August 23, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode of the Next Level Human podcast, Dr. Jade Teta and Justin Janoska explore the concept of subconscious wounds, emphasizing that while many people do not identify with traditional trauma, they often carry 'mud' and 'cuts'—subtle, continuous emotional injuries that affect their lives. They discuss the importance of recognizing these patterns, the victim mindset, and the healing process, which involves rewriting personal narratives and integrating various therapeutic modalities. The conversation highlights the journey from breakdown to breakthrough, ultimately aiming for personal fulfillment and growth.
takeaways
- Everyone has mud, which represents subtle emotional injuries.
- Most people do not relate to trauma as traditionally defined.
- Patterns in life often reveal underlying subconscious wounds.
- The victim mindset is a necessary phase for healing but must be transcended.
- Healing involves authentic storytelling and ownership of one's experiences.
- Helping others heal can facilitate personal healing.
- Integration of various therapeutic modalities is crucial for effective healing.
- The rewrite process is about editing one's historical narrative to find empowerment.
- Fulfillment is a deeper goal than mere happiness.
- Personal growth requires escaping societal norms and evolving as unique individuals.
Contact Justin: TikTok & IG. @justinjanoska
00:00:00 Introduction to Subconscious Wounds
00:03:13 Understanding Mud and Cuts
00:06:43 How Life Reveals Hidden Wounds
00:09:45 Leaving the Victim Mindset Behind
00:14:34 Tools for Healing Unconscious Trauma
00:19:59 Integration and Story Architecture
00:26:57 From Breakdown to Evolution
Connect with Next Level Human
Website: www.nextlevelhuman.com
support@nextlevelhuman.com
Connect with Dr. Jade Teta
Website: www.jadeteta.com
Instagram: @jadeteta
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
what's going on everybody?
Welcome to the show.
This is the next level humanpodcast.
I know some of you are seeingthis on other platforms, um, for
the first time.
I think this is the first timeI've been live on actually maybe
I was with live with danny onsubstack but welcome.
My name is dr jane tita.
(00:23):
This is the next level humanshow and this is my good friend
and colleague, justin Janoska,and we're going to take about I
don't know, maybe 30 minutes orso to talk a little bit about
subconscious wounds and the wayI'll set this up and then I'll
let you kind of get into it,justin.
Is that the way that Justin andI, the work that we do, we kind
(00:45):
of are in this.
You know, don't let me putwords in your mouth either, but
it feels like we're both.
We're both in this in-betweenspace where it seems to us that,
you know, the trauma space is aspace that both of us are
really, really interested in,and but one of the things that
we talk about a lot is the factthat most people really don't
(01:07):
relate to having trauma andthat's because they tend to see
it as capital T traumas, so rape, war, physical abuse, you know,
sexual abuse, that kind ofstuff.
But the people that you and Iwork with, we know that they're
dealing with this all of thetime and they're unconscious,
and so one of the things thatJustin and I like to say is that
(01:28):
very few people have trauma,but everyone has mud my version
of it and everyone has a cut,which is Justin's version of it
and we'll get into this idea ofmud and cuts, but maybe I'll set
it up and essentially say itthis way Most of us don't have
(01:48):
trauma.
We've got drama, meaning thatit's the story we tell about our
suffering that determines thequality of our lives and
determines whether or not we canheal from even physical stuff.
If we start getting into moreof the quantum metabolism, if
we're going to use that kind ofweird term but getting over
(02:11):
heartbreak, you know, in ourpersonal relationships, or
mother wounds and father wounds,and, um, healing ourselves and
our health, you know, uh.
And and then dealing with youknow things like financial and
money mindsets and stuff likethat.
And so when we talk about themud and the cut, I'll let you
first define what you mean bythe cut, because it's not trauma
(02:32):
in the typical way.
In fact, we all have it.
It's just hidden, and so how doyou see it?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, it's a great question and actually thinking
about myself, right, because Icould say that I had a cut and
it probably was my parents'divorce, without even me
realizing it, but I never wouldhave called it trauma.
So I can actually relate toprobably most of my clients and
yours, right.
So it affected me for sure.
You know, I think it drove meto have an anxious, preoccupied
(03:01):
attachment style and these kindsof things and not feeling seen
or not feeling secure withinmyself, right, but that's kind
of what I mean and what we bothmean, because there's like this
sort of subconscious imprintingthat happens and that's going to
affect your identity and theway you view the world.
Right, I know you talk a lotabout your experience on the
(03:24):
baseball field, right, andthat's kind of what that is.
It's a very subtle kind ofthing that you may not call
traumatic, right, so call itwhatever you want.
I think mud and cuts are greatwords or acronyms, and that
being continuous unconscioustrauma, and the key word being
unconscious, right, and traumais not really what it is.
(03:47):
It's just another way of sayingan injury, but it doesn't look
like, you know, the naturaldisaster or the sexual abuse
that we mostly think of it as.
Yeah, so yours is continuousunconscious traumas, yeah, and
the continuous thing isimportant because most of the
time it's in line with um, youknow, complex trauma, which
(04:14):
really is, when we're looking atpsychology research, that's
more defining, uh, defined by um, uh, persistent, you know,
chronic episodes of de-stressingand de-stabilizing events.
So that means things likearound not having your needs met
over a period of time, manyyears, not feeling acknowledged
(04:37):
or being belittled or criticizedby a parent, growing up with an
alcoholic father, things likethat right, and that's kind of
why it's subtle and invisible ina sense, because we're not.
Even if we're really young,we're not going to know.
Remember it right.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, and the fact that it's subtle means the fact
that it's subtle and unconsciousmeans we don't relate to it as
having any real issues for us.
And I love this idea of the cut.
You know so, continuousunconscious trauma, subtle,
continuous insults to thepsychology.
(05:13):
Mine is mud, misguided,unconscious decisions.
And so from that perspective,it's the idea that we have
things happen to us at timeschildhood development, teenage
development, young adultdevelopment.
Of course they can happenanytime in our lives where we
don't have the knowledge and thewisdom and the experience to
know how, the skill sets, thematurity to deal with those
(05:36):
things.
And that's why they'remisguided, because things happen
and we make this decisionwithout the tools, without the
maturity, without the wisdom,without the knowledge, without
the know-how.
And essentially it is alsounconscious, subtle in a sense.
In other words, it doesn'tnecessarily follow us around.
Now it is true that capital Ttraumas can major, shocking,
(05:58):
severe, sudden emotional eventthat we're aware of.
They talk about that in theresearch as SEES events, s-e-e
events, sudden or severeemotional events.
We're talking about subtleemotional events, subtle and
(06:18):
continuous emotional events,this mud and this cut, okay.
So, this being the case, Ithink to myself I don't think
I've ever met a client and as Iwork as a clinician and a coach
and a counselor those are allthe domains I've worked in I
don't think I've ever seen aclient or a patient not have mud
and cuts.
How do you see it?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I mean, after doing this for quite a number of years
, I think it's now easy toreflect back and be like, yeah,
that client had something, had acut, had mud, so did this one.
Now I can't unsee it, it's allI see.
It's like I'm very much focusedin on that.
The question is, do they see it?
And that's, I think, half thebattles.
(07:00):
Sometimes they do, sometimesthey don't.
But you know, I think it'simportant for other people to
kind of help them look in adifferent direction, because
sometimes we need that right.
For someone to point it out tous like a therapist would
perhaps right.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Well, yeah, and the way I oftentimes say that and
you and I were just talkingabout this before we went live I
oftentimes go.
They won't see it, but lifewill, their life will, and what
I mean by that is that.
And this is this is where maybewe get into a little bit of the
woo.
Right, it's this idea that youknow, call it what you want,
call it God, call it universe.
(07:33):
I call it source consciousness.
If you're a physicist, maybe youcall it a zero point field, but
it's this idea that life,there's this information that is
surrounding us, from ourconsciousness that is dialoguing
with us.
Let me make it more simple.
If you have recurrent patternsin your life, repeated obstacles
that come up again and again,stuck emotions that show up year
(07:56):
after year after year, to methis is your consciousness field
sending you feedback.
So maybe you don't relate tothe mud or the cut or the trauma
, but ultimately you are stuckin your patterns and as those
repeated patterns, recurrentobstacles, stuck emotions,
struggles on repeat, thatbasically tell you whether you
(08:18):
have this or not.
And so I don't think mostpeople are going to relate to
this work from the standpoint.
If I say to you do you havesubtle, continuous, unconscious
traumas that have impacted yourlife.
They're going to be like well,no, I don't have any traumas.
I don't remember anything.
I had a great upbringing.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So did I, by the way.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
I had an amazing upbringing, but I did have
events in my life that causedthese repeated patterns,
recurrent struggles, and let mejust just to make it tangible,
then I want to hear what youhave to say on this, just just
so everyone knows.
So I had an incredibly lovingmother and father.
My mom was incrediblyemotionally volatile, though,
because she had a very difficultrelationship with her mom, and
(08:59):
so growing up I could run aroundthe house with mud on my feet
One minute.
She was fine with it.
The next minute I'd leave asock on the floor and be getting
spanked and she'd be freakingout.
I'd frequently find her, youknow, sobbing in her room and
stuff like that.
That stuff made me distrust.
I didn't know, but I formed mud, misguided, unconscious
decisions around female energyand female emotions.
(09:21):
So then, when I started datingand then it impacted every
relationship I was in how did Iknow?
Repeated patterns, recurrentobstacles, stuck emotions I did
not trust female emotions.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
That's how this shows up.
Yeah, and that makes me thinkabout my patterns, because I
didn't, for a long time, thinkabout how it could stem from.
I didn't know where it camefrom.
Right, I think my uh experiencewith my parents splitting was
maybe the foundation for why Ihad my patterns, which was, um,
you know, attracting people whowere anxious like me and
(09:58):
codependent, basically is whatit was Right.
But that was life showing me, Ithink, and I hit my rock bottom
with that at some point andrealized, and you know, that's
kind of when, I think, I met youand then, um, I was like I'm
going to be alone for threeyears and that's what I did and
I worked on myself and that'snow I'm like completely in the
other direction.
But that's how you know.
Yeah, and any of you listeningto this, who've had a dark night
(10:20):
of the soul.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yours happened fairly early, right?
You're like you were 10 years,yours was like early thirties,
mine was early forties.
I went through my sort of darknight of the soul.
I actually see life as havingreally two phases.
There's the conditioning phase,where you get a lot of the mud
and cuts, and then there's theawakening phase, where you have
to learn that fault isirrelevant and you wake up to
(10:41):
taking responsibility for themud and the cuts and you wake up
to taking responsibility forthe mud and the cuts Right.
And once you wake up and to meone of my favorite philosophers,
alain de Botton I don't know,I'm not French, I don't know if
I'm saying that Alain de Bottonhe has a quote that I love, that
is.
It basically goes it's not themidlife crisis, it's the midlife
(11:04):
awakening and it is our finalchance to escape adolescence.
And I love that quote because Ido think you know no judgment
here, but I do think, ultimately, what the hallmark,
quintessential nature of ateenager adolescence is is they
see everyone else's shit but areblind to their own Right.
And until you takeresponsibility for your own
(11:25):
stuff and wake up to that andtake responsibility for the mud
and the cuts.
I think you're stuck.
And I'll say one more thingabout this, because I know this
is going to be triggering and Iwant to see how you deal with
this too, and I think it'll betriggering to some of you
listening to this as well.
To me, this is all about thevictim state and the victim
mindset and learning to leavethe victim mindset and the
(11:48):
victim state behind.
Now, I know that's triggering,so let me just spell this out.
Then I want to get your take onthis.
It is my conviction thateveryone must be a victim for a
time.
It is a requirement for healingto be the victim, and all of us
humans, if we want to be goodhumans, we have to have a degree
(12:09):
of compassion and empathy forpeople who have been harmed and
gone through difficult stuff ashumans, we all have.
That being said, and it's notup to us to say when it should
happen, by the way but, thatbeing said, every person, I also
think, must eventually leavethe victim mindset behind in
order to heal, and many don't.
(12:31):
And again, no judgment there.
I know it's the hardest thingwe do as humans, but to me, what
we're really talking about isthe idea that I refuse now to be
a victim.
When you went through yourthing, right where you're, like
this dark night of the soulthree years alone, at some point
in there you had to recognizethis is me and my issue and I
have to do something about it.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah, I was a victim for a few months.
I think.
With that I can tell you that.
No, uh, I'll be completelyhonest about that, and I don't
know, I can't remember why orwhat catalyzed me to not be that
way.
Um, I think probably having youaround helped a bit, but you
know, you need, you need, youneed somebody or something to
(13:08):
shake you out of it If you, um,can't see it on your own and I
don't know, I think, I thinkperception is obviously the
hardest thing there, cause youmaybe don't know any other way,
and that's like, well, what wasme?
Kind of thing.
And, um, you could say the samewith a chronic illness, like,
if you don't know any otheroptions, well, of course, you're
just going to stay that way asa victim, Right, and I think
(13:29):
that's what helped me is becauseI knew that at that time that I
learned, rather, that there isa way to transform this,
alchemize it, and you know, asyou call it, pain is a purpose
or tragedy and the triumph,right, kind of thing.
And that's exactly whathappened.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, it's almost like you.
I think the way the shortcut tobeating the victim state and I
think the shortcut to and I'mcurious what you think about
this but I think the shortcut tohealing the mud and the cuts is
essentially number one theauthentic telling of our story
of struggle.
That, I think is important.
Like this is why I think 12steps works really well.
(14:08):
It's really about and if youparse that research it's really
about telling your story, andyou know I love Brene Brown's
quote here shame cannot survivethe light of day.
So, first, I think yourauthentic telling of your story
of struggle is critical.
The next piece of that, though,is full ownership and
integration of what's happened,meaning that we don't forget
(14:28):
about it.
We don't distract, deny blame,complain, whimper, whine, avoid
an attack right, that's thevictim state going into the
villain state, but instead we gookay, this happened to me.
I have gone through this process.
I have learned some things.
Now, not only do I tell thestory authentically, some things
Now, not only do I tell thestory authentically, but I look
(14:50):
for people going through thesame story who are a little bit
behind me, that I have somelessons to teach them, because
they're going through thisstruggle and I help them.
So I think those are the twostages.
One tell your authentic storyof struggle.
Number two find peoplesuffering from the same hurt you
yourself have suffered and lookto help them learn the lessons
you yourself have alreadylearned.
And I think that's how youbegin this process, and the
(15:12):
beautiful thing about that isthat can be chosen at any moment
.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah, and actually that's whatI think I did without even
knowing at the time,subconsciously I probably
probably did, but I didn'treally think about it because I
was already doing this line ofwork with helping people with
sickness and illness.
But obviously I didn't dealwith that myself.
But I think with the emotionalpain and you can see that in
(15:38):
clients, you have a differentawareness around this.
You can kind of see like theirown cuts in a sense.
Again, didn't see it then,didn't call it that then, but I
think that probably helped me ina lot of ways.
Right, as you say, when youkind of help other people heal,
you heal yourself.
And that's essentially what Idid, I think, and I really,
(15:58):
really shifted me out of it themost.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, I actually think that there is no healing
until you begin to help othersheal.
It's like the final healinghappens in that process.
So we don't have a whole lot oftime for this.
Like another 15 minutes, let'suh, instead of making this a
dialogue about um.
Another 15 minutes, let's uh,instead of making this a a
dialogue about um.
You know what's gone wrong?
Tell me your, tell me the waysthat you deal with helping
(16:20):
people get over their cut, andthen I'll go through, like what
are the steps?
Like what are the steps thatyou know, you and I basically
walk people through to help themget over this subtle,
continuous, unconscious dramathat is stuck in their nervous
system.
By the way, I think we wouldboth say not just stuck in their
nervous system, but stuck intheir biofield, in a sense,
which that's where we could havea whole nother conversation
(16:42):
about how this gets turned intophysical illness.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Right, and that's mostly the connection I'm making
these days is with physicalillness.
But yeah, how to work throughthis.
I mean, the interesting thingis there's so many different
ingredients, as I call it, and Ithat's kind of how I think
about it, because peoplenowadays I'm sure you see it too
really latch on to you knowit's psychodynamic therapy or in
DR, hypnosis or talk therapy orwhatever it's out there and
(17:10):
like I do this thing and that'sgoing to be the thing that
solves the issue for me, when alot of times it doesn't, and
then they move on to the nextthing and then to the next thing
, like a checklist, and they'reoften disillusioned and
disappointed.
Right, and there's a whole, Ithink, a reason behind why I
think there are shortcomingswith these therapies.
(17:30):
But the way I was trained beforeI went to do my doctorate
degree and what I'm working onnow, it was all about mind body
medicine.
It was a lot of telling yourstory and using, you know,
philosophy from Buddhism a lot.
That's what I learned rightaway from these therapists and
teachers of mine, so I wasalready immersed into that and
(17:53):
it was really eye-opening,because that really was the
healing of medicine wascompassion and kindness and, um,
you know, acts of service anddoing these kinds of things.
But I think to your question,it is not so much a logical
thing that we can, um, reallytalk.
I always tell people like youcan't, I can't talk you out of
an emotion you don't want tohave into an emotion you do want
(18:13):
, or I can't talk you out of abehavior you don't want to have
into yeah, because it'ssubconscious, so logical
rational-based stuff ain't goingto work, Right?
So, especially if you're in acodependent relationship or a
trauma bond, you're not going totalk them out of that.
So it really comes down to thesomatic, physical level and and
(18:36):
cause it's.
You know, it's reallyentrenched in your nervous
system, right?
So how do you teach the body anew language of safety and peace
and love and and it's gotta beat a deep emotional experience
and embodied experience, andthere are a lot of ways to do
that, I think.
Just conceptually, that's kindof how I think we need to look
at it.
And that's where you know othermodalities are more effective
(18:59):
than talk therapy.
That's usually prevalent rightnow.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, I would agree with that and I come at it from
a similar angle and then I'lljust make an addition to that.
To me, I look at it likebecause this stuff is
subconscious the first types oftools and there's many that can
do this, but the first type oftool is a tool that can be
unconscious.
So you want things that can getinto the alpha and theta
brainwave states so that you canloosen up the default mode
(19:24):
network and begin to see some ofthose belief structures that
are there, that form youridentity.
There's many tools that can dothat.
There's memory reconsolidation,there's EMDR, there's others.
Obviously, psychedelics can bereally wonderful for this, but
those things alone obviously toyour point.
(19:45):
That's why people have to keepgoing back, because it's not
just about rewriting the storyand finding the unconscious
story and drama.
It's also about rewiring theemotional holding patterns and
nervous system and then it'sabout retraining the habits and
behaviors.
So what I think is going on inthis space is that most people
will focus on one area of that.
So rewrite, rewire, retrain,they all have to be done.
(20:05):
But what happens is certaintools only focus in certain
areas.
So, let's say, alpha and thetabrainwave state work like
hypnosis and you know breathwork, you know and stuff like
that Dimensionalizedconsciousness work.
That's the rewrite phase.
But then you got stuff like youknow that rewires the nervous
system.
This would be stuff like maybelike Joe Dispenza's type work or
(20:27):
stuff like that.
It's more about the rewiring,the emotional stuff.
But then you also have the oldcoaching stuff, tiny habits and
logic-based insights in therapyand coaching.
So I think therapy and coachingdoesn't always seep as deep as
we want because these othertools aren't there.
Now a lot of therapists areactually starting to use some of
these tools, but I think if youunderstand that all three need,
(20:49):
you need to have the all threetools.
You need to have a rewritingtool that gets in that alpha
theta brainwave state and youknow that default mode network
and starts looking at the beliefstructures.
You need to have the rewiringphase that rewires the emotional
holding pattern and nervoussystem.
Then you have to have theretrain phase, like what's
actually happening in the realworld, and I think that's why
it's so difficult, because allthree of those things need to be
(21:11):
there.
They're these, these tools likeEMDR and stuff like that that
they don't do at all and so youneed, you know, a therapist or a
practitioner who knows how toput these things together, and
right now I think we're in thewild, wild West in that that
area, so we're making a lot ofprogress, but not everyone has
put these tools together in thatway, so I don't know if that's
(21:31):
that's how you see it.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I do see it that way.
It's too compartmentalized,right, because people will tell
me I see a psychotherapist forthis stuff and then I go see a
somatic person for this and anenergy worker for this.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
It's like you need an integrator, right, you need
someone who can integrate allthat.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, and it just doesn't make a lot of sense
because you are gettingdifferent pieces of support from
each of these people.
I'm sure it's helpful, but isit really creating the change
that you want?
And you find a lot of timesit's not, and you wonder why.
And I think actually one thingthat's lacking, and maybe you
see it this way, is they don'thave a lot of homework, we'll
(22:11):
say, or things to do betweensessions or meetings.
What are they doing?
Meditating and journaling.
Is that really enough, right?
Because that's what they'reoften told.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah Well, the meditating and journaling is the
rewrite and rewire.
So there I look at like the,the exposure therapies, and
that's where CBT and stuff likethat can be really useful.
You need to have those exposurethere.
So none of my clients go awaywithout homework.
That is challenging for them.
Like, hey, you're going to havethis conversation or you're
going to do this particularthing in real life because your
brain needs to see it.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
That's what's missing , right, that's probably half of
it that people are missing, andthat's why I think it's hard to
you know, get long lastingchange.
They feel good for a while, butthen they're kind of back to
old, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
And I would add one more thing to this, and then I
want to see your thoughts, andthen we can wrap, because I know
you're in a hurry.
So here's the way I see thistoo.
I also think part of thisrewrite phase.
Let's just talk about thisrewrite phase for a minute,
because to me, what typicallyhappens here is it's what do we
(23:15):
mean by rewrite?
It's not erase, it's, it's aform of editing, and so, and the
way that I think that workneeds to be done is it needs to
be done in a way where you takesomeone's historical narrative
and they have got to find a wayin this process and we can make
another quote, you know, sort ofwoo woo assumption.
(23:36):
But what if and this is theassumption I make I don't know
if this is true, but what if?
Every single thing that ishappening to us as humans is
exactly what is required for usto be exposed to, so that we can
learn the lesson we didn't knowwe needed, so that we can get
to the place we didn't know wewanted to go?
And the only reason I phrase itthat way is because how many of
(23:58):
us in life have seen it be thatway, where something happens
and we're in this turmoil.
It's the worst thing ever, butthen we realize we gain an
insight and understanding, andthen we end up getting to a
place we didn't know that wewanted to be.
And isn't this also the hero'sjourney?
We hear about this in everygreat story that's ever been
written for humans, and so, in asense, in this rewriting phase,
(24:20):
I think what we really need tobe doing is that practitioners
also need not to add anotherthing that we all need, but we
need to understand a very deepunderstanding of story
architecture and how to, whenwe're in that rewrite phase, to
help people understand we can'tjettison everything that
happened to them.
We need to include that in theirstory architecture.
(24:41):
We just need to help themrewrite it in a way that makes
them the hero of that process.
That's why the authentictelling of our story of struggle
, number one and then going outand being like I've made the
journey, I'm Luke Skywalker, I'mHarry Potter, now I'm here to
help you, right, right, like tome, that's it.
But if we try to just go, I'mgoing to not look at this stuff
(25:02):
and try to erase it or edit itin the wrong way.
In other words, we have a wordfor this, it's very prevalent,
we all use it integration.
I just think that we're notintegrating correctly.
We need to integrate therewrite, rewire, retrain, but we
also in that, within thatrewrite phase, we need to
integrate the historicalnarrative of the person into
(25:27):
their future.
Next level, human self.
Those things, if those thingshappen, I think people I don't
think they will.
Not only will they thrive, butthey will be the best possible
versions of themselves.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yes, and that's a key thing, because it's like
getting out of survival mode ismaybe the first goal, right, and
being the being you know, quote, unquote normal.
And then it's like, okay, nowyou're out of the ground, you're
, you're standing.
Now how do you rise into thisnext best version of you?
Right, that's got to be thesecond phase, so people can do
(26:01):
the therapies and all this stuff, but they're probably not doing
this.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
The second part yeah, right, yeah, and I would say,
uh, the way I might say that in,it's like there's a breakdown
to breakthrough phase, rightwhere you're broken down and you
break through.
Now you're back to normal.
And then I think the next pieceis there's this idea of escape
and evolution, and what I meanby escape is escape the culture
level mantras, the culture levelunderstandings, and basically
(26:28):
own the fact that, a we're allunique.
B there's never been anotherversion of us ever on the planet
, nor will there be again.
And C as a result of that, wehave unique work to do, and my
theory is that, you know, whathumans really want is not
happiness, they want fulfillment, they want to matter and make a
difference.
And so that last part that youtalk about, whereas it's now
(26:50):
escape and evolve, that's thepart that I think everyone
craves.
But you're right, a lot ofpeople do need to get through
breakdown to breakthrough.
Yeah, and no question aboutthat.
Yeah, cool, all right.
Well, thanks for hanging outeverybody.
I know that's a quick littlesort of mix up, but we got a
roll and hopefully you enjoyedthis brief discussion with
(27:11):
Justin and myself.
We will talk to you next time.
what's going on everybody?
Welcome to the show.
This is the next level humanpodcast.
I know some of you are seeingthis on other platforms, um, for
the first time.
I think this is the first timeI've been live on actually maybe
I was with live with danny onsubstack but welcome.
My name is dr jane tita.
(00:23):
This is the next level humanshow and this is my good friend
and colleague, justin Janoska,and we're going to take about I
don't know, maybe 30 minutes orso to talk a little bit about
subconscious wounds and the wayI'll set this up and then I'll
let you kind of get into it,justin.
Is that the way that Justin andI, the work that we do, we kind
(00:45):
of are in this.
You know, don't let me putwords in your mouth either, but
it feels like we're both.
We're both in this in-betweenspace where it seems to us that,
you know, the trauma space is aspace that both of us are
really, really interested in,and but one of the things that
we talk about a lot is the factthat most people really don't
(01:07):
relate to having trauma andthat's because they tend to see
it as capital T traumas, so rape, war, physical abuse, you know,
sexual abuse, that kind ofstuff.
But the people that you and Iwork with, we know that they're
dealing with this all of thetime and they're unconscious,
and so one of the things thatJustin and I like to say is that
(01:28):
very few people have trauma,but everyone has mud my version
of it and everyone has a cut,which is Justin's version of it
and we'll get into this idea ofmud and cuts, but maybe I'll set
it up and essentially say itthis way Most of us don't have
(01:48):
trauma.
We've got drama, meaning thatit's the story we tell about our
suffering that determines thequality of our lives and
determines whether or not we canheal from even physical stuff.
If we start getting into moreof the quantum metabolism, if
we're going to use that kind ofweird term but getting over
(02:11):
heartbreak, you know, in ourpersonal relationships, or
mother wounds and father wounds,and, um, healing ourselves and
our health, you know, uh.
And and then dealing with youknow things like financial and
money mindsets and stuff likethat.
And so when we talk about themud and the cut, I'll let you
first define what you mean bythe cut, because it's not trauma
(02:32):
in the typical way.
In fact, we all have it.
It's just hidden, and so how doyou see it?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, it's a great question and actually thinking
about myself, right, because Icould say that I had a cut and
it probably was my parents'divorce, without even me
realizing it, but I never wouldhave called it trauma.
So I can actually relate toprobably most of my clients and
yours, right.
So it affected me for sure.
You know, I think it drove meto have an anxious, preoccupied
(03:01):
attachment style and these kindsof things and not feeling seen
or not feeling secure withinmyself, right, but that's kind
of what I mean and what we bothmean, because there's like this
sort of subconscious imprintingthat happens and that's going to
affect your identity and theway you view the world.
Right, I know you talk a lotabout your experience on the
(03:24):
baseball field, right, andthat's kind of what that is.
It's a very subtle kind ofthing that you may not call
traumatic, right, so call itwhatever you want.
I think mud and cuts are greatwords or acronyms, and that
being continuous unconscioustrauma, and the key word being
unconscious, right, and traumais not really what it is.
(03:47):
It's just another way of sayingan injury, but it doesn't look
like, you know, the naturaldisaster or the sexual abuse
that we mostly think of it as.
Yeah, so yours is continuousunconscious traumas, yeah, and
the continuous thing isimportant because most of the
time it's in line with um, youknow, complex trauma, which
(04:14):
really is, when we're looking atpsychology research, that's
more defining, uh, defined by um, uh, persistent, you know,
chronic episodes of de-stressingand de-stabilizing events.
So that means things likearound not having your needs met
over a period of time, manyyears, not feeling acknowledged
(04:37):
or being belittled or criticizedby a parent, growing up with an
alcoholic father, things likethat right, and that's kind of
why it's subtle and invisible ina sense, because we're not.
Even if we're really young,we're not going to know.
Remember it right.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, and the fact that it's subtle means the fact
that it's subtle and unconsciousmeans we don't relate to it as
having any real issues for us.
And I love this idea of the cut.
You know so, continuousunconscious trauma, subtle,
continuous insults to thepsychology.
(05:13):
Mine is mud, misguided,unconscious decisions.
And so from that perspective,it's the idea that we have
things happen to us at timeschildhood development, teenage
development, young adultdevelopment.
Of course they can happenanytime in our lives where we
don't have the knowledge and thewisdom and the experience to
know how, the skill sets, thematurity to deal with those
(05:36):
things.
And that's why they'remisguided, because things happen
and we make this decisionwithout the tools, without the
maturity, without the wisdom,without the knowledge, without
the know-how.
And essentially it is alsounconscious, subtle in a sense.
In other words, it doesn'tnecessarily follow us around.
Now it is true that capital Ttraumas can major, shocking,
(05:58):
severe, sudden emotional eventthat we're aware of.
They talk about that in theresearch as SEES events, s-e-e
events, sudden or severeemotional events.
We're talking about subtleemotional events, subtle and
(06:18):
continuous emotional events,this mud and this cut, okay.
So, this being the case, Ithink to myself I don't think
I've ever met a client and as Iwork as a clinician and a coach
and a counselor those are allthe domains I've worked in I
don't think I've ever seen aclient or a patient not have mud
and cuts.
How do you see it?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I mean, after doing this for quite a number of years
, I think it's now easy toreflect back and be like, yeah,
that client had something, had acut, had mud, so did this one.
Now I can't unsee it, it's allI see.
It's like I'm very much focusedin on that.
The question is, do they see it?
And that's, I think, half thebattles.
(07:00):
Sometimes they do, sometimesthey don't.
But you know, I think it'simportant for other people to
kind of help them look in adifferent direction, because
sometimes we need that right.
For someone to point it out tous like a therapist would
perhaps right.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Well, yeah, and the way I oftentimes say that and
you and I were just talkingabout this before we went live I
oftentimes go.
They won't see it, but lifewill, their life will, and what
I mean by that is that.
And this is this is where maybewe get into a little bit of the
woo.
Right, it's this idea that youknow, call it what you want,
call it God, call it universe.
(07:33):
I call it source consciousness.
If you're a physicist, maybe youcall it a zero point field, but
it's this idea that life,there's this information that is
surrounding us, from ourconsciousness that is dialoguing
with us.
Let me make it more simple.
If you have recurrent patternsin your life, repeated obstacles
that come up again and again,stuck emotions that show up year
(07:56):
after year after year, to methis is your consciousness field
sending you feedback.
So maybe you don't relate tothe mud or the cut or the trauma
, but ultimately you are stuckin your patterns and as those
repeated patterns, recurrentobstacles, stuck emotions,
struggles on repeat, thatbasically tell you whether you
(08:18):
have this or not.
And so I don't think mostpeople are going to relate to
this work from the standpoint.
If I say to you do you havesubtle, continuous, unconscious
traumas that have impacted yourlife.
They're going to be like well,no, I don't have any traumas.
I don't remember anything.
I had a great upbringing.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So did I, by the way.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
I had an amazing upbringing, but I did have
events in my life that causedthese repeated patterns,
recurrent struggles, and let mejust just to make it tangible,
then I want to hear what youhave to say on this, just just
so everyone knows.
So I had an incredibly lovingmother and father.
My mom was incrediblyemotionally volatile, though,
because she had a very difficultrelationship with her mom, and
(08:59):
so growing up I could run aroundthe house with mud on my feet
One minute.
She was fine with it.
The next minute I'd leave asock on the floor and be getting
spanked and she'd be freakingout.
I'd frequently find her, youknow, sobbing in her room and
stuff like that.
That stuff made me distrust.
I didn't know, but I formed mud, misguided, unconscious
decisions around female energyand female emotions.
(09:21):
So then, when I started datingand then it impacted every
relationship I was in how did Iknow?
Repeated patterns, recurrentobstacles, stuck emotions I did
not trust female emotions.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
That's how this shows up.
Yeah, and that makes me thinkabout my patterns, because I
didn't, for a long time, thinkabout how it could stem from.
I didn't know where it camefrom.
Right, I think my uh experiencewith my parents splitting was
maybe the foundation for why Ihad my patterns, which was, um,
you know, attracting people whowere anxious like me and
(09:58):
codependent, basically is whatit was Right.
But that was life showing me, Ithink, and I hit my rock bottom
with that at some point andrealized, and you know, that's
kind of when, I think, I met youand then, um, I was like I'm
going to be alone for threeyears and that's what I did and
I worked on myself and that'snow I'm like completely in the
other direction.
But that's how you know.
Yeah, and any of you listeningto this, who've had a dark night
(10:20):
of the soul.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yours happened fairly early, right?
You're like you were 10 years,yours was like early thirties,
mine was early forties.
I went through my sort of darknight of the soul.
I actually see life as havingreally two phases.
There's the conditioning phase,where you get a lot of the mud
and cuts, and then there's theawakening phase, where you have
to learn that fault isirrelevant and you wake up to
(10:41):
taking responsibility for themud and the cuts and you wake up
to taking responsibility forthe mud and the cuts Right.
And once you wake up and to meone of my favorite philosophers,
alain de Botton I don't know,I'm not French, I don't know if
I'm saying that Alain de Bottonhe has a quote that I love, that
is.
It basically goes it's not themidlife crisis, it's the midlife
(11:04):
awakening and it is our finalchance to escape adolescence.
And I love that quote because Ido think you know no judgment
here, but I do think, ultimately, what the hallmark,
quintessential nature of ateenager adolescence is is they
see everyone else's shit but areblind to their own Right.
And until you takeresponsibility for your own
(11:25):
stuff and wake up to that andtake responsibility for the mud
and the cuts.
I think you're stuck.
And I'll say one more thingabout this, because I know this
is going to be triggering and Iwant to see how you deal with
this too, and I think it'll betriggering to some of you
listening to this as well.
To me, this is all about thevictim state and the victim
mindset and learning to leavethe victim mindset and the
(11:48):
victim state behind.
Now, I know that's triggering,so let me just spell this out.
Then I want to get your take onthis.
It is my conviction thateveryone must be a victim for a
time.
It is a requirement for healingto be the victim, and all of us
humans, if we want to be goodhumans, we have to have a degree
(12:09):
of compassion and empathy forpeople who have been harmed and
gone through difficult stuff ashumans, we all have.
That being said, and it's notup to us to say when it should
happen, by the way but, thatbeing said, every person, I also
think, must eventually leavethe victim mindset behind in
order to heal, and many don't.
(12:31):
And again, no judgment there.
I know it's the hardest thingwe do as humans, but to me, what
we're really talking about isthe idea that I refuse now to be
a victim.
When you went through yourthing, right where you're, like
this dark night of the soulthree years alone, at some point
in there you had to recognizethis is me and my issue and I
have to do something about it.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah, I was a victim for a few months.
I think.
With that I can tell you that.
No, uh, I'll be completelyhonest about that, and I don't
know, I can't remember why orwhat catalyzed me to not be that
way.
Um, I think probably having youaround helped a bit, but you
know, you need, you need, youneed somebody or something to
(13:08):
shake you out of it If you, um,can't see it on your own and I
don't know, I think, I thinkperception is obviously the
hardest thing there, cause youmaybe don't know any other way,
and that's like, well, what wasme?
Kind of thing.
And, um, you could say the samewith a chronic illness, like,
if you don't know any otheroptions, well, of course, you're
just going to stay that way asa victim, Right, and I think
(13:29):
that's what helped me is becauseI knew that at that time that I
learned, rather, that there isa way to transform this,
alchemize it, and you know, asyou call it, pain is a purpose
or tragedy and the triumph,right, kind of thing.
And that's exactly whathappened.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, it's almost like you.
I think the way the shortcut tobeating the victim state and I
think the shortcut to and I'mcurious what you think about
this but I think the shortcut tohealing the mud and the cuts is
essentially number one theauthentic telling of our story
of struggle.
That, I think is important.
Like this is why I think 12steps works really well.
(14:08):
It's really about and if youparse that research it's really
about telling your story, andyou know I love Brene Brown's
quote here shame cannot survivethe light of day.
So, first, I think yourauthentic telling of your story
of struggle is critical.
The next piece of that, though,is full ownership and
integration of what's happened,meaning that we don't forget
(14:28):
about it.
We don't distract, deny blame,complain, whimper, whine, avoid
an attack right, that's thevictim state going into the
villain state, but instead we gookay, this happened to me.
I have gone through this process.
I have learned some things.
Now, not only do I tell thestory authentically, some things
Now, not only do I tell thestory authentically, but I look
(14:50):
for people going through thesame story who are a little bit
behind me, that I have somelessons to teach them, because
they're going through thisstruggle and I help them.
So I think those are the twostages.
One tell your authentic storyof struggle.
Number two find peoplesuffering from the same hurt you
yourself have suffered and lookto help them learn the lessons
you yourself have alreadylearned.
And I think that's how youbegin this process, and the
(15:12):
beautiful thing about that isthat can be chosen at any moment
.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah, and actually that's whatI think I did without even
knowing at the time,subconsciously I probably
probably did, but I didn'treally think about it because I
was already doing this line ofwork with helping people with
sickness and illness.
But obviously I didn't dealwith that myself.
But I think with the emotionalpain and you can see that in
(15:38):
clients, you have a differentawareness around this.
You can kind of see like theirown cuts in a sense.
Again, didn't see it then,didn't call it that then, but I
think that probably helped me ina lot of ways.
Right, as you say, when youkind of help other people heal,
you heal yourself.
And that's essentially what Idid, I think, and I really,
(15:58):
really shifted me out of it themost.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, I actually think that there is no healing
until you begin to help othersheal.
It's like the final healinghappens in that process.
So we don't have a whole lot oftime for this.
Like another 15 minutes, let'suh, instead of making this a
dialogue about um.
Another 15 minutes, let's uh,instead of making this a a
dialogue about um.
You know what's gone wrong?
Tell me your, tell me the waysthat you deal with helping
(16:20):
people get over their cut, andthen I'll go through, like what
are the steps?
Like what are the steps thatyou know, you and I basically
walk people through to help themget over this subtle,
continuous, unconscious dramathat is stuck in their nervous
system.
By the way, I think we wouldboth say not just stuck in their
nervous system, but stuck intheir biofield, in a sense,
which that's where we could havea whole nother conversation
(16:42):
about how this gets turned intophysical illness.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Right, and that's mostly the connection I'm making
these days is with physicalillness.
But yeah, how to work throughthis.
I mean, the interesting thingis there's so many different
ingredients, as I call it, and Ithat's kind of how I think
about it, because peoplenowadays I'm sure you see it too
really latch on to you knowit's psychodynamic therapy or in
DR, hypnosis or talk therapy orwhatever it's out there and
(17:10):
like I do this thing and that'sgoing to be the thing that
solves the issue for me, when alot of times it doesn't, and
then they move on to the nextthing and then to the next thing
, like a checklist, and they'reoften disillusioned and
disappointed.
Right, and there's a whole, Ithink, a reason behind why I
think there are shortcomingswith these therapies.
(17:30):
But the way I was trained beforeI went to do my doctorate
degree and what I'm working onnow, it was all about mind body
medicine.
It was a lot of telling yourstory and using, you know,
philosophy from Buddhism a lot.
That's what I learned rightaway from these therapists and
teachers of mine, so I wasalready immersed into that and
(17:53):
it was really eye-opening,because that really was the
healing of medicine wascompassion and kindness and, um,
you know, acts of service anddoing these kinds of things.
But I think to your question,it is not so much a logical
thing that we can, um, reallytalk.
I always tell people like youcan't, I can't talk you out of
an emotion you don't want tohave into an emotion you do want
(18:13):
, or I can't talk you out of abehavior you don't want to have
into yeah, because it'ssubconscious, so logical
rational-based stuff ain't goingto work, Right?
So, especially if you're in acodependent relationship or a
trauma bond, you're not going totalk them out of that.
So it really comes down to thesomatic, physical level and and
(18:36):
cause it's.
You know, it's reallyentrenched in your nervous
system, right?
So how do you teach the body anew language of safety and peace
and love and and it's gotta beat a deep emotional experience
and embodied experience, andthere are a lot of ways to do
that, I think.
Just conceptually, that's kindof how I think we need to look
at it.
And that's where you know othermodalities are more effective
(18:59):
than talk therapy.
That's usually prevalent rightnow.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, I would agree with that and I come at it from
a similar angle and then I'lljust make an addition to that.
To me, I look at it likebecause this stuff is
subconscious the first types oftools and there's many that can
do this, but the first type oftool is a tool that can be
unconscious.
So you want things that can getinto the alpha and theta
brainwave states so that you canloosen up the default mode
(19:24):
network and begin to see some ofthose belief structures that
are there, that form youridentity.
There's many tools that can dothat.
There's memory reconsolidation,there's EMDR, there's others.
Obviously, psychedelics can bereally wonderful for this, but
those things alone obviously toyour point.
(19:45):
That's why people have to keepgoing back, because it's not
just about rewriting the storyand finding the unconscious
story and drama.
It's also about rewiring theemotional holding patterns and
nervous system and then it'sabout retraining the habits and
behaviors.
So what I think is going on inthis space is that most people
will focus on one area of that.
So rewrite, rewire, retrain,they all have to be done.
(20:05):
But what happens is certaintools only focus in certain
areas.
So, let's say, alpha and thetabrainwave state work like
hypnosis and you know breathwork, you know and stuff like
that Dimensionalizedconsciousness work.
That's the rewrite phase.
But then you got stuff like youknow that rewires the nervous
system.
This would be stuff like maybelike Joe Dispenza's type work or
(20:27):
stuff like that.
It's more about the rewiring,the emotional stuff.
But then you also have the oldcoaching stuff, tiny habits and
logic-based insights in therapyand coaching.
So I think therapy and coachingdoesn't always seep as deep as
we want because these othertools aren't there.
Now a lot of therapists areactually starting to use some of
these tools, but I think if youunderstand that all three need,
(20:49):
you need to have the all threetools.
You need to have a rewritingtool that gets in that alpha
theta brainwave state and youknow that default mode network
and starts looking at the beliefstructures.
You need to have the rewiringphase that rewires the emotional
holding pattern and nervoussystem.
Then you have to have theretrain phase, like what's
actually happening in the realworld, and I think that's why
it's so difficult, because allthree of those things need to be
(21:11):
there.
They're these, these tools likeEMDR and stuff like that that
they don't do at all and so youneed, you know, a therapist or a
practitioner who knows how toput these things together, and
right now I think we're in thewild, wild West in that that
area, so we're making a lot ofprogress, but not everyone has
put these tools together in thatway, so I don't know if that's
(21:31):
that's how you see it.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I do see it that way.
It's too compartmentalized,right, because people will tell
me I see a psychotherapist forthis stuff and then I go see a
somatic person for this and anenergy worker for this.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
It's like you need an integrator, right, you need
someone who can integrate allthat.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, and it just doesn't make a lot of sense
because you are gettingdifferent pieces of support from
each of these people.
I'm sure it's helpful, but isit really creating the change
that you want?
And you find a lot of timesit's not, and you wonder why.
And I think actually one thingthat's lacking, and maybe you
see it this way, is they don'thave a lot of homework, we'll
(22:11):
say, or things to do betweensessions or meetings.
What are they doing?
Meditating and journaling.
Is that really enough, right?
Because that's what they'reoften told.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah Well, the meditating and journaling is the
rewrite and rewire.
So there I look at like the,the exposure therapies, and
that's where CBT and stuff likethat can be really useful.
You need to have those exposurethere.
So none of my clients go awaywithout homework.
That is challenging for them.
Like, hey, you're going to havethis conversation or you're
going to do this particularthing in real life because your
brain needs to see it.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
That's what's missing , right, that's probably half of
it that people are missing, andthat's why I think it's hard to
you know, get long lastingchange.
They feel good for a while, butthen they're kind of back to
old, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
And I would add one more thing to this, and then I
want to see your thoughts, andthen we can wrap, because I know
you're in a hurry.
So here's the way I see thistoo.
I also think part of thisrewrite phase.
Let's just talk about thisrewrite phase for a minute,
because to me, what typicallyhappens here is it's what do we
(23:15):
mean by rewrite?
It's not erase, it's, it's aform of editing, and so, and the
way that I think that workneeds to be done is it needs to
be done in a way where you takesomeone's historical narrative
and they have got to find a wayin this process and we can make
another quote, you know, sort ofwoo woo assumption.
(23:36):
But what if and this is theassumption I make I don't know
if this is true, but what if?
Every single thing that ishappening to us as humans is
exactly what is required for usto be exposed to, so that we can
learn the lesson we didn't knowwe needed, so that we can get
to the place we didn't know wewanted to go?
And the only reason I phrase itthat way is because how many of
(23:58):
us in life have seen it be thatway, where something happens
and we're in this turmoil.
It's the worst thing ever, butthen we realize we gain an
insight and understanding, andthen we end up getting to a
place we didn't know that wewanted to be.
And isn't this also the hero'sjourney?
We hear about this in everygreat story that's ever been
written for humans, and so, in asense, in this rewriting phase,
(24:20):
I think what we really need tobe doing is that practitioners
also need not to add anotherthing that we all need, but we
need to understand a very deepunderstanding of story
architecture and how to, whenwe're in that rewrite phase, to
help people understand we can'tjettison everything that
happened to them.
We need to include that in theirstory architecture.
(24:41):
We just need to help themrewrite it in a way that makes
them the hero of that process.
That's why the authentictelling of our story of struggle
, number one and then going outand being like I've made the
journey, I'm Luke Skywalker, I'mHarry Potter, now I'm here to
help you, right, right, like tome, that's it.
But if we try to just go, I'mgoing to not look at this stuff
(25:02):
and try to erase it or edit itin the wrong way.
In other words, we have a wordfor this, it's very prevalent,
we all use it integration.
I just think that we're notintegrating correctly.
We need to integrate therewrite, rewire, retrain, but we
also in that, within thatrewrite phase, we need to
integrate the historicalnarrative of the person into
(25:27):
their future.
Next level, human self.
Those things, if those thingshappen, I think people I don't
think they will.
Not only will they thrive, butthey will be the best possible
versions of themselves.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yes, and that's a key thing, because it's like
getting out of survival mode ismaybe the first goal, right, and
being the being you know, quote, unquote normal.
And then it's like, okay, nowyou're out of the ground, you're
, you're standing.
Now how do you rise into thisnext best version of you?
Right, that's got to be thesecond phase, so people can do
(26:01):
the therapies and all this stuff, but they're probably not doing
this.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
The second part yeah, right, yeah, and I would say,
uh, the way I might say that in,it's like there's a breakdown
to breakthrough phase, rightwhere you're broken down and you
break through.
Now you're back to normal.
And then I think the next pieceis there's this idea of escape
and evolution, and what I meanby escape is escape the culture
level mantras, the culture levelunderstandings, and basically
(26:28):
own the fact that, a we're allunique.
B there's never been anotherversion of us ever on the planet
, nor will there be again.
And C as a result of that, wehave unique work to do, and my
theory is that, you know, whathumans really want is not
happiness, they want fulfillment, they want to matter and make a
difference.
And so that last part that youtalk about, whereas it's now
(26:50):
escape and evolve, that's thepart that I think everyone
craves.
But you're right, a lot ofpeople do need to get through
breakdown to breakthrough.
Yeah, and no question aboutthat.
Yeah, cool, all right.
Well, thanks for hanging outeverybody.
I know that's a quick littlesort of mix up, but we got a
roll and hopefully you enjoyedthis brief discussion with
(27:11):
Justin and myself.
We will talk to you next time.
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