Everything is Mutual Aid with Autumn Breon

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome and welcome back tonosey AF conversations about art,
activism and social change.Hi, I'm your host, Stephanie, and
I am so stoked to kick offseason seven with an incredible conversation.
Today I'm joined by LosAngeles based artist Autumn Breon.
Autumn's work is rooted inblack feminist praxis, historical

(00:21):
memory, and speculativefutures. Through performance, installation,
and public art, she createsspace of liberation and care, portals
into other realities byancestral technologies and maroon
ecologies bars. With abackground in aeronautics and astronautics
from Stanford University,Autumn even pushes her practice beyond

(00:43):
earth, exploring spatialfreedom in ways that truly expand
what art can be. Her work hasbeen featured at Hauser and Wirth
LACMA and the Oakland Museum.And this weekend, she's bringing
her visionary practice to theWalk the Block Artist Festival in
Seattle, Washington. Butfirst, she's bringing that same energy
right here into ourconversation. So as we do, let's

(01:07):
hit the theme music and getthis party started with Autumn. Vision
of a star with a mission inthe cause. What you're doing, how
you doing what you're doingand who you are Flex.
Yourself and press yourselfCheck yourself, don't.

(01:27):
Wreck yourself if you know methen you know that I'll be knowing
what's up.
Hey, Stephanie.
Graham is gonna nosey Autumn.Welcome to nosey af.
I'm so happy to be here.Thanks for having me.
I'm so glad to have you here.Autumn. You studied at Stanford.
Yes.
Super cool and super fancy.And I bring this up because I have

(01:49):
a neighbor kid, which I callall the kids in the neighborhood
neighbor kids because it just.It's, like, easy. And she is applying
to schools her mom is tryingto push her into, like, applying
to Harvard, Princeton,Stanford. The grades are there.
The usual suspects.
The usual suspects. And she issaying everybody that goes there
is boring. Everybody's in poloshirts. And I'm like, autumn is not

(02:14):
in a polo shirt.
Yeah.
I'm like, wow, she's so youngto have that thought. Because it's
20, 25. You would think thatshe would see, you know, artsy, as
you say, like, artsy, eclecticfolks everywhere in, like, all sorts
of professions.
Yeah.
But I don't know. She doesn't.Yeah. And I'm like, aw.

(02:39):
So if you're listening, hey,I'm Autumn, and I did go to Stanford,
and I don't wear polo shirtsevery day. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's
so interesting. And there's somany parts of that that I'm thinking
about as you share that withme. But I can speak to my experience

(03:02):
at Stanford. I'm so gratefulthat that's where I learned and that's
where I went to college. Yes,I did start on a completely different
track. My degree's inengineering in aeronautics and astronautics.
But so much of what I got fromStanford was learning how to think
like an engineer. First ofall, reinforcing how to think and

(03:26):
work like an entrepreneur. Andjust an incredible network of friends,
friends that have becomefamily, incredible professors, like
folks that just helped shapeme in addition to what I was learning
when I was in class, you know,and a part of why Stanford was a
good fit for me. At the end ofthe day, I think I was choosing between

(03:50):
Stanford and Yale and Ivisited both campuses but, and I
think Yale is a fantasticinstitution too. I have plenty of
friends that loved Yale. Butwhat made Stanford a fit for me was
that I was surrounded by somany other people that had done these
extraordinary things and werestudying and doing extraordinary

(04:12):
things in school, but wereincredibly well rounded and just
interesting people. So likeyou end up having like a roommate,
somebody that lives down thehall that's like working on a cure
for cancer and may also justbe really great at rugby or you know,

(04:34):
draws anime really well ormakes music and is studying to be
an architect. Like I, I, Ithink that's so special about an
environment like that. Andit's a part of what's so important
to me about the folks that I'mreally close to now. Like, I really
love learning from my peersand being around people that inspire

(04:54):
me. And I, I really lookforward to when we get to a point
as a people, as a societywhere there isn't a stereotype or
a typical look for, for anengineer, for a venture capitalist,
for whatever, and wherethere's the expectation to be well
rounded. Because I, I, I thinkthat when, when you try to put yourself

(05:19):
into, or fall into these silosof like I'm a math and science person
or I'm a liberal arts person,like I, I think all of that is bullshit.
Like none of that reallyexists. All of us, all of us are
creative. There's this, thisreally important artist leader, Jackie
Sykes, one of the founders ofSt. Elmo's Village here in la, which

(05:41):
is this artist community witha super rich history. And her late
husband, peace be upon him,Roderick Sykes, had this incredible
statement. He would say, youwere created, therefore you can create.
Yes, I love that you may not.
Be a visual artist as a fulltime job, but I guarantee you that
as a human being you arecreative. And we will, we would all

(06:04):
do so much better in ourfields if we recognized creativity
being a necessity in order foranything to work. Well, if we recognize,
like, yeah, there's, like,numeracy and mathematics all around
us, you may not be a master atit, you may not be a mathematician,
but you're gonna use math. Wejust have to understand that, like,
we deserve to learn in. Inmany different ways in front of many

(06:27):
sorts of people. Like, it's soboring to just, like, fit into a
box. And. And that's notnatural. There's nothing organic
about that.
Yeah, I hate that. I hate thatwhole box stuff. Yes. See, Briana.
That's her name. You better go apply.
Yeah, Briana, please apply.
You're not gonna be like, I'm gonna.
Meet you one day.
Yeah. She was just like, I'mgonna get sucked into having a family,

(06:51):
and then I'll have to, like.It was just like. I'm like, where
are you getting this from?I've been doing research about proms,
like, prom sendoffs and, youknow, like, in black culture and
all that, and brown culture,too, or brown folks, too. And I was.
I've been reading also ourkind of people. It's like Lawrence
Otis Graham. Yeah. And inthere, he speaks about Jack and Jill

(07:15):
and at, like, a certain point,how it started to become more progressive,
he said. And so I think abouther because she was a part of Jack
and Jill, and I'm like, oh,that's so interesting that you still
seem to have this, like, veryboxed in point of view, because there's
all sorts of people doing allsorts of things that look all sorts

(07:35):
of ways. So.
Yeah. Yeah.
I just thought that was interesting.
So. So I was a debutante, andthat surprises people sometimes,
like, which I think isstrange. But, yeah, I was a debutante.
Oh, my gosh.
I'm still friends with folksthat were. That were in my debutante
cohort in my, um. I don't knowwhat the Jack and Jill experience

(08:00):
is in 2025. I'm. I'm not amember of Jack and Jill. Yeah. Yeah.
Like, I, I, I was morefamiliar with those types of social
clubs, like, when I was, like,a debutante, like, in high school
and things like that. Um, but,like, when I think about if I had
children and even, like, mynieces that are in my life now and,
and what I want them to seeand be around and how I want them

(08:22):
to learn.
Mm.
I, I love the fact that theyare seeing adults that are doing
incredible things and thathopefully their norm will be very
different. From those beforethem. So where like they, I, I hope
they know that like, yeah,somebody with a degree in engineering

(08:44):
can have bleached eyebrows and tattoos.
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.And also please, please have bleached
eyebrows and tattoos. Yeah.
Like I just think, and it justmakes me sad when like, like I would
never want to impose on ayoung person to think that success

(09:06):
is based on how well youperform capitalism and how well you
participate in capitalism.Like I understand that's the reality
in which we live in. But likea sense of imagination and like self
determination, I think thoseare, are such important traits that
we can instill in young folkswhere create their own paths. Like

(09:29):
that's the goal, like the goalisn't for my kid to, if I had a kid,
I don't even know if I wouldwant them to go to Stanford. Yeah,
that's not like that. That'snot my place. I want them to find
a place that's a good fit forthem like Stanford was to me. But,
but who knows what that mightbe? I, but I would never want to
tell them, hey, you will onlybe successful if you, if you take

(09:49):
one of these jobs and stay inschool, lodging up and make this
amount of money. Like I wouldwant them to be happy, healthy, creative
and maybe even come up with ajob that I've never even heard of
before. That's brand new.
Absolutely. Yeah. And eventhat like going into any of these
things, like her thinking, oh,if she wants to be an engineer, that

(10:10):
that means that she's going tohave that she's going to end up looking
a certain way. You know, shedoesn't want to change. It's like
that's not going to happen.Like you are who you are, like you're
into what you're into, period.That's it.
You know, I wish I had learnedthat at a younger age. Cause I know
what that kind of pressurelooks and feels like. I know what
it, I know how it's difficultto have that kind of self determination

(10:31):
when you're young because it'san anomaly. I completely get that.
But I really wish that I hadunderstood that and mastered it younger.
The youth, you know, they'realways up to something, these young
people.
I have so much hope and I'm soexcited for this next generation
because I think that they'regoing to learn like some of the things
that we're talking about. Ithink they're gonna learn that and
clock stuff so quickly.They're gonna go further so much

(10:54):
more quickly.
Yeah, it's like not even gonnabe a thing. I remember seeing this
fun Instagram reel where itshows, like, this school bully, and
he's like, give me your lunchmoney. Give me your lunch money.
And all the kids are like,wait, you don't have lunch money?
They're like, if you don'thave lunch money, just say that.
Like, you don't need to, like,get in our face.
Right? Like, you have mutualaid. We can pay each other. That's

(11:16):
what I think kids these dayswould probably say. I, again, I don't
know, but that's what I liketo imagine. Maybe I'm romanticizing
it.
Yes. That just made me laughso much. So I'm like, yeah, I feel
like these kids would totallyjust be like, dude, don't, like,
try to rob us. Like, yeah,just come in the food line and we'll
get you right. Oh, my gosh.Well, you know, it's a fun segue.

(11:37):
Thinking of mutual aid,because, you know, you have your
project Care Machine, which isa vending machine that has traveled
that has a bunch of toolsavailable for free for black women.
Tampons, condoms, edge controllip gloss. Where did that project
come from?

(11:57):
So, yes, the Care Machine. Soeveryone can use the Care Machine.
Its origin came from Care Machine.
Sure, sure. Thank you. Yes.
So I asked black women, withmy art, I'm always posing some kind
of question or there's somekind of prompt, and the data I collect,
the responses inform theartwork. So for the Care Machine,

(12:19):
I asked black women to tell mewhat items provide care or what reminds
them of care. And those areall stocked in the Care machine,
and the machine isretrofitted, and I program everything
to be free of charge. So it'sproof. It's meant to be proof of
the fact that everybody winswhen we center and start with black

(12:43):
women.
Yeah.
So the. The items are thingslike tampons, pads, Narcan, morning
after pills from Julie,abortion pill resources, Edge Control
lip gloss books. So these areitems that black women asked for,
but everyone, including blackwomen, can take what they need from

(13:06):
the Care machine, andeverybody's going to benefit from
it. Like when somebody picksup some lube, condoms, Narcan, like,
that's something that you andthe people around you benefit from.
Absolutely. Yeah. I rememberwhen we were talking, you know, just
in preparation for ourconversation today, we spoke about,
like, everybody should haveNarcan on them.

(13:28):
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's such an important thing.
And. And. And we think thatway about items that we carry on
our person already. Like, ifyou have Gum or a lighter or something
like that. It's not only foryou to benefit from. If somebody
needs light or wants a pieceof gum or something, it's something

(13:49):
that's meant to be shared. SoI think we're accustomed to that
kind of community care already.
Yeah, that's so true. When Iwas starting out in film, I would
be like a PA and you wouldalways have to have things on you
just in case somebody neededit. So, like pens, pencils, box cutters,
a lighter, you know, like.Cause you always wanted to be that.

(14:10):
Go to person like, oh, doesanybody have this? Yes, I do. You
know, but where did you. Wheredid the idea come from to start the
care machine?
Mm. Mm. The idea for the caremachine came from research that I
was doing on Bernice Robinson.She's a black woman that was in South
Carolina, and she was abeautician. And after she went to

(14:36):
a workshop at the HighlanderSchool in Tennessee, she started
teaching folks how to read andwrite from her hair salon so that
they could pass literacytests, tests that black folks used
to have to take to prove thatthey could read and write in order
to vote. So the strategy wasto train folks in secret, teach them

(14:59):
how to read and write so thatthey could pass these tests and then
be registered. Her studentspassed. And a part of what was so
intentional and unique abouther pedagogy was that instead of
her using like. Like gradeschool or primary school readers
that children would use tolearn how to read, she used objects

(15:22):
and items that adults werealready interacting with and familiar
with to teach them how toread. So, like, cans, the backs of,
like, canned food and Searscatalogs, things like that. So that
there was dignity in herapproach to teaching and learning.
Right. Instead of getting,like, a cardboard book with an apple

(15:42):
on it.
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah.Which. Which again, like, it makes
so much sense. Like, that's anintelligent approach. That's really
simple and intuitive, and Ithink that's a part of the beauty
of it and why it worked sowell. And the model scaled to other

(16:03):
beauty salons in the southwhere they were teaching folks how
to read and write, mobilizing,organizing within their hair salons.
It was. It was completelyhidden in plain sight because most
folks didn't expect that kindof work to be happening in a place
where women got their hair done.
Right. That's so interestingthat that was happening because,

(16:23):
yeah, like, in a beauty salon,I get stories all the time, but not
necessarily, like, a directlesson. What Ms. Robinson was doing.
Right, like here, reading andWriting, but I'll extract lessons
from stories I'll hear in thebeauty salon. So it's sort of not
direct learning, but listeninglearning or something.

(16:43):
Yeah, yeah. Like we're alwayslearning something. Like we're being
enriched. That's the, that'sthe special kind of like muscle of
hair salons. I think thatthere's so much more that's happening
while adornment, whilebeautification, while that is happening.

(17:04):
And I have a hair and nailsalon in my studio where I. Oh, really?
So, yeah, yeah. So I'msurrounded by the sounds and smells
of hair salon all the timewhen I'm working. So I think that
probably contributed to theinspiration too. But when I was just
thinking about like, what is,what's like a mechanism for care

(17:27):
to be delivered the same wayit was from Bernice Robinson's hair
salon. What's like anotherkind of mechanism that people are
already familiar with. Likeyour muscle memory knows how to interact
with it, but where care can beprovided, dispensed en masse. And
I thought of a vending machinebecause most folks know how to interact

(17:48):
with.
Yes, absolutely.
There's not a lot of trainingthat's necessary.
Right? Yeah. And we all knowwe can just walk up to a vending
machine and we can getsomething from it and be like, oh,
there it is. Let me go seewhat they have in there. Chips or
water, whatever. I love theidea. I think it's really cool. And
it's traveled all over, right?
It has, it has. We were inChicago last summer. Actually, we

(18:09):
stopped in Chicago during thednc that was with Sky Art for this
really special day longfestival that they had that was during
the DNC. We were there withthem and with Four Freedoms. We've
been in Kansas City, we'vebeen in D.C. on the National Mall.
We're getting ready to head toSeattle with the care machine next

(18:30):
month.
Yeah, that's very cool. Andthen like, so you have. Is it your
hair salon? Are you a hairsalon stylist in your studio or is
it. You guys like share space.Oh, very cool.
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, I have a friend whohas a studio in Arizona. I think

(18:51):
she might have moved out ofthere, but it was in a strip mall.
And I just thought that thatwas so smart. It was like free parking.
So I love this idea of likealso sharing space, like in a hair
salon, nail salon, because alot of those spaces, they have room,
like so if you're like anartist, you know, you could be like
hey. And there's always peoplein there, so you always have company.
I love that. Yeah.

(19:12):
And that's important for me.Like, that's, that, that totally
depends on, on the artist. Butsometimes I like a little bit of
activity around me, likeambient sound and, and real people.
And I, I, I live in, well, Iwork in Inglewood, used to live in,
in Englewood. It was alsoreally important for me for the place

(19:33):
that I work from to be southof the 10 Freeway in LA.
Okay.
And those are a lot of. Sothat's where a lot of historically
black neighborhoods andcommunities are in Los Angeles. South
Central is south of Central.The 10 freeway is kind of like that

(19:54):
border in LA. So that wasimportant to me. And also to be somewhere
where I can know my neighborsand interact with them. So there's
like a Jamaican place that'son the same block where I can walk
down and get patties.Sometimes, like, I see folks walking
their kids over to theTaekwondo studio that's in the other
direction. And the other smallbusiness owners in the neighborhood.

(20:17):
I know. And that's reallyimportant for me for a place that
I work from. Like, thosethings are on my list of non negotiables.
Absolutely. I love that somuch because then it makes it like
a community. And then you getto see cute kids in their karate
uniforms, which is so dope. I know.
I think it's incredibly cute.Sometimes they're so tidy. Yes. Like,

(20:37):
I didn't know they made karatecostumes as small.
I know, right?
Uniforms, right?
Yeah. Uniform.
Yeah.
We don't know. Yeah, that'sokay. It's good. Oh, my gosh. I.
So then, because one of myquestions for you was why you have,
like, some other projects thatare, like, surrounded around the
hair salon. Yeah. So did your,did the hair salon in your studio,

(21:04):
like, inspire that as well?Like, seeing that, or have you always
just been into hair salons?
I think it's a little bit of both.
Okay.
So I grew up going to the hairsalon with my grandmother, with my
aunts, like that. That wasjust a part of my routine with them.
Obviously, a hair salon isclose to me, so that's always on

(21:29):
my mind. But protective style,the performance that I did, that
was inspired by Bernice Robinson.
Okay.
So that body of work reallystarted with her. The first piece
was really the performancethat was basically imagining that

(21:49):
hair salons are still hiddenin plain sight and that these hairstyles
that we get look great, butthey're also what's been protecting
us from all of the violenceand harm that's in the world when
you step outside of the hairsalon. So I think a whole body of
work just grew out of thatbecause then I started making sculptures

(22:11):
that looked like hair grease,and I had this juju from hair salons
and. And then the caremachine, obviously. So I think I'm
just inspired by BerniceRobinson, for sure, by my studio
practice, but also theprivilege I've had of being in third
spaces that were for and byblack women. That felt really important

(22:36):
for me to monumentalize, tocreate workaround, because I've benefited
from it so much and I knowit's so important to us. It's something
that I want to preserve. So Ithink the whole body of work came
from a combination of things.
Yeah. I think when I think ofthe protective style and care machine

(23:03):
or you had another project, isit the. It was like luxury.
Is that.
It's the blue.
Leisure lives.
Leisure. Yes. Thank you.Leisure lives.
The blue.
I got the L. Yes, the blue.And your performance in that. And
protective style is alsoperformance. When you started to

(23:24):
make work, did you start with performance?
Mm, performance andassemblage. I would say that those
were my starting points. Anearly piece that I did, I worked
with this denim company and Ibasically used recycled denim and

(23:47):
recycled furniture and madelike a little projector. Projected
a video about the history ofdenim and how it's actually like
super black.
Okay. You might have noticedthat we had a little lawnmower situation
coming our way, becauseapparently lawn care companies just

(24:10):
do their jobs on schedules.Like, how dare they? Didn't they
see Autumn and I speaking? Sohere's the deal. We're going to circle
back to Autumn's work withperformance and assemblage towards
the end of our conversation.But first, I would like to invite
you to check out the somethingspecial that I host called Artist
Admin Hour. Artist Admin Houris a weekly co working session for

(24:33):
artists, filmmakers, culturalstewards and soft life strategists
to tackle the boring butessential stuff with, of course,
good company. So basically,it's hard, right? Doing admin work
can be annoying, but sometimeswe need a ritual to get it done with
glam grace and zero grind. Sowhether you're sending invoices,

(24:54):
applying for their residency,wrangling receipts, or finally cleaning
up your desktop, this is yourbodily doubling space to show up
and get things done. Bringyour to do list. Bring yourself.
We meet every Wednesdaystarting October 1st from 7 to 9
Central. You can find all thedetails about this@artistadminhour.com

(25:14):
and of course, there will be alink in the show notes. All right,
now let's get back to theconversation with Autumn because
she has a controversialstatement to make. Dun, dun, dun.
I'm gonna say somethingcontroversial. I'm working through
it. Black excellence needs anew definition.

(25:37):
Okay.
And I hate hate and hatelimited, unhealed descriptions of
black excellence.
Do you like the term black excellence?
I don't think I do the waythat it's typically used. I do not
like it. I do not like it.
Yeah.

(25:58):
Because I am more interestedin. I think there is more complexity,
more humanity and black mediocrity.
Yeah.
In order for us to exist, inorder for us to be validated, we
should not have to be perfect,excellent at all times and fit into

(26:21):
what's most likely a cookiecutter description that is based
on white supremacy, a functionof white supremacy, and most likely
respectability. I think that'sso boring. And there's nothing excellent
about that. Now, if. If blackexcellence means healthy, mentally,

(26:42):
emotionally, physically,loved, cared for, caring.
Yeah.
Shifting a paradigm, that'sexcellent. I think that's great.
But some of these otherdefinitions of black excellence,
like, we. We might as welljust say, congratulations, welcome
to the talented tenth. You passed.

(27:03):
You know, I think about thiswhen I think I love reality tv. Like
the Housewives. I've beenwatching the show, like, Love and
Huntsville, and they're alwaystalking about.
What's it called?
It's called Love andHuntsville, Alabama. Huntsville,
Alabama. Yeah.
Wow.
And it started out with threecouples who were rebuilding Huntsville,
Alabama. And you're like,great. We get to see these countries.

(27:26):
All they. All six peoplerebuilded all of Huntsville. Three
black couples.
Yes, they were contractors.
Contractors.
And they were like, they.They, like, bought, like, a certain
area, and they were trying tomake, like, affordable housing, Right.
So they had a plan, but theywould never get along. And then all
of a sudden, one of thecouples had a side chick. Called

(27:48):
the side chick, a peasant onthe TV show. Then it brought her
out. And then the wife isdivorcing the man. Right. And it's
like, it's totally gone awayfrom them rebuilding now. It's just
become a complete disaster.But they're always talking about,
we're excellent. You know,we're building businesses. We have
a house. And it's like, no,you guys are cheating on your wives.

(28:09):
Your wives won't leave you.They're not having confidence. This
is like. And then the one ladywho did have the boldness to leave,
you know, they're doggingaround like, it's just, like, a mess.
Like, it is not blackexcellence at all. It's not black
excellence at all. And I feellike I'm so deep into it, just, like,
of watching the show where,like, now I'm like, okay, let me
keep watching. Like, it'slike, I'm a little guilty pleasure.

(28:30):
But I was invested.
I was really excited aboutseeing these contractors build houses
in north Huntsville in thebeginning, you know?
Yeah.
But. Yeah, I don't know.Something about this whole, like,
excellence, you know, if yousay, like, mediocrity, that's probably
better because then theybecome more relatable. Right. Like,

(28:52):
is mediocrity more relatable?Not that I don't want us to be relatable
to that TV show. Like, that's.I'm not trying. I'm just. I was just
sharing that show. But I don'tknow. The mediocrity. Is mediocrity
what we should strive for? Idon't know.
I. I guess. I guess maybe whatI'm thinking is that no one should
be on a pedestal, and thereshould not be one. One way of being

(29:14):
that we all strive for. Like,I think that's where the danger is.
You know what I mean? Like,yeah, and. And, like, with the mediocrity
bit, like, should we. Shouldwe strive for mediocrity? No, but
I think that we can tellstories about it. Like, I don't like
the idea of there being thispressure to perform that we put on

(29:36):
black folks, where it's like,if you're in the spotlight, if you're
creating something, if you areleading, it has to be about black
excellence or you need torepresent some kind of excellence.
Because, one, it's like you'reperpetuating the stereotype that
all blackness is not excellentand that this type of blackness is

(29:56):
an anomaly. 1. Like, that'sperpetuating something that's not
right. Like, I don't know thenumbers, but there are lots of black
folks that own businesses thatare in construction that are, you
know, like, we don't need toperpetuate that. This is something
that's so rare and unheard of,one. But, like, there's just so much
beauty in. In the mundane.

(30:17):
Yeah. Now, that is true. Now,I do agree with that. That is a fact.
I love that. And there's somany artists that, like, always make
work about the mundane. Themundane. You know, we write in our
artist statement. I look atthe mundane.
Right, right. But it's. Butcan. Can we reframe that? Like, There
doesn't have to be a binary, Iguess, where something has to be
mundane or excellent. But canwe acknowledge that excellence exists

(30:39):
in the mundane?
Yes. And just be.
Yeah, I like that.
Excellence exists in the mundane.
If you want to think about itlike logically. Logically, if you
are a black person and you arestill alive, you are breathing, you

(31:01):
exist in this day and age,everything that your ancestors had
to have survived for you to behere, and the fact that against the
will of the state and all ofthese systems designed to harm you
as a black person, the factthat you are living, that's excellence.
Like, that's something that wehave to celebrate. We shouldn't have
to wait for like some kind oflike made up expectation to be met

(31:24):
in order to celebrate it. I,like, I think we need to celebrate
black existence. Like that's a celebration.
Yeah.
Not, not reaching somewhatever and then being deemed black
Excellence. Like you're,you're alive, you're here.
Yeah.
That's saying something.
And that puts so much pressureon you. The way you're putting it

(31:44):
just like takes the pressureoff and just allows us to have a
good time.
Yes. Yeah, we've earned that.We've earned that momentum.
Absolutely. We have earned tohave a good time. I like the mundane
in excellence. Can we find theexcellence in the mundane? Yeah,
yeah. That's another tote bagnext to our. Next to our everything

(32:06):
is mutual aid bag.
Yes.
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I lovethat. Yeah. Okay, so, yeah, we have
that. Yeah, don't putpressure. You know what, there needs
to be more TV shows then andmore art about that, I think. You
know, instead of the wholelike Essence, the like Ebony cover

(32:26):
where it would be like, youknow, the light skinned wife and
the dark skinned husband withtheir kids and like one's a lawyer,
one's a doctor and look atthem being excellent, you know. And
then there needs to be like,you know, here's just someone who
they run, you know, they liketeach at a school and their husband
might be a doctor. I don'tknow. I don't know. But doesn't have

(32:47):
to be. So, you know, like thedoctors and lawyers are like the
cream of the crop, you know,but there needs to be like more of
Cream of the Crops.
And that's. Yeah, I like, wetalk about like storytelling art
wise. That's what was specialabout Insecure about Atlanta.

(33:10):
Yeah.
These were stories aboutrelationship shit, being an 8 shit
person sometimes, or all ofthe strange things that happen when
you decide to try a differentbarber. You know, like, those are
boring, everyday kind ofthings, but yet they. There's so
much like comedy, like,there's so much beauty sometimes

(33:33):
like trauma and shit thatcould be packed into these. These
experience that are typicallydeemed mundane.
Sure, yeah. You know, yeah,yeah, I like it. I'm trying to think
if I had anything else to sayaround that, but I feel like it's
just. We could just go in acircle about it, be like, trying

(33:54):
to think of, like, more likemundane examples, you know, so, listener,
if you have any mundaneexamples, like, share them with us.
Back to the care machinereally quick. You know, I'm just
curious, like, the idea of thecare machine. How does that show
up for you personally, like,in your work or daily practices?
You know, is it like a. Is itlike personal, political? Like both,

(34:17):
you know, like, what does, youknow, care machining, like, as, like
a person look like?
Ah, yeah, yeah. I. I thinkthat the ethos of the care machine
is very much a part of how Itry to navigate the world personally
and politically. So I'm anabolitionist. I believe in care instead

(34:45):
of harm and building systems,participating in systems that normalize
that. And I think thatabolition is about the prison industrial
complex. But abolition isalso, I think, when you carry Narcan
on your person or if somethinglooks off, knowing that you can stick

(35:10):
around and make sure thatsomebody is safe. You know, I have
like a pod of folks that Icare for and that care for me. So.
One of my good friends juststarted her MFA program and was being

(35:32):
followed by public safety,public safety officials on campus.
They asked her to prove thatshe's a student, unfortunately, what
we're accustomed to.
Wow.
I said, hey, keep me on thephone. Who's there with you? Are.

(35:53):
Are. Are you getting somethingso that you can record? Okay, you
have to get off the phone now.Your phone's about to die. Call me
back when you get to thisplace, okay? Are you safe now? Let's
make a plan for tomorrow. Didyou drink some water? Are you breathing
right now? You know, like, I.I think there are ways that, that
we check in with each otherwith the goal of defunding, of ending

(36:18):
the prison industrial complex,of not having a need for prisons,
but also with the goal ofsurviving this day and knowing that
somebody that I love is safeand cared for, knowing that there
are tools so that that cancontinue even if I'm not there in
person, making sure that thepeople that love me can do that for

(36:39):
me when I need it. Like, Ithink those are some of the Ways
that care and abolition showup personally, politically and in
everyday life.
If you were a antisocialperson, lonely person, or don't really
like people, how could youshow care for others? You think?
Mm. If you are an antisocial person.

(37:02):
Yeah.
How can you show care for others?
Um, yeah. Cause at least howwe're speaking about it, like caring
for each other as people, youknow, humans. So what if you don't
like humans?
Yeah. Yeah. But you are a human.
Yes. But you are a human. Yes.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think itdepends on what your gift is and

(37:24):
what your interest is. Sothat's something that I really love
about time banking and carebanking. So it's this concept where
you can like participate in agroup with other people, um, and
folks make deposits andwithdrawals. I've done it just with

(37:45):
a spreadsheet before. But youhave something that whatever you
have to offer. So say likeyou're able bodied and you walk your
dog already. You can walksomebody else's dog if they need
it.
Okay.
That might be your offering.And then you need to take like a
withdrawal or something. Itmight be like, hey, I, I know I'm

(38:06):
having surgery. Like, I knowI'm having my fibroids taken out.
I'm not gonna feel likecooking. But I have this link for
if people wanna contribute. Sothat food can be like sent to my
house during the weeks thatI'm recovering or whatever. Right?
Yeah, yeah.
You may not interact with anyof those people in person, but if
you have like 15 bucks thatyou can like drop in, that covers,

(38:27):
you know, somebody's meal,you're caring for somebody else,
you're contributing.
Yeah.
And that's like a deposit thatyou're making.
Yeah. And I was also thinkinglike somebody could do like simple
manners, like hold the dooropen for someone or you know, like
no problem and like keep itmoving. Okay, that's good. Because
you know there's people outhere that just don't want to be bothered,

(38:48):
but they want to do something.
Absolutely. And that's why,like it's your gift. Like, what's
your gift? What's yourinterest? Your interest may not be
interacting with people.
Yeah.
But if you're still interestedin caring for people, if you are
really good at proofreading,there might be something that you
can edit for somebody thatneeds some support.
Yup. You right. You right.Yeah, I love that. That's really

(39:08):
good. I want to like switch tolike your practice a little bit more.
Like in terms of yourperformance work, you, your performances
that I've seen, They're justso elaborate. They have, you know,
you have, like, bands, youhave dancers. Everybody's, like,
dressed in the same wardrobe.The set design, you know, like, you'll

(39:29):
have everything is thoughtabout. It makes me think of, like,
working on a film set.
Yeah.
What is that preparation,like, for you? Are you working alone?
Like, do you take time tostructure it out? You know, do you
have casting calls? Like, ifyou could just give, like, a little
rundown of what that lookslike in process. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(39:53):
We're in that process withperforming a piece that we've done
before. Protective style,actually rehearsing and getting ready
to perform that again. So ittypically starts with the research.
I'm typically doing extensiveresearch as I'm creating the concept.

(40:13):
So coming up with whatever theperformance the sculpture will be
depends on the medium. But ittypically starts with some kind of
research. And then once thatgets me to the concept, it works
for me to break things downinto smaller pieces to execute. Right.

(40:38):
So if I know, okay, I see theperformance now, I know that I am
going to need music. Like, Iknow music is a part of it. What
instruments am I gonna need?What's what? Let me make the set
list for what I know. We'regonna have to rehearse. Okay. Where's
movement gonna be? How manydancers am I imagining? You know,

(41:01):
just, like, breaking it downinto smaller parts. And then literally
it just goes back to kind of,like engineering. Like, then there's
a Gantt chart that just. Whathas to get done by when. That works
for me and my team, where wehave, like, a bible that we can go
from for where we are eachweek leading up to the performance,

(41:21):
the exhibition opening,shipping the work, whatever it is.
And then that's what we goback to, to check where we are anytime
we're meeting or interactingwith each other.
I was just thinking as youwere talking. Cause I love spreadsheets
and Gantt charts, and it makesme wonder, like, there needs to be
like, a pool, like a shareddrive of templates. Yeah. Like, okay,

(41:45):
if I just, like, all right, soI have just, for example, with this
podcast, I have my spreadsheetof all who I want, who's coming,
and then, like, can movethings around. What if you were like,
oh, I wanna start a podcast.Like, go to the folder, the share
folder. Then it would be like,guest podcast. You know, it's just
like, everything can beblanked out and all that kind of

(42:08):
stuff. Obviously, like, it'sjust clean. And we just all share
Spreadsheet templates.
Yes, yes. And again, like,that's some of what we do already.
Yeah.
I've gotten so much advice,referrals, templates from other artists
that have mentored me, artiststhat are peers, and I do the same

(42:30):
thing with other folks, youknow, like. And I think that's mutual
aid. I think that's careful.You're saving. You're. You're giving
the gift of accurateinformation, and you're saving someone
from the time the fuck ups.The. The extra energy that could
be spent on something. Like,you're. You're kind of, like, saving

(42:51):
that and helping them get to adestination a little bit more quickly,
more efficiently. That's caring.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And inyour performances with the dance,
do you dance on your own? Doyou choreograph your own pieces?
Many of them. I do. I've alsoworked with really talented movement
directors.
Okay.
Caitlin B. Jones is a reallytalented movement director that I

(43:13):
love working with. She wasworking as a curator in Kansas City
and is actually in Los Angelesnow. I think she's so talented as
a curator, as a movementdirector. Oh. Oh, my goodness. Her
podcast and her project iscalled the Black Ordinary.
Oh, I love that. I need toknow her.

(43:35):
Yeah. I'm gonna put y' all intouch. Y' all need to know each other.
Okay. Thank you.
But, yeah, yeah, I, I, I. WhenI collaborate with someone and there's
a shared language that we canget to and where we get to use that
language, I typically continueworking with them.
Yeah, that makes sense. I lovedance and I love to dance, but I

(43:59):
don't. It's like a hobby, youknow, it's like, not a thing that
I've thought to put in mypractice. But I've noticed that you
have a lot of dance, so Ididn't know if you were, like, a
dancer if you dance on yourown. You know, I was just curious
about dance or, sorry,movement in your practice.
Yeah, I grew up dancing.
Okay.
Ballet modern, like, middleschool, high school, and I did some

(44:23):
dance in college, so. And, youknow, I think that. That I'm so glad
that I did dance at a youngage. It's like engineering, where
it's a way of thinking thatyou can reuse even if you're not
in the studio or on the stage.And it's such a big part of my expression
and a part of the art that hasinspired me and that I'll make references

(44:47):
to sometimes. So, like, one ofmy teachers danced with the Alvin
Ailey Company, and I grew upseeing Alvin Ailey every year with
my family. So the kind ofstorytelling that Alvin Ailey did,
especially in Revelations,where he was using negro spirituals
and using an environment,sonic building that was familiar

(45:11):
to him and then addedchoreography to it, like, I just
thought that was such a geniusapproach. And it's a lot of what
I do with how I try to tellstories. I think that's a part of
why dance is such a big partof my practice. But I don't call
myself a dancer because I haveso much respect for dancers and I'm
not dancing every day,performing every day, you know, like,

(45:33):
it's not like I was when I,when I was like in high school, but
dance is definitely a big partof my practice.
Movement that's cool that youcan see, like, oh, what instruments
will I need? Like whatmovements that you could see? All
those things.
I have to give myself the timeand the space to think about it,

(45:55):
picture, to receive theinformation. So like, whatever I'm
reading, researching, orwhatever, have the concept and then
like translate the informationinto something visual. And that translation
part is where I'm thinking ofthe instruments, the bodies, where
they're situated, the colorpalette, the sounds, the, the things
like that. And just kind oflike building that into my process,

(46:18):
knowing, hey, this is a timeperiod where I'm focusing on that
and what I want to have at theend is like this kind of list or
whatever is really liberatingfor me.
Yeah, I love that we have likesome parallels in that way. One thing
in your work, you. Your workoften talks about portals to other
realities. It might have beenin protective style. You were in

(46:39):
an auditorium or like in anenclosed space, but there's like
an outdoor piece where you'rein the car. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
you called the car, like, Ican't remember, but it was like the
mothership. The mothership,but it was a car, you know. And so
I just am like interested inthat kind of language of like portals
to other realities. Like whereyou'll say like portal esoterica,

(47:01):
you know, using that kind of language.
Yeah, yeah.
To like, to talk about, likeyou'll use this other language that
might mean like mothership iscar, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.I embrace a lot of lexicon that's

(47:23):
inspired by science fiction.
Uh huh.
Speculative world building.And I like to play around with that
in a humorous kind of waywhere. And I think that's a great
example that you brought upcalling a lowrider a spaceship the
mothership. Because I Like tothink that.

(47:47):
We.
Can access these other worlds,and we do it already, but it's a
part of our everyday life.It's not something that has to be
far away in the future or in adifferent place. It's something that's
a part of what we already doand what we have done. That's really
important for me when I thinkabout esoterica. So I loved calling

(48:11):
the lowrider the Mothershipbecause it was meant to be how we're
transported from this otherworld, this planet. Esoterica, where
we're bringing a ritual thatwe do all the time on this planet.
We're just bringing it todowntown Los Angeles, to Hauser and
Worth for this day.
Yeah.

(48:31):
So a part of the research andconceptualizing. When I think, okay,
I know that me and the bandare traveling 300 light years. We're
coming to the East Gallery. Wegotta get there somehow. What am
I gonna call the means oftransportation? What should I call
it? It's like, okay, well,obviously this is a mothership, but

(48:52):
what does it look like? And Isaid, oh, it looks like a white lowrider.
Like, this is a clean lowriderthat I would've seen, like, probably
one of my uncles or, like, a cousin.
Yeah.
Like, driving on a Saturday.Or where I see, like, one of my godfathers.
I would see him with this car,like, at a car show. Like, that's
a mothership.
Yeah.
And when I think. And I'mreally inspired by, like, Parliament

(49:14):
Funkadelic.
Yeah.
So I love to add that kind oflike. Like something that's funky
and, like, fly and just somuch confidence. Almost flamboyant,
yet beautiful and clean. Like,that's the kind of spaceship I want
to travel in. And I knowexactly what it looks like because

(49:35):
I've seen it in la.
Yeah. That's luxury to me.
Yes, yes, yes.
That's, like, what I think ofluxury. That's what I think about.
But I also was thinking when Iwas seeing that, I was thinking,
like, if we were to have kids,saying, you know, like, little Autumn
would be like, mom, I was nextdoor, and do you know Jerry's mom's

(49:59):
mothership they call a car?They don't call it a mothership.
Jerry, get your backpack. Getin the mothership right now. You
know, like, just like thesechildhood versions of, you know,
using that language, you know,I love. Yeah.
Because that's what's sofascinating and so cool about how
kids still see the world.

(50:19):
Yeah.
Until that's kind of, like,eroded away by adulthood. And adults.
But a kid would probably say,are they aliens? Have we been living
next door to aliens this wholetime? What's their home planet like?
Is it cold there? You know,like, kids still do that.
Yeah, they do. Did you growup. Did you grow up into, like, science

(50:39):
fiction and stuff like that?
Yeah, yeah. I loved. I lovedIsaac Asimov. I loved A Wrinkle in
Time and all the other booksin the series. But I also loved fantasy.
Like, I read Tolkien. I readC.S. lewis. I loved, like, Alice
in Wonderland and through theLooking Glass. I remember. I really

(51:03):
loved I Robot and the godsthemselves and, like, Fantastic Voyage,
where it was basically likethe magic school bus before the magic
school bus, but where theystruck themselves into the ship and
they were traveling around ahuman body. Like, I absolutely loved
that kind of shit growing up.
Yeah, it was all super cool.Did you. What was I going to ask?

(51:25):
Oh, you know, so also withyour work, I had put this note that
autumn is a king of leisureand softness.
Ah, thank you.
Yes. Was leisure and softnessalways an interest of your work?
Because, you know, like, nowit seems like, you know, play joy.

(51:49):
You know, these words arejust, like, being used all over Instagram.
Right? Like, almost to, like,a. Almost to like a. Would you please
shut up?
Yes.
Almost to, like, a. Nauseam.But it's still so important. And
so I feel like, you know, allof the work that, you know, that
you've been showing currently,you know, like, all come back to,
like, leisure, softness, rest,you know, and I. And I put, like,

(52:14):
in luxury. Um, so, yeah, I'mjust curious, like, is this something
that you've always, you know,been interested in before it became
popular? I feel like eversince the. Was it the Tricia Hershey
book?
Yes, Trisha. Rest isresistance. Yes.

(52:34):
After she brought out herbook, everybody and their mom was
like, rest is resistance. Restis resistance. And I'm like, trisha
said that. Ah, ah, ah, ah.
Trisha said that. And she'sbeen saying it for a minute. That's
been her practice. Yeah, yeah.
She's also. Also a king ofleisure and softness. Right?
Yeah.
So, yeah. I'm just curious ifthat's something you've always been
interested in before, youknow, the popularity of it.

(52:56):
Yeah, yeah, I have beeninterested in it. And I didn't always
have, like, the vocabularythat we do now, self care and, you
know, know the science behindit and things like that, but I knew
that. I knew that rest hadbeen criminalized. I knew that rest,

(53:23):
as a result, is not anexpectation for it's treated as a
privilege for so many peopleof the global majority. And that
always seemed really wrong atand inorganic to me. And it just
felt like another attack onhumanity, especially on black women's
humanity. There was anexhibition I worked on a few years

(53:47):
ago with Tahira Rashid and oneof the. I was a guest curator. So
she and I are both artists,but we guest curated this exhibition.
And this text that we startedwith was actually an ordinance from
the early 20th century. And Iwant to say it was in North Carolina,

(54:10):
but I can, I could verify thatbasically black women had to prove
that they were employed bysomebody. Prove that you are an employee.
Yeah. And if you were seen inpublic and if you weren't working
and if you couldn't prove thatyou were employed, you could be arrested.
Wow.

(54:31):
Yeah. So that's an earlyexample of our rest just not working.
And that's something that I'veheard people get wrong. Like when,
when they'll first hear aboutthe nap ministry. Maybe if Trisha's
book was new to them orsomething. People saying like, oh,
I don't even like naps orwhat's the point of a nap? It's,
it's, it's, it doesn't meanthat you're literally sleeping. Just

(54:52):
not working.
Right, Right.
Yeah. Just not working. Andit's also important for me, I take
it so personally because Iknow what it feels like when your
body is impacted, when yourmind is impacted by overworking.
Yeah.
And then when that can go evenfurther and be even more dangerous.

(55:12):
Which is a part of what wewere talking about when we talk about
this black excellence thing.But where your worth, your identity
is based around your work.That, that's the dangerous part.
Yeah.
That and, and, and we can seea lot of that. And that behavior
can be rewarded in a lot ofthe environments that, that we're
in. You. You know, like, Iwouldn't be surprised if the same

(55:34):
people that only have respectfor someone think that they are excellent
if they're a doctor or alawyer. I wouldn't be surprised if
some of the rhetoric that theyalso validate is like, oh, I pulled
an all nighter last night.
Yes, that happened. Yeah.
I've been working 60 hoursthis week. Like, that's not something

(55:56):
to brag about. That's not cuteat all.
It's not. Right.
And it's just personal for mebecause I want to be here for a long
time. I have people that Ilove that I want to see get old.
I want to get old. I want toBe here for people. In order for
that to happen, I have to behealthy. And a part of that is me
getting rest physically. Butalso I have to have, like, the emotional

(56:20):
space sometimes to not be working.
Yeah.
So, yeah, it just feelspersonal. Like, I. There are too
many people that. And eventhat I know personally that died
way too young that shouldstill be here had they not had to
work so goddamn hard. And it'slike, I ain't gonna help the oppressor.
I ain't gonna help you kill meby working and maintaining this expectation

(56:44):
of validation from work andhow much you've worked. It just feels
sick to me.
Yeah. Yeah. It's not cool atall. Yeah. Don't overwork yourself.
Mm. Mm.
Yeah, I don't. Yeah, it's not.It's not worth it. Yeah, you'll run
yourself ragged, as they say.You'll run yourself raggedy.
And we know these things.Like, our aunties, our parents, our

(57:07):
grandmothers were telling usthis. And that's why I say, like,
the vocabulary might bedifferent now, but it's the same
message. It's ancient.
Yeah. We really need to start listening.
Yeah. To ourselves, too.
Yep. Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, ask me, like. CauseI had wanted to ask, like, a sort

(57:28):
of a fun question.
Yes.
If you could build a beautifulmutual aid network in outer space,
what's the first thing you'd include?
Ooh, okay. The first thing I'dinclude, like, physically, as like
a tenant, as like a goal,maybe physically. Okay. So if this

(57:54):
is a mutual aid networksomeplace in space, it would be great
if we had someplace where wecould meet. Someplace where you can
get, um. Well, I think. Ithink physical objects, like things
that people need. You wouldn'thave to go to this place. Like, you
don't have to go to thestation, if you will. Like, it can
be sent so that it can gothrough, like, space and time. Like,

(58:16):
you don't have to get therephysically, but if you want to roll
up, you can. Because I think apart of the mutual aid would be,
like, providing, like, ashared resource for when you need
some in person time withsomebody. Like, you can come from
anywhere in the universe andyou could show up to this station

(58:38):
for a little bit of in persontime, and it would only be with somebody
that also wants in person timeor wants to offer it.
Ooh. It makes me think of,like, in Amsterdam, the red light
district, how you can go seethe ladies and hit the button and
the thing will pop and they'llbe like, what do you want to talk
About.
Yes. So I think it's a say,okay, maybe it's like that. But both

(58:59):
people, I think you don't seethe person. You, you just hear them.
So you're hearing somebodyelse say, hey, this is what I need
right now. Like, this is whatI would love to get from a conversation.
It could be something like, Idon't need advice right now, I just
need to be heard. I need to beheard for like five minutes. It could
be something like that, right?
I like that.
So then the other person thatshows up, they're like, hey, I got

(59:23):
time, I got five minutes and Ican listen to somebody. So it's only
when both people consent, youshow up, you hear the person that
makes the request, but thenthe person that made the request
will also hear the person likewhy they decided to roll up. But
both people press the buttonat the same time.
I love it.
So then both people are revealed.

(59:43):
Yes.
Ah, we made that together.
Yeah, I love that. That's sogreat. That also makes me think of
like when you go toconfession, you know, like how you
like slide those doors open.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But there's somebody could belike, what is it that you want to
talk about? And then you slideit back and then they go and get
someone like, oh, they don't.They just want something to hear

(01:00:03):
them vent. And then you goback and then they slide it open
and then whoever's availableto hear them vent can sit there.
So if you were looking toactually give somebody advice, if
you're like that kind ofperson, you go and like sit in the
break room and wait.
Right? It's like, let me clockout. I know somebody better for this.
Yeah.
Yes. I had a piece that waskind of like that. It's traveled.

(01:00:24):
It's called. There are twophone boxes, they're called care
phone boxes.
Okay.
And you choose if you're goingto the give some care or take some
care phone.
Uh huh.
They're both pink. To takesome care, you pick up the phone
and you hear a message, a caremessage that a stranger left behind.

(01:00:48):
If you wanna give some care,you pick up the phone and you leave
a message. So those messagesroll over to the other phone. We
have a message that came fromlike a five year old. We have messages
from elders, messages fromartists, from all sorts of stuff.
But like one that I reallylike is you're. If somebody tries

(01:01:15):
to make you feel small, it'sbecause they feel small. So you can't
take that personally. Yeah,it's just like just small Statements
like that. Yeah. But it.Sometimes it might hit somebody that
really needed it in that moment.
Yeah. That's really good. Ilove that.
That should be.
Yep. Bring it back. Expose it again.

(01:01:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
In the next exhibition. Haveit again or something. So by the
time this conversation airs,you will be headed to Seattle, Washington.
Yeah.
For your. For the ProtectiveStyle performance at Walk the Block
Artist Festival in Seattle,Washington. Yeah. I bet you're excited

(01:01:57):
about it.
I can't wait. I'm so excited.I love Protective Style. I love doing
that piece. We've beenrehearsing, and it's gonna be a really
special performance. We're soexcited to be doing this in Seattle.
I love the Pacific Northwest,and I love Seattle's history and
the communities of folks thathave been there for a while that

(01:02:18):
have done such incrediblework, including mutual aid. There's
so many roots for that inSeattle. So I'm really excited to
be spending time there and tobe a part of the Walk the Block festival.
It's so great. They've beenputting this on for years. I think
I'm going before SaulWilliams, who is another artist that
has so much respect for. Yeah,yeah. It's gonna be fun. It's gonna

(01:02:41):
be a great performance.
I love it. So if you're inSeattle, you could just go. I will
put all the details in theshow notes for folks.
Amazing. Yeah. It's gonna befun if you're in Seattle. If you're
going to be in Seattle on the27th, we'd love to see you. I love
what they do even when thefestival isn't happening. This location
is also an art gallery and anart center, and it's all in this

(01:03:06):
one neighborhood in Seattle. Ithink they set a really interesting
precedent for what it lookslike for art to be a part of community.
Like, not in conversation withcommunity, but for those to coexist.
I think they do a really,really special job with it like that.
I know it happens in othercities, but I would love for more

(01:03:26):
folks to be doing that. To bedoing that.
Yeah, yeah. You're doing workthat should be modeled as well. I
think, like, with. Especiallywith the care machine. I feel like
care machines should also bereplicated, you know, for other people
to. To offer.
We. We. We have todestigmatize receiving care.

(01:03:47):
Yeah.
And that's why it was soimportant for me to make sure that
the care machine looked beautiful.
Yeah.
And for us to have careservices near the care machine when
it's installed. So even ifthere's Nothing that you need from
the care machine. You can geta massage, you can get a tooth, gym,

(01:04:09):
you can get a facial. Andgetting an abortion should be as
convenient as gettingsomething from a vending machine.
But there should also be justas much dignity as a spa, as a beauty
salon. I think that's a bigpart of why those worlds come together.

(01:04:31):
For me, it's convenience anddignity that we all deserve. And
you should be able to choose acute little lube container or a little
mini brush and some Juliepills if you need it. There should
be no shame in that.
Right. It's actually sort ofcute. Right. Because the care machine
is so pretty. It's like,again, that's luxury. Just like feeling,

(01:04:57):
feeling good, feeling pretty.That's what I love.
And we all deserve that. Like,it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be
a nice to have. Yeah, thoseare all essential. They're all equally
essential. Like, and, and, andthat's a part of why I was so glad
that we were always able tohave hair supply in the machine.
Because something that reallyfrustrates me, there are a lot of

(01:05:18):
things that frustrate me aboutthe foster care system and commercially
sexually exploited children.And that's mostly black girls.
Yeah.
I don't like that. Hair careoftentimes is set aside as something
that's nice to have or areward for good behavior for girls.

(01:05:42):
Like that's. That should notbe the case. And even girls that
aren't sexually exploited,folks that aren't in the system.
Yeah.
Sometimes like, like hair andbeauty are talked about in that way.
And I don't think that that'ssafe. I don't think there's care
in that. I think thatperpetuates a lot of harm that can
manifest into like a lack ofconfidence or lower self esteem.

(01:06:04):
And we don't need that.Especially when our hair is a part
of our storytelling and our culture.
Like 100%. Yeah.
Yeah. That's important to me.
Yeah. Don't make it so difficult.
There's enough hard shit forreal. We don't have to make getting
morning after pills, a condom,edge control, a snack. None of that

(01:06:25):
should be difficult too. Like,at least not on my watch. I'm not
gonna contribute to thosethings being hard to do.
I heard that.
No, I heard that.
I heard that. Yeah.
So.
So, yeah. So tell me thenabout the assemblage.
Yes. Yes. So some of my earlywork was performance based, but also

(01:06:50):
installation and sculpture.So. And I've been exploring mixed
media and multidisciplinarywork for a while too. So an early
piece that actually has becomekind of relevant recently with everybody
talking about jeans and theAmerican Eagle ad.
Yeah.
And then the dope Gap ad. So Imade this piece I worked with. Right.

(01:07:16):
Gap shut that all down, didn'tthey? They just shut it all down.
They're like, listen, enoughis enough. Let me show you.
It looked so good. Like,visually, that was just a beautiful
video. Everyone looked great.And there wasn't even dialogue or.
Or like a monologue. Nobodysaid anything about, like a weird,

(01:07:37):
gross double entendre aboutjeans or anything like that. We.
We were just watchingbeautiful people dance and clothes.
Yup. It was really good. Iwill put in the show notes for the
listener who's like, what arewe talking about? I'll put in the
show notes. Don't worry.
Yes. Highly recommend watching that.
Yeah.
So I did this piece where Icollected recycled denim and all

(01:08:01):
recycled pieces, alsofurniture and drawers. And I made
a projector that played avideo that I made about the history
of denim and how denim hasalways been black in this country,
in the United States. So itused to be clothing that was for

(01:08:22):
utility and for work, forworking outside. And enslaved people
were forced to wear denimbecause it could deal with, like,
the wear and tear of heavylabor. And also it was a way to see
who was enslaved and whowasn't. Because the folks that owned
slaves were wearing linensuits, petticoats, and dresses, obviously.

(01:08:44):
And if you were working, youwere probably wearing denim. So that
carried a stigma for a while.When you fast forward to James Brown,
actually he didn't allowanybody in his band to wear denim.
Oh, okay. Wow. Had no idea.
He said those were slave clothes.
Oh, okay, James. Wow. And hewas right. They were at the time.

(01:09:08):
Right?
Yeah, yeah. Like, if you werea certain age and in this country
during a certain time period,it was probably in your recent memory
to associate denim with slavery.
Wow.
So when we go to sncc,mobilizers and organizers that were
trying to get folks the voteand able to vote in the South. A

(01:09:31):
lot of the young people thatwere coming down to the south were
from the Midwest, from theeast coast, and these were like college
kids. So they were wearingpoodle skirts and like penny loafers
and button ups and things likethat. The communities that they were
working with, many of thesefolks were sharecroppers. They were
still wearing denim.
Okay.

(01:09:52):
So visually, there was thisjuxtaposition, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So the young people, theystarted wearing denim.
Okay.
And it demonstrated, you know,we haven't come that far from slavery.
But also, this is a livingplaying field, a level playing field.
Like, we can actually. We canbe in dialogue, and this doesn't
have to be another barrier,you know, like how we show up sartorially,

(01:10:15):
fashion wise.
Yeah.
So that became, like, a partof the uniform and the culture of
the movement. Folks would weardenim even when Dr. King was arrested.
When he was arrested and hewrote his letter from a Birmingham
jail. That arrest. Yeah, hewas wearing dinner. Really? Yeah.

(01:10:39):
Well, I've never seen him indenim. And he.
I'll send you a picture.
Okay, cool.
I'll send you a picture. Andyou also see, like, these SNCC organizers
and young people wearingoveralls, wearing denim and, like,
having their buttons. You'llsee that in images from, like, the
50s and the 60s. So then afterthat, denim became mainstream. And

(01:11:01):
a lot of folks will associatedenim. If you think of American denim
or whatever, you know, youmight think of, I don't know, like,
Brooke Shields and like, thatCalvin Klein commercial or like Bruce
Springsteen and those folksthat were wearing denim, but it came
from before that. And blackpeople, I argue black people made
denim fashionable.
Wow. Yeah, thanks for sharingthat. I had no idea. And so then

(01:11:26):
the artwork was a assemblageof these different denim dresses,
Drawers.
Like a chest of drawers, butall wrapped in and made from denim.
Like, different shades ofdenim, different washes that I put
all together on the frame onceI had it. And then I built a little

(01:11:49):
projector that's also allcovered in denim. And then when you
put your phone in it, itprojected onto a wall and played
this video describing wheredenim came from.
I love it, and I love thelevel of craftsmanship as well. Thank
you. Salute to that, for sure.
Yeah, thanks.
Cause that's not easy. Soawesome. That's really cool.

(01:12:12):
So, yeah, I've been makingstuff and using objects to talk about
history in a different way. Ithink that's really what's been consistent
with my practice. There'salways some piece of history that
I want to amplify and tellstories about through material.
This has been another episodeof nosey af. I'm your host, Stephanie

(01:12:33):
Graham. What did you thinkabout today's conversation? I would
love to hear your thoughts.Head over to the nosey AF website
for all the show notes relatedto this episode. You can also find
me on Instagram at StephanieGraham, what would you know? Or online@missgraham.com
where you can sign up for mynewsletter where I share exclusive
updates about my studiopractice as well as this podcast.

(01:12:56):
Until next time, y' all staycurious and take care. Bye.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Everything is Mutual Aid with Autumn Breon