October 25, 2024 • 24 mins
Harvard Professor John Stauffer joins us to discuss the history of “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” and its significance and meanings for American culture. He shows that it’s a song that unites and divides the country, and that it has been used by many different groups in American social and political life. It’s a fascinating interview that takes the song all the way from its origins as “Say, Brothers…” to the union song, “Solidarity Forever,” and its use by the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s. A wonderful show! Episode 572.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hello, everyone's Professor Buzzkill. I really hope you've been enjoying
this Julia Ward Howe Battle Him of the Republic week,
and we're capping it off really with Professor John Staffer
from Harvard whose book, whose co author book with Benjamins
hoskis The Battle Hymn of the Republic, A biography of
the song that marches on is really the most important
(00:36):
book in my view, about the song and about its
long history. Professor, thank you so much for coming on
the show.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
It's great to be on the show. Thank you for
inviting me.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
You know, of the many great things in the book,
one thing that really stands out to me is something
that you mentioned in the very very beginning when you're
talking about the Battle Hymn, and you say, for if
it is celebrated the sense of mission and national exceptionalism
that have found Americas together in times of trial, it
(01:07):
is also highlighted and even deepened the fractures running through
those ideas as I read the book. This was from
the introduction. As I read the book that kept coming
back to me, and it really showed me that, as
I've been saying in other shows this week, it really
is perhaps our most important song, if you're gonna choose one.
(01:28):
And that theme keeps coming up in all the various
versions of the song.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, I mean, as we say, it's a kind of
national anthem, it's an unofficial national anthem. What we suggest
is that in what way is it an unofficial national anthem.
It's a song that both unites and divide. It clarifies
the US versus them, the good guys and the bad guys,
(01:54):
which has long been an aspect I think of the
United States national identity. And it's an I mean the
song was written during war. It's an ideal song for
a nation at war, whether it's actual warfare or whether
it's an ideological warfare. It's a song that encourages sacrifice
as part of this way of regenerating or building a nation.
(02:17):
And it's why Julia Ward Howe writes the lyrics during
war that captures this unity, division, courage, national identity at
a time of fracture. I mean the Southern States has
succeeded formed its own separate nation. And I mean there's
(02:38):
actually been an effort of a form of secession, whether
it's the Texit movement of Texas, seceeding the cal Exit
movement from California trying to secede. I mean that's still
with us. So it's a song that, in the largest sense,
highlights the fragility of a democracy. Democracies can be unstable.
They're fragile. It requires literally, see, it requires an ability
(03:01):
to accept the will of the majority, no matter how
passionate or fervent you are in your vision of society.
That the democracy requires, as I said, the will of
the majority. And that's a hard thing to accept.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yes, And it's so astounding that in many ways it
highlights the fragility or it's history of the history of
the song highlights the fragility of the nation because it's
such a strong song, you know, the battle hymn, Mine
eyes have Seen the Glory.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yes, yes, no, that's true. It's it is a very
strong it's a I mean it's a military song. I
mean it's it's a military song that's framed from by
what Julie Ward has framed through a religious language. I
mean she knew her Bible well, I mean in Julia
Ward How's vision. And that happens also today God is
(03:50):
eminent and and dwelling God can affect the affairs of
the world and especially the United States. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Hence, you know, God is on our side. God, that's
what it could be, both sides, and as we point out,
you know, it's been multiple sides. So it also reflects
the connection between the United States as democracy in the
United States as a religious place. I mean, the United
States still is. There's been a decline in religiosity based
(04:19):
on scholars of religion who do analyzes, but there was,
for you know, one hundred years, the majority of Americans,
the vast majority, over ninety percent for one hundred years,
said that they believed in God without doubting the existence
of God, and over fifty percent, for a long period
of time, fifty percent of the population attended church church's
(04:41):
equivalent regularly, meaning every other week or more. It's declined
a lot in the past fifteen years for a variety
of reasons, but that distinguishes us from virtually every other
developed nation. So religion has historically, religion has been inseparable
from the very mean and understanding of the United States.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because, as you
show early in the book, it starts off the melody anyways,
starts off as what's known as a camp meeting song,
and that those were often very religious.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yes, that's exactly right. Camp meetings were in the early Republic.
They were essentially churches without buildings. Ministers would organize a
huge crowd essentially in the woods in the wilderness, and
you know, they brought in men and women, whites and blacks.
(05:35):
Blocks were separated. And it's in that Southern camp meeting
that we discovered that the song originated as an African
American hymn, which is from the South, where enslaved people
sang say Brothers in camp meetings and on plantations at
times in a ring shout. A ring shot is an
African religious ritual in which people gather in a circle, sing, dance,
(05:59):
and sing lines of scripture using a call in response form,
and Glory, Glory, Hallelujah from the beginning was part of
the chorus.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
And it is absolutely fascinating, as our listeners heard in
yesterday's show as it was sung. Then, of course, I
think one of the reasons, I don't it's hard to
find any direct evidence for this, but I think one
of the reasons that it becomes taken up for the
melody for John Brown's Body is because the melody is
so catchy, but also because it's been it's so well
(06:32):
known from these camp meetings. How does the John Brown's
Body version develops?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Say brothers, will you meet us on Kanaan Sappy Shore
was the original version of the song, circulated in hymn
books in eighteen forties eighteen fifties. By eighteen sixty one,
it migrated to the North. In eighteen sixty one, Say Brothers,
will you meet us on Caanaan Sappy Shore was popular
in Boston, which was the cultural center of the country
at that point, and it became John Brown's Body with
(07:02):
the beginning of the Civil War in April of eighteen
sixty one. In the war started, a battalion called the
Tigers Battalion was established a fort Warren in Boston Harbor.
There was a Scottish immigrant who was part of that
battalion named John Brown, and he and his fellow soldiers
formed this choral group, and Conrad started needling him for
(07:25):
his name and saying essentially this, you can't be John Brown.
John Brown is dead. Because they're referencing John Brown, who
tries to take over the Federal Arsenal Harper's ferry, and
that would spark a massive slave revolution. In other words,
they would say John Brown is dead, and another soldier
said it his body is lying moldering in the grave.
(07:47):
And so you know, the soldiers, having time to create lines,
they created five stanzas and they said it to say brothers,
and that's how the song emerged. So by May of
eighteen sixty one, and the second Battalion became part of
the Massachusetts twelfth Regiment, made up of sons of wealthy
(08:07):
esteemed families, and John Brown's Body became the signature anthem
of the twelfth Battalion by August of eighteen sixty one.
Earlier in the war, John Brown's Body was the most
popular song in the Union army. And part of the
reason is that it's a very easy song to memorize.
It's a song that you can sing while you're marching.
(08:28):
You don't have to think about nuanced, long sentences as
you read it. And in the four years of the
Civil War, John Brown's Body remained the most popular song
by far.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And so it's not surprising therefore that when Julia Ward
Howe is out on her carriage ride yes with some
friends and colleagues. She hears the song and someone, well,
I don't want to tell the story, brother, have you
tell a story? You tell a story.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
So Julia Ward how first of all, is she was
considered unofficially the poetess of America. She was arguably least
is good as wittier and longfellow as a poet, widely
celebrated as a poet. She's the wife of Samuel Gridley Howe,
who had been a radical abolitionist. They didn't have a
great marriage. But she's in this carriage with James Freeman Clark,
(09:15):
her minister, and there's this review of troops. There's a skirmish,
a traffic jam, and as a way to pass the time,
Juliet has a beautiful voice. She sings John Brown's Body,
and James Freeman Clark basically says, that's such a great song, Julie,
you should elevate it, elevate the lyrics for essentially more
(09:38):
educated intellectuals. And Julie responds to her minister friend by senyel,
I've often thought of doing so, but I've done it.
She stays with her husband. She's at the Willards Hotel.
It's still a famous hotel and According to Julie Wardhouse,
she's the it's only her recollections that about which we know.
(09:59):
We don't know if it's how accurate it is. But
upshot is, she says. She goes to sleep, she wakes
up in the middle of the night and the John
Brown's Body song was already in her head, but all
five stanzas had already been written for her in essence
by God, and so she writes it down. In fact,
she's a Unitarian, so she's not normally it's not normally.
(10:22):
Unitarians are not normally someone who believes that they can
have direct relationships. Saily with God and Battle Him of
the Republic is published in The Atlantic Monthly on the
cover in February of eighteen sixty two. For the rest
of the war, though the John Brown's Body still remains
the most influential song.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
But Battle Him after the war then has its own
fascinating history in the reconstruction period and later. I was
very surprised to read in detail how often it was
used and how often it was if you will revived
even though the war was over and won.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, I think because of the war. Although the war
was won by the North, it was still present. It
was still ever present, which is one of the reasons
why it was popular. And Julie Ward Howe's Battle Him
essentially it came to replace John Brown's body in part
(11:19):
because at the end of the war, people wanted to
try to, if not forget it, to move on, and
so that's one of the reasons. So the fact that
John Brown's body gets sidelined and gets uncoupled from Battle
Him of the Republic makes Battle Him in the Republic
very popular. And what's interesting is that in the by
(11:42):
the eighteen eighties, Southerners start to appropriate the song as well,
which I still think is fascinating, and it was sung
at the White House. And the reason why Southerners could
embrace it is because Julie Ward Howe's version Battlehim the
Republic the language is symbolic, whereas John Brown's Body says
(12:04):
We're going to hang Jeff Davis from a sour apple
tree in Battleheim and the Republic. The lyrics lend themselves
to both the rebels and the North. Abolitionists and slave
owners are former pro slave owners. The song is about
fighting for God, fighting for freedom. Southerners saw themselves as
fighting for freedom, and so That's how and why it
(12:27):
became hugely popular in the South as well, because of
the lyrics. The tune was the same, the song was
the same. The lyrics opened the way for Southerners to
embrace it in a very different way.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
But that could be the end of it. It could
be a nineteenth century song, could be a song that
you know, yes, the war and the aftermath and all
of that stuff, but by the twentieth century and Industrial
Revolution and all sorts of stuff going on at a
high pace. You know, this sort of stuff could be
left in the background, right, But it wasn't. The Battle
hymn again endures into the tieth century. This blew my mind.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So one of the reasons again is Julie Wardhouse's lyrics.
But they are major figures who celebrated the song and
helped to disseminate it. One was Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt
was one of the most influential, almost evangelistic politicians in
early twentieth century, and The Battle of the Republic was
(13:24):
Teddy Roosevelt's favorite song. He saw it as a kind
of personal anthem. He was, you know, advocated strenuous life
and essentially a wartime form of American democracy, and he
advocates for battle Him of the Republic becoming the formal
national anthem, and that doesn't happen. But in a sense,
(13:47):
the fact that it's an unofficial anthem ironically makes it
even more popular. You don't have to be wedded to
the nation's official anthem. It can be your own as
well as the nation. It also, in fact became popular
in Britain in the beginning in the early twentieth century.
Churchill loved the song. In the late twentieth century, it
(14:10):
was probably the most popular form of A revision of
Battle Him of the Republic is Wobbley's The Industrial Workers
of the World. Beginning in the twentieth century, with the
rise of industrialization and the exploitation of workers, Battle Him
of the Republic was transformed into solidarity Forever and in
(14:31):
the song as we are the modern abolitionist fighting against
wade slavery, and that also contributed to the ongoing popularity
of Battlehem. Eugene Debs and Upton Sinclair loved the song.
It was their favorite songs, and then there were two
ministers too. But actually arguably the nation, certainly the nation's
(14:52):
most influential evangelist ministers, and they are Billy Sunday and
Billy Graham. And Billy Sunday and Billy Graham both doored
Battlehanm of the Republic. They saw it as the anthem
of their church, so to speak, their favorite song of
any form or any kind. In every revival that Sunday
(15:12):
and Graham gave, they performed Battlehanma the Republic.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yes, and we should remind buzz killers, especially those who
are from overseas. Billy Sunday was a famous preacher in
the early twentieth century. Former baseball player actually.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, professional baseball player.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's right. Yeah. And then Billy Graham was the most
important evangelical preacher in the US in the mid twentieth century,
really well into the eighties and nineties. But so the
fact that again the song is lasting more than one
hundred years.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah. So in fact, I was able to interview Billy
Graham's director of music. Oh yeah, he was very elderly,
and he was really helpful, and he said, and I
asked him, you know, why did Billy Graham adopt this song?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
And because after all, Billy Graham's a Southerner and all
sorts of.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Stuff that's right, and he said that the song exempl
exemplified Graham's message. That's how he answered it. And Billy
Graham's basic message is accepting Jesus as your savior and
that Jesus is your friend and savior and can be
(16:23):
within you. And the song, you know, God is a
central part of that song. His truth, his day, our
God is marching on is something that Billy Graham loved
because he recognized to evangelize the world was a kind
of war, essentially, almost a religious war of evangelizing the
(16:45):
world so that people become accept Jesus and as their savior.
And it also the song, and in fact, Billy Graham's
director of religion said that the song was able to
liberate Billy Graham from him his own Southern identity because
at the time when his ministry was growing, a lot
(17:05):
of people kind of called Billy Graham simply another Southern evangelical,
charismatic minister. And the song not only nationalized Billy Graham,
but then it helped him become famous around the world.
And the song traveled around the world as well. In fact,
when he went to Asia, when he went to other countries,
(17:27):
he would still have the chorus singing about him in
the Republic.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yeah, and by the way, for those of you who
haven't seen him, you can look him up on YouTube.
But his approach and his preaching style was very forceful.
It really is and charismatic. It really has this sort
of almost military battle says to it.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yes, I mean Billy Graham. He wrote about it too.
He trained like a pro athlete. As an order. He
had a few mottos. One is look him in the eye,
and he would practice that. He would practice looking at
a mirror and looking himself before he would give sermons
to a crowd. He was a brilliant order. He really was.
(18:06):
As a public speaker, Billy Graham was one of the
best in the twentieth century.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Well, and speaking of other orders, your final chapter is
entitled the African American Battle Him. Now, this doesn't refer
to what some people might think of as the battle
Hymn of the First the marching song of the First
Arkansas Regiment, which we've talked about in the previous show,
but talks about how it was used in the civil
rights movement in the twentieth century and then ultimately again
(18:31):
getting back to this order theme by Martin Luther King.
But when I was surprised, someone who was born and
grew up in the sixties, I expected this chapter read
mostly about the sixties, and then King using it famously
in his last speech in sermon right, his.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Last public words, his.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Last literally yeah yeah, But you show that it starts
much earlier than that, at least in the thirties, maybe
even before.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yes, it became partly because of the religious references in
the song comes. It's a song that it incorporates and
embraces and encourages anyone, any human, whether it's man or woman,
black or white. They become part of or they it's
easy for them to see the song as their own.
(19:16):
It's open ended. It doesn't specify a certain kind of
person that the song will attract. It's very open ended
so that audiences and singers can interpret it in radically
different ways. It's why it's been seen as a conservative song,
a radical revolutionary song, a black anthem, a white anthem.
(19:38):
I mean, you can go back to how I mean
the word. We're open ended enough so that anyone could
interpret them in multiple ways. The lyrics where the term
would be polycemic, it can have multiple different understandings or definitions.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yes, one of the things I found so wonderful about
this particular chapter is, you know, people might expect, yes,
the NAACP he uses it, snick a s NCC King's
great organization. But also you show, for instance that when
people in the Harlem Tenants League march protesting rents and
other discrimination in renting and all that sort of stuff,
(20:15):
they use it as well. So it's even down to
that sort of specific level, that's.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Right, And I think that's part of the beauty of
the song. And as I said, it's part of the
beauty of the song is that it encourages people to
specify then specific nature of their faith, both their faith
in God, but their faith in the nation or a
society as well.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Well, let me end up things by again, I don't
think i've ever done this quoted twice extensively from a
book that we've talked about on the show. But just
as you had that wonderful setup in the introduction, you
have a wonderful conclusion and a wonderful concluding sentence. And
if you don't mind, professor, I'm just going to read
it out. Okay, this is at the end of the
(21:00):
and it sums up everything and wraps up but also
makes us think towards the future. You say, the battle
Hymn reminds us that our most powerful visions of the
coming of the Lord are pierced by the gleaming of
the terrible swift sword. It reminds us as well that
beyond the wrath and the trampling and the sword, the
(21:20):
glory continues.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, Benjamin actually wrote that last line. It's magnificent, but
it's it captures the degree to which the song has
always been one that unites and divides. It's us versus them,
which clarifies who we are and who they are, which
captures a sense of national identity. It's an ideal song
for any nation at war. It encourages sacrifice, it's a
(21:46):
catalyst for social change with God's help, and it's also adaptable.
I mean, I'm still struck at the degree to which
the song can be interpreted in terms of violent song,
nonviolent song, postmal millennial, pre millennial, northern southern conservative radical.
I mean, people have interpreted that way and more. It
(22:07):
taps a kind of millennialist strain in American culture, meaning
that this, you know, there's a new dispensation, a new
age of peace and harmony and true democracy. How people
understand it in America? And I think probably mostly it's
an aspirational song. It's aspiration on that it inspires people,
(22:30):
It encourages them to try to be their best in
however terms. They understand that to be because it envisions
of future good society and a future good and better self.
And I think for those reasons it's why it has
remained hugely popular.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yes, and folks, I can't stress enough this book, The
Battle Hymn of the Republic, A Biography of the Song
that marches On, is really one of the most important
history of books I've read in recent years. I've really
come to believe that this is our best song, the
best American song. And you know, I'm sorry, Professor. I'm
just going to sing the praises of the way you
organize the book as well, because the appendix has what's
(23:12):
called the lyrical Lineage of the Battle Hymn of the Republic,
in which you reproduce as many possible versions of it
as you can, going all the way back to say
brothers and things like that, and so it's an excellent reference.
You're not just saying these things that this song has
all these versions and all these meanings. You're pointing the
reader to the direct lyrics, right.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
We really, we very much wanted to do that because
as a way of helping readers appreciate the multi valance
nature of the song.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Well, Professor, it just remains for me to thank both
of you, you and Professor Soskis for writing this wonderful book.
Please everyone, The book is on the Buzzkill bookshelf on
the blog posts related to this episode, And thank you
so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Thank you all. Play. One other thing that the song is,
It's a song of America's what a lot of scholars
have referred to as America's civil religion, meaning the way
in which Americans interpret God is helping them improve and
transform and achieve American democracy that God would want.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
I can't think of a better way to end this
episode than that. So all of you listeners out there,
we will talk to you next week.
Hello, everyone's Professor Buzzkill. I really hope you've been enjoying
this Julia Ward Howe Battle Him of the Republic week,
and we're capping it off really with Professor John Staffer
from Harvard whose book, whose co author book with Benjamins
hoskis The Battle Hymn of the Republic, A biography of
the song that marches on is really the most important
(00:36):
book in my view, about the song and about its
long history. Professor, thank you so much for coming on
the show.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
It's great to be on the show. Thank you for
inviting me.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
You know, of the many great things in the book,
one thing that really stands out to me is something
that you mentioned in the very very beginning when you're
talking about the Battle Hymn, and you say, for if
it is celebrated the sense of mission and national exceptionalism
that have found Americas together in times of trial, it
(01:07):
is also highlighted and even deepened the fractures running through
those ideas as I read the book. This was from
the introduction. As I read the book that kept coming
back to me, and it really showed me that, as
I've been saying in other shows this week, it really
is perhaps our most important song, if you're gonna choose one.
(01:28):
And that theme keeps coming up in all the various
versions of the song.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, I mean, as we say, it's a kind of
national anthem, it's an unofficial national anthem. What we suggest
is that in what way is it an unofficial national anthem.
It's a song that both unites and divide. It clarifies
the US versus them, the good guys and the bad guys,
(01:54):
which has long been an aspect I think of the
United States national identity. And it's an I mean the
song was written during war. It's an ideal song for
a nation at war, whether it's actual warfare or whether
it's an ideological warfare. It's a song that encourages sacrifice
as part of this way of regenerating or building a nation.
(02:17):
And it's why Julia Ward Howe writes the lyrics during
war that captures this unity, division, courage, national identity at
a time of fracture. I mean the Southern States has
succeeded formed its own separate nation. And I mean there's
(02:38):
actually been an effort of a form of secession, whether
it's the Texit movement of Texas, seceeding the cal Exit
movement from California trying to secede. I mean that's still
with us. So it's a song that, in the largest sense,
highlights the fragility of a democracy. Democracies can be unstable.
They're fragile. It requires literally, see, it requires an ability
(03:01):
to accept the will of the majority, no matter how
passionate or fervent you are in your vision of society.
That the democracy requires, as I said, the will of
the majority. And that's a hard thing to accept.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yes, And it's so astounding that in many ways it
highlights the fragility or it's history of the history of
the song highlights the fragility of the nation because it's
such a strong song, you know, the battle hymn, Mine
eyes have Seen the Glory.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yes, yes, no, that's true. It's it is a very
strong it's a I mean it's a military song. I
mean it's it's a military song that's framed from by
what Julie Ward has framed through a religious language. I
mean she knew her Bible well, I mean in Julia
Ward How's vision. And that happens also today God is
(03:50):
eminent and and dwelling God can affect the affairs of
the world and especially the United States. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Hence, you know, God is on our side. God, that's
what it could be, both sides, and as we point out,
you know, it's been multiple sides. So it also reflects
the connection between the United States as democracy in the
United States as a religious place. I mean, the United
States still is. There's been a decline in religiosity based
(04:19):
on scholars of religion who do analyzes, but there was,
for you know, one hundred years, the majority of Americans,
the vast majority, over ninety percent for one hundred years,
said that they believed in God without doubting the existence
of God, and over fifty percent, for a long period
of time, fifty percent of the population attended church church's
(04:41):
equivalent regularly, meaning every other week or more. It's declined
a lot in the past fifteen years for a variety
of reasons, but that distinguishes us from virtually every other
developed nation. So religion has historically, religion has been inseparable
from the very mean and understanding of the United States.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because, as you
show early in the book, it starts off the melody anyways,
starts off as what's known as a camp meeting song,
and that those were often very religious.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yes, that's exactly right. Camp meetings were in the early Republic.
They were essentially churches without buildings. Ministers would organize a
huge crowd essentially in the woods in the wilderness, and
you know, they brought in men and women, whites and blacks.
(05:35):
Blocks were separated. And it's in that Southern camp meeting
that we discovered that the song originated as an African
American hymn, which is from the South, where enslaved people
sang say Brothers in camp meetings and on plantations at
times in a ring shout. A ring shot is an
African religious ritual in which people gather in a circle, sing, dance,
(05:59):
and sing lines of scripture using a call in response form,
and Glory, Glory, Hallelujah from the beginning was part of
the chorus.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
And it is absolutely fascinating, as our listeners heard in
yesterday's show as it was sung. Then, of course, I
think one of the reasons, I don't it's hard to
find any direct evidence for this, but I think one
of the reasons that it becomes taken up for the
melody for John Brown's Body is because the melody is
so catchy, but also because it's been it's so well
(06:32):
known from these camp meetings. How does the John Brown's
Body version develops?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Say brothers, will you meet us on Kanaan Sappy Shore
was the original version of the song, circulated in hymn
books in eighteen forties eighteen fifties. By eighteen sixty one,
it migrated to the North. In eighteen sixty one, Say Brothers,
will you meet us on Caanaan Sappy Shore was popular
in Boston, which was the cultural center of the country
at that point, and it became John Brown's Body with
(07:02):
the beginning of the Civil War in April of eighteen
sixty one. In the war started, a battalion called the
Tigers Battalion was established a fort Warren in Boston Harbor.
There was a Scottish immigrant who was part of that
battalion named John Brown, and he and his fellow soldiers
formed this choral group, and Conrad started needling him for
(07:25):
his name and saying essentially this, you can't be John Brown.
John Brown is dead. Because they're referencing John Brown, who
tries to take over the Federal Arsenal Harper's ferry, and
that would spark a massive slave revolution. In other words,
they would say John Brown is dead, and another soldier
said it his body is lying moldering in the grave.
(07:47):
And so you know, the soldiers, having time to create lines,
they created five stanzas and they said it to say brothers,
and that's how the song emerged. So by May of
eighteen sixty one, and the second Battalion became part of
the Massachusetts twelfth Regiment, made up of sons of wealthy
(08:07):
esteemed families, and John Brown's Body became the signature anthem
of the twelfth Battalion by August of eighteen sixty one.
Earlier in the war, John Brown's Body was the most
popular song in the Union army. And part of the
reason is that it's a very easy song to memorize.
It's a song that you can sing while you're marching.
(08:28):
You don't have to think about nuanced, long sentences as
you read it. And in the four years of the
Civil War, John Brown's Body remained the most popular song
by far.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And so it's not surprising therefore that when Julia Ward
Howe is out on her carriage ride yes with some
friends and colleagues. She hears the song and someone, well,
I don't want to tell the story, brother, have you
tell a story? You tell a story.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
So Julia Ward how first of all, is she was
considered unofficially the poetess of America. She was arguably least
is good as wittier and longfellow as a poet, widely
celebrated as a poet. She's the wife of Samuel Gridley Howe,
who had been a radical abolitionist. They didn't have a
great marriage. But she's in this carriage with James Freeman Clark,
(09:15):
her minister, and there's this review of troops. There's a skirmish,
a traffic jam, and as a way to pass the time,
Juliet has a beautiful voice. She sings John Brown's Body,
and James Freeman Clark basically says, that's such a great song, Julie,
you should elevate it, elevate the lyrics for essentially more
(09:38):
educated intellectuals. And Julie responds to her minister friend by senyel,
I've often thought of doing so, but I've done it.
She stays with her husband. She's at the Willards Hotel.
It's still a famous hotel and According to Julie Wardhouse,
she's the it's only her recollections that about which we know.
(09:59):
We don't know if it's how accurate it is. But
upshot is, she says. She goes to sleep, she wakes
up in the middle of the night and the John
Brown's Body song was already in her head, but all
five stanzas had already been written for her in essence
by God, and so she writes it down. In fact,
she's a Unitarian, so she's not normally it's not normally.
(10:22):
Unitarians are not normally someone who believes that they can
have direct relationships. Saily with God and Battle Him of
the Republic is published in The Atlantic Monthly on the
cover in February of eighteen sixty two. For the rest
of the war, though the John Brown's Body still remains
the most influential song.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
But Battle Him after the war then has its own
fascinating history in the reconstruction period and later. I was
very surprised to read in detail how often it was
used and how often it was if you will revived
even though the war was over and won.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, I think because of the war. Although the war
was won by the North, it was still present. It
was still ever present, which is one of the reasons
why it was popular. And Julie Ward Howe's Battle Him
essentially it came to replace John Brown's body in part
(11:19):
because at the end of the war, people wanted to
try to, if not forget it, to move on, and
so that's one of the reasons. So the fact that
John Brown's body gets sidelined and gets uncoupled from Battle
Him of the Republic makes Battle Him in the Republic
very popular. And what's interesting is that in the by
(11:42):
the eighteen eighties, Southerners start to appropriate the song as well,
which I still think is fascinating, and it was sung
at the White House. And the reason why Southerners could
embrace it is because Julie Ward Howe's version Battlehim the
Republic the language is symbolic, whereas John Brown's Body says
(12:04):
We're going to hang Jeff Davis from a sour apple
tree in Battleheim and the Republic. The lyrics lend themselves
to both the rebels and the North. Abolitionists and slave
owners are former pro slave owners. The song is about
fighting for God, fighting for freedom. Southerners saw themselves as
fighting for freedom, and so That's how and why it
(12:27):
became hugely popular in the South as well, because of
the lyrics. The tune was the same, the song was
the same. The lyrics opened the way for Southerners to
embrace it in a very different way.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
But that could be the end of it. It could
be a nineteenth century song, could be a song that
you know, yes, the war and the aftermath and all
of that stuff, but by the twentieth century and Industrial
Revolution and all sorts of stuff going on at a
high pace. You know, this sort of stuff could be
left in the background, right, But it wasn't. The Battle
hymn again endures into the tieth century. This blew my mind.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So one of the reasons again is Julie Wardhouse's lyrics.
But they are major figures who celebrated the song and
helped to disseminate it. One was Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt
was one of the most influential, almost evangelistic politicians in
early twentieth century, and The Battle of the Republic was
(13:24):
Teddy Roosevelt's favorite song. He saw it as a kind
of personal anthem. He was, you know, advocated strenuous life
and essentially a wartime form of American democracy, and he
advocates for battle Him of the Republic becoming the formal
national anthem, and that doesn't happen. But in a sense,
(13:47):
the fact that it's an unofficial anthem ironically makes it
even more popular. You don't have to be wedded to
the nation's official anthem. It can be your own as
well as the nation. It also, in fact became popular
in Britain in the beginning in the early twentieth century.
Churchill loved the song. In the late twentieth century, it
(14:10):
was probably the most popular form of A revision of
Battle Him of the Republic is Wobbley's The Industrial Workers
of the World. Beginning in the twentieth century, with the
rise of industrialization and the exploitation of workers, Battle Him
of the Republic was transformed into solidarity Forever and in
(14:31):
the song as we are the modern abolitionist fighting against
wade slavery, and that also contributed to the ongoing popularity
of Battlehem. Eugene Debs and Upton Sinclair loved the song.
It was their favorite songs, and then there were two
ministers too. But actually arguably the nation, certainly the nation's
(14:52):
most influential evangelist ministers, and they are Billy Sunday and
Billy Graham. And Billy Sunday and Billy Graham both doored
Battlehanm of the Republic. They saw it as the anthem
of their church, so to speak, their favorite song of
any form or any kind. In every revival that Sunday
(15:12):
and Graham gave, they performed Battlehanma the Republic.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yes, and we should remind buzz killers, especially those who
are from overseas. Billy Sunday was a famous preacher in
the early twentieth century. Former baseball player actually.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, professional baseball player.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's right. Yeah. And then Billy Graham was the most
important evangelical preacher in the US in the mid twentieth century,
really well into the eighties and nineties. But so the
fact that again the song is lasting more than one
hundred years.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah. So in fact, I was able to interview Billy
Graham's director of music. Oh yeah, he was very elderly,
and he was really helpful, and he said, and I
asked him, you know, why did Billy Graham adopt this song?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
And because after all, Billy Graham's a Southerner and all
sorts of.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Stuff that's right, and he said that the song exempl
exemplified Graham's message. That's how he answered it. And Billy
Graham's basic message is accepting Jesus as your savior and
that Jesus is your friend and savior and can be
(16:23):
within you. And the song, you know, God is a
central part of that song. His truth, his day, our
God is marching on is something that Billy Graham loved
because he recognized to evangelize the world was a kind
of war, essentially, almost a religious war of evangelizing the
(16:45):
world so that people become accept Jesus and as their savior.
And it also the song, and in fact, Billy Graham's
director of religion said that the song was able to
liberate Billy Graham from him his own Southern identity because
at the time when his ministry was growing, a lot
(17:05):
of people kind of called Billy Graham simply another Southern evangelical,
charismatic minister. And the song not only nationalized Billy Graham,
but then it helped him become famous around the world.
And the song traveled around the world as well. In fact,
when he went to Asia, when he went to other countries,
(17:27):
he would still have the chorus singing about him in
the Republic.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yeah, and by the way, for those of you who
haven't seen him, you can look him up on YouTube.
But his approach and his preaching style was very forceful.
It really is and charismatic. It really has this sort
of almost military battle says to it.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yes, I mean Billy Graham. He wrote about it too.
He trained like a pro athlete. As an order. He
had a few mottos. One is look him in the eye,
and he would practice that. He would practice looking at
a mirror and looking himself before he would give sermons
to a crowd. He was a brilliant order. He really was.
(18:06):
As a public speaker, Billy Graham was one of the
best in the twentieth century.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Well, and speaking of other orders, your final chapter is
entitled the African American Battle Him. Now, this doesn't refer
to what some people might think of as the battle
Hymn of the First the marching song of the First
Arkansas Regiment, which we've talked about in the previous show,
but talks about how it was used in the civil
rights movement in the twentieth century and then ultimately again
(18:31):
getting back to this order theme by Martin Luther King.
But when I was surprised, someone who was born and
grew up in the sixties, I expected this chapter read
mostly about the sixties, and then King using it famously
in his last speech in sermon right, his.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Last public words, his.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Last literally yeah yeah, But you show that it starts
much earlier than that, at least in the thirties, maybe
even before.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yes, it became partly because of the religious references in
the song comes. It's a song that it incorporates and
embraces and encourages anyone, any human, whether it's man or woman,
black or white. They become part of or they it's
easy for them to see the song as their own.
(19:16):
It's open ended. It doesn't specify a certain kind of
person that the song will attract. It's very open ended
so that audiences and singers can interpret it in radically
different ways. It's why it's been seen as a conservative song,
a radical revolutionary song, a black anthem, a white anthem.
(19:38):
I mean, you can go back to how I mean
the word. We're open ended enough so that anyone could
interpret them in multiple ways. The lyrics where the term
would be polycemic, it can have multiple different understandings or definitions.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yes, one of the things I found so wonderful about
this particular chapter is, you know, people might expect, yes,
the NAACP he uses it, snick a s NCC King's
great organization. But also you show, for instance that when
people in the Harlem Tenants League march protesting rents and
other discrimination in renting and all that sort of stuff,
(20:15):
they use it as well. So it's even down to
that sort of specific level, that's.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Right, And I think that's part of the beauty of
the song. And as I said, it's part of the
beauty of the song is that it encourages people to
specify then specific nature of their faith, both their faith
in God, but their faith in the nation or a
society as well.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Well, let me end up things by again, I don't
think i've ever done this quoted twice extensively from a
book that we've talked about on the show. But just
as you had that wonderful setup in the introduction, you
have a wonderful conclusion and a wonderful concluding sentence. And
if you don't mind, professor, I'm just going to read
it out. Okay, this is at the end of the
(21:00):
and it sums up everything and wraps up but also
makes us think towards the future. You say, the battle
Hymn reminds us that our most powerful visions of the
coming of the Lord are pierced by the gleaming of
the terrible swift sword. It reminds us as well that
beyond the wrath and the trampling and the sword, the
(21:20):
glory continues.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, Benjamin actually wrote that last line. It's magnificent, but
it's it captures the degree to which the song has
always been one that unites and divides. It's us versus them,
which clarifies who we are and who they are, which
captures a sense of national identity. It's an ideal song
for any nation at war. It encourages sacrifice, it's a
(21:46):
catalyst for social change with God's help, and it's also adaptable.
I mean, I'm still struck at the degree to which
the song can be interpreted in terms of violent song,
nonviolent song, postmal millennial, pre millennial, northern southern conservative radical.
I mean, people have interpreted that way and more. It
(22:07):
taps a kind of millennialist strain in American culture, meaning
that this, you know, there's a new dispensation, a new
age of peace and harmony and true democracy. How people
understand it in America? And I think probably mostly it's
an aspirational song. It's aspiration on that it inspires people,
(22:30):
It encourages them to try to be their best in
however terms. They understand that to be because it envisions
of future good society and a future good and better self.
And I think for those reasons it's why it has
remained hugely popular.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yes, and folks, I can't stress enough this book, The
Battle Hymn of the Republic, A Biography of the Song
that marches On, is really one of the most important
history of books I've read in recent years. I've really
come to believe that this is our best song, the
best American song. And you know, I'm sorry, Professor. I'm
just going to sing the praises of the way you
organize the book as well, because the appendix has what's
(23:12):
called the lyrical Lineage of the Battle Hymn of the Republic,
in which you reproduce as many possible versions of it
as you can, going all the way back to say
brothers and things like that, and so it's an excellent reference.
You're not just saying these things that this song has
all these versions and all these meanings. You're pointing the
reader to the direct lyrics, right.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
We really, we very much wanted to do that because
as a way of helping readers appreciate the multi valance
nature of the song.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Well, Professor, it just remains for me to thank both
of you, you and Professor Soskis for writing this wonderful book.
Please everyone, The book is on the Buzzkill bookshelf on
the blog posts related to this episode, And thank you
so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Thank you all. Play. One other thing that the song is,
It's a song of America's what a lot of scholars
have referred to as America's civil religion, meaning the way
in which Americans interpret God is helping them improve and
transform and achieve American democracy that God would want.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
I can't think of a better way to end this
episode than that. So all of you listeners out there,
we will talk to you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!