as a firebreak really well but it's also a plant that's super attractive
(00:07):
and nutritious for deer and turkeys and it can serve that attraction purpose and sneak around
and find a you know a gobbler coming to it to strut in or something like that. I would guess
that the majority of the turkeys that I've killed I have used a fire break at some point in that hunt.
(00:33):
Welcome to Wild Turkey Science, a podcast made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow. I'm Dr. Marcus
Lashley, Professor of Wildlife Ecology at the University of Florida. And I'm Dr. Will Goolsby,
Professor of Wildlife Ecology and Management at Auburn University. We're both lifelong hunters
and devoted scientists who are passionate about hunting, managing, and researching wild turkeys.
(00:57):
In this podcast, we'll explore turkey research, speak to the experts in the field,
and address the difficult questions related to wild turkey ecology and management.
Our goal is to serve as your connection to Wild Turkey Science.
Yeah, you kidnapped us counted by about 12 seconds.
(01:23):
Oh, I was early?
Yeah, you know all those really crazy good ideas you just had.
Yeah.
Completely lost to the world.
Lost to the ether and I'll never remember them again either.
Yeah, so that one like grandiose point that would save turkeys completely that you just made,
(01:43):
can you repeat that?
You know that didn't come from my head.
You know, I did have a listener tell me recently that we talk too much at the start of these
episodes.
Well, I've had two listeners that told me that we didn't talk enough.
Well, that's what I told him too. I have heard people say that they enjoy the back and forth,
(02:06):
but he definitely did not.
He wants us to jump right in with both feet.
So, he wants us to not be listenable.
We already aren't for a lot of people.
He's just coming on and he wants to get his advice and he's eager to get back out there
and put it on the ground, I guess.
Yeah, well maybe we could get Charlotte to start putting a stopper in there.
(02:30):
Yeah.
When does the good stuff start?
Charlotte, if you could mark that in the YouTube episode so that folks can just skip ahead to that
point.
My only concern is that on some episodes, they may never get to that point.
Yeah, it'd be funny if she had a couple of, like in an episode, she puts the point way
out at the end.
(02:51):
She's like, hey guys, where did you get on topic?
Yeah, did you guys ever say anything worth listening to?
So, this is going to be a good one and another really management relevant one that was driven
by a listener request.
Yeah, and we get a lot of questions about it and talk about it and it's super relevant
(03:14):
to everything we talk about from a habitat management standpoint, for sure.
And we've never really put a lot of focus on it.
It's just one of those logistical things that you don't think about talking about unless
somebody asks you to.
Yeah, exactly.
So, do you want to break the ice or do you want me to?
Well, I was going back to the emails to see if I could find the listener so that I could
(03:36):
give him credit for that.
It was from a listener, Ben Allgood, and he said, I'm trying to condense it down.
He wrote a good bit.
Basically, he asked for input on when to use green firebreaks, disc firebreaks, blown in,
(03:56):
and so forth, so that would be helpful.
Nice.
So, when do you use different firebreaks and why?
I think that's a great, great question to dive in on.
Do you want me to start?
Yeah.
Okay, looks like you're still checking email or something.
(04:18):
Well, I'm making sure I turn it off so it doesn't ding the whole time like it just did.
Yeah.
Well, I think this is a great question.
It's one of those times that a lot of creativity, there's a lot of slack, I think, as Craig
said, in this and what you're using and why and where.
So, what I normally think, I mean, principally, the firebreak has to be good at what it's
(04:44):
supposed to do, which is make it, you know, make fire stay where it's supposed to be so
that you can burn safely.
So, that is the key consideration first, but the type of firebreak that you use can
vary quite substantially.
Sometimes, on a side, you may not need one.
Maybe you already have a firebreak because there's a big lake there or something, right?
(05:07):
Like, or, you know, utilize features that are already inherent to the property.
Maybe it's a road or a ditch or whatever.
Maybe it's just a hardwood forest and you don't have conditions where that'll even burn.
Yeah, exactly.
Like, you've got lots of ways that can be, but when you're deliberate with them, I like
(05:32):
to consider, I think one thing that's not considered enough, I would say, I guess, that
comes to mind to me immediately is those firebreaks can provide some really great opportunity
for hunting and also for productivity.
And I think, you know, trying to integrate them into the landscape so that they make
(05:54):
the property more huntable and they potentially add to productivity of your turkey population
are key considerations that you should think about.
Some ways that you can do that, you know, he mentioned in that message a green firebreak.
Well, what does that mean?
(06:14):
Well, usually what we're talking about is you might disc a fire line.
Maybe that's in a, you know, down along a roadside or daylighted road.
Ideally, we're getting full sun and part of it.
It could be a woods road or, you know, a fifth row and thin or, you know, something like
(06:37):
that where you're disking an area and then you're going to sow it to something that's
attractive.
I really love, you know, like a firebreak down the edge of a woodlot where you're going
to get high turkey use to top sow that with crimson clover or something like that.
(06:58):
And it can be, it can serve multiple purposes, right?
So in that case, that green firebreak, the plants when they're green and growing are
not flammable.
So you can burn right off of it or stop fire when it hits it.
So it's serving that role as a firebreak really well, but it's also a plant that's
(07:21):
super attractive and nutritious for deer and turkeys, you know, and it can serve that
attraction purpose and, you know, can be an excellent deer stand on it, you know, that
kind of thing and sneak around and find, you know, a gobbler coming to it to strut in or
something like that.
Yeah.
You know, that's really what I think about when I'm thinking about a green firebreak.
(07:45):
Yes.
We're deliberately placing those in a place that's key for hunting purposes or maybe
productivity depending on what you're doing.
And you're deliberately using it as a firebreak when the vegetation's too green to burn.
Yeah.
I like that.
I really like what you said too about how it, how firebreaks can facilitate hunting.
(08:09):
Because I sit, I'm here sitting here thinking about it and it's like, I would guess that
the majority of the turkeys that I've killed, I have used a firebreak at some point in that
hunt.
Yeah, even if it's just for sneaking around in the woods to get in position, but, you
know, setting up on them, especially if you've got something in there that's good, you know,
(08:33):
good eating and has good structure for strutting in, like that can be a really effective way.
Yeah.
One of my favorite food plots, if you will, that I have ever hunted during the deer season
anywhere, it was a really creative idea.
And I'm sure we'll get into more of these as we kind of walk through this and think
(08:54):
about it more.
But there's an upland pine stand, you know, kind of starts coming down the hill, transitions
into hardwoods.
And then you've kind of got a hardwood, like a hardwood slope.
And then it went into like a hardwood flat.
And then right there at the bottom of the slope where it transitions into the flat,
there was a firebreak there.
(09:15):
The landowner opened up the firebreak.
So it was still just a lane that was separating the upland area that he burned from the bottom
one hardwood forest, but he made it like three or four times wider than he needed to with
a dozer.
And then that ended up being a clover like strip food plot and it was 300 yards long
(09:37):
and it joined the uplands to the bottomland area.
Right.
So you already see where this is going and you could imagine how much of a stopover point
it was.
But I remember like several afternoons and mornings sitting on that strip food plot and
having like multiple deer and turkeys all in view, just lined up down the food plot
(09:58):
at once.
I mean, at one point, I remember I was hunting out there and there was like a nice 110 inch
ish, like three and a half year old eight point out there and a couple of turkeys, a
doe group with a couple of fawns in it.
And it was just like, it was like Noah's Ark, you know, down through there.
(10:19):
And so that lane was not only helping them burn, but it was also serving that purpose
as well.
Well, and that's also, it's often conducive to, I was saying sneaking around, but you're
kind of alluding to the same thing, like you can get up and down out of the stand with
deer in the plot or, you know, get set up on it a little down the way from a turkey
(10:41):
that's already in it.
Like you're, you know, it's giving you a nice vantage point to kind of sneak up on
them and get in position when you already know they're present.
Right.
So I definitely think that can be really effective.
And, you know, a lot of people were doing that.
I see that kind of stuff done, you know, uh, really commonly on the landscape.
(11:05):
But I think the thing I'm trying to impress upon you is not just taking advantage of it
somewhere and making a food plot, but be strategic about it and try to set that up so
that it's maximizing the huntability of it.
Yeah.
So, you know, just be aware that that can be an effective food plot.
(11:28):
And even in the case, you know, let's say you're going to burn at a time when the stuff
that you had planted is fallow and it's still flammable, what's still setting you up to
go in and disc, you know, a line really easily, right.
It's making it logistically easier for you.
And I've seen people do that too, where they're just coming along the edge of a food plot
(11:52):
and putting in a disc line or, uh, you know, something along those lines to make sure that
it's going to hold the fire and it's just setting it up for you to do that easily.
Right.
Right.
So one of the ones that I saw that I've seen that was so effective, uh, there there's a,
(12:12):
in this particular location, there's a, a CRP field that was originally what it got
planted as, and now it's just managed as early succession and perpetuity.
And there's a couple of hundred yard long strip that's probably 15 yards wide, 20 yards
wide, that's planted in a cereal grain and, and a clover mix.
(12:37):
And the others, the others, well, I guess right along is a, a road where, you know,
where they drive in and out and then it goes transitions into this upwind hardwood forest.
And it's just been such an effective setup because, you know, of the way that it's positioned
(12:57):
on the landscape, there's excellent, uh, roosting right next to it.
There's excellent nesting and brooding cover directly adjacent and bedding for deer during
the deer season.
And it's just set up so nice.
Right.
And it's playing such an important role because they're burning really frequently in that
(13:17):
field and it's allowing them to do that easily.
But, uh, you know, it's set up such that it's really effective for hunting.
Sounds like a cool setup.
Yeah.
So the gold standard of firebreaks, I guess we could go to next, a bladed line.
(13:39):
What, yeah.
Well, I mean, I guess, I guess short of, like you said, uh, a natural, you know, geological
feature or something like that.
Like if you've got a lake or a big river or something, of course, that's going to be a
nice natural firebreak to have, but, uh, a bladed line is really kind of the gold standard
put in with a dozer.
And a lot of folks, um, can get help with doing that, you know, free or at least relatively
(14:06):
low cost sometimes from the state forestry commission.
Um, NRCS has programs that reimburse landowners for putting in those types of firebreaks as
well.
So there are some options to, to get some help with that.
Yeah, for sure.
Uh, one thing, you know, like with a fire plow, that's really, it's a really aggressive
(14:27):
thing.
So it's, you know, it's establishing mineral soil, which is that gold standard, you know,
being breaking fuel.
Yeah.
Um, but that can be really aggressive and that I kind of think about it, I'm trying
to reduce the soil disturbance and disruption as much as possible, because sometimes I can
(14:52):
invite an invasive species and, you know, just erosion issues, that kind of stuff.
And, uh, I would encourage people to think about that when you're putting these in, you
know, you want it to be an established fire break that you can maintain over the long
term, but you want to try to do that with the least aggressive practice you can do it
(15:18):
effectively with.
Yeah.
So sometimes those fire plows that, you know, they're really digging a furrow in there,
you know, in the ground and it, it's changing things for a long time.
Yeah.
I've never really burned off one of those plowed with a fire plow.
Um, mostly what I'm talking about is when people just come in and blade, you know, with
the dozer and just take off the top surface, but that's still, it's still a high level
(15:42):
of disturbance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But not, not like the fire plow where you really, you know, that's a really aggressive
approach.
And I have burned in that context because some agencies use that as their go-to tool.
Yeah.
And, uh, you know, I think the bladed line or, you know, a dist line, if it's mineral
(16:02):
soil and be just as effective and it's less aggressive.
Yeah.
And that's kind of, you, you saying that made me think through that.
Right.
I'm, I'm trying to rank them.
Right.
Based on several criteria.
And one of them is how aggressive is the practice in terms of what, you know, how it's
(16:24):
altering things.
Yeah.
And I guess one thing that the listener kind of implied that he wanted to know about that
we maybe haven't been answering is, is what scenarios each would be most effective in,
or like, what are the pros and cons of it?
And, um, I mean.
What are the, one of the least aggressive, other than just taking advantage of a natural
(16:45):
feature that we haven't talked about at all is blowing a line out.
Yeah.
And that was, I was going to go directly to what context does that really effective in?
Yeah.
So I don't know if that's where you were going.
Well, we could go there.
I mean, well, let's just lay them all out.
I mean, we talked about green fire breaks, which often are naturally vegetated or planted.
(17:06):
And obviously you burn when the vegetation is living, because that's ideally when it's
not going to be, well, it's not going to carry fire.
Not break, because you smoke planted it.
Yeah.
Just to be clear, you know, sometimes we get weird questions.
So we've got that.
We've got natural features, roads, of course, are going to, we're going to take advantage
(17:27):
of those, uh, creeks we're going to take advantage of.
Um, and then, you know, you've got like a, one that's created with a fire plow or a dozer
blade.
Um, you've got a blown in line with like a backpack leaf blower that you just brought
up.
And then, um, you've got a disc line.
(17:49):
I've probably burned more off of disc lines than anything else that I've ever burned off
of.
That's really common.
Yeah.
And cause most landowners have that tool at their disposal.
And then, uh, a wet line, a wet line is the last one I thought about.
Yeah.
And that one's a little more, uh, a little trickier.
(18:12):
Yeah, it can be really effective and especially in places that you can't get equipment.
Yeah.
And most of the time when I burn off a wet line and just to be clear, what we're talking
about with that is, you know, you've got some kind of water source, whether that it could
be as simple as something like a backpack sprayer all the way up to a big tractor mounted
sprayer.
Um, but you know, you're essentially lighting the fire and putting it out so that it can
(18:35):
only burn in the direction that you want it to.
Yeah.
Right.
So yeah, if you light a fire, it burns and it burns outward from that spot and you're
putting out the fire that's going the wrong way.
Right.
And so for the most part, when I burn off a wet line, it's when I'm burning around a
shooting house or a utility box on the side of the road or something like that, just to
(18:58):
try to consume that fuel.
So I don't accidentally burn up that feature.
Yeah.
Or maybe it's a big white Oak.
You want to just be real cautious around or something.
But another, it's sort of a variation of that.
There are some products.
It's not usually used by a landowner necessarily, but like a fire retardant, uh, that people
(19:18):
will basically establish a line of, of that whatever product that, that they have and
burn off of it.
And the idea is it's wet and not flammable.
Right.
So it's not allowing the fire to progress in one direction.
The other thing that I have seen and grown more, grown more appreciation for, especially
(19:39):
working with some of these landowners and, and, uh, the Red Hills Quail Country is using
a rake.
And, uh, a lot of the time they will have like a Bahia grass road.
It's just like a little path through the woods, you know, that they're using to get around
the landscape.
Yeah.
And, uh, they, it's a really effective way to manage those.
(20:02):
So you're not tearing up your road.
Uh, they basically just run a hay rake down the road and remove all that thatch.
And then it essentially takes all the dead thatch that would be flammable away.
And, uh, now everything that's left is still green and it's concerning that green fire
break purpose, but really effective way to, to decrease.
(20:26):
You know, the, the, uh, probability of a fire creeping across it, if it's Bahia, it's already
not very flammable, but that just kind of sows it up.
Yeah.
And that I've done that quite a few times now.
And that's a really effective way that's, that's not causing a bunch of soil disturbance.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
(20:48):
Going back to the bladed line, um, I mean, by far my favorite thing about burning off
of a bladed line is that it's safe, you know, like as safe as you can be from getting spot,
you know, having spotting.
Um, so that's something that I really want to employ in an area that I know that I'm
(21:09):
going to burn fairly aggressively.
Like if for some reason, I know that's part of my objectives for burning that unit that
I'm going to burn it when conditions are volatile, um, or there's something really
sensitive on the other side of it.
You're right.
Yeah.
A place that we really don't need to get into.
(21:29):
Um, like a perfect example comes to mind for me for a couple of years ago where I wish
I'd had a bladed line to burn off of.
We were burning next to another landowner's, um, two-year-old loblolly pine plantation,
and it was during winter time and that field was full of dead broom sedge, you know?
So if it hopped that line, I mean, it was just going to rip across through those loblolly
(21:53):
pines and kill every single one of them.
And, uh, we were burning off a little squirrel trail of a fire break and it started getting
over into them.
And I had a moment of panic.
We got it put out.
We, we, we jumped on it really quick, but if we, uh, I mean, some of that was luck.
And if we hadn't gotten there soon enough and it had gotten a little size to it, there's
no way we were getting in front of it.
So, um, those are all good situations to have a bladed line.
(22:17):
The other thing that I like about a bladed line is that oftentimes, you know, you turn
them into roads has basically become new roads and give you all the access that we just talked
about, uh, from sneaking around and hunting to being able to get your tractor in places
to do work and spray invasives or plant or whatever else you need to do.
Yeah, that's a good point.
(22:38):
What have we missed?
Oh, the blowing, uh, blowing out lines.
I like that a lot.
Uh, it's particularly effective in upland hardwoods.
Yeah.
You'd be surprised how easy it is to just take that leaf blower and just get down to
mineral soil.
Man, you can knock it out fast too.
Yeah.
(22:58):
Pine straw is much harder to do.
Yeah, and especially if you, if you have a developed understory, then it's more difficult
to use that.
Forget it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, but usually in up, I shouldn't say usually, but a lot of times in upland hardwoods, you've
got a relatively open understory and that leaf litter is easy to blow off.
(23:22):
And, uh, you you're more likely to be able to use that effectively as a tool.
And I have burned units just to be clear, where all of the lines were blown.
Me too.
Me too.
Like we just had a couple of people with a back bite blower walking around blowing the
lines in and then burn right off of them.
And so, you know, it's getting down to mineral soil, super effective and quick.
(23:46):
And it's low, uh, impact on the environment.
You know, you're not inviting invasive problems or anything.
Well, that's the other great thing that it works in hardwoods because usually hardwoods
have a lot more, you know, topography to them.
So you're not having to worry about going side hill with a, with a disc or a dozer.
Yeah.
And we can cut in some footage.
(24:06):
I did this, uh, actually Zach that we had on recently, that was, may have been his first
time burning in up on hardwoods and, uh, we were up with Craig recording for our habitat
management module online.
And, uh, of course, you know, true Craig fashion.
He's like, well, while I got y'all here, can you help me burn these woods?
(24:29):
So we went out there and, and, uh, burned some up on hardwood stands, but that's exactly
what we did.
We went in there and blew out the, the, the, uh, fire lines and then set it on fire and
had a good time doing it.
Yeah.
But, uh, you know, it's such an effective way to establish a fire break in those kinds
(24:51):
of systems where you have a lot of topography and you do, I mean, using equipment or heavy
equipment, it's just not, it's not an option.
Oh yeah.
I mean, like some of those blown in lines that I've put in, you can barely walk between
the trees and some of the places, you know, much less get it, get a vehicle in there.
Yeah.
Or, or you're, you know, in the mountains on the side of the mountain, right.
(25:13):
You're not going to go up the hill with that tractor.
Yeah.
I've done, I've done a lot of burning off blown in lines too.
You got to take your time.
You got to take your time with it.
You got to babysit them a little bit more.
It's not as I like to refer to it as bomb proof.
You know, it's not as bomb proof as a bladed line or a disc, a really good disc line, but,
(25:34):
um, they can be darn effective for a lot of the reasons we just mentioned.
And, uh, to add to that too, uh, all you guys out there that are burn practitioners, if,
if you don't have like, uh, either a good battery powered or a handheld gas powered,
I'm not, I mean, you, you can use a backpack bull or if you want to, it's just heavy and
(25:55):
cumbersome, but I like the little handheld gas powers or the new electric ones they have.
Those things will run pretty long.
Um, or you can even carry a few spare batteries with you.
Cause I think I've got three or four batteries for mine.
They're great for fighting fire too.
You know, if you get a little bit of a jump, there have been many occasions where I've
gone around a little bit of a spot and just, you know, created my new little fire break
(26:17):
and put it out that way.
Yeah.
Great tool to have on the fire line.
Yep.
I agree.
Um, disc lines, we've talked about them several times already today.
That's kind of like in my hierarchy going downhill from, you know, like if I can't burn
on a big stream or I can't burn on a bladed line or something else that's really bomb
(26:43):
proof like that.
A disc line is probably, uh, where a lot of landowners find that they hit that kind of
optimal point of effectiveness combined with cost effective.
Right.
Effective, effective burn off of, but also cost effective.
Yeah.
And also feasible in a lot of different contexts as well.
(27:05):
And it's also logistically feasible because a lot of people already have that gear.
Yeah.
To make that happen.
So this step, I would say aside from using natural features, you know, burning up against
something that's not flammable that you already have in the landscape, that's probably the
(27:25):
most common thing that I see and that I use even, uh, is a disc line.
So it can be very effective.
And, uh, you know, I'm, I would say that sort of moderate in terms of, you know, the, how
aggressive it is.
One thing I don't like about disking is some of the times of the year that you might be
(27:52):
disking to, to burn, you're inviting some plants that are not desirable into those areas.
And I have seen that multiple times where people have, which I see the same thing for
roads, you know, where you've got a woods road or something, but it's just a, it's an
invasion point.
Yeah.
You know, where you, you end up with some weeds that you don't want to colonize.
(28:16):
Right.
And, uh, you know, that, that's kind of what I'm thinking about when I'm trying to go
through that hierarchy, thinking about trying to be less aggressive because, you know, if
you're going to disk in May, probably going to get some stuff you don't want colonizing
that.
Yeah.
So, uh, you know, that might be a good time to think about something else is disturbing
(28:41):
the soil list, you know, cause the timing is not really a good time for that.
It's a really good point.
Cause you know, I'm veering off topic a little bit, but I think it's valuable enough that
our listeners will appreciate it.
But something that I've been thinking about some lately is, uh, you and I have been talking
and doing a lot of field management for turkeys recently, and coming up with questions that
(29:04):
we didn't even know we needed answers to until we started doing a whole lot more of this.
Um, it has given me a huge appreciation for trying to manage for native Forbes in areas
that are either currently forested or that were just recently deforested to create a
(29:24):
field because it's a blank slate.
And that makes you realize like, y'all think about it.
You go out in your field and you disk and you start trying to encourage all this native
early succession that we talk about for your turkeys.
And you have to peel back those layers of invasives.
It's like, I killed this.
Now I got that.
I killed this.
Now I got that.
I mean, what gives, when is this going to end?
It is because of what Marcus just described is that that field has has, well, some of it
(29:50):
was probably introduced intentionally previously.
Right.
But then part of it too, is just because that being a field and getting disturbed many,
many times over the years, depending on how old it is, has given the opportunity for those
invasive species to take hold.
Yeah.
Well, you know, think about the land use history.
People may not even realize a lot.
(30:12):
A lot of our ground used to be a cotton field.
Might have been 100 years ago.
So that.
Or an overgrazed pasture.
Yeah.
A lot of it has been that for a long time.
You know, some of our areas, there's not even topsoil left because it eroded because of
some of the land use practices.
And there's not a lot of the south.
(30:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, there's not a lot we can do about it in many of those cases.
But it's definitely, you know, adding all these non-native species that have been introduced
over the last several decades.
You know, there's lots of issues and you've got to understand that issue and then try
(30:55):
to figure out a plan.
And some of that is trial and error because your context might be different than the,
you know, the next hill over or the next landowner over.
So it's a challenge.
And, you know, you and I have lamented about this, the difficulties of trying to get these,
the field management right across all the different contexts that we see all the time.
(31:18):
It's just a real challenge.
Yeah, the past use history, the soil quality, the moisture regime on the field, like what
surrounds it, all those things.
So, but yeah, the disc line, I mean, you know, it can be an effective fire containment tool.
(31:40):
The one limitation that I will say that it has is if you're going through, you know,
kind of like with the, we were talking about with the blower, there's an area that has
a lot of undergrowth.
It's going to be difficult, you know, especially like around fields that have a lot of grass
that, you know, that thatch is very difficult to get rid of.
You may have to disc it multiple times.
(32:02):
And even then you still may not have a continuous layer of mineral soil.
Yeah.
But adequate for containment in a lot of cases.
For sure.
What are we missing?
Well, I think, I don't know if we necessarily have addressed the questions as directly as
(32:25):
may have been wanted, but, you know, I feel like we were just talking, we got into more
of making sure you go through these P's and Q's about what the, how to make a firebreak
effective.
Yeah.
So, and one thing I see it fairly commonly, and you kind of reminded me of it.
(32:47):
When you're, when you're getting ready to burn, run around your firebreaks again, even
if you put them in last week.
Yeah.
Like make sure that a tree didn't fall across it or didn't have, you know, a bunch of leaves
fall on it or something.
I've just, I've had that happen a few times or had people tell me about it where they
(33:09):
had a jump because they didn't, you know, they put their firebreak in yesterday and
they didn't go around it before they lit the day and something had happened that they
didn't expect.
You know, just make sure, make sure you go check it one last time.
I'll give you my other words of wisdom related to that, that you jogged my memory on is go
(33:33):
around the firebreak and look for dead trees too.
You know, if you have a snag right on your firebreak and it catches on fire and falls
outside of your firebreak, that's a bad day.
So you don't necessarily have to fail those snags, but you might want to go around and
use your blower to blow out around those snags before you light off so that you don't end
(33:54):
up having to deal with that.
Nothing else.
There's nothing that'll ruin a good burn day, like catching a snag on fire.
Well, and that's a, you know, some of these tools we've talked about raking around it
or using your blower, blow out around it.
Yeah.
It'd be really effective.
But even then, you know, I will say that there's been some times where I've caught snags on
(34:15):
fire 20 feet off the ground.
Like it's not coming in from the bottom.
It's embers catching the higher branches on fire.
So.
Something good to make note of.
Yeah.
When you have a snag in a stand that has a sneaky way of causing trouble.
Yeah.
Well, that's good stuff.
(34:35):
I mean, it's probably rudimentary for some of y'all, but I know there's a lot of folks
just now starting to get into fire and thinking through these questions.
And I think that'll be really helpful to you as you go forward.
And if y'all have any follow-up questions to that, obviously feel free to reach out
and let us know.
Yeah.
Well, you know, like you said, people are coming.
(34:56):
We've got an audience across the whole spectrum of experience and knowledge and land
management.
And I'm glad that we do.
I'm glad that we've got people out there interested in trying to manage and, you know,
trying to get into some of this nitty gritty like this.
I'm sure that we could have covered it more thoroughly.
But, you know, with that being said, we have a lot of knowledgeable people in our audience.
(35:21):
And, you know, take a moment to drop us a comment if we missed something or you've got
an experience that's relevant or a different practice that might be widely usable or effective
for people, you know, something that we missed.
We have people commonly do that in the comment section anyway.
But just kind of think of it from that perspective.
(35:44):
We're not perfect.
We can't squeeze everything into, you know, an episode either.
And also, we haven't seen every context or every technique.
So think about that as an opportunity for you to share your experience and teach people
so that we can get more fire on the ground.
So I think ultimately, I hope everybody listening to this realizes that fire is a tool that
(36:12):
can be really effective to improve things for turkeys.
And generally speaking, we'd like a lot more people to get engaged and start using it to
make turkey habitat.
Yep.
And we're paying attention to y'all's questions too.
That was one of the ones listeners submitted to wildturkeyscience at gmail.com.
So if y'all have other ones, feel free to hit that up.
(36:35):
And Charlotte, our producer, keeps a good eye on that.
And then she'll send them over to us periodically.
Yeah, she sends them all the time.
I get back to as many of them as I can, but not all that I would like.
So we're doing our best, but we are paying attention.
We are reading it.
Yeah, it's definitely not all of them.
But a lot of times what we do is what we did here, where we kind of we see questions and
(37:00):
we don't necessarily respond to everyone, but we're kind of keeping a tally.
And we'll get to a level like this, like, man, we really got to do one on firebreaks.
Yeah.
That's because we've gotten a bunch of questions about this.
Yeah.
And I will say too, though, that there are some of those that we never respond to or
because we've covered them in previous episodes, if not multiple times.
(37:22):
We try to direct people to those, or we hold them and try to address them online when there's
a lot of people that want to know about it.
Yeah.
Like I saw a question from a few days ago that a listener submitted about, you know,
what does the hen do, like go into detail about the laying process and the nesting process?
(37:43):
Well, we did all that in that relatively recent episode where you were reading
through some of Lovett's observations.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we can link that episode for that listener.
Yeah.
So we're not ignoring you, but we're also trying to be efficient with our time.
Absolutely.
You know, yeah, that's a good point.
(38:03):
But I know one thing, we're really glad to have the listeners and so much activity and
so many things coming in because it really helps us stay motivated and on track to
deliver things that people want to hear about.
Yep.
100%.
(38:24):
All right.
Well, I hope you can stay cool because it's hot outside here.
I'm trying.
I'm trying.
Our turkeys in the facility, man, they're, you know, we've got plenty of shade and water
and everything for them.
Yeah.
They're in a good situation, but it's just so hot.
(38:45):
Yeah.
Like they're just, you know, you can see that effect on their face.
And I'll tell you what's been frustrating me lately is, you know, I have that lab puppy.
I mean, she's 16 months old.
So basically still a puppy, you know, and, uh, it's so hot right now.
I can't take her out and play with her for more than five minutes before she's just
completely blown out, you know, but, but that's not enough.
(39:08):
It's just enough to get her hot, but it's not enough to get all our energy out.
You know?
So once she recovers 10 minutes later inside the house, she's bouncing off the walls again.
And that's been driving me crazy.
And, you know, we, we take her down to the lake and stuff, but I'll tell you what, man,
the first few feet of the lake right now aren't much better.
They're like about 90 degrees until you get down to five or six feet right now.
(39:31):
So it's not very helpful either.
Yeah.
Our pool's over 90 degrees.
I looked at it yesterday.
Insane.
It's like taking a bath.
It's gross.
All right, let's get out of here.
We veered way too far off.
Thanks everybody.
Thanks for all the support.
Wild Turkey Science is part of the Natural Resources University Podcast Network and is
(39:58):
made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow, a grassroots organization dedicated to the wild turkey.
To learn more about TFT, check out turkeysfortomorrow.org.
Turkeys for Tomorrow.
Turkeys for Tomorrow.
you know serving that role as a firebreak really well but it's also a plant that's super attractive
(00:07):
and nutritious for deer and turkeys and it can serve that attraction purpose and sneak around
and find a you know a gobbler coming to it to strut in or something like that. I would guess
that the majority of the turkeys that I've killed I have used a fire break at some point in that hunt.
(00:33):
Welcome to Wild Turkey Science, a podcast made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow. I'm Dr. Marcus
Lashley, Professor of Wildlife Ecology at the University of Florida. And I'm Dr. Will Goolsby,
Professor of Wildlife Ecology and Management at Auburn University. We're both lifelong hunters
and devoted scientists who are passionate about hunting, managing, and researching wild turkeys.
(00:57):
In this podcast, we'll explore turkey research, speak to the experts in the field,
and address the difficult questions related to wild turkey ecology and management.
Our goal is to serve as your connection to Wild Turkey Science.
Yeah, you kidnapped us counted by about 12 seconds.
(01:23):
Oh, I was early?
Yeah, you know all those really crazy good ideas you just had.
Yeah.
Completely lost to the world.
Lost to the ether and I'll never remember them again either.
Yeah, so that one like grandiose point that would save turkeys completely that you just made,
(01:43):
can you repeat that?
You know that didn't come from my head.
You know, I did have a listener tell me recently that we talk too much at the start of these
episodes.
Well, I've had two listeners that told me that we didn't talk enough.
Well, that's what I told him too. I have heard people say that they enjoy the back and forth,
(02:06):
but he definitely did not.
He wants us to jump right in with both feet.
So, he wants us to not be listenable.
We already aren't for a lot of people.
He's just coming on and he wants to get his advice and he's eager to get back out there
and put it on the ground, I guess.
Yeah, well maybe we could get Charlotte to start putting a stopper in there.
(02:30):
Yeah.
When does the good stuff start?
Charlotte, if you could mark that in the YouTube episode so that folks can just skip ahead to that
point.
My only concern is that on some episodes, they may never get to that point.
Yeah, it'd be funny if she had a couple of, like in an episode, she puts the point way
out at the end.
(02:51):
She's like, hey guys, where did you get on topic?
Yeah, did you guys ever say anything worth listening to?
So, this is going to be a good one and another really management relevant one that was driven
by a listener request.
Yeah, and we get a lot of questions about it and talk about it and it's super relevant
(03:14):
to everything we talk about from a habitat management standpoint, for sure.
And we've never really put a lot of focus on it.
It's just one of those logistical things that you don't think about talking about unless
somebody asks you to.
Yeah, exactly.
So, do you want to break the ice or do you want me to?
Well, I was going back to the emails to see if I could find the listener so that I could
(03:36):
give him credit for that.
It was from a listener, Ben Allgood, and he said, I'm trying to condense it down.
He wrote a good bit.
Basically, he asked for input on when to use green firebreaks, disc firebreaks, blown in,
(03:56):
and so forth, so that would be helpful.
Nice.
So, when do you use different firebreaks and why?
I think that's a great, great question to dive in on.
Do you want me to start?
Yeah.
Okay, looks like you're still checking email or something.
(04:18):
Well, I'm making sure I turn it off so it doesn't ding the whole time like it just did.
Yeah.
Well, I think this is a great question.
It's one of those times that a lot of creativity, there's a lot of slack, I think, as Craig
said, in this and what you're using and why and where.
So, what I normally think, I mean, principally, the firebreak has to be good at what it's
(04:44):
supposed to do, which is make it, you know, make fire stay where it's supposed to be so
that you can burn safely.
So, that is the key consideration first, but the type of firebreak that you use can
vary quite substantially.
Sometimes, on a side, you may not need one.
Maybe you already have a firebreak because there's a big lake there or something, right?
(05:07):
Like, or, you know, utilize features that are already inherent to the property.
Maybe it's a road or a ditch or whatever.
Maybe it's just a hardwood forest and you don't have conditions where that'll even burn.
Yeah, exactly.
Like, you've got lots of ways that can be, but when you're deliberate with them, I like
(05:32):
to consider, I think one thing that's not considered enough, I would say, I guess, that
comes to mind to me immediately is those firebreaks can provide some really great opportunity
for hunting and also for productivity.
And I think, you know, trying to integrate them into the landscape so that they make
(05:54):
the property more huntable and they potentially add to productivity of your turkey population
are key considerations that you should think about.
Some ways that you can do that, you know, he mentioned in that message a green firebreak.
Well, what does that mean?
(06:14):
Well, usually what we're talking about is you might disc a fire line.
Maybe that's in a, you know, down along a roadside or daylighted road.
Ideally, we're getting full sun and part of it.
It could be a woods road or, you know, a fifth row and thin or, you know, something like
(06:37):
that where you're disking an area and then you're going to sow it to something that's
attractive.
I really love, you know, like a firebreak down the edge of a woodlot where you're going
to get high turkey use to top sow that with crimson clover or something like that.
(06:58):
And it can be, it can serve multiple purposes, right?
So in that case, that green firebreak, the plants when they're green and growing are
not flammable.
So you can burn right off of it or stop fire when it hits it.
So it's serving that role as a firebreak really well, but it's also a plant that's
(07:21):
super attractive and nutritious for deer and turkeys, you know, and it can serve that
attraction purpose and, you know, can be an excellent deer stand on it, you know, that
kind of thing and sneak around and find, you know, a gobbler coming to it to strut in or
something like that.
Yeah.
You know, that's really what I think about when I'm thinking about a green firebreak.
(07:45):
Yes.
We're deliberately placing those in a place that's key for hunting purposes or maybe
productivity depending on what you're doing.
And you're deliberately using it as a firebreak when the vegetation's too green to burn.
Yeah.
I like that.
I really like what you said too about how it, how firebreaks can facilitate hunting.
(08:09):
Because I sit, I'm here sitting here thinking about it and it's like, I would guess that
the majority of the turkeys that I've killed, I have used a firebreak at some point in that
hunt.
Yeah, even if it's just for sneaking around in the woods to get in position, but, you
know, setting up on them, especially if you've got something in there that's good, you know,
(08:33):
good eating and has good structure for strutting in, like that can be a really effective way.
Yeah.
One of my favorite food plots, if you will, that I have ever hunted during the deer season
anywhere, it was a really creative idea.
And I'm sure we'll get into more of these as we kind of walk through this and think
(08:54):
about it more.
But there's an upland pine stand, you know, kind of starts coming down the hill, transitions
into hardwoods.
And then you've kind of got a hardwood, like a hardwood slope.
And then it went into like a hardwood flat.
And then right there at the bottom of the slope where it transitions into the flat,
there was a firebreak there.
(09:15):
The landowner opened up the firebreak.
So it was still just a lane that was separating the upland area that he burned from the bottom
one hardwood forest, but he made it like three or four times wider than he needed to with
a dozer.
And then that ended up being a clover like strip food plot and it was 300 yards long
(09:37):
and it joined the uplands to the bottomland area.
Right.
So you already see where this is going and you could imagine how much of a stopover point
it was.
But I remember like several afternoons and mornings sitting on that strip food plot and
having like multiple deer and turkeys all in view, just lined up down the food plot
(09:58):
at once.
I mean, at one point, I remember I was hunting out there and there was like a nice 110 inch
ish, like three and a half year old eight point out there and a couple of turkeys, a
doe group with a couple of fawns in it.
And it was just like, it was like Noah's Ark, you know, down through there.
(10:19):
And so that lane was not only helping them burn, but it was also serving that purpose
as well.
Well, and that's also, it's often conducive to, I was saying sneaking around, but you're
kind of alluding to the same thing, like you can get up and down out of the stand with
deer in the plot or, you know, get set up on it a little down the way from a turkey
(10:41):
that's already in it.
Like you're, you know, it's giving you a nice vantage point to kind of sneak up on
them and get in position when you already know they're present.
Right.
So I definitely think that can be really effective.
And, you know, a lot of people were doing that.
I see that kind of stuff done, you know, uh, really commonly on the landscape.
(11:05):
But I think the thing I'm trying to impress upon you is not just taking advantage of it
somewhere and making a food plot, but be strategic about it and try to set that up so
that it's maximizing the huntability of it.
Yeah.
So, you know, just be aware that that can be an effective food plot.
(11:28):
And even in the case, you know, let's say you're going to burn at a time when the stuff
that you had planted is fallow and it's still flammable, what's still setting you up to
go in and disc, you know, a line really easily, right.
It's making it logistically easier for you.
And I've seen people do that too, where they're just coming along the edge of a food plot
(11:52):
and putting in a disc line or, uh, you know, something along those lines to make sure that
it's going to hold the fire and it's just setting it up for you to do that easily.
Right.
Right.
So one of the ones that I saw that I've seen that was so effective, uh, there there's a,
(12:12):
in this particular location, there's a, a CRP field that was originally what it got
planted as, and now it's just managed as early succession and perpetuity.
And there's a couple of hundred yard long strip that's probably 15 yards wide, 20 yards
wide, that's planted in a cereal grain and, and a clover mix.
(12:37):
And the others, the others, well, I guess right along is a, a road where, you know,
where they drive in and out and then it goes transitions into this upwind hardwood forest.
And it's just been such an effective setup because, you know, of the way that it's positioned
(12:57):
on the landscape, there's excellent, uh, roosting right next to it.
There's excellent nesting and brooding cover directly adjacent and bedding for deer during
the deer season.
And it's just set up so nice.
Right.
And it's playing such an important role because they're burning really frequently in that
(13:17):
field and it's allowing them to do that easily.
But, uh, you know, it's set up such that it's really effective for hunting.
Sounds like a cool setup.
Yeah.
So the gold standard of firebreaks, I guess we could go to next, a bladed line.
(13:39):
What, yeah.
Well, I mean, I guess, I guess short of, like you said, uh, a natural, you know, geological
feature or something like that.
Like if you've got a lake or a big river or something, of course, that's going to be a
nice natural firebreak to have, but, uh, a bladed line is really kind of the gold standard
put in with a dozer.
And a lot of folks, um, can get help with doing that, you know, free or at least relatively
(14:06):
low cost sometimes from the state forestry commission.
Um, NRCS has programs that reimburse landowners for putting in those types of firebreaks as
well.
So there are some options to, to get some help with that.
Yeah, for sure.
Uh, one thing, you know, like with a fire plow, that's really, it's a really aggressive
(14:27):
thing.
So it's, you know, it's establishing mineral soil, which is that gold standard, you know,
being breaking fuel.
Yeah.
Um, but that can be really aggressive and that I kind of think about it, I'm trying
to reduce the soil disturbance and disruption as much as possible, because sometimes I can
(14:52):
invite an invasive species and, you know, just erosion issues, that kind of stuff.
And, uh, I would encourage people to think about that when you're putting these in, you
know, you want it to be an established fire break that you can maintain over the long
term, but you want to try to do that with the least aggressive practice you can do it
(15:18):
effectively with.
Yeah.
So sometimes those fire plows that, you know, they're really digging a furrow in there,
you know, in the ground and it, it's changing things for a long time.
Yeah.
I've never really burned off one of those plowed with a fire plow.
Um, mostly what I'm talking about is when people just come in and blade, you know, with
the dozer and just take off the top surface, but that's still, it's still a high level
(15:42):
of disturbance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But not, not like the fire plow where you really, you know, that's a really aggressive
approach.
And I have burned in that context because some agencies use that as their go-to tool.
Yeah.
And, uh, you know, I think the bladed line or, you know, a dist line, if it's mineral
(16:02):
soil and be just as effective and it's less aggressive.
Yeah.
And that's kind of, you, you saying that made me think through that.
Right.
I'm, I'm trying to rank them.
Right.
Based on several criteria.
And one of them is how aggressive is the practice in terms of what, you know, how it's
(16:24):
altering things.
Yeah.
And I guess one thing that the listener kind of implied that he wanted to know about that
we maybe haven't been answering is, is what scenarios each would be most effective in,
or like, what are the pros and cons of it?
And, um, I mean.
What are the, one of the least aggressive, other than just taking advantage of a natural
(16:45):
feature that we haven't talked about at all is blowing a line out.
Yeah.
And that was, I was going to go directly to what context does that really effective in?
Yeah.
So I don't know if that's where you were going.
Well, we could go there.
I mean, well, let's just lay them all out.
I mean, we talked about green fire breaks, which often are naturally vegetated or planted.
(17:06):
And obviously you burn when the vegetation is living, because that's ideally when it's
not going to be, well, it's not going to carry fire.
Not break, because you smoke planted it.
Yeah.
Just to be clear, you know, sometimes we get weird questions.
So we've got that.
We've got natural features, roads, of course, are going to, we're going to take advantage
(17:27):
of those, uh, creeks we're going to take advantage of.
Um, and then, you know, you've got like a, one that's created with a fire plow or a dozer
blade.
Um, you've got a blown in line with like a backpack leaf blower that you just brought
up.
And then, um, you've got a disc line.
(17:49):
I've probably burned more off of disc lines than anything else that I've ever burned off
of.
That's really common.
Yeah.
And cause most landowners have that tool at their disposal.
And then, uh, a wet line, a wet line is the last one I thought about.
Yeah.
And that one's a little more, uh, a little trickier.
(18:12):
Yeah, it can be really effective and especially in places that you can't get equipment.
Yeah.
And most of the time when I burn off a wet line and just to be clear, what we're talking
about with that is, you know, you've got some kind of water source, whether that it could
be as simple as something like a backpack sprayer all the way up to a big tractor mounted
sprayer.
Um, but you know, you're essentially lighting the fire and putting it out so that it can
(18:35):
only burn in the direction that you want it to.
Yeah.
Right.
So yeah, if you light a fire, it burns and it burns outward from that spot and you're
putting out the fire that's going the wrong way.
Right.
And so for the most part, when I burn off a wet line, it's when I'm burning around a
shooting house or a utility box on the side of the road or something like that, just to
(18:58):
try to consume that fuel.
So I don't accidentally burn up that feature.
Yeah.
Or maybe it's a big white Oak.
You want to just be real cautious around or something.
But another, it's sort of a variation of that.
There are some products.
It's not usually used by a landowner necessarily, but like a fire retardant, uh, that people
(19:18):
will basically establish a line of, of that whatever product that, that they have and
burn off of it.
And the idea is it's wet and not flammable.
Right.
So it's not allowing the fire to progress in one direction.
The other thing that I have seen and grown more, grown more appreciation for, especially
(19:39):
working with some of these landowners and, and, uh, the Red Hills Quail Country is using
a rake.
And, uh, a lot of the time they will have like a Bahia grass road.
It's just like a little path through the woods, you know, that they're using to get around
the landscape.
Yeah.
And, uh, they, it's a really effective way to manage those.
(20:02):
So you're not tearing up your road.
Uh, they basically just run a hay rake down the road and remove all that thatch.
And then it essentially takes all the dead thatch that would be flammable away.
And, uh, now everything that's left is still green and it's concerning that green fire
break purpose, but really effective way to, to decrease.
(20:26):
You know, the, the, uh, probability of a fire creeping across it, if it's Bahia, it's already
not very flammable, but that just kind of sows it up.
Yeah.
And that I've done that quite a few times now.
And that's a really effective way that's, that's not causing a bunch of soil disturbance.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
(20:48):
Going back to the bladed line, um, I mean, by far my favorite thing about burning off
of a bladed line is that it's safe, you know, like as safe as you can be from getting spot,
you know, having spotting.
Um, so that's something that I really want to employ in an area that I know that I'm
(21:09):
going to burn fairly aggressively.
Like if for some reason, I know that's part of my objectives for burning that unit that
I'm going to burn it when conditions are volatile, um, or there's something really
sensitive on the other side of it.
You're right.
Yeah.
A place that we really don't need to get into.
(21:29):
Um, like a perfect example comes to mind for me for a couple of years ago where I wish
I'd had a bladed line to burn off of.
We were burning next to another landowner's, um, two-year-old loblolly pine plantation,
and it was during winter time and that field was full of dead broom sedge, you know?
So if it hopped that line, I mean, it was just going to rip across through those loblolly
(21:53):
pines and kill every single one of them.
And, uh, we were burning off a little squirrel trail of a fire break and it started getting
over into them.
And I had a moment of panic.
We got it put out.
We, we, we jumped on it really quick, but if we, uh, I mean, some of that was luck.
And if we hadn't gotten there soon enough and it had gotten a little size to it, there's
no way we were getting in front of it.
So, um, those are all good situations to have a bladed line.
(22:17):
The other thing that I like about a bladed line is that oftentimes, you know, you turn
them into roads has basically become new roads and give you all the access that we just talked
about, uh, from sneaking around and hunting to being able to get your tractor in places
to do work and spray invasives or plant or whatever else you need to do.
Yeah, that's a good point.
(22:38):
What have we missed?
Oh, the blowing, uh, blowing out lines.
I like that a lot.
Uh, it's particularly effective in upland hardwoods.
Yeah.
You'd be surprised how easy it is to just take that leaf blower and just get down to
mineral soil.
Man, you can knock it out fast too.
Yeah.
(22:58):
Pine straw is much harder to do.
Yeah, and especially if you, if you have a developed understory, then it's more difficult
to use that.
Forget it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, but usually in up, I shouldn't say usually, but a lot of times in upland hardwoods, you've
got a relatively open understory and that leaf litter is easy to blow off.
(23:22):
And, uh, you you're more likely to be able to use that effectively as a tool.
And I have burned units just to be clear, where all of the lines were blown.
Me too.
Me too.
Like we just had a couple of people with a back bite blower walking around blowing the
lines in and then burn right off of them.
And so, you know, it's getting down to mineral soil, super effective and quick.
(23:46):
And it's low, uh, impact on the environment.
You know, you're not inviting invasive problems or anything.
Well, that's the other great thing that it works in hardwoods because usually hardwoods
have a lot more, you know, topography to them.
So you're not having to worry about going side hill with a, with a disc or a dozer.
Yeah.
And we can cut in some footage.
(24:06):
I did this, uh, actually Zach that we had on recently, that was, may have been his first
time burning in up on hardwoods and, uh, we were up with Craig recording for our habitat
management module online.
And, uh, of course, you know, true Craig fashion.
He's like, well, while I got y'all here, can you help me burn these woods?
(24:29):
So we went out there and, and, uh, burned some up on hardwood stands, but that's exactly
what we did.
We went in there and blew out the, the, the, uh, fire lines and then set it on fire and
had a good time doing it.
Yeah.
But, uh, you know, it's such an effective way to establish a fire break in those kinds
(24:51):
of systems where you have a lot of topography and you do, I mean, using equipment or heavy
equipment, it's just not, it's not an option.
Oh yeah.
I mean, like some of those blown in lines that I've put in, you can barely walk between
the trees and some of the places, you know, much less get it, get a vehicle in there.
Yeah.
Or, or you're, you know, in the mountains on the side of the mountain, right.
(25:13):
You're not going to go up the hill with that tractor.
Yeah.
I've done, I've done a lot of burning off blown in lines too.
You got to take your time.
You got to take your time with it.
You got to babysit them a little bit more.
It's not as I like to refer to it as bomb proof.
You know, it's not as bomb proof as a bladed line or a disc, a really good disc line, but,
(25:34):
um, they can be darn effective for a lot of the reasons we just mentioned.
And, uh, to add to that too, uh, all you guys out there that are burn practitioners, if,
if you don't have like, uh, either a good battery powered or a handheld gas powered,
I'm not, I mean, you, you can use a backpack bull or if you want to, it's just heavy and
(25:55):
cumbersome, but I like the little handheld gas powers or the new electric ones they have.
Those things will run pretty long.
Um, or you can even carry a few spare batteries with you.
Cause I think I've got three or four batteries for mine.
They're great for fighting fire too.
You know, if you get a little bit of a jump, there have been many occasions where I've
gone around a little bit of a spot and just, you know, created my new little fire break
(26:17):
and put it out that way.
Yeah.
Great tool to have on the fire line.
Yep.
I agree.
Um, disc lines, we've talked about them several times already today.
That's kind of like in my hierarchy going downhill from, you know, like if I can't burn
on a big stream or I can't burn on a bladed line or something else that's really bomb
(26:43):
proof like that.
A disc line is probably, uh, where a lot of landowners find that they hit that kind of
optimal point of effectiveness combined with cost effective.
Right.
Effective, effective burn off of, but also cost effective.
Yeah.
And also feasible in a lot of different contexts as well.
(27:05):
And it's also logistically feasible because a lot of people already have that gear.
Yeah.
To make that happen.
So this step, I would say aside from using natural features, you know, burning up against
something that's not flammable that you already have in the landscape, that's probably the
(27:25):
most common thing that I see and that I use even, uh, is a disc line.
So it can be very effective.
And, uh, you know, I'm, I would say that sort of moderate in terms of, you know, the, how
aggressive it is.
One thing I don't like about disking is some of the times of the year that you might be
(27:52):
disking to, to burn, you're inviting some plants that are not desirable into those areas.
And I have seen that multiple times where people have, which I see the same thing for
roads, you know, where you've got a woods road or something, but it's just a, it's an
invasion point.
Yeah.
You know, where you, you end up with some weeds that you don't want to colonize.
(28:16):
Right.
And, uh, you know, that, that's kind of what I'm thinking about when I'm trying to go
through that hierarchy, thinking about trying to be less aggressive because, you know, if
you're going to disk in May, probably going to get some stuff you don't want colonizing
that.
Yeah.
So, uh, you know, that might be a good time to think about something else is disturbing
(28:41):
the soil list, you know, cause the timing is not really a good time for that.
It's a really good point.
Cause you know, I'm veering off topic a little bit, but I think it's valuable enough that
our listeners will appreciate it.
But something that I've been thinking about some lately is, uh, you and I have been talking
and doing a lot of field management for turkeys recently, and coming up with questions that
(29:04):
we didn't even know we needed answers to until we started doing a whole lot more of this.
Um, it has given me a huge appreciation for trying to manage for native Forbes in areas
that are either currently forested or that were just recently deforested to create a
(29:24):
field because it's a blank slate.
And that makes you realize like, y'all think about it.
You go out in your field and you disk and you start trying to encourage all this native
early succession that we talk about for your turkeys.
And you have to peel back those layers of invasives.
It's like, I killed this.
Now I got that.
I killed this.
Now I got that.
I mean, what gives, when is this going to end?
It is because of what Marcus just described is that that field has has, well, some of it
(29:50):
was probably introduced intentionally previously.
Right.
But then part of it too, is just because that being a field and getting disturbed many,
many times over the years, depending on how old it is, has given the opportunity for those
invasive species to take hold.
Yeah.
Well, you know, think about the land use history.
People may not even realize a lot.
(30:12):
A lot of our ground used to be a cotton field.
Might have been 100 years ago.
So that.
Or an overgrazed pasture.
Yeah.
A lot of it has been that for a long time.
You know, some of our areas, there's not even topsoil left because it eroded because of
some of the land use practices.
And there's not a lot of the south.
(30:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, there's not a lot we can do about it in many of those cases.
But it's definitely, you know, adding all these non-native species that have been introduced
over the last several decades.
You know, there's lots of issues and you've got to understand that issue and then try
(30:55):
to figure out a plan.
And some of that is trial and error because your context might be different than the,
you know, the next hill over or the next landowner over.
So it's a challenge.
And, you know, you and I have lamented about this, the difficulties of trying to get these,
the field management right across all the different contexts that we see all the time.
(31:18):
It's just a real challenge.
Yeah, the past use history, the soil quality, the moisture regime on the field, like what
surrounds it, all those things.
So, but yeah, the disc line, I mean, you know, it can be an effective fire containment tool.
(31:40):
The one limitation that I will say that it has is if you're going through, you know,
kind of like with the, we were talking about with the blower, there's an area that has
a lot of undergrowth.
It's going to be difficult, you know, especially like around fields that have a lot of grass
that, you know, that thatch is very difficult to get rid of.
You may have to disc it multiple times.
(32:02):
And even then you still may not have a continuous layer of mineral soil.
Yeah.
But adequate for containment in a lot of cases.
For sure.
What are we missing?
Well, I think, I don't know if we necessarily have addressed the questions as directly as
(32:25):
may have been wanted, but, you know, I feel like we were just talking, we got into more
of making sure you go through these P's and Q's about what the, how to make a firebreak
effective.
Yeah.
So, and one thing I see it fairly commonly, and you kind of reminded me of it.
(32:47):
When you're, when you're getting ready to burn, run around your firebreaks again, even
if you put them in last week.
Yeah.
Like make sure that a tree didn't fall across it or didn't have, you know, a bunch of leaves
fall on it or something.
I've just, I've had that happen a few times or had people tell me about it where they
(33:09):
had a jump because they didn't, you know, they put their firebreak in yesterday and
they didn't go around it before they lit the day and something had happened that they
didn't expect.
You know, just make sure, make sure you go check it one last time.
I'll give you my other words of wisdom related to that, that you jogged my memory on is go
(33:33):
around the firebreak and look for dead trees too.
You know, if you have a snag right on your firebreak and it catches on fire and falls
outside of your firebreak, that's a bad day.
So you don't necessarily have to fail those snags, but you might want to go around and
use your blower to blow out around those snags before you light off so that you don't end
(33:54):
up having to deal with that.
Nothing else.
There's nothing that'll ruin a good burn day, like catching a snag on fire.
Well, and that's a, you know, some of these tools we've talked about raking around it
or using your blower, blow out around it.
Yeah.
It'd be really effective.
But even then, you know, I will say that there's been some times where I've caught snags on
(34:15):
fire 20 feet off the ground.
Like it's not coming in from the bottom.
It's embers catching the higher branches on fire.
So.
Something good to make note of.
Yeah.
When you have a snag in a stand that has a sneaky way of causing trouble.
Yeah.
Well, that's good stuff.
(34:35):
I mean, it's probably rudimentary for some of y'all, but I know there's a lot of folks
just now starting to get into fire and thinking through these questions.
And I think that'll be really helpful to you as you go forward.
And if y'all have any follow-up questions to that, obviously feel free to reach out
and let us know.
Yeah.
Well, you know, like you said, people are coming.
(34:56):
We've got an audience across the whole spectrum of experience and knowledge and land
management.
And I'm glad that we do.
I'm glad that we've got people out there interested in trying to manage and, you know,
trying to get into some of this nitty gritty like this.
I'm sure that we could have covered it more thoroughly.
But, you know, with that being said, we have a lot of knowledgeable people in our audience.
(35:21):
And, you know, take a moment to drop us a comment if we missed something or you've got
an experience that's relevant or a different practice that might be widely usable or effective
for people, you know, something that we missed.
We have people commonly do that in the comment section anyway.
But just kind of think of it from that perspective.
(35:44):
We're not perfect.
We can't squeeze everything into, you know, an episode either.
And also, we haven't seen every context or every technique.
So think about that as an opportunity for you to share your experience and teach people
so that we can get more fire on the ground.
So I think ultimately, I hope everybody listening to this realizes that fire is a tool that
(36:12):
can be really effective to improve things for turkeys.
And generally speaking, we'd like a lot more people to get engaged and start using it to
make turkey habitat.
Yep.
And we're paying attention to y'all's questions too.
That was one of the ones listeners submitted to wildturkeyscience at gmail.com.
So if y'all have other ones, feel free to hit that up.
(36:35):
And Charlotte, our producer, keeps a good eye on that.
And then she'll send them over to us periodically.
Yeah, she sends them all the time.
I get back to as many of them as I can, but not all that I would like.
So we're doing our best, but we are paying attention.
We are reading it.
Yeah, it's definitely not all of them.
But a lot of times what we do is what we did here, where we kind of we see questions and
(37:00):
we don't necessarily respond to everyone, but we're kind of keeping a tally.
And we'll get to a level like this, like, man, we really got to do one on firebreaks.
Yeah.
That's because we've gotten a bunch of questions about this.
Yeah.
And I will say too, though, that there are some of those that we never respond to or
because we've covered them in previous episodes, if not multiple times.
(37:22):
We try to direct people to those, or we hold them and try to address them online when there's
a lot of people that want to know about it.
Yeah.
Like I saw a question from a few days ago that a listener submitted about, you know,
what does the hen do, like go into detail about the laying process and the nesting process?
(37:43):
Well, we did all that in that relatively recent episode where you were reading
through some of Lovett's observations.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we can link that episode for that listener.
Yeah.
So we're not ignoring you, but we're also trying to be efficient with our time.
Absolutely.
You know, yeah, that's a good point.
(38:03):
But I know one thing, we're really glad to have the listeners and so much activity and
so many things coming in because it really helps us stay motivated and on track to
deliver things that people want to hear about.
Yep.
100%.
(38:24):
All right.
Well, I hope you can stay cool because it's hot outside here.
I'm trying.
I'm trying.
Our turkeys in the facility, man, they're, you know, we've got plenty of shade and water
and everything for them.
Yeah.
They're in a good situation, but it's just so hot.
(38:45):
Yeah.
Like they're just, you know, you can see that effect on their face.
And I'll tell you what's been frustrating me lately is, you know, I have that lab puppy.
I mean, she's 16 months old.
So basically still a puppy, you know, and, uh, it's so hot right now.
I can't take her out and play with her for more than five minutes before she's just
completely blown out, you know, but, but that's not enough.
(39:08):
It's just enough to get her hot, but it's not enough to get all our energy out.
You know?
So once she recovers 10 minutes later inside the house, she's bouncing off the walls again.
And that's been driving me crazy.
And, you know, we, we take her down to the lake and stuff, but I'll tell you what, man,
the first few feet of the lake right now aren't much better.
They're like about 90 degrees until you get down to five or six feet right now.
(39:31):
So it's not very helpful either.
Yeah.
Our pool's over 90 degrees.
I looked at it yesterday.
Insane.
It's like taking a bath.
It's gross.
All right, let's get out of here.
We veered way too far off.
Thanks everybody.
Thanks for all the support.
Wild Turkey Science is part of the Natural Resources University Podcast Network and is
(39:58):
made possible by Turkeys for Tomorrow, a grassroots organization dedicated to the wild turkey.
To learn more about TFT, check out turkeysfortomorrow.org.
Turkeys for Tomorrow.
Turkeys for Tomorrow.
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