September 29, 2025 • 37 mins
Forceful, command-and-control leadership isn’t just outdated; it’s limiting results.
In this episode of No More Mondays, Angie Callen sits down with Christopher Sprague, CEO of Enluma Leadership Group, to explore why extraordinary performance comes from putting people first.
Drawing on his Fortune 100 experience and his work at Enluma, Chris shares why trust, empathy, and vulnerability drive results that intimidation never will.
🎧 What you’ll learn in this episode:
-
Why forceful leadership breeds mediocrity
-
How trust and empathy unlock performance
-
The shift from intimidation to inspiration
-
What modern leadership must look like for the next generation
✨ Key Takeaway: Extraordinary results are possible when leaders put people first.
🔗 Connect with Christopher Sprague: LinkedIn | Enluma Leadership Group
🔗 Connect with Angie Callen: LinkedIn
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angie (00:11):
Callen, Good Monday morning, everybody. I am Angie
Callen, host of no more Mondays.Welcome to the show where we
believe you can have a thrivinglife, career and business on
your terms, and I bring youguests who prove it. This
episode is brought to you by themodern coach, my platform for
helping entrepreneurs andexecutives create those amazing
lives built around our valuesand our humanism. Check out more
(00:34):
at the modern coach.co where youcan explore your core values and
lean into what is most importantto you now, let's get on with
the show. Today's guest is oneof those people who just makes
you believe that betterLeadership isn't possible but
necessary, especially in thistime and place in the world.
Chris Sprague is the CEO ofIllumina Leadership Group, which
(00:56):
is the manifestation of years ofwork leading transformation
inside of fortune, 100 companieswhere his experience showed him
that it wasn't just the resultsthat were achieved that
mattered. It wasn't just thebusiness bottom line that
mattered. It was the people thathe helped realize and reach new
possibilities that left theirmark on him. That belief that we
(01:16):
can achieve extraordinaryresults in a healthy and
sustainable way is driving hiswork now, and it's the
foundation of and Luma, from whyforceful leadership is outdated
to why to what actually drivesperformance and how to modernize
leadership development for thenext generation. We got lots to
cover. Chris, welcome to no moreMondays.
Unknown (01:38):
Angie, thank you so much. Really excited to be here.
We
Angie (01:41):
had an entire episode in the green room before, before we
started. And so what we getinto, what we recover? I was
like, half of those things. Iwas like, Darn. I kind of wish,
I kind of wish this was liveright now. But we know we've
got, we've got lots to talkabout and lots to value, lots of
value for all of you out thereto really think about what your
(02:01):
leadership looks like in life,in actual traditional
leadership, and in teams, youknow, especially in this day and
age where technology is reallydisrupting a lot of things, and
a lot of, a lot of, a lot of theconnection that we want to have
as leaders. And so Chris, I'dlove for you to just fill
everybody in a little bit,because you've had a pretty
interesting career path in theFortune 100 Abbott. Abbott's on
(02:22):
the on the resume. AbbVie is onthe resume. And now moving into
founding and Luma, what sparkedthis shift from corporate life
to founders?
Unknown (02:32):
Founderness, you know, I've always had the bug to
create my own company, and Idon't there has been I've had
some really bad ideas in thepast that clearly they weren't
good enough for a company. Butyou know what? I started to
realize I had the opportunity tolead transformations in Abbott
(02:53):
AbbVie, and I started to see apattern. The pattern was the
ones that went really well.People weren't burnt out at the
end, and actually they usuallyexceeded their objectives. And
it was just really interestingto me, because I started to see
that trend. But then also,there's one specific event, I
(03:17):
had the opportunity to lead aturnaround for a call center,
and it was a patientaffordability call center. And
as you can imagine, those jobsare tough because nobody calls
in saying they love the price oftheir medicine. Nobody does. But
you know, quickly I realizedthat I couldn't, barely spell
(03:37):
call center, let alone, youknow, know what was going on,
but after two years, we let aremarkable turnaround, and yes,
we reduced the budget by a lot,our culture scores went through
the roof, and each of the groupswas performing really well. But
what stuck with me was not thebusiness results, but before I
(04:00):
moved on to another role, I satdown with a few peers and we
counted the number of peoplethat in those two years, we
helped achieve more than theythought was possible, and it was
almost 40 people. And I'll tellyou, like business results
(04:20):
change. They come and go, butthat impact you can have on
people that lasts for I stillhave people to this day. I mean,
this is seven years later. I'llsee them in a store or wherever,
and they're excited to see me,and I'm genuinely excited to see
(04:42):
them, and the feedback they'llshare, share stories that I
didn't know about, of thingsthat I did, and that's what's
the rewarding part, is theimpact that you have on people,
that it's just it's fantastic.
Angie (04:55):
And I think it's such an important thing to remember
about the word transformation.Done in the business sense,
because we hear all aboutorganizational change
management, organizationaldevelopment, transformation,
modernization, these are allbuzzwords we put into resumes or
we think about what's theprocess to the transformation
(05:17):
that the business seeks. But Ithink it's really important to
remember that transformation isactually more about people than
the process, because a processis worthless if people won't
adopt it and don't feel goodabout it, or don't feel seen by
what's developed.
Unknown (05:33):
Oh, 100% 100% and because if the people don't
trust leadership and reallyquestion the motives, you are
going to be severely limited.But if the leaders are
authentic, genuine andvulnerable, say, Hey, I don't
know, or you know what? I made amistake. I remember one time, it
(05:56):
was during our busy season. Iwas actually helping out and
taking calls, and I came out ofmy office and I'm like, oh, man,
that sucked. Empathy. It wasfunny, because, like, the people
within like, 1015, feet whoweren't on phone just all
(06:17):
started cracking up, and theywere laughing. But then what
happened? And I wasn't trying tobuild trust, but it spread. And
people are like, Oh, Chris istaking calls that the boss is
taking calls and but, yeah, Imean, if you can do that, and
you have that vulnerability, oh,people will go to work for you.
Angie (06:38):
It's also there. Trust is such an important word, and I
think it's probably the one of,if not the most important word
in a leadership environment. Andit isn't, it isn't always
focused on, which I think is adifferentiator right off the
bat, but I think it's reallyinteresting the kind of trust
and empathy that you create ifyou show you're willing to go do
(07:00):
the thing you're asking yourpeople to do. Yeah, that makes
me think of you. Know, for mostof you who listen regularly, you
know, we're big skiers. We livejust outside of Aspen, Colorado,
and the our CEO of aspen ski cojust retired last year. But up
until that point, he wasfamously known for, he would, he
would be at the chairlifthelping. He would be a liftie
(07:22):
for a day during the busyseason, at Christmas, and you'd
be like, Oh, hey, that was, thatwas, that was him, wasn't it? As
you'd get on the chair lift andgo up. And so it's just
interesting, he'll stand out ona 10 degree day and load people
up on a chair lift just as soonas he'll go meet with a board,
right? And it, it created areally interesting kind of
culture, and that, like, fullcircle moment, which kind of
(07:43):
brings me to this, this idea, orI think something you and I
agree upon is this, the idea oftraditional or, like, let's say
old school, autocraticleadership, strong leadership is
starting, starting to die andand even if it isn't dying, it's
hurting performance. So unpackthat one for us.
Unknown (07:59):
You know, it's interesting, because I'm sure
your viewers have seen this too,those old school command and
controls. I'm slamming my handdown. Why wasn't this done? You
know what? What that hap whathappens is you trigger the fight
or flight response in the peoplethat work right, and they're
(08:20):
either going to get aggressive,which is less likely to happen
because you're the boss. Youcontrol their salary, you
control their raises, so they'remore likely going into flight,
right? Yep, and so what's goingto happen is those people will
do just enough. They're going todo just enough. So if Angie is
the big, scary boss, they'regoing to do just enough to make
(08:42):
Angie happy, and they're goingto do just enough so Angie goes
away. And you see this all thetime. And then what happens is
these tough leaders thinksthey're getting great results,
but in fact, they're actuallyjust encouraging mediocrity.
Yeah.
Angie (08:57):
Oh, can we talk about the world meet? Word mean, sidebar,
Chris, I realized years ago mybig realization around I
realized years ago how much weaccept mediocrity in many
aspects of life and work. Today,I realized it when, almost 20
(09:18):
years ago, I decided to take therisk and move to Colorado, and I
had all these people that werelike, well, I want to move to
call Oh, my ski friends werelike, Oh, I'm jealous. You're
doing what I'm doing. I want tomove to Colorado. I'm like, I'm
nobody special. You could dothis too. They just chose to
stay small, be risk averse and,like, limit themselves. And I
think that's such an easy wordthat it's such an interesting
word you bring up because Idon't hear it very often, and
(09:38):
it's one of my thoughts on,like, how do we stop How do we
turn the tables on thatmediocrity story and from a
leadership perspective, startmoving more towards, like,
healthy and sustainableleadership in the way people
want today. What's your thoughton that?
Unknown (09:51):
Yeah, you know, it's funny, because if your focus is
just results, you're not goingto. Get the best results if you
focus in on say, hey, Angie andteam. I know we're trying to do
this, but what do you need toknock it out of the park? What
(10:12):
do you need to even just exceedbecause if the boss is asking
that question. One, it showsthey care. And two, now they're
saying, hey, Angie, I want tohelp. I want to help you achieve
better results. Because the onesthat just say, Did you meet it
(10:33):
or not? Did you hit the resultsor not? You're in essence,
creating a ceiling of this is asfar as people are going to go,
yeah. But what's cool is, if youfocus in on helping the people,
you now create a table, a tablefor them to stand on and go up
Angie (10:52):
with no ceiling, unlike what you had created in the flip
side,
Unknown (10:55):
no and, and I'll tell you, um, I've done this a few
times. We were focusing in onhelp on improving change
management, and because, youknow, think IT systems, new
projects, there's always changesthat happen, right? And if you
don't prepare for those changes,you're setting yourself up for
(11:17):
problems. So what I do is builda small team, and I'd say, hey,
look you. You folks understandthe team better than I do. We
need to improve our changes andhow we manage changes two weeks.
Come back to me with a plan ofhow you think we should
communicate what's coming. Getfeedback. Take it wherever you
(11:37):
want to take it. I will tell you19 times out of 20, they will
destroy any expectations I have,because they will come back with
plans, things I didn't eventhink of, and all I did was say,
Hey, I'm going to give youcontrol. I'm going to give you
the power. Here's theexpectations come back to me,
(12:01):
and you do that all the resultsyou can achieve. And if, because
if you think you're in, ifthey're genuine too, if they
know that you're going to givethem control, they know that
you're going to give them thepower, oh, it is a game changer.
It is such a game changer.
Angie (12:16):
You have people. We've gone from mediocre, mediocre.
I'm going to do just enough toget this guy off my back to the
I feel supported to be not onlyproductive, but potentially even
innovative. Imagine what kind ofideas come from that, and the
kind of retention that you getfrom a leadership, you know,
perspective and and we know allof that stuff. Hard lines, back
(12:39):
to business, bottom lines, it'sjust hard for people to see it,
because there's usually a stepor two in between the, you know,
just like straight up numbercrunching and. And I think, in a
nutshell, what I take from thatyour your last statement was
this idea of really prioritizinginspiration over what used to be
intimidation, 100% and, and, Iguess my question would be in
(13:01):
practice, like, what does thatrequire from a leader? How does
somebody start shifting theirtheir styles, to be intentional
around that?
Unknown (13:09):
You know, I honestly think what we need to do before
you even become a people leaderis when anyone comes in the door
level, set expectations on howyou partner and lead your peers?
Because what happens is you andI are peers, and I'm head down,
(13:29):
doing my work, you're head downdoing your work. What I don't
step back and say, Hey, Angie,you know, if we worked really
well together, we could do this.So you and I both get promoted
now. We're now people leaders.We're trying to figure out what
the heck a people leader does,because no one, typically in a
company, nobody tells you whatthey do.
Angie (13:48):
You got nope, and you have not been trained, and a
fraction of the No offense toanybody out there. But I am a
former engineer, so I get to saythis from my own experience as
the former recovering engineerwho loves people, mostly, most
people who promote intoleadership don't have those
natural skills, no. And there'snothing wrong with that, but we
don't fill that gap from acorporate or, you know, a higher
(14:11):
executive level, so they come inwithout the natural skills and
no clear foundation to operateon, even if they did have the
natural skills, yeah,
Unknown (14:19):
and if you start with that peer leadership, that will
give you an indication who willbe a good people leader, because
it's how do they work together.You know, do I come to you and
say, Hey, Angie, I've got aproblem. I need to work on this.
Or do I just say, Angie, I haveto do this thing. Are you going
to do this for me or not?Because then if you start with a
(14:43):
peer, then you get to people.That gives you an indication.
But it has to be clear, we needto do a better job of what are
the expectations for our peopleleaders. And then when people,
if they get promoted further,they typically don't lead their
peers. Well, they then. The thechallenge is, when have a senior
leader, you're more likely tohave a bigger ego. You're more
(15:05):
likely to to and look, I totallyget and I don't mean to to pick
on senior leaders too much, butI also know that senior leaders,
your time is more precious than,say, a people leader, because
you're being pulled in so manydifferent directions. You
compromise how you lead yourpeople, you compromise how you
work with your peers, and you'refocused more on your fiefdom and
(15:28):
keeping your fiefdom movingforward. But the reality fiefdom
Angie (15:32):
is such it brings up such a good visual, by the way,
Unknown (15:36):
love it. I don't know like you can yeah, there's all
kinds of frocks and all kinds ofstuff people are wearing
fabulous, but you know what Imean, like? And then what
happens is you have seniorleaders who don't know how to
play nice in the sandbox. Dayone, it should be, how do you
work with your peers? That's theexpectation,
Angie (15:56):
which, funny enough, should be the thing that we're
taught in the sandbox when we'rethree years old. But now that's
going to get into a parentingdiscussion, which I am not
qualified, however, veryopinionated about having.
Unknown (16:09):
You know, it's funny, you should say that. So we have
two kids, and I found theparallels between parenting and
leading is so similar. Yep, youhave to realize that you want
the first you have to askyourself a question, do you want
the best for the people you havethe opportunity to lead
translation?
Angie (16:28):
Do I want best for my children? Or am I going to take
the selfish route Exactly?
Unknown (16:33):
Exactly So, because there's people who say, I want
to get the most out of mypeople. I want to deliver these
results, versus someone whosays, hey, I want to help them
be their best. Yeah, those aretwo different questions. And
honestly, the one where you'rehelping them to be their best, I
would say majority of time,you're going to exceed the one
who's just trying to get the
Angie (16:54):
most out of them. Get the most out of them. We're going to
come back to that before we do.I want to challenge thinking out
there, sure. So there's somebodyout there who's going, this is,
this is, well, they're probablynot listening to this podcast.
Unfortunately, if they'rethinking this, let's just hope
and pray they do. Somebody outthere who's maybe in the
generations that's used toautocratic leadership, maybe
(17:16):
they want to start making achange, but they think, Okay,
this, this people first stuff isall fantastic, but I'm going to
sacrifice results. What wouldyou say to them? It?
Unknown (17:25):
Give it a try. Give it a try. Try it for a month,
where, if you lead a team offour people asking them what
they need and asking them whatthey want to do from a growth
and development perspective,
Angie (17:40):
yes, yes, I did not. I did not prime the pumps for
this. But this is like a soapbox. This is one of the 9000
hills I'm gonna die on, Chris,because, yes, tell us more about
that part.
Unknown (17:52):
I'll tell you what. I'm sure your listeners has had the
experiences if you work for aleader who's just telling you
what to do and telling you to dothis, get it done, versus if you
have a leader who's activelyinvolved, engaged in your growth
and development, what happensis, leader one, you do things
(18:13):
because you have to. Leader two,who's engaged in your growth and
development, you do thingsbecause you want to, and you
don't want to let them down thebat. For you, they're the ones
who are encouraging your growthand development. And if there's
such a different perspectivethere, but if you try for a
(18:33):
month, try to see what theyneed. And you know, Michael
Bungay Steiner, in the CoachingHabit, talks about the lazy
question, which is, if you ask adirect report, the book is right
there,
Angie (18:46):
if I even knew exactly where it was, what does that
tell you all? For those of youlistening audio only, I just
reached back and pulled this outof my shelf, almost without
looking, because I know exactlywhere it's located.
Unknown (18:56):
Yeah, Coaching Habit is a fabulous book, but what he
talks about the lazy questions,how can I help? What can I do?
Because no, no direct reports,going to want your help, because
it's there's going to be afeeling that they have failed.
But if you ask for help, itshows that you care, yes. So
it's funny, you ask for help,you ask them what they want to
(19:18):
do, and it's if there's anythingthat they need. The reality is,
and if you're being genuine andsincere in this, it doesn't take
that much effort. And Iguarantee you, you try that for
a month, you will be amazed athow the team turns around.
Angie (19:33):
Yeah, it's pretty incredible. What happens when
you ask instead of assume, youwill likely do less work asking,
because you've got the clearfoundation and clear
understanding, versus assumingthat the soapbox I stand on is
that everyone just wants to takemore responsibility, make more
money and get a higher title.There are infinite other ways
that someone can grow in theircareer and as a leader, sitting
(19:57):
down and showing that you a evenare. Aware of that and be care
enough to say to somebody, Hey,what motivates you or what are
your career goals, drasticallychanges the dynamic, because you
have seen them as a human. And Ichallenge all of you out there
to find a time when leading as ahuman ever backfired. Right?
(20:17):
When is human? When has humanfirst ever backfired.
Unknown (20:22):
And you raise an interesting point, and that is,
there is an assumption thatgrowth means I want to be
promoted Exactly.
Angie (20:32):
And that's exactly what is wrong, exactly up until, up
until now. And I would say it'sstill the prevailing there's
some, I think there's somecorporate awareness around the
fact that there are six or youcould. You could have somebody
that wants to go deeper.Technically, you could have
somebody that wants to mentorpeople but not lead them. You
could have somebody that wantsto get into thought leadership.
Right? There's all thesedifferent ways to grow corporate
(20:54):
America just thinks it's dollarsigns,
Unknown (20:56):
yes. So this is hilarious. I saw a case study at
Costco, they're talking abouttalent development. I forget the
gentleman's name, we'll call himDave. Dave was just knocking it
out of the park. And so they'retalking about talent and like,
oh, Dave should be promoted. Oh,Dave's awesome. He'd be a great
manager. We could have thiscareer trajectory. They go talk
(21:16):
to Dave, and Dave just wants torun the forklift. He doesn't
want to be a manager. Well, likeand I've personally seen people
where they want to enhance theirskills, but they don't want to
lead people. And that is okay.Exactly their growth is putting
(21:36):
more tools in their toolbox, notbecoming a leader or moving up
the ladder. And the reality,though, is you need both.
Angie (21:46):
Yes, you do. And that, to me, goes directly back to the
conversation about the traininggap. Yes, and we, you know, you,
oh, this person is marked ashigh potential. Clearly they're
going to go into the Leadershiptrack with, ever, without, ever,
the conversation happening onwhether they want it or not. Now
you force somebody into aposition that isn't their
natural disposition or skill setnor their desire. No wonder we
(22:07):
have gaps at that, especially atthe middle management level.
Correct? Is where I see it.
Unknown (22:13):
Yeah, because you put people into leadership roles
that is based on their priorexperience as an individual
Angie (22:18):
contributor. Yep. And then you go, hey, here you go,
let's slap on this peopleleadership thing on top of the
individual contributor roleyou're doing. Let's double your
work absolutely and make it acompletely different function
than anything you've ever done.Please note, former engineer
asked me how I know.
Unknown (22:34):
Well, I think we need to have an open and honest
discussion about talentassessment, because
historically, one of the thingsthat we're trying to do with our
tool that we're building is theability to have data around
everyone's leadership potentialbased on stakeholder feedback.
(22:55):
Because talent discussions arethey're putting HR in a tough
spot, because it's basically,well, Angie, what do you think
of your direct report? Oh, she'sgreat. She's wonderful. Well,
what data do you have behind it?Oh, no, no. I just feel that
she's wonderful. But imagineinstead, if you had data about
how your direct reports, all ofthem lead, peers lead their
(23:19):
direct reports, if it's multiplelevels down, and then you can
look at data and say, hmm, yeah,no, you know, Angie's really
quiet, but her scores arethrough the roof. Her peers love
her. Direct reports love her.She's something if we don't have
data, what's going to happen ispeople will lead up really well,
(23:39):
yep, they're going to look likethey're great, but you run the
risk of their peers don't likethem, and their direct reports
will be excited when they leave,
Angie (23:47):
and everybody out there is going, I've either worked for
or or had that person report tome, because those are the, those
are the people that getpromoted, right? The, you know,
I can, I can say this becauseI'm a loud mouth, but the loud
mouths who can't do anything,oftentimes get promoted, but
they're not necessarily theright position, right because
other the other skills arehidden in neutral. The that kind
(24:09):
of data keeping, or let's say,performance tracking, actually
neutralizes the personalityfactor in some ways, and can
help with you know, we don'twant to completely replace the
gut feeling or the humanconnection to it, but it can. It
adds a more objective componentto things.
Unknown (24:29):
Yes, absolutely. So, yeah, no, we're we're really
excited, because in our bookthat we published in May lead
without limits, we focus in onhow to inspire your peers, how
to inspire direct reports, howto inspire an organization. And
then behind that, we've built, Iwouldn't say concise but
manageable, 360s and this, ourbook, is based on surveying and
(24:54):
interviewing over 400 people.And then we also compared our
results to the results. Resultsof prominent literature to kind
of pressure test it. But whereI'm going is, in our tool that
we're currently building, you gothrough 20 statements that you
score. It takes about five toseven minutes. We figure most
people can do that, but then youwould get access to we call it
(25:18):
an AI micro coach, where it'svery specific actions, where the
AI can help you to learncourses. And then we've also,
our partner has already built AIgenerated development planning,
where you would say, hey, maybeI'm in commercial sales today,
(25:40):
but I'm really passionate aboutmarketing in the future, it
would show you, then, hey, youshould do this. Then you should
learn this. You should learnthis, you should learn this. And
there's courses that will have,and it's, it's really
interesting, and we're reallyexcited about what's coming.
Because I we think that thiscould be, it's not going to
(26:01):
replace coaches. That's notwhere I'm going. It's an
Angie (26:03):
enablement tool, exactly in all facets, HR, coaching, all
those and this is, this iswhere, you know, the whole
intersection of AI and humanismis very, very much on my mind
right now, because I'm about togo to an AI conference and talk
about how to be a human, as wechatted about before we came on
the air. But this is a greatexample of where the two, the
two intersect in a in a reallyinteresting way that AI can
(26:27):
enhance, or maybe even, like,point out some elements of a
development or a performanceplan that would have, would
have, maybe not come to lightotherwise, and then the humans
can decide on what to do withit.
Unknown (26:38):
And you know, why not? If you could have ai do small,
digestible coaching, and youhave a history of that, and then
say they sign up with a coach, alive coach, and then the human
coach gets visibility to all ofthat and says, Hey, I see that
you've been working on this.Let's progress that further.
Let's talk about that. I thinkin tandem, that could be
(27:00):
powerful, but it's, you know,it's still a work in progress,
but we're really excited aboutthe potential that this has and
and we're trying to make this asuser friendly as possible, and
also exploring that. You know,we start with leadership, but
maybe we take this to othertopics later, based on the model
that we built,
Angie (27:21):
gotta love, as a business owner, we love scalable things,
but at the bottom, but the theundercurrent, or let's say, the
common thread, through all ofthis, is it's it's still rooted
in the what you love to do,which is help, is really help
people realize what's possible,right? This is a tool that can
enable them to see a pathway tosomething they may desire and
(27:42):
think isn't possible. And so Ipromised a minute ago, or a few
minutes ago, that we would comeback to you really feeling like
helping others achieve more thanthey thought possible is really
what matters to you most. Andthese are all different
mechanisms for doing that. Andso I just want, I want to hear a
little bit more about thatimpact, and maybe a story that
(28:04):
you've that you, that you'veseen, you know, in addition to
the to the people in the grocerystore, I would love to just hear
a little bit more about
Unknown (28:12):
that, yeah, in terms of the impact you can have and with
how You can really help people,I'll tell you what. There was a
lady. This was the call center.Again, she would call insurance
companies. And at the time, sheand I did a one on one, and this
(28:37):
was probably 2017 and she said,Chris, I'm really interested in
project management and and I hadrun a project management office
before and done some programmanagement, I said, Okay, this
is what you should do. Myrecommendation is, go get your
PMP, because PMPs are goodchevrons on your shoulder, so
they're the things. And thenthere's so many IT projects, go
(28:59):
ahead and get involved in ITprojects. Here's the funny
thing, I don't remember havingthis conversation. I don't
remember it, but in 2022 I raninto her again. So this is five
years later, and she was now aproject manager for a larger IT
system. And I thought, Oh,great. You know, she's working
(29:23):
on this, and we're talking, andshe said, Chris, I followed your
advice. It said to myself, I'mlike, I'm like, wow, you told me
to get my PMP, and I did. Youtold me to get involved in IT
projects, and I did. And I saidthat gave me the runway to now
be program manager on an largeIT system. And she says, I love
(29:46):
what I'm doing. And I thought, Idon't remember the conversation
in 2017 but I will never forgetthe conversation in 2022
yeah, there it is. Because.
That's, that's the impact youcan have. And like my, the hair
on the back of my neck is stillstanding up right now, and this
was three years ago that Italked to her, but I know that
(30:10):
she's still doing projectmanagement. And some, sometimes
people just need that spark,that spark to Hey, you can
believe in yourself, or you candream higher, yeah, and if you
can give that spark, you'regoing to have those
conversations like I had time'sover, and it is, I'll tell you
(30:35):
what. We all receive awards inour career, but if I asked you,
Angie, like an award you got 10years ago. Can you tell me what
you spent the money on?
Angie (30:44):
I don't think I got an award 10 years ago. So no, so,
but no, I can't.
Unknown (30:50):
But if I asked you, can you name three people that
you've helped in their career?You could probably name three
people right
Angie (30:59):
now. Yeah, one of them introduced us. There you go. Hi
Julie. I was gonna say hi to herat some point, but, right,
that's the thing is. And thisgoes, you know, there's a,
there's a Maya Angelou quotethat I think comes into play
here, and it's, it's kind of oneof my favorite slides in most of
my slide decks, which is, peoplewill forget what you do, people
(31:22):
will forget what you say, butthey will never forget how you
made them feel. And to me, thatis really what's at the core of
this. Is you made her feelempowered to have possibilities,
to have choice, and you maybeeven saw something in her that
she didn't see in herself. Andthat is the ultimate gift we can
give to another human being,
Unknown (31:40):
if, if, if your listeners haven't already, I'm a
huge fan of the book The Art ofhappiness, by the Dalai Lama.
And in the art of happiness, hetalks about kind of superficial
happiness. Say you have asandwich for lunch, that is
fantastic. Does that sandwichstill make you happy two days
later?
Angie (32:01):
No, really, there's some meals that still make me happy
years later, but it is the itisn't. It is the anomaly, that's
for sure. It's the anomaly thatmade me happy in a moment,
Unknown (32:10):
exactly. But then, if you think about helping others,
if you focus on others, thatcontentment and fulfillment will
will continue with you foryears. And so happiness is not
about having that great meal orwhatever you can think of short
term. It's the focusing in onothers. And you know, yeah,
(32:34):
people might say, Oh, this is abunch of fluff. It actually
elevates yourself and the peopleyou work with? Yes. Yes, it
does. And if you can take thatperspective, and I would argue,
combine it with humility, andanother thing the Dalai Lama
says is he's just one of the 8billion people, and that's why
(32:54):
he's not arrogant. If you're ina company of 500 people, you are
paid not for your importance.You're paid for your
responsibilities. So if you're aleader, and you see yourself as
just one of those 500 people,and if you're looking out for
others, that is a combination asa leader that will pay dividends
(33:19):
in space.
Angie (33:21):
Deep thoughts, Chris and Angie, however, I'm not gonna go
get it, but the book is upthere. I think it's right around
there somewhere, the Dalai Lama,art of happiness. And you know
how I'll, how I'll phrase that,and this is kind of my
interpretation of it. Is likehappiness to me, is an ex is an
experience, yeah. Whereaslasting happiness is where we
(33:42):
start to really dip into joy.And I think that living a joyful
life is something that we shouldall be aspiring to. It all looks
different to us. And if we cansupport each other in uh,
enabling that joy, isn't that anincredible thing to say that you
you did,
Unknown (33:58):
and maybe the quick question is, on a Monday
morning. Would you rather get uplooking to be excited about work
or dreading that you have to goto work?
Angie (34:08):
Well, this is a show called No More Mondays. I know
my answer, and I hope all of youdo that's a perfect way to wrap
up a pretty amazingconversation. So I want you to
go ahead and tell everybody howthey continue to follow along
with you. And the get the bookfollow along into this the you
know, all of these amazing toolsthat you're going to roll out.
How do we stay in touch withyou?
Unknown (34:29):
So and Luma group.com is our website. We also have on
demand courses on there, whereit's a hybrid between exercises,
you do online sessions, and youalways have coaching with us at
the end, so there's always alive piece. The tool that we're
building right now is our AItool. We're going to do beta
testing in October, I would sayearly 26 q1 26 is when we'd have
(34:54):
a broader launch. You can checkme out on LinkedIn, also in Luma
group. Here is on LinkedIn aswell. And then I've got a sub
stack and a YouTube page aswell.
Angie (35:05):
Oh, I'm into sub stack. We're going to connect with you
here, with you there, andobviously all of you out there
watching here in LinkedIn land,connect with with Chris, for
sure. He and I like to engageand clearly share perspectives
on things and and I am excitedto see where all of the humans
still matter work that you arealso doing. Yeah, goes. It's
(35:26):
been excellent conversation.Chris Sprague, thank you so
Unknown (35:28):
much. Yeah, Angie, thank you so much for having me.
Really enjoyed it. I want all ofyou out
Angie (35:32):
there to remember that real leadership isn't about
control. It's about courage andconnection and community. How
many hard C's can we throw atthat baby? Healthy, sustainable
leadership is not selfish, it isselfless. And we get that
backwards a lot in societytoday. If you can help people be
anti mediocre, you will be thememorable person in their life,
(35:52):
and you never know whatpossibility that will bring. And
Chris, this was a greatconversation to remind people of
that. So all of you out there,whether you're leading a team or
just trying to lead yourselfthrough life. Take a good look
at where you're bringing peoplealong with you or your own
person along with you, and behonest about where you can
improve. And if Chris and I canhelp or you just want to share,
(36:13):
we welcome messages. Dropcomments here. Leave us a note.
Send us a LinkedIn message. Wewant to hear. What's working for
you and what kind of leadershipyou want to see more in the
world as we go out and do thework we're doing once again.
Chris Sprague, thank you so muchfor being here and joining the
no more Mondays movement.
Unknown (36:28):
Yeah, thanks a lot, Angie. Really appreciate having
me. Thank
Angie (36:31):
you all for joining us. I am Angie Callen, and this has
been another amazing becausethey're all amazing episode of
no more Mondays. Big thanks toChris for showing us what's
possible when leadership startswith people. And if all of you
need a little inspiration foryour person to get through the
middle of the week, don't forgetto pick up our new mini episode
mid week momentum it drops everyWednesday afternoon, right in
(36:52):
time to help you get over thehump. In the meantime, I will
catch you next week on Mondaymorning for another edition of
no more Mondays podcast. You.
Callen, Good Monday morning, everybody. I am Angie
Callen, host of no more Mondays.Welcome to the show where we
believe you can have a thrivinglife, career and business on
your terms, and I bring youguests who prove it. This
episode is brought to you by themodern coach, my platform for
helping entrepreneurs andexecutives create those amazing
lives built around our valuesand our humanism. Check out more
(00:34):
at the modern coach.co where youcan explore your core values and
lean into what is most importantto you now, let's get on with
the show. Today's guest is oneof those people who just makes
you believe that betterLeadership isn't possible but
necessary, especially in thistime and place in the world.
Chris Sprague is the CEO ofIllumina Leadership Group, which
(00:56):
is the manifestation of years ofwork leading transformation
inside of fortune, 100 companieswhere his experience showed him
that it wasn't just the resultsthat were achieved that
mattered. It wasn't just thebusiness bottom line that
mattered. It was the people thathe helped realize and reach new
possibilities that left theirmark on him. That belief that we
(01:16):
can achieve extraordinaryresults in a healthy and
sustainable way is driving hiswork now, and it's the
foundation of and Luma, from whyforceful leadership is outdated
to why to what actually drivesperformance and how to modernize
leadership development for thenext generation. We got lots to
cover. Chris, welcome to no moreMondays.
Unknown (01:38):
Angie, thank you so much. Really excited to be here.
We
Angie (01:41):
had an entire episode in the green room before, before we
started. And so what we getinto, what we recover? I was
like, half of those things. Iwas like, Darn. I kind of wish,
I kind of wish this was liveright now. But we know we've
got, we've got lots to talkabout and lots to value, lots of
value for all of you out thereto really think about what your
(02:01):
leadership looks like in life,in actual traditional
leadership, and in teams, youknow, especially in this day and
age where technology is reallydisrupting a lot of things, and
a lot of, a lot of, a lot of theconnection that we want to have
as leaders. And so Chris, I'dlove for you to just fill
everybody in a little bit,because you've had a pretty
interesting career path in theFortune 100 Abbott. Abbott's on
(02:22):
the on the resume. AbbVie is onthe resume. And now moving into
founding and Luma, what sparkedthis shift from corporate life
to founders?
Unknown (02:32):
Founderness, you know, I've always had the bug to
create my own company, and Idon't there has been I've had
some really bad ideas in thepast that clearly they weren't
good enough for a company. Butyou know what? I started to
realize I had the opportunity tolead transformations in Abbott
(02:53):
AbbVie, and I started to see apattern. The pattern was the
ones that went really well.People weren't burnt out at the
end, and actually they usuallyexceeded their objectives. And
it was just really interestingto me, because I started to see
that trend. But then also,there's one specific event, I
(03:17):
had the opportunity to lead aturnaround for a call center,
and it was a patientaffordability call center. And
as you can imagine, those jobsare tough because nobody calls
in saying they love the price oftheir medicine. Nobody does. But
you know, quickly I realizedthat I couldn't, barely spell
(03:37):
call center, let alone, youknow, know what was going on,
but after two years, we let aremarkable turnaround, and yes,
we reduced the budget by a lot,our culture scores went through
the roof, and each of the groupswas performing really well. But
what stuck with me was not thebusiness results, but before I
(04:00):
moved on to another role, I satdown with a few peers and we
counted the number of peoplethat in those two years, we
helped achieve more than theythought was possible, and it was
almost 40 people. And I'll tellyou, like business results
(04:20):
change. They come and go, butthat impact you can have on
people that lasts for I stillhave people to this day. I mean,
this is seven years later. I'llsee them in a store or wherever,
and they're excited to see me,and I'm genuinely excited to see
(04:42):
them, and the feedback they'llshare, share stories that I
didn't know about, of thingsthat I did, and that's what's
the rewarding part, is theimpact that you have on people,
that it's just it's fantastic.
Angie (04:55):
And I think it's such an important thing to remember
about the word transformation.Done in the business sense,
because we hear all aboutorganizational change
management, organizationaldevelopment, transformation,
modernization, these are allbuzzwords we put into resumes or
we think about what's theprocess to the transformation
(05:17):
that the business seeks. But Ithink it's really important to
remember that transformation isactually more about people than
the process, because a processis worthless if people won't
adopt it and don't feel goodabout it, or don't feel seen by
what's developed.
Unknown (05:33):
Oh, 100% 100% and because if the people don't
trust leadership and reallyquestion the motives, you are
going to be severely limited.But if the leaders are
authentic, genuine andvulnerable, say, Hey, I don't
know, or you know what? I made amistake. I remember one time, it
(05:56):
was during our busy season. Iwas actually helping out and
taking calls, and I came out ofmy office and I'm like, oh, man,
that sucked. Empathy. It wasfunny, because, like, the people
within like, 1015, feet whoweren't on phone just all
(06:17):
started cracking up, and theywere laughing. But then what
happened? And I wasn't trying tobuild trust, but it spread. And
people are like, Oh, Chris istaking calls that the boss is
taking calls and but, yeah, Imean, if you can do that, and
you have that vulnerability, oh,people will go to work for you.
Angie (06:38):
It's also there. Trust is such an important word, and I
think it's probably the one of,if not the most important word
in a leadership environment. Andit isn't, it isn't always
focused on, which I think is adifferentiator right off the
bat, but I think it's reallyinteresting the kind of trust
and empathy that you create ifyou show you're willing to go do
(07:00):
the thing you're asking yourpeople to do. Yeah, that makes
me think of you. Know, for mostof you who listen regularly, you
know, we're big skiers. We livejust outside of Aspen, Colorado,
and the our CEO of aspen ski cojust retired last year. But up
until that point, he wasfamously known for, he would, he
would be at the chairlifthelping. He would be a liftie
(07:22):
for a day during the busyseason, at Christmas, and you'd
be like, Oh, hey, that was, thatwas, that was him, wasn't it? As
you'd get on the chair lift andgo up. And so it's just
interesting, he'll stand out ona 10 degree day and load people
up on a chair lift just as soonas he'll go meet with a board,
right? And it, it created areally interesting kind of
culture, and that, like, fullcircle moment, which kind of
(07:43):
brings me to this, this idea, orI think something you and I
agree upon is this, the idea oftraditional or, like, let's say
old school, autocraticleadership, strong leadership is
starting, starting to die andand even if it isn't dying, it's
hurting performance. So unpackthat one for us.
Unknown (07:59):
You know, it's interesting, because I'm sure
your viewers have seen this too,those old school command and
controls. I'm slamming my handdown. Why wasn't this done? You
know what? What that hap whathappens is you trigger the fight
or flight response in the peoplethat work right, and they're
(08:20):
either going to get aggressive,which is less likely to happen
because you're the boss. Youcontrol their salary, you
control their raises, so they'remore likely going into flight,
right? Yep, and so what's goingto happen is those people will
do just enough. They're going todo just enough. So if Angie is
the big, scary boss, they'regoing to do just enough to make
(08:42):
Angie happy, and they're goingto do just enough so Angie goes
away. And you see this all thetime. And then what happens is
these tough leaders thinksthey're getting great results,
but in fact, they're actuallyjust encouraging mediocrity.
Yeah.
Angie (08:57):
Oh, can we talk about the world meet? Word mean, sidebar,
Chris, I realized years ago mybig realization around I
realized years ago how much weaccept mediocrity in many
aspects of life and work. Today,I realized it when, almost 20
(09:18):
years ago, I decided to take therisk and move to Colorado, and I
had all these people that werelike, well, I want to move to
call Oh, my ski friends werelike, Oh, I'm jealous. You're
doing what I'm doing. I want tomove to Colorado. I'm like, I'm
nobody special. You could dothis too. They just chose to
stay small, be risk averse and,like, limit themselves. And I
think that's such an easy wordthat it's such an interesting
word you bring up because Idon't hear it very often, and
(09:38):
it's one of my thoughts on,like, how do we stop How do we
turn the tables on thatmediocrity story and from a
leadership perspective, startmoving more towards, like,
healthy and sustainableleadership in the way people
want today. What's your thoughton that?
Unknown (09:51):
Yeah, you know, it's funny, because if your focus is
just results, you're not goingto. Get the best results if you
focus in on say, hey, Angie andteam. I know we're trying to do
this, but what do you need toknock it out of the park? What
(10:12):
do you need to even just exceedbecause if the boss is asking
that question. One, it showsthey care. And two, now they're
saying, hey, Angie, I want tohelp. I want to help you achieve
better results. Because the onesthat just say, Did you meet it
(10:33):
or not? Did you hit the resultsor not? You're in essence,
creating a ceiling of this is asfar as people are going to go,
yeah. But what's cool is, if youfocus in on helping the people,
you now create a table, a tablefor them to stand on and go up
Angie (10:52):
with no ceiling, unlike what you had created in the flip
side,
Unknown (10:55):
no and, and I'll tell you, um, I've done this a few
times. We were focusing in onhelp on improving change
management, and because, youknow, think IT systems, new
projects, there's always changesthat happen, right? And if you
don't prepare for those changes,you're setting yourself up for
(11:17):
problems. So what I do is builda small team, and I'd say, hey,
look you. You folks understandthe team better than I do. We
need to improve our changes andhow we manage changes two weeks.
Come back to me with a plan ofhow you think we should
communicate what's coming. Getfeedback. Take it wherever you
(11:37):
want to take it. I will tell you19 times out of 20, they will
destroy any expectations I have,because they will come back with
plans, things I didn't eventhink of, and all I did was say,
Hey, I'm going to give youcontrol. I'm going to give you
the power. Here's theexpectations come back to me,
(12:01):
and you do that all the resultsyou can achieve. And if, because
if you think you're in, ifthey're genuine too, if they
know that you're going to givethem control, they know that
you're going to give them thepower, oh, it is a game changer.
It is such a game changer.
Angie (12:16):
You have people. We've gone from mediocre, mediocre.
I'm going to do just enough toget this guy off my back to the
I feel supported to be not onlyproductive, but potentially even
innovative. Imagine what kind ofideas come from that, and the
kind of retention that you getfrom a leadership, you know,
perspective and and we know allof that stuff. Hard lines, back
(12:39):
to business, bottom lines, it'sjust hard for people to see it,
because there's usually a stepor two in between the, you know,
just like straight up numbercrunching and. And I think, in a
nutshell, what I take from thatyour your last statement was
this idea of really prioritizinginspiration over what used to be
intimidation, 100% and, and, Iguess my question would be in
(13:01):
practice, like, what does thatrequire from a leader? How does
somebody start shifting theirtheir styles, to be intentional
around that?
Unknown (13:09):
You know, I honestly think what we need to do before
you even become a people leaderis when anyone comes in the door
level, set expectations on howyou partner and lead your peers?
Because what happens is you andI are peers, and I'm head down,
(13:29):
doing my work, you're head downdoing your work. What I don't
step back and say, Hey, Angie,you know, if we worked really
well together, we could do this.So you and I both get promoted
now. We're now people leaders.We're trying to figure out what
the heck a people leader does,because no one, typically in a
company, nobody tells you whatthey do.
Angie (13:48):
You got nope, and you have not been trained, and a
fraction of the No offense toanybody out there. But I am a
former engineer, so I get to saythis from my own experience as
the former recovering engineerwho loves people, mostly, most
people who promote intoleadership don't have those
natural skills, no. And there'snothing wrong with that, but we
don't fill that gap from acorporate or, you know, a higher
(14:11):
executive level, so they come inwithout the natural skills and
no clear foundation to operateon, even if they did have the
natural skills, yeah,
Unknown (14:19):
and if you start with that peer leadership, that will
give you an indication who willbe a good people leader, because
it's how do they work together.You know, do I come to you and
say, Hey, Angie, I've got aproblem. I need to work on this.
Or do I just say, Angie, I haveto do this thing. Are you going
to do this for me or not?Because then if you start with a
(14:43):
peer, then you get to people.That gives you an indication.
But it has to be clear, we needto do a better job of what are
the expectations for our peopleleaders. And then when people,
if they get promoted further,they typically don't lead their
peers. Well, they then. The thechallenge is, when have a senior
leader, you're more likely tohave a bigger ego. You're more
(15:05):
likely to to and look, I totallyget and I don't mean to to pick
on senior leaders too much, butI also know that senior leaders,
your time is more precious than,say, a people leader, because
you're being pulled in so manydifferent directions. You
compromise how you lead yourpeople, you compromise how you
work with your peers, and you'refocused more on your fiefdom and
(15:28):
keeping your fiefdom movingforward. But the reality fiefdom
Angie (15:32):
is such it brings up such a good visual, by the way,
Unknown (15:36):
love it. I don't know like you can yeah, there's all
kinds of frocks and all kinds ofstuff people are wearing
fabulous, but you know what Imean, like? And then what
happens is you have seniorleaders who don't know how to
play nice in the sandbox. Dayone, it should be, how do you
work with your peers? That's theexpectation,
Angie (15:56):
which, funny enough, should be the thing that we're
taught in the sandbox when we'rethree years old. But now that's
going to get into a parentingdiscussion, which I am not
qualified, however, veryopinionated about having.
Unknown (16:09):
You know, it's funny, you should say that. So we have
two kids, and I found theparallels between parenting and
leading is so similar. Yep, youhave to realize that you want
the first you have to askyourself a question, do you want
the best for the people you havethe opportunity to lead
translation?
Angie (16:28):
Do I want best for my children? Or am I going to take
the selfish route Exactly?
Unknown (16:33):
Exactly So, because there's people who say, I want
to get the most out of mypeople. I want to deliver these
results, versus someone whosays, hey, I want to help them
be their best. Yeah, those aretwo different questions. And
honestly, the one where you'rehelping them to be their best, I
would say majority of time,you're going to exceed the one
who's just trying to get the
Angie (16:54):
most out of them. Get the most out of them. We're going to
come back to that before we do.I want to challenge thinking out
there, sure. So there's somebodyout there who's going, this is,
this is, well, they're probablynot listening to this podcast.
Unfortunately, if they'rethinking this, let's just hope
and pray they do. Somebody outthere who's maybe in the
generations that's used toautocratic leadership, maybe
(17:16):
they want to start making achange, but they think, Okay,
this, this people first stuff isall fantastic, but I'm going to
sacrifice results. What wouldyou say to them? It?
Unknown (17:25):
Give it a try. Give it a try. Try it for a month,
where, if you lead a team offour people asking them what
they need and asking them whatthey want to do from a growth
and development perspective,
Angie (17:40):
yes, yes, I did not. I did not prime the pumps for
this. But this is like a soapbox. This is one of the 9000
hills I'm gonna die on, Chris,because, yes, tell us more about
that part.
Unknown (17:52):
I'll tell you what. I'm sure your listeners has had the
experiences if you work for aleader who's just telling you
what to do and telling you to dothis, get it done, versus if you
have a leader who's activelyinvolved, engaged in your growth
and development, what happensis, leader one, you do things
(18:13):
because you have to. Leader two,who's engaged in your growth and
development, you do thingsbecause you want to, and you
don't want to let them down thebat. For you, they're the ones
who are encouraging your growthand development. And if there's
such a different perspectivethere, but if you try for a
(18:33):
month, try to see what theyneed. And you know, Michael
Bungay Steiner, in the CoachingHabit, talks about the lazy
question, which is, if you ask adirect report, the book is right
there,
Angie (18:46):
if I even knew exactly where it was, what does that
tell you all? For those of youlistening audio only, I just
reached back and pulled this outof my shelf, almost without
looking, because I know exactlywhere it's located.
Unknown (18:56):
Yeah, Coaching Habit is a fabulous book, but what he
talks about the lazy questions,how can I help? What can I do?
Because no, no direct reports,going to want your help, because
it's there's going to be afeeling that they have failed.
But if you ask for help, itshows that you care, yes. So
it's funny, you ask for help,you ask them what they want to
(19:18):
do, and it's if there's anythingthat they need. The reality is,
and if you're being genuine andsincere in this, it doesn't take
that much effort. And Iguarantee you, you try that for
a month, you will be amazed athow the team turns around.
Angie (19:33):
Yeah, it's pretty incredible. What happens when
you ask instead of assume, youwill likely do less work asking,
because you've got the clearfoundation and clear
understanding, versus assumingthat the soapbox I stand on is
that everyone just wants to takemore responsibility, make more
money and get a higher title.There are infinite other ways
that someone can grow in theircareer and as a leader, sitting
(19:57):
down and showing that you a evenare. Aware of that and be care
enough to say to somebody, Hey,what motivates you or what are
your career goals, drasticallychanges the dynamic, because you
have seen them as a human. And Ichallenge all of you out there
to find a time when leading as ahuman ever backfired. Right?
(20:17):
When is human? When has humanfirst ever backfired.
Unknown (20:22):
And you raise an interesting point, and that is,
there is an assumption thatgrowth means I want to be
promoted Exactly.
Angie (20:32):
And that's exactly what is wrong, exactly up until, up
until now. And I would say it'sstill the prevailing there's
some, I think there's somecorporate awareness around the
fact that there are six or youcould. You could have somebody
that wants to go deeper.Technically, you could have
somebody that wants to mentorpeople but not lead them. You
could have somebody that wantsto get into thought leadership.
Right? There's all thesedifferent ways to grow corporate
(20:54):
America just thinks it's dollarsigns,
Unknown (20:56):
yes. So this is hilarious. I saw a case study at
Costco, they're talking abouttalent development. I forget the
gentleman's name, we'll call himDave. Dave was just knocking it
out of the park. And so they'retalking about talent and like,
oh, Dave should be promoted. Oh,Dave's awesome. He'd be a great
manager. We could have thiscareer trajectory. They go talk
(21:16):
to Dave, and Dave just wants torun the forklift. He doesn't
want to be a manager. Well, likeand I've personally seen people
where they want to enhance theirskills, but they don't want to
lead people. And that is okay.Exactly their growth is putting
(21:36):
more tools in their toolbox, notbecoming a leader or moving up
the ladder. And the reality,though, is you need both.
Angie (21:46):
Yes, you do. And that, to me, goes directly back to the
conversation about the traininggap. Yes, and we, you know, you,
oh, this person is marked ashigh potential. Clearly they're
going to go into the Leadershiptrack with, ever, without, ever,
the conversation happening onwhether they want it or not. Now
you force somebody into aposition that isn't their
natural disposition or skill setnor their desire. No wonder we
(22:07):
have gaps at that, especially atthe middle management level.
Correct? Is where I see it.
Unknown (22:13):
Yeah, because you put people into leadership roles
that is based on their priorexperience as an individual
Angie (22:18):
contributor. Yep. And then you go, hey, here you go,
let's slap on this peopleleadership thing on top of the
individual contributor roleyou're doing. Let's double your
work absolutely and make it acompletely different function
than anything you've ever done.Please note, former engineer
asked me how I know.
Unknown (22:34):
Well, I think we need to have an open and honest
discussion about talentassessment, because
historically, one of the thingsthat we're trying to do with our
tool that we're building is theability to have data around
everyone's leadership potentialbased on stakeholder feedback.
(22:55):
Because talent discussions arethey're putting HR in a tough
spot, because it's basically,well, Angie, what do you think
of your direct report? Oh, she'sgreat. She's wonderful. Well,
what data do you have behind it?Oh, no, no. I just feel that
she's wonderful. But imagineinstead, if you had data about
how your direct reports, all ofthem lead, peers lead their
(23:19):
direct reports, if it's multiplelevels down, and then you can
look at data and say, hmm, yeah,no, you know, Angie's really
quiet, but her scores arethrough the roof. Her peers love
her. Direct reports love her.She's something if we don't have
data, what's going to happen ispeople will lead up really well,
(23:39):
yep, they're going to look likethey're great, but you run the
risk of their peers don't likethem, and their direct reports
will be excited when they leave,
Angie (23:47):
and everybody out there is going, I've either worked for
or or had that person report tome, because those are the, those
are the people that getpromoted, right? The, you know,
I can, I can say this becauseI'm a loud mouth, but the loud
mouths who can't do anything,oftentimes get promoted, but
they're not necessarily theright position, right because
other the other skills arehidden in neutral. The that kind
(24:09):
of data keeping, or let's say,performance tracking, actually
neutralizes the personalityfactor in some ways, and can
help with you know, we don'twant to completely replace the
gut feeling or the humanconnection to it, but it can. It
adds a more objective componentto things.
Unknown (24:29):
Yes, absolutely. So, yeah, no, we're we're really
excited, because in our bookthat we published in May lead
without limits, we focus in onhow to inspire your peers, how
to inspire direct reports, howto inspire an organization. And
then behind that, we've built, Iwouldn't say concise but
manageable, 360s and this, ourbook, is based on surveying and
(24:54):
interviewing over 400 people.And then we also compared our
results to the results. Resultsof prominent literature to kind
of pressure test it. But whereI'm going is, in our tool that
we're currently building, you gothrough 20 statements that you
score. It takes about five toseven minutes. We figure most
people can do that, but then youwould get access to we call it
(25:18):
an AI micro coach, where it'svery specific actions, where the
AI can help you to learncourses. And then we've also,
our partner has already built AIgenerated development planning,
where you would say, hey, maybeI'm in commercial sales today,
(25:40):
but I'm really passionate aboutmarketing in the future, it
would show you, then, hey, youshould do this. Then you should
learn this. You should learnthis, you should learn this. And
there's courses that will have,and it's, it's really
interesting, and we're reallyexcited about what's coming.
Because I we think that thiscould be, it's not going to
(26:01):
replace coaches. That's notwhere I'm going. It's an
Angie (26:03):
enablement tool, exactly in all facets, HR, coaching, all
those and this is, this iswhere, you know, the whole
intersection of AI and humanismis very, very much on my mind
right now, because I'm about togo to an AI conference and talk
about how to be a human, as wechatted about before we came on
the air. But this is a greatexample of where the two, the
two intersect in a in a reallyinteresting way that AI can
(26:27):
enhance, or maybe even, like,point out some elements of a
development or a performanceplan that would have, would
have, maybe not come to lightotherwise, and then the humans
can decide on what to do withit.
Unknown (26:38):
And you know, why not? If you could have ai do small,
digestible coaching, and youhave a history of that, and then
say they sign up with a coach, alive coach, and then the human
coach gets visibility to all ofthat and says, Hey, I see that
you've been working on this.Let's progress that further.
Let's talk about that. I thinkin tandem, that could be
(27:00):
powerful, but it's, you know,it's still a work in progress,
but we're really excited aboutthe potential that this has and
and we're trying to make this asuser friendly as possible, and
also exploring that. You know,we start with leadership, but
maybe we take this to othertopics later, based on the model
that we built,
Angie (27:21):
gotta love, as a business owner, we love scalable things,
but at the bottom, but the theundercurrent, or let's say, the
common thread, through all ofthis, is it's it's still rooted
in the what you love to do,which is help, is really help
people realize what's possible,right? This is a tool that can
enable them to see a pathway tosomething they may desire and
(27:42):
think isn't possible. And so Ipromised a minute ago, or a few
minutes ago, that we would comeback to you really feeling like
helping others achieve more thanthey thought possible is really
what matters to you most. Andthese are all different
mechanisms for doing that. Andso I just want, I want to hear a
little bit more about thatimpact, and maybe a story that
(28:04):
you've that you, that you'veseen, you know, in addition to
the to the people in the grocerystore, I would love to just hear
a little bit more about
Unknown (28:12):
that, yeah, in terms of the impact you can have and with
how You can really help people,I'll tell you what. There was a
lady. This was the call center.Again, she would call insurance
companies. And at the time, sheand I did a one on one, and this
(28:37):
was probably 2017 and she said,Chris, I'm really interested in
project management and and I hadrun a project management office
before and done some programmanagement, I said, Okay, this
is what you should do. Myrecommendation is, go get your
PMP, because PMPs are goodchevrons on your shoulder, so
they're the things. And thenthere's so many IT projects, go
(28:59):
ahead and get involved in ITprojects. Here's the funny
thing, I don't remember havingthis conversation. I don't
remember it, but in 2022 I raninto her again. So this is five
years later, and she was now aproject manager for a larger IT
system. And I thought, Oh,great. You know, she's working
(29:23):
on this, and we're talking, andshe said, Chris, I followed your
advice. It said to myself, I'mlike, I'm like, wow, you told me
to get my PMP, and I did. Youtold me to get involved in IT
projects, and I did. And I saidthat gave me the runway to now
be program manager on an largeIT system. And she says, I love
(29:46):
what I'm doing. And I thought, Idon't remember the conversation
in 2017 but I will never forgetthe conversation in 2022
yeah, there it is. Because.
That's, that's the impact youcan have. And like my, the hair
on the back of my neck is stillstanding up right now, and this
was three years ago that Italked to her, but I know that
(30:10):
she's still doing projectmanagement. And some, sometimes
people just need that spark,that spark to Hey, you can
believe in yourself, or you candream higher, yeah, and if you
can give that spark, you'regoing to have those
conversations like I had time'sover, and it is, I'll tell you
(30:35):
what. We all receive awards inour career, but if I asked you,
Angie, like an award you got 10years ago. Can you tell me what
you spent the money on?
Angie (30:44):
I don't think I got an award 10 years ago. So no, so,
but no, I can't.
Unknown (30:50):
But if I asked you, can you name three people that
you've helped in their career?You could probably name three
people right
Angie (30:59):
now. Yeah, one of them introduced us. There you go. Hi
Julie. I was gonna say hi to herat some point, but, right,
that's the thing is. And thisgoes, you know, there's a,
there's a Maya Angelou quotethat I think comes into play
here, and it's, it's kind of oneof my favorite slides in most of
my slide decks, which is, peoplewill forget what you do, people
(31:22):
will forget what you say, butthey will never forget how you
made them feel. And to me, thatis really what's at the core of
this. Is you made her feelempowered to have possibilities,
to have choice, and you maybeeven saw something in her that
she didn't see in herself. Andthat is the ultimate gift we can
give to another human being,
Unknown (31:40):
if, if, if your listeners haven't already, I'm a
huge fan of the book The Art ofhappiness, by the Dalai Lama.
And in the art of happiness, hetalks about kind of superficial
happiness. Say you have asandwich for lunch, that is
fantastic. Does that sandwichstill make you happy two days
later?
Angie (32:01):
No, really, there's some meals that still make me happy
years later, but it is the itisn't. It is the anomaly, that's
for sure. It's the anomaly thatmade me happy in a moment,
Unknown (32:10):
exactly. But then, if you think about helping others,
if you focus on others, thatcontentment and fulfillment will
will continue with you foryears. And so happiness is not
about having that great meal orwhatever you can think of short
term. It's the focusing in onothers. And you know, yeah,
(32:34):
people might say, Oh, this is abunch of fluff. It actually
elevates yourself and the peopleyou work with? Yes. Yes, it
does. And if you can take thatperspective, and I would argue,
combine it with humility, andanother thing the Dalai Lama
says is he's just one of the 8billion people, and that's why
(32:54):
he's not arrogant. If you're ina company of 500 people, you are
paid not for your importance.You're paid for your
responsibilities. So if you're aleader, and you see yourself as
just one of those 500 people,and if you're looking out for
others, that is a combination asa leader that will pay dividends
(33:19):
in space.
Angie (33:21):
Deep thoughts, Chris and Angie, however, I'm not gonna go
get it, but the book is upthere. I think it's right around
there somewhere, the Dalai Lama,art of happiness. And you know
how I'll, how I'll phrase that,and this is kind of my
interpretation of it. Is likehappiness to me, is an ex is an
experience, yeah. Whereaslasting happiness is where we
(33:42):
start to really dip into joy.And I think that living a joyful
life is something that we shouldall be aspiring to. It all looks
different to us. And if we cansupport each other in uh,
enabling that joy, isn't that anincredible thing to say that you
you did,
Unknown (33:58):
and maybe the quick question is, on a Monday
morning. Would you rather get uplooking to be excited about work
or dreading that you have to goto work?
Angie (34:08):
Well, this is a show called No More Mondays. I know
my answer, and I hope all of youdo that's a perfect way to wrap
up a pretty amazingconversation. So I want you to
go ahead and tell everybody howthey continue to follow along
with you. And the get the bookfollow along into this the you
know, all of these amazing toolsthat you're going to roll out.
How do we stay in touch withyou?
Unknown (34:29):
So and Luma group.com is our website. We also have on
demand courses on there, whereit's a hybrid between exercises,
you do online sessions, and youalways have coaching with us at
the end, so there's always alive piece. The tool that we're
building right now is our AItool. We're going to do beta
testing in October, I would sayearly 26 q1 26 is when we'd have
(34:54):
a broader launch. You can checkme out on LinkedIn, also in Luma
group. Here is on LinkedIn aswell. And then I've got a sub
stack and a YouTube page aswell.
Angie (35:05):
Oh, I'm into sub stack. We're going to connect with you
here, with you there, andobviously all of you out there
watching here in LinkedIn land,connect with with Chris, for
sure. He and I like to engageand clearly share perspectives
on things and and I am excitedto see where all of the humans
still matter work that you arealso doing. Yeah, goes. It's
(35:26):
been excellent conversation.Chris Sprague, thank you so
Unknown (35:28):
much. Yeah, Angie, thank you so much for having me.
Really enjoyed it. I want all ofyou out
Angie (35:32):
there to remember that real leadership isn't about
control. It's about courage andconnection and community. How
many hard C's can we throw atthat baby? Healthy, sustainable
leadership is not selfish, it isselfless. And we get that
backwards a lot in societytoday. If you can help people be
anti mediocre, you will be thememorable person in their life,
(35:52):
and you never know whatpossibility that will bring. And
Chris, this was a greatconversation to remind people of
that. So all of you out there,whether you're leading a team or
just trying to lead yourselfthrough life. Take a good look
at where you're bringing peoplealong with you or your own
person along with you, and behonest about where you can
improve. And if Chris and I canhelp or you just want to share,
(36:13):
we welcome messages. Dropcomments here. Leave us a note.
Send us a LinkedIn message. Wewant to hear. What's working for
you and what kind of leadershipyou want to see more in the
world as we go out and do thework we're doing once again.
Chris Sprague, thank you so muchfor being here and joining the
no more Mondays movement.
Unknown (36:28):
Yeah, thanks a lot, Angie. Really appreciate having
me. Thank
Angie (36:31):
you all for joining us. I am Angie Callen, and this has
been another amazing becausethey're all amazing episode of
no more Mondays. Big thanks toChris for showing us what's
possible when leadership startswith people. And if all of you
need a little inspiration foryour person to get through the
middle of the week, don't forgetto pick up our new mini episode
mid week momentum it drops everyWednesday afternoon, right in
(36:52):
time to help you get over thehump. In the meantime, I will
catch you next week on Mondaymorning for another edition of
no more Mondays podcast. You.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.