March 27, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode, I answer four questions from three different listeners in another Q&A Lightning Round. I talk with Megan in Pennsylvania about how to present CCPT case conceptualizations in group supervision meetings when others don't understand or support the model. I walk through how to use these opportunities to drip-feed CCPT principles and advocate for the model without needing to defend it in full each time.
Next, I respond to Natalie, who’s struggling to hold boundaries with a dysregulated child in a non-governable school library setting. I explain how to define a play space and stay adherent to the model while managing safety and environmental limitations. Then I answer Rob’s question about using CCPT with a 17-year-old client on the spectrum who presents emotionally much younger. Finally, I share my thoughts on a creative boundary-testing scenario involving sticker choices and session wrap-ups, sent in by Lexi in Minnesota. These practical questions show just how adaptable—and powerful—the CCPT model can be across different ages, settings, and challenges.
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Ask Me Questions: Call (813) 812-5525, or email: brenna@thekidcounselor.com
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Common References:
Cochran, N., Nordling, W., & Cochran, J. (2010). Child-Centered Play Therapy (1st ed.). Wiley.
VanFleet, R., Sywulak, A. E., & Sniscak, C. C. (2010). Child-centered play therapy. Guilford Press.
Landreth, G.L. (2023). Play Therapy: The Art of the Relationship (4th ed.). Routledge.
Bratton, S. C., Landreth, G. L., Kellam, T., & Blackard, S. R. (2006). Child parent relationship therapy (CPRT) treatment manual: A 10-session filial therapy model for training parents. Routledge/Taylor & Francis Group.
Benedict, Helen. Themes in Play Therapy. Used with permission to Heartland Play Therapy Institute.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
a master class in child-centered play therapy
and practical support and application for your
work with children and their families.
In today's episode,
we are doing
(00:21):
a mini lightning round.
So
sometimes I've done 8 or 9 questions at a time.
It'll only be 4 today.
But I want to get caught up on some questions
and I think that each of these are really important.
So
I wanna make sure that we can kind of dive into several topics today
for sake of time and ease and help me cover more than one in an episode.
(00:42):
Also wanted to make you aware that this week,
the twenty-eighth Friday,
is the first of the bundle for the advanced pillars with Corwell.
So if you are interested,
it'll be in the show notes.
And I know a lot of you've already registered.
I'm really looking forward to that.
And I've gotten all kinds of new fun stuff to throw into the pillars with
(01:03):
history and and other things to consider.
So I think it's gonna be a lot of fun.
OK,
so we're gonna talk through 4 different scenarios and questions today,
and so we'll dive in.
I'll read a portion of each email,
we'll answer each question one at a time.
The first one
is from Megan in Pennsylvania.
And this question is about
(01:24):
in-group supervision meetings where all of the others are not CCPT.
How to handle that and teach others
about CCPT through case presentations.
And this is a question I get asked often
actually in the collective and in the coaching,
but I'm excited to talk about this on the podcast.
So Megan,
thank you so much for the email.
(01:44):
So I'll read a little bit of this and then we'll dive in.
This is my 5th year as a therapist and I currently practice in a school setting.
I discovered CCPT through grad school,
as I've always been interested in working with children,
but everything I read in terms of other theories didn't quite
sit right with me when it came to working with kids.
I googled and discovered a video of Gary Landreth and for the first time I felt aha,
(02:06):
this feels right to me,
paused the email.
Isn't that exactly what it is like?
I,
I remember
the moment,
and I know all of you remember the moment where you were like.
Yes,
this feels so right.
Yes,
this is what I've been looking for.
Yes,
this is what I've needed in my life for forever and I didn't even know it.
(02:27):
Uh,
we all have experienced that moment.
I think that's so special.
As I went into my career postgraduate,
I felt so much resistance from other therapists in regards to my choice to be CCPT.
The typical quote,
It's just playing.
I don't see how that does anything,
etc.
etc.
and quote.
Yes,
100%,
we all feel that too.
I felt beat down about my choice and my supervisor at
(02:47):
the time advised me to do half the therapy session using CBT
and half the time being CCPT.
Pause again.
Can you imagine?
Can you
feasibly and practically imagine
what that must be like
to do half a session CBT
and half a session CCPT?
(03:07):
Just ponder that for a little while.
Anyway,
OK,
I'm back on track.
I did that for a while,
but it felt off.
Imagine.
My clients weren't making progress and I felt like
I was banging my head against the wall.
Then I had a 4 year old
who I had convinced my supervisor to allow me to be CCPT and it changed my life.
I'm so glad.
I had never experienced such powerful sessions and witnesses,
(03:30):
such positive moments in a child.
In 2024,
I became fully CCPT all the time with everyone
and within myself.
I was recommended your podcast.
Here's y'all,
this is why I do this,
100%.
This is why I do this.
Megan,
thank you for sharing it.
Every time someone tells me something negative about CCPT,
(03:51):
I always have your voice in the back of my mind encouraging me.
Even when I have self-doubt,
after a particularly tough session where the child room wrecks,
I go back to your podcast and I remind myself why I do what I do.
That is exactly what this podcast is all about.
It is so that you have the courage
and the adherence that you need to do this work.
(04:12):
I'm so glad.
OK,
so on to the question.
What does a case conceptualization or case presentation
look like when it comes to CCPT?
As a school-based therapist,
I engage in weekly group supervision meetings where all others are not CCPT,
and I would like to begin to teach others I
work with about CCPT through these conceptualizations and presentations.
(04:33):
All right,
so
let's start off with a really helpful rule of thumb
for all of us that we need to drip feed
information and content.
This is true with parents and RPCs.
This is true with
stakeholders,
this is true with colleagues.
If someone has no idea or no understanding of CCPT,
(04:53):
we have to start really small and really basic.
And often what happens is we feel outnumbered
because we have an entire room full of people that are not CCPT
and then there's us.
And I've had so many therapists say,
You know,
who am I to,
to advocate for this model?
Who am I to try to convince them
that what I'm doing has value?
(05:15):
Who am I?
Well,
who you are is CCPT.
And just like they advocate for their model,
and often in a very pushy directive way insists that we should adhere to their model,
we can absolutely
provide information and constructs and philosophies and tenets
while we talk about our cases.
(05:36):
So,
Megan,
what I would encourage you to do is focus on one
concept at a time.
In other words,
what are you wanting to do?
That is going to illustrate a point
in that meeting.
So it might be,
you can demonstrate how a child has made progress with their anxiety.
(05:56):
The way that you're going to present that
is in
maybe light of the relationship.
Maybe it's in light of
increase in self-confidence.
Maybe it's in light of
increase in self-awareness.
But you're going to have to tie it back to one
main concept.
(06:17):
So it could be
just noticing
a child is a powerful builder of self-esteem.
So that's your teaching point.
This is why I'm seeing shifts in the playroom.
This is why
the child is developing more self-confidence because the CCPT model,
all of the focus is on the child.
(06:37):
And the principle is that just noticing a
child is a powerful builder of self-esteem.
We have to start really small.
Sometimes it's just going to be a rule of thumb,
something as simple as
If you can't say it in 10 words or less,
don't say it.
And here's what happens over time.
Other therapists that are practicing other theoretical models,
(06:58):
they're not going to understand it,
they're not going to get it,
but the goal is not in one fell swoop,
for them to understand but to plant seeds.
And you never know which one's going to take root.
You never know which one's going to grow.
And so it's just one weekly meeting at a time.
You share one concept.
You share one principle,
(07:19):
you share one tenant.
And you make sure that as you're talking through your case.
You
advocate for the model.
So we know that kids aren't rational.
We know that until the age of about 12 or 13,
they don't have abstract reasoning.
We know that kids naturally will become a better version of themselves.
(07:39):
We know the relationship is the most important thing.
So you weave that into your commentary when you're talking about your cases,
as not only
rationale,
but as teaching moments.
So,
Megan,
I hope that helps.
I'm actually really excited we were able to talk about that.
And this is something that we face not just in
group supervision meetings,
(08:00):
it's often in the places
in which we work.
You know,
we're in a staff meeting or we're having case discussions and
there's outside pressure that
we should change because what we're doing makes no sense.
And we have to be really confident
in our model,
trust the process,
and believe that the child is healing because we see evidence of it,
(08:25):
even when no one else understands,
but we don't give up though.
A lot of therapists just get to a point where they're like,
I just don't say anything anymore
because all I get is argument.
All it creates is confrontation.
All they try to do is convince me otherwise,
but if we give up,
the implication is that we have nothing worth fighting for.
And I,
(08:45):
I don't think that that is the most appropriate approach.
We continue to advocate,
we continue to fight for it because we know that it matters.
All right.
Thank you so much,
Megan.
Next,
we're going to
answer a question from Natalie also in Pennsylvania.
So,
hello to both of you from PA.
All right,
(09:06):
so this question
is about
providing CCPT
in
an environment that is not necessarily governable.
And so,
we'll talk through this scenario because this is a little bit tricky to navigate.
So here's parts of the email.
I've been following your podcast for a while.
I'm a school-based mental health therapist
(09:27):
and practice CCPT.
One of the schools that I work in has very limited space,
so I meet with students in the school library.
The room is rather large,
includes a big table and chairs on one side,
a big open space on the other,
and walls lined with bookshelves filled with books.
I bring a tote bag and backpack with various toys and
art supplies each week that my clients can play with.
I have a 7 year old client who I'm having a hard time setting limits with.
(09:49):
When he comes into session,
he tries to climb the bookshelves,
throw the books,
take things from a closet that does not belong to me,
stick things in the pencil sharpener,
hit things around the room with a meter stick.
I'm this,
I know,
I know,
Natalie,
that when this is happening,
this is not funny,
but I'm chuckling to myself because I'm reading this and I'm like,
Yeah,
of course he is.
Like this is so normal for play therapy,
(10:10):
so I'm just like,
yeah,
whatever.
But in a library,
I completely get it.
It's,
it's not exactly easy to manage.
So
my chuckle is just because it's appropriate behavior.
If I were in my own office,
I would not have the things in the playroom that I wouldn't want a kid to play with.
I try to set limits,
but I feel like I'm setting limits on almost everything he tries to do
due to the safety concerns or fear that he
(10:32):
would break something that belongs to the school.
He becomes very angry
when I enforce limits,
which results in him engaging in other activities that I need to set limits on.
For example,
he likes to play with a meter stick or ruler that belongs to the school.
Sometimes he uses it as a hockey stick to push a ball around
the room or as a sword that he swings in the air,
which I'm fine with.
Last session,
(10:52):
he was hitting it against the wall trying to push the fire alarms on the ceiling
and hitting the ceiling tiles.
I reflected,
you really love playing with the meter stick,
but the meter stick is not for hitting the ceiling.
You can choose to use the meter stick to push
the ball or choose to swing it like a sword.
He responded,
I choose neither.
When he,
which is,
by the way,
a choice,
Natalie,
(11:12):
when he continued the behavior,
I tried to remain neutral and set the ultimate limit.
I stated,
if you choose to keep hitting the ceiling with the meter stick,
you're choosing not to play with the meter stick anymore.
When the behavior continued,
I took the meter stick and put it on the shelf.
I told him,
You chose not to play with the meter stick anymore today.
You can try again next week.
He became angry and started throwing janga blocks onto the bookshelves,
(11:34):
dumping all the art supplies on the floor,
and trying to climb the shelf to get the meter stick back.
I don't feel comfortable physically moving him and just
stood in front of the shelf to block him.
I reflected his feelings and content,
but overall felt at a loss.
Is it possible to provide CCPT in this environment?
Is there a different way I can go about setting and enforcing limits with him?
(11:56):
OK,
so this one's tricky,
but I'm so glad that you emailed Natalie.
Thank you.
All right.
First and foremost,
this is why
we advocate,
according to the model
for a CCPT playroom.
Because it is really difficult
to adhere to the model
and have the model effective
(12:17):
when there are outliers,
and in this case,
the space is an outlier,
the items are an outlier,
expectations of others are an outlier.
Your hands are tied on some of these scenarios because
he's using things,
breaking things,
doing things that
he
can't quote.
Because it's the library,
not a playroom.
OK.
(12:37):
So this is why it's so important,
just general
announcement,
just as a reminder,
or maybe to encourage you if you do not have a dedicated CCPT playroom.
It's important to
have
a playroom because it limits the number of
limits
that you have to set.
It also helps you to not feel like
(12:59):
you're
beholden to other people's expectations.
So when you are at a school or an agency or an organization or wherever you might be,
you really need to advocate and push for a dedicated play space
because it just makes your job and the entire session easier
and obviously
more therapeutically effective
(13:21):
if
you don't have to have all these concerns.
However,
Natalie,
because you are in the library,
my answer is yes,
you can provide CCPT in this environment,
but you're going to have to create.
A more governable area.
And what I mean by that is.
I would encourage you to put a rug on the floor,
a blanket,
(13:41):
a sheet,
a quilt.
I don't really have any idea of what that would look like for you.
What feasibly speaking,
can you lay down?
And
you need to define the boundaries of a play area,
even if it's in a large room.
This is very similar to when parents are providing play sessions with their own kids
while participating in CPRT.
(14:02):
They sometimes are in the living room,
sometimes they're in the kitchen,
sometimes they're in a bedroom,
but you have to have a definable boundary of the play area
and off of that boundary is off limits.
So if it were me,
even though you're in a massive room with a huge library
in the midst of it all,
I would set up a very clear boundary of the play area
(14:24):
and the limits are only
that
the play time is for that specific area
that would eliminate the shelves,
the fire alarms,
the ceiling,
all of the things that you're describing because he
doesn't have free reign over the entire library area.
And then also,
what you're describing is dysregulation.
(14:45):
I know this is not part of your question,
but I want to kind of reassure and normalize a little bit here.
He's just a disregulated seven year old,
and he's testing boundaries,
and he doesn't have self-control,
and he doesn't have emotional vocabulary.
So when we look at what he's doing,
first of all,
it's expected.
This is standard behavior.
(15:06):
Second of all,
when he reacts to the limits,
that's also expected
because I guarantee you no one in his life has ever set limits
in this manner with him before.
My gut tells me
one of two things is his reality.
Either he
has created an environment where everyone walks around on eggshells around him,
and he just gets to rule the roost and do whatever he wants because
(15:28):
no one will stand up for him because they're scared of his reactions,
or
He has
very,
very high expectations and
they control his behavior for him when he doesn't match up.
In other words,
they would just rip the stick out of his hand.
They would just send him to his room,
they would just spank him or punish him or ground him or,
(15:51):
you know,
whatever the,
the approach is,
but essentially what he's learned is I don't have to control my own behavior.
Someone else will always step in and control it for me.
And or
I just get to do whatever I want because I just have to
escalate and ramp up and everyone always is scared and gives in.
So you providing limits in this neutral child-centered way,
(16:12):
it's completely foreign to him.
So he's testing you,
he's testing the relationship,
he's testing the limits,
he's testing boundaries,
he's testing all of it.
Why?
Because he has no idea how to self control.
So this is something he's developing,
which is why it's necessary.
So,
I know you're kind of beating yourself up about maybe I'm setting too many limits,
(16:33):
but limits are only needed when they're needed,
and
when they are needed,
they're set neutrally,
and it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing.
So while the boundary,
the play area will help,
he's still going to push boundaries and test limits.
So you're still going to be setting limits with him.
And then he's probably still going to react for a while.
(16:53):
So when you said you chose not to play with the meter stick anymore,
you can try again next week,
and he got angry.
That's because he's disappointed with his choice.
And remember,
the beauty of limit setting
from the child-centered perspective is,
you would have chosen for him to play with the meter stick.
You would always choose for him to play with the meter stick.
(17:14):
He chose not to
because he chose
to hit the ceiling.
And when he said I choose neither,
that's a power struggle.
So we can see how much of this is power struggle.
It all makes sense.
So
standing in front of the shelf to
block him from getting it is absolutely appropriate
because while you're doing so you're constantly reminding,
(17:37):
oh,
you really wish that you could get that,
but you chose not to have the meter stick today when you chose to hit it on the ceiling,
you can try again next time.
You're just going to reinforce that over and over again.
So,
you can absolutely provide CCPT in this environment.
You have to hold fast to the model.
You have to remain adherent with when we set limits and how we set limits.
(17:58):
But I would also structure the environment as much as possible.
So that you have a more
controllable space.
Maybe that means
you set uphoji screens or you pull the
I don't know,
in schools they have those little like room divider
things that are in the track and the ceiling.
Maybe you pull something across,
(18:19):
maybe you put up a shoji screen,
maybe you have a row of tables that separates your play area from the rest of the room.
You just wanna make sure that the environment is as controllable as possible.
And make sure there's a very clear visual boundary,
because as soon as he gets up and tries to leave the blanket,
the quilt,
whatever it is that you have down,
you say,
oh,
you'd really like to go over there,
(18:40):
but our playtime is for on
this space right here.
You can choose to play with all the toys in
most of the ways that you'd like on the blanket.
And then that will mitigate and limit some of the things that he would likely do
otherwise.
So Natalie,
thanks so much for the email.
I hope that you found that helpful and
I know so many of you are in environments like that,
(19:00):
so hopefully that was
something that you all can take with you.
OK,
so now we're moving on to Rob in Arizona,
Rob's emailed before it's good to hear from you again,
Rob,
thank you.
So his question
is about a 17 year old on the spectrum,
presenting very young,
emotionally and
(19:22):
just maturation.
And so,
he's curious about
whether or not CCPT would be helpful.
So let me read parts of this,
and then we'll dive in.
I can't thank you enough for the podcast and
the insight and guidance you've provided to me.
You've become a vital mentor and person I look up to in this field.
(19:42):
Thank you,
Rob.
I appreciate that.
I have a unique case.
I have a 17 year old on the spectrum with intellectual
and cognitive delays where he presents closer to a 7-year-old emotionally,
and it is clear abstract reasoning is not present based on what I've seen.
I've seen him 3 times
and also what the Guardian reports at home.
He struggles with impulse control,
self-esteem,
(20:02):
and emotional regulation.
And has worked with several therapists in the past to no avail.
Generally they've done DBT,
CBT,
and various other top down therapies.
I'm not surprised there's been
very little progress.
I know you generally focus on working with children 3 to 14,
but I think this child would be a good fit
for the play therapy to provide space for empowerment,
(20:23):
self-actualization,
practice choice making,
emotion tracking,
and developing a sense of trust with someone who is delighted to be with him.
Any insight to support this kid would be very helpful as
this is a case that has challenged me a bit.
I feel like a different approach is necessary
as he struggled to find his way in therapy with
approaches that do not meet him where he is.
OK,
(20:43):
so I love this question actually,
Rob,
thank you.
The beauty of CCPT is that it works with
whole life span.
There are plenty of studies that show this works with adults,
the geriatrics,
with
every scenario,
every age,
every,
everything,
it is just universally well received.
(21:04):
Why?
Because
it's based on Rogers.
And it's based on relationship
and it's based on
the environment and the person
that allows the scenario for a person to become a better version of themselves.
One of the things that we often consider
when doing CCPT specifically with children
is where they are developmentally
(21:26):
and emotionally because
chronological age
is often not reflective of where the child is.
You might have a 10 year old that presents 14.
And you might have a 14 year old that presents 10.
So this is far less about the number,
as it is where the child is,
just in the realm of maturing.
(21:49):
So
this specific child
on the spectrum and with delays
presenting like a seven year old,
this would be an ideal fit
for this child.
Now,
obviously 17 year old is going to
be
very different in a playroom.
But
(22:09):
it's still going to meet him where he is,
and if he is indeed around 7 emotionally and he doesn't have abstract reasoning,
can you imagine how frustrating it would be for
him and the therapist and caregivers and everyone involved
to try to do CBT
because he's 17,
almost an adult,
so CBT should be ideal,
(22:32):
not if the child's on the spectrum with intellectual and cognitive delays.
We know that
neurodivergent
people,
their brains are just wired differently,
they process information differently.
We know if there's delays of any kind,
it puts them behind
the standards for childhood development.
(22:53):
And we know that we've already had other therapies,
and they haven't worked.
So,
I would argue that CCPT is an ideal fit,
just maybe,
I mean,
for so many reasons,
but if we're gonna whittle it down to one,
just maybe in the fact
that you mentioned it already,
he's gonna be with someone who delights in him.
(23:14):
I can imagine that this kid has very few or maybe no one
in this world.
That delights in him.
Why?
Because he doesn't check boxes.
He doesn't act like a 17 year old,
he doesn't talk like a 17 year old.
He doesn't think like a 17 year old.
He's on the spectrum.
He doesn't understand emotions,
he doesn't interact with people
(23:35):
in a,
in a standard way.
I guarantee you there are just nothing but expectations for this kid
all day every day,
and guess what,
he feels like he always fails.
Like he never measures up.
And
if he's presenting a 7.
Can you imagine
how frustrating it must be for him.
To really not be able
(23:58):
to make sense of his world
the way he's expected to,
we see this in kids
that
don't fit standards.
Here's what I mean.
If you have a really big kid
for their age,
at any age in development,
it can be a really big 4 year old,
a really big eight year old,
a really big 12 year old doesn't matter.
If you have a kid that's really big for their age.
(24:18):
They
have difficulty.
Because they don't quote fit in.
Expectations are different,
standards are different,
they present differently,
so people receive them differently.
Same thing when kids are really tiny.
Few of the tiniest,
smallest,
frailest little kid according to peers,
(24:39):
struggles.
You have a kid that's super,
super mature,
struggles.
You have a kid that's super immature struggles.
You have a kid that's super
Athletic.
Way far beyond
other peers struggles.
You have a kid that's super musical,
way far beyond peers struggles.
Why?
(24:59):
Because everything in this world
is dictated by,
I need to categorize you
and you need to just be in with the fray.
And you need to just kind of
be a part of
what the standards are.
So this is true universally for kids
when they don't fit the box and when it's not easy to categorize them,
(25:22):
they struggle for a variety of reasons which I don't have time to get into,
but
we know that that's a difficulty anyway.
This kid has so many reasons why this would be tricky.
So Rob,
I'm very much supportive and in favor of CCPT.
I think he will thrive.
I think he will really truly feel seen and heard and understood,
(25:43):
probably something he rarely,
if ever,
feels.
And you know,
look,
the truth will be in
the outcomes,
but I really highly anticipate what we know
to be true for universal outcomes will emerge.
This kid will really find a sense of who he is.
He will become a better version of himself
and.
You know,
we'll see evidence of CCPT in its glory.
(26:07):
So
I very much think that would be a helpful fit,
Rob,
and I'm so glad that you emailed about that.
All right,
and last but not least,
I want to cover a question from Lexi in Minnesota.
And this is about
ending the session
and how they kind of provide choices at the end
(26:28):
and then
a little quick blip on
the room wreck episode scenario she referenced that she listened to before.
We allow kids to choose one sticker or one tattoo every session at the end,
our equivalent of you doing a snack,
I imagine.
This kid in session has taken more than 2 balloons,
which is the limit 1 or 2.
(26:48):
He has tried to sneak more than 1 sticker at the end.
The last 2 weeks he stayed in the lobby basically sleeping.
When I woke him up this time,
he thought for a while and asked if he could pick 0 stickers today
and 2 next time.
I responded,
you're wondering if it's OK,
and waited to see what he would do.
He seemed annoyed that I didn't answer or agree and walked out.
(27:09):
My internal internal thoughts,
is that OK?
No,
I should keep it consistent.
The end of the session rule should stay the same because it would be hard
for me to track each week how many stickers he has accumulated if this continues,
and he has inconsistency at home,
or he can remind me
his responsibility versus me tracking and he's learning to delay gratification.
(27:31):
Would you ever offer a kid 2 snacks if they asked
for 01 week so they could have 2 the next?
OK,
this makes me happy because,
yes,
this has absolutely happened at my center and yes,
I've absolutely
been OK with that.
So let's talk through this.
I completely understand,
Lexi,
why you are saying,
my question is,
should I keep it consistent
(27:52):
and it would be too difficult for me to manage and
things are inconsistent for him at home blah blah blah blah.
OK.
But here's what
our adult cognitive intellectual rational brain is usually not aware of.
This is emotional for this kid.
So I do think it's probably a little bit of power and control,
but I think it's a little bit of limit
(28:14):
testing maybe as well.
But
here's what I think is going on.
He is actually finding a clever solution
to
complying with the limit.
He has never liked the fact that he can't take more than what he wants,
or sorry,
more than what he can choose.
He always wants more.
So the option is one sticker or one tattoo and he wants 2.
(28:37):
So emotionally,
this rule feels arbitrary to him.
This rule feels frustrating to him.
He's not asking you for 4.
He's asking you for 1 per week,
but split up
over 2 weeks by taking none 1 week and 2 the next.
This is creative and clever problem solving.
(28:58):
And I don't know that this is in any book.
I don't know that this is in any text,
but I have always believed.
That if a child comes up with a clever,
creative way
to comply with the limit,
even if it seems a little bit out of the box,
even if it seems something that I would not have thought of myself,
as long as the child is demonstrating compliance to the limit.
(29:21):
That is always a choice,
in my opinion.
So I very much have had kids say,
if I choose 0 snacks this week,
then does that mean that I get to choose 2 next week?
And here's my response.
Oh,
you're wondering about changing snacks today versus next time.
You know that you choose one each week.
So you could choose one this week and one next week,
(29:44):
but if you choose 0 today,
you can choose 2 next week because that's still 2 snacks in 2 weeks.
And notice that
it's actually the child's way of finding a way to get needs met,
because this kid desperately wants two things to take home for whatever reason.
So he's figuring out a workaround,
(30:06):
but it's still within compliance.
So let me go back to your original thought.
Should I keep it consistent?
Should the rules stay the same?
because it would be hard for me to track?
OK,
I'm gonna talk about the tracking in a second,
but I would absolutely
remain adherent and consistent with the limit if he was trying to break the limit.
But in this scenario,
he is not.
(30:26):
He's actually complying with the limit.
He's just waiting for two weeks to take two things.
So,
I've always been in favor of that,
and I think that that's really helpful.
Now,
to speak to your point of it would be hard for you to track and keep,
keep the accumulation of the numbers,
etc.
etc.
This is where you absolutely make it a choice.
(30:46):
So you said,
oh,
so you're choosing to take no snacks this week.
And you're choosing to take 2 snacks next week.
If you choose to take
0 this week and 2 next week,
you choose to remind me
that you chose 0 last week and that you're choosing to take 2 next
week because I might not remember because I usually give 1 each week.
(31:07):
So you're going to have to remind me.
Now there's buy-in,
there's ownership,
there's responsibility,
it's off your brain,
it's off your burden,
you no longer have to think about it.
And it obviously matters to this kid or he wouldn't be proposing this scenario.
So it will matter enough that he will remind you,
and he will.
He'll come in next week and he'll say,
(31:29):
Remember,
Ms.
Brenna,
I didn't take any snacks last week and I'm choosing to have,
or in your case,
stickers,
I guess.
I didn't take any stickers last week,
so I'm choosing to have 2 today.
And you're going to say,
oh,
you remember to remind me,
you,
you chose 0 last week,
so you're choosing 2 today.
And that's the most helpful way to handle that on both of your sides.
(31:50):
OK,
glad we talked about that.
And then finally,
quick refresher following your recent stuck in room wreck episode.
If the child chose to help clean up
because they dumped all the bins and didn't play with any toys,
and then it comes to the end of the session
and you remind them of their choice to help clean up
and they just walk out of the session,
how would you respond?
And then if they choose no snack and walk out of the office,
(32:12):
what do you do that session and next?
OK,
I'm,
I'm a little confused about the choosing no snack scenario,
so I'm not going to respond to that.
But as far as the,
how do you remind them of
the choice that they made?
So at the 5 minute mark,
you say,
OK,
child's name,
we have 5 minutes left,
and you chose to help me clean up because you
(32:34):
chose to put toys on the floor without using them.
So you can choose to clean up what you choose to clean up for the next
time that we have together,
remaining time we have together.
Now,
I'm gonna be really clear,
sometimes kids will move like 4 things.
So
they,
they really don't like the notion of cleaning up and they're probably
going to power and control struggle with it a little bit.
(32:57):
So you can't have really high expectations that
they're actually going to clean the whole room.
But you just at the 5 minute mark,
let them know.
We have 5 minutes left and you chose to help me clean up because you chose to
put the toys on the floor and not play with them.
And then you give them choices about what they choose to clean.
So,
you can choose to clean up the Legos,
or you can choose to clean up the Lincoln logs,
(33:19):
or you can choose to clean up something else.
And then you just continue to remind them and encourage them for those 5 minutes
that they've chosen to clean.
And if they're refusing,
you say,
oh,
you really wish that you would have chosen not to clean,
but when you chose to put the toys on the floor without using them,
you chose to help me clean up and it's time to clean up.
So you just are constantly reinforcing the choice that was made.
(33:41):
Now,
you can't physically insist that a child cleans up
and sometimes they really don't help a whole lot.
But the goal is not really that they help clean up.
The goal is that they learn to self-control and self-regulate,
so you have to kind of keep the intention in mind.
It's not so much about them cleaning,
it's about them realizing that if they choose to room wreck for 567 sessions in a row,
(34:04):
they're choosing to at least assume a little
bit of the responsibility for the clean up
and that sometimes will help them get unstuck in that scenario.
All right,
y'all,
thank you so much for all the questions.
I mean,
I like doing mini lightning rounds.
Those are fun.
So if you have other questions you'd like to ask,
shoot me an email brenna@thekidcounselor.com.
I love y'all.
We'll talk again soon.
Bye.
(34:25):
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
Brenna Hicks.
For more episodes and resources,
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
a master class in child-centered play therapy
and practical support and application for your
work with children and their families.
In today's episode,
we are doing
(00:21):
a mini lightning round.
So
sometimes I've done 8 or 9 questions at a time.
It'll only be 4 today.
But I want to get caught up on some questions
and I think that each of these are really important.
So
I wanna make sure that we can kind of dive into several topics today
for sake of time and ease and help me cover more than one in an episode.
(00:42):
Also wanted to make you aware that this week,
the twenty-eighth Friday,
is the first of the bundle for the advanced pillars with Corwell.
So if you are interested,
it'll be in the show notes.
And I know a lot of you've already registered.
I'm really looking forward to that.
And I've gotten all kinds of new fun stuff to throw into the pillars with
(01:03):
history and and other things to consider.
So I think it's gonna be a lot of fun.
OK,
so we're gonna talk through 4 different scenarios and questions today,
and so we'll dive in.
I'll read a portion of each email,
we'll answer each question one at a time.
The first one
is from Megan in Pennsylvania.
And this question is about
(01:24):
in-group supervision meetings where all of the others are not CCPT.
How to handle that and teach others
about CCPT through case presentations.
And this is a question I get asked often
actually in the collective and in the coaching,
but I'm excited to talk about this on the podcast.
So Megan,
thank you so much for the email.
(01:44):
So I'll read a little bit of this and then we'll dive in.
This is my 5th year as a therapist and I currently practice in a school setting.
I discovered CCPT through grad school,
as I've always been interested in working with children,
but everything I read in terms of other theories didn't quite
sit right with me when it came to working with kids.
I googled and discovered a video of Gary Landreth and for the first time I felt aha,
(02:06):
this feels right to me,
paused the email.
Isn't that exactly what it is like?
I,
I remember
the moment,
and I know all of you remember the moment where you were like.
Yes,
this feels so right.
Yes,
this is what I've been looking for.
Yes,
this is what I've needed in my life for forever and I didn't even know it.
(02:27):
Uh,
we all have experienced that moment.
I think that's so special.
As I went into my career postgraduate,
I felt so much resistance from other therapists in regards to my choice to be CCPT.
The typical quote,
It's just playing.
I don't see how that does anything,
etc.
etc.
and quote.
Yes,
100%,
we all feel that too.
I felt beat down about my choice and my supervisor at
(02:47):
the time advised me to do half the therapy session using CBT
and half the time being CCPT.
Pause again.
Can you imagine?
Can you
feasibly and practically imagine
what that must be like
to do half a session CBT
and half a session CCPT?
(03:07):
Just ponder that for a little while.
Anyway,
OK,
I'm back on track.
I did that for a while,
but it felt off.
Imagine.
My clients weren't making progress and I felt like
I was banging my head against the wall.
Then I had a 4 year old
who I had convinced my supervisor to allow me to be CCPT and it changed my life.
I'm so glad.
I had never experienced such powerful sessions and witnesses,
(03:30):
such positive moments in a child.
In 2024,
I became fully CCPT all the time with everyone
and within myself.
I was recommended your podcast.
Here's y'all,
this is why I do this,
100%.
This is why I do this.
Megan,
thank you for sharing it.
Every time someone tells me something negative about CCPT,
(03:51):
I always have your voice in the back of my mind encouraging me.
Even when I have self-doubt,
after a particularly tough session where the child room wrecks,
I go back to your podcast and I remind myself why I do what I do.
That is exactly what this podcast is all about.
It is so that you have the courage
and the adherence that you need to do this work.
(04:12):
I'm so glad.
OK,
so on to the question.
What does a case conceptualization or case presentation
look like when it comes to CCPT?
As a school-based therapist,
I engage in weekly group supervision meetings where all others are not CCPT,
and I would like to begin to teach others I
work with about CCPT through these conceptualizations and presentations.
(04:33):
All right,
so
let's start off with a really helpful rule of thumb
for all of us that we need to drip feed
information and content.
This is true with parents and RPCs.
This is true with
stakeholders,
this is true with colleagues.
If someone has no idea or no understanding of CCPT,
(04:53):
we have to start really small and really basic.
And often what happens is we feel outnumbered
because we have an entire room full of people that are not CCPT
and then there's us.
And I've had so many therapists say,
You know,
who am I to,
to advocate for this model?
Who am I to try to convince them
that what I'm doing has value?
(05:15):
Who am I?
Well,
who you are is CCPT.
And just like they advocate for their model,
and often in a very pushy directive way insists that we should adhere to their model,
we can absolutely
provide information and constructs and philosophies and tenets
while we talk about our cases.
(05:36):
So,
Megan,
what I would encourage you to do is focus on one
concept at a time.
In other words,
what are you wanting to do?
That is going to illustrate a point
in that meeting.
So it might be,
you can demonstrate how a child has made progress with their anxiety.
(05:56):
The way that you're going to present that
is in
maybe light of the relationship.
Maybe it's in light of
increase in self-confidence.
Maybe it's in light of
increase in self-awareness.
But you're going to have to tie it back to one
main concept.
(06:17):
So it could be
just noticing
a child is a powerful builder of self-esteem.
So that's your teaching point.
This is why I'm seeing shifts in the playroom.
This is why
the child is developing more self-confidence because the CCPT model,
all of the focus is on the child.
(06:37):
And the principle is that just noticing a
child is a powerful builder of self-esteem.
We have to start really small.
Sometimes it's just going to be a rule of thumb,
something as simple as
If you can't say it in 10 words or less,
don't say it.
And here's what happens over time.
Other therapists that are practicing other theoretical models,
(06:58):
they're not going to understand it,
they're not going to get it,
but the goal is not in one fell swoop,
for them to understand but to plant seeds.
And you never know which one's going to take root.
You never know which one's going to grow.
And so it's just one weekly meeting at a time.
You share one concept.
You share one principle,
(07:19):
you share one tenant.
And you make sure that as you're talking through your case.
You
advocate for the model.
So we know that kids aren't rational.
We know that until the age of about 12 or 13,
they don't have abstract reasoning.
We know that kids naturally will become a better version of themselves.
(07:39):
We know the relationship is the most important thing.
So you weave that into your commentary when you're talking about your cases,
as not only
rationale,
but as teaching moments.
So,
Megan,
I hope that helps.
I'm actually really excited we were able to talk about that.
And this is something that we face not just in
group supervision meetings,
(08:00):
it's often in the places
in which we work.
You know,
we're in a staff meeting or we're having case discussions and
there's outside pressure that
we should change because what we're doing makes no sense.
And we have to be really confident
in our model,
trust the process,
and believe that the child is healing because we see evidence of it,
(08:25):
even when no one else understands,
but we don't give up though.
A lot of therapists just get to a point where they're like,
I just don't say anything anymore
because all I get is argument.
All it creates is confrontation.
All they try to do is convince me otherwise,
but if we give up,
the implication is that we have nothing worth fighting for.
And I,
(08:45):
I don't think that that is the most appropriate approach.
We continue to advocate,
we continue to fight for it because we know that it matters.
All right.
Thank you so much,
Megan.
Next,
we're going to
answer a question from Natalie also in Pennsylvania.
So,
hello to both of you from PA.
All right,
(09:06):
so this question
is about
providing CCPT
in
an environment that is not necessarily governable.
And so,
we'll talk through this scenario because this is a little bit tricky to navigate.
So here's parts of the email.
I've been following your podcast for a while.
I'm a school-based mental health therapist
(09:27):
and practice CCPT.
One of the schools that I work in has very limited space,
so I meet with students in the school library.
The room is rather large,
includes a big table and chairs on one side,
a big open space on the other,
and walls lined with bookshelves filled with books.
I bring a tote bag and backpack with various toys and
art supplies each week that my clients can play with.
I have a 7 year old client who I'm having a hard time setting limits with.
(09:49):
When he comes into session,
he tries to climb the bookshelves,
throw the books,
take things from a closet that does not belong to me,
stick things in the pencil sharpener,
hit things around the room with a meter stick.
I'm this,
I know,
I know,
Natalie,
that when this is happening,
this is not funny,
but I'm chuckling to myself because I'm reading this and I'm like,
Yeah,
of course he is.
Like this is so normal for play therapy,
(10:10):
so I'm just like,
yeah,
whatever.
But in a library,
I completely get it.
It's,
it's not exactly easy to manage.
So
my chuckle is just because it's appropriate behavior.
If I were in my own office,
I would not have the things in the playroom that I wouldn't want a kid to play with.
I try to set limits,
but I feel like I'm setting limits on almost everything he tries to do
due to the safety concerns or fear that he
(10:32):
would break something that belongs to the school.
He becomes very angry
when I enforce limits,
which results in him engaging in other activities that I need to set limits on.
For example,
he likes to play with a meter stick or ruler that belongs to the school.
Sometimes he uses it as a hockey stick to push a ball around
the room or as a sword that he swings in the air,
which I'm fine with.
Last session,
(10:52):
he was hitting it against the wall trying to push the fire alarms on the ceiling
and hitting the ceiling tiles.
I reflected,
you really love playing with the meter stick,
but the meter stick is not for hitting the ceiling.
You can choose to use the meter stick to push
the ball or choose to swing it like a sword.
He responded,
I choose neither.
When he,
which is,
by the way,
a choice,
Natalie,
(11:12):
when he continued the behavior,
I tried to remain neutral and set the ultimate limit.
I stated,
if you choose to keep hitting the ceiling with the meter stick,
you're choosing not to play with the meter stick anymore.
When the behavior continued,
I took the meter stick and put it on the shelf.
I told him,
You chose not to play with the meter stick anymore today.
You can try again next week.
He became angry and started throwing janga blocks onto the bookshelves,
(11:34):
dumping all the art supplies on the floor,
and trying to climb the shelf to get the meter stick back.
I don't feel comfortable physically moving him and just
stood in front of the shelf to block him.
I reflected his feelings and content,
but overall felt at a loss.
Is it possible to provide CCPT in this environment?
Is there a different way I can go about setting and enforcing limits with him?
(11:56):
OK,
so this one's tricky,
but I'm so glad that you emailed Natalie.
Thank you.
All right.
First and foremost,
this is why
we advocate,
according to the model
for a CCPT playroom.
Because it is really difficult
to adhere to the model
and have the model effective
(12:17):
when there are outliers,
and in this case,
the space is an outlier,
the items are an outlier,
expectations of others are an outlier.
Your hands are tied on some of these scenarios because
he's using things,
breaking things,
doing things that
he
can't quote.
Because it's the library,
not a playroom.
OK.
(12:37):
So this is why it's so important,
just general
announcement,
just as a reminder,
or maybe to encourage you if you do not have a dedicated CCPT playroom.
It's important to
have
a playroom because it limits the number of
limits
that you have to set.
It also helps you to not feel like
(12:59):
you're
beholden to other people's expectations.
So when you are at a school or an agency or an organization or wherever you might be,
you really need to advocate and push for a dedicated play space
because it just makes your job and the entire session easier
and obviously
more therapeutically effective
(13:21):
if
you don't have to have all these concerns.
However,
Natalie,
because you are in the library,
my answer is yes,
you can provide CCPT in this environment,
but you're going to have to create.
A more governable area.
And what I mean by that is.
I would encourage you to put a rug on the floor,
a blanket,
(13:41):
a sheet,
a quilt.
I don't really have any idea of what that would look like for you.
What feasibly speaking,
can you lay down?
And
you need to define the boundaries of a play area,
even if it's in a large room.
This is very similar to when parents are providing play sessions with their own kids
while participating in CPRT.
(14:02):
They sometimes are in the living room,
sometimes they're in the kitchen,
sometimes they're in a bedroom,
but you have to have a definable boundary of the play area
and off of that boundary is off limits.
So if it were me,
even though you're in a massive room with a huge library
in the midst of it all,
I would set up a very clear boundary of the play area
(14:24):
and the limits are only
that
the play time is for that specific area
that would eliminate the shelves,
the fire alarms,
the ceiling,
all of the things that you're describing because he
doesn't have free reign over the entire library area.
And then also,
what you're describing is dysregulation.
(14:45):
I know this is not part of your question,
but I want to kind of reassure and normalize a little bit here.
He's just a disregulated seven year old,
and he's testing boundaries,
and he doesn't have self-control,
and he doesn't have emotional vocabulary.
So when we look at what he's doing,
first of all,
it's expected.
This is standard behavior.
(15:06):
Second of all,
when he reacts to the limits,
that's also expected
because I guarantee you no one in his life has ever set limits
in this manner with him before.
My gut tells me
one of two things is his reality.
Either he
has created an environment where everyone walks around on eggshells around him,
and he just gets to rule the roost and do whatever he wants because
(15:28):
no one will stand up for him because they're scared of his reactions,
or
He has
very,
very high expectations and
they control his behavior for him when he doesn't match up.
In other words,
they would just rip the stick out of his hand.
They would just send him to his room,
they would just spank him or punish him or ground him or,
(15:51):
you know,
whatever the,
the approach is,
but essentially what he's learned is I don't have to control my own behavior.
Someone else will always step in and control it for me.
And or
I just get to do whatever I want because I just have to
escalate and ramp up and everyone always is scared and gives in.
So you providing limits in this neutral child-centered way,
(16:12):
it's completely foreign to him.
So he's testing you,
he's testing the relationship,
he's testing the limits,
he's testing boundaries,
he's testing all of it.
Why?
Because he has no idea how to self control.
So this is something he's developing,
which is why it's necessary.
So,
I know you're kind of beating yourself up about maybe I'm setting too many limits,
(16:33):
but limits are only needed when they're needed,
and
when they are needed,
they're set neutrally,
and it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing.
So while the boundary,
the play area will help,
he's still going to push boundaries and test limits.
So you're still going to be setting limits with him.
And then he's probably still going to react for a while.
(16:53):
So when you said you chose not to play with the meter stick anymore,
you can try again next week,
and he got angry.
That's because he's disappointed with his choice.
And remember,
the beauty of limit setting
from the child-centered perspective is,
you would have chosen for him to play with the meter stick.
You would always choose for him to play with the meter stick.
(17:14):
He chose not to
because he chose
to hit the ceiling.
And when he said I choose neither,
that's a power struggle.
So we can see how much of this is power struggle.
It all makes sense.
So
standing in front of the shelf to
block him from getting it is absolutely appropriate
because while you're doing so you're constantly reminding,
(17:37):
oh,
you really wish that you could get that,
but you chose not to have the meter stick today when you chose to hit it on the ceiling,
you can try again next time.
You're just going to reinforce that over and over again.
So,
you can absolutely provide CCPT in this environment.
You have to hold fast to the model.
You have to remain adherent with when we set limits and how we set limits.
(17:58):
But I would also structure the environment as much as possible.
So that you have a more
controllable space.
Maybe that means
you set uphoji screens or you pull the
I don't know,
in schools they have those little like room divider
things that are in the track and the ceiling.
Maybe you pull something across,
(18:19):
maybe you put up a shoji screen,
maybe you have a row of tables that separates your play area from the rest of the room.
You just wanna make sure that the environment is as controllable as possible.
And make sure there's a very clear visual boundary,
because as soon as he gets up and tries to leave the blanket,
the quilt,
whatever it is that you have down,
you say,
oh,
you'd really like to go over there,
(18:40):
but our playtime is for on
this space right here.
You can choose to play with all the toys in
most of the ways that you'd like on the blanket.
And then that will mitigate and limit some of the things that he would likely do
otherwise.
So Natalie,
thanks so much for the email.
I hope that you found that helpful and
I know so many of you are in environments like that,
(19:00):
so hopefully that was
something that you all can take with you.
OK,
so now we're moving on to Rob in Arizona,
Rob's emailed before it's good to hear from you again,
Rob,
thank you.
So his question
is about a 17 year old on the spectrum,
presenting very young,
emotionally and
(19:22):
just maturation.
And so,
he's curious about
whether or not CCPT would be helpful.
So let me read parts of this,
and then we'll dive in.
I can't thank you enough for the podcast and
the insight and guidance you've provided to me.
You've become a vital mentor and person I look up to in this field.
(19:42):
Thank you,
Rob.
I appreciate that.
I have a unique case.
I have a 17 year old on the spectrum with intellectual
and cognitive delays where he presents closer to a 7-year-old emotionally,
and it is clear abstract reasoning is not present based on what I've seen.
I've seen him 3 times
and also what the Guardian reports at home.
He struggles with impulse control,
self-esteem,
(20:02):
and emotional regulation.
And has worked with several therapists in the past to no avail.
Generally they've done DBT,
CBT,
and various other top down therapies.
I'm not surprised there's been
very little progress.
I know you generally focus on working with children 3 to 14,
but I think this child would be a good fit
for the play therapy to provide space for empowerment,
(20:23):
self-actualization,
practice choice making,
emotion tracking,
and developing a sense of trust with someone who is delighted to be with him.
Any insight to support this kid would be very helpful as
this is a case that has challenged me a bit.
I feel like a different approach is necessary
as he struggled to find his way in therapy with
approaches that do not meet him where he is.
OK,
(20:43):
so I love this question actually,
Rob,
thank you.
The beauty of CCPT is that it works with
whole life span.
There are plenty of studies that show this works with adults,
the geriatrics,
with
every scenario,
every age,
every,
everything,
it is just universally well received.
(21:04):
Why?
Because
it's based on Rogers.
And it's based on relationship
and it's based on
the environment and the person
that allows the scenario for a person to become a better version of themselves.
One of the things that we often consider
when doing CCPT specifically with children
is where they are developmentally
(21:26):
and emotionally because
chronological age
is often not reflective of where the child is.
You might have a 10 year old that presents 14.
And you might have a 14 year old that presents 10.
So this is far less about the number,
as it is where the child is,
just in the realm of maturing.
(21:49):
So
this specific child
on the spectrum and with delays
presenting like a seven year old,
this would be an ideal fit
for this child.
Now,
obviously 17 year old is going to
be
very different in a playroom.
But
(22:09):
it's still going to meet him where he is,
and if he is indeed around 7 emotionally and he doesn't have abstract reasoning,
can you imagine how frustrating it would be for
him and the therapist and caregivers and everyone involved
to try to do CBT
because he's 17,
almost an adult,
so CBT should be ideal,
(22:32):
not if the child's on the spectrum with intellectual and cognitive delays.
We know that
neurodivergent
people,
their brains are just wired differently,
they process information differently.
We know if there's delays of any kind,
it puts them behind
the standards for childhood development.
(22:53):
And we know that we've already had other therapies,
and they haven't worked.
So,
I would argue that CCPT is an ideal fit,
just maybe,
I mean,
for so many reasons,
but if we're gonna whittle it down to one,
just maybe in the fact
that you mentioned it already,
he's gonna be with someone who delights in him.
(23:14):
I can imagine that this kid has very few or maybe no one
in this world.
That delights in him.
Why?
Because he doesn't check boxes.
He doesn't act like a 17 year old,
he doesn't talk like a 17 year old.
He doesn't think like a 17 year old.
He's on the spectrum.
He doesn't understand emotions,
he doesn't interact with people
(23:35):
in a,
in a standard way.
I guarantee you there are just nothing but expectations for this kid
all day every day,
and guess what,
he feels like he always fails.
Like he never measures up.
And
if he's presenting a 7.
Can you imagine
how frustrating it must be for him.
To really not be able
(23:58):
to make sense of his world
the way he's expected to,
we see this in kids
that
don't fit standards.
Here's what I mean.
If you have a really big kid
for their age,
at any age in development,
it can be a really big 4 year old,
a really big eight year old,
a really big 12 year old doesn't matter.
If you have a kid that's really big for their age.
(24:18):
They
have difficulty.
Because they don't quote fit in.
Expectations are different,
standards are different,
they present differently,
so people receive them differently.
Same thing when kids are really tiny.
Few of the tiniest,
smallest,
frailest little kid according to peers,
(24:39):
struggles.
You have a kid that's super,
super mature,
struggles.
You have a kid that's super immature struggles.
You have a kid that's super
Athletic.
Way far beyond
other peers struggles.
You have a kid that's super musical,
way far beyond peers struggles.
Why?
(24:59):
Because everything in this world
is dictated by,
I need to categorize you
and you need to just be in with the fray.
And you need to just kind of
be a part of
what the standards are.
So this is true universally for kids
when they don't fit the box and when it's not easy to categorize them,
(25:22):
they struggle for a variety of reasons which I don't have time to get into,
but
we know that that's a difficulty anyway.
This kid has so many reasons why this would be tricky.
So Rob,
I'm very much supportive and in favor of CCPT.
I think he will thrive.
I think he will really truly feel seen and heard and understood,
(25:43):
probably something he rarely,
if ever,
feels.
And you know,
look,
the truth will be in
the outcomes,
but I really highly anticipate what we know
to be true for universal outcomes will emerge.
This kid will really find a sense of who he is.
He will become a better version of himself
and.
You know,
we'll see evidence of CCPT in its glory.
(26:07):
So
I very much think that would be a helpful fit,
Rob,
and I'm so glad that you emailed about that.
All right,
and last but not least,
I want to cover a question from Lexi in Minnesota.
And this is about
ending the session
and how they kind of provide choices at the end
(26:28):
and then
a little quick blip on
the room wreck episode scenario she referenced that she listened to before.
We allow kids to choose one sticker or one tattoo every session at the end,
our equivalent of you doing a snack,
I imagine.
This kid in session has taken more than 2 balloons,
which is the limit 1 or 2.
(26:48):
He has tried to sneak more than 1 sticker at the end.
The last 2 weeks he stayed in the lobby basically sleeping.
When I woke him up this time,
he thought for a while and asked if he could pick 0 stickers today
and 2 next time.
I responded,
you're wondering if it's OK,
and waited to see what he would do.
He seemed annoyed that I didn't answer or agree and walked out.
(27:09):
My internal internal thoughts,
is that OK?
No,
I should keep it consistent.
The end of the session rule should stay the same because it would be hard
for me to track each week how many stickers he has accumulated if this continues,
and he has inconsistency at home,
or he can remind me
his responsibility versus me tracking and he's learning to delay gratification.
(27:31):
Would you ever offer a kid 2 snacks if they asked
for 01 week so they could have 2 the next?
OK,
this makes me happy because,
yes,
this has absolutely happened at my center and yes,
I've absolutely
been OK with that.
So let's talk through this.
I completely understand,
Lexi,
why you are saying,
my question is,
should I keep it consistent
(27:52):
and it would be too difficult for me to manage and
things are inconsistent for him at home blah blah blah blah.
OK.
But here's what
our adult cognitive intellectual rational brain is usually not aware of.
This is emotional for this kid.
So I do think it's probably a little bit of power and control,
but I think it's a little bit of limit
(28:14):
testing maybe as well.
But
here's what I think is going on.
He is actually finding a clever solution
to
complying with the limit.
He has never liked the fact that he can't take more than what he wants,
or sorry,
more than what he can choose.
He always wants more.
So the option is one sticker or one tattoo and he wants 2.
(28:37):
So emotionally,
this rule feels arbitrary to him.
This rule feels frustrating to him.
He's not asking you for 4.
He's asking you for 1 per week,
but split up
over 2 weeks by taking none 1 week and 2 the next.
This is creative and clever problem solving.
(28:58):
And I don't know that this is in any book.
I don't know that this is in any text,
but I have always believed.
That if a child comes up with a clever,
creative way
to comply with the limit,
even if it seems a little bit out of the box,
even if it seems something that I would not have thought of myself,
as long as the child is demonstrating compliance to the limit.
(29:21):
That is always a choice,
in my opinion.
So I very much have had kids say,
if I choose 0 snacks this week,
then does that mean that I get to choose 2 next week?
And here's my response.
Oh,
you're wondering about changing snacks today versus next time.
You know that you choose one each week.
So you could choose one this week and one next week,
(29:44):
but if you choose 0 today,
you can choose 2 next week because that's still 2 snacks in 2 weeks.
And notice that
it's actually the child's way of finding a way to get needs met,
because this kid desperately wants two things to take home for whatever reason.
So he's figuring out a workaround,
(30:06):
but it's still within compliance.
So let me go back to your original thought.
Should I keep it consistent?
Should the rules stay the same?
because it would be hard for me to track?
OK,
I'm gonna talk about the tracking in a second,
but I would absolutely
remain adherent and consistent with the limit if he was trying to break the limit.
But in this scenario,
he is not.
(30:26):
He's actually complying with the limit.
He's just waiting for two weeks to take two things.
So,
I've always been in favor of that,
and I think that that's really helpful.
Now,
to speak to your point of it would be hard for you to track and keep,
keep the accumulation of the numbers,
etc.
etc.
This is where you absolutely make it a choice.
(30:46):
So you said,
oh,
so you're choosing to take no snacks this week.
And you're choosing to take 2 snacks next week.
If you choose to take
0 this week and 2 next week,
you choose to remind me
that you chose 0 last week and that you're choosing to take 2 next
week because I might not remember because I usually give 1 each week.
(31:07):
So you're going to have to remind me.
Now there's buy-in,
there's ownership,
there's responsibility,
it's off your brain,
it's off your burden,
you no longer have to think about it.
And it obviously matters to this kid or he wouldn't be proposing this scenario.
So it will matter enough that he will remind you,
and he will.
He'll come in next week and he'll say,
(31:29):
Remember,
Ms.
Brenna,
I didn't take any snacks last week and I'm choosing to have,
or in your case,
stickers,
I guess.
I didn't take any stickers last week,
so I'm choosing to have 2 today.
And you're going to say,
oh,
you remember to remind me,
you,
you chose 0 last week,
so you're choosing 2 today.
And that's the most helpful way to handle that on both of your sides.
(31:50):
OK,
glad we talked about that.
And then finally,
quick refresher following your recent stuck in room wreck episode.
If the child chose to help clean up
because they dumped all the bins and didn't play with any toys,
and then it comes to the end of the session
and you remind them of their choice to help clean up
and they just walk out of the session,
how would you respond?
And then if they choose no snack and walk out of the office,
(32:12):
what do you do that session and next?
OK,
I'm,
I'm a little confused about the choosing no snack scenario,
so I'm not going to respond to that.
But as far as the,
how do you remind them of
the choice that they made?
So at the 5 minute mark,
you say,
OK,
child's name,
we have 5 minutes left,
and you chose to help me clean up because you
(32:34):
chose to put toys on the floor without using them.
So you can choose to clean up what you choose to clean up for the next
time that we have together,
remaining time we have together.
Now,
I'm gonna be really clear,
sometimes kids will move like 4 things.
So
they,
they really don't like the notion of cleaning up and they're probably
going to power and control struggle with it a little bit.
(32:57):
So you can't have really high expectations that
they're actually going to clean the whole room.
But you just at the 5 minute mark,
let them know.
We have 5 minutes left and you chose to help me clean up because you chose to
put the toys on the floor and not play with them.
And then you give them choices about what they choose to clean.
So,
you can choose to clean up the Legos,
or you can choose to clean up the Lincoln logs,
(33:19):
or you can choose to clean up something else.
And then you just continue to remind them and encourage them for those 5 minutes
that they've chosen to clean.
And if they're refusing,
you say,
oh,
you really wish that you would have chosen not to clean,
but when you chose to put the toys on the floor without using them,
you chose to help me clean up and it's time to clean up.
So you just are constantly reinforcing the choice that was made.
(33:41):
Now,
you can't physically insist that a child cleans up
and sometimes they really don't help a whole lot.
But the goal is not really that they help clean up.
The goal is that they learn to self-control and self-regulate,
so you have to kind of keep the intention in mind.
It's not so much about them cleaning,
it's about them realizing that if they choose to room wreck for 567 sessions in a row,
(34:04):
they're choosing to at least assume a little
bit of the responsibility for the clean up
and that sometimes will help them get unstuck in that scenario.
All right,
y'all,
thank you so much for all the questions.
I mean,
I like doing mini lightning rounds.
Those are fun.
So if you have other questions you'd like to ask,
shoot me an email brenna@thekidcounselor.com.
I love y'all.
We'll talk again soon.
Bye.
(34:25):
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
Brenna Hicks.
For more episodes and resources,
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.
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