August 7, 2025 • 34 mins
Napkin: “We are designed for rest.”
If you’ve ever worn exhaustion like a badge of honor, Episode 279 is a friendly intervention. Steven Langer—international keynote speaker and workplace wellness strategist—joins me to challenge a deeply ingrained belief: that rest is something we “earn” only after the work is done. Steven’s life’s work is helping organizations design healthier cultures from the inside out, and his company Well By Design boldly leads with a simple truth right on the homepage: we are designed for rest—and when we honor that design, we become more present and more productive at work and at home.
Steven brings a deep, practical background to the conversation—over 17 years as a senior leader across the public and private sectors, plus a Master’s in Education (Leadership) and training in change management, organizational behavior, HR, and strategic planning. He’s led teams, built capacity, and now equips leaders and staff to prioritize well-being without sacrificing results. He also speaks and writes extensively about moving beyond the buzzword of “work-life balance” toward something more realistic and sustainable—what he calls coherence.
Early in our chat, Steven underlines why the napkin says rest and not sleep:
“To me, rest is different than sleep… it’s the things you’re intentionally doing that get you back to baseline.” — .css-j9qmi7{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-direction:row;-ms-flex-direction:row;flex-direction:row;font-weight:700;margin-bottom:1rem;margin-top:2.8rem;width:100%;-webkit-box-pack:start;-ms-flex-pack:start;-webkit-justify-content:start;justify-content:start;padding-left:5rem;}@media only screen and (max-width: 599px){.css-j9qmi7{padding-left:0;-webkit-box-pack:center;-ms-flex-pack:center;-webkit-justify-content:center;justify-content:center;}}.css-j9qmi7 svg{fill:#27292D;}.css-j9qmi7 .eagfbvw0{-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;color:#27292D;}Mark as PlayedTranscript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:02):
Stephen, welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm excited to have our conversation today.
Steven Langer (00:07):
Thanks, Colvin. It's great to be here.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
Well, Steven, you know I said this offline before we began, but you have a unique distinction in paper, napkin wisdom lore. You are the only person in the history of paper, napkin wisdom to hand. Draw the paper, napkin, wisdom, logo, in the corner of their napkin, and for that I'm really grateful. I think that's amazing. So that's like throwing down the gauntlet to all future guests to see if they can do that too.
Steven Langer (00:33):
And I have 0 artistic ability, so don't hold that against me. But no, I think it's great.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:39):
It's the best hand drawing by a guest ever. So you have that distinction.
Steven Langer (00:43):
That bar is low for next.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:45):
All right. So you also shared a really interesting comment or napkin. And there's a couple of things going on. We are designed for rest and designed is in blue. So there's an emphasis on designed, and you've underlined the word rest twice. Why did you share that with me?
Steven Langer (01:08):
Yeah, you know what. That's something that's been really resonating with me lately and trying to really be intentional with that. I've been living with the words intentional over default for a long time. And that's where this we're designed for rest. It's meant to be emphasized because I think a lot of times, people.
It's it's the last thing to come the 1st thing to go. You know, we've got this badge of honor for pushing through and just continuing to work and and continuing to push harder and harder and harder at the expense of ourselves, thinking that we can be more productive, thinking that, you know we've just got to keep going in this hustle. Culture is absolutely destroying our sense of self. Our ability to get back to baseline. We are designed
(01:56):
as human beings to rest, and when we rest we actually renew, we re-energize, and we come back ready to take on more. And yet people just push through, push through, push through, thinking I got to do this, but we're doing it at a reduced capacity.
There is research to show that when you're working at fatigue level, you're 70% less productive. So when you're thinking I gotta go, I gotta go. I gotta go and I gotta push through and finish work, or whatever.
(02:24):
Sometimes we all have to. But when we're doing that we're doing it at less capacity. So we'd be so much better to just pull back and actually rest. So that's why I put designed in blue, just because it's like we've got to emphasize like it's not something that will be nice to have. We are designed for it. We need it.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:41):
You said something really interesting off the cuff as well, and it's it's it's the last thing to come, and the 1st thing to go rest.
Why? Why, I mean, yeah. Hustle culture is part of that. But
why is it the last thing? Why, we do look at rest like a reward. I'll rest when I'm done. People even say I'll rest when I'm dead.
(03:05):
Right. Those are sayings those are badges of honor that entrepreneurs and leaders wear. Isn't it?
Steven Langer (03:10):
It is, it is absolutely. And that's the thing is, I think people are so quick to help someone else, and they're so quick to step in to pick up the pieces for other people when they need it, and be there for other people. But the idea of taking care of themselves and taking what they need comes last. It's hard, I think, oftentimes we feel guilty for taking rest, and I want to specify the reason I underline rest twice is because to me rest is different than sleep.
(03:38):
We can do a lot of conversation and all the research on sleep and the value of sleep. But to me rest is different. Rest are those intentional things that we're doing while we're awake, that bring us renewal and bring us joy. It's not your doomsday scroll on Netflix, you know, with Instagram it's not sleep. It's the things that you're intentionally doing
(03:59):
that get you back to Baseline, the things that bring you joy, the things that you enjoy spending your time doing, and we all know that when we get busy 1st thing that gets cut is my tennis match my off leash walk with my dog. You know my time sitting on the front porch having a cup of coffee. That's the 1st thing to go right because we feel like we need to push through.
But at the end of the day those are the things that get us back to renewed state.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:23):
I really, 1st of all, you're
very intentional about using the word intentional right? This is this is purposeful time. This is blocked off time, and I imagine that if I were to look at your calendar
wherever it exists, there are blocks of time that you've created for this
awakened renewal, this awakened rest, this awake period where you actually do something to refill your buckets. Would I be wrong in saying that.
Steven Langer (04:53):
Partially I have one. I have one space that is fully blocked off as my time, and that's 1st thing in the morning. It's new. I only started doing this a few months ago. I wake up at the same time every morning, and before I even before I check my phone, before I check my work. All the things that are going to stress me out and frustrate me, and all the things. I grab a cup of coffee, and I take a walk around my block outside in. You know, I got beautiful trees around where I live and stuff so often. I do it in my slippers just
(05:21):
out we go. Let's have some fun, you know, like start the day with an intentional moment of gratitude. Enjoy the sunshine, just slow life down before we get started, and neighbors love it when they see me with a cup of coffee and my slippers walking around the block. But that's my one time. That's like it starts me off right. But the rest of it I don't necessarily want to be prescriptive with it. That this is my rest time, you know, like your body will tell you when you need it. And there's times when it's like, no, I need. You know. I just need to be intentional and
(05:50):
focus in that way that you know it's okay to have times during your day where you rest. Can I give you a stat? There's
Govindh Jayaraman (05:57):
Move.
Steven Langer (05:58):
There's a stat to show that 53% of people don't find time or take time within their week to rest.
They either because they feel guilty because they're overcommitted. You know. How often are you like, hey? I'd love to get out and go golfing, or I'd love to go for a bike ride, which is what your former rest might be. But you feel guilty leaving, you know, your partner with the kids, or you feel guilty leaving chores undone at home. And so you end up just pushing through doing it and skipping those things.
(06:23):
But those are the things that actually allow us to be our best selves for the people we care about. And so, you know, rather than saying, You know, feel guilty and not doing it. We need to lean into that right. And there's there's research to show that when you, when you don't take that rest, it leads to chronic fatigue. And, as I said, when you're chronically fatigued, that's when you're less productive and less able. And it leads down the roads towards burnout and anxiety and stress, and all those things right.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:49):
Yeah, I want to come back to chronic fatigue in a second cool
and and you talked about earlier. You know that we're 70% less productive
when working at a fatigue level. So I think that's an important subject. And I want to come back to that. But you also said something just now that I think it's
really interesting. And I wonder about this. You said my body will tell me when I need to rest.
Steven Langer (07:11):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:11):
But being sensitive to that, and acting on it right like noticing it and acting on it
is not something we do naturally, because you said. It's the last thing
to come, and the 1st thing to go. So those 2 things sort of work against each other a little bit. If we just do it by default. So you're intentional about this. Tell me about how you learned to listen to your body.
Steven Langer (07:36):
The hard way. I think we've all had our experiences of burnout and stress and exhaustion and all those things, and I think we're living life beyond our capacity. Life is really complex, whether it be because we're, you know, pushing more on our plate through work, through home, caring for loved ones trying to push all those things in. Life's complex, and it's busy. And we do have a bandwidth
(08:00):
right? And so you know, our body has hormones, and going back to like simple junior high science between the serotonin and the dopamine that release. When when we do things for ourselves, get out in nature and give us that experience that brings us back to baseline or the reward center when we're trying to check things off a to do list. You know, we can go on and on about all the you know, the oxytocin as well, and the endorphins. But really, what it comes down to is when you're feeling elevated in stress. You got to get yourself back to Baseline
(08:30):
right? And so have you ever been in that space where you're like, I got a million one things to do. My to do list the length of my arm, and all I really need to do is check something off my list. You can feel it right. But then you start checking things off the list. You get a little bit of momentum. You're like, okay, this is awesome. I'm feeling it again, feeling great, right? And so it's
(08:50):
creating space and room for that complexity in our lives. I think we need to be intentional about slowing ourselves down and asking, Why am I as busy as I am? Why am I pushing those things? Chaos is happening in our life. Complexity is coming, whether we like it or not. But if we don't have room for it, that's the stuff that pushes you over the edge right.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:09):
So so again I want to. I want to. I want to push back a little bit and go back to how you said that you
learned it the hard way.
Those were the terms that you used, so
I will assume that it didn't come naturally, and you hit a wall at some point right.
Steven Langer (09:28):
Sure did.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:29):
So what did what did that look like for you? And how did you apply the lessons from that.
Steven Langer (09:33):
I mean, yeah, I was. I was the high achiever. I was, you know, my 1st career was in the education sector. I was a principal. By the age of 29 I was in
executive work by the age of 34 high level achiever constantly pushing through, and I had a mentality of. I got this right. I always got this, and so I keep pushing through no problem. I've always had this before. Why would this time be any different. We had a pretty significant experience in our family that shifted our mindset, and if you don't mind me sharing, it's a doozy.
(10:07):
So it was in the height of Covid which everybody had their time, had young kids 5 and a 3 year old, and we decided my wife and I wanted to take them skating. And so, you know, we go to the outdoor rink having a great time. And in this space we're actually doing pretty well as a family. We're thriving. We're doing okay. Right?
Instantly we realize that health is fragile.
(10:27):
My wife fell and she broke both of her wrists.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:30):
Oh, my God!
Steven Langer (10:30):
Right? Right? So like. Imagine what you do at any point in time during the day or night, and now you can't do them, and you need help to do them. And so immediately trying to step in to be a hero, father, hero, husband, while trying to maintain myself as a hero employee. I got this.
and so, trying to take care of the family, trying to navigate all that sphere in the height of Covid, with not a lot of support in the home. I neglected to take care of myself as well, and so I neglected the pain that was in my stomach, thinking, yeah, it's an ulcer, or whatever I can push through. Take some tums and go to bed.
(11:05):
It wasn't. It was appendicitis, and it had gone so bad beyond septic that by the time I got to the hospital the doctor had said, like I had 90 min, and it could have been incredibly serious or or terminal. Yeah, right? So hard to say that word, actually. But it's like I almost pushed myself to the point of no return, because I was trying to say I got this. But how often do people do that? Just push and push and push, thinking you'll be okay until you're not
(11:31):
right. So it was in that time that for us, I realized, like holy, we need to recalibrate and rethink about how we're doing things, because hopefully, nobody goes through that experience. But complexity comes for all of us at different points in time, and we need room for it.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:47):
Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. And I think it's really.
you know, an interesting metaphor that you've
you got that feeling in your gut right? I mean, there was a feeling in your gut that something was wrong that you ignored. Yeah. And isn't it true for all of us?
For many of us that that
(12:07):
we do, that we ignore that feeling in our gut.
Yours was physical, it was literal.
But for a lot of us it's metaphorical that we ignore that feeling in our gut and push through.
Challenge it. So what are you suggesting that we need to do, you say? Make room for complexity, and that's an interesting phrase. But how do we do that?
(12:32):
What did you.
Steven Langer (12:33):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:33):
Do. From this experience.
Steven Langer (12:36):
I think we fill our lives. And I think we you know, how often do you get up and you splash back a coffee head off to work. Take the kids to daycare, you know, meeting meeting. And then you get home. They got to take the kids to activities, and before you know it. You hit the pillow, and you're like, what just happened? I'm exhausted, and I think that there's a different way of doing it, you know. Let's be intentional in how we design our world so that it's not so tightly packed
(12:58):
that we don't have room for those spaces, you know, and and taking the time intentionally. That's why I say we're designed for rest, taking the time intentionally to build in time for yourself rather than just hoping you find it along the way.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:13):
Yeah, and you can risk it by starting your day that way. In your case.
Steven Langer (13:17):
Yeah, right? There's 1 the book Comfort Crisis, by Michael Easter. He talks about it a lot, and then I've built off of that myself. This idea of the nature pyramid, you know, we all know we're supposed to get outside and be active and be, you know, engaged in nature, and that it it helps with our vitamin D and our serotonin, and all this. But he talks about this idea of the 25, 3 rule, and so 20 min outside every day
(13:42):
is the 1st basis for some significant health improvements. Talking lower cortisol, you know. Better sleep better vitamin d absorption regulated heart rate, and it's like, go for a walk around the block. Take your dog out, you know. Go for a bike ride, do some gardening, or sit on your porch and have a coffee 20 min outside. We can all do that right, and then talks about the idea of 5 h once a month.
(14:07):
Right? So take a Saturday and go for a bike. Ride in the river valley, or, you know, go paddle boarding or go camping. You know that kind of a simple thing like try to take some time and be intentional in being outdoors, maybe like skiing, maybe, like, you know, swimming whatever.
And then 3 is the 3 days off grid once a year, right? And so that was a little harder, but it talks about greater cognitive restoration, which is essentially giving your brain a break right? And all of these health benefits that come from it. And I loved hearing this because it puts parameters around it instead of get outside. It's like, Take 20 min and you'll improve.
(14:45):
Great! That's easy.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:47):
Yeah. And and it is easy. I mean, I know in my case.
my 20 min outside and lots of neuroscientists are talking about the value of this.
Huberman talks about it. Everybody talks about the value of this 20 min outside, and it's a short walk in the morning and the afternoon with the dogs, gets me outside guaranteed every single day, so I felt that value. I like this 5 h once a month, and this is again 5 h once a month outside, and 3 days
(15:18):
off grid. So what does off grid mean in this.
Steven Langer (15:22):
I know.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:22):
In this sense, what does that really mean.
Steven Langer (15:25):
Go camping right like, Do something like that. Go out to the go to a national park, stay in a hotel, but just
actually don't bring your phone. Don't bring your laptop and go for a hike. Right? You know something like that, if you can. Anything where you're intentionally engaging with the outdoors right? And so it doesn't have to be dramatic. It can be just, you know, whether you like, whether it's camping or fishing hiking, or, you know biking trips with friends for a few days, whatever it be, to get you outside.
(15:55):
away from the busyness and pull
that's within your space. And I should say like that 20 min outside. How often do you go for a walk outside? But you're scrolling your phone the whole time. That completely negates the whole process right instead. What I would suggest is to do a 5 senses walk sounds kind of hokey, but it works right. So start your day, start your walk by saying, Okay, what can I see?
(16:18):
And take 2 min and just focus on what you see around you?
Right? Take a look at the trees. Take a look at the leaves. Who's playing outside? Maybe there's an airplane flying overhead. What do you see? Then you move on to what do you hear right listening to the kids playing? Listen to the crunch of the snow under your feet. If that's the thing or the rain that's falling right then what do you smell? Right? Take the time. Walk your way through the senses, and at the end, for what do you taste? Swing by your favorite coffee shop, and actually just enjoy a coffee rather than pound one back on your way to work like, taste it, enjoy it, savor it.
(16:51):
What it does is, it gets you in this mindful space where you're outside of the chaos of your day. You're outside of all the other business, and you're just giving yourself a minute
to focus.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:02):
Activating 5 senses is really powerful as a tool. And and and I think if somebody is listening right now, and if it's not something that they can
feel like. Oh, I can't! I can't go for a walk right now.
You could probably bring that into any moment, couldn't you? You know, you could just take that moment right here
and think about as you're listening to the podcast what do you see?
(17:26):
What do you hear? Hopefully our voices. And what do you smell?
What do you feel, and what do you taste? I think those are really powerful. That's a really powerful tool.
I want to come back to something that you talked about. And this is a really dramatic number
70. We are 70% less productive when working at a fatigue level.
and and then you combined it with the fact that most of us are working from some level of fatigue as it is, and this chronic level of fatigue. So somewhere, listening right now, people are saying, Great!
(18:00):
I get it. I'm gassed.
Steven Langer (18:02):
Like, I, you win. Yeah, thanks.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:06):
Thank you very much. I know I'm gassed.
but what do I do about it? I'm trying, and I can't get anywhere. So you're talking about designer to a fault. You're talking about intentional things that can move you forward. But what's something? You know you've given us this great 5 senses walk. But how? How long do we have to work at this to get rid of chronic fatigue?
Steven Langer (18:30):
Well, that's the thing is like, if we're doing enough to keep us at a baseline
right then, if we're already at a chronic fatigue state. We actually need to do more to get us back down right. And so there is an element of like. It'd be better if we could do it before we get to that point, because then you're maintaining before you're having to reinvest, that the reality is, if you don't, then I'm sorry. But if we're going to continue pushing ourselves towards Burnout, it's going to come. I found out the hard way, and my goal is that it doesn't have to happen for you.
(19:01):
Now, that said, life's busy. Life's tough for everybody. So the idea of like, well, just, you know, take time for you and do all these things. That sounds great, but some people are really pushing just to to make it to the end of the day. So it goes back to intention for me. We all have moments where we can
redesign the space, so you make it to the end of the day. You know you got the dishes finally done. The kids are in bed, or just whatever your day is finally done, and it's so easy just to get horizontal. Watch Netflix and scroll whatever social media platform
(19:31):
instead.
go sit on your porch with a cup of tea or something like that, and just have silence. Just create space for quiet. But it's more intentional design to that space right when you're with your kids at a soccer game. If that's something that you do like, I that I do try and give yourself. Don't don't get on your phone while your kids are watching your game.
(19:53):
Maybe you do like 10 min of a of an outdoor workout while they're doing their practice. And then you 0 back in and just watch. Just watch your kid right? It's trying to think about in that moment when I'm driving home. Hey? Turn on the paper napkin, wisdom. Podcast but after that's done right, turn it off and just have a moment to yourself, instead of filling it with noise.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:15):
Right.
And and I think that once we because you say we're designed for rest.
right? So once we start to play with that idea, won't we gravitate to the things that work best for us?
Steven Langer (20:30):
Okay. So back to the sleep thing that I talked about where I wake up and I go for my walk in my slippers. I'm a habitual snoozer, like 3 years I would wake up and and crank that snooze button 5, 10 times.
and it hit me. That's like if my body doesn't know when I'm waking up. Then I'm waking up exhausted, and it's like, Wake up just kidding. Go back to bed, wake up, just kidding, go back to bed. And so I thought, Okay, for a moment. I'm going to try something different and just test it. So I set the alarm for the same time every day.
(20:58):
I now wake up 5 min before my alarm every day. I don't even need it anymore, which is weird, but it's great, you know, and then up I go. My coffee's pre-made. That's an intentional step where you know this morning's me is thankful that last night's me pre-made the coffee.
and then off I go. And now I it started out, as you know. Just get outside and take 2 min, and now I thrive off of that. And what's awesome is even this morning. My daughter. She's 10, and she said, Dad, can I come with you? Absolutely right? And now she's like Dad. This is amazing, like, check out the flowers. And like you saw our neighbor. And so she's now engaging in that, too. So it builds. You're right. Once you start, it builds momentum.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:39):
Right.
And we.
I think we're also designed to make it better, right when we you've improved how you rest that design model that you've created for yourself has improved because you've built momentum around it. You've got some. You've got a taste for it, and you are adding things to it that work for you? Right?
(22:04):
Yeah. And I think.
Steven Langer (22:05):
One of the things one of the things to stress is like what is rest.
And so for me, like 2 things that I love to do for rest. One of them is, take my dog to the off leash.
right? And so I that's not sleep. We're not talking about sleep. We're talking about things that get you back to Baseline and bring renewal. So when I take my dog to be off leash, I'm outside. I'm in nature. I'm kind of having a moment just to myself. It's where most of my great ideas for my speaking engagements come from. But I'm watching her run around in the trees and play with the other dogs, and it's just kind of like a happy moment for me. Right? So that's rest.
(22:39):
you know. For me, another one is tennis. I love playing tennis, you know. You gotta get against another partner and playing against someone. There's strategy to it. If you're frustrated, just crush a serve. Who cares if it goes in or not? All those things? Those are rest because they bring me more energy when I'm finished than when I started.
So.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:59):
I really, I really love that. I remember
a billion years ago there was a paper napkin that was given to me by Michael Walsh
and Michael Walsh talks about that. We all have 4 energy buckets, and we can fill them up one at a time, or we can fill them all up, but for you know, we can do them all at the same time. And there's a
(23:19):
physical bucket. There's a mental bucket, there's an emotional bucket, and there's a spiritual bucket and the high value our activities that we engage in fill all 4 simultaneously. And he gave this great example of yeah, I could run in the treadmill in my basement, and that'll refill my physical bucket. But I take that run outside and I'm filling all 4 of my buckets.
(23:40):
and you just identified.
you know you could take your dog out to the off leash, and that fills all 4 of your buckets because.
Steven Langer (23:49):
That's a great way to put it. I like that.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:51):
As opposed to just filling one of them. So we can each find those high value activities that fill all of our buckets simultaneously. And we can design for that. We can. We can build for that. And that's what you call rest. You say that that is truly where we rest, because we're refilling our buckets right.
Steven Langer (24:11):
Yeah, yeah, I think also, sometimes people put pressure around those things where it's like, I gotta get my rest in. I got. And then it becomes a thing in itself.
Life is hard, life's complex, and and there are days where it's like I'd love to get to the off leash, and there is no time.
That is okay.
But the reality is that when you cancel those things right, then, your baseline for your your stress response, your anxiety, the fight flight freeze all that. It goes higher. And you just have to recognize that if it's like, okay for one day, I gotta not do something for myself and bring myself higher. Okay, you just have to not allow that to compound upon itself. You gotta get your. You got to get your time in to bring yourself back to Baseline.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:51):
I mean, I think that's a huge part of this gift. And I think it's amazing that you've made this such an intentional part. You know you're taking your own lessons have made this a part of what you're sharing with the world.
Listen.
somewhere out there right now. There's somebody who's just struggling with this idea doesn't know where to get started. And and you've given them the 5 senses
(25:13):
and the 5 senses walk. We've talked about energy buckets, and you've even talked about your own morning routine. What's something that you know?
And you? You talked about it as a possibility right now.
what's something that people could do
right now right here, that they could start this journey
and build rest into their day.
Steven Langer (25:35):
You know what I think. It's unique to everyone in that we all have different ways that we do find ourselves grounded and reconnected. I would say, take the thing that brings you the most joy, or take the thing that you enjoy like you, that brings you happiness along the way throughout your day and start it in small doses. So for example, for like for some people that's gardening like, okay, great. Just take 5 min.
(26:00):
5 min and go garden, and then come back in no pressure 5 min, and just see what that does for you, right for my wife, for her. She needs that time to herself to really kind of reground herself. She'll take a cup of tea and a book upstairs into the bedroom, shut the door, and it's like her time, whether it's a magazine or a book. She's having a cup of tea. She needs time to herself, and she knows that that's how she feels it, and she engages in that way. Let me tell you, if you open up the door, someone better be dying, because that is her time
(26:31):
so, but but like it doesn't have to be anything heroic or anything crazy, just whatever it is for you that, you know.
gets you back to Baseline.
Stop putting it aside, there's a really cool quote I'd love to. I'd love to put you put forward. It's don't wait till you're thirsty to dig your well.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:49):
Right.
Steven Langer (26:50):
And I mean it's a classic proverb, but it's like, don't wait until you're burnt out, stressed and exhausted to start taking care of yourself
right? You gotta do it before invest in yourself, because that way you are your best self for the people, for the jobs, for the work, for yourself along the way.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:10):
And if you are burned out, if you're listening to this right now, and you are burned out. And you're thinking, Oh, yeah, sure. But I am thirsty, and I am tired, and I am this, then? Yeah, the best time to do this may have been before, but the next best time is right now.
Steven Langer (27:23):
Bingo!
Govindh Jayaraman (27:23):
That's a really really powerful takeaway.
Stephen. Thank you for joining me. There is one thing that I want to ask you for.
Yes, sir, the end of
every episode this season we've been sort of doing a shout out to a former paper, napkin Wisdom guest. His name was John Ruland. He was on the show
11 years ago, and he shared with us a great sentiment which is what you appreciate, appreciates, and that sounds really aligned with the message that you've just shared here.
(27:50):
But his message was, when you appreciate people, when you give love to people, they rise.
And so we've been asking
our guests to end each episode with a moment of gratitude for someone who they can appreciate along the way. Who would you like to shout out.
Steven Langer (28:07):
Yeah, happily shut up, Mike Schoenberger. He's the CEO of Sunco communication and installation in based in Edmonton. He and I have connected recently and had some really great heart dialogues where it's like, let's just open up our minds to the possibility of authentic connections. And the idea that you're you're put in a place for a reason, and that you can then lift each other up.
(28:31):
And so part of it. I get a lot of joy, and I know Mike does as well from being able to really just put someone in a place to thrive. And if I can help you if I can lift you up. Great. So he and I have been back and forth doing that, connecting in that way, and it's been really awesome to see how we've been able to support each other in that. He's doing some great things with his organization in terms of helping the wellness in in their space. And so, yeah, I'd like to do a shout out to Mike.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:58):
Yeah, can I not often do I get the opportunity to join in someone's shout out, because I would know the person in this case. I know Mike very well as well. He's a dear friend, and if you don't know him, reach out to him because he's
wonderful, wonderful soul. And one thing you can say about Mike is, he'll make time for you because he is designed for rest, and he understands what it means to lift some lift where he stands, and that's a great shout out, thank you, Stephen.
Steven Langer (29:29):
Right back at you. Thanks for the time.
Stephen, welcome to paper napkin wisdom. I'm excited to have our conversation today.
Steven Langer (00:07):
Thanks, Colvin. It's great to be here.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:09):
Well, Steven, you know I said this offline before we began, but you have a unique distinction in paper, napkin wisdom lore. You are the only person in the history of paper, napkin wisdom to hand. Draw the paper, napkin, wisdom, logo, in the corner of their napkin, and for that I'm really grateful. I think that's amazing. So that's like throwing down the gauntlet to all future guests to see if they can do that too.
Steven Langer (00:33):
And I have 0 artistic ability, so don't hold that against me. But no, I think it's great.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:39):
It's the best hand drawing by a guest ever. So you have that distinction.
Steven Langer (00:43):
That bar is low for next.
Govindh Jayaraman (00:45):
All right. So you also shared a really interesting comment or napkin. And there's a couple of things going on. We are designed for rest and designed is in blue. So there's an emphasis on designed, and you've underlined the word rest twice. Why did you share that with me?
Steven Langer (01:08):
Yeah, you know what. That's something that's been really resonating with me lately and trying to really be intentional with that. I've been living with the words intentional over default for a long time. And that's where this we're designed for rest. It's meant to be emphasized because I think a lot of times, people.
It's it's the last thing to come the 1st thing to go. You know, we've got this badge of honor for pushing through and just continuing to work and and continuing to push harder and harder and harder at the expense of ourselves, thinking that we can be more productive, thinking that, you know we've just got to keep going in this hustle. Culture is absolutely destroying our sense of self. Our ability to get back to baseline. We are designed
(01:56):
as human beings to rest, and when we rest we actually renew, we re-energize, and we come back ready to take on more. And yet people just push through, push through, push through, thinking I got to do this, but we're doing it at a reduced capacity.
There is research to show that when you're working at fatigue level, you're 70% less productive. So when you're thinking I gotta go, I gotta go. I gotta go and I gotta push through and finish work, or whatever.
(02:24):
Sometimes we all have to. But when we're doing that we're doing it at less capacity. So we'd be so much better to just pull back and actually rest. So that's why I put designed in blue, just because it's like we've got to emphasize like it's not something that will be nice to have. We are designed for it. We need it.
Govindh Jayaraman (02:41):
You said something really interesting off the cuff as well, and it's it's it's the last thing to come, and the 1st thing to go rest.
Why? Why, I mean, yeah. Hustle culture is part of that. But
why is it the last thing? Why, we do look at rest like a reward. I'll rest when I'm done. People even say I'll rest when I'm dead.
(03:05):
Right. Those are sayings those are badges of honor that entrepreneurs and leaders wear. Isn't it?
Steven Langer (03:10):
It is, it is absolutely. And that's the thing is, I think people are so quick to help someone else, and they're so quick to step in to pick up the pieces for other people when they need it, and be there for other people. But the idea of taking care of themselves and taking what they need comes last. It's hard, I think, oftentimes we feel guilty for taking rest, and I want to specify the reason I underline rest twice is because to me rest is different than sleep.
(03:38):
We can do a lot of conversation and all the research on sleep and the value of sleep. But to me rest is different. Rest are those intentional things that we're doing while we're awake, that bring us renewal and bring us joy. It's not your doomsday scroll on Netflix, you know, with Instagram it's not sleep. It's the things that you're intentionally doing
(03:59):
that get you back to Baseline, the things that bring you joy, the things that you enjoy spending your time doing, and we all know that when we get busy 1st thing that gets cut is my tennis match my off leash walk with my dog. You know my time sitting on the front porch having a cup of coffee. That's the 1st thing to go right because we feel like we need to push through.
But at the end of the day those are the things that get us back to renewed state.
Govindh Jayaraman (04:23):
I really, 1st of all, you're
very intentional about using the word intentional right? This is this is purposeful time. This is blocked off time, and I imagine that if I were to look at your calendar
wherever it exists, there are blocks of time that you've created for this
awakened renewal, this awakened rest, this awake period where you actually do something to refill your buckets. Would I be wrong in saying that.
Steven Langer (04:53):
Partially I have one. I have one space that is fully blocked off as my time, and that's 1st thing in the morning. It's new. I only started doing this a few months ago. I wake up at the same time every morning, and before I even before I check my phone, before I check my work. All the things that are going to stress me out and frustrate me, and all the things. I grab a cup of coffee, and I take a walk around my block outside in. You know, I got beautiful trees around where I live and stuff so often. I do it in my slippers just
(05:21):
out we go. Let's have some fun, you know, like start the day with an intentional moment of gratitude. Enjoy the sunshine, just slow life down before we get started, and neighbors love it when they see me with a cup of coffee and my slippers walking around the block. But that's my one time. That's like it starts me off right. But the rest of it I don't necessarily want to be prescriptive with it. That this is my rest time, you know, like your body will tell you when you need it. And there's times when it's like, no, I need. You know. I just need to be intentional and
(05:50):
focus in that way that you know it's okay to have times during your day where you rest. Can I give you a stat? There's
Govindh Jayaraman (05:57):
Move.
Steven Langer (05:58):
There's a stat to show that 53% of people don't find time or take time within their week to rest.
They either because they feel guilty because they're overcommitted. You know. How often are you like, hey? I'd love to get out and go golfing, or I'd love to go for a bike ride, which is what your former rest might be. But you feel guilty leaving, you know, your partner with the kids, or you feel guilty leaving chores undone at home. And so you end up just pushing through doing it and skipping those things.
(06:23):
But those are the things that actually allow us to be our best selves for the people we care about. And so, you know, rather than saying, You know, feel guilty and not doing it. We need to lean into that right. And there's there's research to show that when you, when you don't take that rest, it leads to chronic fatigue. And, as I said, when you're chronically fatigued, that's when you're less productive and less able. And it leads down the roads towards burnout and anxiety and stress, and all those things right.
Govindh Jayaraman (06:49):
Yeah, I want to come back to chronic fatigue in a second cool
and and you talked about earlier. You know that we're 70% less productive
when working at a fatigue level. So I think that's an important subject. And I want to come back to that. But you also said something just now that I think it's
really interesting. And I wonder about this. You said my body will tell me when I need to rest.
Steven Langer (07:11):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (07:11):
But being sensitive to that, and acting on it right like noticing it and acting on it
is not something we do naturally, because you said. It's the last thing
to come, and the 1st thing to go. So those 2 things sort of work against each other a little bit. If we just do it by default. So you're intentional about this. Tell me about how you learned to listen to your body.
Steven Langer (07:36):
The hard way. I think we've all had our experiences of burnout and stress and exhaustion and all those things, and I think we're living life beyond our capacity. Life is really complex, whether it be because we're, you know, pushing more on our plate through work, through home, caring for loved ones trying to push all those things in. Life's complex, and it's busy. And we do have a bandwidth
(08:00):
right? And so you know, our body has hormones, and going back to like simple junior high science between the serotonin and the dopamine that release. When when we do things for ourselves, get out in nature and give us that experience that brings us back to baseline or the reward center when we're trying to check things off a to do list. You know, we can go on and on about all the you know, the oxytocin as well, and the endorphins. But really, what it comes down to is when you're feeling elevated in stress. You got to get yourself back to Baseline
(08:30):
right? And so have you ever been in that space where you're like, I got a million one things to do. My to do list the length of my arm, and all I really need to do is check something off my list. You can feel it right. But then you start checking things off the list. You get a little bit of momentum. You're like, okay, this is awesome. I'm feeling it again, feeling great, right? And so it's
(08:50):
creating space and room for that complexity in our lives. I think we need to be intentional about slowing ourselves down and asking, Why am I as busy as I am? Why am I pushing those things? Chaos is happening in our life. Complexity is coming, whether we like it or not. But if we don't have room for it, that's the stuff that pushes you over the edge right.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:09):
So so again I want to. I want to. I want to push back a little bit and go back to how you said that you
learned it the hard way.
Those were the terms that you used, so
I will assume that it didn't come naturally, and you hit a wall at some point right.
Steven Langer (09:28):
Sure did.
Govindh Jayaraman (09:29):
So what did what did that look like for you? And how did you apply the lessons from that.
Steven Langer (09:33):
I mean, yeah, I was. I was the high achiever. I was, you know, my 1st career was in the education sector. I was a principal. By the age of 29 I was in
executive work by the age of 34 high level achiever constantly pushing through, and I had a mentality of. I got this right. I always got this, and so I keep pushing through no problem. I've always had this before. Why would this time be any different. We had a pretty significant experience in our family that shifted our mindset, and if you don't mind me sharing, it's a doozy.
(10:07):
So it was in the height of Covid which everybody had their time, had young kids 5 and a 3 year old, and we decided my wife and I wanted to take them skating. And so, you know, we go to the outdoor rink having a great time. And in this space we're actually doing pretty well as a family. We're thriving. We're doing okay. Right?
Instantly we realize that health is fragile.
(10:27):
My wife fell and she broke both of her wrists.
Govindh Jayaraman (10:30):
Oh, my God!
Steven Langer (10:30):
Right? Right? So like. Imagine what you do at any point in time during the day or night, and now you can't do them, and you need help to do them. And so immediately trying to step in to be a hero, father, hero, husband, while trying to maintain myself as a hero employee. I got this.
and so, trying to take care of the family, trying to navigate all that sphere in the height of Covid, with not a lot of support in the home. I neglected to take care of myself as well, and so I neglected the pain that was in my stomach, thinking, yeah, it's an ulcer, or whatever I can push through. Take some tums and go to bed.
(11:05):
It wasn't. It was appendicitis, and it had gone so bad beyond septic that by the time I got to the hospital the doctor had said, like I had 90 min, and it could have been incredibly serious or or terminal. Yeah, right? So hard to say that word, actually. But it's like I almost pushed myself to the point of no return, because I was trying to say I got this. But how often do people do that? Just push and push and push, thinking you'll be okay until you're not
(11:31):
right. So it was in that time that for us, I realized, like holy, we need to recalibrate and rethink about how we're doing things, because hopefully, nobody goes through that experience. But complexity comes for all of us at different points in time, and we need room for it.
Govindh Jayaraman (11:47):
Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. And I think it's really.
you know, an interesting metaphor that you've
you got that feeling in your gut right? I mean, there was a feeling in your gut that something was wrong that you ignored. Yeah. And isn't it true for all of us?
For many of us that that
(12:07):
we do, that we ignore that feeling in our gut.
Yours was physical, it was literal.
But for a lot of us it's metaphorical that we ignore that feeling in our gut and push through.
Challenge it. So what are you suggesting that we need to do, you say? Make room for complexity, and that's an interesting phrase. But how do we do that?
(12:32):
What did you.
Steven Langer (12:33):
Yeah.
Govindh Jayaraman (12:33):
Do. From this experience.
Steven Langer (12:36):
I think we fill our lives. And I think we you know, how often do you get up and you splash back a coffee head off to work. Take the kids to daycare, you know, meeting meeting. And then you get home. They got to take the kids to activities, and before you know it. You hit the pillow, and you're like, what just happened? I'm exhausted, and I think that there's a different way of doing it, you know. Let's be intentional in how we design our world so that it's not so tightly packed
(12:58):
that we don't have room for those spaces, you know, and and taking the time intentionally. That's why I say we're designed for rest, taking the time intentionally to build in time for yourself rather than just hoping you find it along the way.
Govindh Jayaraman (13:13):
Yeah, and you can risk it by starting your day that way. In your case.
Steven Langer (13:17):
Yeah, right? There's 1 the book Comfort Crisis, by Michael Easter. He talks about it a lot, and then I've built off of that myself. This idea of the nature pyramid, you know, we all know we're supposed to get outside and be active and be, you know, engaged in nature, and that it it helps with our vitamin D and our serotonin, and all this. But he talks about this idea of the 25, 3 rule, and so 20 min outside every day
(13:42):
is the 1st basis for some significant health improvements. Talking lower cortisol, you know. Better sleep better vitamin d absorption regulated heart rate, and it's like, go for a walk around the block. Take your dog out, you know. Go for a bike ride, do some gardening, or sit on your porch and have a coffee 20 min outside. We can all do that right, and then talks about the idea of 5 h once a month.
(14:07):
Right? So take a Saturday and go for a bike. Ride in the river valley, or, you know, go paddle boarding or go camping. You know that kind of a simple thing like try to take some time and be intentional in being outdoors, maybe like skiing, maybe, like, you know, swimming whatever.
And then 3 is the 3 days off grid once a year, right? And so that was a little harder, but it talks about greater cognitive restoration, which is essentially giving your brain a break right? And all of these health benefits that come from it. And I loved hearing this because it puts parameters around it instead of get outside. It's like, Take 20 min and you'll improve.
(14:45):
Great! That's easy.
Govindh Jayaraman (14:47):
Yeah. And and it is easy. I mean, I know in my case.
my 20 min outside and lots of neuroscientists are talking about the value of this.
Huberman talks about it. Everybody talks about the value of this 20 min outside, and it's a short walk in the morning and the afternoon with the dogs, gets me outside guaranteed every single day, so I felt that value. I like this 5 h once a month, and this is again 5 h once a month outside, and 3 days
(15:18):
off grid. So what does off grid mean in this.
Steven Langer (15:22):
I know.
Govindh Jayaraman (15:22):
In this sense, what does that really mean.
Steven Langer (15:25):
Go camping right like, Do something like that. Go out to the go to a national park, stay in a hotel, but just
actually don't bring your phone. Don't bring your laptop and go for a hike. Right? You know something like that, if you can. Anything where you're intentionally engaging with the outdoors right? And so it doesn't have to be dramatic. It can be just, you know, whether you like, whether it's camping or fishing hiking, or, you know biking trips with friends for a few days, whatever it be, to get you outside.
(15:55):
away from the busyness and pull
that's within your space. And I should say like that 20 min outside. How often do you go for a walk outside? But you're scrolling your phone the whole time. That completely negates the whole process right instead. What I would suggest is to do a 5 senses walk sounds kind of hokey, but it works right. So start your day, start your walk by saying, Okay, what can I see?
(16:18):
And take 2 min and just focus on what you see around you?
Right? Take a look at the trees. Take a look at the leaves. Who's playing outside? Maybe there's an airplane flying overhead. What do you see? Then you move on to what do you hear right listening to the kids playing? Listen to the crunch of the snow under your feet. If that's the thing or the rain that's falling right then what do you smell? Right? Take the time. Walk your way through the senses, and at the end, for what do you taste? Swing by your favorite coffee shop, and actually just enjoy a coffee rather than pound one back on your way to work like, taste it, enjoy it, savor it.
(16:51):
What it does is, it gets you in this mindful space where you're outside of the chaos of your day. You're outside of all the other business, and you're just giving yourself a minute
to focus.
Govindh Jayaraman (17:02):
Activating 5 senses is really powerful as a tool. And and and I think if somebody is listening right now, and if it's not something that they can
feel like. Oh, I can't! I can't go for a walk right now.
You could probably bring that into any moment, couldn't you? You know, you could just take that moment right here
and think about as you're listening to the podcast what do you see?
(17:26):
What do you hear? Hopefully our voices. And what do you smell?
What do you feel, and what do you taste? I think those are really powerful. That's a really powerful tool.
I want to come back to something that you talked about. And this is a really dramatic number
70. We are 70% less productive when working at a fatigue level.
and and then you combined it with the fact that most of us are working from some level of fatigue as it is, and this chronic level of fatigue. So somewhere, listening right now, people are saying, Great!
(18:00):
I get it. I'm gassed.
Steven Langer (18:02):
Like, I, you win. Yeah, thanks.
Govindh Jayaraman (18:06):
Thank you very much. I know I'm gassed.
but what do I do about it? I'm trying, and I can't get anywhere. So you're talking about designer to a fault. You're talking about intentional things that can move you forward. But what's something? You know you've given us this great 5 senses walk. But how? How long do we have to work at this to get rid of chronic fatigue?
Steven Langer (18:30):
Well, that's the thing is like, if we're doing enough to keep us at a baseline
right then, if we're already at a chronic fatigue state. We actually need to do more to get us back down right. And so there is an element of like. It'd be better if we could do it before we get to that point, because then you're maintaining before you're having to reinvest, that the reality is, if you don't, then I'm sorry. But if we're going to continue pushing ourselves towards Burnout, it's going to come. I found out the hard way, and my goal is that it doesn't have to happen for you.
(19:01):
Now, that said, life's busy. Life's tough for everybody. So the idea of like, well, just, you know, take time for you and do all these things. That sounds great, but some people are really pushing just to to make it to the end of the day. So it goes back to intention for me. We all have moments where we can
redesign the space, so you make it to the end of the day. You know you got the dishes finally done. The kids are in bed, or just whatever your day is finally done, and it's so easy just to get horizontal. Watch Netflix and scroll whatever social media platform
(19:31):
instead.
go sit on your porch with a cup of tea or something like that, and just have silence. Just create space for quiet. But it's more intentional design to that space right when you're with your kids at a soccer game. If that's something that you do like, I that I do try and give yourself. Don't don't get on your phone while your kids are watching your game.
(19:53):
Maybe you do like 10 min of a of an outdoor workout while they're doing their practice. And then you 0 back in and just watch. Just watch your kid right? It's trying to think about in that moment when I'm driving home. Hey? Turn on the paper napkin, wisdom. Podcast but after that's done right, turn it off and just have a moment to yourself, instead of filling it with noise.
Govindh Jayaraman (20:15):
Right.
And and I think that once we because you say we're designed for rest.
right? So once we start to play with that idea, won't we gravitate to the things that work best for us?
Steven Langer (20:30):
Okay. So back to the sleep thing that I talked about where I wake up and I go for my walk in my slippers. I'm a habitual snoozer, like 3 years I would wake up and and crank that snooze button 5, 10 times.
and it hit me. That's like if my body doesn't know when I'm waking up. Then I'm waking up exhausted, and it's like, Wake up just kidding. Go back to bed, wake up, just kidding, go back to bed. And so I thought, Okay, for a moment. I'm going to try something different and just test it. So I set the alarm for the same time every day.
(20:58):
I now wake up 5 min before my alarm every day. I don't even need it anymore, which is weird, but it's great, you know, and then up I go. My coffee's pre-made. That's an intentional step where you know this morning's me is thankful that last night's me pre-made the coffee.
and then off I go. And now I it started out, as you know. Just get outside and take 2 min, and now I thrive off of that. And what's awesome is even this morning. My daughter. She's 10, and she said, Dad, can I come with you? Absolutely right? And now she's like Dad. This is amazing, like, check out the flowers. And like you saw our neighbor. And so she's now engaging in that, too. So it builds. You're right. Once you start, it builds momentum.
Govindh Jayaraman (21:39):
Right.
And we.
I think we're also designed to make it better, right when we you've improved how you rest that design model that you've created for yourself has improved because you've built momentum around it. You've got some. You've got a taste for it, and you are adding things to it that work for you? Right?
(22:04):
Yeah. And I think.
Steven Langer (22:05):
One of the things one of the things to stress is like what is rest.
And so for me, like 2 things that I love to do for rest. One of them is, take my dog to the off leash.
right? And so I that's not sleep. We're not talking about sleep. We're talking about things that get you back to Baseline and bring renewal. So when I take my dog to be off leash, I'm outside. I'm in nature. I'm kind of having a moment just to myself. It's where most of my great ideas for my speaking engagements come from. But I'm watching her run around in the trees and play with the other dogs, and it's just kind of like a happy moment for me. Right? So that's rest.
(22:39):
you know. For me, another one is tennis. I love playing tennis, you know. You gotta get against another partner and playing against someone. There's strategy to it. If you're frustrated, just crush a serve. Who cares if it goes in or not? All those things? Those are rest because they bring me more energy when I'm finished than when I started.
So.
Govindh Jayaraman (22:59):
I really, I really love that. I remember
a billion years ago there was a paper napkin that was given to me by Michael Walsh
and Michael Walsh talks about that. We all have 4 energy buckets, and we can fill them up one at a time, or we can fill them all up, but for you know, we can do them all at the same time. And there's a
(23:19):
physical bucket. There's a mental bucket, there's an emotional bucket, and there's a spiritual bucket and the high value our activities that we engage in fill all 4 simultaneously. And he gave this great example of yeah, I could run in the treadmill in my basement, and that'll refill my physical bucket. But I take that run outside and I'm filling all 4 of my buckets.
(23:40):
and you just identified.
you know you could take your dog out to the off leash, and that fills all 4 of your buckets because.
Steven Langer (23:49):
That's a great way to put it. I like that.
Govindh Jayaraman (23:51):
As opposed to just filling one of them. So we can each find those high value activities that fill all of our buckets simultaneously. And we can design for that. We can. We can build for that. And that's what you call rest. You say that that is truly where we rest, because we're refilling our buckets right.
Steven Langer (24:11):
Yeah, yeah, I think also, sometimes people put pressure around those things where it's like, I gotta get my rest in. I got. And then it becomes a thing in itself.
Life is hard, life's complex, and and there are days where it's like I'd love to get to the off leash, and there is no time.
That is okay.
But the reality is that when you cancel those things right, then, your baseline for your your stress response, your anxiety, the fight flight freeze all that. It goes higher. And you just have to recognize that if it's like, okay for one day, I gotta not do something for myself and bring myself higher. Okay, you just have to not allow that to compound upon itself. You gotta get your. You got to get your time in to bring yourself back to Baseline.
Govindh Jayaraman (24:51):
I mean, I think that's a huge part of this gift. And I think it's amazing that you've made this such an intentional part. You know you're taking your own lessons have made this a part of what you're sharing with the world.
Listen.
somewhere out there right now. There's somebody who's just struggling with this idea doesn't know where to get started. And and you've given them the 5 senses
(25:13):
and the 5 senses walk. We've talked about energy buckets, and you've even talked about your own morning routine. What's something that you know?
And you? You talked about it as a possibility right now.
what's something that people could do
right now right here, that they could start this journey
and build rest into their day.
Steven Langer (25:35):
You know what I think. It's unique to everyone in that we all have different ways that we do find ourselves grounded and reconnected. I would say, take the thing that brings you the most joy, or take the thing that you enjoy like you, that brings you happiness along the way throughout your day and start it in small doses. So for example, for like for some people that's gardening like, okay, great. Just take 5 min.
(26:00):
5 min and go garden, and then come back in no pressure 5 min, and just see what that does for you, right for my wife, for her. She needs that time to herself to really kind of reground herself. She'll take a cup of tea and a book upstairs into the bedroom, shut the door, and it's like her time, whether it's a magazine or a book. She's having a cup of tea. She needs time to herself, and she knows that that's how she feels it, and she engages in that way. Let me tell you, if you open up the door, someone better be dying, because that is her time
(26:31):
so, but but like it doesn't have to be anything heroic or anything crazy, just whatever it is for you that, you know.
gets you back to Baseline.
Stop putting it aside, there's a really cool quote I'd love to. I'd love to put you put forward. It's don't wait till you're thirsty to dig your well.
Govindh Jayaraman (26:49):
Right.
Steven Langer (26:50):
And I mean it's a classic proverb, but it's like, don't wait until you're burnt out, stressed and exhausted to start taking care of yourself
right? You gotta do it before invest in yourself, because that way you are your best self for the people, for the jobs, for the work, for yourself along the way.
Govindh Jayaraman (27:10):
And if you are burned out, if you're listening to this right now, and you are burned out. And you're thinking, Oh, yeah, sure. But I am thirsty, and I am tired, and I am this, then? Yeah, the best time to do this may have been before, but the next best time is right now.
Steven Langer (27:23):
Bingo!
Govindh Jayaraman (27:23):
That's a really really powerful takeaway.
Stephen. Thank you for joining me. There is one thing that I want to ask you for.
Yes, sir, the end of
every episode this season we've been sort of doing a shout out to a former paper, napkin Wisdom guest. His name was John Ruland. He was on the show
11 years ago, and he shared with us a great sentiment which is what you appreciate, appreciates, and that sounds really aligned with the message that you've just shared here.
(27:50):
But his message was, when you appreciate people, when you give love to people, they rise.
And so we've been asking
our guests to end each episode with a moment of gratitude for someone who they can appreciate along the way. Who would you like to shout out.
Steven Langer (28:07):
Yeah, happily shut up, Mike Schoenberger. He's the CEO of Sunco communication and installation in based in Edmonton. He and I have connected recently and had some really great heart dialogues where it's like, let's just open up our minds to the possibility of authentic connections. And the idea that you're you're put in a place for a reason, and that you can then lift each other up.
(28:31):
And so part of it. I get a lot of joy, and I know Mike does as well from being able to really just put someone in a place to thrive. And if I can help you if I can lift you up. Great. So he and I have been back and forth doing that, connecting in that way, and it's been really awesome to see how we've been able to support each other in that. He's doing some great things with his organization in terms of helping the wellness in in their space. And so, yeah, I'd like to do a shout out to Mike.
Govindh Jayaraman (28:58):
Yeah, can I not often do I get the opportunity to join in someone's shout out, because I would know the person in this case. I know Mike very well as well. He's a dear friend, and if you don't know him, reach out to him because he's
wonderful, wonderful soul. And one thing you can say about Mike is, he'll make time for you because he is designed for rest, and he understands what it means to lift some lift where he stands, and that's a great shout out, thank you, Stephen.
Steven Langer (29:29):
Right back at you. Thanks for the time.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.