April 15, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode of the CCPT Purism series, I talk about a critical but often overlooked common drift points that shift us from pure CCPT practice. These are small, often unconscious shifts we make in session—like redirecting, interpreting play, or using reflective questions—that quietly pull us out of full CCPT adherence. I explore common causes of drift, including anxiety, pressure for outcomes, prior training in other modalities, and the instinct to be helpful.
I also walk through real examples of what these drifts look like in session and why they matter—because every drift adds adult control and takes ownership away from the child. When we drift, we undermine the very conditions that make CCPT effective. This episode is a challenge to bring intentionality, self-awareness, and recalibration into your sessions so you can remain fully aligned with the purity of the model.
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Ask Me Questions: Call (813) 812-5525, or email: brenna@thekidcounselor.com
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APT Approved Play Therapy CE courses: https://childcenteredtraining.com
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Common References:
Cochran, N., Nordling, W., & Cochran, J. (2010). Child-Centered Play Therapy (1st ed.). Wiley.
VanFleet, R., Sywulak, A. E., & Sniscak, C. C. (2010). Child-centered play therapy. Guilford Press.
Landreth, G.L. (2023). Play Therapy: The Art of the Relationship (4th ed.). Routledge.
Bratton, S. C., Landreth, G. L., Kellam, T., & Blackard, S. R. (2006). Child parent relationship therapy (CPRT) treatment manual: A 10-session filial therapy model for training parents. Routledge/Taylor & Francis Group.
Benedict, Helen. Themes in Play Therapy. Used with permission to Heartland Play Therapy Institute.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
a master class in child-centered play therapy
and practical support and application for your
work with children and their families.
In today's episode,
we are continuing in the CCPT purism series.
(00:24):
And we're going to talk about
drifts
and or shifts
that we often make
that either dilute the model or change the model into something else entirely,
and these are typically subtle
and often unbeknownst to us,
and often we're not even aware that we're doing it,
(00:45):
but these little subtle things will actually
create a drift away from CCPT.
And usually they're well-meaning,
if we are aware of them,
but they undermine the power
of the model.
So we're gonna dive into that
before we get there,
just wanted to say a huge thank you to
(01:05):
each and every one of you.
I was thinking about.
Y'all last week,
I was not able to record more than one podcast episode because I was so swamped with
CEUs for Corwell and all kinds of other things that were going on.
I was starting new groups and anyway,
it was just,
it was very,
very hectic,
and I was only able to record one podcast and
I just realized how much I missed it and I missed you.
(01:28):
And
so I just wanted to say thank you,
thank you for giving me something to look forward to each week.
Thank you for spending time with me each week.
I really deeply and genuinely appreciate y'all and not just for my sake because
it it does fill me up very much,
but
for the sake of your children and your families and your communities
(01:48):
and this generation at large,
I'm really grateful that each and every one of you take the time to
work on being CCPT.
And the time that you invest and the energy that you put forth,
and the commitment that you make
it
in the grand scheme means that you're changing the world,
one session at a time,
(02:08):
one kid at a time,
one family at a time.
And so I really am grateful and I wanted you all to know that.
OK,
so back to content.
So,
let's really quickly,
so last week we talked about
CCPT structure
and
it often looks very free
(02:29):
and very unstructured,
but we did a pretty
Significant look at how it is not.
And
I think often even with the structure that
we know exists even with the structure that
we can identify
many therapists unknowingly drift away from the
model and sometimes they're very small deviations which
(02:52):
I think in big picture seem relatively harmless
but they pull you out of
CCPT
and once you're out of CCPT
we lose
evidence,
we lose efficacy.
And we lose alignment
because our groundedness and our framework
(03:13):
is what influences everything that we do in sessions.
And so as soon as we are away from that,
we lose our footing.
And that's dangerous.
So
I think in its simplest definition,
at least my explanation of it,
I think a drift is when we step outside the boundaries
of the model
(03:34):
and it's usually rather subtle,
especially if you have been
CCPT for a while,
if you feel like you have a pretty solid theoretical foundation.
It's not going to be egregious deviations.
You're not going to sit down and provide a worksheet to a child,
and you're not going to
say good job to a child in a session.
(03:56):
But I think often the subtleties are there
and
it's sometimes not even in our conscious awareness.
So some of the things that I've seen pretty consistently in my reviews
of play sessions and just speaking with lots of CCPTs around the world,
I think there are usually some pretty consistent reasons
why the drifts take place in the first place,
(04:16):
and I'm just going to share a few.
This is not meant to be
a complete list by any means,
but I think often it comes from our own anxieties.
When we are unsure,
when we are concerned,
when we're nervous,
when we are worried
about
the process,
the child,
the outcomes,
the pace,
(04:36):
whatever it is,
I think our own anxieties can often be at the root
of why we make those subtle shifts.
I think another pretty consistent one is
our
bent toward helpfulness.
And what I mean by that is,
we,
we are helpers.
We are givers,
(04:57):
we are servers,
we are helpers.
And often in sessions,
we just have this really
almost insatiable desire to help.
And if we indulge that desire,
and look really in in the in the regular world,
outside of CCPT
I don't think anyone would say
(05:18):
you should curb your need to help people.
But CCPT
requires that the child helps themselves.
And so we do actually have to be aware of that and stop that.
We,
our desire to be helpful,
can't override the model.
Another reason I've observed is pressure,
(05:40):
external pressure,
usually for results.
In other words,
the parents are really pushing.
They want something fixed yesterday,
teachers,
principals,
pediatricians,
attorneys,
there's there's all of these stakeholders that make it really difficult
to honor the pace of the child
(06:00):
and
trust the process of CCPT.
So often we,
if,
if we shift,
if there are drifts away,
it can come from the pressure that we feel.
And then also I think it's really tricky
for therapists that were trained in other modalities.
If you did not
come from a CCPT background from the beginning.
(06:23):
So if you were
very directive,
if you were eclectic,
if you were a modality mix,
if you had a background in education,
if you had a background in other things related to children.
There is usually kind of that muscle memory that kicks in.
And we're we're not even
paying attention to the fact that we're saying
(06:44):
and doing things that are not aligned theoretically
because we have training in other approaches.
So again,
not meant to be a comprehensive list,
but
really common reasons why I've noticed drifts and here's why this matters.
Every single drift
undermines the child's ownership
of the process.
(07:06):
Think about that.
If our anxiety
influences it,
if our desire to be helpful influences it,
if our pressure for results influences it,
or if our training
and other modalities influences it.
What that means
is that
the child no longer has ownership of the process.
(07:27):
And we would never
accept that.
We would never embrace that.
We would never
acknowledge that that is the way that we want to handle sessions.
But it happens,
and often it's just because we're not even cognizant of it.
So,
what are some
consistent drifts?
(07:47):
Those are the consistent reasons why I've noticed drifts.
What are some of the common drifts?
Often our tone.
Or our words.
Indicate even very subtly that the child has pleased us.
Now,
before I continue,
let me make sure that you all understand what I'm not saying,
(08:10):
because I know sometimes my words get misinterpreted
and I don't want that to happen.
It's not that we can't find something funny and laugh.
It's not that we can't smile because of something that happens in session.
It's not that we can't
be affected by something that's go that goes on that goes back to congruence.
(08:30):
So that is not what I'm implying with that statement at all.
What I mean is that our tone or our words
imply that the child has made us happy or pleased us.
That is different.
Because if a child tells you a joke or does or says something funny and you laugh,
that's relational,
that's connective,
that's congruent.
But if a child.
(08:52):
Brings you food that he cooked you.
And you go,
thank you.
That was so nice.
Now all of a sudden
we have implied
that the fact that the child made us something,
gave us something or did something for us
made us happy.
The child has pleased us.
(09:14):
We've no longer managed to maintain neutrality.
So I think really this comes back to neutrality
and we did a neutrality series for this reason.
So if you're new to the podcast and you do not remember neutrality series,
you probably are too new to remember that.
Please go back,
start episode one and welcome,
by the way,
if you're new.
(09:34):
When we think about
the way that we subtly imply
that the child has pleased us,
here's the danger
because that replaces unconditional acceptance
with conditional approval.
When you do something that makes me happy,
you get acknowledged.
When you do something that pleases me,
(09:55):
my tone changes when you do something that I was hoping you would do,
I'm going to value you with my words.
Now all of a sudden
we're kind of
moving into that praise
concept.
We're we're hopefully,
Lord willing in the creek don't rise.
We're not saying good job to a kid in session.
(10:16):
We're not saying that picture's beautiful.
We're not saying
you're amazing.
Hopefully not.
If,
if you're new,
you'll,
you'll learn really quickly why you need to encourage instead.
Again,
go back and listen to episode in order from one.
But
we have to be mindful
that even saying something like,
thank you,
that was so nice.
(10:36):
All of a sudden now,
the child can interpret that as,
well,
I need to replicate that and do that again because I
really made him or her feel good.
We've completely lost the intention
and neutrality is gone at that point.
So that's a subtle drift.
Another
subtle drift.
We use I wonder statements in lieu of questions.
(10:59):
So the question isn't necessary.
The question isn't needed.
It's not clinically relevant information that we're trying to gather.
And so we know if you know enough to ask a question,
you don't have to make a statement.
So we've learned not to ask questions.
So we will instead use an I wonder statement.
See that's our workaround.
Oh,
I didn't ask the child a question.
(11:20):
But you say,
I wonder how you feel about that.
I wonder what you think about that.
I wonder what happened at school today.
I wonder what you're gonna make with those Legos.
I wonder why you're building that tower.
Now all of a sudden.
It's moving the child into their head.
That's cognitive process that's required.
(11:41):
It pulls them out
of their experience.
It pulls them out of their feelings.
And now all of a sudden,
they're up in their head trying to answer your question,
even though technically,
grammatically it was a statement.
I wonder statements are reserved for clinically necessary information,
so
child says.
(12:03):
We're going to have to build a bomb shelter.
Go
I wonder what I do first.
Notice I whispered my wonder.
I'm notorious for that.
You don't have to do that.
I wonder what we do first.
So,
that would be clinically necessary information
and that would be an appropriate opportunity
(12:25):
to wonder because if you're supposed to be helping build a bomb shelter,
you don't know what that means to the child until you're given a directive or a cue.
But a subtle drift is we will
work information gathering statements into our sessions
basically as questions.
And that
undermines the process as well.
(12:46):
Another scenario,
we interpret things or we assume things.
So,
We might say,
oh,
you're building a wall to protect yourself.
Well,
unless the child has said or indicated that
we don't know that.
(13:07):
Child starts
hitting and punching and kicking Bobo,
and we say,
oh,
you're really angry.
Well,
unless that's been indicated,
we don't know that.
We should not assume that.
We need to be very careful about presumption in the playroom,
and remember,
we do not interpret the play.
The goal is never to interpret the play.
(13:30):
Because interpretation removes the child's freedom.
To assign their own meaning.
And sometimes,
let's be really blunt,
sometimes
the child doesn't know the meaning,
we don't know the meaning,
and it doesn't matter.
A lot of play is subconscious.
The child may not have any sense of meaning of what they're doing.
(13:51):
They don't need to know.
We don't need to know.
We don't want to
interpret what's going on.
We clearly want to track and reflect
if it's provided to us.
But we should not be presuming,
assuming,
or interpreting.
Another subtle drift is
trying to redirect.
(14:12):
So child has been.
Kicking Bobo into the wall
for 26 minutes,
and every time the child kicks Bobo into the wall.
It resonates down the whole hallway.
You feel and hear and experience
the walls shaking
(14:32):
because of how hard that that door is getting hit with Bobo.
And then you're going,
oh my gosh,
all my colleagues and the people in the lobby,
and this kid's parents,
and everyone's gonna be so mad and the clinical director is gonna come and talk to me
and say that it was so disruptive for all the other sessions that were going on.
This is what happens.
We get in our heads.
That's also a subtle drift,
(14:53):
by the way,
but that wasn't the point of this.
So we have to avoid that subtle drift too.
We get in our own heads.
But
once that happens,
we think of clever,
try to be adherent ways
to
maybe
get the child to not do that anymore.
So instead of setting a limit,
which would be fully adherent.
(15:14):
We might say something like.
Oh,
You haven't played it in the sand in a while.
Or
Did you,
oh,
we wouldn't ask a question though,
would we?
So I wonder if you saw the dollhouse.
And now all of a sudden we're trying to
shift or redirect or suggest
(15:37):
because we're uncomfortable with something,
or we're thinking that sometimes it's not even about our discomfort,
sometimes we are trying to lead the child to work through something.
I wonder if you saw the family people over there.
Because they have all kinds of family dysfunction.
Now guess what happened?
You have the lead.
(15:58):
In the session.
And what that communicates to the child is,
I know what you need
more than you.
Or I need,
I know what you need better than you.
And
that robs the child of their process.
Another reason,
trying to hurry things up.
(16:21):
And I don't know if you all are aware of this,
but Landreth refers to certain kids as molasses in his book.
And
they're slow.
And
they're smooth
and
they're easy.
And
they just kind of hang out and
don't have really a sense of urgency for anything.
(16:43):
And then others are described like popcorn,
which gives you
a very different picture in your head.
But for your molasses,
children,
Or as I call them,
your marinators.
We often want to hurry things along.
We push
towards
progress.
(17:03):
We
try to provide insights.
We try to
think that maybe they can terminate
cause that'll make mom and dad really happy.
We're trying to meet adult goals rather than respecting the child's natural pace.
We can't rush the process.
That's one of Axline's principles.
That's one of Landreth's tenants.
(17:24):
We can't rush the process,
but we do it in very subtle ways.
And then finally,
sometimes we are inconsistent.
So this can be with
inconsistency in our speech,
inconsistency in our mannerisms,
inconsistency in the execution of skills,
inconsistency about
(17:44):
the weekly process.
We have to be very consistent.
That's one of the foundational concepts
is that
kids can have predictability,
constancy,
stability.
Why?
Because they don't get that anywhere else.
So,
often,
(18:05):
especially maybe even around limit setting,
for example,
will be inconsistent.
So sometimes we will
set limits
in a very punitive way.
Or sometimes we will not set a limit,
we'll let behavior go
that actually warrants a limit
for fear of maybe damaging rapport
(18:25):
or not being permissive enough.
Sometimes we
will
not use the skills
appropriately.
So
we'll
do something without enough empathy,
or we won't validate feeling,
or we'll jump the gun and set a limit too early before it's needed.
(18:46):
All of this is inconsistent.
And again,
subtle drifts,
but undermines the process.
So why are we talking about this?
Obviously,
I mean,
we're in the CCPT purism and we're trying to make sure
that we not only understand the model in its purest form,
but also its application
in its purest form.
(19:06):
CCPT works because of its purity.
That that really is at the heart of why it's effective is because of its purity.
And every single drift that takes place in the playroom.
It adds adult control
back into the session.
Which
flies in the face of the foundation of CCPT.
(19:29):
It contradicts everything about the model,
the second that the adult is in control.
And unfortunately,
The way that that is received by the child
is.
I can't lead.
Or at the very least,
I can't fully lead.
Maybe I,
I can lead a little bit.
(19:50):
But I can't fully lead.
I'm not fully in charge.
Sometimes the child might interpret that as
my process
isn't trusted.
No one's trusting me
to do this my way,
my time.
Another possibility
(20:11):
This is about pleasing the adult in the room,
or the adult
in the waiting room,
or the adult at school,
or the adult in the court,
or the adult somewhere else in my life.
This is about pleasing the adult.
And
we would bristle at those notions,
hearing them.
(20:32):
But that's what happens when drifts take place in session.
And CCPT works because of its purity.
So the minute we lose the purity,
we lose its efficacy.
So how do we stay anchored in the model?
First of all,
self-awareness,
and I'm not saying that as a platitude because I know we say that all the time,
(20:53):
self-awareness is the first step to change.
Yes,
that's true,
but in this case,
it's extremely relevant.
You have to be aware of where you might be drifting.
Like I mentioned before,
most of the time we're not even aware that we're doing it.
So we have to be more cognizant of those subtle drifts,
number one.
And
often I think it starts with asking ourselves questions.
(21:16):
Am I anxious about?
Making progress.
Am I trying to make the session
feel more productive?
Or do I feel better
when I can say that I quote did something?
Or
am I responding from earlier training?
(21:37):
It is my earlier training or my,
my background seeping in here?
If you
ask yourselves questions,
you can get to the heart of what's causing the drifts.
And then
with that self-awareness,
you can make change.
So,
let's just
(21:57):
recalibrate,
right?
Let's go back to
our basic principles.
We have unconditional acceptance,
rooted in unconditional positive regard from Rogers.
So we unconditionally love and accept the child.
We provide empathy.
In every scenario with the child.
(22:19):
We can always validate,
we can always understand,
we can always reflect what's going on.
We have empathy
We are congruent
And we trust the process.
We believe that kids will self-actualize.
But all of that
(22:39):
goes back to.
The pureness of the model.
It all happens in the purity.
So we have to make sure that we're not allowing drifting
to take place.
So if you find that as you're listening to this,
you're going,
oh boy,
I think I drift way more than I was aware of,
or I think that I didn't even pay attention to the fact that I was drifting.
(23:01):
This is about awareness.
You don't know what you don't know.
So the whole point of you listening to podcasts
is to
increase your skills and make sure that you're more adherent.
Every single therapist drifts at times,
every single one,
no matter how long you've been doing it,
no matter how skilled you are,
no matter how highly trained.
(23:23):
Every single therapist drifts at times.
For a variety of reasons and a variety of ways.
There is not one CCPT on this planet that is fully
adherent at every single moment of their work with kids.
So it's not about shame or blame or guilt or anything,
it's notice
the drift.
(23:44):
And recalibrate,
re-center yourself.
So,
you can be very intentional
about making sure
that you stay as adherent as possible,
but you have to be aware
of the lack of adherence before you can work on that.
So I hope that that's encouraging to you.
I hope that it
(24:04):
Lights a little bit of a fire so that you can
assess this and and challenge yourself if you need to.
They're,
they're small deviations with big impact that that's the big takeaway.
I mean,
a lot of what we talked about,
they're minor subtle deviations,
but they do have big impact and so just even recognizing them
(24:24):
helps you stay committed to CCPT at its core,
and that's what we long for.
So,
next time,
we're going to talk about why
being non-directive is effective.
And the clinical reasoning behind trusting the child's
lead in the non-directive nature of CCPT.
So,
there's your teaser.
(24:45):
I look forward to being with y'all then.
Love you.
We'll talk again soon.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
Brenna Hicks.
For more episodes and resources,
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
a master class in child-centered play therapy
and practical support and application for your
work with children and their families.
In today's episode,
we are continuing in the CCPT purism series.
(00:24):
And we're going to talk about
drifts
and or shifts
that we often make
that either dilute the model or change the model into something else entirely,
and these are typically subtle
and often unbeknownst to us,
and often we're not even aware that we're doing it,
(00:45):
but these little subtle things will actually
create a drift away from CCPT.
And usually they're well-meaning,
if we are aware of them,
but they undermine the power
of the model.
So we're gonna dive into that
before we get there,
just wanted to say a huge thank you to
(01:05):
each and every one of you.
I was thinking about.
Y'all last week,
I was not able to record more than one podcast episode because I was so swamped with
CEUs for Corwell and all kinds of other things that were going on.
I was starting new groups and anyway,
it was just,
it was very,
very hectic,
and I was only able to record one podcast and
I just realized how much I missed it and I missed you.
(01:28):
And
so I just wanted to say thank you,
thank you for giving me something to look forward to each week.
Thank you for spending time with me each week.
I really deeply and genuinely appreciate y'all and not just for my sake because
it it does fill me up very much,
but
for the sake of your children and your families and your communities
(01:48):
and this generation at large,
I'm really grateful that each and every one of you take the time to
work on being CCPT.
And the time that you invest and the energy that you put forth,
and the commitment that you make
it
in the grand scheme means that you're changing the world,
one session at a time,
(02:08):
one kid at a time,
one family at a time.
And so I really am grateful and I wanted you all to know that.
OK,
so back to content.
So,
let's really quickly,
so last week we talked about
CCPT structure
and
it often looks very free
(02:29):
and very unstructured,
but we did a pretty
Significant look at how it is not.
And
I think often even with the structure that
we know exists even with the structure that
we can identify
many therapists unknowingly drift away from the
model and sometimes they're very small deviations which
(02:52):
I think in big picture seem relatively harmless
but they pull you out of
CCPT
and once you're out of CCPT
we lose
evidence,
we lose efficacy.
And we lose alignment
because our groundedness and our framework
(03:13):
is what influences everything that we do in sessions.
And so as soon as we are away from that,
we lose our footing.
And that's dangerous.
So
I think in its simplest definition,
at least my explanation of it,
I think a drift is when we step outside the boundaries
of the model
(03:34):
and it's usually rather subtle,
especially if you have been
CCPT for a while,
if you feel like you have a pretty solid theoretical foundation.
It's not going to be egregious deviations.
You're not going to sit down and provide a worksheet to a child,
and you're not going to
say good job to a child in a session.
(03:56):
But I think often the subtleties are there
and
it's sometimes not even in our conscious awareness.
So some of the things that I've seen pretty consistently in my reviews
of play sessions and just speaking with lots of CCPTs around the world,
I think there are usually some pretty consistent reasons
why the drifts take place in the first place,
(04:16):
and I'm just going to share a few.
This is not meant to be
a complete list by any means,
but I think often it comes from our own anxieties.
When we are unsure,
when we are concerned,
when we're nervous,
when we are worried
about
the process,
the child,
the outcomes,
the pace,
(04:36):
whatever it is,
I think our own anxieties can often be at the root
of why we make those subtle shifts.
I think another pretty consistent one is
our
bent toward helpfulness.
And what I mean by that is,
we,
we are helpers.
We are givers,
(04:57):
we are servers,
we are helpers.
And often in sessions,
we just have this really
almost insatiable desire to help.
And if we indulge that desire,
and look really in in the in the regular world,
outside of CCPT
I don't think anyone would say
(05:18):
you should curb your need to help people.
But CCPT
requires that the child helps themselves.
And so we do actually have to be aware of that and stop that.
We,
our desire to be helpful,
can't override the model.
Another reason I've observed is pressure,
(05:40):
external pressure,
usually for results.
In other words,
the parents are really pushing.
They want something fixed yesterday,
teachers,
principals,
pediatricians,
attorneys,
there's there's all of these stakeholders that make it really difficult
to honor the pace of the child
(06:00):
and
trust the process of CCPT.
So often we,
if,
if we shift,
if there are drifts away,
it can come from the pressure that we feel.
And then also I think it's really tricky
for therapists that were trained in other modalities.
If you did not
come from a CCPT background from the beginning.
(06:23):
So if you were
very directive,
if you were eclectic,
if you were a modality mix,
if you had a background in education,
if you had a background in other things related to children.
There is usually kind of that muscle memory that kicks in.
And we're we're not even
paying attention to the fact that we're saying
(06:44):
and doing things that are not aligned theoretically
because we have training in other approaches.
So again,
not meant to be a comprehensive list,
but
really common reasons why I've noticed drifts and here's why this matters.
Every single drift
undermines the child's ownership
of the process.
(07:06):
Think about that.
If our anxiety
influences it,
if our desire to be helpful influences it,
if our pressure for results influences it,
or if our training
and other modalities influences it.
What that means
is that
the child no longer has ownership of the process.
(07:27):
And we would never
accept that.
We would never embrace that.
We would never
acknowledge that that is the way that we want to handle sessions.
But it happens,
and often it's just because we're not even cognizant of it.
So,
what are some
consistent drifts?
(07:47):
Those are the consistent reasons why I've noticed drifts.
What are some of the common drifts?
Often our tone.
Or our words.
Indicate even very subtly that the child has pleased us.
Now,
before I continue,
let me make sure that you all understand what I'm not saying,
(08:10):
because I know sometimes my words get misinterpreted
and I don't want that to happen.
It's not that we can't find something funny and laugh.
It's not that we can't smile because of something that happens in session.
It's not that we can't
be affected by something that's go that goes on that goes back to congruence.
(08:30):
So that is not what I'm implying with that statement at all.
What I mean is that our tone or our words
imply that the child has made us happy or pleased us.
That is different.
Because if a child tells you a joke or does or says something funny and you laugh,
that's relational,
that's connective,
that's congruent.
But if a child.
(08:52):
Brings you food that he cooked you.
And you go,
thank you.
That was so nice.
Now all of a sudden
we have implied
that the fact that the child made us something,
gave us something or did something for us
made us happy.
The child has pleased us.
(09:14):
We've no longer managed to maintain neutrality.
So I think really this comes back to neutrality
and we did a neutrality series for this reason.
So if you're new to the podcast and you do not remember neutrality series,
you probably are too new to remember that.
Please go back,
start episode one and welcome,
by the way,
if you're new.
(09:34):
When we think about
the way that we subtly imply
that the child has pleased us,
here's the danger
because that replaces unconditional acceptance
with conditional approval.
When you do something that makes me happy,
you get acknowledged.
When you do something that pleases me,
(09:55):
my tone changes when you do something that I was hoping you would do,
I'm going to value you with my words.
Now all of a sudden
we're kind of
moving into that praise
concept.
We're we're hopefully,
Lord willing in the creek don't rise.
We're not saying good job to a kid in session.
(10:16):
We're not saying that picture's beautiful.
We're not saying
you're amazing.
Hopefully not.
If,
if you're new,
you'll,
you'll learn really quickly why you need to encourage instead.
Again,
go back and listen to episode in order from one.
But
we have to be mindful
that even saying something like,
thank you,
that was so nice.
(10:36):
All of a sudden now,
the child can interpret that as,
well,
I need to replicate that and do that again because I
really made him or her feel good.
We've completely lost the intention
and neutrality is gone at that point.
So that's a subtle drift.
Another
subtle drift.
We use I wonder statements in lieu of questions.
(10:59):
So the question isn't necessary.
The question isn't needed.
It's not clinically relevant information that we're trying to gather.
And so we know if you know enough to ask a question,
you don't have to make a statement.
So we've learned not to ask questions.
So we will instead use an I wonder statement.
See that's our workaround.
Oh,
I didn't ask the child a question.
(11:20):
But you say,
I wonder how you feel about that.
I wonder what you think about that.
I wonder what happened at school today.
I wonder what you're gonna make with those Legos.
I wonder why you're building that tower.
Now all of a sudden.
It's moving the child into their head.
That's cognitive process that's required.
(11:41):
It pulls them out
of their experience.
It pulls them out of their feelings.
And now all of a sudden,
they're up in their head trying to answer your question,
even though technically,
grammatically it was a statement.
I wonder statements are reserved for clinically necessary information,
so
child says.
(12:03):
We're going to have to build a bomb shelter.
Go
I wonder what I do first.
Notice I whispered my wonder.
I'm notorious for that.
You don't have to do that.
I wonder what we do first.
So,
that would be clinically necessary information
and that would be an appropriate opportunity
(12:25):
to wonder because if you're supposed to be helping build a bomb shelter,
you don't know what that means to the child until you're given a directive or a cue.
But a subtle drift is we will
work information gathering statements into our sessions
basically as questions.
And that
undermines the process as well.
(12:46):
Another scenario,
we interpret things or we assume things.
So,
We might say,
oh,
you're building a wall to protect yourself.
Well,
unless the child has said or indicated that
we don't know that.
(13:07):
Child starts
hitting and punching and kicking Bobo,
and we say,
oh,
you're really angry.
Well,
unless that's been indicated,
we don't know that.
We should not assume that.
We need to be very careful about presumption in the playroom,
and remember,
we do not interpret the play.
The goal is never to interpret the play.
(13:30):
Because interpretation removes the child's freedom.
To assign their own meaning.
And sometimes,
let's be really blunt,
sometimes
the child doesn't know the meaning,
we don't know the meaning,
and it doesn't matter.
A lot of play is subconscious.
The child may not have any sense of meaning of what they're doing.
(13:51):
They don't need to know.
We don't need to know.
We don't want to
interpret what's going on.
We clearly want to track and reflect
if it's provided to us.
But we should not be presuming,
assuming,
or interpreting.
Another subtle drift is
trying to redirect.
(14:12):
So child has been.
Kicking Bobo into the wall
for 26 minutes,
and every time the child kicks Bobo into the wall.
It resonates down the whole hallway.
You feel and hear and experience
the walls shaking
(14:32):
because of how hard that that door is getting hit with Bobo.
And then you're going,
oh my gosh,
all my colleagues and the people in the lobby,
and this kid's parents,
and everyone's gonna be so mad and the clinical director is gonna come and talk to me
and say that it was so disruptive for all the other sessions that were going on.
This is what happens.
We get in our heads.
That's also a subtle drift,
(14:53):
by the way,
but that wasn't the point of this.
So we have to avoid that subtle drift too.
We get in our own heads.
But
once that happens,
we think of clever,
try to be adherent ways
to
maybe
get the child to not do that anymore.
So instead of setting a limit,
which would be fully adherent.
(15:14):
We might say something like.
Oh,
You haven't played it in the sand in a while.
Or
Did you,
oh,
we wouldn't ask a question though,
would we?
So I wonder if you saw the dollhouse.
And now all of a sudden we're trying to
shift or redirect or suggest
(15:37):
because we're uncomfortable with something,
or we're thinking that sometimes it's not even about our discomfort,
sometimes we are trying to lead the child to work through something.
I wonder if you saw the family people over there.
Because they have all kinds of family dysfunction.
Now guess what happened?
You have the lead.
(15:58):
In the session.
And what that communicates to the child is,
I know what you need
more than you.
Or I need,
I know what you need better than you.
And
that robs the child of their process.
Another reason,
trying to hurry things up.
(16:21):
And I don't know if you all are aware of this,
but Landreth refers to certain kids as molasses in his book.
And
they're slow.
And
they're smooth
and
they're easy.
And
they just kind of hang out and
don't have really a sense of urgency for anything.
(16:43):
And then others are described like popcorn,
which gives you
a very different picture in your head.
But for your molasses,
children,
Or as I call them,
your marinators.
We often want to hurry things along.
We push
towards
progress.
(17:03):
We
try to provide insights.
We try to
think that maybe they can terminate
cause that'll make mom and dad really happy.
We're trying to meet adult goals rather than respecting the child's natural pace.
We can't rush the process.
That's one of Axline's principles.
That's one of Landreth's tenants.
(17:24):
We can't rush the process,
but we do it in very subtle ways.
And then finally,
sometimes we are inconsistent.
So this can be with
inconsistency in our speech,
inconsistency in our mannerisms,
inconsistency in the execution of skills,
inconsistency about
(17:44):
the weekly process.
We have to be very consistent.
That's one of the foundational concepts
is that
kids can have predictability,
constancy,
stability.
Why?
Because they don't get that anywhere else.
So,
often,
(18:05):
especially maybe even around limit setting,
for example,
will be inconsistent.
So sometimes we will
set limits
in a very punitive way.
Or sometimes we will not set a limit,
we'll let behavior go
that actually warrants a limit
for fear of maybe damaging rapport
(18:25):
or not being permissive enough.
Sometimes we
will
not use the skills
appropriately.
So
we'll
do something without enough empathy,
or we won't validate feeling,
or we'll jump the gun and set a limit too early before it's needed.
(18:46):
All of this is inconsistent.
And again,
subtle drifts,
but undermines the process.
So why are we talking about this?
Obviously,
I mean,
we're in the CCPT purism and we're trying to make sure
that we not only understand the model in its purest form,
but also its application
in its purest form.
(19:06):
CCPT works because of its purity.
That that really is at the heart of why it's effective is because of its purity.
And every single drift that takes place in the playroom.
It adds adult control
back into the session.
Which
flies in the face of the foundation of CCPT.
(19:29):
It contradicts everything about the model,
the second that the adult is in control.
And unfortunately,
The way that that is received by the child
is.
I can't lead.
Or at the very least,
I can't fully lead.
Maybe I,
I can lead a little bit.
(19:50):
But I can't fully lead.
I'm not fully in charge.
Sometimes the child might interpret that as
my process
isn't trusted.
No one's trusting me
to do this my way,
my time.
Another possibility
(20:11):
This is about pleasing the adult in the room,
or the adult
in the waiting room,
or the adult at school,
or the adult in the court,
or the adult somewhere else in my life.
This is about pleasing the adult.
And
we would bristle at those notions,
hearing them.
(20:32):
But that's what happens when drifts take place in session.
And CCPT works because of its purity.
So the minute we lose the purity,
we lose its efficacy.
So how do we stay anchored in the model?
First of all,
self-awareness,
and I'm not saying that as a platitude because I know we say that all the time,
(20:53):
self-awareness is the first step to change.
Yes,
that's true,
but in this case,
it's extremely relevant.
You have to be aware of where you might be drifting.
Like I mentioned before,
most of the time we're not even aware that we're doing it.
So we have to be more cognizant of those subtle drifts,
number one.
And
often I think it starts with asking ourselves questions.
(21:16):
Am I anxious about?
Making progress.
Am I trying to make the session
feel more productive?
Or do I feel better
when I can say that I quote did something?
Or
am I responding from earlier training?
(21:37):
It is my earlier training or my,
my background seeping in here?
If you
ask yourselves questions,
you can get to the heart of what's causing the drifts.
And then
with that self-awareness,
you can make change.
So,
let's just
(21:57):
recalibrate,
right?
Let's go back to
our basic principles.
We have unconditional acceptance,
rooted in unconditional positive regard from Rogers.
So we unconditionally love and accept the child.
We provide empathy.
In every scenario with the child.
(22:19):
We can always validate,
we can always understand,
we can always reflect what's going on.
We have empathy
We are congruent
And we trust the process.
We believe that kids will self-actualize.
But all of that
(22:39):
goes back to.
The pureness of the model.
It all happens in the purity.
So we have to make sure that we're not allowing drifting
to take place.
So if you find that as you're listening to this,
you're going,
oh boy,
I think I drift way more than I was aware of,
or I think that I didn't even pay attention to the fact that I was drifting.
(23:01):
This is about awareness.
You don't know what you don't know.
So the whole point of you listening to podcasts
is to
increase your skills and make sure that you're more adherent.
Every single therapist drifts at times,
every single one,
no matter how long you've been doing it,
no matter how skilled you are,
no matter how highly trained.
(23:23):
Every single therapist drifts at times.
For a variety of reasons and a variety of ways.
There is not one CCPT on this planet that is fully
adherent at every single moment of their work with kids.
So it's not about shame or blame or guilt or anything,
it's notice
the drift.
(23:44):
And recalibrate,
re-center yourself.
So,
you can be very intentional
about making sure
that you stay as adherent as possible,
but you have to be aware
of the lack of adherence before you can work on that.
So I hope that that's encouraging to you.
I hope that it
(24:04):
Lights a little bit of a fire so that you can
assess this and and challenge yourself if you need to.
They're,
they're small deviations with big impact that that's the big takeaway.
I mean,
a lot of what we talked about,
they're minor subtle deviations,
but they do have big impact and so just even recognizing them
(24:24):
helps you stay committed to CCPT at its core,
and that's what we long for.
So,
next time,
we're going to talk about why
being non-directive is effective.
And the clinical reasoning behind trusting the child's
lead in the non-directive nature of CCPT.
So,
there's your teaser.
(24:45):
I look forward to being with y'all then.
Love you.
We'll talk again soon.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
Brenna Hicks.
For more episodes and resources,
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.
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