July 29, 2025 • 40 mins
When Jeff Wetzler scribbled his napkin wisdom — “The answers you most need are hidden in plain sight… They reside in the hearts and minds of the people right around you. You just need to know how to ask in the right ways.” — he distilled 25 years of leadership, education-innovation, and curiosity-driven research into one deceptively simple thought.
Jeff is co-CEO and co-founder of Transcend, the nonprofit helping schools design breakthrough learning models, and former Chief Learning Officer at Teach For America. With a doctorate in Adult Learning & Leadership from Columbia and a psychology degree from Brown, he’s advised Fortune-100 executives, written two books (most recently ASK: Tap Into the Hidden Wisdom of People Around You), and built “The Ask Approach,” a five-step method to turn everyday conversations into engines of insight and trust.
“People don’t tell us what we really need to hear because they’re afraid of the impact… That fear keeps leaders in the dark.” — Jeff Wetzler, PNW 275
In this wide-ranging conversation, Jeff unpacks how leaders can transform curiosity from a polite gesture into a power tool for breakthrough learning. He recounts a youth-sports story where a coach’s frustration melted once he learned why players skipped practice, and he challenges all of us to stop “mind-reading” and start mind-finding:
“Right under their nose was the answer, but they had no idea. This breakdown is tragic — and totally avoidable.” — Jeff Wetzler
Throughout the episode, Jeff and I explore why most cultures default to silence, how leaders can signal genuine interest, and what it takes to turn hidden wisdom into bold action. Whether you’re building a startup, running a school, or guiding a global team, Jeff’s message is the same: asking well is the soil in which every other leadership skill can flourish.
Key Takeaways
1. Curiosity is a discipline, not a mood. Treat great questioning like a workout routine: it needs structure and repetition.
Take Action: Before every one-on-one or strategy session, build a Curiosity Checklist by writing three genuinely open prompts—questions you can’t answer with the data already in front of you. When you enter the room armed with those prompts, you signal respect, ignite fresh thinking, and model the investigative mindset your team will emulate.
2. Silence isn’t safety. If people predict punishment or pointlessness, they keep game-changing ideas to themselves.
Take Action: Run a quick Psychological Safety Pulse: ask each teammate—anonymously—when they last held back an insight and why. Debrief the patterns together, then adjust norms so everyone sees that candor is rewarded, not risky.
3. Assumptions blind insight. Leaders often “mind-read” instead of mind-find, making decisions on guesses rather than reality.
Take Action: Start an Assumption Swap ritual: state one working assumption aloud, then invite at least two alternative explanations before you decide. That simple pause surfaces hidden variables and prevents costly missteps.
4. Small asks unlock big brea
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Jeff Weltzler. Welcome to paper and acumen paper napkin wisdom. I'm so happy to have you here with me today.
Jeff Wetzler (00:08):
Oh, it's it's great to be with you. Thank you for having me.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:11):
I'm excited to have you here so excited that I stumbled over my own words on our own brand. So that happens from time to time, and you know again a reminder that you know we don't edit anything out, even if I trip over my own words. So you shared a great napkin with me, and I want to read it out for everybody. The answers you most need are hidden in plain sight.
(00:35):
They reside in the hearts and minds of the people right around you.
You just need to know how to ask in the right ways.
Why did you share that with me?
Jeff Wetzler (00:47):
I mean, that is probably the you know, the premise of so much of what I care about and think about. And I'm doing in the world on multiple fronts these days. I see it everywhere, like I honestly, literally saw it just this morning with one of my kids.
(01:09):
and I'll I'll disguise the example just a tiny bit. But one of my kids is on a, you know, does sports, and their coach is frustrated with them, that they're not practicing that they're not coming to practices and trainings more.
And so the coach is coming down on them putting pressure, whatever. And I said to my kid, why aren't you doing this? And what they said to me is, the practices aren't working for me. I don't think I'm getting better at these practices. The way that the coaching is happening doesn't actually make me feel like I'm improving. So why would I want to go?
(01:39):
And the coach has no idea that this is the experience of the person that they're trying to get better. They just think this kid is not committed enough. Meanwhile my child wants to get better. But the coach has no idea. And so the answer that that coach needs is right there
right under their nose. But they have no idea. And that is so true, I believe, for all of us. When I think about whether we're trying to negotiate something, whether we're trying to get an investor or a funder on board, whether we're trying to retain an employee when we stumble against things when we come up against barriers. Often the answer we need the other person already knows. But they're not telling us for any number of reasons, and to me it kills me because it's like it doesn't have to be this way. If only they knew. If only they found out
(02:26):
everything would be better. They would make better decisions. They'd feel better together. They work better together, and this has happened to me over and over again in my own life as a leader, when I have been leading teams and something is going wrong or about to go wrong, and I only find out later. And I think to myself, if only you had told me I would have rolled up my sleeves. I could have helped, and they're thinking to themselves if I had told you, you might have fired me. And so this breakdown to me is both tragic but also avoidable.
(02:53):
And yeah, I'll stop there.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:55):
No, no, I mean, I think there's so much there. And and
you know, I think I think there's so much there. But one of the things that I think is really interesting is that
most leaders, even not as good ones.
code, word for bad. But even all most people who are in a position of leadership.
(03:16):
Want to know? Like, want to know what's going on right.
Jeff Wetzler (03:19):
Totally.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:20):
So why, if that's
mostly true and I'm let's just deal with generality. If that's mostly true, why is it also mostly true that people don't volunteer that information.
Jeff Wetzler (03:34):
Yeah, such a good question. I think to myself, I would want to know as your leader. Why aren't you telling me this? And so, you know, in doing this research for the book, I came up with a number of reasons why people don't share.
Now, reason number one is fear.
whether it is justified or not.
People don't tell us what we really need to hear, because they're afraid of the impact of what would happen.
(03:56):
They're afraid that we might get upset, that we might get defensive. It might put tension in the relationship. It might, you know, make them look silly. And what's interesting is, the fear doesn't have to be justified for it to be real. It could be a fear that they are creating in their own stories. It could be a fear that came from their experience with a different leader altogether, but nonetheless that fear is there, and that's the number. One reason.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:20):
And you know I like that you that you couched it as being justified or not.
Yeah, right? Because there may. No, you may have given them no basis for that whatsoever.
Jeff Wetzler (04:32):
Totally.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:33):
And and don't we sometimes punish people for not coming forward because we've given them no basis not to come forward.
Jeff Wetzler (04:40):
Absolutely right. That is like, why did you.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:42):
Tell me earlier, right.
Jeff Wetzler (04:44):
And they're thinking, well, here's another reason to be afraid of the person, you know, because now they're punishing me for something else I didn't do fear is not. The only reason that what's interesting. Second reason that I found is that people sometimes don't have the words
like it occurs to them as an intuition. It might occur to them as a gut feeling. Maybe they even have words, but they know if they say the words that they have. It's going to make it worse. They just don't have the constructive, precise, explicit words to say it.
(05:15):
Sometimes, interestingly, it's a math problem. The human brain can process 900 words a minute, it turns out. But the human mouth, on average, can put out about 1, 25 words a minute. So sometimes they're just thinking things, but they don't. You know. It's not coming out of their mouth because other things are coming out of their mouth as well. So those particular words are not coming out.
(05:35):
Another reason why people don't do it is, if you don't share it is they just feel like they're too busy. They don't have the time. They're too tired like, literally. This morning somebody was giving me a piece of advice on something, and my own internal story was, this is not helpful advice that you're giving me.
I didn't say it to him, and the reason I didn't say it to him is, I felt like then I have to have a whole conversation, and I got 3 min left in this conversation. I don't want to extend this conversation, so you know I'm not going to say it. But the biggest reason to be the most interesting reason I found why people don't share
(06:08):
is they don't feel like their opinion is valued. They don't realize that the other person actually wants to know what they have to say. And to me that's the most interesting one, because we, as leaders can do something about that, we can let them know that we actually do want and need their opinion. So often as leaders, we think to ourselves. Well, if there's an issue, they're going to tell me. If they've got feedback, they're going to speak up. If they have an idea, of course they're going to share it. But the other person's thinking, I have no idea that they want to know this, and that's such a fixable thing that we can very easily do something about.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:38):
Yeah, I think it is really interesting, right? The 1st 3 fear don't have the words
to put around their thoughts or the math problem you talked about, or they're too busy, too tired, whatever those are all about them. And one of them, one of these 4, is about us, and they don't feel like their opinion is valued.
(07:02):
So why? Why is it that people come into it with a paradigm? But their opinion is not valued.
Jeff Wetzler (07:11):
Well for a bunch of different reasons. Some people have received messages through society or organizations that they don't have a place, that their voice is not valued, that they're somehow less than
and and so that. And so that's understandable.
Some people have received cultural messages in their life that I don't speak up unless somebody tells me that they want to know what I have to say.
(07:38):
for me. Personally, I've had all kinds of experiences in my life going back to childhood, where I don't necessarily feel safe, putting my voice out there because I was an other, and you know where I was growing up, and sometimes I got whacked for being another. And so I thought to myself, I'm going to stay. I'm going to hold back now. If somebody asked me a question, then I have permission, but other than that, I'm going to keep it to myself as well. All of those different reasons.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:05):
I think it's really interesting.
and I don't think we spend enough time on this. But cultural messaging and cultural norms play a bigger and bigger role in society today, and especially, you know, most of us are working in cross-cultural, multicultural environments, and different people need different things to feel open, and and in many cultures, it's just not okay
(08:32):
to question leadership, not okay. No matter how much you're asked.
Jeff Wetzler (08:36):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:36):
It is just not okay.
Jeff Wetzler (08:38):
100%. I do an exercise sometimes with groups where I say to groups, stand up. If ever as a child, you were sent the message that you shouldn't be asking questions.
and invariably, when I do it with groups, at least a 3rd of the group stands up that they've been told like you, just as kids don't ask questions. One person stood up and said, my parents offered to buy me ice cream if I stopped asking questions because I was asking so many questions. And you know it's kind of funny, but it's also very sad, because it's a message that we send to people like don't question. And then I go on to say, and how many people have gotten the message at work. You shouldn't ask questions, and by the time I finish that almost the entire room is standing up.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:18):
Yeah. And I think the message in school in North America like this is not a multicultural thing, but the message we're told in school is. Sit still.
be quiet, and do as you're told.
Jeff Wetzler (09:28):
Give. Give me the right answer. I'll be the one.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:30):
This is the one answer.
Jeff Wetzler (09:32):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:33):
One answer, and I'm telling you what it is. You give it to me. You get you. If you play this game you get a good grade.
Jeff Wetzler (09:40):
Yeah, and only give it to me when you're asked to give it to me. Don't you know? Don't shout out beforehand or after? Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:46):
Yeah, you know, there are rules around all of these engagements. So so
you know, Jeff, you said that you wish you had known this as a leader.
Obviously you've come upon this as part of your work and in the book you wrote.
But how did you come upon this? You know what what path led you to this Eureka?
Jeff Wetzler (10:08):
So a few different strands of it. My 1st job out of college was at a consulting firm called Monitor Group, and I chose Monitor Group for 2 reasons. One was that their recruitment slogan at the time was a place for optimists to change the world.
and that just spoke to me. But the second reason I chose it was that there was someone who worked there named Chris Argerus, who was very well known as one of the fathers of organizational behavior, and he really kind of developed the whole field of organizational learning.
(10:42):
and I have always been passionate about teaching and learning, and Chris studied the question of how is it that the smartest, most quote, successful, most quote. Educated people are often the worst at learning.
especially learning new things, especially from other people, and he just found this pattern. Over and over again he wrote articles with titles like teaching smart people how to learn. But in addition to diagnosing the problem, and we can talk about what he found. Chris was never satisfied to just say, Okay, I've figured out why the problem exists. He wanted to disrupt that and do something about it. And so he developed a whole methodology
(11:19):
known as productive reasoning or productive interactions that really helps people learn how to interact with other people, that in ways that would actually surface this stuff.
And as I got to start to work with him and his colleagues more and more I had the opportunity to start teaching this material to consultants around the world, and ultimately to our clients around the world.
and quite often I would have the experience of teaching it, and by the end of the day people would say, this thing changed. My life like this is not going to just help me out work. This is going to save my marriage. This is like, you know, the most transformative thing, and I can say it with all humility because I didn't invent it. I was just a messenger of it. This was 25 plus years ago, but it was so powerful for people to see the ways in which they were getting in their own ways, and we can talk about what that methodology looked like. But so that was one strand of it for me, and then I had the opportunity to kind of build upon that with other mentors.
(12:08):
But then I stepped out of consulting, and I went into the arena and I was leading a team of hundreds of people. And that's when I fell flat on my face. That's when I realized, okay, I'm doing what I taught people to do. And still they're not telling me the right answer. They're not telling me what they really think and what I realized, is I had been blind to the lack of psychological safety that people felt around me, especially across lines of difference
(12:30):
power difference. There was a lot of race difference, gender difference, cultural difference, education, different, a whole bunch of different things, and that I was not even taking into account. And so what I realized is I needed to add to the toolkit that I had originally inherited, and ultimately, once I was able to round it out in different kinds of ways. It started to become a foundation for my leadership, and ultimately my coaching and developing of other people around me. And eventually I said, I want to pay this forward. I want to put this out in a way that other people can can access. It.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:59):
So talking about psychological safety, I mean, a lot of people talk about this in leadership and that leaders need to create psychological safety in their teams, and it sounds like a bit of a buzzword, but it also, you know, I've heard some pushback from from smaller entrepreneurs from entrepreneurs of small teams saying.
You know, like we need, I don't have time for this. This is overwhelming. How do I do this?
(13:24):
Because I just need people to get to frickin work like.
Jeff Wetzler (13:27):
Totally.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:28):
I don't get how I do this like where do I? Where do I do this in all of my overwhelm? What would you say.
Jeff Wetzler (13:35):
I would say. 1st of all, I think there's probably some discussion to have about what is this? What is the doing of this? In the 1st place, because I do think that sometimes people think that making it safe for other people means we've got to go Whitewater rafting as a team and do a ropes course, and be nice to everybody all the time, and all that kind of stuff. And that's not what I'm talking about here. What this is is really just creating the conditions, so that if somebody disagrees with you, they're going to tell you, if somebody sees a mistake that you're about to make.
(14:04):
You're gonna find that out. If somebody makes a mistake themselves.
they're going to tell you. And I would say to any leader, any entrepreneur of any size organization. You don't have time to not find that stuff out. You don't have time to find out later that this person knew that your whole
plan was about to tank, because customers don't want it, but they didn't feel safe telling you that as well. So some of it is, I would say, like it's the pay now, or pay later plan, and if you pay later, it's going to be a lot more costly than paying right now.
(14:31):
But then what I would also say is, it doesn't take a lot to create safety. So some of the things that you can do literally to create safety are. Just be a little bit intentional about the time and space and place when you're having the conversation, do it where the other person is going to feel most comfortable. So, for example, I interviewed Ceos of big organizations, and I said to them.
You know Ceos are notorious for not getting the truth out of people. People lie to Ceos. They tell them what it's going to make them look good. What the CEO is going to want to hear, I said to Ceos, how do you get the truth out of people? And they said, It's simple. I would never bring them to my office. Make them sit across this big, intimidating CEO desk from me and assume that they're going to feel safe. Now I'm going to go to them. We're going to do a ride along. We're going to have lunch together. We're going to take a walk. So these are things that you can just do in the normal course of your daily business that just gets you interacting with people.
(15:19):
Second thing you can do is if you're asking someone a question as a you know, as a entrepreneur or business leader.
Just tell them why you're asking the question doesn't take more than 20 seconds to say, look, I'm asking, because I just don't. You know I'm stuck on this, or I don't realize this, or I really value your perspective.
That makes them not guess. And people are so often, especially if there's a lack of safety, suspicious of your motives, and if you can just say No, no, here's why I'm asking, and the more you can just show where you're stuck, or where you're vulnerable, the safer it gets for them. And the last thing I talk about is something that I call radiate resilience, which is just to let them know that you can handle their truth
(15:57):
because people are always gauging. How brittle are you, how defensive are you going to be, how much you're going to punish them if they tell you a hard truth.
and you can just completely inoculate against that by just saying things to them like, I want your most critical feedback. Where is this plan going to fail?
Or I can imagine. If I were in your shoes I might be stuck or frustrated, or whatever just putting those things out there on the table makes it easier.
(16:19):
So the totality of of what I'm saying, I think, takes less than a minute or 2 to do, but can be such powerful high leverage moves just to make it a little safer and easier and more comfortable for people to tell you the truth.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:33):
I want to. I want to retreat to something you said a little while ago to start this segment, and I think this is
massively misunderstood.
When people talk about psychological safety, they conflate it with cupcake carts and team building, don't they? Right like it's like, but I've got the coffee shops, and I've got the this, and I've got the, you know. I'm doing all these things, but they still don't come to me. That's not the same thing right.
Jeff Wetzler (17:02):
Totally that. Yeah, that that is not you. You can do all that stuff.
And I've seen organizations do all that stuff, and people still don't feel safe. Psychological safety comes from people having a sense of connection that they trust you, that they realize where you're coming from, that they know you can handle their truth. That's the kind of stuff that we're talking about here. And this is not soft stuff. This is so that people will give you hard feedback, so that people will admit mistakes so that people will ask for help, so that people give other people help.
(17:29):
That's the hard-nosed business reason why, you'd need enough safety for people to be able to actually be honest.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:35):
Yeah. And I think this is really critically important for people listening. Safety doesn't come
from social activities. Psychological safety is not the same thing as social safety.
Psychological safety comes from doing the work.
Jeff Wetzler (17:49):
Well together.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:50):
You have to be able to work well together, and that's where the safety comes in collaboration. It does not come
from being able to share a beer after work that has nothing to do with it. Almost so. So I really, I really love that you. You set the stage by going to visit them first, st right going to their space, going to visit them. And then you added something else that I like to call, and I borrow this term from a mentor of mine, Jim Estel. He's been on paper napkin wisdom, he calls it the power of, while.
(18:28):
So while you're going for a walk. You have a conversation while you're doing something else. You do this other thing. So you know, while you're going for a ride along, you
create the opportunity to get feedback. So these are opportunities
using the power of while. So you can combine activities. So if you're an entrepreneur of a small team, a leader of a small team, and you're time pressured already. The power of while can be a big solution. Can't it.
Jeff Wetzler (18:56):
Absolutely I love it, love it.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:59):
Right? So so now, here's another thing that I think
leaders do badly when asking for these kinds of things. And it's really related to these devices, isn't it, that we tend to get distracted by those things, or allow those things to distract our teams so that we're flitting in and out of a conversation, and we can appear frustrated
(19:24):
either by what we've received or by the fact that they're picking up their phone and that screens between conversations really needs to be taken out of it, doesn't it? To really build a collaboration.
Jeff Wetzler (19:36):
100%. I mean, I I remember once being in a conversation with someone who I was trying to build a you know, build a collaboration with, and we sat down and he was on his phone.
and I said to him, Oh, I'll give you a minute if you need to finish something, he said, no, no, start talking now. I can listen to you while I'm on my phone. And it was just so off putting to me, I said to myself, I'm never going to work with this person. I don't even give me like a moment of his attention to actually talk about this, and I actually don't think he was able to do the thing he thought he was able to do, which is actually to do 2 things at the exact same time.
(20:10):
And so, you know, even before we get to the place of like, people will see us reacting to what's on our phone and not what's going on with them. It's just so freaking, distracting, like, we can't actually be present and talk about what we talked about earlier, about one of the reasons why people don't share is because they don't think their voice is valued.
If you're on your device, that's a big message to the other person like I got something more important to do than you hear, and it doesn't save you time. So step 4 of the ask approach is, listen to learn. And the 1st thing I say under that is ditch the distractions, because you're not going to hear anything that you need to hear. If you're doing that.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:48):
I also? I love that love that
I love telling them why you're asking the other part that I think is really important.
and I think this this requires a little bit of preparation on the part of the leader, doesn't it? But radiating resilience. Let's talk about this a little bit.
not to say that you're infallible, not to say that you don't have to care about what they have to say, but use use the term
(21:14):
that people are worried about how brittle you are.
Jeff Wetzler (21:17):
Yeah, what does that mean?
Basically. So it can mean a couple of things. One is that sometimes people don't want to hurt you. They care about you, and they think if they're going to tell you some piece of critical feedback, or they're going to tell you why customers don't want your product, or they're an investor that's not going to invest, but for a reason that they don't think you can handle. They don't want to deflate you. And so that's 1 reason. A different version of.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:38):
Pause there for a second, because I think that I wonder if it's
it's more to do with them than it is to do with you. They don't want to be the person that does hurt.
They don't want to do the. They don't want to be the kind of like they're they're so afraid of conflict because they don't want that on them that they may have hurt somebody.
(21:59):
It might not really have to do with you, but it has to do with them, doesn't it?
Jeff Wetzler (22:03):
I I totally agree. People people themselves don't want to be the hurter
Govindh Jayaraman (22:08):
Yeah.
Jeff Wetzler (22:08):
But even still, they that includes an assumption that you will get hurt as well. Correct. And so.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:15):
I just wanted to disassociate from the assumption that they care about.
Jeff Wetzler (22:18):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:19):
They may not care about you as a person they might not even like you.
They may care about themselves, not being the kind of person who's going to make someone else upset, correct.
Jeff Wetzler (22:29):
And so it could be any number of those things. Sometimes they do care about you, sometimes they care about themselves, often it's sort of a mix in between. And maybe if they don't think you're going to get hurt, but they think you're going to be defensive, and they don't want to have to deal with your defensiveness. Or maybe they think you're just the kind of a vindictive kind of person, and you're going to get taken out on them later all kinds of things. But it all comes down to do. They actually think you can handle their truth
(22:52):
in one way or another, and so radiating resilience is basically saying and communicating and demonstrating to to the other person. I can handle your truth, even if it's a hard truth.
That doesn't mean, I'm not going to have a reaction.
I might have a reaction. It might be hard for me to hear. But what I my promise to you is, I'm not going to hold you responsible for my reaction. I'm not going to blame you for making me upset. I might say to you that was really hard for me to hear, and I'm really glad to know that, because now I can do something about it now, I can fix it, or whatever. But it's my relationship to my reaction, and I'm letting them know whatever it is. I'm human. I might have a reaction, but I'm not taking it out on you. I'm not seeing you as the cause of that.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:33):
And so so
I think you you gave us a little Mini script right away, like in your response, yeah. And and it's it's owning whatever emotion that you're feeling, declaring it, saying.
Jeff Wetzler (23:47):
Don't hide.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:47):
Wow, man, that's that surprised me. That's that's alarming.
Jeff Wetzler (23:54):
I didn't see that coming. Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:55):
And not but and I'm so grateful you shared that with me.
Jeff Wetzler (24:00):
Exactly, exactly.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:01):
Right now it sometimes as leaders. We have a need to solve things right away.
But I noticed that you did not include a solution
as part of it, just an acknowledgement.
Jeff Wetzler (24:13):
Just an acknowledgement. Now, perhaps later in the conversation, we might get to what's going on, and you know we haven't even talked about asking questions yet, but a question that you can ask. Someone who's bringing to this is to you know what would be helpful here. Sometimes people just want to be heard. Sometimes people want to be helped.
Sometimes people want to be hugged, and you can say to them what's most helpful. And sometimes when I say that to people on my own team. They say I don't need any help. I just need you to know that I'm going through this, or I need you to know that this was hard for me, and other times they want to get roll up their sleeves and do it. But I agree with you we shouldn't just jump into fix.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:49):
Yeah, it's and I think part of the re part of how we create psychological safety is we and and I heard a great metaphor. It was about parenting.
and the the person the expert was saying, she likened it to a bench, and the bench was an emotion, and she was saying.
(25:11):
we have to just go sit on the bench with them.
And that's okay. Just share the bench. Yeah. And say, we're sitting here.
Jeff Wetzler (25:20):
Yeah, okay.
And we'll be here.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:22):
All right, and that creates safety because it doesn't
make it bad to be on that bench. It doesn't make it wrong to be on that bench.
We're just on that bench. And what does the world look like from this bench?
Jeff Wetzler (25:35):
Exactly. Exactly. I love it.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:37):
Right. So so meeting them where they are, and I think that was your 1st thing right. Getting to their place helps you be where they are in some kind of physical space, and if you can do that emotionally, then you get there. So right.
there are 2 parts of the middle sentence that you shared in your paper napkin. They reside in the hearts and the minds, you say the hearts and the minds, and I think that's to to infer that there's stuff that we know how to express that might be in our mind. But there's stuff in our heart that we don't know how to express, and might be important or relevant to the situation. But we want to be able to create safety around
(26:21):
getting it wrong while they try to find the words right.
Well, is that what I'm hearing that.
Jeff Wetzler (26:27):
Yeah. Sometimes people just have a feeling. They have an emotional life as well. That doesn't take the form of data points. Bullet points, you know, graphs, logic, etc. But I would say at least half the time. That is the most important thing that we need to know that someone is feeling stressed out or someone's feeling frustrated with us, or someone is feeling
(26:48):
incredibly enthusiastic about an idea that they have that they want to be sharing. And so this is not just a cognitive exercise. This is, you know, one of the things I learned in writing this book is that the Latin root of the word curious means to care. And so when we're asking people other questions, we're not just trying to extract information for them. This is an act of care and empathy, and connecting at the heart level too.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:10):
So what's a curiosity starter? I mean, I like to train people on skills. And one of the things that I like
to work on is curiosity. So what's a good curiosity starter? What's a question that leaders could ask from a position of curiosity
as opposed to a position of assumption or something else?
Jeff Wetzler (27:29):
Yeah, I'll give you one good example. A very common question that leaders ask some version of is.
maybe they'll explain something or give a feedback piece of feedback or direction, and then they'll say so. Does that make sense?
And that the leader, I think, is genuinely wanting to think, wanting to know. Does the other person understand? Do they agree? Are they on board? Are we good?
(27:54):
But if you take that question with the other person's side. 1st of all, it's unclear, is the leader asking, do I understand what they say or do? I agree with what they say?
Second of all, if I say I don't. It doesn't make sense to me. Are they going to think I'm stupid? Or are they going to think I'm not a team player for not doing this 3rd of all. Usually we don't just. It's not just black or white, like I agree or disagree. Some things make sense, or don't. Other things don't make sense. But if you just say, does that make sense? I don't know how to express all the shades of gray that I'm thinking and feeling as well. And so if you just redesign that question a little bit, instead of saying, Does that make sense? You might say to someone.
(28:28):
I'd love to know. What are your reactions to that?
How did that strike you? What you know, what what resonates, what questions does that raise for you? What does that.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:38):
Is that landing? Does that?
Yeah, it doesn't.
Jeff Wetzler (28:41):
How is? And I would say, How is that landing with you? How is that.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:43):
With, you, yeah.
Jeff Wetzler (28:44):
And so just the same way that we design products and services, we can design our questions to get far more access to the hearts and minds of somebody.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:53):
I love it.
And and what kind of practice do you recommend for leaders? Because this is not, you know, like, look, it's we wish that it would be like. Oh, we've made the revelation. I've got the paper napkin that's just turning on the lights in the room, and everything's fine. But that's not the way this works, right.
Jeff Wetzler (29:13):
Yeah, yeah, totally. So there are several practices. I recommend the 1st one actually goes even before we get to a conversation with the other person. It's a mental practice inside our own heads, which is a curiosity practice, and I encourage leaders to start to become aware of how curious you are when you're going into a conversation with someone. And I think if we're honest with ourselves quite often, we're walking in thinking I got the answer here, I want to just make sure it makes sense to them. They're on board. We're good, we're moving, or.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:41):
We're validating what you.
Jeff Wetzler (29:43):
Yeah, validating what you already think. Or you're thinking, this person is going to be difficult. And my job here is to be able to get them past this difficulty to get them on track and do that, and and that I would call very low levels of curiosity. And so I offer to leaders what I call a set of curiosity sparks things that can move you from that lower level of curiosity to higher level of curiosity. Just, for example, asking yourself, what might they be dealing with that I'm not aware of?
(30:08):
What might they know or see that I don't have access to what ideas might they have not been shared with. So there's a set of sparks that we can use just to get ourselves into that kind of curiosity space. And I always start with curiosity. That's step one of the ask approach. Because if you try any of this stuff, but you're thinking to yourself, I'm right. They're wrong. It's going to fall flat.
(30:29):
So you've got to be genuinely curious before you can even make it safe. And if you are genuinely curious, I find that you radiate an energy that people know. Okay, they actually do value what I have to say, because I can see how curious they are. So there's a whole set of curiosity practices I start with. Then there's a set of safety practices, and then 2 others, I'll just say is, one is, you know
(30:50):
quality questions. So we just, we gave one example of a distinction of a you know, a lower quality to a higher quality question. There's about 10 quality question strategies that leaders can master. And I say 10, because it's not 50. It's not 100. It's not a thousand. It's manageable. We can learn our way through 10 things just the same way. We can learn 10 songs on the guitar, or we can learn. I see your guitar back there, or we can learn 10, you know, 10
(31:13):
move the tennis, or whatever else, but start to grow your repertoire of quality questions, and then the final is a set of listening practices as well, which we can talk about if you like.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:22):
Yeah. So so
I think that the bottom line behind all of this stuff is, it's practiced right? You don't learn the 10 songs by looking at the 10 songs or hearing them once. Yeah, some people are like that, and God bless them. I mean, I'm not.
Jeff Wetzler (31:36):
I wish I was like that.
Go ahead, guitar, too.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:38):
Some are great side readers, but for the rest of us we just need to practice these things. So so I think that's that's
really great. Our time is just about done. But I do want to give people that last thing that you talked about those practices that we could add. Let's just give them one example of each.
(31:58):
Go ahead.
Jeff Wetzler (32:00):
Great. So in curiosity, I would say it's a curiosity spark. And if there's 1 practice, I would ask, I would add, it's just simply asking yourself before every interaction, what can I learn from this person?
You should put yourself in that mindset of learning as opposed to fixing or doing, or convincing. If you just do that, that's 1 practice
number 2, creating psychological safety, or what I call make it safe.
(32:23):
I would say the single biggest thing leaders can do is open up before you ask the other person to open up to you. Let them know why you're asking. Let them in on something that's challenging for you. Open up
3 posing quality questions.
replace any question that starts with do does is isn't, would. Would. Those are all closed questions with questions that start with what or how that open it up, that give people a chance to give you greater variety in terms of what they're thinking and feeling.
(32:52):
and then, in terms of listening, here's the power move that I would say that if you do nothing else, if you remember nothing else. From this conversation. Remember this
when someone tells you something before you answer them.
paraphrase what you think you heard them say, and ask if you heard it correctly. I call that tell back and test. It's just say, Hey, I think this is what I heard you say. Did I get that right?
(33:14):
50% of the time when I do that, someone says sort of, but that's not exactly what I meant to say. So then you get better information, but it slows down the conversation, and it also sends a message to them. How much you value them. You're taking your own time, your own breath, your own words to check. If you understand where they're coming from. It changes everything about the dynamic.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:35):
I love what you said about paraphrasing and testing like that is such a powerful tool, because it also the magical thing that happens when you confirm what somebody says
is, they accept your disagreement because you've acknowledged what they said most.
Jeff Wetzler (33:54):
They heard me.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:55):
You heard me, and you disagree. I respect that versus.
Jeff Wetzler (34:00):
Totally.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:00):
You don't even know what I'm talking about.
Jeff Wetzler (34:03):
Yeah, they misunderstood me, and then they'd still made the wrong decision. At least, if I if you feel understood, I love that point. It's such a such a good point.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:12):
Yeah. So it gives you both in that conversation the safety to disagree
when you acknowledge the other person's perspective.
But you can't acknowledge it by saying, I hear you.
You have to acknowledge it by paraphrasing and testing, getting the acknowledgement back. It's not. It's not a 1 way street, and that
(34:35):
such a powerful reminder.
Jeff. I know we could go on for a long time, and and I really do appreciate all of the wisdom of this conversation. It's going to make a big difference in our community.
Speaking of appreciating the difference
this season, at the end of every episode as a shout out to John Ruland, the best selling author of Giftology, the creator of movement around gratitude. More than a decade ago he gave us an inspirational knack, and which said, what you appreciate appreciates. He suddenly passed away this last year, and to pay forward his movement of gratitude and appreciation. We're asking every guest
(35:19):
to shout out someone at the end of our episode.
Who would you like to shadow today?
Jeff Wetzler (35:24):
There's it's hard a choice, because I'm so blessed to have so many incredible mentors. Today I will shout out a woman named Diana Smith, who was one of my mentors in this work.
She was the chair of an applied doctoral program that I got to participate in for 3 years called Human Dynamics and change in organizations.
She is an incredible human being and a brilliant thinker. She just herself put out a book several months ago called remaking the space between us, which is all about, how can we think differently about what's going on between us as a way to live differently in society as well.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:59):
It's powerful. Thank you very much, Jeff.
Jeff Wetzler (36:01):
Thank you. Great to be with you.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:02):
Likewise.
Jeff Weltzler. Welcome to paper and acumen paper napkin wisdom. I'm so happy to have you here with me today.
Jeff Wetzler (00:08):
Oh, it's it's great to be with you. Thank you for having me.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:11):
I'm excited to have you here so excited that I stumbled over my own words on our own brand. So that happens from time to time, and you know again a reminder that you know we don't edit anything out, even if I trip over my own words. So you shared a great napkin with me, and I want to read it out for everybody. The answers you most need are hidden in plain sight.
(00:35):
They reside in the hearts and minds of the people right around you.
You just need to know how to ask in the right ways.
Why did you share that with me?
Jeff Wetzler (00:47):
I mean, that is probably the you know, the premise of so much of what I care about and think about. And I'm doing in the world on multiple fronts these days. I see it everywhere, like I honestly, literally saw it just this morning with one of my kids.
(01:09):
and I'll I'll disguise the example just a tiny bit. But one of my kids is on a, you know, does sports, and their coach is frustrated with them, that they're not practicing that they're not coming to practices and trainings more.
And so the coach is coming down on them putting pressure, whatever. And I said to my kid, why aren't you doing this? And what they said to me is, the practices aren't working for me. I don't think I'm getting better at these practices. The way that the coaching is happening doesn't actually make me feel like I'm improving. So why would I want to go?
(01:39):
And the coach has no idea that this is the experience of the person that they're trying to get better. They just think this kid is not committed enough. Meanwhile my child wants to get better. But the coach has no idea. And so the answer that that coach needs is right there
right under their nose. But they have no idea. And that is so true, I believe, for all of us. When I think about whether we're trying to negotiate something, whether we're trying to get an investor or a funder on board, whether we're trying to retain an employee when we stumble against things when we come up against barriers. Often the answer we need the other person already knows. But they're not telling us for any number of reasons, and to me it kills me because it's like it doesn't have to be this way. If only they knew. If only they found out
(02:26):
everything would be better. They would make better decisions. They'd feel better together. They work better together, and this has happened to me over and over again in my own life as a leader, when I have been leading teams and something is going wrong or about to go wrong, and I only find out later. And I think to myself, if only you had told me I would have rolled up my sleeves. I could have helped, and they're thinking to themselves if I had told you, you might have fired me. And so this breakdown to me is both tragic but also avoidable.
(02:53):
And yeah, I'll stop there.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:55):
No, no, I mean, I think there's so much there. And and
you know, I think I think there's so much there. But one of the things that I think is really interesting is that
most leaders, even not as good ones.
code, word for bad. But even all most people who are in a position of leadership.
(03:16):
Want to know? Like, want to know what's going on right.
Jeff Wetzler (03:19):
Totally.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:20):
So why, if that's
mostly true and I'm let's just deal with generality. If that's mostly true, why is it also mostly true that people don't volunteer that information.
Jeff Wetzler (03:34):
Yeah, such a good question. I think to myself, I would want to know as your leader. Why aren't you telling me this? And so, you know, in doing this research for the book, I came up with a number of reasons why people don't share.
Now, reason number one is fear.
whether it is justified or not.
People don't tell us what we really need to hear, because they're afraid of the impact of what would happen.
(03:56):
They're afraid that we might get upset, that we might get defensive. It might put tension in the relationship. It might, you know, make them look silly. And what's interesting is, the fear doesn't have to be justified for it to be real. It could be a fear that they are creating in their own stories. It could be a fear that came from their experience with a different leader altogether, but nonetheless that fear is there, and that's the number. One reason.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:20):
And you know I like that you that you couched it as being justified or not.
Yeah, right? Because there may. No, you may have given them no basis for that whatsoever.
Jeff Wetzler (04:32):
Totally.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:33):
And and don't we sometimes punish people for not coming forward because we've given them no basis not to come forward.
Jeff Wetzler (04:40):
Absolutely right. That is like, why did you.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:42):
Tell me earlier, right.
Jeff Wetzler (04:44):
And they're thinking, well, here's another reason to be afraid of the person, you know, because now they're punishing me for something else I didn't do fear is not. The only reason that what's interesting. Second reason that I found is that people sometimes don't have the words
like it occurs to them as an intuition. It might occur to them as a gut feeling. Maybe they even have words, but they know if they say the words that they have. It's going to make it worse. They just don't have the constructive, precise, explicit words to say it.
(05:15):
Sometimes, interestingly, it's a math problem. The human brain can process 900 words a minute, it turns out. But the human mouth, on average, can put out about 1, 25 words a minute. So sometimes they're just thinking things, but they don't. You know. It's not coming out of their mouth because other things are coming out of their mouth as well. So those particular words are not coming out.
(05:35):
Another reason why people don't do it is, if you don't share it is they just feel like they're too busy. They don't have the time. They're too tired like, literally. This morning somebody was giving me a piece of advice on something, and my own internal story was, this is not helpful advice that you're giving me.
I didn't say it to him, and the reason I didn't say it to him is, I felt like then I have to have a whole conversation, and I got 3 min left in this conversation. I don't want to extend this conversation, so you know I'm not going to say it. But the biggest reason to be the most interesting reason I found why people don't share
(06:08):
is they don't feel like their opinion is valued. They don't realize that the other person actually wants to know what they have to say. And to me that's the most interesting one, because we, as leaders can do something about that, we can let them know that we actually do want and need their opinion. So often as leaders, we think to ourselves. Well, if there's an issue, they're going to tell me. If they've got feedback, they're going to speak up. If they have an idea, of course they're going to share it. But the other person's thinking, I have no idea that they want to know this, and that's such a fixable thing that we can very easily do something about.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:38):
Yeah, I think it is really interesting, right? The 1st 3 fear don't have the words
to put around their thoughts or the math problem you talked about, or they're too busy, too tired, whatever those are all about them. And one of them, one of these 4, is about us, and they don't feel like their opinion is valued.
(07:02):
So why? Why is it that people come into it with a paradigm? But their opinion is not valued.
Jeff Wetzler (07:11):
Well for a bunch of different reasons. Some people have received messages through society or organizations that they don't have a place, that their voice is not valued, that they're somehow less than
and and so that. And so that's understandable.
Some people have received cultural messages in their life that I don't speak up unless somebody tells me that they want to know what I have to say.
(07:38):
for me. Personally, I've had all kinds of experiences in my life going back to childhood, where I don't necessarily feel safe, putting my voice out there because I was an other, and you know where I was growing up, and sometimes I got whacked for being another. And so I thought to myself, I'm going to stay. I'm going to hold back now. If somebody asked me a question, then I have permission, but other than that, I'm going to keep it to myself as well. All of those different reasons.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:05):
I think it's really interesting.
and I don't think we spend enough time on this. But cultural messaging and cultural norms play a bigger and bigger role in society today, and especially, you know, most of us are working in cross-cultural, multicultural environments, and different people need different things to feel open, and and in many cultures, it's just not okay
(08:32):
to question leadership, not okay. No matter how much you're asked.
Jeff Wetzler (08:36):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:36):
It is just not okay.
Jeff Wetzler (08:38):
100%. I do an exercise sometimes with groups where I say to groups, stand up. If ever as a child, you were sent the message that you shouldn't be asking questions.
and invariably, when I do it with groups, at least a 3rd of the group stands up that they've been told like you, just as kids don't ask questions. One person stood up and said, my parents offered to buy me ice cream if I stopped asking questions because I was asking so many questions. And you know it's kind of funny, but it's also very sad, because it's a message that we send to people like don't question. And then I go on to say, and how many people have gotten the message at work. You shouldn't ask questions, and by the time I finish that almost the entire room is standing up.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:18):
Yeah. And I think the message in school in North America like this is not a multicultural thing, but the message we're told in school is. Sit still.
be quiet, and do as you're told.
Jeff Wetzler (09:28):
Give. Give me the right answer. I'll be the one.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:30):
This is the one answer.
Jeff Wetzler (09:32):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:33):
One answer, and I'm telling you what it is. You give it to me. You get you. If you play this game you get a good grade.
Jeff Wetzler (09:40):
Yeah, and only give it to me when you're asked to give it to me. Don't you know? Don't shout out beforehand or after? Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:46):
Yeah, you know, there are rules around all of these engagements. So so
you know, Jeff, you said that you wish you had known this as a leader.
Obviously you've come upon this as part of your work and in the book you wrote.
But how did you come upon this? You know what what path led you to this Eureka?
Jeff Wetzler (10:08):
So a few different strands of it. My 1st job out of college was at a consulting firm called Monitor Group, and I chose Monitor Group for 2 reasons. One was that their recruitment slogan at the time was a place for optimists to change the world.
and that just spoke to me. But the second reason I chose it was that there was someone who worked there named Chris Argerus, who was very well known as one of the fathers of organizational behavior, and he really kind of developed the whole field of organizational learning.
(10:42):
and I have always been passionate about teaching and learning, and Chris studied the question of how is it that the smartest, most quote, successful, most quote. Educated people are often the worst at learning.
especially learning new things, especially from other people, and he just found this pattern. Over and over again he wrote articles with titles like teaching smart people how to learn. But in addition to diagnosing the problem, and we can talk about what he found. Chris was never satisfied to just say, Okay, I've figured out why the problem exists. He wanted to disrupt that and do something about it. And so he developed a whole methodology
(11:19):
known as productive reasoning or productive interactions that really helps people learn how to interact with other people, that in ways that would actually surface this stuff.
And as I got to start to work with him and his colleagues more and more I had the opportunity to start teaching this material to consultants around the world, and ultimately to our clients around the world.
and quite often I would have the experience of teaching it, and by the end of the day people would say, this thing changed. My life like this is not going to just help me out work. This is going to save my marriage. This is like, you know, the most transformative thing, and I can say it with all humility because I didn't invent it. I was just a messenger of it. This was 25 plus years ago, but it was so powerful for people to see the ways in which they were getting in their own ways, and we can talk about what that methodology looked like. But so that was one strand of it for me, and then I had the opportunity to kind of build upon that with other mentors.
(12:08):
But then I stepped out of consulting, and I went into the arena and I was leading a team of hundreds of people. And that's when I fell flat on my face. That's when I realized, okay, I'm doing what I taught people to do. And still they're not telling me the right answer. They're not telling me what they really think and what I realized, is I had been blind to the lack of psychological safety that people felt around me, especially across lines of difference
(12:30):
power difference. There was a lot of race difference, gender difference, cultural difference, education, different, a whole bunch of different things, and that I was not even taking into account. And so what I realized is I needed to add to the toolkit that I had originally inherited, and ultimately, once I was able to round it out in different kinds of ways. It started to become a foundation for my leadership, and ultimately my coaching and developing of other people around me. And eventually I said, I want to pay this forward. I want to put this out in a way that other people can can access. It.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:59):
So talking about psychological safety, I mean, a lot of people talk about this in leadership and that leaders need to create psychological safety in their teams, and it sounds like a bit of a buzzword, but it also, you know, I've heard some pushback from from smaller entrepreneurs from entrepreneurs of small teams saying.
You know, like we need, I don't have time for this. This is overwhelming. How do I do this?
(13:24):
Because I just need people to get to frickin work like.
Jeff Wetzler (13:27):
Totally.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:28):
I don't get how I do this like where do I? Where do I do this in all of my overwhelm? What would you say.
Jeff Wetzler (13:35):
I would say. 1st of all, I think there's probably some discussion to have about what is this? What is the doing of this? In the 1st place, because I do think that sometimes people think that making it safe for other people means we've got to go Whitewater rafting as a team and do a ropes course, and be nice to everybody all the time, and all that kind of stuff. And that's not what I'm talking about here. What this is is really just creating the conditions, so that if somebody disagrees with you, they're going to tell you, if somebody sees a mistake that you're about to make.
(14:04):
You're gonna find that out. If somebody makes a mistake themselves.
they're going to tell you. And I would say to any leader, any entrepreneur of any size organization. You don't have time to not find that stuff out. You don't have time to find out later that this person knew that your whole
plan was about to tank, because customers don't want it, but they didn't feel safe telling you that as well. So some of it is, I would say, like it's the pay now, or pay later plan, and if you pay later, it's going to be a lot more costly than paying right now.
(14:31):
But then what I would also say is, it doesn't take a lot to create safety. So some of the things that you can do literally to create safety are. Just be a little bit intentional about the time and space and place when you're having the conversation, do it where the other person is going to feel most comfortable. So, for example, I interviewed Ceos of big organizations, and I said to them.
You know Ceos are notorious for not getting the truth out of people. People lie to Ceos. They tell them what it's going to make them look good. What the CEO is going to want to hear, I said to Ceos, how do you get the truth out of people? And they said, It's simple. I would never bring them to my office. Make them sit across this big, intimidating CEO desk from me and assume that they're going to feel safe. Now I'm going to go to them. We're going to do a ride along. We're going to have lunch together. We're going to take a walk. So these are things that you can just do in the normal course of your daily business that just gets you interacting with people.
(15:19):
Second thing you can do is if you're asking someone a question as a you know, as a entrepreneur or business leader.
Just tell them why you're asking the question doesn't take more than 20 seconds to say, look, I'm asking, because I just don't. You know I'm stuck on this, or I don't realize this, or I really value your perspective.
That makes them not guess. And people are so often, especially if there's a lack of safety, suspicious of your motives, and if you can just say No, no, here's why I'm asking, and the more you can just show where you're stuck, or where you're vulnerable, the safer it gets for them. And the last thing I talk about is something that I call radiate resilience, which is just to let them know that you can handle their truth
(15:57):
because people are always gauging. How brittle are you, how defensive are you going to be, how much you're going to punish them if they tell you a hard truth.
and you can just completely inoculate against that by just saying things to them like, I want your most critical feedback. Where is this plan going to fail?
Or I can imagine. If I were in your shoes I might be stuck or frustrated, or whatever just putting those things out there on the table makes it easier.
(16:19):
So the totality of of what I'm saying, I think, takes less than a minute or 2 to do, but can be such powerful high leverage moves just to make it a little safer and easier and more comfortable for people to tell you the truth.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:33):
I want to. I want to retreat to something you said a little while ago to start this segment, and I think this is
massively misunderstood.
When people talk about psychological safety, they conflate it with cupcake carts and team building, don't they? Right like it's like, but I've got the coffee shops, and I've got the this, and I've got the, you know. I'm doing all these things, but they still don't come to me. That's not the same thing right.
Jeff Wetzler (17:02):
Totally that. Yeah, that that is not you. You can do all that stuff.
And I've seen organizations do all that stuff, and people still don't feel safe. Psychological safety comes from people having a sense of connection that they trust you, that they realize where you're coming from, that they know you can handle their truth. That's the kind of stuff that we're talking about here. And this is not soft stuff. This is so that people will give you hard feedback, so that people will admit mistakes so that people will ask for help, so that people give other people help.
(17:29):
That's the hard-nosed business reason why, you'd need enough safety for people to be able to actually be honest.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:35):
Yeah. And I think this is really critically important for people listening. Safety doesn't come
from social activities. Psychological safety is not the same thing as social safety.
Psychological safety comes from doing the work.
Jeff Wetzler (17:49):
Well together.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:50):
You have to be able to work well together, and that's where the safety comes in collaboration. It does not come
from being able to share a beer after work that has nothing to do with it. Almost so. So I really, I really love that you. You set the stage by going to visit them first, st right going to their space, going to visit them. And then you added something else that I like to call, and I borrow this term from a mentor of mine, Jim Estel. He's been on paper napkin wisdom, he calls it the power of, while.
(18:28):
So while you're going for a walk. You have a conversation while you're doing something else. You do this other thing. So you know, while you're going for a ride along, you
create the opportunity to get feedback. So these are opportunities
using the power of while. So you can combine activities. So if you're an entrepreneur of a small team, a leader of a small team, and you're time pressured already. The power of while can be a big solution. Can't it.
Jeff Wetzler (18:56):
Absolutely I love it, love it.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:59):
Right? So so now, here's another thing that I think
leaders do badly when asking for these kinds of things. And it's really related to these devices, isn't it, that we tend to get distracted by those things, or allow those things to distract our teams so that we're flitting in and out of a conversation, and we can appear frustrated
(19:24):
either by what we've received or by the fact that they're picking up their phone and that screens between conversations really needs to be taken out of it, doesn't it? To really build a collaboration.
Jeff Wetzler (19:36):
100%. I mean, I I remember once being in a conversation with someone who I was trying to build a you know, build a collaboration with, and we sat down and he was on his phone.
and I said to him, Oh, I'll give you a minute if you need to finish something, he said, no, no, start talking now. I can listen to you while I'm on my phone. And it was just so off putting to me, I said to myself, I'm never going to work with this person. I don't even give me like a moment of his attention to actually talk about this, and I actually don't think he was able to do the thing he thought he was able to do, which is actually to do 2 things at the exact same time.
(20:10):
And so, you know, even before we get to the place of like, people will see us reacting to what's on our phone and not what's going on with them. It's just so freaking, distracting, like, we can't actually be present and talk about what we talked about earlier, about one of the reasons why people don't share is because they don't think their voice is valued.
If you're on your device, that's a big message to the other person like I got something more important to do than you hear, and it doesn't save you time. So step 4 of the ask approach is, listen to learn. And the 1st thing I say under that is ditch the distractions, because you're not going to hear anything that you need to hear. If you're doing that.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:48):
I also? I love that love that
I love telling them why you're asking the other part that I think is really important.
and I think this this requires a little bit of preparation on the part of the leader, doesn't it? But radiating resilience. Let's talk about this a little bit.
not to say that you're infallible, not to say that you don't have to care about what they have to say, but use use the term
(21:14):
that people are worried about how brittle you are.
Jeff Wetzler (21:17):
Yeah, what does that mean?
Basically. So it can mean a couple of things. One is that sometimes people don't want to hurt you. They care about you, and they think if they're going to tell you some piece of critical feedback, or they're going to tell you why customers don't want your product, or they're an investor that's not going to invest, but for a reason that they don't think you can handle. They don't want to deflate you. And so that's 1 reason. A different version of.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:38):
Pause there for a second, because I think that I wonder if it's
it's more to do with them than it is to do with you. They don't want to be the person that does hurt.
They don't want to do the. They don't want to be the kind of like they're they're so afraid of conflict because they don't want that on them that they may have hurt somebody.
(21:59):
It might not really have to do with you, but it has to do with them, doesn't it?
Jeff Wetzler (22:03):
I I totally agree. People people themselves don't want to be the hurter
Govindh Jayaraman (22:08):
Yeah.
Jeff Wetzler (22:08):
But even still, they that includes an assumption that you will get hurt as well. Correct. And so.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:15):
I just wanted to disassociate from the assumption that they care about.
Jeff Wetzler (22:18):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:19):
They may not care about you as a person they might not even like you.
They may care about themselves, not being the kind of person who's going to make someone else upset, correct.
Jeff Wetzler (22:29):
And so it could be any number of those things. Sometimes they do care about you, sometimes they care about themselves, often it's sort of a mix in between. And maybe if they don't think you're going to get hurt, but they think you're going to be defensive, and they don't want to have to deal with your defensiveness. Or maybe they think you're just the kind of a vindictive kind of person, and you're going to get taken out on them later all kinds of things. But it all comes down to do. They actually think you can handle their truth
(22:52):
in one way or another, and so radiating resilience is basically saying and communicating and demonstrating to to the other person. I can handle your truth, even if it's a hard truth.
That doesn't mean, I'm not going to have a reaction.
I might have a reaction. It might be hard for me to hear. But what I my promise to you is, I'm not going to hold you responsible for my reaction. I'm not going to blame you for making me upset. I might say to you that was really hard for me to hear, and I'm really glad to know that, because now I can do something about it now, I can fix it, or whatever. But it's my relationship to my reaction, and I'm letting them know whatever it is. I'm human. I might have a reaction, but I'm not taking it out on you. I'm not seeing you as the cause of that.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:33):
And so so
I think you you gave us a little Mini script right away, like in your response, yeah. And and it's it's owning whatever emotion that you're feeling, declaring it, saying.
Jeff Wetzler (23:47):
Don't hide.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:47):
Wow, man, that's that surprised me. That's that's alarming.
Jeff Wetzler (23:54):
I didn't see that coming. Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:55):
And not but and I'm so grateful you shared that with me.
Jeff Wetzler (24:00):
Exactly, exactly.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:01):
Right now it sometimes as leaders. We have a need to solve things right away.
But I noticed that you did not include a solution
as part of it, just an acknowledgement.
Jeff Wetzler (24:13):
Just an acknowledgement. Now, perhaps later in the conversation, we might get to what's going on, and you know we haven't even talked about asking questions yet, but a question that you can ask. Someone who's bringing to this is to you know what would be helpful here. Sometimes people just want to be heard. Sometimes people want to be helped.
Sometimes people want to be hugged, and you can say to them what's most helpful. And sometimes when I say that to people on my own team. They say I don't need any help. I just need you to know that I'm going through this, or I need you to know that this was hard for me, and other times they want to get roll up their sleeves and do it. But I agree with you we shouldn't just jump into fix.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:49):
Yeah, it's and I think part of the re part of how we create psychological safety is we and and I heard a great metaphor. It was about parenting.
and the the person the expert was saying, she likened it to a bench, and the bench was an emotion, and she was saying.
(25:11):
we have to just go sit on the bench with them.
And that's okay. Just share the bench. Yeah. And say, we're sitting here.
Jeff Wetzler (25:20):
Yeah, okay.
And we'll be here.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:22):
All right, and that creates safety because it doesn't
make it bad to be on that bench. It doesn't make it wrong to be on that bench.
We're just on that bench. And what does the world look like from this bench?
Jeff Wetzler (25:35):
Exactly. Exactly. I love it.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:37):
Right. So so meeting them where they are, and I think that was your 1st thing right. Getting to their place helps you be where they are in some kind of physical space, and if you can do that emotionally, then you get there. So right.
there are 2 parts of the middle sentence that you shared in your paper napkin. They reside in the hearts and the minds, you say the hearts and the minds, and I think that's to to infer that there's stuff that we know how to express that might be in our mind. But there's stuff in our heart that we don't know how to express, and might be important or relevant to the situation. But we want to be able to create safety around
(26:21):
getting it wrong while they try to find the words right.
Well, is that what I'm hearing that.
Jeff Wetzler (26:27):
Yeah. Sometimes people just have a feeling. They have an emotional life as well. That doesn't take the form of data points. Bullet points, you know, graphs, logic, etc. But I would say at least half the time. That is the most important thing that we need to know that someone is feeling stressed out or someone's feeling frustrated with us, or someone is feeling
(26:48):
incredibly enthusiastic about an idea that they have that they want to be sharing. And so this is not just a cognitive exercise. This is, you know, one of the things I learned in writing this book is that the Latin root of the word curious means to care. And so when we're asking people other questions, we're not just trying to extract information for them. This is an act of care and empathy, and connecting at the heart level too.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:10):
So what's a curiosity starter? I mean, I like to train people on skills. And one of the things that I like
to work on is curiosity. So what's a good curiosity starter? What's a question that leaders could ask from a position of curiosity
as opposed to a position of assumption or something else?
Jeff Wetzler (27:29):
Yeah, I'll give you one good example. A very common question that leaders ask some version of is.
maybe they'll explain something or give a feedback piece of feedback or direction, and then they'll say so. Does that make sense?
And that the leader, I think, is genuinely wanting to think, wanting to know. Does the other person understand? Do they agree? Are they on board? Are we good?
(27:54):
But if you take that question with the other person's side. 1st of all, it's unclear, is the leader asking, do I understand what they say or do? I agree with what they say?
Second of all, if I say I don't. It doesn't make sense to me. Are they going to think I'm stupid? Or are they going to think I'm not a team player for not doing this 3rd of all. Usually we don't just. It's not just black or white, like I agree or disagree. Some things make sense, or don't. Other things don't make sense. But if you just say, does that make sense? I don't know how to express all the shades of gray that I'm thinking and feeling as well. And so if you just redesign that question a little bit, instead of saying, Does that make sense? You might say to someone.
(28:28):
I'd love to know. What are your reactions to that?
How did that strike you? What you know, what what resonates, what questions does that raise for you? What does that.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:38):
Is that landing? Does that?
Yeah, it doesn't.
Jeff Wetzler (28:41):
How is? And I would say, How is that landing with you? How is that.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:43):
With, you, yeah.
Jeff Wetzler (28:44):
And so just the same way that we design products and services, we can design our questions to get far more access to the hearts and minds of somebody.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:53):
I love it.
And and what kind of practice do you recommend for leaders? Because this is not, you know, like, look, it's we wish that it would be like. Oh, we've made the revelation. I've got the paper napkin that's just turning on the lights in the room, and everything's fine. But that's not the way this works, right.
Jeff Wetzler (29:13):
Yeah, yeah, totally. So there are several practices. I recommend the 1st one actually goes even before we get to a conversation with the other person. It's a mental practice inside our own heads, which is a curiosity practice, and I encourage leaders to start to become aware of how curious you are when you're going into a conversation with someone. And I think if we're honest with ourselves quite often, we're walking in thinking I got the answer here, I want to just make sure it makes sense to them. They're on board. We're good, we're moving, or.
Govindh Jayaraman (29:41):
We're validating what you.
Jeff Wetzler (29:43):
Yeah, validating what you already think. Or you're thinking, this person is going to be difficult. And my job here is to be able to get them past this difficulty to get them on track and do that, and and that I would call very low levels of curiosity. And so I offer to leaders what I call a set of curiosity sparks things that can move you from that lower level of curiosity to higher level of curiosity. Just, for example, asking yourself, what might they be dealing with that I'm not aware of?
(30:08):
What might they know or see that I don't have access to what ideas might they have not been shared with. So there's a set of sparks that we can use just to get ourselves into that kind of curiosity space. And I always start with curiosity. That's step one of the ask approach. Because if you try any of this stuff, but you're thinking to yourself, I'm right. They're wrong. It's going to fall flat.
(30:29):
So you've got to be genuinely curious before you can even make it safe. And if you are genuinely curious, I find that you radiate an energy that people know. Okay, they actually do value what I have to say, because I can see how curious they are. So there's a whole set of curiosity practices I start with. Then there's a set of safety practices, and then 2 others, I'll just say is, one is, you know
(30:50):
quality questions. So we just, we gave one example of a distinction of a you know, a lower quality to a higher quality question. There's about 10 quality question strategies that leaders can master. And I say 10, because it's not 50. It's not 100. It's not a thousand. It's manageable. We can learn our way through 10 things just the same way. We can learn 10 songs on the guitar, or we can learn. I see your guitar back there, or we can learn 10, you know, 10
(31:13):
move the tennis, or whatever else, but start to grow your repertoire of quality questions, and then the final is a set of listening practices as well, which we can talk about if you like.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:22):
Yeah. So so
I think that the bottom line behind all of this stuff is, it's practiced right? You don't learn the 10 songs by looking at the 10 songs or hearing them once. Yeah, some people are like that, and God bless them. I mean, I'm not.
Jeff Wetzler (31:36):
I wish I was like that.
Go ahead, guitar, too.
Govindh Jayaraman (31:38):
Some are great side readers, but for the rest of us we just need to practice these things. So so I think that's that's
really great. Our time is just about done. But I do want to give people that last thing that you talked about those practices that we could add. Let's just give them one example of each.
(31:58):
Go ahead.
Jeff Wetzler (32:00):
Great. So in curiosity, I would say it's a curiosity spark. And if there's 1 practice, I would ask, I would add, it's just simply asking yourself before every interaction, what can I learn from this person?
You should put yourself in that mindset of learning as opposed to fixing or doing, or convincing. If you just do that, that's 1 practice
number 2, creating psychological safety, or what I call make it safe.
(32:23):
I would say the single biggest thing leaders can do is open up before you ask the other person to open up to you. Let them know why you're asking. Let them in on something that's challenging for you. Open up
3 posing quality questions.
replace any question that starts with do does is isn't, would. Would. Those are all closed questions with questions that start with what or how that open it up, that give people a chance to give you greater variety in terms of what they're thinking and feeling.
(32:52):
and then, in terms of listening, here's the power move that I would say that if you do nothing else, if you remember nothing else. From this conversation. Remember this
when someone tells you something before you answer them.
paraphrase what you think you heard them say, and ask if you heard it correctly. I call that tell back and test. It's just say, Hey, I think this is what I heard you say. Did I get that right?
(33:14):
50% of the time when I do that, someone says sort of, but that's not exactly what I meant to say. So then you get better information, but it slows down the conversation, and it also sends a message to them. How much you value them. You're taking your own time, your own breath, your own words to check. If you understand where they're coming from. It changes everything about the dynamic.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:35):
I love what you said about paraphrasing and testing like that is such a powerful tool, because it also the magical thing that happens when you confirm what somebody says
is, they accept your disagreement because you've acknowledged what they said most.
Jeff Wetzler (33:54):
They heard me.
Govindh Jayaraman (33:55):
You heard me, and you disagree. I respect that versus.
Jeff Wetzler (34:00):
Totally.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:00):
You don't even know what I'm talking about.
Jeff Wetzler (34:03):
Yeah, they misunderstood me, and then they'd still made the wrong decision. At least, if I if you feel understood, I love that point. It's such a such a good point.
Govindh Jayaraman (34:12):
Yeah. So it gives you both in that conversation the safety to disagree
when you acknowledge the other person's perspective.
But you can't acknowledge it by saying, I hear you.
You have to acknowledge it by paraphrasing and testing, getting the acknowledgement back. It's not. It's not a 1 way street, and that
(34:35):
such a powerful reminder.
Jeff. I know we could go on for a long time, and and I really do appreciate all of the wisdom of this conversation. It's going to make a big difference in our community.
Speaking of appreciating the difference
this season, at the end of every episode as a shout out to John Ruland, the best selling author of Giftology, the creator of movement around gratitude. More than a decade ago he gave us an inspirational knack, and which said, what you appreciate appreciates. He suddenly passed away this last year, and to pay forward his movement of gratitude and appreciation. We're asking every guest
(35:19):
to shout out someone at the end of our episode.
Who would you like to shadow today?
Jeff Wetzler (35:24):
There's it's hard a choice, because I'm so blessed to have so many incredible mentors. Today I will shout out a woman named Diana Smith, who was one of my mentors in this work.
She was the chair of an applied doctoral program that I got to participate in for 3 years called Human Dynamics and change in organizations.
She is an incredible human being and a brilliant thinker. She just herself put out a book several months ago called remaking the space between us, which is all about, how can we think differently about what's going on between us as a way to live differently in society as well.
Govindh Jayaraman (35:59):
It's powerful. Thank you very much, Jeff.
Jeff Wetzler (36:01):
Thank you. Great to be with you.
Govindh Jayaraman (36:02):
Likewise.
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