328 | When They Want It Left Just the Way It Was - Permanence Response in CCPT - Play Therapy Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
a master class in child-centered play therapy
and practical support and application for your
work with children and their families.
In today's episode,
I'm answering a question from Nicole in Orlando.

(00:24):
Shout out to my native Floridian girl.
I don't know if you're a native,
but you at least live in Florida.
So exciting to hear that there are some
more play therapists around here in our little
dangling peninsula
and
I'm excited about this question.
Nicole wrote in about
when a child wants things to stay the same

(00:45):
after the session is over,
meaning they've created something or they hid
something or they worked on something,
and they want it to be exactly like that when they come back.
And how to handle that.
So this is a really helpful scenario.
Thank you,
Nicole,
for emailing in.
And
by the way,
this is just a little anecdote.
When I started my practice in 2005,

(01:07):
I was in Pinellas County at the time,
which
that means nothing to most of you,
I'm sure,
but it's where Clearwater Beach lives.
So if you've heard of or been to Clearwater Beach,
that is in Pinellas County.
That is my county of origin.
That's where I grew up.
And
in Pinellas County,
there were a million people at the time in that county.

(01:27):
And I was the only play therapist in the whole county in 2005.
In a million people.
I was the only one.
So it makes my heart happy
that there are more play therapists in Florida now,
and
I'm so glad that
we have a presence
in
Florida,

(01:47):
in Pinellas in Pasco,
the tri-county area,
the,
the Tampa Bay area.
There are so many more play therapists now.
And so that is something that I've seen grow and change over time.
And it's exciting to see that and I know many of you have said that where you live,
there are more play therapists than there used to be.
So we're,
we're tackling the mental health of kids one play therapist at a time,

(02:11):
and I'm pleased with that.
OK,
so let me read parts of this email to you and then we will dive in.
We have a room at the center called the kids' room.
It does not meet the requirements to be formally called a playroom,
but we alternate using with our younger clients.
There is a box of Legos.
Inside the box were instructions for how to use
the Legos to assemble different objects like a fish,

(02:33):
a flamingo,
and a house.
My client spent most of the session making all of the
objects listed on the instruction packet and was very proud.
He's an eight year old boy who came in with existing diagnoses of ODD and ADHD,
probably
unwarranted,
but.
They're,
they're there
in and of itself.
I cleaned up the room after the session,

(02:53):
proceeded to disassemble all the items he had made,
put them back in the box.
When the client came back the following week,
he ran straight to the box
and began frantically looking for the objects he had previously made.
He asked me what happened to the items,
and I reflected,
You're wondering what happened to the things you made.
Eventually,
I explained that this is a shared office and that
other clinicians and children use the room for their sessions.

(03:14):
The client was confused and began asking more questions.
Do you know who is in here?
Can you tell them not to use the Legos next time?
And so on.
I told him this is part of our sharing.
This is part of our sharing the space that every
child gets to use the toys like he does.
He spent the remainder of the session remaking
all of the objects that he had previously made
and attempted to hide them in the room so they would remain intact for the next time.

(03:36):
Knowing we have a small supply of Legos and that
most of them were used to make the objects,
I knew that I couldn't allow the pieces to remain hidden for a
week and not allow my colleagues to use them with their clients.
I attempted to use choice giving by saying,
if you choose to hide the Legos,
you choose to be OK if they get found and played with before our next session.
He chose to continue hiding the Legos and left.
When he came back next time,

(03:57):
the same thing happened.
He went back to the hiding spots,
frantically looked for the items he had built,
and asked what happened to them.
I reminded him when he chose to hide them last week that this was a possibility,
and I reflected,
you're frustrated and you're disappointed that the
Legos weren't how you left them.
He spent the remainder of the session rebuilding the items again.
He asked me more questions about who else uses the room.

(04:18):
Can I ask my colleagues who were also in the office if they know what happened?
Did I see any other kids using them?
I tried to reflect that I understand how important it is to him,
but I didn't have an answer to his questions,
and I was not going to interrupt other sessions to find out.
At the end of the session,
he asked if I could hide his items in the other rooms in the office.
I told him that we were not going to hide the items again.

(04:40):
He asked me why,
and I responded something with,
Because other kids get to use them when they come here just like you do.
That answer was not sufficient for him and resulted in more back and forth.
Eventually I told him that I couldn't promise that his
Legos wouldn't be used between now and next week,
and I didn't want him to be disappointed.
He seemed to understand this and left the session without trying to hide the Legos.

(05:01):
While my answer was honest,
I didn't want him to feel disappointed.
I understand that this was not the best response.
I'm also wondering how I should respond when my kids ask to make sure that no one
colors on their page in the coloring book or uses a certain item when they're gone,
as this has happened previously with other clients.
There are things I have no control over and cannot guarantee,

(05:22):
but I'm not sure what would be an appropriate way to say that.
All right,
so really helpful scenario,
especially when it persisted the amount of time that it did.
So,
Nicole,
in this scenario,
the very first moment that a child
chooses to request that something stay exactly the same.

(05:43):
Or they attempt to hide something that they've created
and they say something along the lines of.
I'm gonna hide it so that no one touches it and
then it'll be here when I come back next time,
or I'm gonna make sure that no one plays with this,
so I'm gonna put it behind such and such.
So whenever we have a sense that the child is needing that permanence,

(06:03):
so let me,
let me sidetrack for a second.
When a child wants something exactly the same way,
when they hide it,
when they try to conceal it,
when they bury it,
when they want it to be exactly where it is,
there's a permanent need there.
So if we understand the why,
often that helps us with our responses.

(06:23):
He is wanting
to have predictability
and constancy,
and he wants it to be where it is
likely because there's probably very little in his
life that is constant and stable and consistent.
And or it's a need for power and control,
which might be a related aside.
But either way,

(06:44):
he wants it to be predictable.
And that permanence need is coming up.
So whenever that
shows up in a playroom,
we're going to acknowledge the feeling,
the need,
the desire,
the intention.
Oh,
you're wanting to hide that so no one plays with it,
or you're choosing to put that there hoping that

(07:05):
no one will touch it before you come back.
OK,
so we're going to reflect
and then we're going to set a neutral expectation.
It's not a limit,
it's not even a choice.
It's just
an acknowledgement of factual expectation.
Oh,
you're really hoping that no one will touch that

(07:25):
between now and then,
but you know other kids play in this room.
And there's where
we declare what the scenario is.
You have this hope,
need,
desire,
wish,
feeling.
But other kids play in this room.
And then that sometimes will prompt the same exact questions that you got.

(07:46):
Well,
who plays in here?
Well,
what do they do?
Well,
how old are they?
Well,
are they boys or girls?
Well,
what are their names?
Well,
can you tell them not to?
Well,
I don't want anyone to touch this.
Well,
blah blah blah.
So
you might still get the same response and then you reflect that.
Mm.
You really are hoping
that it's exactly where you left it,

(08:06):
but other kids come in here and play,
so you get to see next time if it's still there.
Or you can choose to check next time you come in and see if it's still there.
And you're making it clear without actually setting a limit.
You're making it clear that there is the possibility
that

(08:26):
other kids are going to find it,
move it,
play with it,
disassemble it,
whatever the scenario is.
Another component of this is when a kid says,
don't clean this up.
They're halfway through a marble run build
or they're halfway through their sand world,
or they're halfway through something with Lincoln logs.

(08:49):
And,
oh,
maybe that's not an international toy.
I don't know.
If you all have no idea what Lincoln logs are,
they're
the little cut out wooden pieces that you can stack in certain ways
to build essentially what looks like log cabins and things like that.
So
very
old school kind of toy.
They're called Lincoln logs,
Google search,

(09:10):
you'll see what I'm talking about.
So
they're right mid
construction of something and they say,
don't clean this up.
Leave this exactly like it is so that I can finish it next week.
OK,
in that scenario,
factual expectation setting that it's not other kids playing there.
In that scenario,
it's,
but you know that I clean up before other kids come in to play.

(09:35):
We're always telling the truth,
age appropriately,
factual expectation setting.
You know other kids come in here,
you know that I clean up in between sessions.
Yeah,
but I really don't want you to clean this up because I really wanna do this next time.
Oh,
you wish that you could have it exactly like this next time,
but you know that I clean up in between each kid that I play with.

(09:59):
OK,
so
now what you've established
is the expectation.
Then you can still reflect feelings
if they're disappointed,
if they're frustrated,
if they're hopeful,
if whatever's going on emotionally,
you reflect that.
The questions
are means to an end.
All the questions he's asking,

(10:20):
Can you ask who else was in here and did they see other kids using them?
It's,
that's not really what he wants the answers to.
He's trying to ensure
that his stuff's going to be untouched or it's going to be where he left it,
or it's going to be protected from whatever.
So the questions are means to an end.
That's not really what he wants to know.

(10:43):
And so,
oh,
it's really important to you.
That you make sure no one touches that.
You are really wishing
that you could guarantee that would be there when you got back.
So those are the ways that we handle all of the incessant questions.
And

(11:04):
To tweak a little bit about what happened at the end.
So,
you said that you were not going to hide the items again.
That's
no longer adherent to the model.
So he gets to choose whatever he wants to do with his things.
So you're just going to say,
oh,
you're choosing to hide them again,
even though last time you hid them,

(11:24):
you knew that they weren't there when you came back.
We're not going to set a limit on hiding toys.
Because
that's a big part of the CCPT process.
Kids hide things.
So we would not set a limit on that.
We would just have already set expectations that it may not turn out the way that
he was intending for it to.

(11:46):
And
when you said other kids use them when they come here just like you do,
that's a helpful expectation setting.
You know other kids use them
when they come here just like you do.
That's a very helpful thing to say.
It just doesn't need to be the justification for why he's not allowed to hide things.
And then

(12:07):
you didn't want him to be disappointed.
All right,
so I'm glad that this came up.
We are wired
to shield kids,
to safeguard,
to rescue,
to fix,
to problem solve,
to spare them from whatever it is.
This is why we're child therapists.
This is why we're CCPT

(12:27):
because we would,
if we had the choice,
we would protect kids from stuff like this.
And that's a very common thing
where we have to stop ourselves from being the
one that's trying to save a kid from something.
So saying,
I don't want you to be disappointed.
That's agenda driven,
even though it is with the most

(12:48):
helpful and loving and kind of intentions,
it's agenda driven.
So we can't
try to keep a kid from being disappointed.
That has
no place in a CCPT playroom.
We're going to sit in the pocket of the disappointment with the child.
We're going to reflect the disappointment of the child.
We're going to let them figure out how to get themselves out of that disappointment,

(13:12):
but we're not trying to spare them
or protect them from it.
So everything you said up to that point.
I'm not sure if the Legos are gonna be in the same spot next time because
you know other kids come in here and you know other kids play with things.
I don't know if they're gonna be in here next time.
That's a truthful acknowledgement,
you're not sure.

(13:35):
But to say I don't want you to be disappointed,
we just eliminate that part of what was said.
So everything leading up to that point would be helpful for him to know.
And then we're not going to have an agenda
that we want him to be happy
or that we want to spare him from that disappointment.
And then if a kid asks you to make sure that no one colors on the page,

(13:57):
I would turn that into a choice
because for us once a child uses a page in a coloring book,
it's used so they can choose to take it home or
they can choose to have me keep it in their folder
or if they choose neither then they choose for us to throw it away.
So in that scenario,
I would say,

(14:17):
you're really hoping that no one colors in this coloring book page,
you can choose to take it home with you and finish it,
or you can choose for me to keep it in your folder for you,
which do you choose?
And then
they can ensure that no one colors in their page,
but it doesn't sit in the playroom.

(14:37):
Because no kid wants to color
on someone else's coloring page.
Kids will flip through a 400 page coloring book
until they find a blank page to color on.
No one wants to color where someone else has already colored.
And so therefore,
once a child has colored on something or in something,
it kind of becomes theirs,

(14:59):
so they get to choose whether they take it home or
whether they choose to have us keep it in the file.
If they choose for us to keep it in the file,
then they can choose to color on it the next time they come,
or they can choose to color on it at home and finish it if they take it with them.
So that one was a much easier fix,
Nicole.
All right,
so I hope that that's helpful for you,
Nicole.
Thank you for the email.

(15:19):
I hope that that's helpful for all of us.
We always have kids.
That want things to be a certain way to preserve them,
to hide them,
to keep them,
to do whatever
and this is a standard part of having lots of clients that all want different things,
how to navigate that.
So this was a really helpful question.
I'm glad we had a chance to talk about it.
All right,
if you want to send me an email,

(15:40):
please do brenna@thekidcounselor.com.
I love y'all.
I'm grateful for you.
Continue to love your kids,
continue to love this model,
continue to trust the process.
And continue to watch kids self-actualize
with gratitude
and
with excitement
that you're on the front line of watching kids heal.

(16:03):
It is the most incredible opportunity
I think that we're given
if you're a mental health professional
to see children become better versions of themselves right in front of you.
I don't think that there's anything better in this entire field
than that.
So be encouraged,
know that you're loved.
We'll talk again soon.

(16:24):
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
Brenna Hicks.
For more episodes and resources,
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.

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328 | When They Want It Left Just the Way It Was - Permanence Response in CCPT

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