July 31, 2025 • 32 mins
Introduction Courtney Ramsey, CSP, CPTD, MBA, has spent more than two decades helping overwhelmed managers transform into confident, people-first leaders. After training tens of thousands of supervisors on the front lines of corporate America, she noticed a pattern: even the smartest leaders “hit snooze” on the very conversations and decisions that would propel their teams forward. That observation became her rallying cry and the title of her signature message, “Quit Hitting Snooze!”—a philosophy she unpacks in this energizing episode.
From her viral TEDx talk on tough conversations to her hands-on development programs, Courtney champions a simple truth: leadership begins the moment we stop delaying the work that matters most. In our conversation, she explains how the “snooze button” shows up far beyond the alarm clock—whether we’re postponing a difficult performance dialogue, deferring an innovative idea, or waiting for “perfect timing” before launching a bold initiative.
“We all have those internal alarms telling us, This matters—do it now. Every time we press snooze, we trade momentum for momentary comfort.” — Courtney Ramsey, episode 276
Below, you’ll find a deep dive into her philosophy, why leaders procrastinate, and practical ways to wake up your organization today.
The Snooze Button Metaphor
Courtney’s insight started, quite literally, at 5:00 a.m. Staring at her alarm, she realized how often she postponed confronting things that felt uncomfortable—only to watch them grow into bigger problems. The snooze button became a metaphor for the micro-moments when leaders choose avoidance over action.
“If you delay the conversation when it’s small, you’re guaranteeing you’ll have to deal with it when it’s big.” — Courtney
Discomfort ≠ Danger
Many managers equate discomfort with risk. Courtney reframes it: discomfort is simply a sign that growth is about to happen. By normalizing discomfort—especially around accountability and feedback—leaders build resilience muscles that ripple through the team culture.
Getting Intentional About Urgency
Courtney challenges the common mantra “move fast and break things.” Urgency without intentionality leads to burnout; intentional urgency, on the other hand, creates clear priorities and decisive action.
“Quit hitting snooze doesn’t mean rush blindly. It means decide purposefully—and then move.” — Govindh
Momentum Compounds
Small
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Courtney Ramsey. Welcome to paper. Napkin wisdom. I'm excited to have our conversation today.
Courtney Ramsey (00:08):
Thank you so much for having me thrilled to be here.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:10):
Yeah. So 1st of all, for people listening, Courtney was extremely generous. I had to reschedule last minute. And here we are. So you're smiling and ready to go, and you shared a really well, I think interesting, considering what we're going to be talking about, and I wanted to give you the preface that we kind of
broke the rule of your napkin in setting up from yesterday to today. But your paper napkin was quit hitting snooze. Why did you
(00:39):
correct? It's me.
Courtney Ramsey (00:41):
So it's funny I've had this philosophy now since about 2018, and the way the philosophy came about is I was in this Speakers Academy, because I do lots of public speaking for a living, and I had to think of like a speech to be like the culmination of this Academy, and I was like, what is it? What is it? What can I think about? And somehow, just out of nowhere, this quit hitting snooze philosophy hit me, and I think it's really about
(01:06):
a philosophy that I've kind of stuck with my life like. I don't do anything fast, like I am a slow mover. And I like to think about things. I like to get other people's opinions, and sometimes I can overthink to the point where it's it's like that age, old thing, analysis, paralysis, and it finally hit me. Sometimes you just gotta quit hitting snooze. And you've just got to do the things, and it's not so much about
(01:29):
you know, not thinking things through and not being thoughtful about how you're going to accomplish something, but it's about doing the right things that, you know are going to be impactful, that you also know you've been avoiding, because sometimes choosing that courage over the comfort can really impact your life in a very positive way.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:50):
I think that's really amazing.
I want to. I want to go back to the very 1st thing you said.
You said that this philosophy.
and I think you're deliberate about the word philosophy because it wasn't a thought. It wasn't this like
this fleeting thing? It became a philosophy. So why did you? Why are you calling this a philosophy? I think there's significance to that term.
(02:15):
Am I wrong.
Courtney Ramsey (02:16):
I agree. No, I think I think you caught that really quickly. It's, you know, there's there's sometimes you. You stumble across things in your life that really change the way you look at life
for me. This was that
I really it kind of in one quick sentence, 3 words it put into focus for me how in the past X years of my life.
(02:38):
that thing I don't move fast. I like to overthink. I like to really choose the perfect time when in reality sometimes there is no perfect time. So in 1, 3 sentence, 3 word sentence, it crystallized for me
how I need to start looking at life differently, because sometimes we hit snooze so often that we fall into this. Oh, I'll do it tomorrow. I'll do it one day, and then one day never arrives, and then you have lots of big regrets.
(03:08):
So for me, it was a philosophy that I could start thinking in my head. Okay, Courtney, are you snoozing on? This? Is this something that you're putting off when you know you need to do it? If you just got it over with life could be so much easier and better, even if sometimes on the other side of that thing.
it doesn't go the way you want it to.
at least. Now, you know, and you're not wasting all that time and energy and brain real estate mulling over and rethinking about it. And you know, having it on the back of your mind as something you have to do. But you keep putting off.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:41):
So it feels it feels like, okay. So you talked about how
many times in the past you you
don't do anything fast. You were. You even said that I don't do anything fast right? And and I think in that there are a lot of people that don't align with that that people are. They're
they get caught overthinking things. They get caught thinking too deeply about things and and just running in a cycle. And I love how you talked about it being brain real estate, you're just taking up space because this space is finite in terms of what we can give our.
Courtney Ramsey (04:15):
It is.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:16):
So talk about this moment when you, when you catch yourself so how do you catch yourself
reaching for the alarm clock and pressing snooze metaphor.
How do you, when it comes to a decision? How do you notice that now versus the way you were.
Courtney Ramsey (04:35):
For me. I notice it shows up as anxiety.
So you know, we all have those things that wake us up at 2 or 3 in the morning, and your brain starts spinning on it almost immediately when you come into consciousness. And you're like, Oh, it just hits you out of nowhere. That for me is a big old red flag that I am hitting snooze on this thing. I need to take care of it sooner rather than later.
(04:58):
So for for me, anxiety is waking up in 2 or 3 in the morning. But it's also that gut feeling we're just like, oh, it's weighing on you, and that's when you know I've got to pay attention to this. And I need to do. I need to make a decision.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:10):
So are you, are you now?
So some people get really hard on themselves when they notice this pattern coming back, up and up and up and up and up. It sounds like you're gentler with yourself than that. You're just noticing it, and I think there's a part of having a philosophy that works for you is also being gentler with
(05:31):
the signs that you need to evoke that philosophy, that learning that step forward and it sounds like you're you're just noticing it. You're you're not admonishing yourself. You're not adding another cycle of beating yourself up. You're just moving forward. Am I wrong in that.
Courtney Ramsey (05:47):
I think I'm working towards that. You know. I think I am that person who is definitely a recovering perfectionist. The person who really wants to be more compassionate towards myself, and it's hard because you just have. I'm the girl who has the high expectations of myself, probably more so than anyone else would ever have of me.
(06:08):
But I know that's not the healthiest way to be
so to your point. I think I'm working towards becoming more compassionate, more gentle, more patient. And in in return, I'm also working to do the same towards how I feel about other people, because I think we're all just
doing the best we can with what we got.
You know.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:25):
For sure.
So you you notice the anxiety it shows up for you as anxiety, these waking thoughts, or this
pit of your stomach feeling. And then
you talked about choosing courage over comfort.
Do you have a process that you follow, or maybe a method that you follow to make that choice, to move forward.
Courtney Ramsey (06:51):
well, I find that a lot of times the things I'm most stressed over the things that i'm hitting suze on the most often have to deal with other people.
I don't know if that works for you, too, but sometimes it's the conversations. You know. You need to have the conflict. You know, you need to address, and it's 1 of the reasons I'm so passionate about teaching other people a process to have tough conversations. So the 1st thing I usually try to do is, I think, about
(07:17):
what's the worst that can happen? You know that kind of perspective shifting where you think? Okay, if I don't do this, what's the worst that can happen? Or if I do do this, what's the worst that can happen? And can I live with that and most of the time the answer is, yes, you know I'd rather sometimes know and get it out of my head, and at least have some sort of resolution than to spend the next 5, 1015 years of my life spinning like a truck stuck in the mud over this. So I ask myself that question, and then I start thinking about my intent.
(07:46):
What do I want for myself? And what do I want for the other person? What do I want in the long term? And how can I work towards vocalizing that intent?
I don't know about you, but a lot of times when you have conversations that don't go so well, or you have conflict, that
when you try to talk about it it becomes worse, not better.
(08:06):
I think it's because the other person might be assuming negative intent rather than assuming positive intent. So I find that if you can just say the thing out loud and try to level. Set that conversation before you go into it.
That can be really helpful, and not only keeping you on track mentally as to why you're even going through this hard, awkward, uncomfortable thing. But it helps the other person also realize that you're coming from a good place.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:36):
Hmm!
You know, I think that's really interesting. So number one.
really looking at what's the worst that could happen on both sides, I think one of the things that we tend to do is think about what's the worst that could happen if things don't go as planned. But you you're saying, What if you do it? And still the worst happens. And I think that's something that
(09:01):
dissuades people from acting still. But you're looking at what could happen either way, and.
Courtney Ramsey (09:08):
Either way.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:08):
That that's a possibility. And I like that unique lens. I think that's a different way of looking at it. The other thing that I think is really interesting is
people there's a lot of. Obviously, there's a lot of very good work that's been done around intent, you know, holding a positive.
absolutely
a loving intention before a difficult and controversial conversation, making sure that you're clear on that. But you're taking it like one step further than that, and declaring that intent clearly
(09:35):
right, so.
Courtney Ramsey (09:36):
Correct.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:36):
Are you actually? Just so, I understand. You're in the conversation before you begin. You say, Hey, I just want to make sure that I let you know that I really care about you, and I want this to work out. Well.
so can we have that in the front of our minds before we continue our conversation. Is that the kind of way.
Courtney Ramsey (09:59):
That's basically it. That's exactly that's exactly it. So let's pretend that you and I are business partners. And we maybe you said something that really hurt my feelings to the point where I
but to the point where I can't get over it right, and I know I need to discuss it with you. I can either keep sitting here and ruminating over it and trying to let it go, or I can just have a conversation with you right, so I might come to you and say, you know what
(10:24):
I really care about you as my friend and as my business partner, and I know that you and I care about each other, and we want to have a strong relationship. There's something that came up the other day that I'm having a hard time letting go, but I know if we talk about it together we can get through it. Would you be willing to talk about that with me?
Govindh Jayaraman (10:42):
That's awesome.
Courtney Ramsey (10:43):
And now, hopefully, you know, coming in. Oh, Courtney cares! She already said. We can get through it if we just talk about it. So this is not like an end to our friendship or our business partnership. Right hopefully, that would perk your ears up and make you lean in and say, absolutely, Courtney, let's talk about it.
So that's kind of the the state of it.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:02):
I love that, and I love that. You're also not adding what a lot of people do in that is an assumption.
At least I didn't hear it, which was saying.
I know you would never want to do anything to hurt me. You didn't say that you didn't add you didn't project an assumption onto it. You simply stayed in intention for the moment.
(11:27):
In the present moment, and then flipped to, hey? But this thing happened, and I haven't been able to let it go, which actually is very vulnerable, because you're actually speaking of where you
deal with things in anxiety, right? That you hold that forward.
Courtney Ramsey (11:41):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:43):
Yeah, that for other people who maybe don't have. If you know, I asked you how it shows up for you, and it shows up in anxiety, but it can show up in different ways for other people. Right? It can show up.
Courtney Ramsey (11:53):
For sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:54):
And and you know, stress has this different way of showing up for different people. So.
Being
declarative and honest about how it shows up for you probably adds some texture and context to the conversation that builds that bridge around vulnerability, doesn't it?
Courtney Ramsey (12:13):
Agreed, agreed, and I think the vulnerability part is really hard for a lot of people. But I found that saying that part out loud verbally, can really humanize you and help the other person, I like to say, keep their defense wall down.
because if I come at you, and in a way, and I say something that's going to make those defenses go up, or you're kind of on guard. It's really hard for me to get those defenses back down for us to have that conversation and be in the moment. But if I can be vulnerable with you, and you know I'm uncomfortable, or I'm hurting, or
(12:46):
I'm actually nervous about having this conversation. And I say that out loud that humanizing quality can really help people stay in the right place where they're psychologically safe enough to have that conversation.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:00):
Soup.
Really, I really love this. Let's let's tease this out a little bit.
Somewhere out there right now. Someone's listening, and they're saying, Well, wait a minute.
I don't really want to be all that vulnerable with a bunch of people I don't want to really like show that I'm hurt, or weak, or sad, or mad, or glad.
Courtney Ramsey (13:23):
What would you say to that person?
I get it.
I would say, I completely understand where you're coming from, because when you think about how our society is. We've been conditioned to not show weakness. Think about social media. We only show the highlights of our life. We show everything going right. We show us at our absolute best, even when we're faking it. But when you think about it, we all have those vulnerable minutes and moments of our lives, and a lot of times we just wear a mask to cover it up. I would argue that even though it's super uncomfortable.
(13:57):
the more you can admit to that vulnerability, even if you just quickly mention it. It's going to help you in the long run. But it does take. It's a different. It's a shift, because that's not what we're taught. And that's not how we're programmed our entire life. But it really does help the other person understand that you're coming at this conversation or this conflict resolution from a good place. And you're not all macho ego. Let's you know I'm gonna figure this out. We're gonna put you in your place. It's not about that.
(14:26):
It's about coming at this from 2 people who earnestly want to make our relationship better.
And I'm going to be human enough to tell you I'm hurt right. It's it's hard, though.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:37):
Yeah, it is hard. And what I really think is really powerful about what you just did. And I hope people listening will notice this
when I, when I challenge you about, how would you handle this? The 1st thing you did was acknowledge it right. Say I get it.
and I think that acknowledging how somebody else might be showing up is a great way
(15:02):
to find some common ground, because it's easy to do. It's easy to acknowledge that somebody might be feeling hesitant.
Courtney Ramsey (15:09):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:10):
Challenge with something right?
So so I think that was really powerful that you did, and you just sort of dropped it right there. The the other thing that I let's let's explore this from a different perspective. You talked about.
Being business partners or friends. And that infers a closer relationship.
Is this the kind of thing that can also work with
(15:31):
people that you're less closely associated with. Maybe it's a vendor.
Courtney Ramsey (15:35):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:36):
Flyer, or, you know, infrequent customer, how was work there.
Courtney Ramsey (15:42):
Yeah. So actually, I think it's even more important when you're having a difficult conversation with someone. Maybe you're not as close to because they don't know you, and they don't know your heart. They have very limited data points of who you are and what you're about. So when you think about that that leaves open data to their brain for them to just make assumptions and draw conclusions based on the very few data points they have. So if anything.
(16:08):
it's more important to have an intent statement, as I call it, to kick off a tough conversation with like a vendor who maybe you've had 2 interactions with, because then again, they are hearing you out loud. Say you care you want to resolve this. You're coming at this from a good place, so please don't think I'm coming at this with negative intent.
(16:30):
I think intent statements are important, no matter when you start a conversation, because sometimes, even with like your spouse, but maybe you've been married for 20 years. They still need to know you're coming at this from a good place, but it's especially important when someone doesn't know you all that well, and they don't have a lot of history with you.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:47):
That's really, that's a really important reminder. I think one of the things that you know we talk a lot about in paper napkin wisdom is connection before content that you. It's important to connect with people as individuals, as humans, as people before you dive into anything else. And if you do that
then, and you do it authentically. You can't do it. It's not.
Courtney Ramsey (17:09):
Like a checklist.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:10):
That you're going down and going. Yep, check connection. But if you've actually connected with somebody, it is
beautiful lubricant for the conversation that follows right, isn't it? And very true. And I think that
that's a very insightful
point that you made that with people you don't know. They have very limited data points about you. It's almost all filled in the gap by assumption.
(17:35):
Exactly right? So it's so important to dispel that and I think that's really insightful.
What what do you?
What are the other benefits that you've seen of this intent statement in a conversation?
Maybe monument in that conversation, but universally like energetically that follows, what does it open up for you? Otherwise.
Courtney Ramsey (17:58):
Hmm!
That's a great question, energetically. You know I don't do a great job of setting my intention for the day, like you hear people waking up, and they set their intention for the day. And this is what I'm trying to do. I don't do the best of that. I'm trying to get better at that. But I love having almost like a plan, because I really do think what you focus on
(18:20):
is is what you focus on right, and that can absolutely come into fruition, because that is where you're placing your energy. So I think the more we can set our intentions the more we go focus our energy on that
outcome. And it we have a better chance of reaching the things we really want.
It's definitely something I'm working on, though.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:40):
But so you're almost using the plant. The tree analogy, right? Like, you know, the best time to set your attention may be in a journal
80 years ago.
The morning, however.
Courtney Ramsey (18:49):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:50):
The next best time is right now.
Courtney Ramsey (18:52):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:53):
So so just because you didn't do it earlier doesn't mean you can't do it. 12 times during the day.
Courtney Ramsey (18:59):
Correct. Right? I actually did that with you. Yeah, before we jumped on this call. I was like, you know, I just I don't not sure what came out of this conversation, because what I love about you is you are very organic, and how you do your podcast but I just hope that the right things come out for whoever might be listening to this, podcast with you and I for what they need to hear. You know. So you're right. I like that. The tree analogy is great.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:22):
Did you think of a worst case scenario? By the way.
Courtney Ramsey (19:24):
Not with this one, not with this one. No, I did not.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:27):
All right. I appreciate your faith. So so that's really great. I really, I really think there's a lot of power in that. And and and I hadn't
connected the dots on this intent statement being an opportunity to reframe several points during the day. It almost is a.
Courtney Ramsey (19:45):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:46):
It's almost like a.
you know, in monopoly. When you get into jail it's a get out of jail card that you have all the time, and the jail is your own thinking, the prison of your own mind in some ways.
Courtney Ramsey (19:56):
It's a really good. It's a good analogy. Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:59):
So that's that's I'm really struck by this. So so I love. I love this idea around, you know.
Going back, you said you said that sometimes we're
often hitting snooze around difficult conversations with other people.
(20:19):
Do you feel that? Do you feel that we hit snooze on difficult conversations with ourselves as well.
Courtney Ramsey (20:26):
Oh.
yes, we absolutely do, and when you think about it, those are the most important conversations of all. The conversations you have with yourself are the most important conversations, because there's so much of of what we're doing every day. That is a result of those conversations you're having with yourself.
(20:47):
and I know me personally. I've I've hit snooze on lots of things when it comes to. You really need to do a better job of XY and Z. Or I would really love to be the person who does this thing. It's very easy to put yourself last.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:01):
So how
you how do you? What's the what's the preamble to that conversation with yourself? You gave us the what's the worst that can happen either way, and the statement of intent when it comes to starting conversations with other people. But how do you start that conversation with yourself?
Courtney Ramsey (21:18):
Hmm!
I think. 1st and foremost, you have to make the space to have the conversation with yourself.
I don't know about you, but I feel like I have a thousand plates spinning in my head at all times, not to mention I have some Adhd tendencies, so that I feel like there's almost like a pinball machine going on in my head. It's like it's just always things are bouncing around. So 1st and foremost, making space to have that conversation and trying to get quiet
(21:47):
for you to actually think things through.
That's the the 1st and foremost thing. And then I start thinking about my long term outcomes. And and I really I don't change the process too much. I really think about. If I don't do this.
what's going to happen if I do do this, what's going to happen? And a lot of times what
(22:09):
serves me the most is thinking about potentially the regret I would have for not moving forward with something.
For example, I left my corporate position with Jcpenney here in the States back in 2017, and
I had to make a really hard decision to leave a job that I really loved for the chance to start my own business, and that was scary. Anytime you you quit a well paying job with benefits and a paycheck right? And I essentially went back to paying myself my starting salary out of college. It was scary, scary, scary. But I thought to myself, If I don't do this.
(22:48):
am I going to regret this when I'm 65, 75, 85? And the answer was a resounding yes, so I thought to myself, the worst that could happen is, I'm not going to be able to make ends meet. But you know what that is, what driving uber
and waiting tables is for. If I have to go back to the cheesecake factory and wait some tables, I can do that because that was darn good money.
(23:10):
And I really thought about that, too, like, what's
are you going to regret this if you don't try it? And if the answer is yes, you need to push forward.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:21):
You know, it's really funny that you say that I recently had a really powerful conversation with a gentleman by the name of John Sleeman. John Sleeman built one of the largest brewing companies
in Canada from Scratch, and you know he started in the eighties and built it up to this amazing brand. And and you know, becoming a big beer company is difficult business because you're competing against 1 billion dollar companies. But he had that same core philosophy. What's the worst that could happen? And am I okay with that? And he was like, so he literally said, What's the big deal? I go work at Mcdonald's for a while. It's going to be okay.
(23:59):
and.
Courtney Ramsey (23:59):
Video.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:00):
Sitting here. I'm sitting here like anywhere
you go in that part of the world that he's from. You see, these big Sleeman trucks driving all over the place.
But
to hear that from him and then hear that sort of echoed from you is really really a powerful reminder that anchoring yourself that I'm gonna be okay.
Courtney Ramsey (24:22):
You are.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:22):
Is so liberating, isn't it?
Courtney Ramsey (24:25):
It is, it is, and sometimes it's hard to convince yourself of that. But when you think about it, you've always been okay. You've always gotten through hard things in your life you've gotten through. If you were to really start to list out all the things you've gotten through in your life, you would probably be amazed.
So I think we just have to remind ourselves we've gotten through tough times before we'll get through them again. And I know, you know, resilience is something you're looking at as a kind of an overall general theme for this year. But that's how we build up more resilience as we get through the hard stuff. You don't read about it in a book. You live it.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:56):
Right, and and and when you get a chance to take these moments, either in conversation with other people
or in conversation with yourself, part of it is, you're reminding yourself of
the path that you've traveled, the learnings you've had, and nothing builds momentum like that kind of recognition, right? So that gets you off this new.
Courtney Ramsey (25:22):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:23):
Doesn't it.
Courtney Ramsey (25:24):
It does, it can. If you let yourself. You've got to be gentle enough going back to your gentleness. Philosophy, right? You've got to be gentle enough and compassionate with yourself. To almost speak to yourself like your best friend would be speaking to you. I know we've all heard this before, too right, but sometimes we can be so harsh with ourself. What would you say to your best friend when they're struggling with moving forward? You would probably remind them of all the success they've had in the past.
(25:49):
and just like you said, Can you work at Mcdonald's if you had to? Absolutely right? So if we can. If we could just all come up that philosophy, too, of just speaking to yourself as you would someone you truly cared about.
we would find those conversations with ourselves do go better and easier.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:06):
That's that's amazing.
So, Courtney, this brings us to the stage in our conversation, where I not only appreciate you, but I want to do a shout out to a former guest of ours. His name was John Rulin, wrote a great book called Giftology, but before he became
well known for his legacy. He shared a very inspiring napkin with us, which was what you appreciate appreciates, and I think you've given us a lens on that. And as a hat tip to him. He passed away rather suddenly.
(26:41):
and we've been sort of evoking his legacy with every paper, napkin conversation that we have by asking our guests to shout out someone at the end of the conversation, so laying some appreciation on the world and paying it forward, paying John's legacy forward. Is there someone you'd like to shout out.
Courtney Ramsey (27:00):
Yes, I would love to shout out my husband, Brad, because back in the day when I was considering leaving that corporate job, he was the one who put the stamp of approval on it and almost gave the okay now, and I don't want to say that sounds a little funny, like, no one should have to okay your decisions. But when you're in a partnership, especially a marriage, it matters right what the other person is doing and thinking, and whether or not they're on board with it, and I could not have done all that I've done since 2017
(27:29):
without his support, without his genuine belief in me, so I want to shout him out and thank him for all of that, because I feel like he's a big part of of why I'm able to do what I do.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:41):
That's powerful. Thank you, Courtney.
Courtney Ramsey (27:44):
Thank you.
Courtney Ramsey. Welcome to paper. Napkin wisdom. I'm excited to have our conversation today.
Courtney Ramsey (00:08):
Thank you so much for having me thrilled to be here.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:10):
Yeah. So 1st of all, for people listening, Courtney was extremely generous. I had to reschedule last minute. And here we are. So you're smiling and ready to go, and you shared a really well, I think interesting, considering what we're going to be talking about, and I wanted to give you the preface that we kind of
broke the rule of your napkin in setting up from yesterday to today. But your paper napkin was quit hitting snooze. Why did you
(00:39):
correct? It's me.
Courtney Ramsey (00:41):
So it's funny I've had this philosophy now since about 2018, and the way the philosophy came about is I was in this Speakers Academy, because I do lots of public speaking for a living, and I had to think of like a speech to be like the culmination of this Academy, and I was like, what is it? What is it? What can I think about? And somehow, just out of nowhere, this quit hitting snooze philosophy hit me, and I think it's really about
(01:06):
a philosophy that I've kind of stuck with my life like. I don't do anything fast, like I am a slow mover. And I like to think about things. I like to get other people's opinions, and sometimes I can overthink to the point where it's it's like that age, old thing, analysis, paralysis, and it finally hit me. Sometimes you just gotta quit hitting snooze. And you've just got to do the things, and it's not so much about
(01:29):
you know, not thinking things through and not being thoughtful about how you're going to accomplish something, but it's about doing the right things that, you know are going to be impactful, that you also know you've been avoiding, because sometimes choosing that courage over the comfort can really impact your life in a very positive way.
Govindh Jayaraman (01:50):
I think that's really amazing.
I want to. I want to go back to the very 1st thing you said.
You said that this philosophy.
and I think you're deliberate about the word philosophy because it wasn't a thought. It wasn't this like
this fleeting thing? It became a philosophy. So why did you? Why are you calling this a philosophy? I think there's significance to that term.
(02:15):
Am I wrong.
Courtney Ramsey (02:16):
I agree. No, I think I think you caught that really quickly. It's, you know, there's there's sometimes you. You stumble across things in your life that really change the way you look at life
for me. This was that
I really it kind of in one quick sentence, 3 words it put into focus for me how in the past X years of my life.
(02:38):
that thing I don't move fast. I like to overthink. I like to really choose the perfect time when in reality sometimes there is no perfect time. So in 1, 3 sentence, 3 word sentence, it crystallized for me
how I need to start looking at life differently, because sometimes we hit snooze so often that we fall into this. Oh, I'll do it tomorrow. I'll do it one day, and then one day never arrives, and then you have lots of big regrets.
(03:08):
So for me, it was a philosophy that I could start thinking in my head. Okay, Courtney, are you snoozing on? This? Is this something that you're putting off when you know you need to do it? If you just got it over with life could be so much easier and better, even if sometimes on the other side of that thing.
it doesn't go the way you want it to.
at least. Now, you know, and you're not wasting all that time and energy and brain real estate mulling over and rethinking about it. And you know, having it on the back of your mind as something you have to do. But you keep putting off.
Govindh Jayaraman (03:41):
So it feels it feels like, okay. So you talked about how
many times in the past you you
don't do anything fast. You were. You even said that I don't do anything fast right? And and I think in that there are a lot of people that don't align with that that people are. They're
they get caught overthinking things. They get caught thinking too deeply about things and and just running in a cycle. And I love how you talked about it being brain real estate, you're just taking up space because this space is finite in terms of what we can give our.
Courtney Ramsey (04:15):
It is.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:16):
So talk about this moment when you, when you catch yourself so how do you catch yourself
reaching for the alarm clock and pressing snooze metaphor.
How do you, when it comes to a decision? How do you notice that now versus the way you were.
Courtney Ramsey (04:35):
For me. I notice it shows up as anxiety.
So you know, we all have those things that wake us up at 2 or 3 in the morning, and your brain starts spinning on it almost immediately when you come into consciousness. And you're like, Oh, it just hits you out of nowhere. That for me is a big old red flag that I am hitting snooze on this thing. I need to take care of it sooner rather than later.
(04:58):
So for for me, anxiety is waking up in 2 or 3 in the morning. But it's also that gut feeling we're just like, oh, it's weighing on you, and that's when you know I've got to pay attention to this. And I need to do. I need to make a decision.
Govindh Jayaraman (05:10):
So are you, are you now?
So some people get really hard on themselves when they notice this pattern coming back, up and up and up and up and up. It sounds like you're gentler with yourself than that. You're just noticing it, and I think there's a part of having a philosophy that works for you is also being gentler with
(05:31):
the signs that you need to evoke that philosophy, that learning that step forward and it sounds like you're you're just noticing it. You're you're not admonishing yourself. You're not adding another cycle of beating yourself up. You're just moving forward. Am I wrong in that.
Courtney Ramsey (05:47):
I think I'm working towards that. You know. I think I am that person who is definitely a recovering perfectionist. The person who really wants to be more compassionate towards myself, and it's hard because you just have. I'm the girl who has the high expectations of myself, probably more so than anyone else would ever have of me.
(06:08):
But I know that's not the healthiest way to be
so to your point. I think I'm working towards becoming more compassionate, more gentle, more patient. And in in return, I'm also working to do the same towards how I feel about other people, because I think we're all just
doing the best we can with what we got.
You know.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:25):
For sure.
So you you notice the anxiety it shows up for you as anxiety, these waking thoughts, or this
pit of your stomach feeling. And then
you talked about choosing courage over comfort.
Do you have a process that you follow, or maybe a method that you follow to make that choice, to move forward.
Courtney Ramsey (06:51):
well, I find that a lot of times the things I'm most stressed over the things that i'm hitting suze on the most often have to deal with other people.
I don't know if that works for you, too, but sometimes it's the conversations. You know. You need to have the conflict. You know, you need to address, and it's 1 of the reasons I'm so passionate about teaching other people a process to have tough conversations. So the 1st thing I usually try to do is, I think, about
(07:17):
what's the worst that can happen? You know that kind of perspective shifting where you think? Okay, if I don't do this, what's the worst that can happen? Or if I do do this, what's the worst that can happen? And can I live with that and most of the time the answer is, yes, you know I'd rather sometimes know and get it out of my head, and at least have some sort of resolution than to spend the next 5, 1015 years of my life spinning like a truck stuck in the mud over this. So I ask myself that question, and then I start thinking about my intent.
(07:46):
What do I want for myself? And what do I want for the other person? What do I want in the long term? And how can I work towards vocalizing that intent?
I don't know about you, but a lot of times when you have conversations that don't go so well, or you have conflict, that
when you try to talk about it it becomes worse, not better.
(08:06):
I think it's because the other person might be assuming negative intent rather than assuming positive intent. So I find that if you can just say the thing out loud and try to level. Set that conversation before you go into it.
That can be really helpful, and not only keeping you on track mentally as to why you're even going through this hard, awkward, uncomfortable thing. But it helps the other person also realize that you're coming from a good place.
Govindh Jayaraman (08:36):
Hmm!
You know, I think that's really interesting. So number one.
really looking at what's the worst that could happen on both sides, I think one of the things that we tend to do is think about what's the worst that could happen if things don't go as planned. But you you're saying, What if you do it? And still the worst happens. And I think that's something that
(09:01):
dissuades people from acting still. But you're looking at what could happen either way, and.
Courtney Ramsey (09:08):
Either way.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:08):
That that's a possibility. And I like that unique lens. I think that's a different way of looking at it. The other thing that I think is really interesting is
people there's a lot of. Obviously, there's a lot of very good work that's been done around intent, you know, holding a positive.
absolutely
a loving intention before a difficult and controversial conversation, making sure that you're clear on that. But you're taking it like one step further than that, and declaring that intent clearly
(09:35):
right, so.
Courtney Ramsey (09:36):
Correct.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:36):
Are you actually? Just so, I understand. You're in the conversation before you begin. You say, Hey, I just want to make sure that I let you know that I really care about you, and I want this to work out. Well.
so can we have that in the front of our minds before we continue our conversation. Is that the kind of way.
Courtney Ramsey (09:59):
That's basically it. That's exactly that's exactly it. So let's pretend that you and I are business partners. And we maybe you said something that really hurt my feelings to the point where I
but to the point where I can't get over it right, and I know I need to discuss it with you. I can either keep sitting here and ruminating over it and trying to let it go, or I can just have a conversation with you right, so I might come to you and say, you know what
(10:24):
I really care about you as my friend and as my business partner, and I know that you and I care about each other, and we want to have a strong relationship. There's something that came up the other day that I'm having a hard time letting go, but I know if we talk about it together we can get through it. Would you be willing to talk about that with me?
Govindh Jayaraman (10:42):
That's awesome.
Courtney Ramsey (10:43):
And now, hopefully, you know, coming in. Oh, Courtney cares! She already said. We can get through it if we just talk about it. So this is not like an end to our friendship or our business partnership. Right hopefully, that would perk your ears up and make you lean in and say, absolutely, Courtney, let's talk about it.
So that's kind of the the state of it.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:02):
I love that, and I love that. You're also not adding what a lot of people do in that is an assumption.
At least I didn't hear it, which was saying.
I know you would never want to do anything to hurt me. You didn't say that you didn't add you didn't project an assumption onto it. You simply stayed in intention for the moment.
(11:27):
In the present moment, and then flipped to, hey? But this thing happened, and I haven't been able to let it go, which actually is very vulnerable, because you're actually speaking of where you
deal with things in anxiety, right? That you hold that forward.
Courtney Ramsey (11:41):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:43):
Yeah, that for other people who maybe don't have. If you know, I asked you how it shows up for you, and it shows up in anxiety, but it can show up in different ways for other people. Right? It can show up.
Courtney Ramsey (11:53):
For sure.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:54):
And and you know, stress has this different way of showing up for different people. So.
Being
declarative and honest about how it shows up for you probably adds some texture and context to the conversation that builds that bridge around vulnerability, doesn't it?
Courtney Ramsey (12:13):
Agreed, agreed, and I think the vulnerability part is really hard for a lot of people. But I found that saying that part out loud verbally, can really humanize you and help the other person, I like to say, keep their defense wall down.
because if I come at you, and in a way, and I say something that's going to make those defenses go up, or you're kind of on guard. It's really hard for me to get those defenses back down for us to have that conversation and be in the moment. But if I can be vulnerable with you, and you know I'm uncomfortable, or I'm hurting, or
(12:46):
I'm actually nervous about having this conversation. And I say that out loud that humanizing quality can really help people stay in the right place where they're psychologically safe enough to have that conversation.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:00):
Soup.
Really, I really love this. Let's let's tease this out a little bit.
Somewhere out there right now. Someone's listening, and they're saying, Well, wait a minute.
I don't really want to be all that vulnerable with a bunch of people I don't want to really like show that I'm hurt, or weak, or sad, or mad, or glad.
Courtney Ramsey (13:23):
What would you say to that person?
I get it.
I would say, I completely understand where you're coming from, because when you think about how our society is. We've been conditioned to not show weakness. Think about social media. We only show the highlights of our life. We show everything going right. We show us at our absolute best, even when we're faking it. But when you think about it, we all have those vulnerable minutes and moments of our lives, and a lot of times we just wear a mask to cover it up. I would argue that even though it's super uncomfortable.
(13:57):
the more you can admit to that vulnerability, even if you just quickly mention it. It's going to help you in the long run. But it does take. It's a different. It's a shift, because that's not what we're taught. And that's not how we're programmed our entire life. But it really does help the other person understand that you're coming at this conversation or this conflict resolution from a good place. And you're not all macho ego. Let's you know I'm gonna figure this out. We're gonna put you in your place. It's not about that.
(14:26):
It's about coming at this from 2 people who earnestly want to make our relationship better.
And I'm going to be human enough to tell you I'm hurt right. It's it's hard, though.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:37):
Yeah, it is hard. And what I really think is really powerful about what you just did. And I hope people listening will notice this
when I, when I challenge you about, how would you handle this? The 1st thing you did was acknowledge it right. Say I get it.
and I think that acknowledging how somebody else might be showing up is a great way
(15:02):
to find some common ground, because it's easy to do. It's easy to acknowledge that somebody might be feeling hesitant.
Courtney Ramsey (15:09):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:10):
Challenge with something right?
So so I think that was really powerful that you did, and you just sort of dropped it right there. The the other thing that I let's let's explore this from a different perspective. You talked about.
Being business partners or friends. And that infers a closer relationship.
Is this the kind of thing that can also work with
(15:31):
people that you're less closely associated with. Maybe it's a vendor.
Courtney Ramsey (15:35):
Yes.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:36):
Flyer, or, you know, infrequent customer, how was work there.
Courtney Ramsey (15:42):
Yeah. So actually, I think it's even more important when you're having a difficult conversation with someone. Maybe you're not as close to because they don't know you, and they don't know your heart. They have very limited data points of who you are and what you're about. So when you think about that that leaves open data to their brain for them to just make assumptions and draw conclusions based on the very few data points they have. So if anything.
(16:08):
it's more important to have an intent statement, as I call it, to kick off a tough conversation with like a vendor who maybe you've had 2 interactions with, because then again, they are hearing you out loud. Say you care you want to resolve this. You're coming at this from a good place, so please don't think I'm coming at this with negative intent.
(16:30):
I think intent statements are important, no matter when you start a conversation, because sometimes, even with like your spouse, but maybe you've been married for 20 years. They still need to know you're coming at this from a good place, but it's especially important when someone doesn't know you all that well, and they don't have a lot of history with you.
Govindh Jayaraman (16:47):
That's really, that's a really important reminder. I think one of the things that you know we talk a lot about in paper napkin wisdom is connection before content that you. It's important to connect with people as individuals, as humans, as people before you dive into anything else. And if you do that
then, and you do it authentically. You can't do it. It's not.
Courtney Ramsey (17:09):
Like a checklist.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:10):
That you're going down and going. Yep, check connection. But if you've actually connected with somebody, it is
beautiful lubricant for the conversation that follows right, isn't it? And very true. And I think that
that's a very insightful
point that you made that with people you don't know. They have very limited data points about you. It's almost all filled in the gap by assumption.
(17:35):
Exactly right? So it's so important to dispel that and I think that's really insightful.
What what do you?
What are the other benefits that you've seen of this intent statement in a conversation?
Maybe monument in that conversation, but universally like energetically that follows, what does it open up for you? Otherwise.
Courtney Ramsey (17:58):
Hmm!
That's a great question, energetically. You know I don't do a great job of setting my intention for the day, like you hear people waking up, and they set their intention for the day. And this is what I'm trying to do. I don't do the best of that. I'm trying to get better at that. But I love having almost like a plan, because I really do think what you focus on
(18:20):
is is what you focus on right, and that can absolutely come into fruition, because that is where you're placing your energy. So I think the more we can set our intentions the more we go focus our energy on that
outcome. And it we have a better chance of reaching the things we really want.
It's definitely something I'm working on, though.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:40):
But so you're almost using the plant. The tree analogy, right? Like, you know, the best time to set your attention may be in a journal
80 years ago.
The morning, however.
Courtney Ramsey (18:49):
Right.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:50):
The next best time is right now.
Courtney Ramsey (18:52):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:53):
So so just because you didn't do it earlier doesn't mean you can't do it. 12 times during the day.
Courtney Ramsey (18:59):
Correct. Right? I actually did that with you. Yeah, before we jumped on this call. I was like, you know, I just I don't not sure what came out of this conversation, because what I love about you is you are very organic, and how you do your podcast but I just hope that the right things come out for whoever might be listening to this, podcast with you and I for what they need to hear. You know. So you're right. I like that. The tree analogy is great.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:22):
Did you think of a worst case scenario? By the way.
Courtney Ramsey (19:24):
Not with this one, not with this one. No, I did not.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:27):
All right. I appreciate your faith. So so that's really great. I really, I really think there's a lot of power in that. And and and I hadn't
connected the dots on this intent statement being an opportunity to reframe several points during the day. It almost is a.
Courtney Ramsey (19:45):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:46):
It's almost like a.
you know, in monopoly. When you get into jail it's a get out of jail card that you have all the time, and the jail is your own thinking, the prison of your own mind in some ways.
Courtney Ramsey (19:56):
It's a really good. It's a good analogy. Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (19:59):
So that's that's I'm really struck by this. So so I love. I love this idea around, you know.
Going back, you said you said that sometimes we're
often hitting snooze around difficult conversations with other people.
(20:19):
Do you feel that? Do you feel that we hit snooze on difficult conversations with ourselves as well.
Courtney Ramsey (20:26):
Oh.
yes, we absolutely do, and when you think about it, those are the most important conversations of all. The conversations you have with yourself are the most important conversations, because there's so much of of what we're doing every day. That is a result of those conversations you're having with yourself.
(20:47):
and I know me personally. I've I've hit snooze on lots of things when it comes to. You really need to do a better job of XY and Z. Or I would really love to be the person who does this thing. It's very easy to put yourself last.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:01):
So how
you how do you? What's the what's the preamble to that conversation with yourself? You gave us the what's the worst that can happen either way, and the statement of intent when it comes to starting conversations with other people. But how do you start that conversation with yourself?
Courtney Ramsey (21:18):
Hmm!
I think. 1st and foremost, you have to make the space to have the conversation with yourself.
I don't know about you, but I feel like I have a thousand plates spinning in my head at all times, not to mention I have some Adhd tendencies, so that I feel like there's almost like a pinball machine going on in my head. It's like it's just always things are bouncing around. So 1st and foremost, making space to have that conversation and trying to get quiet
(21:47):
for you to actually think things through.
That's the the 1st and foremost thing. And then I start thinking about my long term outcomes. And and I really I don't change the process too much. I really think about. If I don't do this.
what's going to happen if I do do this, what's going to happen? And a lot of times what
(22:09):
serves me the most is thinking about potentially the regret I would have for not moving forward with something.
For example, I left my corporate position with Jcpenney here in the States back in 2017, and
I had to make a really hard decision to leave a job that I really loved for the chance to start my own business, and that was scary. Anytime you you quit a well paying job with benefits and a paycheck right? And I essentially went back to paying myself my starting salary out of college. It was scary, scary, scary. But I thought to myself, If I don't do this.
(22:48):
am I going to regret this when I'm 65, 75, 85? And the answer was a resounding yes, so I thought to myself, the worst that could happen is, I'm not going to be able to make ends meet. But you know what that is, what driving uber
and waiting tables is for. If I have to go back to the cheesecake factory and wait some tables, I can do that because that was darn good money.
(23:10):
And I really thought about that, too, like, what's
are you going to regret this if you don't try it? And if the answer is yes, you need to push forward.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:21):
You know, it's really funny that you say that I recently had a really powerful conversation with a gentleman by the name of John Sleeman. John Sleeman built one of the largest brewing companies
in Canada from Scratch, and you know he started in the eighties and built it up to this amazing brand. And and you know, becoming a big beer company is difficult business because you're competing against 1 billion dollar companies. But he had that same core philosophy. What's the worst that could happen? And am I okay with that? And he was like, so he literally said, What's the big deal? I go work at Mcdonald's for a while. It's going to be okay.
(23:59):
and.
Courtney Ramsey (23:59):
Video.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:00):
Sitting here. I'm sitting here like anywhere
you go in that part of the world that he's from. You see, these big Sleeman trucks driving all over the place.
But
to hear that from him and then hear that sort of echoed from you is really really a powerful reminder that anchoring yourself that I'm gonna be okay.
Courtney Ramsey (24:22):
You are.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:22):
Is so liberating, isn't it?
Courtney Ramsey (24:25):
It is, it is, and sometimes it's hard to convince yourself of that. But when you think about it, you've always been okay. You've always gotten through hard things in your life you've gotten through. If you were to really start to list out all the things you've gotten through in your life, you would probably be amazed.
So I think we just have to remind ourselves we've gotten through tough times before we'll get through them again. And I know, you know, resilience is something you're looking at as a kind of an overall general theme for this year. But that's how we build up more resilience as we get through the hard stuff. You don't read about it in a book. You live it.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:56):
Right, and and and when you get a chance to take these moments, either in conversation with other people
or in conversation with yourself, part of it is, you're reminding yourself of
the path that you've traveled, the learnings you've had, and nothing builds momentum like that kind of recognition, right? So that gets you off this new.
Courtney Ramsey (25:22):
Absolutely.
Govindh Jayaraman (25:23):
Doesn't it.
Courtney Ramsey (25:24):
It does, it can. If you let yourself. You've got to be gentle enough going back to your gentleness. Philosophy, right? You've got to be gentle enough and compassionate with yourself. To almost speak to yourself like your best friend would be speaking to you. I know we've all heard this before, too right, but sometimes we can be so harsh with ourself. What would you say to your best friend when they're struggling with moving forward? You would probably remind them of all the success they've had in the past.
(25:49):
and just like you said, Can you work at Mcdonald's if you had to? Absolutely right? So if we can. If we could just all come up that philosophy, too, of just speaking to yourself as you would someone you truly cared about.
we would find those conversations with ourselves do go better and easier.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:06):
That's that's amazing.
So, Courtney, this brings us to the stage in our conversation, where I not only appreciate you, but I want to do a shout out to a former guest of ours. His name was John Rulin, wrote a great book called Giftology, but before he became
well known for his legacy. He shared a very inspiring napkin with us, which was what you appreciate appreciates, and I think you've given us a lens on that. And as a hat tip to him. He passed away rather suddenly.
(26:41):
and we've been sort of evoking his legacy with every paper, napkin conversation that we have by asking our guests to shout out someone at the end of the conversation, so laying some appreciation on the world and paying it forward, paying John's legacy forward. Is there someone you'd like to shout out.
Courtney Ramsey (27:00):
Yes, I would love to shout out my husband, Brad, because back in the day when I was considering leaving that corporate job, he was the one who put the stamp of approval on it and almost gave the okay now, and I don't want to say that sounds a little funny, like, no one should have to okay your decisions. But when you're in a partnership, especially a marriage, it matters right what the other person is doing and thinking, and whether or not they're on board with it, and I could not have done all that I've done since 2017
(27:29):
without his support, without his genuine belief in me, so I want to shout him out and thank him for all of that, because I feel like he's a big part of of why I'm able to do what I do.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:41):
That's powerful. Thank you, Courtney.
Courtney Ramsey (27:44):
Thank you.
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