In this episode, I answer a question from Laura, a grad student in Canada who’s navigating how to stay fully adherent to the CCPT model during dramatic play—especially when a child assigns her a role and expects her to act it out. I walk through how we maintain a reflective stance even in highly structured, imaginative play by using techniques like whispering, wondering, and deflecting responsibility back to the child.
I also share how to handle situations when children try to reverse roles or assign the therapist decision-making power. These moments are rich with therapeutic potential—but only if we stay rooted in the model. From session one, we set the tone by never taking the lead, never making decisions, and always allowing the child’s cues to guide the play. This episode will help you confidently navigate dramatic play scenarios without ever stepping outside the CCPT framework.
PlayTherapyNow.com is my HUB for everything I do! playtherapynow.com. Sign up for my email newsletter, stay ahead with the latest CCPT CEU courses, personalized coaching opportunities and other opportunities you need to thrive in your CCPT practice. If you click one link in these show notes, this is the one to click!
If you would like to ask me questions directly, check out www.ccptcollective.com, where I host two weekly Zoom calls filled with advanced CCPT case studies and session reviews, as well as member Q&A. You can take advantage of the two-week free trial to see if the CCPT Collective is right for you.
Ask Me Questions: Call (813) 812-5525, or email: brenna@thekidcounselor.com
Brenna's CCPT Hub: https://www.playtherapynow.com
CCPT Collective (online community exclusively for CCPTs): https://www.ccptcollective.com
Podcast HQ: https://www.playtherapypodcast.com
APT Approved Play Therapy CE courses: https://childcenteredtraining.com
Twitter: @thekidcounselor https://twitter.com/thekidcounselor
Facebook: https://facebook.com/playtherapypodcast
Common References:
Cochran, N., Nordling, W., & Cochran, J. (2010). Child-Centered Play Therapy (1st ed.). Wiley.
VanFleet, R., Sywulak, A. E., & Sniscak, C. C. (2010). Child-centered play therapy. Guilford Press.
Landreth, G.L. (2023). Play Therapy: The Art of the Relationship (4th ed.). Routledge.
Bratton, S. C., Landreth, G. L., Kellam, T., & Blackard, S. R. (2006). Child parent relationship therapy (CPRT) treatment manual: A 10-session filial therapy model for training parents. Routledge/Taylor & Francis Group.
Benedict, Helen. Themes in Play Therapy. Used with permission to Heartland Play Therapy Institute.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
a master class in child-centered play therapy
and practical support and application for your
work with children and their families.
In today's episode,
I am answering a question from Laura in Canada,
(00:23):
and Laura is a grad student,
and in the last couple of months of her practicum,
And she is at a site,
oh my,
what a gift,
with a fully equipped playroom
and is learning alongside child clients
as well as supervis and sorry,
gosh,
as well as therapists and supervisors trained in CCPT.
(00:46):
What a blessing,
Laura
I wish everyone had that experience.
So that's something to celebrate for sure.
Her background is in education and teaching experience
was always in a play-based program.
So discovering CCPT has been really meaningful,
and she said that it feels like home,
which I know so many of us have said those words and felt those words.
(01:07):
So
very much understand that idea.
So her question is about dramatic play specifically
when kids have you kind of participating in drama,
so you are in a role and you are supposed to participate in the child's
cues,
what that looks like.
So we'll dive in,
we'll read a little bit about this,
(01:28):
but before I get into that,
I wanted to give you all a little housekeeping update.
I just was informed
that the
Process or the requirements I suppose for RPT credentials have changed
as of
today as a matter of fact,
April 1st
was when this all switched over.
(01:50):
They have now changed the 150 hours
and how you can break down those training hours.
So as of today,
April 1st,
they are requiring 75 face to face hours
and 75
non-contact or virtual hours.
So I just wanted to let you know I'm aware of that.
(02:11):
And
you,
many of you know that I've said I'm working diligently on
providing every CCPT a path toward RPT exclusively in CCPT CEUs.
So that has changed things a little bit because where it used to have different
ratios of how you could get your hours,
now it's a fifty-fifty split.
(02:33):
So here's my commitment and here's my question.
We will
switch our plans a little bit.
We will accommodate the new rules,
and we will do everything in our power to provide you with all 150 hours
in CCPT exclusive training
so that you're not taking all kinds of theories,
all kinds of models just to get your hours.
(02:54):
No one should have to do that if you're fully adherent to a model.
So that is 100% our commitment to you.
Corwell is fully on board.
We are fully on board.
We are going to figure out how to make this work.
The 75 non-contact hours will come easy.
I can just continue to do
the workshops and the trainings,
but the live hours are going to be a little bit different.
(03:14):
So that's my commitment.
Here's my question.
Please shoot me an email,
brenna@thekidcounselor.com.
And or if you're in the Collective or if you're in one of my coaching programs,
you can message me.
Please let me know
what level of interest or desire
or feasibility
(03:35):
you have
to attend
a live conference weekend.
In Florida with me.
So if I put together a Tampa-based
12-15,
some odd hours,
you know,
every quarter or twice a year
or something like that
in CCPT,
(03:55):
would you come to Florida?
Would you hang out with me in Tampa,
and would you be willing to get your
live contact hours if Corwell and The Kid Counselor partnered
for live in-person events in Florida?
And if there's enough interest and enough people would be
willing to come to Florida and do live training,
Corwell is open to extending this to other areas of the country.
(04:20):
So we've already been talking about New England,
we've already been talking about a couple other locations.
So I think Florida will be the pilot test.
But if you all are interested and you want your hours and you want to hang out with me,
look,
Florida's not a hard sell,
OK?
We hit 90 today.
For all of you in frigid spring temperatures where there's still snow falling,
(04:40):
please know we hit 90 today
and the beach is lovely.
Clearwater Beach is just down the road from Tampa,
one of the top 10 beaches in the world every year,
hundreds of years running.
Powder white sand,
oh my gosh,
it's lovely.
Anyway,
The point is
I'm,
it's not,
I don't have to convince you to come to Florida.
I understand,
but will you come
(05:02):
to do
live in person CEU training toward your RPT?
So please email me,
let me know if you would be interested.
This is kind of our pilot test.
I'm gonna throw this out in the Collective and in
the coaching programs as well and in the newsletter.
So I'm gonna try to get all kinds of response,
see where we are,
and then we would likely expand that to other areas of the
country if this is something that you all want to do.
(05:24):
OK,
so that's my housekeeping stuff.
So now we'll dive back into Laura's question.
So she says,
my question is about dramatic play.
I have a few children who often choose to engage in this style of play,
and I'm used to following children's leads,
tracking their actions,
and allowing them to direct the roles.
However,
in my previous work,
I also integrated additional elements such as modeling and encouraging language,
(05:48):
extending play,
supporting social emotional goals like sharing and turn taking,
which is an obviously very different lens compared to CCPT.
I'm sure you can hear and predict my growth edge here.
Yes,
I get it,
Laura.
I'm still working on staying in a reflective
role using tracking rather than directing or expanding play
and being mindful to minimize questions or problem solving for the child.
(06:10):
I feel comfortable with this style of play,
being playful and following their lead.
But where sometimes I get stuck is when a child assigns me
a specific role and expects me to fully act it out.
Once we hear from the child what our role is and how they want us to play it out,
for example,
a misbehaving baby,
how do we stay adherent to CCPT while actively participating in the play,
(06:32):
such as restaurant house,
puppets,
etc.
I wonder if you could speak to how you engage
in this type of play while remaining aligned with CCPT.
I think where I struggle is finding the balance between embodying the character's
role and still maintaining my reflective stance and presence as a therapist.
For example,
I have a child who every session wants to create missions for me to complete,
(06:53):
and he has stated that I have to make the decisions so that he can judge.
He decides if I fail or succeed,
and then he determines the outcome.
He will request that I play a specific character and tell me how to act,
but once I'm in that role,
I get in my head about what I'm doing.
I truly appreciate any insights that you can offer.
(07:13):
OK,
thank you for the question,
Laura.
That's actually a really helpful thing for us to discuss.
OK,
so
let's kind of unpack this and dive deep one layer at a time.
I 100% agree with you with your education background and all different
kinds of agenda and directives and objectives in your earlier work.
(07:34):
I can see how this would actually be quite challenging.
It is very challenging for almost everyone that
has come out of the education system.
I was on a coaching call this morning and we were discussing.
In my
work when I was in the school system,
this and this and this so it is a huge deviation and a very big mindset shift.
It's almost like rewiring your brain to
(07:55):
speak and act and think completely differently
so work in progress,
of course,
but the fact that you're aware of it and you're
trying to remain adherent,
that will get you there.
OK,
so
you're trying to stay reflective,
tracking rather than directing,
etc.
yes,
that's absolutely what we wanna do.
So once we hear from the child what our role is and how they want us to play it out,
(08:18):
for example,
misbehaving baby,
how do we stay adhering to CCPT?
OK,
so
this is established
from session one
and I actually don't bring this up very often,
but this is an ideal scenario to make sense of this.
So thank you,
Laura.
I really appreciate it.
We need to understand that we set the tone and the expectations,
(08:39):
the very first session that a child walks in.
So if from the very beginning,
every time a child
tells you to do something,
asks you to do something,
ask you what something is,
ask you what something's called,
asks you to guess,
ask you to choose,
asks you to do whatever,
if your every single time consistent response
(09:01):
is a returning of responsibility.
A deflection of the answer.
Or a whisper or an I wonder.
The child learns from the very first session with you
that you're never going to take initiative to
do anything and therefore they adjust accordingly.
It is far more difficult
(09:22):
if that is not established early on
to then try to backtrack that.
So I think my suggestion first and foremost is it
has to be very clear from the very first session
that we are never going to make decisions we're never going to take
initiative we're never going to have
answers we're never going to provide information
(09:42):
if that is established that will remain consistent in
a child's mind and they will fight it less
so I think that's really helpful to just start there.
So if you are told to be a quote misbehaving baby.
That is
subjective.
So while the child has said,
you're supposed to be a misbehaving baby,
(10:03):
that is a cue.
But it is not complete enough for us to know how to be a misbehaving baby
because my view of misbehaving baby is different than yours,
Laura it's different than the child's and it's different for
every single listener of this entire podcast all across the world
because what I view,
misbehaving baby behavior is going to be very different than everyone else's.
(10:25):
So just because we've been told you have to be a quote bad baby.
Your immediate response is,
hmm,
I don't know how a misbehaving baby acts.
Or
I'm not sure what a misbehaving baby does.
I'm not sure.
I don't know.
I'm confused.
(10:46):
Those are really helpful segues.
Because you're not necessarily saying what do I do,
which you can't if you're going to whisper.
The whisper technique is used for that reason.
It's that conspiratorial tone like,
hey,
I need your help.
I need you to get me on board here.
What is the misbehaving baby do?
OK,
that would be a really helpful whisper technique.
(11:07):
You can also wonder that.
I wonder what I'm supposed to do if I'm a misbehaving baby.
All right,
so you have whisper technique you have wonder technique,
but if you're not gonna use one of those,
if you say I'm not sure,
I don't know,
I'm confused,
kids love to be in the role of expert
kids love to be in the role of educator.
(11:29):
So when you feign ignorance,
when you feign confusion,
when you say I just don't know,
they almost always will give you more cues and if those cues aren't enough,
then you ask for another cue.
Without asking because if we know enough to ask a question,
we don't have to make a statement.
So
we get more information by use of whisper,
(11:49):
Wonder,
or I'm not sure.
So let's say he says,
OK,
you're gonna be a misbehaving baby.
You're gonna say,
oh,
I don't know how a misbehaving baby acts.
He
cries a lot.
Oh.
I wonder what kind of cry a misbehaving baby makes.
See how you're constantly drilling down because you could go waaaaa,
(12:13):
and that may not be at all what the child has in mind for a misbehaving baby's cry.
So you're going to constantly get more information
until you feel that you have very clear cues
of what you're supposed to do.
Then at that point
you make a statement that confirms,
OK,
so I'm a misbehaving baby
(12:35):
and I have a loud angry cry
and I have to keep saying
I don't want to.
And then the baby and then the child goes,
yeah.
So then you go,
I don't want.
Oh,
because you were given very direct cues of how that
looks and what that sounds like and what to do.
(12:57):
So I think where you're getting stuck in your head,
Laura,
is you're trying to figure out how much liberty you can take with this.
You know,
do I just
kind of go with it?
Do I just kind of roll?
Do I just kind of like play a
play a part here?
No to all of the above.
You are always waiting for very clear cues and directives,
so you know exactly what the child has in mind,
(13:19):
and I tell this story all the time.
I was early,
early on in working with a little girl,
and she tells me first time she collaboratively played with me.
She invited me to play.
She says,
come over here and play dollhouse with me.
She hands me a figure,
says,
I'm the mom,
and she's gonna be the girl,
and she says,
OK,
so be the mom.
And I said,
I'm not sure what the mom says or does.
(13:41):
Now,
that's
the lead in to the most significant piece of this.
I am a mom.
I've been a mom for 15.5 years.
I have been a CCPT mom
for the entirety of my son's life.
He has only ever known child-centered play therapy as a parenting approach.
(14:03):
I work diligently and I pray for God's help every single day
to be
kind and patient and understanding and validating and gracious and forgiving
and loving and all the things that I want to be,
all the things that I want my son when he's an adult.
to say about me when someone says,
what was your mom like growing up?
(14:25):
Every day that's my aspiration,
and every day I ask God for the strength to do it.
So my view of being the mom
in that session with that little girl.
Was
kind and patient and loving and gentle
because that's who I try to be.
And when I said I'm not sure what the mom says or does.
(14:46):
And she goes,
get in your room right now.
You're grounded.
did that take the wind out of me
because I would have never,
never.
Said that in play if it was up to me,
never.
I wouldn't have yelled I wouldn't have been angry.
I wouldn't have had that tone.
I wouldn't have threatened.
(15:07):
I wouldn't,
I wouldn't have done any of it.
I hated playing that role.
But that was her view of mom.
So if we don't have the cue,
we should not make leaps and take liberties because it undermines what
the child is actually trying to do and what the child needs.
She needed to play out getting yelled at.
(15:28):
She needed to play out
an aggressive
and angry mom.
She needed to play out that kind of power differential.
She needed to do all kinds of things through that play
and as much as it sickened me.
I couldn't be the mom I wanted the mom to be.
I had to be the mom she needed the mom to be.
So Laura,
don't get caught up in trying to figure out what you need to do in the role.
(15:53):
Get caught up in figuring out exactly what the
role is intended to be through the child's eyes.
That's gonna be a really helpful piece of this.
And then finally.
You said you have a child every session that
wants to create missions for you to complete,
and he has stated that you have to make the decisions for him to judge.
So he decides if you fail or succeed and determines the outcome.
All right,
(16:13):
that's actually really fun and that's so power and control hungry.
It's so role reversal.
There,
there's so much going on there in the dynamic of that play.
That's super exciting,
but.
When he says that
you have to make decisions for him to judge.
Hmm,
I'm not sure what decision you would want me to make.
That's your ninja trick.
(16:35):
OK.
I talked about this in the coaching several times,
but I don't know if I've ever said it on the podcast.
So not,
I'm not sure what I should do.
That's very different.
I'm not sure what decision you would have me make.
Or I'm not sure what activity you would have me do.
Now all of a sudden it's not you don't know what to do,
(16:58):
you don't know what he would want you to do.
And that necessitates him giving you a cue.
So how do you spell this?
Oh,
after you give it like 3 rounds of returning responsibility and oh,
you're not really sure how to spell that,
you,
you would really like me to tell you,
but you can decide when you go 3 rounds of
that and they won't give in and they won't concede,
(17:20):
then your go to is
I'm not sure how you would spell that word.
Notice that that's truthful.
Don't lie to your kids and play sessions.
When a kid says what's 4 + 2,
don't say you don't know.
That's a bald face lie,
you do know,
I hope.
I know we're,
I know we're not stellar mathematicians if we go into therapy,
but I'm gonna hope that you know 4 + 2,
(17:42):
OK?
So
don't say I don't know.
We're supposed to feign ignorance,
sure,
but don't lie to your kids.
That fractures relationship and it betrays trust.
But
I don't know what you think 4 + 2 is.
That's a truthful statement,
and it's a workaround for when a kid is trying to get you
(18:04):
to take charge or to give an answer or to figure something out.
So when he says
you have to do missions and you have to decide what
you're,
what you're supposed to do,
oh,
I'm not sure what you would have me do.
Huh,
you really want me to decide,
but I,
I don't know what you would have in mind.
(18:24):
And if you keep down that road enough times,
the child will give in and go,
OK,
I just want you to jump,
or,
OK,
I just want you to leap onto Bobo,
or OK,
I want you to blah,
oh,
OK,
so my mission is to leap on Bobo,
and then you leap on Bobo,
then he decides whether you passed or failed,
and then it was fully adherent to the model.
(18:44):
So Laura,
I hope that's helpful.
I hope that's helpful for all of you.
The Ninja tricks really are effective,
so hopefully you can kind of file those away in your toolbox.
And
obviously,
you know,
the more adherent we are,
the better the gains are for kids.
So these discussions are important and so thank you
so much for the emails that you all send.
All right.
(19:05):
It was lovely to be with you.
Thanks for hanging out with me.
I love y'all.
We'll talk again soon.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
Brenna Hicks.
For more episodes and resources,
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
a master class in child-centered play therapy
and practical support and application for your
work with children and their families.
In today's episode,
I am answering a question from Laura in Canada,
(00:23):
and Laura is a grad student,
and in the last couple of months of her practicum,
And she is at a site,
oh my,
what a gift,
with a fully equipped playroom
and is learning alongside child clients
as well as supervis and sorry,
gosh,
as well as therapists and supervisors trained in CCPT.
(00:46):
What a blessing,
Laura
I wish everyone had that experience.
So that's something to celebrate for sure.
Her background is in education and teaching experience
was always in a play-based program.
So discovering CCPT has been really meaningful,
and she said that it feels like home,
which I know so many of us have said those words and felt those words.
(01:07):
So
very much understand that idea.
So her question is about dramatic play specifically
when kids have you kind of participating in drama,
so you are in a role and you are supposed to participate in the child's
cues,
what that looks like.
So we'll dive in,
we'll read a little bit about this,
(01:28):
but before I get into that,
I wanted to give you all a little housekeeping update.
I just was informed
that the
Process or the requirements I suppose for RPT credentials have changed
as of
today as a matter of fact,
April 1st
was when this all switched over.
(01:50):
They have now changed the 150 hours
and how you can break down those training hours.
So as of today,
April 1st,
they are requiring 75 face to face hours
and 75
non-contact or virtual hours.
So I just wanted to let you know I'm aware of that.
(02:11):
And
you,
many of you know that I've said I'm working diligently on
providing every CCPT a path toward RPT exclusively in CCPT CEUs.
So that has changed things a little bit because where it used to have different
ratios of how you could get your hours,
now it's a fifty-fifty split.
(02:33):
So here's my commitment and here's my question.
We will
switch our plans a little bit.
We will accommodate the new rules,
and we will do everything in our power to provide you with all 150 hours
in CCPT exclusive training
so that you're not taking all kinds of theories,
all kinds of models just to get your hours.
(02:54):
No one should have to do that if you're fully adherent to a model.
So that is 100% our commitment to you.
Corwell is fully on board.
We are fully on board.
We are going to figure out how to make this work.
The 75 non-contact hours will come easy.
I can just continue to do
the workshops and the trainings,
but the live hours are going to be a little bit different.
(03:14):
So that's my commitment.
Here's my question.
Please shoot me an email,
brenna@thekidcounselor.com.
And or if you're in the Collective or if you're in one of my coaching programs,
you can message me.
Please let me know
what level of interest or desire
or feasibility
(03:35):
you have
to attend
a live conference weekend.
In Florida with me.
So if I put together a Tampa-based
12-15,
some odd hours,
you know,
every quarter or twice a year
or something like that
in CCPT,
(03:55):
would you come to Florida?
Would you hang out with me in Tampa,
and would you be willing to get your
live contact hours if Corwell and The Kid Counselor partnered
for live in-person events in Florida?
And if there's enough interest and enough people would be
willing to come to Florida and do live training,
Corwell is open to extending this to other areas of the country.
(04:20):
So we've already been talking about New England,
we've already been talking about a couple other locations.
So I think Florida will be the pilot test.
But if you all are interested and you want your hours and you want to hang out with me,
look,
Florida's not a hard sell,
OK?
We hit 90 today.
For all of you in frigid spring temperatures where there's still snow falling,
(04:40):
please know we hit 90 today
and the beach is lovely.
Clearwater Beach is just down the road from Tampa,
one of the top 10 beaches in the world every year,
hundreds of years running.
Powder white sand,
oh my gosh,
it's lovely.
Anyway,
The point is
I'm,
it's not,
I don't have to convince you to come to Florida.
I understand,
but will you come
(05:02):
to do
live in person CEU training toward your RPT?
So please email me,
let me know if you would be interested.
This is kind of our pilot test.
I'm gonna throw this out in the Collective and in
the coaching programs as well and in the newsletter.
So I'm gonna try to get all kinds of response,
see where we are,
and then we would likely expand that to other areas of the
country if this is something that you all want to do.
(05:24):
OK,
so that's my housekeeping stuff.
So now we'll dive back into Laura's question.
So she says,
my question is about dramatic play.
I have a few children who often choose to engage in this style of play,
and I'm used to following children's leads,
tracking their actions,
and allowing them to direct the roles.
However,
in my previous work,
I also integrated additional elements such as modeling and encouraging language,
(05:48):
extending play,
supporting social emotional goals like sharing and turn taking,
which is an obviously very different lens compared to CCPT.
I'm sure you can hear and predict my growth edge here.
Yes,
I get it,
Laura.
I'm still working on staying in a reflective
role using tracking rather than directing or expanding play
and being mindful to minimize questions or problem solving for the child.
(06:10):
I feel comfortable with this style of play,
being playful and following their lead.
But where sometimes I get stuck is when a child assigns me
a specific role and expects me to fully act it out.
Once we hear from the child what our role is and how they want us to play it out,
for example,
a misbehaving baby,
how do we stay adherent to CCPT while actively participating in the play,
(06:32):
such as restaurant house,
puppets,
etc.
I wonder if you could speak to how you engage
in this type of play while remaining aligned with CCPT.
I think where I struggle is finding the balance between embodying the character's
role and still maintaining my reflective stance and presence as a therapist.
For example,
I have a child who every session wants to create missions for me to complete,
(06:53):
and he has stated that I have to make the decisions so that he can judge.
He decides if I fail or succeed,
and then he determines the outcome.
He will request that I play a specific character and tell me how to act,
but once I'm in that role,
I get in my head about what I'm doing.
I truly appreciate any insights that you can offer.
(07:13):
OK,
thank you for the question,
Laura.
That's actually a really helpful thing for us to discuss.
OK,
so
let's kind of unpack this and dive deep one layer at a time.
I 100% agree with you with your education background and all different
kinds of agenda and directives and objectives in your earlier work.
(07:34):
I can see how this would actually be quite challenging.
It is very challenging for almost everyone that
has come out of the education system.
I was on a coaching call this morning and we were discussing.
In my
work when I was in the school system,
this and this and this so it is a huge deviation and a very big mindset shift.
It's almost like rewiring your brain to
(07:55):
speak and act and think completely differently
so work in progress,
of course,
but the fact that you're aware of it and you're
trying to remain adherent,
that will get you there.
OK,
so
you're trying to stay reflective,
tracking rather than directing,
etc.
yes,
that's absolutely what we wanna do.
So once we hear from the child what our role is and how they want us to play it out,
(08:18):
for example,
misbehaving baby,
how do we stay adhering to CCPT?
OK,
so
this is established
from session one
and I actually don't bring this up very often,
but this is an ideal scenario to make sense of this.
So thank you,
Laura.
I really appreciate it.
We need to understand that we set the tone and the expectations,
(08:39):
the very first session that a child walks in.
So if from the very beginning,
every time a child
tells you to do something,
asks you to do something,
ask you what something is,
ask you what something's called,
asks you to guess,
ask you to choose,
asks you to do whatever,
if your every single time consistent response
(09:01):
is a returning of responsibility.
A deflection of the answer.
Or a whisper or an I wonder.
The child learns from the very first session with you
that you're never going to take initiative to
do anything and therefore they adjust accordingly.
It is far more difficult
(09:22):
if that is not established early on
to then try to backtrack that.
So I think my suggestion first and foremost is it
has to be very clear from the very first session
that we are never going to make decisions we're never going to take
initiative we're never going to have
answers we're never going to provide information
(09:42):
if that is established that will remain consistent in
a child's mind and they will fight it less
so I think that's really helpful to just start there.
So if you are told to be a quote misbehaving baby.
That is
subjective.
So while the child has said,
you're supposed to be a misbehaving baby,
(10:03):
that is a cue.
But it is not complete enough for us to know how to be a misbehaving baby
because my view of misbehaving baby is different than yours,
Laura it's different than the child's and it's different for
every single listener of this entire podcast all across the world
because what I view,
misbehaving baby behavior is going to be very different than everyone else's.
(10:25):
So just because we've been told you have to be a quote bad baby.
Your immediate response is,
hmm,
I don't know how a misbehaving baby acts.
Or
I'm not sure what a misbehaving baby does.
I'm not sure.
I don't know.
I'm confused.
(10:46):
Those are really helpful segues.
Because you're not necessarily saying what do I do,
which you can't if you're going to whisper.
The whisper technique is used for that reason.
It's that conspiratorial tone like,
hey,
I need your help.
I need you to get me on board here.
What is the misbehaving baby do?
OK,
that would be a really helpful whisper technique.
(11:07):
You can also wonder that.
I wonder what I'm supposed to do if I'm a misbehaving baby.
All right,
so you have whisper technique you have wonder technique,
but if you're not gonna use one of those,
if you say I'm not sure,
I don't know,
I'm confused,
kids love to be in the role of expert
kids love to be in the role of educator.
(11:29):
So when you feign ignorance,
when you feign confusion,
when you say I just don't know,
they almost always will give you more cues and if those cues aren't enough,
then you ask for another cue.
Without asking because if we know enough to ask a question,
we don't have to make a statement.
So
we get more information by use of whisper,
(11:49):
Wonder,
or I'm not sure.
So let's say he says,
OK,
you're gonna be a misbehaving baby.
You're gonna say,
oh,
I don't know how a misbehaving baby acts.
He
cries a lot.
Oh.
I wonder what kind of cry a misbehaving baby makes.
See how you're constantly drilling down because you could go waaaaa,
(12:13):
and that may not be at all what the child has in mind for a misbehaving baby's cry.
So you're going to constantly get more information
until you feel that you have very clear cues
of what you're supposed to do.
Then at that point
you make a statement that confirms,
OK,
so I'm a misbehaving baby
(12:35):
and I have a loud angry cry
and I have to keep saying
I don't want to.
And then the baby and then the child goes,
yeah.
So then you go,
I don't want.
Oh,
because you were given very direct cues of how that
looks and what that sounds like and what to do.
(12:57):
So I think where you're getting stuck in your head,
Laura,
is you're trying to figure out how much liberty you can take with this.
You know,
do I just
kind of go with it?
Do I just kind of roll?
Do I just kind of like play a
play a part here?
No to all of the above.
You are always waiting for very clear cues and directives,
so you know exactly what the child has in mind,
(13:19):
and I tell this story all the time.
I was early,
early on in working with a little girl,
and she tells me first time she collaboratively played with me.
She invited me to play.
She says,
come over here and play dollhouse with me.
She hands me a figure,
says,
I'm the mom,
and she's gonna be the girl,
and she says,
OK,
so be the mom.
And I said,
I'm not sure what the mom says or does.
(13:41):
Now,
that's
the lead in to the most significant piece of this.
I am a mom.
I've been a mom for 15.5 years.
I have been a CCPT mom
for the entirety of my son's life.
He has only ever known child-centered play therapy as a parenting approach.
(14:03):
I work diligently and I pray for God's help every single day
to be
kind and patient and understanding and validating and gracious and forgiving
and loving and all the things that I want to be,
all the things that I want my son when he's an adult.
to say about me when someone says,
what was your mom like growing up?
(14:25):
Every day that's my aspiration,
and every day I ask God for the strength to do it.
So my view of being the mom
in that session with that little girl.
Was
kind and patient and loving and gentle
because that's who I try to be.
And when I said I'm not sure what the mom says or does.
(14:46):
And she goes,
get in your room right now.
You're grounded.
did that take the wind out of me
because I would have never,
never.
Said that in play if it was up to me,
never.
I wouldn't have yelled I wouldn't have been angry.
I wouldn't have had that tone.
I wouldn't have threatened.
(15:07):
I wouldn't,
I wouldn't have done any of it.
I hated playing that role.
But that was her view of mom.
So if we don't have the cue,
we should not make leaps and take liberties because it undermines what
the child is actually trying to do and what the child needs.
She needed to play out getting yelled at.
(15:28):
She needed to play out
an aggressive
and angry mom.
She needed to play out that kind of power differential.
She needed to do all kinds of things through that play
and as much as it sickened me.
I couldn't be the mom I wanted the mom to be.
I had to be the mom she needed the mom to be.
So Laura,
don't get caught up in trying to figure out what you need to do in the role.
(15:53):
Get caught up in figuring out exactly what the
role is intended to be through the child's eyes.
That's gonna be a really helpful piece of this.
And then finally.
You said you have a child every session that
wants to create missions for you to complete,
and he has stated that you have to make the decisions for him to judge.
So he decides if you fail or succeed and determines the outcome.
All right,
(16:13):
that's actually really fun and that's so power and control hungry.
It's so role reversal.
There,
there's so much going on there in the dynamic of that play.
That's super exciting,
but.
When he says that
you have to make decisions for him to judge.
Hmm,
I'm not sure what decision you would want me to make.
That's your ninja trick.
(16:35):
OK.
I talked about this in the coaching several times,
but I don't know if I've ever said it on the podcast.
So not,
I'm not sure what I should do.
That's very different.
I'm not sure what decision you would have me make.
Or I'm not sure what activity you would have me do.
Now all of a sudden it's not you don't know what to do,
(16:58):
you don't know what he would want you to do.
And that necessitates him giving you a cue.
So how do you spell this?
Oh,
after you give it like 3 rounds of returning responsibility and oh,
you're not really sure how to spell that,
you,
you would really like me to tell you,
but you can decide when you go 3 rounds of
that and they won't give in and they won't concede,
(17:20):
then your go to is
I'm not sure how you would spell that word.
Notice that that's truthful.
Don't lie to your kids and play sessions.
When a kid says what's 4 + 2,
don't say you don't know.
That's a bald face lie,
you do know,
I hope.
I know we're,
I know we're not stellar mathematicians if we go into therapy,
but I'm gonna hope that you know 4 + 2,
(17:42):
OK?
So
don't say I don't know.
We're supposed to feign ignorance,
sure,
but don't lie to your kids.
That fractures relationship and it betrays trust.
But
I don't know what you think 4 + 2 is.
That's a truthful statement,
and it's a workaround for when a kid is trying to get you
(18:04):
to take charge or to give an answer or to figure something out.
So when he says
you have to do missions and you have to decide what
you're,
what you're supposed to do,
oh,
I'm not sure what you would have me do.
Huh,
you really want me to decide,
but I,
I don't know what you would have in mind.
(18:24):
And if you keep down that road enough times,
the child will give in and go,
OK,
I just want you to jump,
or,
OK,
I just want you to leap onto Bobo,
or OK,
I want you to blah,
oh,
OK,
so my mission is to leap on Bobo,
and then you leap on Bobo,
then he decides whether you passed or failed,
and then it was fully adherent to the model.
(18:44):
So Laura,
I hope that's helpful.
I hope that's helpful for all of you.
The Ninja tricks really are effective,
so hopefully you can kind of file those away in your toolbox.
And
obviously,
you know,
the more adherent we are,
the better the gains are for kids.
So these discussions are important and so thank you
so much for the emails that you all send.
All right.
(19:05):
It was lovely to be with you.
Thanks for hanging out with me.
I love y'all.
We'll talk again soon.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
Brenna Hicks.
For more episodes and resources,
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.
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