April 8, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of the CCPT Purism series, I unpack one of the most misunderstood truths about Child-Centered Play Therapy: that while it’s non-directive, it is also deeply structured and intentional. I walk through the intentional ways structure shows up in CCPT—not as control over the child, but as a consistent framework that allows the child to feel safe enough to lead. From the playroom setup to our consistent language, tone, and limit-setting process, structure is what allows healing to happen.
I also explore the internal framework that defines how we show up as therapists. Our regulation, neutrality, presence, and boundaries become a holding structure for the child’s work. We don’t just create structure—we become the structure. This episode is a challenge to re-examine how fully you’ve internalized the model and whether your structure is strong enough to give children the freedom they need.
PlayTherapyNow.com is my HUB for everything I do! playtherapynow.com. Sign up for my email newsletter, stay ahead with the latest CCPT CEU courses, personalized coaching opportunities and other opportunities you need to thrive in your CCPT practice. If you click one link in these show notes, this is the one to click!
If you would like to ask me questions directly, check out www.ccptcollective.com, where I host two weekly Zoom calls filled with advanced CCPT case studies and session reviews, as well as member Q&A. You can take advantage of the two-week free trial to see if the CCPT Collective is right for you.
Ask Me Questions: Call (813) 812-5525, or email: brenna@thekidcounselor.com
Brenna's CCPT Hub: https://www.playtherapynow.com
CCPT Collective (online community exclusively for CCPTs): https://www.ccptcollective.com
Podcast HQ: https://www.playtherapypodcast.com
APT Approved Play Therapy CE courses: https://childcenteredtraining.com
Twitter: @thekidcounselor https://twitter.com/thekidcounselor
Facebook: https://facebook.com/playtherapypodcast
Common References:
Cochran, N., Nordling, W., & Cochran, J. (2010). Child-Centered Play Therapy (1st ed.). Wiley.
VanFleet, R., Sywulak, A. E., & Sniscak, C. C. (2010). Child-centered play therapy. Guilford Press.
Landreth, G.L. (2023). Play Therapy: The Art of the Relationship (4th ed.). Routledge.
Bratton, S. C., Landreth, G. L., Kellam, T., & Blackard, S. R. (2006). Child parent relationship therapy (CPRT) treatment manual: A 10-session filial therapy model for training parents. Routledge/Taylor & Francis Group.
Benedict, Helen. Themes in Play Therapy. Used with permission to Heartland Play Therapy Institute.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
a master class in child-centered play therapy
and practical support and application for your
work with children and their families.
In today's episode,
we are continuing in our CCPT Purism series,
(00:23):
and we are going to
talk about how even though it is non-directive,
It is still very structured.
So we are going to dive into that.
That's one of the most misunderstood truths,
I think about CCPT,
and I want to make sure that
it's clarified so that we're all on the same page about how it can be both,
(00:46):
even though they seem to not coexist.
But before we dive into that,
I don't often bring up the coaching.
I
do this podcast because it gives access to CCPT
content to people all over the world for free.
And so I don't want this to ever become something where
I have ads or sponsors or any of those things.
(01:07):
I just want the information to be
accessible.
I do have a couple spots in the coaching program that's starting
in April.
So if you have been thinking about coaching with me,
if you've been thinking about making sure that
you are fully grounded and trained in CCPT.
Play Therapy Professional program would be the program for you.
(01:28):
So go to playtherapypro.com,
schedule a discovery call with me.
I'll talk you through the program and we have a cohort starting next week,
so you need to hurry,
but if you're interested,
please sign up.
For that.
And
my coaching participants
in the Six-Figure program and the Play Therapy Professional program,
they are top tier CCPTs.
(01:50):
They're the highest trained,
most highly confident,
most highly knowledgeable CCPTs out there,
and I'm really,
really proud to say that we have a lot of graduates of the coaching programs
that
know their stuff.
So if you're interested,
please go to playtherapypro.com and schedule a discovery call with me.
OK,
(02:11):
so let's dive into
the structure behind the freedom,
I suppose.
Because
last week we talked about
how Landreth gave CCPT
its current name
and helped us define what it is and what it isn't.
But I want in this episode to
(02:31):
unpack
what I perceive to be a paradox because I think CCPT
is
Perceived incorrectly and or at the very least people
misunderstand it
because CCPT looks unstructured.
From the outside looking in and even sometimes when we describe it,
it can be perceived.
(02:52):
In a very unstructured way,
but it is very intentional.
It's highly intentional,
actually.
The fact that it's non-directive does not mean that anything goes
at all.
The therapist is actually creating a very specific kind of structure.
In the environment,
(03:13):
so meaning the playroom.
And
they're in their mindset,
the way that they are
practicing.
In the way that they're setting limits when necessary
and most importantly in their way of being,
there's a very specific kind of structure
that is created,
(03:34):
so it is not unstructured at all
and it is not a free for all.
So I want to definitely
dive into this a little bit
to clear up any
ambiguity or confusion.
I think as a general rule,
because it looks.
So free and unstructured
from the outside looking in.
(03:56):
It is very easily misperceived and misunderstood,
and I talk about this a lot.
We're already fighting an uphill battle
of the fact that what we do is called play therapy.
We already have people that dismiss it and trivialize it
just because it's called play,
because it can't be important
or structured
or
necessary or anything if all quote,
(04:18):
all we're doing is playing,
end quote.
And
we know that's not true,
but that's the perception.
If all you're doing is playing,
well,
if my kid will naturally work through things through their play,
what do they need you for?
I mean,
these are the questions that we get all the time.
Why?
Because it's called play therapy.
And that doesn't seem to be important to anybody.
So
(04:39):
when we have that kind of misperception,
it's very important
that we realize
it is actually a very disciplined
approach it's a very intentional approach
and it's a very structured approach
and I think the better we understand
how it can be
highly intentional and structured
but also very
(05:01):
autonomous and freedom honoring.
And very non-directive,
I think we will be able to
better articulate to parents and caregivers and stakeholders
and really we can just advocate for the model more effectively.
So the common myths,
let's start there because then we can
kind of refute them with the structure,
(05:22):
I think.
So if we think about the common myths,
I think the first would be that
the very nature of the word non-directive
implies unstructured.
And
we're going to look at the structure,
so that's absolutely not
an accurate perception,
but it is the reality of many people.
Well,
if you're a non-directive,
(05:43):
that means that it's unstructured.
In other words,
if you don't tell a child what to do,
it's just a free for all.
Couldn't be further from the truth.
We know that,
but we need to be able to explain
what the difference is.
I think another myth is
you just let the child do whatever they want.
And parents have said that,
teachers have said that,
directive therapists have said that.
(06:04):
So basically,
the kid just gets to come in and do whatever.
No.
I mean,
yes,
but no.
So
you,
we don't just let the child do whatever they want,
but
the child has a lot of freedom and autonomy,
that's for sure.
And then another myth is because there's quote no plan,
which
CCPT very much has a plan,
(06:25):
but it's not directive by any means.
So there's no plan,
so therefore,
it can't be clinical in nature.
Nothing clinical
or therapeutic is happening
if there's no plan.
Wow,
that is 100% not true,
but also a myth that people tend to adopt.
Here's
how we refute those three common myths,
(06:47):
I think.
CCPT
is extremely.
And tightly structured
on the therapist side.
From our end
There's so much structure.
So
that the child has complete freedom
(07:07):
within that structure.
Let me say that again.
CCPT
is
very highly structured from the therapist side.
So that the child has complete freedom
within that structure.
Think about that.
We create a structure.
(07:31):
That
the child experiences in such a way
that they have complete freedom.
The structure doesn't apply to the child,
it applies for the child.
And when we create that structure,
the structure is what allows the child complete freedom and autonomy.
(07:54):
Gosh,
there's so much beauty in that.
We could dwell on that for like 20 minutes,
but let's move on.
OK.
So
when we think about how structured
the
therapist is
and how the therapist uses the structure.
We need to understand what that structure actually looks like
so that we can refute some of the misconceptions.
(08:16):
So first,
The playroom
is highly structured.
First and foremost,
we
have a toys,
we have a set of toys that are selected,
not collected.
We carefully choose toys
that represent categories.
So we have our real life toys,
(08:38):
we have our acting on aggressive toys,
we have our creative artistic expression toys.
We have fantasy toys.
Why?
Because they serve a very specific purpose.
There's nothing random in a playroom.
If you have something random in your playroom.
Please get rid of it.
Your toys are specifically selected.
(08:58):
They are chosen
with intention.
Every single item is there for a reason.
There's no screens
Meaning
technology driven toys.
There's no prescribed toys that
sing songs,
tell a child to count to 3,
say rhymes.
(09:18):
They nothing should have technological or electronic components
unless that serves a very specific purpose.
For example,
my rescue vehicles have lights and sirens,
which means they require batteries.
But that makes sense because if a child needs to play out an emergency
or a police car or an ambulance or a fire truck.
(09:41):
It would have lights and sirens,
so that is one of the few things in my playroom that has batteries.
My kitchen
set,
if you push a button,
the burners glow red.
That serves a very specific purpose because it
looks like you're actually cooking on a stove.
These are the types of things that you can have with
(10:02):
technology and electronics in them,
but as a general rule,
nothing in your playroom needs batteries.
You don't need Moana guitars that sing a Moana song.
You don't need a Bob the Builder thing that says,
I don't even know what Bob the Builder says.
Can we fix it?
Yes,
we can.
Is that Bob the Builder?
I don't know.
(10:22):
My son did not like Bob the Builder.
We,
we never watched it.
We were not a Bob the Builder family.
I apologize.
Terrible reference when you can't even quote it.
OK,
you don't want stuff that's prescriptive.
You don't want something that sings rhymes.
You don't want something that sings songs,
period.
You don't want something that
has anything that's going to distract the child from the work that they're doing.
(10:44):
Your toys need to be simple
and purposeful.
Think about Fisher Price,
OG Fisher Price toys.
That's
the kind of toys that you need in a playroom.
Melissa and Doug,
one of my favorite,
and I'm not gonna get any kind of kickback if you go buy Melissa and Dove stuff,
by the way.
(11:04):
People are always like,
are you an affiliate for all the things that you referenced?
No,
I don't make a dime on that.
I'm just,
I'm sharing knowledge and wisdom.
Melissa and Doug,
they
are my favorite toy manufacturer for the playroom.
Why?
Because it's all kinds of basic sturdy,
handcrafted with wood kind of toys.
(11:24):
You want very intentional toys.
Nothing is in there randomly.
And the way that you set up your playroom
allows autonomy and freedom for the child,
but makes sure that there's
safety and emotional accessibility.
That's why you lay out your toys in a specific way,
(11:45):
acting out aggressive toys,
then real life toys,
then creative artistic expression toys.
Why?
Because it's intentionally set up.
Landreth has provided
the layout for a CCPT playroom.
And look,
I know many of y'all are in like janitor's closets.
I know
(12:05):
some of y'all are in afterthoughts of a playroom.
You have to take a cafeteria or a library and
put up a barrier and that becomes your play space.
I get it.
But you do have control as a therapist
over structuring the environment.
So that it allows the child to have the freedom that they need.
(12:28):
So,
our playroom is very structured intentionally.
Secondly,
we have a consistent
play session.
Every single time.
We say the same things,
we do the same things.
We have
a set schedule
every Thursday at 2.
That's your spot.
Every Thursday at 2,
(12:48):
I'm going to see you.
We have 50 minutes together every single time you come to play.
Why?
Because it's predictable.
You yourself are consistent.
You're going to say the same things every single time.
You're going to give the same choices every single time.
You're going to say we have 5 minutes left today.
We have 2 minutes left.
(13:09):
Our time is up.
Do you choose to wash your hands in the playroom or
do you choose to wash your hands in the bathroom?
You are going to be a broken record,
predictable and consistent.
The room is the same every time,
not every
minutia,
OK.
When,
when there's 8 Legos in the Lincoln logs bin,
yes,
that will be different.
But in general,
the,
(13:29):
the toys are exactly in the same spot.
The categories of toys are in the same spot.
The items in the playroom are in the same spot for the most part.
Why?
Because it's consistent.
And there are consistent limits if the limits are needed or warranted.
And here's why we do this.
We've talked about it before,
but sometimes we need
(13:51):
reminders.
Reminders are helpful.
Predictability creates the emotional security that kids need.
When we are predictable and consistent
in sessions,
that's what allows children the freedom to work through their stuff.
This is why we do it.
There's purpose in that even.
Next,
(14:11):
ourselves,
our own structure.
I don't really think that we talk about this hardly ever at all.
I guess shame on me.
I don't know.
I don't think we've talked about this hardly at all,
maybe once.
This is why you need to listen to every episode y'all,
cause you never know.
You never know what pearls are gonna be in a,
in any given episode.
OK.
(14:32):
Our own
consistency.
As
a CCPT,
what does that look like?
We have strict boundaries.
Strict
No wiggle room,
no budging.
Lines are drawn in the sand,
strict boundaries.
If we are fully adherent to the model,
(14:54):
we don't deviate.
Our structure
is infallible.
The strict boundaries give us guidelines
so that our internal structure
influences the freedom for the child.
So what are some of those boundaries?
This is not an exhaustive list at all.
I'm just throwing some out there.
No interpretation.
(15:15):
We don't,
we don't need to,
nor do we spend time interpreting what's going on.
It does not change anything that we do
in a session if we interpret.
We do not praise
no value laden words ever.
I know that's so hard,
but
(15:35):
that's,
that's the structure of
our therapeutic interaction.
We don't ask questions.
Why?
Because if we know enough to ask a question,
we know enough to make a statement.
We don't suggest
Oh,
I wonder if you've seen the
(15:55):
kitchen set,
because you're so sick of them hitting the bobo with the
Billy stick.
We don't suggest why?
Because we trust the child.
We don't
lead or steer the session.
There's never an agenda.
We don't have expectations.
(16:18):
Why?
Because we trust the process.
And literally,
the list could go on and on and on.
I just want you to understand,
we have very strict boundaries.
There's so much structure in the way that we interact.
And what we can and cannot do.
We talked about that last time.
(16:39):
Landreth gave us.
So that we understand what we can and cannot do
when we are CCPT.
We,
and where does this all come from?
This is not from
a checklist that we bring into the session.
This is not from
a mental running category of,
OK,
here's what we do and don't do.
It's an internal framework.
(17:01):
It is
an understanding
of who we are
in that room.
We are CCPT.
Therefore,
we reflectively respond.
Therefore,
we attend and attune fully to the child.
Therefore,
our presence
is important.
(17:23):
We trust the child.
We trust the process.
These are
elements of an internal framework.
We get it because we understand the model.
We execute because we understand the model.
And we are CCPT because we understand the model.
(17:46):
This internal structure
allows the child to have freedom.
OK,
also,
when necessary.
We set limits.
That's also part of the structure.
And I know this doesn't seem to add up to most people because
child-centered means the child's in charge,
but then there's structured limits.
(18:07):
Well,
Limit setting has a formula,
first of all,
so yes,
it is very structured.
We don't just say,
oh,
you can't do that,
sorry.
You would never hear a CCPT say that.
There's a framework,
there's structure.
It's 3 steps.
If you have no idea what I'm talking about,
(18:28):
please go back and listen to episode one.
For those of you that have been around the block with me a long time,
3 steps.
We understand there's a very formulaic process
to limit setting,
and we set them when they're needed with that formula.
Why?
Because it provides structure.
By the way,
if you're new,
welcome,
so happy to have you.
This is a really fun group to hang out with each week,
(18:52):
multiple times a week.
Please go back and listen to every episode in order though,
so that you really understand what
all of this is all about.
Even the timing of limit setting is important.
Because
you have to pace out how you handle.
A concern for safety or a concern for property.
(19:14):
Limits are never emotional.
Limits are never controlling.
They're just consistent.
They're
clear.
They're intentional
They're therapeutically valuable.
They're never meant to control a child.
They're never meant to govern what's going on.
(19:39):
They're just
clear and consistent and therapeutically valuable.
Why,
so that the child knows what to expect.
And so that the child is able to trust boundaries.
And when there is safety,
we know this,
when there is safety in the relationship,
that means there's security in the relationship.
(20:01):
That means they can do the work that they need to do.
And then finally,
one last element of structure that I wanna quickly talk about.
We provide the containment.
For the child regarding structure.
And here's what I mean by that.
(20:23):
Our own emotional regulation.
Our own neutrality.
Our own tone.
Our own body language.
Our own
non-reaction.
That provides the stable container.
(20:43):
For the child
Yeah,
please,
please tell me y'all get this.
Because this is stuff that I don't talk about often and as I,
as I hear it coming out of my mouth,
I'm like,
I don't know if I've talked about this enough that that they're gonna get this.
Please tell me that you get this.
And if you don't get it,
listen to this episode until you get it,
(21:03):
please.
If we miss this,
the CCPT Purism series is just
how did we end up with the model that we have today?
I don't want it to end there.
We can talk about history and we can see how it evolved and developed,
but that only gets us so far.
If we don't deeply understand
what this is all about and why,
why
(21:23):
did the pioneers
create this model?
Why was this so important to them?
Why did it evolve in the way that it did?
Why is it such a big deal to talk about this?
Because of this right here.
Our regulation,
our neutrality.
Our tone of voice,
our non-reaction,
(21:44):
all of these things,
it forms a stable container
for a child.
We're talking about structure.
Please get this.
The stable container.
We become the structure.
Yes,
we create structure.
But there's also an element of us becoming the structure.
(22:07):
And guess what?
Structures hold things.
Structures support things.
Structures contain things.
Structures hold things.
We hold
the child's chaos.
We hold the child's emotions.
We hold the child's dysregulation.
(22:30):
We hold the child's whatever it is
that the child needs someone to hold.
Why?
Because we can safely do it for them.
If we
are a structure for them.
And we contain and hold
for them.
(22:50):
They're able to do what they need to do.
So we become structure too.
The,
the whole notion of that
flies in the face.
Of directive approaches.
There's no holding in directive approaches.
(23:11):
There's agenda
CCPT flies in the face of it,
and thank God for that.
Truly,
I thank God for it.
Because
these types of structures.
The playroom,
the
relationship,
our own internal structure,
(23:31):
the structure of limit setting.
The fact that we become a structure,
all of it.
It allows the child to do the work that they need to do.
They get the freedom because we create the structure.
There's such
deep,
rich beauty in that.
So why does the structure matter in the first place?
(23:52):
I,
I think I'd be remiss if I don't kind of unpack that a little bit.
We already know this.
Freedom doesn't feel safe
if there's no
structure.
No one wants freedom
without boundaries.
So,
of course,
we have to make sure that the child feels safe in order to do the work.
(24:14):
We can't do that without structure.
And true freedom.
Look,
we wanna give kids as much freedom as possible.
True freedom
only happens within boundaries.
That's why when we talk about limits,
we talk about the safety and the security and the relationship.
Why?
Because that's how kids experience freedom within boundaries.
(24:38):
And
Kids can explore deeply.
They can really
dive into their work.
When they trust that there is an invisible safety net
that the therapist has built.
Let's go back to the structure.
Those elements of structure,
(24:58):
that's the invisible safety net,
and the child senses it.
The child gets it.
Hey,
I can,
I can have the
time and the tools and the opportunity to do what I need to do
because
I know that Ms.
Brenna has created safety.
And I know that if anything happens,
there's a net
(25:18):
that's been built for me.
There's
A lot
more that I could say,
but I think at the very least.
We have to really grasp the notion.
Of how structure plays into this
because
it's non-directive.
(25:41):
And the misperception is that it's very unstructured,
it's not at all.
Not not even one bit.
However,
here's,
here's the rub y'all.
We have to
stay CCPT for this to work.
It takes a lot of intention.
(26:02):
Takes a lot of self-control.
To stay child-centered.
And lots and lots of therapists
default to
directive techniques
or agenda.
Or interventions.
Not because
they don't
(26:22):
value CCPT.
It's because they haven't internalized the structure of CCPT.
I'm gonna say that again because that's important.
A lot of therapists
deviate from the model.
And default to other types of
techniques or agenda or whatever.
(26:44):
Not because they don't believe
in CCPT.
But because they haven't internalized the structure
of CCPT.
There's so much structure in this model.
It has to be internalized.
It has to resonate.
And you have to see the purpose and the value of the structure.
(27:08):
And this is probably.
What,
what's gonna make all this come together,
I hope.
The more structured you are.
The more free
the child is.
The more structure you
have and create
and are intentional about.
(27:31):
The more free the child is.
And there's the paradox.
Structure is intentional
and it's built.
So that the child has freedom.
So what does,
what does this mean?
What's your,
what's your takeaway?
I try to have a little food for thought,
nugget of wisdom,
(27:51):
something.
I think I told you one of my,
one of my parents said they're clinical pearls.
I was like,
OK,
fine,
we'll call them clinical pearls.
I don't care what we call them,
but I,
I want y'all to have something to walk away with to challenge yourself this week.
Are you operating
within the structure?
Of CCPT.
Or are you kind of hodgepodge,
(28:13):
winging it with pieces of the model
and then pieces of something else from somewhere else,
from someone else,
whatever.
You need to think through
what's,
what's your playroom like.
Is it structured
Is it intentional?
Is it purposeful?
(28:34):
To the degree that it can be,
I get it.
I know some of y'all do not have ideal playroom scenarios.
To the degree it can be.
Is your playroom structured?
Are you structured
as
A CCPT therapist.
Do you hold the boundaries of the model?
(28:54):
Are you
becoming a structure yourself to contain?
Are you
modeling
the structure when you set limits?
And do you embody?
The internal structure
so that emotional freedom is possible.
(29:16):
Are you creating
the kind of structure that kids need
so that they
have the freedom?
To do their work.
CCPT is never a free for all,
ever.
It should never be perceived as such,
and we need to refute the notion
every single time
(29:37):
the idea of that comes up.
Oh,
so they just do whatever they want.
Oh,
so they just play.
Oh,
so you don't do anything clinical.
Oh,
so they just get to be in charge and and run everything.
No.
I was gonna say cued,
but I said I said 4 things.
No to the 4th.
It's freedom within structure always
(29:59):
freedom within structure.
So,
think through
what structure
is worked into your practice this week.
And if you identify areas
that need to be structured differently,
to be more adherent.
I challenge you to work on it because it's
only through that structure that children have the freedom.
(30:21):
So,
next week,
we're going to look at
where therapists will sometimes drift away from the model.
And how even subtle shifts
can pull us out of CCPT and
into something else.
And then
we're deviating and then there's no adherence and then it's no longer CCPT at all.
(30:42):
So,
I love y'all.
I hope that challenges you.
I hope it encourages you
keep
doing this every single day.
You know,
on the Collective call last week,
I talked about
My husband came home and referenced something that he had heard and
he said,
you know,
the notion was
everyone's marching in the other direction.
(31:04):
But
one person has a spear and is throwing it as far as they can.
And they're marching opposite of everyone else
toward the spear.
And then when they get to the spear,
they pick it up and they chuck it as far as they can again.
Then they march toward it again
and everyone else is going in the other direction
and then they finally get to the spear,
then they pick it up and they chuck it
(31:24):
as far as they can and they march toward it again.
And he was like,
that's you and CCPT.
This is what
This is what this looks like
figuratively.
Or marching in the other direction of everybody else.
And it's a battle
And we throw the spear as far as we can.
(31:46):
And that becomes
our
guiding point.
You know,
when you're lost,
you're supposed to walk and you always stare at the same point of reference,
otherwise you don't go in a straight line.
That's like a survival
tool,
FYI.
If,
if you're ever lost somewhere,
you have to stare at one point on the horizon to help you know to walk straight.
(32:09):
Why?
Because
when you throw the spear,
you know where you're going and you know why you're going there.
And everyone else is going in the other direction,
and trust me,
it's easy.
It's easy to go with the flow.
But we choose not to.
If CCPT chooses you.
(32:30):
You,
you're usually going in the other direction of everybody else?
And I hope
that you want to pick up a spear and you want to throw it as far as you can,
and you're gonna keep marching toward it.
And then when you get there,
you're gonna throw it again.
Because
CCPT.
is a battle worth waging.
We know it
(32:52):
You wouldn't be listening to this podcast
and attending CEUs and coaching and joining the
Collective and doing all the things that you're doing if you didn't believe in this.
And
some things are worth fighting for.
And I think you inherently understand that this is worth fighting for.
And sometimes when you fight for something,
(33:14):
you have to lose a lot.
But it's worth it.
So I hope that this series is encouraging you,
number one,
but I hope above all that this podcast encourages you
to remain adherent,
remain faithful,
remain committed.
and fight the battles that need to be fought.
Because it's not about us,
(33:36):
it's about kids.
Kids need people that get it.
And CCPT always gets it.
So I hope that that encourages you.
Love y'all.
We'll talk again soon.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
Brenna Hicks.
For more episodes and resources,
(33:57):
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
a master class in child-centered play therapy
and practical support and application for your
work with children and their families.
In today's episode,
we are continuing in our CCPT Purism series,
(00:23):
and we are going to
talk about how even though it is non-directive,
It is still very structured.
So we are going to dive into that.
That's one of the most misunderstood truths,
I think about CCPT,
and I want to make sure that
it's clarified so that we're all on the same page about how it can be both,
(00:46):
even though they seem to not coexist.
But before we dive into that,
I don't often bring up the coaching.
I
do this podcast because it gives access to CCPT
content to people all over the world for free.
And so I don't want this to ever become something where
I have ads or sponsors or any of those things.
(01:07):
I just want the information to be
accessible.
I do have a couple spots in the coaching program that's starting
in April.
So if you have been thinking about coaching with me,
if you've been thinking about making sure that
you are fully grounded and trained in CCPT.
Play Therapy Professional program would be the program for you.
(01:28):
So go to playtherapypro.com,
schedule a discovery call with me.
I'll talk you through the program and we have a cohort starting next week,
so you need to hurry,
but if you're interested,
please sign up.
For that.
And
my coaching participants
in the Six-Figure program and the Play Therapy Professional program,
they are top tier CCPTs.
(01:50):
They're the highest trained,
most highly confident,
most highly knowledgeable CCPTs out there,
and I'm really,
really proud to say that we have a lot of graduates of the coaching programs
that
know their stuff.
So if you're interested,
please go to playtherapypro.com and schedule a discovery call with me.
OK,
(02:11):
so let's dive into
the structure behind the freedom,
I suppose.
Because
last week we talked about
how Landreth gave CCPT
its current name
and helped us define what it is and what it isn't.
But I want in this episode to
(02:31):
unpack
what I perceive to be a paradox because I think CCPT
is
Perceived incorrectly and or at the very least people
misunderstand it
because CCPT looks unstructured.
From the outside looking in and even sometimes when we describe it,
it can be perceived.
(02:52):
In a very unstructured way,
but it is very intentional.
It's highly intentional,
actually.
The fact that it's non-directive does not mean that anything goes
at all.
The therapist is actually creating a very specific kind of structure.
In the environment,
(03:13):
so meaning the playroom.
And
they're in their mindset,
the way that they are
practicing.
In the way that they're setting limits when necessary
and most importantly in their way of being,
there's a very specific kind of structure
that is created,
(03:34):
so it is not unstructured at all
and it is not a free for all.
So I want to definitely
dive into this a little bit
to clear up any
ambiguity or confusion.
I think as a general rule,
because it looks.
So free and unstructured
from the outside looking in.
(03:56):
It is very easily misperceived and misunderstood,
and I talk about this a lot.
We're already fighting an uphill battle
of the fact that what we do is called play therapy.
We already have people that dismiss it and trivialize it
just because it's called play,
because it can't be important
or structured
or
necessary or anything if all quote,
(04:18):
all we're doing is playing,
end quote.
And
we know that's not true,
but that's the perception.
If all you're doing is playing,
well,
if my kid will naturally work through things through their play,
what do they need you for?
I mean,
these are the questions that we get all the time.
Why?
Because it's called play therapy.
And that doesn't seem to be important to anybody.
So
(04:39):
when we have that kind of misperception,
it's very important
that we realize
it is actually a very disciplined
approach it's a very intentional approach
and it's a very structured approach
and I think the better we understand
how it can be
highly intentional and structured
but also very
(05:01):
autonomous and freedom honoring.
And very non-directive,
I think we will be able to
better articulate to parents and caregivers and stakeholders
and really we can just advocate for the model more effectively.
So the common myths,
let's start there because then we can
kind of refute them with the structure,
(05:22):
I think.
So if we think about the common myths,
I think the first would be that
the very nature of the word non-directive
implies unstructured.
And
we're going to look at the structure,
so that's absolutely not
an accurate perception,
but it is the reality of many people.
Well,
if you're a non-directive,
(05:43):
that means that it's unstructured.
In other words,
if you don't tell a child what to do,
it's just a free for all.
Couldn't be further from the truth.
We know that,
but we need to be able to explain
what the difference is.
I think another myth is
you just let the child do whatever they want.
And parents have said that,
teachers have said that,
directive therapists have said that.
(06:04):
So basically,
the kid just gets to come in and do whatever.
No.
I mean,
yes,
but no.
So
you,
we don't just let the child do whatever they want,
but
the child has a lot of freedom and autonomy,
that's for sure.
And then another myth is because there's quote no plan,
which
CCPT very much has a plan,
(06:25):
but it's not directive by any means.
So there's no plan,
so therefore,
it can't be clinical in nature.
Nothing clinical
or therapeutic is happening
if there's no plan.
Wow,
that is 100% not true,
but also a myth that people tend to adopt.
Here's
how we refute those three common myths,
(06:47):
I think.
CCPT
is extremely.
And tightly structured
on the therapist side.
From our end
There's so much structure.
So
that the child has complete freedom
(07:07):
within that structure.
Let me say that again.
CCPT
is
very highly structured from the therapist side.
So that the child has complete freedom
within that structure.
Think about that.
We create a structure.
(07:31):
That
the child experiences in such a way
that they have complete freedom.
The structure doesn't apply to the child,
it applies for the child.
And when we create that structure,
the structure is what allows the child complete freedom and autonomy.
(07:54):
Gosh,
there's so much beauty in that.
We could dwell on that for like 20 minutes,
but let's move on.
OK.
So
when we think about how structured
the
therapist is
and how the therapist uses the structure.
We need to understand what that structure actually looks like
so that we can refute some of the misconceptions.
(08:16):
So first,
The playroom
is highly structured.
First and foremost,
we
have a toys,
we have a set of toys that are selected,
not collected.
We carefully choose toys
that represent categories.
So we have our real life toys,
(08:38):
we have our acting on aggressive toys,
we have our creative artistic expression toys.
We have fantasy toys.
Why?
Because they serve a very specific purpose.
There's nothing random in a playroom.
If you have something random in your playroom.
Please get rid of it.
Your toys are specifically selected.
(08:58):
They are chosen
with intention.
Every single item is there for a reason.
There's no screens
Meaning
technology driven toys.
There's no prescribed toys that
sing songs,
tell a child to count to 3,
say rhymes.
(09:18):
They nothing should have technological or electronic components
unless that serves a very specific purpose.
For example,
my rescue vehicles have lights and sirens,
which means they require batteries.
But that makes sense because if a child needs to play out an emergency
or a police car or an ambulance or a fire truck.
(09:41):
It would have lights and sirens,
so that is one of the few things in my playroom that has batteries.
My kitchen
set,
if you push a button,
the burners glow red.
That serves a very specific purpose because it
looks like you're actually cooking on a stove.
These are the types of things that you can have with
(10:02):
technology and electronics in them,
but as a general rule,
nothing in your playroom needs batteries.
You don't need Moana guitars that sing a Moana song.
You don't need a Bob the Builder thing that says,
I don't even know what Bob the Builder says.
Can we fix it?
Yes,
we can.
Is that Bob the Builder?
I don't know.
(10:22):
My son did not like Bob the Builder.
We,
we never watched it.
We were not a Bob the Builder family.
I apologize.
Terrible reference when you can't even quote it.
OK,
you don't want stuff that's prescriptive.
You don't want something that sings rhymes.
You don't want something that sings songs,
period.
You don't want something that
has anything that's going to distract the child from the work that they're doing.
(10:44):
Your toys need to be simple
and purposeful.
Think about Fisher Price,
OG Fisher Price toys.
That's
the kind of toys that you need in a playroom.
Melissa and Doug,
one of my favorite,
and I'm not gonna get any kind of kickback if you go buy Melissa and Dove stuff,
by the way.
(11:04):
People are always like,
are you an affiliate for all the things that you referenced?
No,
I don't make a dime on that.
I'm just,
I'm sharing knowledge and wisdom.
Melissa and Doug,
they
are my favorite toy manufacturer for the playroom.
Why?
Because it's all kinds of basic sturdy,
handcrafted with wood kind of toys.
(11:24):
You want very intentional toys.
Nothing is in there randomly.
And the way that you set up your playroom
allows autonomy and freedom for the child,
but makes sure that there's
safety and emotional accessibility.
That's why you lay out your toys in a specific way,
(11:45):
acting out aggressive toys,
then real life toys,
then creative artistic expression toys.
Why?
Because it's intentionally set up.
Landreth has provided
the layout for a CCPT playroom.
And look,
I know many of y'all are in like janitor's closets.
I know
(12:05):
some of y'all are in afterthoughts of a playroom.
You have to take a cafeteria or a library and
put up a barrier and that becomes your play space.
I get it.
But you do have control as a therapist
over structuring the environment.
So that it allows the child to have the freedom that they need.
(12:28):
So,
our playroom is very structured intentionally.
Secondly,
we have a consistent
play session.
Every single time.
We say the same things,
we do the same things.
We have
a set schedule
every Thursday at 2.
That's your spot.
Every Thursday at 2,
(12:48):
I'm going to see you.
We have 50 minutes together every single time you come to play.
Why?
Because it's predictable.
You yourself are consistent.
You're going to say the same things every single time.
You're going to give the same choices every single time.
You're going to say we have 5 minutes left today.
We have 2 minutes left.
(13:09):
Our time is up.
Do you choose to wash your hands in the playroom or
do you choose to wash your hands in the bathroom?
You are going to be a broken record,
predictable and consistent.
The room is the same every time,
not every
minutia,
OK.
When,
when there's 8 Legos in the Lincoln logs bin,
yes,
that will be different.
But in general,
the,
(13:29):
the toys are exactly in the same spot.
The categories of toys are in the same spot.
The items in the playroom are in the same spot for the most part.
Why?
Because it's consistent.
And there are consistent limits if the limits are needed or warranted.
And here's why we do this.
We've talked about it before,
but sometimes we need
(13:51):
reminders.
Reminders are helpful.
Predictability creates the emotional security that kids need.
When we are predictable and consistent
in sessions,
that's what allows children the freedom to work through their stuff.
This is why we do it.
There's purpose in that even.
Next,
(14:11):
ourselves,
our own structure.
I don't really think that we talk about this hardly ever at all.
I guess shame on me.
I don't know.
I don't think we've talked about this hardly at all,
maybe once.
This is why you need to listen to every episode y'all,
cause you never know.
You never know what pearls are gonna be in a,
in any given episode.
OK.
(14:32):
Our own
consistency.
As
a CCPT,
what does that look like?
We have strict boundaries.
Strict
No wiggle room,
no budging.
Lines are drawn in the sand,
strict boundaries.
If we are fully adherent to the model,
(14:54):
we don't deviate.
Our structure
is infallible.
The strict boundaries give us guidelines
so that our internal structure
influences the freedom for the child.
So what are some of those boundaries?
This is not an exhaustive list at all.
I'm just throwing some out there.
No interpretation.
(15:15):
We don't,
we don't need to,
nor do we spend time interpreting what's going on.
It does not change anything that we do
in a session if we interpret.
We do not praise
no value laden words ever.
I know that's so hard,
but
(15:35):
that's,
that's the structure of
our therapeutic interaction.
We don't ask questions.
Why?
Because if we know enough to ask a question,
we know enough to make a statement.
We don't suggest
Oh,
I wonder if you've seen the
(15:55):
kitchen set,
because you're so sick of them hitting the bobo with the
Billy stick.
We don't suggest why?
Because we trust the child.
We don't
lead or steer the session.
There's never an agenda.
We don't have expectations.
(16:18):
Why?
Because we trust the process.
And literally,
the list could go on and on and on.
I just want you to understand,
we have very strict boundaries.
There's so much structure in the way that we interact.
And what we can and cannot do.
We talked about that last time.
(16:39):
Landreth gave us.
So that we understand what we can and cannot do
when we are CCPT.
We,
and where does this all come from?
This is not from
a checklist that we bring into the session.
This is not from
a mental running category of,
OK,
here's what we do and don't do.
It's an internal framework.
(17:01):
It is
an understanding
of who we are
in that room.
We are CCPT.
Therefore,
we reflectively respond.
Therefore,
we attend and attune fully to the child.
Therefore,
our presence
is important.
(17:23):
We trust the child.
We trust the process.
These are
elements of an internal framework.
We get it because we understand the model.
We execute because we understand the model.
And we are CCPT because we understand the model.
(17:46):
This internal structure
allows the child to have freedom.
OK,
also,
when necessary.
We set limits.
That's also part of the structure.
And I know this doesn't seem to add up to most people because
child-centered means the child's in charge,
but then there's structured limits.
(18:07):
Well,
Limit setting has a formula,
first of all,
so yes,
it is very structured.
We don't just say,
oh,
you can't do that,
sorry.
You would never hear a CCPT say that.
There's a framework,
there's structure.
It's 3 steps.
If you have no idea what I'm talking about,
(18:28):
please go back and listen to episode one.
For those of you that have been around the block with me a long time,
3 steps.
We understand there's a very formulaic process
to limit setting,
and we set them when they're needed with that formula.
Why?
Because it provides structure.
By the way,
if you're new,
welcome,
so happy to have you.
This is a really fun group to hang out with each week,
(18:52):
multiple times a week.
Please go back and listen to every episode in order though,
so that you really understand what
all of this is all about.
Even the timing of limit setting is important.
Because
you have to pace out how you handle.
A concern for safety or a concern for property.
(19:14):
Limits are never emotional.
Limits are never controlling.
They're just consistent.
They're
clear.
They're intentional
They're therapeutically valuable.
They're never meant to control a child.
They're never meant to govern what's going on.
(19:39):
They're just
clear and consistent and therapeutically valuable.
Why,
so that the child knows what to expect.
And so that the child is able to trust boundaries.
And when there is safety,
we know this,
when there is safety in the relationship,
that means there's security in the relationship.
(20:01):
That means they can do the work that they need to do.
And then finally,
one last element of structure that I wanna quickly talk about.
We provide the containment.
For the child regarding structure.
And here's what I mean by that.
(20:23):
Our own emotional regulation.
Our own neutrality.
Our own tone.
Our own body language.
Our own
non-reaction.
That provides the stable container.
(20:43):
For the child
Yeah,
please,
please tell me y'all get this.
Because this is stuff that I don't talk about often and as I,
as I hear it coming out of my mouth,
I'm like,
I don't know if I've talked about this enough that that they're gonna get this.
Please tell me that you get this.
And if you don't get it,
listen to this episode until you get it,
(21:03):
please.
If we miss this,
the CCPT Purism series is just
how did we end up with the model that we have today?
I don't want it to end there.
We can talk about history and we can see how it evolved and developed,
but that only gets us so far.
If we don't deeply understand
what this is all about and why,
why
(21:23):
did the pioneers
create this model?
Why was this so important to them?
Why did it evolve in the way that it did?
Why is it such a big deal to talk about this?
Because of this right here.
Our regulation,
our neutrality.
Our tone of voice,
our non-reaction,
(21:44):
all of these things,
it forms a stable container
for a child.
We're talking about structure.
Please get this.
The stable container.
We become the structure.
Yes,
we create structure.
But there's also an element of us becoming the structure.
(22:07):
And guess what?
Structures hold things.
Structures support things.
Structures contain things.
Structures hold things.
We hold
the child's chaos.
We hold the child's emotions.
We hold the child's dysregulation.
(22:30):
We hold the child's whatever it is
that the child needs someone to hold.
Why?
Because we can safely do it for them.
If we
are a structure for them.
And we contain and hold
for them.
(22:50):
They're able to do what they need to do.
So we become structure too.
The,
the whole notion of that
flies in the face.
Of directive approaches.
There's no holding in directive approaches.
(23:11):
There's agenda
CCPT flies in the face of it,
and thank God for that.
Truly,
I thank God for it.
Because
these types of structures.
The playroom,
the
relationship,
our own internal structure,
(23:31):
the structure of limit setting.
The fact that we become a structure,
all of it.
It allows the child to do the work that they need to do.
They get the freedom because we create the structure.
There's such
deep,
rich beauty in that.
So why does the structure matter in the first place?
(23:52):
I,
I think I'd be remiss if I don't kind of unpack that a little bit.
We already know this.
Freedom doesn't feel safe
if there's no
structure.
No one wants freedom
without boundaries.
So,
of course,
we have to make sure that the child feels safe in order to do the work.
(24:14):
We can't do that without structure.
And true freedom.
Look,
we wanna give kids as much freedom as possible.
True freedom
only happens within boundaries.
That's why when we talk about limits,
we talk about the safety and the security and the relationship.
Why?
Because that's how kids experience freedom within boundaries.
(24:38):
And
Kids can explore deeply.
They can really
dive into their work.
When they trust that there is an invisible safety net
that the therapist has built.
Let's go back to the structure.
Those elements of structure,
(24:58):
that's the invisible safety net,
and the child senses it.
The child gets it.
Hey,
I can,
I can have the
time and the tools and the opportunity to do what I need to do
because
I know that Ms.
Brenna has created safety.
And I know that if anything happens,
there's a net
(25:18):
that's been built for me.
There's
A lot
more that I could say,
but I think at the very least.
We have to really grasp the notion.
Of how structure plays into this
because
it's non-directive.
(25:41):
And the misperception is that it's very unstructured,
it's not at all.
Not not even one bit.
However,
here's,
here's the rub y'all.
We have to
stay CCPT for this to work.
It takes a lot of intention.
(26:02):
Takes a lot of self-control.
To stay child-centered.
And lots and lots of therapists
default to
directive techniques
or agenda.
Or interventions.
Not because
they don't
(26:22):
value CCPT.
It's because they haven't internalized the structure of CCPT.
I'm gonna say that again because that's important.
A lot of therapists
deviate from the model.
And default to other types of
techniques or agenda or whatever.
(26:44):
Not because they don't believe
in CCPT.
But because they haven't internalized the structure
of CCPT.
There's so much structure in this model.
It has to be internalized.
It has to resonate.
And you have to see the purpose and the value of the structure.
(27:08):
And this is probably.
What,
what's gonna make all this come together,
I hope.
The more structured you are.
The more free
the child is.
The more structure you
have and create
and are intentional about.
(27:31):
The more free the child is.
And there's the paradox.
Structure is intentional
and it's built.
So that the child has freedom.
So what does,
what does this mean?
What's your,
what's your takeaway?
I try to have a little food for thought,
nugget of wisdom,
(27:51):
something.
I think I told you one of my,
one of my parents said they're clinical pearls.
I was like,
OK,
fine,
we'll call them clinical pearls.
I don't care what we call them,
but I,
I want y'all to have something to walk away with to challenge yourself this week.
Are you operating
within the structure?
Of CCPT.
Or are you kind of hodgepodge,
(28:13):
winging it with pieces of the model
and then pieces of something else from somewhere else,
from someone else,
whatever.
You need to think through
what's,
what's your playroom like.
Is it structured
Is it intentional?
Is it purposeful?
(28:34):
To the degree that it can be,
I get it.
I know some of y'all do not have ideal playroom scenarios.
To the degree it can be.
Is your playroom structured?
Are you structured
as
A CCPT therapist.
Do you hold the boundaries of the model?
(28:54):
Are you
becoming a structure yourself to contain?
Are you
modeling
the structure when you set limits?
And do you embody?
The internal structure
so that emotional freedom is possible.
(29:16):
Are you creating
the kind of structure that kids need
so that they
have the freedom?
To do their work.
CCPT is never a free for all,
ever.
It should never be perceived as such,
and we need to refute the notion
every single time
(29:37):
the idea of that comes up.
Oh,
so they just do whatever they want.
Oh,
so they just play.
Oh,
so you don't do anything clinical.
Oh,
so they just get to be in charge and and run everything.
No.
I was gonna say cued,
but I said I said 4 things.
No to the 4th.
It's freedom within structure always
(29:59):
freedom within structure.
So,
think through
what structure
is worked into your practice this week.
And if you identify areas
that need to be structured differently,
to be more adherent.
I challenge you to work on it because it's
only through that structure that children have the freedom.
(30:21):
So,
next week,
we're going to look at
where therapists will sometimes drift away from the model.
And how even subtle shifts
can pull us out of CCPT and
into something else.
And then
we're deviating and then there's no adherence and then it's no longer CCPT at all.
(30:42):
So,
I love y'all.
I hope that challenges you.
I hope it encourages you
keep
doing this every single day.
You know,
on the Collective call last week,
I talked about
My husband came home and referenced something that he had heard and
he said,
you know,
the notion was
everyone's marching in the other direction.
(31:04):
But
one person has a spear and is throwing it as far as they can.
And they're marching opposite of everyone else
toward the spear.
And then when they get to the spear,
they pick it up and they chuck it as far as they can again.
Then they march toward it again
and everyone else is going in the other direction
and then they finally get to the spear,
then they pick it up and they chuck it
(31:24):
as far as they can and they march toward it again.
And he was like,
that's you and CCPT.
This is what
This is what this looks like
figuratively.
Or marching in the other direction of everybody else.
And it's a battle
And we throw the spear as far as we can.
(31:46):
And that becomes
our
guiding point.
You know,
when you're lost,
you're supposed to walk and you always stare at the same point of reference,
otherwise you don't go in a straight line.
That's like a survival
tool,
FYI.
If,
if you're ever lost somewhere,
you have to stare at one point on the horizon to help you know to walk straight.
(32:09):
Why?
Because
when you throw the spear,
you know where you're going and you know why you're going there.
And everyone else is going in the other direction,
and trust me,
it's easy.
It's easy to go with the flow.
But we choose not to.
If CCPT chooses you.
(32:30):
You,
you're usually going in the other direction of everybody else?
And I hope
that you want to pick up a spear and you want to throw it as far as you can,
and you're gonna keep marching toward it.
And then when you get there,
you're gonna throw it again.
Because
CCPT.
is a battle worth waging.
We know it
(32:52):
You wouldn't be listening to this podcast
and attending CEUs and coaching and joining the
Collective and doing all the things that you're doing if you didn't believe in this.
And
some things are worth fighting for.
And I think you inherently understand that this is worth fighting for.
And sometimes when you fight for something,
(33:14):
you have to lose a lot.
But it's worth it.
So I hope that this series is encouraging you,
number one,
but I hope above all that this podcast encourages you
to remain adherent,
remain faithful,
remain committed.
and fight the battles that need to be fought.
Because it's not about us,
(33:36):
it's about kids.
Kids need people that get it.
And CCPT always gets it.
So I hope that that encourages you.
Love y'all.
We'll talk again soon.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
Brenna Hicks.
For more episodes and resources,
(33:57):
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.
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