Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Gotta get up, get up Tell thewhole world you a winner winner vision
of a star with a mission inthe cause what you doing, how you
doing, what you're doing andwho you are Flex yourself and press
yourself Check yourself, don'twreck yourself if you know me then
you know that I'll be knowingwhat's up. Hey, Stephanie. Graham
is nosy. WLPNLP Chicago, 105.5FM. Lumpedin radio. Hi, Chicago,
(00:29):
two o'. Clock. Welcome. I amso excited to be here with you today.
We have the wonderful DanielleScruggs in the building. I have a
little bio I'm going to shareabout her. So today I'm joined with
Danielle Scruggs, Chicagobased photo editor, photographer,
writer and curator. She's thefounder of Black Women Directors,
(00:51):
a platform celebrating thework of black women and non binary
filmmakers. And her work hasbeen featured everywhere from Marie
Claire to British FilmInstitute. Dani Hill has also shaped
the stories as a photo editorat the Wall Street Journal, Yeti
Images, Vox Media and espn.And beyond that, she curates films
that we're gonna or filmprograms that we're gonna talk to
(01:11):
today, such as File UnderHorror and the upcoming Chicago Film
Symposium. Welcome, Danielle.
Thank you for having me.
I'm so happy to have you here.Chicago's so lucky to have you.
Oh, thank you.
Yes. Danielle, we have to sayour tribute to Assata Shakur. What
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a woman.
Absolutely. I've been postingmy copy of her autobiography online
pretty much everywhere that Iam online, because that was just
such a transformative book forme. And just like, learning her life
story and just knowingeverything that she stood for throughout
(01:55):
her life. There's like,honestly, like, kind of no words
to describe knowing that she'san ancestor now. But, yeah, definitely
her life. And her words, like,deeply resonated with me as a teen
and as an adult.
Yeah, I'm really. I justdownloaded her audiobook because
(02:20):
I've never read it, herautobiography, actually. And I've
heard so many great thingsabout it, and I don't know what I
was waiting on, but now I havesomething to read. And I saw pictures
of her, like, just looking onthe Internet, pictures of her, and
I'm so curious about herhouse. It, like, looked really cool.
Like, some pictures, they'relike, these are pictures with, you
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know, insert amazing person atAssata's home. I'm like, ooh, are
those floating stairs I seeback there? Like, I want to see more.
Yeah. Like, she. I feel likeshe just like cultivated a life of
freedom, even though she Wasin exile. But I think, like, she
really. She was really focusedon what it means to actually be free
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and not free in the way of,like, I think we've come to mean
freedom in terms of, like,living in capitalism and everything,
but, like, freedom in termsof, like, how you approach life freedom
just in terms of, like, notbelieving kind of distorted images
about yourself or about otherpeople of color or like other people
(03:23):
who are oppressed. So, yeah, Ijust. She's definitely, like, one
of my guiding lights, forsure. And I think, like, reading
her book as a teen really kindof helped shape my own kind of general
way of life, like, generalkind of way of being and like, how
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I approach a lot of things inmy life, like the artistic stuff
and then also just like beinga person, like just being, you know,
just trying to, you know,leave good in the world.
Yeah, for sure. Rest in peace, Asada.
Yes.
What a life. Wow. Well,Danielle, you know you just came
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back from Wisconsin, right?
Yes, indeed.
Yes.
Yeah. I did a one night onlyhorror screening called File Under
Horror.
Yeah.
And it was a short filmshowcase of work, horror films made
completely by black women andnon binary filmmakers. And it was
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actually a really. It was areally interesting event. You know,
we actually sold out, like,ran out of chairs.
Wow. Wow. Yeah. Cool.
And this was actually thefirst solo event that I did as part
of black Women Directors. So Iwas really, really excited about
that. And for it to be inKenosha, Wisconsin, was really gratifying.
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Are you a horror fan?
Oh. Oh, my God. I love horror movies.
Really?
I love horror movies so much.Like, I grew up. Literally grew up
watching them. Like, Iremember being like, I think I was
like 5 or 6 and like watchingFrankenstein and getting upset. Not
because the monster was scaryor whatever, but because the. The
townspeople were like,attacking this person. I'm like,
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but, well, the monster. But Iwas like, but they didn't do anything
in any way. So, yeah, that wasmy kind of first entry into horror.
Just rooting for the monster.
Yeah. I've never seenFrankenstein. I don't like to be
scared. So when I saw that, Iwas like, I hope they have the best.
Time, but I will not be overthere. Yeah, but you will not see
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me tonight.
Yes. But I was just socurious. I'm like, okay, what inspired
Danielle to create File Under Horror?
Yeah. Yeah, that was. Yeah,that's like, from being a horror
movie fan. And then also the.The venue that I did it as the final
girl bar in Kenosha. Yeah.They actually reached out to Me,
because they read mynewsletter, the Black Women Director's
Newsletter. And I talked aboutwanting to do more like in person
(06:01):
event, like community events.And yeah, they reached out, was like,
hey, we have this space.
Oh, that's.
We'd love to host an event.And so. And so I thought, like, oh,
you know, the final girl ishorror themed horror movies through
a black woman. Non binaryfemme wins. Let's go.
Yeah, that's awesome. And itsold out, basically.
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Yeah, we ran out of chairs,which that was on the survey of like,
hey, make sure next time youhave chairs. I was like, yes, indeed.
What the films, like, theyexplored that were like grief, legacy,
rage and survival. What drewyou to those particular works and
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directors?
Yeah, what drew me to them?Well, so actually one of the films
that I saw, I saw at BlackHarvest Film Festival last year called
the Garden of Edet. And I justlove that movie because it really
talks about. I mean, yes, it'slike, it's a horror movie. It's like
about this Creole woman who.Who has like this haunted garden,
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basically, and she has todecide between protecting a new friend
that she makes or protectingthis flesh eating garden. But really,
like, the movie was about likelegacy and, you know, passing down
heritage, passing downtraditions, the dangers of like not
understanding, like, where youcome from. So that was something.
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That's something that I reallylike about horror movie just in general.
Like, horror movies ingeneral. It's just that you can talk
about like really deep seriousissues, but you can almost kind of
get at the heart of it betterwhen it's through like this kind
of fantastical lens. Like whenit's through like the lens of like,
you know, a monster or likeflesh eating garden or, you know,
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like it represents somethinglarger than that.
Hmm. Did anybody scream?
I didn't hear anyone scream.But definitely there were some movies
though, where people weretalking back to the scream, which
I love.
I love that.
I love when that happens. Thelast movie that we screened, Hairwolf,
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which is actually more of likea horror satire.
Okay.
But definitely people weretalking back to the screen. They
were like, don't go in there.Like, oh my God, did she say that?
So, yeah, that's what I loveabout doing in person events too.
It's just like hearing thatimmediate feedback, hearing people
really get into the stories.Yeah, nothing like it.
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Some people do not like that.But I think that that really marks
the success of a film if youhave people talking back, exact getting
mad at the characters, cursingthem out.
Exactly. That's how you know,like You've made, like, a really
successful film where peoplecan get, like, really just, like,
entangled with the charactersand, like, to the point where there's
like, don't go in there, like,talking back.
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Yeah. What I liked about it,when I was sharing that with other
friends that I know lovehorror films, a lot of people are
like, whoa, whoa, okay, okay.Like, black women, you know, black
femmes in horror. I'm like,yeah. Because I don't think you think
about that. I think. And maybebecause I'm a whore, I'm like. Like,
I don't pay attention to itbecause I don't like to be scared.
(09:13):
It does. When I see peoplelove it so much, I'm like, maybe
I should try to give it achance. And then someone told me,
I get it confused with gorebecause maybe that's another genre.
I'm not sure. But yeah.
Yeah, there are definitelysome horror movies where it's just,
like. It's more about shockvalue and it is more about gore.
(09:34):
But the horror movies thatreally resonate with me are the ones
that. Yeah. Like, what I wastalking about before kind of, like,
use horror to talk about,like, other issues or deeper issues.
And that's not to say that youcan't have fun or that it's like,
you're not gonna enjoyyourself. But I think, like, those
are the kind of stories thatresonate with me the most. Just like,
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stories that use horror as,like, a metaphor. Like horror as,
like. Yeah. Kind of, like alens to talk about, like, things
going on in society at large.
Yeah. When you say it likethat, maybe I will give it a shot
because I'm like, okay, I canget behind some of this.
Yeah. Yeah. Horror is great. Yeah.
Without, like, thinking it'sgonna be like, somebody turned around
with, like, a skate in theirface or something.
(10:20):
I mean, those kind of movieshave their place too. But, yeah,
I think, like, yeah,definitely the stories that resonate
with me are more like. Iguess, like, stories that are more,
like, creepy.
Sure.
Than, like, here's, like, abucket of, like, blood everywhere.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you.
Wait, is there anybody that's,like, in the Hollywood system of,
like, a black woman that'sdirected a horror film? Do you know?
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Oh, yeah. Nia Dacosta.
Oh, right, right, right,right, right, right.
She did the Candyman remakeand then she's doing the 28 years
later.
That's right. That's right.Okay, cool. Because, yeah, one of
my questions was going to belike, do you think audiences are
finally catching up to thecontributions of black, you know,
contributions that black womenhave made in horror.
(11:03):
Mm. I mean, I would say yesand no, because on the one hand,
Candyman was. Let's see. Iwant to make sure I get this right.
But I believe Candyman was thefirst movie that went to number one
that was directed by a blackwoman. And so I think that does kind
of show that, like, people areready for something new and, like,
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they are ready for storiesmade by black women in the horror
space. But then at the sametime, it's like, there's not other.
Like, the fact that. Okay.Cause Candyman came out in 2021,
so the fact that it took thatlong, Right. For a movie to go number
one directed by a black womanis like, oh, what are we doing here?
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Like, it shouldn't be takingthat long. We shouldn't still be
having first in that kind ofway. But I do think that that shows.
Okay. Like, people are, like,more primed for, like, different
kind of stories and differentkind of storytellers. But I think
it's like, okay, but we. Weneed to pick up the pace for sure.
And that's so crazy, like,2021, I think, maybe, because, like,
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we've all been callingCandyman since we were, like, eight.
I remember, like, getting introuble for that in daycare. That's
probably what started my.Like, you know what? I'm, like, traumatized.
I'm like, never mind. Never mind.
I traumatized myself. Oh, mygosh. But black women directors,
that started as a Tumblr in2015, and now everybody loves it.
It's blown up. You've blownup, mama.
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We made it.
How has, like, the journeyevolved over the years?
Yeah, because it's kind ofwild to think about, like, 2015 being
10 years ago, but yeah.
Ooh, anniversary party.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And you. Yeah,I need to put a pin in that.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
I wish I had, like, turnaround and it would be a cake coming
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out.
Oh. But, yeah, it's been. Imean, really, the biggest thing has
been is a learning process.It's been because, yeah, really,
I started it as a way toeducate myself, and that's why I
started it on Tumblr, becauseit was more so going to be like a
personal blog where I just,like, collected things, like, as
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I went along. But it wasalmost like as soon as I started
it, like, people startedwriting into me. It was like, oh,
hey, add this director. Like,oh, you should check this person
out or let me connect you tothis person. And directors themselves
started reaching out to me,the British Film Institute linked
to the site on their officialTwitter page, and Blavity wrote about
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it. So that just showed to methat, oh, this was a resource that
I started for myself, butother people are looking for. For
this kind of resource, too.And, like, other people are looking
for, again, something kind ofdifferent. Like, something that's
not, like, the usual of, like,what they've been told is an important
story or, like, here's like,an auteur. And usually when people
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talk about auteurs InHollywood, like, 9.5 times out of
10, like, they're talkingabout a white man. And, you know,
no offense, you know, nothingwrong with the white, you know, dudes
making their movies out there.Like, I'm not saying that, but what
I am saying, though, is thatwe need to kind of expand our definition
of, like, what's an importantstory? What's a story worth telling?
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Who's an auteur, like, who's,like, a storyteller worth, you know,
paying attention to? Like, wejust need to expand that definition.
And that's what black womendirectors was about or is about.
Yeah. What has been, like, themost surprising discovery, like,
while building this archive to you?
The most surprising discovery?Oh, that's such a good question.
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Oh, you know, finding out thatZora Neale Hurston was a filmmaker.
What?
Yeah, I found out about itthrough doing research because I
was looking for, like,filmmakers from, like, the early
20th century. Because most ofthe time, like, I was. When you look
at 20th century filmmakers,like, they're talking about, especially
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for black women, it's mostly,like, kind of starting, like, late
60s, early 70s. But I was,like, looking to see was there anyone
before that that I'm, like,not aware of? And. Yeah, that's,
like, how I found out through,like, looking through, like, the
Florida archives and, like,looking up Zora Neale Hurston and
looking up her, like,anthropological work. Like, her film
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work was part of thatanthropological work. And so she
actually went to Florida andnot only wrote about black Floridians
and, like, black communities,like, throughout that state, but
she also made films.
Wow.
And I believe CriterionCollection had it streaming on their
(15:46):
channel for a while. I don'tknow if they still have it, but.
Yeah, but they were streamingit for a long time, and I think there
are snippets on YouTube aswell. So that was something that
was, like, really fascinatingto me, just knowing that, you know,
this black woman, who we allknow is, like, a playwright, as an
author, was also a filmmaker.
Right. In, like, many films orseveral, like, short documentary.
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Yeah. Huh. That's really cool.Who knew?
Yeah. Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, I've been. Yeah. Findingout just, like, little gems like
that. Well, I guess that's nota little gym. That's, like, a pretty
big gym. Yeah. But, yeah, justagain, like, that educational part
of it. It's just been what'sbeen really exciting for me.
Yeah. I'm not sure where, butI've seen you, like, describe black
(16:30):
women directors as a beaconand a signal fire.
Oh, that was actually one ofthe testimonials on the site.
Oh, okay. I was like, wheredid I see that? Oh, that's great.
That's so nice that somebodysaid that.
Yeah. I was like, oh. Because,like. Oh, yeah. I actually, like,
just reached out to people,like, when I was redesigning the
site, just, like, askingpeople, you know, if you've ever
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used the site before, just,like, let me know what it means to
you or, like, if you'velearned anything from it or gotten,
like, any value out of it.And. Yeah, that was one of the things
people wrote in.
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Like,I feel I started my podcast project
in a way of, like, let mefind. I would always, like, look
for artists who are, like,talking about their work, but you
(17:10):
would only see, like, like,really famous folks. And you might
find something, but, like,maybe the audio's not that great
or it's not that long. And Ilove to hear artists talk about their
work. And I'm like, I'm justgonna start this myself, you know?
Like, I'm gonna startsomething myself to find, like, artists
who I would love to hear speakabout their word, speak about their
work, and it also, in its ownsense, becomes an archive as well.
(17:33):
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love hearing about process,too. Like, I'm such a process nerd.
Like, I always listen to theDVD extras and, like, the director's
commentary, because I justlove seeing, like, how other people's
creative process, especiallyin fields that are different from
mine. And, like, I kind ofsee, like, what can I take away from
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it, too, that I can bring to,like, my own practice.
Exactly. I know. I love goingto, like, lectures and stuff.
Yes. Same, same.
I remember somebody who'slike, what do you like to do for
fun? I'm like, go to lectures.They're like, okay. I'm like, you
asked and that's a good time.Okay, it is.
You know, you don't have ahangover afterward.
Okay.
(18:15):
Right.
They have refreshments sometimes.
Right. Exactly.
Mix and mingle.
Exactly.
A lot of times free parking.Like at Northwestern it was free
parking. You know, you go onin there and it's great. Have a good
time. What's your like, likegoals with like black women directors
as it becomes like this, youknow, like a searchable database
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basically is what it's become.But like, what other fun goals do
you have with it?
Oh, yeah, well, I definitelywant to keep doing more community
programming and in personevents. Well, probably virtual events
too, in case people can't cometo Chicago proper for it. But. But
yeah, I definitely want tokeep bringing people together because
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that was something that Ireally like doing with the file under
horror screening and then alsowith the Chicago Film Symposium.
Yeah, I. I just love beingable to get a lot of people together
and like kind of, you know,experience art and talk about it
and connect with other peopleas well. So that's definitely something
I want to keep doing. And thenI also with the archive itself, I
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definitely want to kind ofexpand the archive and hopefully
start including posters ormovie websites or preserving that
and preserving that digitallyfor like people to like almost kind
of use as like. Yeah, almostkind of see it as like more of like
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a reference library. So like,that's like kind of what I want to
evolve it into. So.
Yeah, you said folks had hityou up. Like, what if people are
like, oh, my cousin directsand she's not in the directory, then
what happens?
Oh, yeah. So I actually. Thatdoes tend to happen a lot really.
So I actually ended up justcreating a submission form for people
(20:10):
to. To basically kind of likeself select into the site as well.
And then like I kind of gothrough and see, you know, is this
something that I can like,because I also kind of have like
certain criteria for myself.Sure. Like, I try to focus more on
like filmmakers who have madelike short films and feature length
(20:31):
films or like documentaries.Because if I get into like TV directing,
then that's like a whole othercan of words. I'm like, oh man, that's
like, I'm only one person.Like, there's only so much I can
do. So I'm trying to likefocus on. Yeah, people have made
like short films or likedocumentary films. Yeah. Narrative,
feature films, like that kindof thing. And yeah, just like kind
(20:53):
of like having a vettingprocess I think has helped because
like, sometimes like, it'seasy to kind of like email in and
say like, oh, well, you know,I don't see this person or oh, I
should be in it. And I'm like,okay, well here, like fill out this
form and, like, you know,like, let me know, like, kind of,
you know, you have, like, filmstills, you have a bio, you have
a headshot. And I think, like,that kind of. That kind of tends
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to, like, it kind of tends toshow you, like, who's, like, serious,
like, who's kind of, like.
Who'S ready. Like, who's doing it?
Who's doing it? Who's doing it.
Right, yeah, exactly. And alsoyou need those, like, things to fill
out for the website. So it'slike, I need these documents in order
(21:35):
to include you.
Right, exactly.
As well.
It's like, if you have that atthe ready, it's like, okay. Like,
I can, you know, that makessense to, like, add to the database
versus, like, okay, if you'renot filling that in, maybe you're
just not ready at this time.And, like, that's okay. But, like,
I think, like, even havingsomething as simple as that has,
like, kind of shown. Yeah.Who's kind of. I mean, I don't want
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to say serious. It has, like,a negative connotation, but, like,
who's, like, kind of moreactive and ready.
Sure, yeah, yeah. And who hasthe documents to put that you need
to type in, you know, right.
To maintain a. Right. Andalso, like, to maintain a proper
archive, too, because, like,you know, I do want to make this,
like, a resource for people,too. So it's like, I do need, you
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know, like, film stills and,like, you know, log lines and, you
know, a bio from you. And,like, that just, like, makes it,
like, easier for other peopleto find you when they are looking
through the database. So.
Yeah, yeah. That's also sortof like a wild thing, too, because,
like, how you started this outas like, a personal research project
(22:42):
for yourself, and now it sortof becomes this, like, this piece
to be included in. And so it'slike you become, I don't want to
say like a gatekeeper, but,like, you become, you know, like
something that somebody wantsto be a part of.
Right.
Like, people want to havetheir film and, like, be documented.
If they're a black womandirector. I could see everybody wanting
(23:04):
to make sure that they're apart of this database. And then if
you have this, like, vettingprocess, like, it's just like, now
it's like. I don't know whatI'm trying to say, but I think I'm
just trying to say, like, howimportant it is.
And.
Yeah, you just want to, like,people just want to be a part of
it.
Yeah.
I mean, talking about makessense, though.
No, that Makes perfect sense.Yeah. I wouldn't say gatekeeper.
(23:27):
I don't. I don't want to feel like.
No, I didn't mean it that way.
Oh, yeah. But I would saymore. More like, like, yeah, steward.
Or like, yeah, steward.
Like, just like, wanting toreally, like, make. Yeah. Like, make
a resource for people. So alsojust, like, so people can see that
again. Like, when people thinkof, like, who's a filmmaker, like,
(23:48):
who's, like, out here tellingstories, like, it's not. It's not
this limited view of, like,what a filmmaker is. It's like, here's,
like, here's what a filmmakercould look like and here's all the
incredible, like, wide arrayof work that's being made.
Yeah, I just think it's soneat. Like, I love being able to
(24:10):
go there and, like, search upsomeone. But are all the films, like,
accessible when you, like,click on a director? Or does it,
like, is it. Does it mostly onthe site give you an opportunity
to see, like, who's out heremaking films, and then it's up to
us to follow up and see wherewe could see these films too, right?
Oh, yeah. So, yeah. Thank youfor asking that. Because as much
(24:31):
as possible, I try to includewhere a film is streaming. So I'll
list the director, have theirbio, and then beneath that, have
a list of all their films. Andthen I'll have a link to the trailer
if it is available. And thenalso I'll list out where it's streaming.
So I'll say, like, oh, it'savailable on YouTube or, you know,
(24:52):
you can stream it on Apple orit's on HBO Max or, you know, one
of those multitude ofstreaming services that are out there.
So, yeah, definitely try toinclude that information as much
as possible.
Yeah. And so you also havethis thing, the Chicago Film Symposium.
Can you tell us about that?
Yes, very excited to talkabout that. It's actually the second
(25:14):
annual film symposium iscoming up on November 1st at the
Green Line Performing ArtsCenter. So this year we're partnering
with UChicago Arts and theArts and Public life.
Oh, cool.
And so, yeah, we're going tobe screening movies by black and
brown filmmakers who are fromthe Chicagoland area, and then also
(25:35):
having panel discussions onthe art and business of filmmaking.
Ooh, I love a panel.
Yeah, yeah, we were talkingabout lectures, so, yeah. And then.
So we'll be doing that thisyear. And last year we had the first
ever symposium at the Sistersin Cinema Media Arts center in South
Shore. And yeah, we did thesame Thing, we screened films by
(25:59):
six different filmmakers, allfrom Chicago or in the Chicagoland
area, and, yeah, had twopanels about the art and business
of filmmaking. Jada Amino,who's the curator of Black Harvest
Film Festival, was themoderator for one of the panels.
And then a lot of thefilmmakers that we screened are doing,
(26:24):
you know, incredible, like,incredible things. Like, I'm, like,
really excited to see thatthey, you know, submitted in the
first place because, like,they're doing, like, incredible things.
Like, one of the filmmakers isan actor on 911, and I think that's
what the show is called, right?
I think so, yeah. It's, like,on CBS or Fox or one of those.
(26:46):
But, yeah, she's. But, yeah,she. So she's an actress, also a
director. She's shown her workin Excel Film XL Fest. A couple of
other directors like Kid Marieand Alain Delange, they're in New
Fest, another film festivalthat's, like, really prestigious.
(27:06):
And so, yeah, just the factthat, like, we were able to kind
of gather them all together inone spot was just, like, really.
Was just really exciting forme. And just, like, seeing, again,
just, like, all the differentkinds of storytelling that's going
(27:28):
on in Chicago and being ableto showcase that for people was just,
like, incredibly humbling anda real honor.
That's the word I think I waslooking for when I was describing
Black women directors. Yousaid it prestigious. Yeah, I think
that's what it feels like.Prestigious. To be included in that.
Yeah, I really do. Becauseit's like, it's such a beautiful
(27:49):
sight and everything, so Icould see how people be like, hey,
put me in here. I'm not inhere. Put me in here. Well, that's
super exciting. Yeah. Youknow, the thing about all film festivals
that you go to, whether itjust be, like, a short program or
you're going to see, like,these features at, like, a major
film festival is just how manypeople are out here, like, making
(28:12):
films. That's so wild. To me.It's like Hollywood is just, like,
a dot of, like, the whole filmworld, really. I mean, seriously,
there's so many people gettingdown out here and telling just.
Like, so many diverse kinds ofstories, too.
Yeah, no, that's like. I justlove it. Like, wow. I'm always so
(28:35):
inspired because I thinkabout, like, everybody in their little.
Like that little. But, youknow, like, their crews and, like,
his saying, action. Just allover the world as they make these
projects. I love it so much.Well, y', all, we have to take a
quick break, but we will Beback. We are here with Danielle Scruggs
and this is Lumpin Radio. Buthere come our ads. Okie dokie. WLP,
(29:01):
NLP Chicago 105.5 FM Lumpinradio. We are back with Danielle
Scruggs and we were justtalking about the wonderful Chicago
Film Symposium that is comingup November 1st. What do you hope
audiences walk away with afterthey attend the symposium? Oh, yeah.
(29:22):
Oh, well, first, before Ianswer that, I just want to make
sure to shout out that ChicagoFilm Symposium is a collaboration
between myself, the blackWomen directors platform, and also
Black Film Club Collective,which is a two person crew that curates
(29:44):
all different kinds of blackfilm events across the city. So just
wanted to make sure I shoutedthem out as well.
Ooh, yeah. And how did y' allget to know each other?
Oh, through Instagram.
Oh, I love it.
Yeah, I just sent them amessage on Instagram last year and
was just like, would you beinterested in collaborating? And
then it just kind ofeverything kind of sparked from there.
(30:06):
From there. See, you know whenpeople are always talking about getting
off Instagram, while Iunderstand, I'm always like, but
what are we gonna do about thewhole DM situation when you leave?
Because it really does go downin the dms.
It does. But as someone whofeels kind of ambivalent about social
media in general, I will saythat I'm still a believer in email
(30:30):
as well.
Oh my God.
Still a believer in like,yeah, I guess kind of old fashioned
ways of communicating. Whichis weird to think about email being
old fashioned now, but I guessit is.
I love email and I love emailnewsletters. I really do see with
my planner on Saturday and Iopen up my newsletters and I see
(30:51):
what people have going on inthe emails and I plan out my week
through it. I just love email.
Yeah, I like a good email too.And I really like newsletters too.
So yeah, like, that's myalternative there. But yeah, Instagram
actually came through thattime and it actually worked out.
(31:12):
Yeah. And then to answer yourquestion about what do I hope audiences
leave with?
Yeah, like, you know, what doyou hope audiences walk away with
after they attend the symposium?
Oh, yeah, I hope they walkaway, I guess, just like realizing
that there is. Well, first ofall, there's like tons of talent
(31:32):
right here in Chicago.
Sure.
And you don't necessarily haveto go to New York or LA to either
see great film or make greatfilms. So that's something that I
hope people take away. Andthen also just like the community
aspect too. Like, I reallyHope that people come away feeling.
This is gonna sound so corny,but it's true. But, like, I really
(31:54):
want people to, you know, feelcloser to their neighbors and feel,
like, more connected withpeople who maybe have, like, you
know, like, minded hobbies.Cause it's like, hey, we're all at
a film symposium together. Andso, yeah, like, I really hope that
people come away withconnection and feeling. Yeah. Just
(32:15):
feeling like this is a safespace that they can go to to experience
art and to build communitywith other people.
Yeah, no doubt. Yeah. Ifthere's, like, anybody out there
that loves to go to lecturesor panel discussions, want to come
with me? Come on. But be aneighbor in that way, because. Yeah,
you're right. What else sortof excites you most about the filmmakers
(32:38):
and stories that are comingout of Chicago right now? Do you
have anything that makes you excited?
Oh, I mean, I think reallyit's just seeing just, like, the
diversity of, like, approachesand thought and style. Because last
year when we show the. When wescreen films, we had, like, a pretty
(32:58):
good mix of, you know, we hada documentary about how it was middle
school students who campaignedto change the name of Douglas park
to be named after Frederick Douglass.
Oh, okay.
As opposed to Stephen Douglas.So we had a documentary about that.
Then we had a sci fi moviethat, like, that was, like. But it
(33:20):
was talking about kind of,like, cultural appropriation, but
through, like, this sci fikind of lens, which was, like, really
great to see. We had, like,other films that, like, kind of talked
about what it's like to, youknow, grow up and, like, leave home.
But it was, like, all silent.And it was just like. Well, it wasn't
silent, but there was nodialogue. It was just, like, all
(33:41):
images and sound and, like,images and music and so. So, yeah,
just like, seeing just, like,this wide variety of, like. Yeah.
Styles and approaches andstories and, you know, we only showed
six films, but, like, we show,like, there was, like, so much diversity
(34:02):
within that. And that justgoes to show just, like, how much.
How much is happening on theChicago film scene and how exciting
that is. And, yeah, I just,like, want to keep showing more of,
like, what. What's here in Chicago.
I think another thing that Ilove, too, when you go to, like,
a film program like that,where these films have been selected
for you, is that you sort ofget forced to look at films that
(34:24):
you might not usually see.Like, if you're not usually into,
you know, documentary. Butthere's a documentary film that's,
like, in the middle of theprogram now, you know, you're watching
documentary, it might, youknow, excite you to watch more, you
know, especially if you're notinterested. So I really love that,
especially like in shortsprograms. Cause it's just always
like, so different. At leastsome of the ones I go to, they just
(34:46):
like put like, this is aboutfamily films. But, you know, that's
like so vague.
Right, Exactly.
It could be about anythingaround family. And so you just get
to see, like, yeah, just likeall the stuff that folks are making.
I really love because I thinkbecause I'm like art department background,
you know, seeing like, at thedifferent levels of like, you know,
(35:08):
production design that peoplehave put into their films and stuff.
And I just love that so muchbecause, you know, like, when you
work on, like, these bigproductions, like, the budgets are
so insane. And so when peoplehave like, no budget or like, very
small budget and you see likethese beautiful projects, you're
just like, wow, this is great.You know, like, you can always like,
get down with like, you know,more with less, you know.
(35:29):
Yeah, exactly. That actuallyreminded me of this. This film series
I saw when I was in gradschool. I think it was. It's like
Dogma 95, I think. I thinkthat's the title of it. But it was.
Or. Or it's based on thoseprinciples. But this. The movie was
called the Five Obstructions.So these different filmmakers who
(35:51):
are, like, based all acrossthe world, had to make a film but
like, with these very, likewithin these very specific parameters.
And like, they couldn't gooutside those parameters. And so
you got to see, like, how allthese different filmmakers approached
limits and like, how they wereable to, like, still make the film
that they wanted in theirstyle, but, like, in like, this very,
(36:11):
like, kind of limitedstructure. And I thought, like, oh,
like, that's like, it's like areally good reminder that, like,
even if you don't have, youknow, like a Hollywood studio style
budget, you can still make thestory that you want. And sometimes
even like those constraintscan kind of force you to be even
more creative than you wouldhave been with the bigger budget
(36:32):
and everything.
Yeah, that reminds me of. Iremember maybe it was Canon, one
of these big camera companies,they had given their latest camera
to all these directors andthey gave one to Hype Williams. And
Hype was calling, like, allhis, like, celebrity friends, like,
hey, I need to, like, shootthis thing. You know, like, can you
(36:53):
do something? And they keptblowing him off. But then Hype turned
the camera, like, on with hiskid and like, Just showed his kid
all day, like, with thecamera. And I thought it was, like,
the best one, you know? Cause,like, I remember going to the screening
to see, like, the depths of,like, all the things this thing that
this camera could do. And sothey showed all these different filmmakers,
but that was the one thatstood out to me, was the one with
(37:13):
his daughter. Or at least itwas a kid. I think it was his daughter,
but just a kid. A kid forsure. But I was like, that was so
cute. And, like, he had allthe different, like, lens changing
and all this stuff. And I'mlike, you really did get to see the
camera through, you know,through him doing it. And it's like,
see, you don't need all ofthese, like, celebrities to be in
this project you did. You maydo with your.
With your kid. Right, Exactly.Yeah. It's just like, you know. Yeah.
(37:37):
Again, shows, like, howconstraint can kind of foster creativity.
Yeah. Well, I think the filmsymposium sounds lovely. I also love
a symposium. Who doesn't?
It has a nice ring to it, you know?
Yeah. It really sounds like,oh, man, I'm about to go to a symposium.
Like, y' all can't get withme. Oh, my gosh. But, like, also,
(38:02):
you've been a photo editor at,like, places like Wall Street Journal,
Getty Vox, espn, all theseplaces. How do you think your editorial
eye influences your work as a curator?
Ooh, I love that question. Ithink it's because you're always
(38:24):
kind of figuring out what thestory is. Cause, like, as a photo
editor, you know, you'reconstantly reading everything that
you're either photoresearching for or commissioning
a photographer for. You haveto know what the story is. And so
you're constantly readingdrafts and then also having conversations
(38:44):
with reporters and editorsabout what's the core of this story,
what's this about? And thenkind of building the visuals around
that. And so I think it's kindof similar to curating because you
also kind of have to know whatstory are you trying to tell. And.
And kind of instead ofbuilding visuals around that for
(39:05):
a news story, you're building,like, a film program around, like,
what you want the story. Like.Yeah, kind of. What story is it that
you're trying to tell?
Sure. That's really. It like,keeps you on your toes. How do you
balance all of it? Like, howdo you balance, like, being. Cause
you're a maker yourself. Like,you do photography yourself.
Yeah. I mean, lately Ihaven't. I've been really wanting
(39:27):
to get back into, like,actually making photography. Again,
Hopefully I get back into that soon.
Me too.
Maybe we could be.
Accountability.
I was just gonna say, like, Ineed someone to hold my feet to the
fire.
I would really. Yes, I wouldlove that. Okay. Side note.
Accountability, buddy.Accountability, buddy.
Yes.
But, yeah, that is a very goodquestion. How do I. How am I balancing
(39:50):
all of this out?
I know you're like a maker,curator, archivist, you know.
Yeah, I mean, I guess, like, Iguess I've always have kind of been
that way of like, needing tohave a lot of different things to
work on. Cause, like, I feelkind of. Honestly, I feel kind of
(40:10):
weird if I'm only doing onething at a time. Like, I feel like.
Cause I feel like all thosethings kind of feed each other too.
Like, you know, being aphotographer, being a photo editor,
being a writer, being acurator, like, all those things kind
of feed each other. And Ithink those things kind of. Hopefully
they make me, like, all thosethings also make me stronger in each
(40:31):
one of those things too.Because I definitely feel like being
a photographer made me astronger photo editor and then vice
versa. Working as a photoeditor made me a stronger editorial
photographer as well. So I'mhoping that also working as a curator,
working as a writer, all thosethings kind of feed each other and
make the other things stronger.
(40:52):
What about when it's like withdeadlines? Like, does that just make
you even more crazy? Not thatyou're crazy, but, you know, like,
is it like, does it make itlike more crazier? Like, if you have
like a photo editorial thatlike, has a deadline, but maybe,
you know, you have this thingfor the film symposium coming up,
like.
Oh, yeah, I respect adeadline, actually. Deadlines. Having
(41:15):
a deadline is actually so muchmore helpful for me than like something
that's open ended. Yeah, ifsomething is open ended, I'm like,
I mean, I'll try to get to itas best as I can, but if there's
like a specific deadline oflike, okay, like, this is happening
on this date, we need it by4pm this date. Like, yes, I got you.
Okay, I can put that in mycalendar. I can put that in my planner.
(41:37):
I can, you know, like, I cankind of stack everything out based
on like, what I know mydeadlines are. But yeah, when something's
kind of open ended, if peopleare just like, oh, give it to me
whenever, then, whenever, it'sjust like, okay, so that's just not
happening, Right.
I can't stand that. I had afriend in town who was like, oh,
I'm gonna be in town Tuesdaythrough Thursday, when is good for
(41:58):
you to hang out? And I likereally snapped into like really thinking
like, oh, okay, Tuesday,Wednesday, Thursday, you know, instead
of like saying let's gettogether, let's get together soon,
you know, like, I love adeadline as well.
Yeah, you have something toplan around too. So it's like, you
know, like. So. Yeah, thatactually, it actually really helps
(42:18):
me like see stay balanced andfocused. So like having like multiple.
Even when they're likemultiple deadlines kind of stacking
up, like as long as like Ikind of know where the road is heading,
I'm like, okay, I can, I cando this.
Do you assign yourselfdeadlines and like, can you keep
your own deadline? A selfassigned deadline?
Yes, I do.
(42:38):
Wow, that's impressive.
Well, okay, so I don't alwaysadhere to those deadlines, but. But
I do set my own deadlines formyself because it just again, like,
if I have something to worktowards, like, it just makes it easier
to like kind of stay on track.Because like, for example, like I
put out a monthly newsletterfor black women directors.
(43:00):
Yeah.
And I've made it so it shouldcome out the first Friday of the
month at like 7am and soknowing that I have that to work
towards, like, kind of helpsme like keep things organized for
the most part. Sometimes Ihave had to say, okay, newsletters
come in a couple weeks latebecause life.
(43:21):
Yeah.
And this is not my full timejob. But yeah, for the most part
though, I do try to like setinternal deadlines for myself too.
I love that. That's reallycool that you can be. I try to set
internal deadlines and itnever happens. It's always better
when I have a friend that willsay, show me this in two weeks. And
I will be like, okay. Even ifshe's just over there like cooking
(43:42):
dinner and just made up somedeadline, I like really take it to
heart. I'm like, okay, twoweeks. Got it.
Right.
Do you have like a favorite film?
Ooh, like of all time or like.
Oh, maybe. Yeah, all time orlike top three, maybe any genre.
Oh man. Well, I can tell youmy letterbox. Top four.
(44:05):
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Oh yeah. So that's what I putin my top four. Cause it's really
hard to choose what's afavorite film. But I put in Heat
by Michael Mann. Cause MichaelMann's like one of my favorite directors
ever. Like love him downChicago. King moonlight by Barry
Jenkins.
(44:26):
Gorgeous.
Just. Cause yeah, that wholemovie is just like memorized. Like,
I just love that movie somuch. Eve's Bayou by Casey Lemons.
Just. Cause I. I revisit thatmovie a lot. Like, it's just so multilayered.
And then I. Oh, and thenKiller of Sheep by Charles Burnett.
(44:47):
Okay.
Because he's another one of myabsolute all time favorite filmmakers.
Are you a fan of Lifetime movies?
It depends. It depends on whatmy mood is. Because sometimes, like,
I'll watch a Lifetime movieand I'm like, okay, like, this happened.
But then I'll see, like, othermovies, and I'm like, okay, that
(45:09):
was ridiculous. But I washighly entertained the whole time.
Yes.
That's what I love about themso much. And my mother loves Hallmark
films.
Oh, my mom does too. She loves Hall.
Oh.
Like November through January,it just stays on Hallmark Channel.
My mom's like, I'm watchingChristmas in July right now. And
(45:31):
I'm like, oh, my gosh. It mademe wonder. I know that that's like
a TV movie, but I'm like, arethere black women directing these?
I know, like, Vivica Fox had aLifetime deal for a little bit, and
gosh, I can't think of hername right now, but from Beverly
Hills Housewives.
Oh, Garcelle. Yes. I thinkthey had.
Yeah, they were like, doingsome, like, Lifetime deals, but yeah,
(45:53):
it just made me. I don't knowwhat that genre is, but I think it
would be just. I call it justLifetime genre.
Yeah, it is like a very particular.
Yeah.
Oh, there are of black womendirectors making Lifetime movies,
right? Oh, actually there was.I think this was a Lifetime movie.
The. The Clark Sisters movie.
That was so good.
(46:14):
It was so good. And that wasby, well, black woman director, but
also a black woman directorfrom Detroit.
Oh, okay.
Christine Swanson.
Yes. Yeah, I believe so. Yeah.I think they directed an episode
of pd, Actually, Chicago pd.Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay, cool. I'm
gonna have to watch that one again.
(46:34):
Yeah, that was. Yeah, that wasa really good movie. And I actually
got a chance to talk to herabout that. We were on, like, a webinar,
like, when. Around the timethat the movie was first released.
Oh, cool.
Yeah, it was just, like,really cool that, like, she was able
to bring, like, a lot ofcultural specificity to that too,
specifically because, like,not just because, like, she's a black
(46:55):
woman, but also because, like,she's from Detroit as well. So she,
like, has, like, that kind ofcultural memory there that, like,
someone outside of Detroit orwho's like, not a black woman, frankly,
like, wouldn't quite understand.
Yeah.
And that's not like a badthing. Necessarily, it's not to say
that, like, you. You have tobe like, of the culture that's like
(47:18):
the subject of the movie thatyou're directing. But I think it
helps a lot too.
Do you have any aspirations?Direct a film?
Oh, yeah. People ask me that alot, actually.
Yeah, I'm sure.
I mean, so I've actually beenon a set before, like as a unit stills
photographer.
Right, right. Yeah.
(47:38):
And did you like that? I mean,it was, it was definitely a learning
experience. It was like apretty steep learning curve, I have
to be honest there. But. Butwhat, what that experience taught
me and what it made me wantreally appreciate even more than
I did before, that was like,just like, how, how many people it
(47:58):
takes to make one film? Andjust like, you know, there's multiple
departments and like, there'slike, there's, you know, multiple
teams within those departmentsand like, everyone has to, like,
kind of work in tandem and youhave the director kind of like guiding
the ship the whole time andlike, they have to make so many decisions
constantly. And so part of meis like, I don't know, do I have
(48:23):
the temperament for thatquestion mark? I don't know, like,
because, you know, like, it'snot like, you're not just doing like,
the artistic part of like, youknow, guiding performances and like,
you know, guiding the directorphotography, but it's like you're
also like, you know, yeah,like, talking to the costume designer,
talking to the set designer,talking to the producers, making
(48:45):
sure you're staying onschedule, like, you know, talking
to props and like, making surethat, like, you know, you have the
right model car. Because, youknow, the continuity person is telling
you like, hey, like, this caris from like 1970 and this is supposed
to be 1990, you know, so it'sjust like, I was like, wow, there's
like, even more than Irealized to like, making a movie.
(49:05):
So. So yeah. But then I alsosaw this, this video on. Was it Instagram
or TikTok? And now I can'tremember exactly where it was. So
apologies for not being ableto cite my sources properly. But.
But I saw this video and theywere saying, like, you know, as an
(49:28):
artist, like, as a creative,something you should be asking yourself
is like, what's something thatscares you creatively? And when I,
when I saw that, I was like,the thought of making a movie terrifies
me, so maybe that's somethingI need to lean into. That was like
my long winded answer saying,like, oh, I think I might want to
try making a film because Ithink about film so much anyway in
(49:52):
my own photography, so I wasthinking. But, yeah, that was something
that I realized when I wasthinking about what's something that
scares me creatively. And Iwas like, ooh, making a movie scares
me. So maybe I need to kind oflean into what's scaring me there.
I like the idea of maybe doingit as an exercise.
(50:12):
Yeah. Like, not trying tohave, like, any expectations of,
like. Yeah. Getting into, youknow, I'm gonna get into Sundance.
It's like, slow your roll.Just like. Yeah. Kind of do it as,
like, a thought exercise.Like, is this something that I can
do? First of all, it's like,do I. Again, do I have the temperament
for it? Like, maybe that isn'tmy medium, but, yeah, that is something
(50:34):
I would like to try my hand at.
Yeah. And there's people thatmake films like, like, over a span
of years, which is. Alwaysblows my mind because I'm so used
to, you know, we're working onthis film from, like, Monday through
Saturday, and then that's it.Then the film is done. But there's
people that, like, I knowfilmmakers who might work with an
(50:55):
actor, but they're like, oh,but the actor got married, so we're
gonna get back to this in alittle bit. And I'm like, what do
you mean? Like, what does thateven mean? Like, knock this out.
You know, and they just taketheir time. And, you know, Maybe
they're like 12 person crews,but I'm always impressed by folks
that do that. And then theyactually come up with, like, a finished
(51:16):
product, you know, somethinglike, doesn't your actor. Like, they
can't, like, cut their hair oranything? Like, how does that work?
But somehow they. They make itwork. Yeah.
Yeah. Which is like. Yeah,that's, like, fascinating to me,
too. Just like, how do youkeep that level of commitment going
over, like, that period oftime, too?
Yeah. What's like, some ofyour favorite? So, like, the Black
(51:43):
Harvest Film Festival. Like,are there any other, like, film festivals
that you enjoy that you, like,make sure that you go to?
Well, the ChicagoInternational Film.
Oh, sure, duh.
Yeah, I really like going tothat a lot. And then I've actually
been to Tribeca before, whichis, like, really? That was, like,
another really cool filmfestival to go to. I've actually
(52:07):
never been to Sundance, so Ireally wanted to.
I've never been either. Yeah,that would be fun.
But, yeah, I was trying tothink if there was anything else.
But those are. Yeah, those arethe ones that kind of, like, Immediately
stick out.
Is there. Oh, maybe therewould be like a black women directors
film festival. Have you everthought to do something like that?
Oh, yeah, you know, there'sactually. There's a Denton black
women Film Festival. I thinkit's like, Denton, Texas. Texas.
(52:31):
Texas. Okay. Oh, okay.
And so. Yeah, I know. Like,there's that one and then there's
like, oh, there's like this.This or this organization in LA called
not your daddy's films. And sothey don't focus on. They focus on
women and non binaryfilmmakers. It's not like specifically
like black women or women ofcolor, but, like, I think, like,
(52:53):
they're also doing like,really cool work too.
Oh, okay. Right on. So thenmaybe we don't need. You don't need
to do one because it's alreadybeing done.
Or I could do like, anotherone. Like, I don't have any qualms
about putting another one out there.
Right. You. But you are. Youdo want to do like more of the file
under horror, right? You wantto do that again?
Oh, definitely. Yeah. I reallywant to bring that to Chicago and
(53:16):
just like, have it be, youknow, here in my hometown and everything.
So, yeah, hopefully we canactually pull that off for this spooky
season.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I have to kind offinalize some details around that.
But yeah, hopefully I can dothat in Chicago very soon.
Randomly. Speaking of spookyseason. Spooky. Speaking of spooky
(53:38):
season, do you like haunted houses?
Actually, no. Even though Ilove horror movies, but, like, I've
actually, I went to, like, ahaunted house, like, kind of thing
when I was a kid and I waslike, this is crazy. I can't do,
like, my nerves are too badfor me. Yeah.
They are too much.
(53:58):
Like, it's one thing to seethe scary thing on a screen, but
it's another thing when it'slike someone jumps out at you in
real life and I'm like, whatare you doing?
Yeah, I'm so scary that evenFright Fest I do not like. Cause
they chase you at Frightfest, people.
Oh, they chase you down.
Have you gone to Frightfestival at Six Flags Great America?
Oh, no, I never been.
(54:19):
Yeah, they will chase you. Andthey, they bring in, like, special
effects makeup artists to,like, do people's face and everything.
What?
And they will, like, be in thelines. Like, there'll be like, all
these, like, ghosts andgoblins in the lines and they try
to, like, spook you. And I.That's another opportunity. I will
not go. I will not go becauseI Went one time just thinking, like,
(54:40):
oh, I mean, it's. What's the.Like, it's just fright fest. Like,
what is that? Just somecobwebs, like on a roller coaster.
But no, it was. It was nextlevel. Oh, my God. It was such next
level. I did not. I did notlike that at all.
I don't like the chasingthing. I'm like, oh, no. Slow your
roll down.
Yes. They had people chasing,and, like, they had these guys that
(55:04):
had, like, this weird makeup.It was just like. I can't even describe
it. Just like if you were sometype of, like, horror special effects
makeup artist, they just toldyou to go crazy. You go crazy. And
then they had knee pads on sothey would chase you and then, like,
slide on their knees so theymight, like, like, say something
like, slide in front of you.Like, they have a whole thing down.
(55:25):
Like, you know, these peopleare just enjoying there. They're
having the best time. But I amlike, oh, no. Oh, no. One time at
the time, I went. They scareda lady out of her funnel cake, and
her funnel cake dropped, andshe was not happy. She was not.
That's not funny.
But it's not funny. I was like.
(55:46):
Cause it was like a long line.
You know, when she was, like,eating with her kids, he's like,
slid past her. Oh, mygoodness. Oh, my goodness.
Oh, I'm trying not to laugh,because if that happened to me, I
would be so upset. But that's really.
I was too mad for her, too.
Cause I'm like, you know, y'all need to.
Need to quit playing up here.Y' all need to quit playing. Oh,
(56:08):
my God. So I have a lot ofrespect for the people who enjoy,
you know, Halloween and knowit's coming up, you know, spooky
season coming in. You know, Irespect y', all, but I bow out.
Right? Like, I won't be over there.
Yeah. But, you know, you didencourage me hearing you speak about
horror. I think, you know, ifwe have the foul under horror in
(56:30):
Chicago this month, you know,in October, coming up, I think I
will check it out. You know,I'll be amongst others. And I think
that would be, you know. Okay,nice. Oh, my gosh. Danielle. So,
like, where can we find moreinformation about you? We can visit
black women directors.
Yes. Blackwomendirectors co.Best place to find out more about
(56:55):
black women directors. Andthen my personal site is daniellescruggs.com
so you can find out more aboutme there as Great.
And then the Chicago Film Symposium.
Yes. We have a website forthat as well. So chicagofilmsymposium.com
and yeah, you can find outmore. And we have our second symposium
(57:16):
coming up on Saturday,November 1st.
That's gonna be wonderful. I'mlooking forward to that.
I'm really excited.
I'm really excited, too. Ilove that. Thank you so much for
coming in here, sharing yourinsights. And thank you so much for
putting a resource like BlackWomen directors together.
Oh, yeah. Well, like I said,thank you so much for having me.
(57:37):
And it's been really great totalk to you about any and everything
today. So, yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
Thank you. And thank you,Chicago. And we will see you soon.
This has been another episodeof Nosy af. I'm your host, Stephanie
Graham. What did you thinkabout today's conversation? I would
(57:58):
love to hear your thoughts.Head over to the Nosy AF website
for all the show notes relatedto this episode. You can also find
me on Instagram. TefanieGraham, what would you know? Or online@missgraham.com
where you can sign up for mynewsletter where I share exclusive
updates about my studiopractice as well as this podcast.
Until next time, y' all staycurious and take care. Bye, Sam.