October 15, 2024 • 25 mins
For years, F-gases have been in the spotlight for many complex reasons – some good and some bad: they make it possible to achieve impressive things like the super reliability of our electricity supply. On the other hand, they have a downside (the high Global Warming Potential of SF6 comes to mind).
All things considered, it would be unfair to put all of these gases in the same box since they come in various types, each with distinct characteristics and applications.
Let’s unpack the nuances of F-gases in this episode with Rebecka Forward, Product Material Compliance Manager for the High Voltage Products business unit at Hitachi Energy. She breaks down everything you need to know about these gases into simple terms, their pros and cons, and their role in enabling the industry to move forward with better and more sustainable solutions.
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Rebecka Forward is a Product Material Compliance Manager who oversees our high-voltage products at Hitachi Energy.
Rebecka holds two chemistry degrees, both earned in her home country of Canada. Rebecka has a strong passion for chemistry and spent a few years sharing her knowledge with undergraduate students by teaching them the intricacies of this subject.
Rebecka’s primary focus is ensuring that our products adhere to global materials regulations, guaranteeing their safety for our valued customers and the environment. She is deeply committed to sustainability, actively fostering collaboration, and embracing diversity.
In her free time, Rebecka enjoys spending time outdoors she loves cycling, exploring nature, and going on adventurous trips.
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Visit www.hitachienergy.com/powerpulse for more information.
The Power Pulse podcast is produced and edited by Creative Chimps for Hitachi Energy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
High voltage takes center stagein this season of Hitachi
Energy's Power Pulse podcast.
We promise to bring you great contentfrom the brightest minds in the business.
We'll discuss challenges, opportunities,and all the hot topics
any high voltage enthusiast
or anyone interested in sustainabilityfor that matter, is sure to enjoy.
In this episode of the podcast,you will meet Rebecka Forward,
Hitachi Energy'sProduct Material Compliance Manager.
(00:24):
Rebecka holds two chemistry degrees,both earned in her home country of Canada.
She has a strong passionfor chemistry and loves
that it can be found anywhere you look.
She loves it so much,
she spent a few yearsteaching undergraduate students
and helping them understandits intricacies.
Rebecka's primary focus is ensuring thathigh voltage products adhere to global
materials regulations, guaranteeingtheir safety for our valued customers and
(00:45):
the environment.
Welcome back to Power Pulse.
I'm your host, Sam Dash, and todayI'm speaking with Rebecka Forward,
Product Material Compliance Manager.
Hi, Rebecka. Hi. So glad to be here today.
Thank you for having me.
You're welcome.
So, Rebecka,you are a chemist by training.
You studied at Queen's Universityand University of British Columbia.
(01:08):
What did you enjoy most about yourtraining at that stage of your career?
I think I've always been a bit of a nerd.
Chemistry was my favorite subjectin high school, and so getting to study it
and explore it more as I got a bitolder was just really interesting for me.
It's always been a big passion.
I think there's so much to learn.
I think there's a lot of intricacieswhen you look at things
(01:28):
at that small of a space, andso always have been a point of interest.
Now, I remember reading in your biothat you really enjoy the outdoors.
Absolutely.
Do you feel likethere was some sort of connection
for you between your love of chemistryand your love of the outdoors?
Did those feel like they overlappedfor you?
To be honest, I think I do see them askind of two different worlds that I love.
(01:51):
But I think when you kind oflook at the world itself,
you can always break it into chemistry,physics and mathematics, you know?
Yeah.
I think that's kind of the beauty
of like exploration and being outdoorsis that you can kind of explain
all of the things in the natural worldusing chemistry, physics and mathematics.
Yeah, I love that.
Let's get into more of the chemistry.
(02:12):
First things first.
The ‘F’ in F-gasstands for fluoride or fluorine.
Is that right? Yes. It'snever what people think it is.
It's definitely fluorine.
So what exactly is fluorine?
It's an element on the periodic table.
It's always at the top right corner.
And so that also can tell us a bitabout the properties.
One of the properties of being at the topright corner, it means it loves electron
(02:35):
density – really wants to pull electrondensity towards it.
And that's actually one of the properties
that's going to make it such a good gasfor high voltage equipment.
And is it true that tennis ballsused to be filled with SF6?
I was actually just as surprised as youwhen I came across that little tidbit.
It's actually true.
They don't do it anymore, obviously,for the environmental reasons.
(02:58):
But actually, if you kind of thinkabout a helium balloon,
you know, after a few daysthat helium kind of dissipates, right?
And that's
because most materials you can kind oflook at as a bit like a cheese
grater, there's a little bit of holesin between everything.
And when you have something like heliumgas that's really, really tiny,
it can move through those holesin the cheese grater pretty quickly.
(03:18):
Whereas SF6,if you think about it, it’s sulfur
with six fluorines,it's quite a large molecule.
And so I think the incentive wasif they put these larger gas molecules,
it'll be harder to go through those holesin the cheese grater
and it'll stay at a higher pressurefor longer, and your tennis ball will work
a little better.
I love that analogy of the cheese grater.
I feel like that's such a great visualfor our listeners.
(03:39):
So you said sulfurand that refers to the ‘S’ in SF6.
Yeah.
And you've described a bitwhat fluorine is like as a component.
Yeah. What is sulfur like?
How would you describe sulfur?
In the periodic table, it's actuallystructured in such an intelligent way.
We get information from the rowsthat the element is in the periodic table
(04:01):
and the columns.
And so sulfur is just one below oxygenon the periodic table.
So have some similar propertiesbut a much – I guess
– lower affinity for electron densitythan in something like oxygen.
And what makes it such a good pairwith fluorine?
So sulfur is a bit of a larger atom.
It's one row down in the periodic table,which means it's a little bit
(04:21):
bigger, has a little bitmore electron density.
Some of those electronsaren't being held on so tightly.
So it can share a little bit more of thatelectron density with fluorine.
And fluorine likes that because fluorine’s
a little greedy, really wants to hold onto all that electron density.
Then it works as a good pair.
Got it.
Got it.
A good but at times not necessarilythe safest pair.
Definitely.
(04:42):
It really depends onhow you're using these compounds.
Yeah. Absolutely.
So I've heard that also SF6 may be used
in eye surgeryto help repair damaged retinas.
Is that right?
Well I'm no ophthalmologist,so please don't quote me on this one,
but it's actually a very similar analogyto the cheese grater.
So when you have just undergone surgery,you want to kind of fill the eye
(05:05):
with a bit of gas to kind of protectand allow time for that to repair.
If you use something like helium,it would dissipate really quickly
and not give the tissuethe time it needed to repair.
Now, SF6 is actually nontoxic for humans,
which is also one of the factorsof why it was used so readily.
So it's nontoxic.It won't absorb into the skin.
It won't hurt you as a person,but it gives the eye the time to heal
(05:26):
because it can't get through those cheesegrater holes.
Yeah, right.
Obviously you had your trainingin university, but have you also gathered
some of this knowledgethrough your experience at Hitachi Energy?
Yeah, I mean,you spend a lot of time at university
and a little bit more time than anyoneelse wants to spend working on chemistry.
But then
also just with my past experiences,I worked at a contract research company,
(05:49):
got a huge amount of diverse experience
learningabout these different compounds there.
And then when I came to Hitachi Energy,it was a nice opportunity
to really focus on,like the specifics and dive into a niche.
And so I have a lot of really intelligentcoworkers in the R&D team
that have taught meso much of what I know,
and that'show I can kind of talk about it now.
There's a lot of collaborationwith my colleagues,
but it's been really interestingto learn about.
(06:11):
Yeah, I love how it sounds like everyonesort of shares
their knowledge, and it's very,a communal environment.
Absolutely.
It's one of the things I like the mostabout working here – is really working
with some truly intelligent, smart,interesting people.
Each expert that we've spoken to so farhere at the table,
they've explainedhow bad SF6 is for the planet.
(06:32):
I'm wonderingwhat are the exact documented drawbacks of
SF6 that you're aware of?
The biggest drawback of SF6 is its highglobal warming potential,
or people refer to it as GWP, and so it'squite harmful for the environment.
So why don't we dive into a little bitabout what that actually means.
Of course we have the sunwhich shines down light or heat.
(06:53):
I’ll kind of use them interchangeably,but shines heat onto the Earth.
And now that's going to be readilyreflected back.
And so that's maybe on glaciers, on snow,on any other highly reflective surface
on the Earth.
Then that heat gets reflected anddissipates into space naturally cooling.
Right? We're removing some heat.
When we have a lot of high global warmingpotential molecules in the atmosphere,
(07:16):
those molecules absorbthat heat and can re-irradiate it.
So you almost get this ricochet effectwhere it's kind of bouncing between
these molecules in the atmosphere,back to Earth,
back to the molecules back to Earth,
so that heat isn't getting dissipatedinto space.
It's staying around the Earth and slowlycontributing to increase in temperature.
With a sort of fair visual be almost asif you have two mirrors- Exactly.
(07:41):
Sort of facing each other.Is that right? Absolutely.
You could picture me in spaceand you on the ground,
and we're just ricocheting this backand forth.
And it’s unable to escape. Is that right?
Yeah. Yeah.
So there's two major factorsthat kind of contribute
to how high a global warmingpotential gas can have.
And so the first one is how much heatit can absorb.
(08:01):
And the other ishow much of it is in the atmosphere.
Funnily enough, water vapor
is actually a really strong greenhouse gasbecause it can absorb a lot of heat.
But as we've all learned in school,
water in oceans and rivers gets vaporizeda little bit into the atmosphere.
Then it condenses in cloudsand it comes down as snow or rain.
That cycle is actually relativelyvery short, so it mitigates
(08:24):
the amount of time that this water vaporis in the atmosphere.
So it absorbs heat very well,but it doesn't stick around for very long.
Right. Now SF6 is not that situation.
SF6 is very good at absorbing heatand it stays in the atmosphere
for a very long time.
One thing that seems consistent acrossevery grid, across the world
is that they all seem to rely on SF6to varying degrees.
(08:46):
What are the alternatives for a circuitbreaker that has been using SF6 reliably?
It's a really good questionand it's also a bit complex.
So why don't I break it upinto a couple of components.
First off, one of our major uses of SF6is in the circuit breaker.
And so you can think of a circuit breakervery much like a fuse
but for an energy grid systemrather than for your home.
(09:07):
The fundamentals of the circuit breakeris there's two pins,
and when connected, electricitycan easily flow between them.
When you have some typeof electrical disturbance,
maybe a lightning bolt,and you need to stop the flow
of electricity to protect the grid,
you can separate these two pinsand stop the flow of electricity.
So is that for instance, like,
you know, I think I grew up learningthat you should unplug things
(09:29):
like your computerwhen there's going to be a lightning storm
or something like that,so that there isn't a surge of electricity
that burns out your computers,that what we're talking about.
Exactly.
And if we have the interruptionof electricity properly,
then you don't have to worry about thatelectrical surge.
Basically, when we're workingwith some high voltage applications,
(09:49):
when you separate these pins,you can actually have electricity kind of
jumping between these two pins –that would be called an electrical arc.
And this is where we use these insulatinggases to mitigate this occurrence.
Right.
And so the gases have two primaryfunctions.
One is the property of being insulating.
You can kind of think about thislike for instance in your home
(10:09):
when you're cookingyou're going to use a metal frying pan.
The metal conducts electricity very well.
It conducts heat very well.And you can use it for cooking your food.
Yeah.
Whereas something like plasticor rubber is very insulating
and therefore you can't have electricitymoving through it.
So you can think of these insulating gasesalmost as a gaseous rubber.
It's hard for electricity to movethrough it so it can help prevent an arc.
(10:31):
It acts as an obstacle.Is that right? Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's harder to run through that difficultmaterial.
It's really pushing you back,giving you some resistance.
And the second function iswhen the arc has formed.
It's very dependenton how hot it is to maintain that arc.
So in order to quench it, you want toremove heat as quickly as possible.
You want a molecule that can readilyabsorb heat and dissipate it,
(10:53):
which if that rings any bells,it sounds very similar to what's happening
when these molecules are in the atmosphereabsorbing a lot of heat.
Right. Right.
So we're designing themfor these certain applications.
And so SF6 is a very good insulator
and it's also very goodat dissipating heat away from the arc.
That's a very difficult set of particularproperties to try to replace.
(11:14):
And so what we've doneactually is use an eco-gas mixture
with multiple different gases that eachhave these individual properties.
And we can use themin very specific ratios to kind of create
a mixture that can do the whole function.
Some of these gases individuallycouldn't be used in the pure sense
because maybe one is good at insulatingbut it's bad at heat removal.
(11:35):
Right.
Or maybe one's good at heat removal,but it's bad at insulation.
So you have to come up
with your own recipethat uses the best function of each gas.
Exactly.
Again, those very smart R&Dscientists have managed to find a recipe
where they can adjust those specificationsso that they can get a 99% reduction
in the global warming potential comparedto SF6, but maintain the properties
(11:56):
that are required for a safeand operating electrical grid system.
Sort of keeping up the efficacy of SF6.
Absolutely.
Without the dangers.
Yeah, because it's really non-negotiablein our field.
We have to make products that are safe.
So we need to maintain the quality.
But it's also,you know, it's so important to try to work
towards more environmentally friendlyalternatives.
(12:17):
Rebecka,you mentioned earlier this term eco-gas.
Can you tell us what is an eco-gas?
The eco-gas we use or we call itEconiQ is a mixture of different gases.
And just to kind of circle backthis is to meet those properties
of the insulating capacity that we needand the heat dissipation properties
to when we mix all these different gasestogether,
(12:37):
we get the same functional propertiesrequired that we would for SF6.
The difference is – aswe were again talking global warming
potential –our eco-gas has one fluorinated gas in it.
C4 fluoronitrile.
This gas dissipatesin the environment in 30 years
and it degrades into readily availablenatural byproducts.
So the lifetime is relatively lowin comparison to SF6, SF6 stays around
(13:01):
for over 3000 years in the environment.
So when we do a comparison,you can really see that not all F-gases
are the same.
There's even nuancebetween this category F-gas.
And when you say the componentin EconiQ breaks down
into natural compounds,what does that mean?
These PFAS or these fluorinated compoundsare manmade chemicals.
(13:21):
But when this one manmade chemicalis released into the environment,
it actually splits apartinto other different compounds.
And those compoundsyou find naturally in the environment.
If something breaks down
into natural compounds, doesthat ensure a certain level of safety?
I think in comparisonto these manmade fluoro-chemicals,
they are inherently less hazardousfor this particular example.
(13:45):
Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong.
Is this EconiQ?
This is our EconiQ.
Yeah.
Yeah, I do wonderif you can talk us through how long have
regulators been awarethat SF6 gas is not great
for the environment?
And in what ways are peoplein the industry or businesses already
phasing out SF6?
I think, as I mentioned,because of those insulating
(14:07):
and temperature removal properties, it'svery difficult to replace.
But I think the industry is well awareof how harmful SF6 can be
for the environment.
And I think we're seeing a lot of pushesin terms of technological development
in the entire sector to really try to movetowards more environmentally
friendly opportunities, and that's exactlythe purpose of our EconiQ portfolio.
(14:28):
Now, of course,you can't just swap one gas for another.
These circuit breakers are designedwith such precision, such intricacies
that you need to redevelopsome of those technologies.
And that's currently what we're reallypushing here at Hitachi Energy
is to to move forward with our environmentas being a big priority.
Because you've been talking about
how fluorine is being usedin these different capacities.
(14:51):
It makes me want to ask you about PFAS,is that, am I saying– PFAS PFAS okay.
And PFAS and then PFOAS?
Yeah.
Can you help us understand what those areand what brought those
to the forefront of consumerhealth and safety?
Yeah, I think it's a really hot topicright now to talk about PFAS.
First of all, I'll define, so PFAS standsfor Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances.
(15:17):
Now this is really the timeI'd love to have a whiteboard
and a marker and just be ableto, to kind of share with everybody.
But these are carbon-based substances thatare highly substituted with fluorines.
So, they have a lot of fluorineattached to them.
Now, these are manmade chemicals.
They're designed to be very robustin harsh environments.
For instance, in the circuit breaker,it can reach 19,000 degrees.
(15:40):
We need chemicalsthat are going to be able
to withstand these temperaturesin these harsh conditions.
PFAS are also designed.
They have a tendency to be very inert.
They don't reactwith many other compounds.
They make very good coatings, for instancewaterproofing for jackets,
stain resistant carpets, milk containers.
Another common one is in pizza boxes sothat the cardboard doesn't get too greasy.
(16:03):
They have a PFAS coating.
They're abundantly used in consumer goods,
in industry, in medical sector,really all over.
And I think that we want a quickand easy answer.
We want to say no PFAS or all PFAS.
We want to make it a bit more simple.
And my heart goes out to the regulatorsbecause it's such a challenging topic.
(16:23):
Even, for instance,the way we define PFAS is different.
The European Union has a very broaddefinition of PFAS.
The U.S.
has many definitions of what PFAS are.
For instance,the Toxic Controlled Substance Act in
the United States has a very narrowdefinition of what PFAS is,
and that narrow definition encompassesmore than 12,000 different chemicals.
(16:45):
Right.
I think when you look at 12,000of anything as a chemist,
some of those are goingto be very harmful, like PFOA,
and some of them are going to benot so harmful like
PTFE, Teflon;it's a coating for your frying pans.
We use it in our circuit breakers.
And I think it's hard tosometimes distinguish this nuance,
even as a chemist,even as an expert in the field.
(17:07):
And I think it really depends onhow we're using these substances
and how we're disposingof these substances. Right.
As a consumer in the world,I'm actually quite concerned
with the number of PFAS that we havein our food products, in our clothing.
Those types of consumer good productshave high contact with human beings.
They also have very high likelinessof being disposed in landfills,
(17:29):
where those PFAS can then enter our watersystems, which I think is concerning.
However, on the flip side,the ways that we use them,
I know in our circuit breakertechnologies,
I think it would be concerningif we didn't use those.
Removing some PFASfrom this really installed
infrastructure has a lot of negativesafety implications,
which really, I think, add to the nuanceand complexity of this issue.
(17:51):
And is there the same sort of initiativeto try
and replace more hazardous PFAS in a waythat is similar
to how people are tryingto replace the use of SF6?
Yeah, I think that PFAS is a little bitmore complicated
because it's not a set of certainapplications.
(18:11):
A lot of SF6 is used in ourelectrical equipment as an insulating gas.
It's similar circumstances.
PFAS is really used,like I said, in the automotive industry,
in the medical industry,in the energy sector, in clothing
and all these types of products,it's very diverse.
So I think that we really need to workon strategies that focus differently
(18:33):
for maybe industrysectors versus for consumer goods.
And like you said, there's also beenattention towards how these chemicals
are disposed of or the safety precautionsaround factories, etc..
How much of your work is interfacingwith how chemicals are safely disposed of?
I know that in the States
and probably in other countries,there have been issues around PFAS leaking
(18:55):
into drinking water and causingall sorts of health issues for people.
Absolutely.
I think especially when we have spills
from chemical manufacturers,that's one of the most concerning
PFAS contaminations possible, especiallywhen it's in consumer drinking water.
These compounds, again,it depends on the type of PFAS.
But they also can be very harmfulfor individuals,
(19:18):
and they have a high likelinessfor contaminating waterways because,
like I said, we designed these chemicalsto be resistant, inert, to not break down.
And so when they get into our waterways,
they're resistant, inert,and they don't break down.
So they are persistent chemicals.
And so I think that the way we recycle
(19:38):
and dispose of these chemicalsis one of the most important factors.
And just to kind of circle back,that's again
a major component
why we need to mitigate the amountin consumer goods,
because it's hard to controlhow those are disposed of.
Whereas for instance,in the medical sector and in the energy
sector here at Hitachi Energy,we have strict procedures
for how equipment is handled,that end of product life.
(20:00):
We also have high product life spans.
A lot of our productsare meant to last 60 years,
and they're only operatedby trained professionals,
so we can properly control and disposeof any compounds that are used.
Whereas in some other sectorsit's very hard to control
how they will be disposed of.
Yeah.
Additionally you mentioned PFOA. Yeah.
(20:21):
So this compound has something inchemistry called a carboxylic acid group.
And so this group is going to be slightlywater loving.
A lot of these PFAS are hydrophobicwhich means they don't like water.
For instance PTFE – a Teflon panyou know is,
if you put a water drop on it,you can see a bubble.
It's very resistant to water,
(20:43):
whereas some of these other carboxylicacid based PFAS groups are going to have
a slightly higher affinityfor water than these Teflon compounds.
And so they can be very challenging toremove from the water and very expensive.
And I think that can pose a lot of harm.
So we need to take into account
the physical stateand chemical structure of these compounds
(21:05):
as part of our strategiesfor how to safely handle these materials.
Considering what we've talked aboutwith the dangers of PFAS and PFOAS
and SF6, for that matter, how has all ofthat knowledge of how those gases operate
and the dangers that they pose informedhow you go about creating this new gas?
(21:26):
So there is one component of our EconiQgas that is considered a PFAS.
And really that's becausewith these incredibly harsh conditions
that we need to meet in this,these circuit breaker technologies,
it's currently unavoidable to us.
But what we've done is we've been ableto orchestrate the designs
that we’re actually,instead of using 100% of a PFAS
(21:49):
or other F-gas,we're now only using 3 to 5%.
So we've really tried to reduceas much as possible
the amount of these compoundsthat we are using.
Yeah.
We are really proudof our EconiQ technology
because by utilizing that3 to 5% of a PFAS gas,
we can actually reduce the global warmingpotential associated with this technology
by 99% comparedto the only other available transmission
(22:14):
high voltage breaker on the market,which is utilizing SF6 technology.
In addition, we've done third partyvalidated lifecycle assessments,
which show we have the lowest carbonfootprint on the market.
Yeah, I get the sense that you arean ambitious and positive
force here at Hitachi Energy.
Well, thank you very much.
My background is making solar panels.
(22:34):
Clean technology is kind ofat the forefront of my motivations.
Yeah.
Rebecka, if there was one thingyou would like our listeners
to take away from our discussion today,what would that be?
Letting me talk, the thing I love most.
I think I would have to pull from a bookI love by Adam Grant called Think Again.
Now, he encourages us to thinklike scientists.
(22:55):
He says we need to gather information.
We need to be curious, and we need torethink some of our held beliefs.
As humans, we’re badat trying to contradict our own beliefs.
So sometimes seeking informationthat goes against maybe something
we already think can be really valuablefor our learning process.
When we think like scientistsa little bit more,
we can kind of start to break downsome of that nuance.
(23:18):
I think in today's society,with Instagram and TikTok,
we are always wanting those bold,punchy statements.
We want something to be all goodor something to be all bad.
But in science and in chemistry,not all chemicals are bad.
Not all chemicals are good.
And so I think it's really interesting tokind of dive in, learn a little bit more.
And I really want to iterate
(23:39):
that you don't have to be a scientistto think like a scientist.
I love that.
Empowers us all to be a scientist andgather information from various sources
and inspect where the data is coming fromor who's paying for it, etc..
Absolutely.
And I think when we think about Instagramand TikTok, the goal
for those individuals isn't to give youaccurate, representative information.
(24:02):
It's to keep you on the appand to keep you engaged.
So sometimes that's not the bestresources for our learning.
And to also understandreally complex topics
like PFAS that have a lot of nuanceand have a lot of depth.
And I think one thingwe do need to be really conscientious of
is to make sure when we removea harmful chemical and replace it,
that we're not using a bad alternative,something's just as harmful,
(24:25):
and we're replacing something badwith something bad,
then we're not any net further ahead.Yeah.
So I think also really trying to becognizant and and really thinking through
how are we goingto replace these compounds
and how do we do itsafely and effectively.
Beautifully said.
Well, thanks so much for joining ustoday, Rebecka.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Well thank you so much for having me.
(24:45):
I think I enjoyed thisas much as I hope the audience will.
You’re very welcome.
You've given us great clarity on SF6and how to navigate the other
chemical alternativeswe're encountering today and in the world,
and in the pursuit of efficiencyas well as sustainability.
Thanks for tuning in to this episode ofPower Pulse.
Until next time.
And that's it for today.
(25:06):
We'll be back soonwith some more great content.
But before you go,remember to give us a follow
so you don't miss an episode.
Thanks for tuning in. See you soon!
This episode was brought to you by HitachiEnergy.
Createdand introduced by Bárbara Freitas-Daniels.
Content and scriptwriting by Cassandra Inay.
Guest speaker, Rebecka Forward.
Hosted by Sam Dash.
(25:26):
Produced and edited by Creative Chimps.
High voltage takes center stagein this season of Hitachi
Energy's Power Pulse podcast.
We promise to bring you great contentfrom the brightest minds in the business.
We'll discuss challenges, opportunities,and all the hot topics
any high voltage enthusiast
or anyone interested in sustainabilityfor that matter, is sure to enjoy.
In this episode of the podcast,you will meet Rebecka Forward,
Hitachi Energy'sProduct Material Compliance Manager.
(00:24):
Rebecka holds two chemistry degrees,both earned in her home country of Canada.
She has a strong passionfor chemistry and loves
that it can be found anywhere you look.
She loves it so much,
she spent a few yearsteaching undergraduate students
and helping them understandits intricacies.
Rebecka's primary focus is ensuring thathigh voltage products adhere to global
materials regulations, guaranteeingtheir safety for our valued customers and
(00:45):
the environment.
Welcome back to Power Pulse.
I'm your host, Sam Dash, and todayI'm speaking with Rebecka Forward,
Product Material Compliance Manager.
Hi, Rebecka. Hi. So glad to be here today.
Thank you for having me.
You're welcome.
So, Rebecka,you are a chemist by training.
You studied at Queen's Universityand University of British Columbia.
(01:08):
What did you enjoy most about yourtraining at that stage of your career?
I think I've always been a bit of a nerd.
Chemistry was my favorite subjectin high school, and so getting to study it
and explore it more as I got a bitolder was just really interesting for me.
It's always been a big passion.
I think there's so much to learn.
I think there's a lot of intricacieswhen you look at things
(01:28):
at that small of a space, andso always have been a point of interest.
Now, I remember reading in your biothat you really enjoy the outdoors.
Absolutely.
Do you feel likethere was some sort of connection
for you between your love of chemistryand your love of the outdoors?
Did those feel like they overlappedfor you?
To be honest, I think I do see them askind of two different worlds that I love.
(01:51):
But I think when you kind oflook at the world itself,
you can always break it into chemistry,physics and mathematics, you know?
Yeah.
I think that's kind of the beauty
of like exploration and being outdoorsis that you can kind of explain
all of the things in the natural worldusing chemistry, physics and mathematics.
Yeah, I love that.
Let's get into more of the chemistry.
(02:12):
First things first.
The ‘F’ in F-gasstands for fluoride or fluorine.
Is that right? Yes. It'snever what people think it is.
It's definitely fluorine.
So what exactly is fluorine?
It's an element on the periodic table.
It's always at the top right corner.
And so that also can tell us a bitabout the properties.
One of the properties of being at the topright corner, it means it loves electron
(02:35):
density – really wants to pull electrondensity towards it.
And that's actually one of the properties
that's going to make it such a good gasfor high voltage equipment.
And is it true that tennis ballsused to be filled with SF6?
I was actually just as surprised as youwhen I came across that little tidbit.
It's actually true.
They don't do it anymore, obviously,for the environmental reasons.
(02:58):
But actually, if you kind of thinkabout a helium balloon,
you know, after a few daysthat helium kind of dissipates, right?
And that's
because most materials you can kind oflook at as a bit like a cheese
grater, there's a little bit of holesin between everything.
And when you have something like heliumgas that's really, really tiny,
it can move through those holesin the cheese grater pretty quickly.
(03:18):
Whereas SF6,if you think about it, it’s sulfur
with six fluorines,it's quite a large molecule.
And so I think the incentive wasif they put these larger gas molecules,
it'll be harder to go through those holesin the cheese grater
and it'll stay at a higher pressurefor longer, and your tennis ball will work
a little better.
I love that analogy of the cheese grater.
I feel like that's such a great visualfor our listeners.
(03:39):
So you said sulfurand that refers to the ‘S’ in SF6.
Yeah.
And you've described a bitwhat fluorine is like as a component.
Yeah. What is sulfur like?
How would you describe sulfur?
In the periodic table, it's actuallystructured in such an intelligent way.
We get information from the rowsthat the element is in the periodic table
(04:01):
and the columns.
And so sulfur is just one below oxygenon the periodic table.
So have some similar propertiesbut a much – I guess
– lower affinity for electron densitythan in something like oxygen.
And what makes it such a good pairwith fluorine?
So sulfur is a bit of a larger atom.
It's one row down in the periodic table,which means it's a little bit
(04:21):
bigger, has a little bitmore electron density.
Some of those electronsaren't being held on so tightly.
So it can share a little bit more of thatelectron density with fluorine.
And fluorine likes that because fluorine’s
a little greedy, really wants to hold onto all that electron density.
Then it works as a good pair.
Got it.
Got it.
A good but at times not necessarilythe safest pair.
Definitely.
(04:42):
It really depends onhow you're using these compounds.
Yeah. Absolutely.
So I've heard that also SF6 may be used
in eye surgeryto help repair damaged retinas.
Is that right?
Well I'm no ophthalmologist,so please don't quote me on this one,
but it's actually a very similar analogyto the cheese grater.
So when you have just undergone surgery,you want to kind of fill the eye
(05:05):
with a bit of gas to kind of protectand allow time for that to repair.
If you use something like helium,it would dissipate really quickly
and not give the tissuethe time it needed to repair.
Now, SF6 is actually nontoxic for humans,
which is also one of the factorsof why it was used so readily.
So it's nontoxic.It won't absorb into the skin.
It won't hurt you as a person,but it gives the eye the time to heal
(05:26):
because it can't get through those cheesegrater holes.
Yeah, right.
Obviously you had your trainingin university, but have you also gathered
some of this knowledgethrough your experience at Hitachi Energy?
Yeah, I mean,you spend a lot of time at university
and a little bit more time than anyoneelse wants to spend working on chemistry.
But then
also just with my past experiences,I worked at a contract research company,
(05:49):
got a huge amount of diverse experience
learningabout these different compounds there.
And then when I came to Hitachi Energy,it was a nice opportunity
to really focus on,like the specifics and dive into a niche.
And so I have a lot of really intelligentcoworkers in the R&D team
that have taught meso much of what I know,
and that'show I can kind of talk about it now.
There's a lot of collaborationwith my colleagues,
but it's been really interestingto learn about.
(06:11):
Yeah, I love how it sounds like everyonesort of shares
their knowledge, and it's very,a communal environment.
Absolutely.
It's one of the things I like the mostabout working here – is really working
with some truly intelligent, smart,interesting people.
Each expert that we've spoken to so farhere at the table,
they've explainedhow bad SF6 is for the planet.
(06:32):
I'm wonderingwhat are the exact documented drawbacks of
SF6 that you're aware of?
The biggest drawback of SF6 is its highglobal warming potential,
or people refer to it as GWP, and so it'squite harmful for the environment.
So why don't we dive into a little bitabout what that actually means.
Of course we have the sunwhich shines down light or heat.
(06:53):
I’ll kind of use them interchangeably,but shines heat onto the Earth.
And now that's going to be readilyreflected back.
And so that's maybe on glaciers, on snow,on any other highly reflective surface
on the Earth.
Then that heat gets reflected anddissipates into space naturally cooling.
Right? We're removing some heat.
When we have a lot of high global warmingpotential molecules in the atmosphere,
(07:16):
those molecules absorbthat heat and can re-irradiate it.
So you almost get this ricochet effectwhere it's kind of bouncing between
these molecules in the atmosphere,back to Earth,
back to the molecules back to Earth,
so that heat isn't getting dissipatedinto space.
It's staying around the Earth and slowlycontributing to increase in temperature.
With a sort of fair visual be almost asif you have two mirrors- Exactly.
(07:41):
Sort of facing each other.Is that right? Absolutely.
You could picture me in spaceand you on the ground,
and we're just ricocheting this backand forth.
And it’s unable to escape. Is that right?
Yeah. Yeah.
So there's two major factorsthat kind of contribute
to how high a global warmingpotential gas can have.
And so the first one is how much heatit can absorb.
(08:01):
And the other ishow much of it is in the atmosphere.
Funnily enough, water vapor
is actually a really strong greenhouse gasbecause it can absorb a lot of heat.
But as we've all learned in school,
water in oceans and rivers gets vaporizeda little bit into the atmosphere.
Then it condenses in cloudsand it comes down as snow or rain.
That cycle is actually relativelyvery short, so it mitigates
(08:24):
the amount of time that this water vaporis in the atmosphere.
So it absorbs heat very well,but it doesn't stick around for very long.
Right. Now SF6 is not that situation.
SF6 is very good at absorbing heatand it stays in the atmosphere
for a very long time.
One thing that seems consistent acrossevery grid, across the world
is that they all seem to rely on SF6to varying degrees.
(08:46):
What are the alternatives for a circuitbreaker that has been using SF6 reliably?
It's a really good questionand it's also a bit complex.
So why don't I break it upinto a couple of components.
First off, one of our major uses of SF6is in the circuit breaker.
And so you can think of a circuit breakervery much like a fuse
but for an energy grid systemrather than for your home.
(09:07):
The fundamentals of the circuit breakeris there's two pins,
and when connected, electricitycan easily flow between them.
When you have some typeof electrical disturbance,
maybe a lightning bolt,and you need to stop the flow
of electricity to protect the grid,
you can separate these two pinsand stop the flow of electricity.
So is that for instance, like,
you know, I think I grew up learningthat you should unplug things
(09:29):
like your computerwhen there's going to be a lightning storm
or something like that,so that there isn't a surge of electricity
that burns out your computers,that what we're talking about.
Exactly.
And if we have the interruptionof electricity properly,
then you don't have to worry about thatelectrical surge.
Basically, when we're workingwith some high voltage applications,
(09:49):
when you separate these pins,you can actually have electricity kind of
jumping between these two pins –that would be called an electrical arc.
And this is where we use these insulatinggases to mitigate this occurrence.
Right.
And so the gases have two primaryfunctions.
One is the property of being insulating.
You can kind of think about thislike for instance in your home
(10:09):
when you're cookingyou're going to use a metal frying pan.
The metal conducts electricity very well.
It conducts heat very well.And you can use it for cooking your food.
Yeah.
Whereas something like plasticor rubber is very insulating
and therefore you can't have electricitymoving through it.
So you can think of these insulating gasesalmost as a gaseous rubber.
It's hard for electricity to movethrough it so it can help prevent an arc.
(10:31):
It acts as an obstacle.Is that right? Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's harder to run through that difficultmaterial.
It's really pushing you back,giving you some resistance.
And the second function iswhen the arc has formed.
It's very dependenton how hot it is to maintain that arc.
So in order to quench it, you want toremove heat as quickly as possible.
You want a molecule that can readilyabsorb heat and dissipate it,
(10:53):
which if that rings any bells,it sounds very similar to what's happening
when these molecules are in the atmosphereabsorbing a lot of heat.
Right. Right.
So we're designing themfor these certain applications.
And so SF6 is a very good insulator
and it's also very goodat dissipating heat away from the arc.
That's a very difficult set of particularproperties to try to replace.
(11:14):
And so what we've doneactually is use an eco-gas mixture
with multiple different gases that eachhave these individual properties.
And we can use themin very specific ratios to kind of create
a mixture that can do the whole function.
Some of these gases individuallycouldn't be used in the pure sense
because maybe one is good at insulatingbut it's bad at heat removal.
(11:35):
Right.
Or maybe one's good at heat removal,but it's bad at insulation.
So you have to come up
with your own recipethat uses the best function of each gas.
Exactly.
Again, those very smart R&Dscientists have managed to find a recipe
where they can adjust those specificationsso that they can get a 99% reduction
in the global warming potential comparedto SF6, but maintain the properties
(11:56):
that are required for a safeand operating electrical grid system.
Sort of keeping up the efficacy of SF6.
Absolutely.
Without the dangers.
Yeah, because it's really non-negotiablein our field.
We have to make products that are safe.
So we need to maintain the quality.
But it's also,you know, it's so important to try to work
towards more environmentally friendlyalternatives.
(12:17):
Rebecka,you mentioned earlier this term eco-gas.
Can you tell us what is an eco-gas?
The eco-gas we use or we call itEconiQ is a mixture of different gases.
And just to kind of circle backthis is to meet those properties
of the insulating capacity that we needand the heat dissipation properties
to when we mix all these different gasestogether,
(12:37):
we get the same functional propertiesrequired that we would for SF6.
The difference is – aswe were again talking global warming
potential –our eco-gas has one fluorinated gas in it.
C4 fluoronitrile.
This gas dissipatesin the environment in 30 years
and it degrades into readily availablenatural byproducts.
So the lifetime is relatively lowin comparison to SF6, SF6 stays around
(13:01):
for over 3000 years in the environment.
So when we do a comparison,you can really see that not all F-gases
are the same.
There's even nuancebetween this category F-gas.
And when you say the componentin EconiQ breaks down
into natural compounds,what does that mean?
These PFAS or these fluorinated compoundsare manmade chemicals.
(13:21):
But when this one manmade chemicalis released into the environment,
it actually splits apartinto other different compounds.
And those compoundsyou find naturally in the environment.
If something breaks down
into natural compounds, doesthat ensure a certain level of safety?
I think in comparisonto these manmade fluoro-chemicals,
they are inherently less hazardousfor this particular example.
(13:45):
Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong.
Is this EconiQ?
This is our EconiQ.
Yeah.
Yeah, I do wonderif you can talk us through how long have
regulators been awarethat SF6 gas is not great
for the environment?
And in what ways are peoplein the industry or businesses already
phasing out SF6?
I think, as I mentioned,because of those insulating
(14:07):
and temperature removal properties, it'svery difficult to replace.
But I think the industry is well awareof how harmful SF6 can be
for the environment.
And I think we're seeing a lot of pushesin terms of technological development
in the entire sector to really try to movetowards more environmentally
friendly opportunities, and that's exactlythe purpose of our EconiQ portfolio.
(14:28):
Now, of course,you can't just swap one gas for another.
These circuit breakers are designedwith such precision, such intricacies
that you need to redevelopsome of those technologies.
And that's currently what we're reallypushing here at Hitachi Energy
is to to move forward with our environmentas being a big priority.
Because you've been talking about
how fluorine is being usedin these different capacities.
(14:51):
It makes me want to ask you about PFAS,is that, am I saying– PFAS PFAS okay.
And PFAS and then PFOAS?
Yeah.
Can you help us understand what those areand what brought those
to the forefront of consumerhealth and safety?
Yeah, I think it's a really hot topicright now to talk about PFAS.
First of all, I'll define, so PFAS standsfor Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances.
(15:17):
Now this is really the timeI'd love to have a whiteboard
and a marker and just be ableto, to kind of share with everybody.
But these are carbon-based substances thatare highly substituted with fluorines.
So, they have a lot of fluorineattached to them.
Now, these are manmade chemicals.
They're designed to be very robustin harsh environments.
For instance, in the circuit breaker,it can reach 19,000 degrees.
(15:40):
We need chemicalsthat are going to be able
to withstand these temperaturesin these harsh conditions.
PFAS are also designed.
They have a tendency to be very inert.
They don't reactwith many other compounds.
They make very good coatings, for instancewaterproofing for jackets,
stain resistant carpets, milk containers.
Another common one is in pizza boxes sothat the cardboard doesn't get too greasy.
(16:03):
They have a PFAS coating.
They're abundantly used in consumer goods,
in industry, in medical sector,really all over.
And I think that we want a quickand easy answer.
We want to say no PFAS or all PFAS.
We want to make it a bit more simple.
And my heart goes out to the regulatorsbecause it's such a challenging topic.
(16:23):
Even, for instance,the way we define PFAS is different.
The European Union has a very broaddefinition of PFAS.
The U.S.
has many definitions of what PFAS are.
For instance,the Toxic Controlled Substance Act in
the United States has a very narrowdefinition of what PFAS is,
and that narrow definition encompassesmore than 12,000 different chemicals.
(16:45):
Right.
I think when you look at 12,000of anything as a chemist,
some of those are goingto be very harmful, like PFOA,
and some of them are going to benot so harmful like
PTFE, Teflon;it's a coating for your frying pans.
We use it in our circuit breakers.
And I think it's hard tosometimes distinguish this nuance,
even as a chemist,even as an expert in the field.
(17:07):
And I think it really depends onhow we're using these substances
and how we're disposingof these substances. Right.
As a consumer in the world,I'm actually quite concerned
with the number of PFAS that we havein our food products, in our clothing.
Those types of consumer good productshave high contact with human beings.
They also have very high likelinessof being disposed in landfills,
(17:29):
where those PFAS can then enter our watersystems, which I think is concerning.
However, on the flip side,the ways that we use them,
I know in our circuit breakertechnologies,
I think it would be concerningif we didn't use those.
Removing some PFASfrom this really installed
infrastructure has a lot of negativesafety implications,
which really, I think, add to the nuanceand complexity of this issue.
(17:51):
And is there the same sort of initiativeto try
and replace more hazardous PFAS in a waythat is similar
to how people are tryingto replace the use of SF6?
Yeah, I think that PFAS is a little bitmore complicated
because it's not a set of certainapplications.
(18:11):
A lot of SF6 is used in ourelectrical equipment as an insulating gas.
It's similar circumstances.
PFAS is really used,like I said, in the automotive industry,
in the medical industry,in the energy sector, in clothing
and all these types of products,it's very diverse.
So I think that we really need to workon strategies that focus differently
(18:33):
for maybe industrysectors versus for consumer goods.
And like you said, there's also beenattention towards how these chemicals
are disposed of or the safety precautionsaround factories, etc..
How much of your work is interfacingwith how chemicals are safely disposed of?
I know that in the States
and probably in other countries,there have been issues around PFAS leaking
(18:55):
into drinking water and causingall sorts of health issues for people.
Absolutely.
I think especially when we have spills
from chemical manufacturers,that's one of the most concerning
PFAS contaminations possible, especiallywhen it's in consumer drinking water.
These compounds, again,it depends on the type of PFAS.
But they also can be very harmfulfor individuals,
(19:18):
and they have a high likelinessfor contaminating waterways because,
like I said, we designed these chemicalsto be resistant, inert, to not break down.
And so when they get into our waterways,
they're resistant, inert,and they don't break down.
So they are persistent chemicals.
And so I think that the way we recycle
(19:38):
and dispose of these chemicalsis one of the most important factors.
And just to kind of circle back,that's again
a major component
why we need to mitigate the amountin consumer goods,
because it's hard to controlhow those are disposed of.
Whereas for instance,in the medical sector and in the energy
sector here at Hitachi Energy,we have strict procedures
for how equipment is handled,that end of product life.
(20:00):
We also have high product life spans.
A lot of our productsare meant to last 60 years,
and they're only operatedby trained professionals,
so we can properly control and disposeof any compounds that are used.
Whereas in some other sectorsit's very hard to control
how they will be disposed of.
Yeah.
Additionally you mentioned PFOA. Yeah.
(20:21):
So this compound has something inchemistry called a carboxylic acid group.
And so this group is going to be slightlywater loving.
A lot of these PFAS are hydrophobicwhich means they don't like water.
For instance PTFE – a Teflon panyou know is,
if you put a water drop on it,you can see a bubble.
It's very resistant to water,
(20:43):
whereas some of these other carboxylicacid based PFAS groups are going to have
a slightly higher affinityfor water than these Teflon compounds.
And so they can be very challenging toremove from the water and very expensive.
And I think that can pose a lot of harm.
So we need to take into account
the physical stateand chemical structure of these compounds
(21:05):
as part of our strategiesfor how to safely handle these materials.
Considering what we've talked aboutwith the dangers of PFAS and PFOAS
and SF6, for that matter, how has all ofthat knowledge of how those gases operate
and the dangers that they pose informedhow you go about creating this new gas?
(21:26):
So there is one component of our EconiQgas that is considered a PFAS.
And really that's becausewith these incredibly harsh conditions
that we need to meet in this,these circuit breaker technologies,
it's currently unavoidable to us.
But what we've done is we've been ableto orchestrate the designs
that we’re actually,instead of using 100% of a PFAS
(21:49):
or other F-gas,we're now only using 3 to 5%.
So we've really tried to reduceas much as possible
the amount of these compoundsthat we are using.
Yeah.
We are really proudof our EconiQ technology
because by utilizing that3 to 5% of a PFAS gas,
we can actually reduce the global warmingpotential associated with this technology
by 99% comparedto the only other available transmission
(22:14):
high voltage breaker on the market,which is utilizing SF6 technology.
In addition, we've done third partyvalidated lifecycle assessments,
which show we have the lowest carbonfootprint on the market.
Yeah, I get the sense that you arean ambitious and positive
force here at Hitachi Energy.
Well, thank you very much.
My background is making solar panels.
(22:34):
Clean technology is kind ofat the forefront of my motivations.
Yeah.
Rebecka, if there was one thingyou would like our listeners
to take away from our discussion today,what would that be?
Letting me talk, the thing I love most.
I think I would have to pull from a bookI love by Adam Grant called Think Again.
Now, he encourages us to thinklike scientists.
(22:55):
He says we need to gather information.
We need to be curious, and we need torethink some of our held beliefs.
As humans, we’re badat trying to contradict our own beliefs.
So sometimes seeking informationthat goes against maybe something
we already think can be really valuablefor our learning process.
When we think like scientistsa little bit more,
we can kind of start to break downsome of that nuance.
(23:18):
I think in today's society,with Instagram and TikTok,
we are always wanting those bold,punchy statements.
We want something to be all goodor something to be all bad.
But in science and in chemistry,not all chemicals are bad.
Not all chemicals are good.
And so I think it's really interesting tokind of dive in, learn a little bit more.
And I really want to iterate
(23:39):
that you don't have to be a scientistto think like a scientist.
I love that.
Empowers us all to be a scientist andgather information from various sources
and inspect where the data is coming fromor who's paying for it, etc..
Absolutely.
And I think when we think about Instagramand TikTok, the goal
for those individuals isn't to give youaccurate, representative information.
(24:02):
It's to keep you on the appand to keep you engaged.
So sometimes that's not the bestresources for our learning.
And to also understandreally complex topics
like PFAS that have a lot of nuanceand have a lot of depth.
And I think one thingwe do need to be really conscientious of
is to make sure when we removea harmful chemical and replace it,
that we're not using a bad alternative,something's just as harmful,
(24:25):
and we're replacing something badwith something bad,
then we're not any net further ahead.Yeah.
So I think also really trying to becognizant and and really thinking through
how are we goingto replace these compounds
and how do we do itsafely and effectively.
Beautifully said.
Well, thanks so much for joining ustoday, Rebecka.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Well thank you so much for having me.
(24:45):
I think I enjoyed thisas much as I hope the audience will.
You’re very welcome.
You've given us great clarity on SF6and how to navigate the other
chemical alternativeswe're encountering today and in the world,
and in the pursuit of efficiencyas well as sustainability.
Thanks for tuning in to this episode ofPower Pulse.
Until next time.
And that's it for today.
(25:06):
We'll be back soonwith some more great content.
But before you go,remember to give us a follow
so you don't miss an episode.
Thanks for tuning in. See you soon!
This episode was brought to you by HitachiEnergy.
Createdand introduced by Bárbara Freitas-Daniels.
Content and scriptwriting by Cassandra Inay.
Guest speaker, Rebecka Forward.
Hosted by Sam Dash.
(25:26):
Produced and edited by Creative Chimps.
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