In this episode, I offer encouragement and clarity for those of you who feel like you're not where you “should” be in your CCPT journey. If you’ve ever felt behind, inadequate, or unsure if you’re doing it right—you’re not alone. You’re not behind… you’re becoming. I explain why your struggle is not a sign of failure—it’s evidence of growth. Just like the butterfly in the cocoon, it's the effort that prepares us to fly.
I also introduce the Summit Framework, a tool I created to help therapists understand where they are in their development and what comes next. This framework outlines four levels of CCPT skill growth—clinical, applied, refined, and insight—and gives you a clear path forward. No matter where you are, what matters most is that you keep climbing. Because every child you serve is worth your effort, and every step you take gets you closer to the clinician you’re becoming.
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If you would like to ask me questions directly, check out www.ccptcollective.com, where I host two weekly Zoom calls filled with advanced CCPT case studies and session reviews, as well as member Q&A. You can take advantage of the two-week free trial to see if the CCPT Collective is right for you.
Ask Me Questions: Call (813) 812-5525, or email: brenna@thekidcounselor.com
Brenna's CCPT Hub: https://www.playtherapynow.com
CCPT Collective (online community exclusively for CCPTs): https://www.ccptcollective.com
Podcast HQ: https://www.playtherapypodcast.com
APT Approved Play Therapy CE courses: https://childcenteredtraining.com
Twitter: @thekidcounselor https://twitter.com/thekidcounselor
Facebook: https://facebook.com/playtherapypodcast
Common References:
Cochran, N., Nordling, W., & Cochran, J. (2010). Child-Centered Play Therapy (1st ed.). Wiley.
VanFleet, R., Sywulak, A. E., & Sniscak, C. C. (2010). Child-centered play therapy. Guilford Press.
Landreth, G.L. (2023). Play Therapy: The Art of the Relationship (4th ed.). Routledge.
Bratton, S. C., Landreth, G. L., Kellam, T., & Blackard, S. R. (2006). Child parent relationship therapy (CPRT) treatment manual: A 10-session filial therapy model for training parents. Routledge/Taylor & Francis Group.
Benedict, Helen. Themes in Play Therapy. Used with permission to Heartland Play Therapy Institute.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
a master class in child-centered play therapy
and practical support and application for your
work with children and their families.
In today's episode,
(00:21):
we just recently finished
the series.
So this is kind of just
I guess I call it a palette cleanse,
but
it's essentially kind of a one-off topic.
But something that I think is really important,
really necessary,
especially on the heels of the CCPT Purism series.
(00:42):
One of the things that I've been
hearing a lot,
a lot of emails,
a lot of messages,
is
I feel like
I'm not where I want to be with CCPT.
I feel like I still am not trained enough.
I still don't have enough skill.
I still don't feel like I'm competent or effective in the playroom.
(01:03):
And so this episode specifically is for you.
I want you to
think about this phrase,
and no matter where you are,
whether you feel like you've actually
really done a deep dive and you feel very competent
in CCPT.
Regardless of where you are,
there's always more to learn.
And you're not behind,
(01:24):
you're becoming.
We know how often we say that this is a process of becoming for our kids.
It's
a way of being
as clinicians.
And no matter where we are on the journey,
we're not behind,
we're becoming.
So if you have felt inadequate,
(01:45):
if you have felt stuck,
if you have felt like you're lagging behind your peers or others in the field.
You are none of those things
you're becoming.
And I want to share a couple of stories of transformation.
I want to kind of talk through
the fact that growth takes time.
(02:06):
And there is in fact a proven path forward.
And so if you feel like there's still more to learn,
more to gain,
more to grow,
which all of us are there,
regardless of where we are,
there's always more to gain,
grow and know.
There
are very practical,
tangible things that you can be doing
(02:26):
as part of a framework
to get you further down the journey.
So if you've ever felt like everyone else gets
CCPT.
Or
you really want to get it and you just quite haven't landed yet,
or you feel like you're trying to keep up.
(02:46):
This episode is for you,
basically,
because I want to encourage you
and help you understand that
your struggles are just like everyone else's.
And also
it's the struggle that allows you to achieve what you're looking for.
Let's,
let's talk about the butterfly in the cocoon for a second.
And if you all are familiar with CPRT curriculum,
(03:09):
you know that this is a story that we share with parents.
Why?
Because it illustrates the notion of without the struggle,
no one ever learns to fly.
Two
cocoons
with butterflies.
Family watches one
butterfly create a tiny little hole in the bottom of the cocoon
and struggles for a very,
(03:29):
very long time to squeeze its body out of
the hole in the cocoon and then it lays exhausted next to the cocoon for a while.
So with the second cocoon,
the family says,
you know what,
let's help.
So they very carefully cut open the cocoon.
And the butterfly emerges
far more easily out of the cocoon because there was no struggle,
(03:51):
lays next to the cocoon for several hours.
Now,
if we stop the story there,
both butterflies emerged,
both laid next to the cocoon for several hours.
We would think that the result is the same.
Interestingly enough,
the result is not the same.
All of you Lepidopterists know this.
That's one of those random facts that I know.
The study of butterflies is Lepidoptery,
(04:13):
whatever,
so weird what my brain holds anyway.
You Lepidopterists out there,
you know
that the butterfly that the family cut the cocoon open,
it died.
Why?
Because the struggle through that tiny little hole.
Pushes
things into the capillaries in the wings
(04:35):
that the butterfly needs
in order for it to be able to fly.
And without the struggle,
it never is able to fly.
So let's enlarge this to ourselves now.
Many of you constantly email me and say,
oh my gosh,
I just feel like I'm struggling and I feel like I just,
I'm not getting to where I want to be fast enough and I
don't feel like I have enough training or knowledge or awareness or execution.
(05:00):
Well,
without the struggle,
you're never going to learn to fly.
The struggle is what shapes us.
It it's what makes us,
it's what helps us to keep going.
So
I often hear.
I
know
everything in my head,
but when I get in the playroom,
I just can't seem to say what I know.
(05:21):
I'm not sure when to say what to say,
how to say.
It's like there's just this block,
you know,
it's like it can't go from my tongue to my from my brain to my tongue.
It just gets stuck somewhere along the way.
I know it,
but I just can't say it when I want to say it.
Very common.
Another
comment I get all the time is
I,
I just find myself swooping in.
(05:42):
I,
I solved the problem.
I rescue kids.
I wanna fix things.
I wanna spare them.
I wanna shelter them.
I wanna help.
I want to do all these things and,
and I know that I shouldn't be,
but I just like I can't help myself.
Another
very common struggle.
Something else I hear pretty frequently.
I don't even know that
(06:02):
I'm doing anything.
I'm,
I'm focusing on the relationship
and I'm,
I'm
believing the CCPT works,
and even though I don't really know a whole lot about it,
I,
I do know that the relationship matters and that's the change agent,
so
I'm,
I'm focusing on relationship,
but I don't even think that I'm helping.
Another
common struggle.
(06:24):
I,
I think I'm probably just doing it all wrong.
I'm just not familiar enough and I'm sure I'm saying things and doing things and
and responding in ways that are just not adherent at all,
and I think I'm just getting most things wrong,
and I don't even know
what's wrong.
I just feel like most of it's probably wrong.
And I could give you more and more and more examples.
(06:46):
So,
you know,
I get emails and and I do discovery calls
and in the coaching groups and the collective,
I hear these presented all the time.
And these are normal.
They are expected.
And their struggles that are means to an end.
They're not signs of failure.
(07:07):
I've
thought about this a lot actually in
in context of relationships,
not necessarily therapy.
But
I think y'all know at this point I'm a country music girl,
so
everyone says that Florida isn't the South.
So they're like,
you're not even like a Southern girl though,
and I'm just,
I'm just gonna argue and say that Florida counts as the South.
(07:28):
So
Southern girl,
country girl,
my thing.
And there's a song
that says,
we don't even fight anymore.
Carly Pierce,
absolutely fantastic song.
But the premise of the song is,
we don't cuss,
we don't care,
we don't yell.
Like we don't even fight anymore.
And what she's describing is
(07:50):
indifference.
And I think about that a lot in context of relationships because
if
you're happy and excited and engaged and
everything's going really smoothly,
that's one side of a relationship.
If you're fighting and arguing and yelling and upset and angry,
that's another side of a relationship,
(08:10):
but both
require engagement and investment.
I think the most dangerous thing is indifference,
because if you get to a point of indifference,
then
you don't have
emotion,
you don't have engagement,
you don't have the buy in anymore.
You're just like,
I don't even care.
All right,
so why am I bringing that up?
(08:31):
Because we often think that
if
we're struggling with all this stuff,
you know,
it's a problem,
it's failure,
it means that we're doomed,
it means that we're not doing what we should be doing.
The fact that you care,
the fact that you're listening to this podcast,
the fact that you're irritated by your lack of skill development,
the fact that you're working so hard to figure this stuff out,
(08:53):
you're invested,
you care.
You're not indifferent
or you would be OK with the status quo.
Let that
serve you in
a positive encouraging way.
Because
You will get there.
You will.
There's a framework.
We're gonna talk about it in just a second,
but before we get to the framework,
(09:15):
I want to share a couple of really quick stories.
I'm graduating a couple of groups
next week,
and I just recently graduated another coaching group a couple weeks ago.
And
I wish,
I really wish that I could show you
the first video
play session that I watched of theirs,
and the final play session video that I watched of theirs because
(09:37):
you wouldn't even recognize that it's the same
person except that it's the same person.
I've watched videos of therapists that
were doing directive activities
in their playrooms.
While enrolling in a CCPT class telling me that they are fully CCPT,
I watch a first session
and
(09:58):
they're presenting directive activities.
They're asking the child how they feel.
They're processing questions and
and prompts with the child.
They're bringing up their own dialogue and bringing up their own topics
to discuss.
And over the course of the coaching program,
(10:20):
I watched them
lean into the model
and embrace it.
And fully adhere
And they're totally different clinicians on the other side.
And
They grew
And they changed and they had huge breakthroughs.
And look,
there are stages of change.
(10:42):
So often I think that we feel like if we keep defaulting to what we've always done
that we're not changing,
we're not growing.
That's actually stage one of change.
And I'll really quickly go through this because I don't know
how often I've talked about this before on the podcast.
There are 4 stages of change.
So your first
stage of change is you've learned something new,
(11:03):
but you still default to what you've always done.
That does not mean failure.
That does not mean that you are not moving toward changing.
It means you're in stage one.
There's no stage 0 here,
y'all,
OK?
So
if you are defaulting to what you've
always done after you've learned something new,
you are still in stage one of change.
(11:23):
Stage 2 of change is you default to
what you've always done after what you've learned,
but you realize it after the fact.
Oh man,
I should have done blah blah blah there.
And you still feel like it's too late and
you still feel like it's a missed opportunity,
but you noticed it and you realized it.
That's stage 2.
Stage 3,
you've learned your new skill,
(11:43):
you start to default to what you've always done,
but you catch yourself.
And you use your new skill,
even though you started to default
to what you've always done,
you were aware of it and you were able
to stop and change.
That's stage 3 and then stage 4,
you,
your default becomes your new skill.
(12:06):
So regardless of where you are,
you can do big picture CCPT,
you can do very specific skill,
you could do just on choice giving,
for example.
I'm still not giving kids choices even though I know about it.
OK,
I'm in stage one.
Or,
well,
I,
I realized that I should have given a choice after I didn't give a choice.
OK,
you're in stage two.
(12:26):
So you can go big picture CCPT CCPT theory,
or you can go very specific to one skill.
See where you are in stages of change,
this should encourage you.
This should help you to feel like you are on your way.
Because
when you have those breakthrough moments,
when you hit stage 3 and stage 4 and you realize,
(12:47):
oh my gosh,
I didn't praise,
I just encouraged instead.
It's a huge breakthrough moment.
And guess what,
it builds your confidence.
And your practice will totally transform.
But here's
what I need to emphasize.
It is,
it doesn't happen overnight.
It didn't happen for my coaching folks overnight either.
(13:08):
You have to follow a path.
You have to know where you're going and how to get there,
and you need to have support.
And that's obviously why you're listening to this podcast.
You know that you need someone to come alongside you,
and so you're getting there.
It's not going to evolve
instantaneously,
(13:29):
but it is in fact taking place and sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees.
We lose objectivity when we're right in the thick of stuff.
It doesn't mean that you're not changing though.
So,
I want to really quickly,
I've
never talked about this on the podcast before,
but I think this is so helpful in light of
this notion of we're becoming.
(13:50):
So
we developed a roadmap that helps CCPTs understand where
they are in their journey and where that they're
trying to go
and where to go next.
That's something that we created and I've,
I've presented it in different workshops and conferences that I've done.
Never brought it to the podcast before and this is
going to be a really quick Cliff Notes crash course,
(14:11):
but I want you to understand
there are 4 tiers of what we call the Summit Framework.
So I created,
if you can imagine,
like a little pyramid,
OK?
So,
you know,
a summit,
you're,
you're climbing to the top.
So think about a summit,
pyramid,
icon,
and think about there being 4 levels.
This is
(14:31):
the framework for your tiers of growth.
So I'm gonna really quickly just kind of
give overview of this
so that you have a sense of where you are.
So at the bottom of the pyramid,
think about Maslow's hierarchy,
OK?
So bottom of the pyramid,
you have clinical skills.
These are your core therapeutic techniques.
(14:52):
You have to start here y'all.
If you're emailing me,
if you're joining the Collective,
if you're starting the coaching program,
and you're hounding me about why you can't understand themes
and why you're not understanding symbolic play
and you haven't mastered the core therapeutic techniques and you're
supposed to be down at the bottom of the summit framework
in clinical and you're trying to get to Insight,
(15:14):
which is at the very top,
it's no wonder you're frustrated.
We,
we don't get to the top of the summit by
teleporting to the top.
That'd be awesome though,
wouldn't it?
But we have to start at the bottom and climb,
OK?
There,
there's work involved,
there's ascent,
right?
We don't just manifest ourselves on the top of the mountain or the pyramid,
(15:35):
we have to journey there,
OK?
So if you are struggling with insight skills,
which are at the top of the pyramid,
that means that you don't have the bottom parts of the pyramid built yet.
What are in the clinical skills?
Your reflective responses.
Which are tracking behavior,
reflecting content,
reflecting feelings.
(15:55):
And then
your four pillars,
reflecting feelings is a crossover,
so that's one of the reflective responses,
and it's a pillar.
So we have reflecting feelings,
choice giving,
limit setting,
encouragement.
Those are 7
clinical skills that you must start
with
and master before you ever think about moving up the summit.
(16:18):
So your clinical skills are your core therapeutic techniques.
You have to start there.
If you cannot,
without even
thinking about it,
if it is not muscle memory at this point,
for you to reflectively respond,
to reflect feelings,
give choices,
set limits,
or encourage,
then you're not ready to move on to the next part of the summit yet.
(16:41):
After you get through the clinical skills,
we move into applied skills a little bit higher up the
the summit.
This is the practical implementation of the clinical skills.
So if you have the reflective responses in the pillars,
then you can start looking at the practical implementation.
What are some examples of that?
Returning responsibility.
(17:03):
When you return responsibility in the playroom.
It is based on the clinical skills that you've already mastered.
The notion of brevity.
What does that mean?
If you can't say it in 10 words or less,
don't say it.
What about the be with attitudes?
5 of them you should know them.
You should be yelling them at me right now.
(17:24):
I'm here.
I hear you.
I understand.
I care and I delight in you.
Unconditional acceptance.
There's no way you're going to be able
to unconditionally accept a child in the playroom,
which is an applied skill
if you don't deeply and congruently understand
the clinical skills.
If you don't have the reflective responses and the
(17:46):
pillars,
you're never gonna be able to have unconditional acceptance.
And congruence.
You have to know who you are,
you have to accept who you are,
and you have to bring that congruence to the playroom.
These are the applied skills.
This is the way that you implement the clinical that serves as your foundation.
(18:10):
So,
we're gonna start with the core therapeutic techniques,
we're gonna climb a little higher,
we have practical implementation,
then we're gonna climb a little bit higher,
getting into advanced techniques.
This is what we call the refined skills.
So what,
what does that look like?
Well,
avoiding value laden words.
Now you might say,
well,
Brenna,
(18:30):
I thought you said that
encouragement was in the clinical skills and praise versus encouragement.
We know that we don't use value laden words because that's praise.
I'm not talking about praising a child in the refined skills.
I'm talking about saying things like,
oh,
you found a great spot for that.
It's a value laden word.
That's refinement of the skills that we've already
(18:53):
learned.
What about using open-ended questions?
We don't ask questions in a playroom if you know enough to ask a question,
you know enough to make a statement.
How and when to use I wonder statements.
Y'all,
I,
I watch play sessions.
We use I wonder statements
(19:14):
like
we're
handing out candy
at a parade.
Oh my word.
There is a very intentional
way
that we use I wonder statements,
and it's not,
I wonder if you need to go to the bathroom.
I wonder if you
Excited to go to your party later.
(19:35):
That is not
how we use an I wonder statement.
Enlargement.
How do we enlarge what's going on when a child is playing?
How do we handle silence?
When are we silent?
How do we handle if a child is silent?
You know how many emails I get,
(19:55):
messages,
calls,
whatever
about
the kid won't talk,
so this isn't working.
Whoa,
let's go back to clinical skills.
Let's go back to applied skills.
We're going to unconditionally accept a child's silence,
number one.
And we can always track behavior,
(20:16):
even if a child says nothing.
We can always provide choices,
even if a child says nothing.
We can always encourage even if a child says nothing.
So,
we have to be grounded before we can
move up to the refinement of understanding silence.
Handling resistance,
(20:38):
oh boy.
So many of us really have a hard time if a child will not come back to the playroom.
If a child says that they don't want to come play with you anymore.
If a child will not leave their mom's lap
in the lobby.
This is refinement of skills.
(20:59):
And providing narrative commentary
so that we're not just tracking behavior over and over and over again,
we can actually provide narrative commentary instead.
Notice how this is refinement of stuff that we've already learned.
That's 3rd level of the summit and then finally,
the insight skills where we have deep understanding and articulation.
(21:22):
Of the model and what's happening.
So this is where we start to recognize themes.
This
is where we can understand symbolic play.
This is where we're noticing shifts in progress.
This is where we learn how to effectively document.
What's happening in sessions,
and this is how we articulate these concepts to parents.
(21:45):
If you are struggling in your parent consultations.
And you're going,
oh my gosh,
I just don't know how to explain this,
and I don't know what to say,
and I don't know what themes,
and I don't know what symbolic play and I don't understand
how to document this stuff,
and this is just a nightmare.
You're trying to
teleport yourself to the top of the summit,
and there are 3 other layers that you have to trudge through first.
(22:08):
And look,
the trudgings lighten CCPT y'all.
This is the most incredible thing in the world.
This is such a gift,
this is such a blessing.
This is something that we have the honor and privilege
of working on and building and learning and growing every single day.
You know,
we're not
Using a post hole digger to install a fence,
(22:30):
OK?
That's trudging through,
that's drudgery work.
This isn't that,
this is exciting.
This is
something that we can be passionate about,
but we still have to do the work.
There's layers of our framework that have to be developed.
To climb the summit,
we actually have to
(22:51):
work through
each piece as we go.
So,
I know that was a very quick overview and I
know that does not do our summit framework justice,
but the reason why I'm bringing this to your attention is
the summit is not a race.
It's a path.
And so if you're struggling,
(23:12):
for example,
at the clinical skill level.
It doesn't mean that you're failing,
doesn't mean that you're never going to succeed.
It means that you're starting your climb.
My best friend in college was a cross country
runner in college and she now runs marathons.
She actually just ran the London Marathon.
She ran the Chicago marathon in the fall.
(23:35):
That girl loves to run.
I,
I don't get it.
Give me a 5K and I will hang my hat and be happy.
I do not want to run 26 miles,
but she has always loved to run.
And you know what runners will tell you over and over and over again,
especially long distance runners.
It's excruciating,
but you just put 1 ft in front of the in front of the other over and over and over again.
(24:00):
You just keep putting 1 ft in front of the other.
She
had all kinds of
stuff going on in her Chicago marathon.
She ran,
like an,
like in the middle of the night mountain race a while back
and
her legs seized up and she couldn't move them
and like there was all this stuff going on,
(24:20):
but she was like,
I just kept putting 1 ft in front of the other.
That's what this is about.
It's one foot in front of the other.
You're at the start of your climb.
Here's the
wonderful thing about climbing.
If you keep climbing,
you eventually get to the top.
The only
method
(24:40):
by which you cannot reach the top is if you stop climbing.
That there is a finite point
where you eventually will get to where you're going.
And then you're just gonna climb another summit.
But
in theory,
I'm saying,
imagine a mountain and imagine the path to the top of the mountain,
you will get there if you keep climbing.
(25:03):
So this is not failure,
it just means that you need to keep going.
So,
often many therapists will tell me that they feel like they're failing,
they haven't gotten it yet,
they're,
you know,
not,
they're not who and what they want to be yet.
Look,
this is not about quick mastery.
It can't be.
(25:23):
Chinese proverb,
you need 10,000 hours to master something.
It's about steady transformation.
It's about steady work.
It's about steady investment.
one
foot in front of the other.
You're not supposed to already be at the top of the mountain.
You're meant to still be climbing.
(25:45):
All of us are.
It's a,
it's a journey and it's a climb.
It's an ascent.
We never arrive.
We might get to the top of one summit and then there's another summit to climb.
Always more to learn.
So,
here's what I encourage you to do.
Ask yourself,
what level of those four skills,
so you have clinical skills,
(26:05):
applied skills,
refined skills,
insight skills.
What level do you feel that you're on right now?
And what is the next step forward for you?
You do not have to be
at the top tier to be effective.
You just have to stay adherent to the model
and keep growing.
(26:27):
And you are becoming exactly the therapist that you're meant to be,
regardless of where you are.
So be encouraged,
real struggles
lead to real growth.
And you have a real framework that shows you where you are,
that can help you and provide you with insight.
So
(26:47):
if you want me to come alongside you,
I am happy to coach you.
I have coaching people that have already gone on this journey
and like I said,
they're totally different clinicians.
Schedule a discovery call with me.
I would be happy to make sure that it's a good fit for you.
Join the Collective.
You have an online community of almost 200 people
that are climbing their own summit
(27:09):
right next to you
with discussion boards and forums and whatever.
There are things you can do to support your climb.
But inevitably it's up to you to keep climbing,
so be encouraged,
know that it is worth it.
Because every kid that walks into your playroom
is worth it.
That's our why
(27:30):
Every single kid every single hour.
We keep climbing,
we keep becoming a better version of ourselves for them,
they become a better version of themselves as a result.
That's our why,
don't lose sight of the why.
All right,
hope that encourages you.
Hope that that inspires you.
If you would like to talk to me.
(27:54):
Share stories with me,
ask questions,
whatever.
brenna@thekidcounselor.com.
Also,
before we go,
our very next episode
is our 300th.
It is going to be a live stream live event.
Please RSVP you can click the link in the show notes.
We have more than 100 people registered already.
I'm sure that number will continue to increase.
(28:16):
So make sure that you let us know that you're gonna be there.
And we will spend time together hanging out this Friday on the 16th at 1:30pm Eastern.
I love you all so much.
We'll talk again soon.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
Brenna Hicks.
For more episodes and resources,
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
Hi,
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,
The Kid Counselor.
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
a master class in child-centered play therapy
and practical support and application for your
work with children and their families.
In today's episode,
(00:21):
we just recently finished
the series.
So this is kind of just
I guess I call it a palette cleanse,
but
it's essentially kind of a one-off topic.
But something that I think is really important,
really necessary,
especially on the heels of the CCPT Purism series.
(00:42):
One of the things that I've been
hearing a lot,
a lot of emails,
a lot of messages,
is
I feel like
I'm not where I want to be with CCPT.
I feel like I still am not trained enough.
I still don't have enough skill.
I still don't feel like I'm competent or effective in the playroom.
(01:03):
And so this episode specifically is for you.
I want you to
think about this phrase,
and no matter where you are,
whether you feel like you've actually
really done a deep dive and you feel very competent
in CCPT.
Regardless of where you are,
there's always more to learn.
And you're not behind,
(01:24):
you're becoming.
We know how often we say that this is a process of becoming for our kids.
It's
a way of being
as clinicians.
And no matter where we are on the journey,
we're not behind,
we're becoming.
So if you have felt inadequate,
(01:45):
if you have felt stuck,
if you have felt like you're lagging behind your peers or others in the field.
You are none of those things
you're becoming.
And I want to share a couple of stories of transformation.
I want to kind of talk through
the fact that growth takes time.
(02:06):
And there is in fact a proven path forward.
And so if you feel like there's still more to learn,
more to gain,
more to grow,
which all of us are there,
regardless of where we are,
there's always more to gain,
grow and know.
There
are very practical,
tangible things that you can be doing
(02:26):
as part of a framework
to get you further down the journey.
So if you've ever felt like everyone else gets
CCPT.
Or
you really want to get it and you just quite haven't landed yet,
or you feel like you're trying to keep up.
(02:46):
This episode is for you,
basically,
because I want to encourage you
and help you understand that
your struggles are just like everyone else's.
And also
it's the struggle that allows you to achieve what you're looking for.
Let's,
let's talk about the butterfly in the cocoon for a second.
And if you all are familiar with CPRT curriculum,
(03:09):
you know that this is a story that we share with parents.
Why?
Because it illustrates the notion of without the struggle,
no one ever learns to fly.
Two
cocoons
with butterflies.
Family watches one
butterfly create a tiny little hole in the bottom of the cocoon
and struggles for a very,
(03:29):
very long time to squeeze its body out of
the hole in the cocoon and then it lays exhausted next to the cocoon for a while.
So with the second cocoon,
the family says,
you know what,
let's help.
So they very carefully cut open the cocoon.
And the butterfly emerges
far more easily out of the cocoon because there was no struggle,
(03:51):
lays next to the cocoon for several hours.
Now,
if we stop the story there,
both butterflies emerged,
both laid next to the cocoon for several hours.
We would think that the result is the same.
Interestingly enough,
the result is not the same.
All of you Lepidopterists know this.
That's one of those random facts that I know.
The study of butterflies is Lepidoptery,
(04:13):
whatever,
so weird what my brain holds anyway.
You Lepidopterists out there,
you know
that the butterfly that the family cut the cocoon open,
it died.
Why?
Because the struggle through that tiny little hole.
Pushes
things into the capillaries in the wings
(04:35):
that the butterfly needs
in order for it to be able to fly.
And without the struggle,
it never is able to fly.
So let's enlarge this to ourselves now.
Many of you constantly email me and say,
oh my gosh,
I just feel like I'm struggling and I feel like I just,
I'm not getting to where I want to be fast enough and I
don't feel like I have enough training or knowledge or awareness or execution.
(05:00):
Well,
without the struggle,
you're never going to learn to fly.
The struggle is what shapes us.
It it's what makes us,
it's what helps us to keep going.
So
I often hear.
I
know
everything in my head,
but when I get in the playroom,
I just can't seem to say what I know.
(05:21):
I'm not sure when to say what to say,
how to say.
It's like there's just this block,
you know,
it's like it can't go from my tongue to my from my brain to my tongue.
It just gets stuck somewhere along the way.
I know it,
but I just can't say it when I want to say it.
Very common.
Another
comment I get all the time is
I,
I just find myself swooping in.
(05:42):
I,
I solved the problem.
I rescue kids.
I wanna fix things.
I wanna spare them.
I wanna shelter them.
I wanna help.
I want to do all these things and,
and I know that I shouldn't be,
but I just like I can't help myself.
Another
very common struggle.
Something else I hear pretty frequently.
I don't even know that
(06:02):
I'm doing anything.
I'm,
I'm focusing on the relationship
and I'm,
I'm
believing the CCPT works,
and even though I don't really know a whole lot about it,
I,
I do know that the relationship matters and that's the change agent,
so
I'm,
I'm focusing on relationship,
but I don't even think that I'm helping.
Another
common struggle.
(06:24):
I,
I think I'm probably just doing it all wrong.
I'm just not familiar enough and I'm sure I'm saying things and doing things and
and responding in ways that are just not adherent at all,
and I think I'm just getting most things wrong,
and I don't even know
what's wrong.
I just feel like most of it's probably wrong.
And I could give you more and more and more examples.
(06:46):
So,
you know,
I get emails and and I do discovery calls
and in the coaching groups and the collective,
I hear these presented all the time.
And these are normal.
They are expected.
And their struggles that are means to an end.
They're not signs of failure.
(07:07):
I've
thought about this a lot actually in
in context of relationships,
not necessarily therapy.
But
I think y'all know at this point I'm a country music girl,
so
everyone says that Florida isn't the South.
So they're like,
you're not even like a Southern girl though,
and I'm just,
I'm just gonna argue and say that Florida counts as the South.
(07:28):
So
Southern girl,
country girl,
my thing.
And there's a song
that says,
we don't even fight anymore.
Carly Pierce,
absolutely fantastic song.
But the premise of the song is,
we don't cuss,
we don't care,
we don't yell.
Like we don't even fight anymore.
And what she's describing is
(07:50):
indifference.
And I think about that a lot in context of relationships because
if
you're happy and excited and engaged and
everything's going really smoothly,
that's one side of a relationship.
If you're fighting and arguing and yelling and upset and angry,
that's another side of a relationship,
(08:10):
but both
require engagement and investment.
I think the most dangerous thing is indifference,
because if you get to a point of indifference,
then
you don't have
emotion,
you don't have engagement,
you don't have the buy in anymore.
You're just like,
I don't even care.
All right,
so why am I bringing that up?
(08:31):
Because we often think that
if
we're struggling with all this stuff,
you know,
it's a problem,
it's failure,
it means that we're doomed,
it means that we're not doing what we should be doing.
The fact that you care,
the fact that you're listening to this podcast,
the fact that you're irritated by your lack of skill development,
the fact that you're working so hard to figure this stuff out,
(08:53):
you're invested,
you care.
You're not indifferent
or you would be OK with the status quo.
Let that
serve you in
a positive encouraging way.
Because
You will get there.
You will.
There's a framework.
We're gonna talk about it in just a second,
but before we get to the framework,
(09:15):
I want to share a couple of really quick stories.
I'm graduating a couple of groups
next week,
and I just recently graduated another coaching group a couple weeks ago.
And
I wish,
I really wish that I could show you
the first video
play session that I watched of theirs,
and the final play session video that I watched of theirs because
(09:37):
you wouldn't even recognize that it's the same
person except that it's the same person.
I've watched videos of therapists that
were doing directive activities
in their playrooms.
While enrolling in a CCPT class telling me that they are fully CCPT,
I watch a first session
and
(09:58):
they're presenting directive activities.
They're asking the child how they feel.
They're processing questions and
and prompts with the child.
They're bringing up their own dialogue and bringing up their own topics
to discuss.
And over the course of the coaching program,
(10:20):
I watched them
lean into the model
and embrace it.
And fully adhere
And they're totally different clinicians on the other side.
And
They grew
And they changed and they had huge breakthroughs.
And look,
there are stages of change.
(10:42):
So often I think that we feel like if we keep defaulting to what we've always done
that we're not changing,
we're not growing.
That's actually stage one of change.
And I'll really quickly go through this because I don't know
how often I've talked about this before on the podcast.
There are 4 stages of change.
So your first
stage of change is you've learned something new,
(11:03):
but you still default to what you've always done.
That does not mean failure.
That does not mean that you are not moving toward changing.
It means you're in stage one.
There's no stage 0 here,
y'all,
OK?
So
if you are defaulting to what you've
always done after you've learned something new,
you are still in stage one of change.
(11:23):
Stage 2 of change is you default to
what you've always done after what you've learned,
but you realize it after the fact.
Oh man,
I should have done blah blah blah there.
And you still feel like it's too late and
you still feel like it's a missed opportunity,
but you noticed it and you realized it.
That's stage 2.
Stage 3,
you've learned your new skill,
(11:43):
you start to default to what you've always done,
but you catch yourself.
And you use your new skill,
even though you started to default
to what you've always done,
you were aware of it and you were able
to stop and change.
That's stage 3 and then stage 4,
you,
your default becomes your new skill.
(12:06):
So regardless of where you are,
you can do big picture CCPT,
you can do very specific skill,
you could do just on choice giving,
for example.
I'm still not giving kids choices even though I know about it.
OK,
I'm in stage one.
Or,
well,
I,
I realized that I should have given a choice after I didn't give a choice.
OK,
you're in stage two.
(12:26):
So you can go big picture CCPT CCPT theory,
or you can go very specific to one skill.
See where you are in stages of change,
this should encourage you.
This should help you to feel like you are on your way.
Because
when you have those breakthrough moments,
when you hit stage 3 and stage 4 and you realize,
(12:47):
oh my gosh,
I didn't praise,
I just encouraged instead.
It's a huge breakthrough moment.
And guess what,
it builds your confidence.
And your practice will totally transform.
But here's
what I need to emphasize.
It is,
it doesn't happen overnight.
It didn't happen for my coaching folks overnight either.
(13:08):
You have to follow a path.
You have to know where you're going and how to get there,
and you need to have support.
And that's obviously why you're listening to this podcast.
You know that you need someone to come alongside you,
and so you're getting there.
It's not going to evolve
instantaneously,
(13:29):
but it is in fact taking place and sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees.
We lose objectivity when we're right in the thick of stuff.
It doesn't mean that you're not changing though.
So,
I want to really quickly,
I've
never talked about this on the podcast before,
but I think this is so helpful in light of
this notion of we're becoming.
(13:50):
So
we developed a roadmap that helps CCPTs understand where
they are in their journey and where that they're
trying to go
and where to go next.
That's something that we created and I've,
I've presented it in different workshops and conferences that I've done.
Never brought it to the podcast before and this is
going to be a really quick Cliff Notes crash course,
(14:11):
but I want you to understand
there are 4 tiers of what we call the Summit Framework.
So I created,
if you can imagine,
like a little pyramid,
OK?
So,
you know,
a summit,
you're,
you're climbing to the top.
So think about a summit,
pyramid,
icon,
and think about there being 4 levels.
This is
(14:31):
the framework for your tiers of growth.
So I'm gonna really quickly just kind of
give overview of this
so that you have a sense of where you are.
So at the bottom of the pyramid,
think about Maslow's hierarchy,
OK?
So bottom of the pyramid,
you have clinical skills.
These are your core therapeutic techniques.
(14:52):
You have to start here y'all.
If you're emailing me,
if you're joining the Collective,
if you're starting the coaching program,
and you're hounding me about why you can't understand themes
and why you're not understanding symbolic play
and you haven't mastered the core therapeutic techniques and you're
supposed to be down at the bottom of the summit framework
in clinical and you're trying to get to Insight,
(15:14):
which is at the very top,
it's no wonder you're frustrated.
We,
we don't get to the top of the summit by
teleporting to the top.
That'd be awesome though,
wouldn't it?
But we have to start at the bottom and climb,
OK?
There,
there's work involved,
there's ascent,
right?
We don't just manifest ourselves on the top of the mountain or the pyramid,
(15:35):
we have to journey there,
OK?
So if you are struggling with insight skills,
which are at the top of the pyramid,
that means that you don't have the bottom parts of the pyramid built yet.
What are in the clinical skills?
Your reflective responses.
Which are tracking behavior,
reflecting content,
reflecting feelings.
(15:55):
And then
your four pillars,
reflecting feelings is a crossover,
so that's one of the reflective responses,
and it's a pillar.
So we have reflecting feelings,
choice giving,
limit setting,
encouragement.
Those are 7
clinical skills that you must start
with
and master before you ever think about moving up the summit.
(16:18):
So your clinical skills are your core therapeutic techniques.
You have to start there.
If you cannot,
without even
thinking about it,
if it is not muscle memory at this point,
for you to reflectively respond,
to reflect feelings,
give choices,
set limits,
or encourage,
then you're not ready to move on to the next part of the summit yet.
(16:41):
After you get through the clinical skills,
we move into applied skills a little bit higher up the
the summit.
This is the practical implementation of the clinical skills.
So if you have the reflective responses in the pillars,
then you can start looking at the practical implementation.
What are some examples of that?
Returning responsibility.
(17:03):
When you return responsibility in the playroom.
It is based on the clinical skills that you've already mastered.
The notion of brevity.
What does that mean?
If you can't say it in 10 words or less,
don't say it.
What about the be with attitudes?
5 of them you should know them.
You should be yelling them at me right now.
(17:24):
I'm here.
I hear you.
I understand.
I care and I delight in you.
Unconditional acceptance.
There's no way you're going to be able
to unconditionally accept a child in the playroom,
which is an applied skill
if you don't deeply and congruently understand
the clinical skills.
If you don't have the reflective responses and the
(17:46):
pillars,
you're never gonna be able to have unconditional acceptance.
And congruence.
You have to know who you are,
you have to accept who you are,
and you have to bring that congruence to the playroom.
These are the applied skills.
This is the way that you implement the clinical that serves as your foundation.
(18:10):
So,
we're gonna start with the core therapeutic techniques,
we're gonna climb a little higher,
we have practical implementation,
then we're gonna climb a little bit higher,
getting into advanced techniques.
This is what we call the refined skills.
So what,
what does that look like?
Well,
avoiding value laden words.
Now you might say,
well,
Brenna,
(18:30):
I thought you said that
encouragement was in the clinical skills and praise versus encouragement.
We know that we don't use value laden words because that's praise.
I'm not talking about praising a child in the refined skills.
I'm talking about saying things like,
oh,
you found a great spot for that.
It's a value laden word.
That's refinement of the skills that we've already
(18:53):
learned.
What about using open-ended questions?
We don't ask questions in a playroom if you know enough to ask a question,
you know enough to make a statement.
How and when to use I wonder statements.
Y'all,
I,
I watch play sessions.
We use I wonder statements
(19:14):
like
we're
handing out candy
at a parade.
Oh my word.
There is a very intentional
way
that we use I wonder statements,
and it's not,
I wonder if you need to go to the bathroom.
I wonder if you
Excited to go to your party later.
(19:35):
That is not
how we use an I wonder statement.
Enlargement.
How do we enlarge what's going on when a child is playing?
How do we handle silence?
When are we silent?
How do we handle if a child is silent?
You know how many emails I get,
(19:55):
messages,
calls,
whatever
about
the kid won't talk,
so this isn't working.
Whoa,
let's go back to clinical skills.
Let's go back to applied skills.
We're going to unconditionally accept a child's silence,
number one.
And we can always track behavior,
(20:16):
even if a child says nothing.
We can always provide choices,
even if a child says nothing.
We can always encourage even if a child says nothing.
So,
we have to be grounded before we can
move up to the refinement of understanding silence.
Handling resistance,
(20:38):
oh boy.
So many of us really have a hard time if a child will not come back to the playroom.
If a child says that they don't want to come play with you anymore.
If a child will not leave their mom's lap
in the lobby.
This is refinement of skills.
(20:59):
And providing narrative commentary
so that we're not just tracking behavior over and over and over again,
we can actually provide narrative commentary instead.
Notice how this is refinement of stuff that we've already learned.
That's 3rd level of the summit and then finally,
the insight skills where we have deep understanding and articulation.
(21:22):
Of the model and what's happening.
So this is where we start to recognize themes.
This
is where we can understand symbolic play.
This is where we're noticing shifts in progress.
This is where we learn how to effectively document.
What's happening in sessions,
and this is how we articulate these concepts to parents.
(21:45):
If you are struggling in your parent consultations.
And you're going,
oh my gosh,
I just don't know how to explain this,
and I don't know what to say,
and I don't know what themes,
and I don't know what symbolic play and I don't understand
how to document this stuff,
and this is just a nightmare.
You're trying to
teleport yourself to the top of the summit,
and there are 3 other layers that you have to trudge through first.
(22:08):
And look,
the trudgings lighten CCPT y'all.
This is the most incredible thing in the world.
This is such a gift,
this is such a blessing.
This is something that we have the honor and privilege
of working on and building and learning and growing every single day.
You know,
we're not
Using a post hole digger to install a fence,
(22:30):
OK?
That's trudging through,
that's drudgery work.
This isn't that,
this is exciting.
This is
something that we can be passionate about,
but we still have to do the work.
There's layers of our framework that have to be developed.
To climb the summit,
we actually have to
(22:51):
work through
each piece as we go.
So,
I know that was a very quick overview and I
know that does not do our summit framework justice,
but the reason why I'm bringing this to your attention is
the summit is not a race.
It's a path.
And so if you're struggling,
(23:12):
for example,
at the clinical skill level.
It doesn't mean that you're failing,
doesn't mean that you're never going to succeed.
It means that you're starting your climb.
My best friend in college was a cross country
runner in college and she now runs marathons.
She actually just ran the London Marathon.
She ran the Chicago marathon in the fall.
(23:35):
That girl loves to run.
I,
I don't get it.
Give me a 5K and I will hang my hat and be happy.
I do not want to run 26 miles,
but she has always loved to run.
And you know what runners will tell you over and over and over again,
especially long distance runners.
It's excruciating,
but you just put 1 ft in front of the in front of the other over and over and over again.
(24:00):
You just keep putting 1 ft in front of the other.
She
had all kinds of
stuff going on in her Chicago marathon.
She ran,
like an,
like in the middle of the night mountain race a while back
and
her legs seized up and she couldn't move them
and like there was all this stuff going on,
(24:20):
but she was like,
I just kept putting 1 ft in front of the other.
That's what this is about.
It's one foot in front of the other.
You're at the start of your climb.
Here's the
wonderful thing about climbing.
If you keep climbing,
you eventually get to the top.
The only
method
(24:40):
by which you cannot reach the top is if you stop climbing.
That there is a finite point
where you eventually will get to where you're going.
And then you're just gonna climb another summit.
But
in theory,
I'm saying,
imagine a mountain and imagine the path to the top of the mountain,
you will get there if you keep climbing.
(25:03):
So this is not failure,
it just means that you need to keep going.
So,
often many therapists will tell me that they feel like they're failing,
they haven't gotten it yet,
they're,
you know,
not,
they're not who and what they want to be yet.
Look,
this is not about quick mastery.
It can't be.
(25:23):
Chinese proverb,
you need 10,000 hours to master something.
It's about steady transformation.
It's about steady work.
It's about steady investment.
one
foot in front of the other.
You're not supposed to already be at the top of the mountain.
You're meant to still be climbing.
(25:45):
All of us are.
It's a,
it's a journey and it's a climb.
It's an ascent.
We never arrive.
We might get to the top of one summit and then there's another summit to climb.
Always more to learn.
So,
here's what I encourage you to do.
Ask yourself,
what level of those four skills,
so you have clinical skills,
(26:05):
applied skills,
refined skills,
insight skills.
What level do you feel that you're on right now?
And what is the next step forward for you?
You do not have to be
at the top tier to be effective.
You just have to stay adherent to the model
and keep growing.
(26:27):
And you are becoming exactly the therapist that you're meant to be,
regardless of where you are.
So be encouraged,
real struggles
lead to real growth.
And you have a real framework that shows you where you are,
that can help you and provide you with insight.
So
(26:47):
if you want me to come alongside you,
I am happy to coach you.
I have coaching people that have already gone on this journey
and like I said,
they're totally different clinicians.
Schedule a discovery call with me.
I would be happy to make sure that it's a good fit for you.
Join the Collective.
You have an online community of almost 200 people
that are climbing their own summit
(27:09):
right next to you
with discussion boards and forums and whatever.
There are things you can do to support your climb.
But inevitably it's up to you to keep climbing,
so be encouraged,
know that it is worth it.
Because every kid that walks into your playroom
is worth it.
That's our why
(27:30):
Every single kid every single hour.
We keep climbing,
we keep becoming a better version of ourselves for them,
they become a better version of themselves as a result.
That's our why,
don't lose sight of the why.
All right,
hope that encourages you.
Hope that that inspires you.
If you would like to talk to me.
(27:54):
Share stories with me,
ask questions,
whatever.
brenna@thekidcounselor.com.
Also,
before we go,
our very next episode
is our 300th.
It is going to be a live stream live event.
Please RSVP you can click the link in the show notes.
We have more than 100 people registered already.
I'm sure that number will continue to increase.
(28:16):
So make sure that you let us know that you're gonna be there.
And we will spend time together hanging out this Friday on the 16th at 1:30pm Eastern.
I love you all so much.
We'll talk again soon.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
Brenna Hicks.
For more episodes and resources,
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.
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