March 4, 2025 • 58 mins
Carla Von Trapp Hunter (descendant of Captain and Maria Von Trapp) joins Dr. Rebecca Brenner Graham to talk about The Sound of Music, the famous musical that appeared in theaters 60 years ago this week. We bust the many myths in the Sound of Music film, and show that the real story of the von Trapps is much more fascinating! Join us for one of the very best Buzzkill discussions ever! Episode 577.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Are alive with the sound of musing with songs they
have sung for a thousand years.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, buzz Killers, it's your favorite professor here. We're here
to talk about the famous film The Sound of Music,
but more importantly about the family that that film is about,
the von Trapps of Austria. But fortunately you don't have
to listen to me, prad lawn about this and talk
about the story endlessly. And it isley because we've got
two great buzz killers with us, doctor Rebecca Graham, who's
(00:45):
been on the show before, one of our regulars, and
also Carla von Trapp, hunter of descendant of gay Org
and Maria. And it's sort of the keeper of the
family memory, Is that right? Carlam My saying that, is
that the best way to discrib your role Now?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I'm definitely an unofficial capacity. I think there are a
number of people that have done things in the family
to keep things going. But right now I would like
to think that myself and a few others are taking
the mantle in the fourth generation.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Okay, we won't ask you to sing, and won't ask
you to bring all your brothers and sisters in this
sing like your ancestors, but you have so much information
that other people don't have. So it's great to have
you on the show. And Rebecca's here because, of course
one of the people she talks about in her book
on mss Perkins, which we discussed recently on the show.
We're the von Trapp family, and so we have a
(01:34):
great collection of people. We've got a scholar, and we've
got a descendant. I mean, I can't imagine a better
show than that.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
What do you think, Rebecca, Thank you so much for
having me back on the show. Joe, And I'm so
thrilled that Carla, who has such a wealth of information
on the von Trapp family, is.
Speaker 5 (01:49):
Here with us as well.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yes, and it's too bad that this is an audio
only podcast because out the window in Carla's background are
the beautiful mountains of Vermont. You can see how gorgeous
they are remind us of the beautiful mountains of Austria.
But it is audio only, so you'll have to just
imagine that. We'll talk about von Trapp's presence in Vermont
a little later in the show. You know, there are
(02:11):
so many fascinating things about this story. The first thing
we should establish is these are real people. This isn't
a fake Hollywood script. This wasn't a fake Broadway play.
There was a German movie before the Broadway play that
wasn't fake either. In terms of these are real people,
so we have to remember that when they're portrayed by
Julie Andrews and Christopher Plummer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
(02:34):
We're talking about people who actually lived through it, and
who lived through the Nazi occupation of Austria.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah, that's absolutely true. And you know, a very interesting family.
I think maybe I'm biased, but my great grandfather, gaeor
Johannes Richard von Trapp, he had a much longer name
than that, but that's what you know, sort of the
lasting Moniker is. You know, he was born a night
in eighteen eighty, which feels like a lifetime, you know ago,
(03:00):
just like a different world. And he actually was born
in Zara in what was Dalmatia, part of the Austro
Hungarian Empire at the time. Today it's Zidar, Croatia. He's
often thought to be born in Pola, which is where
his family ultimately settled. His father was a captain in
the Austro Hungary in the Austrian Navy, excuse me, Austrian
(03:22):
Imperial Navy. And they'd been stationed at all the empire's
fore main ports, so that's Triaste, which is Italy today, Pola,
then Croatia now it's Pula Croatia, Zara which is Croatia,
and Fume, which is Rieka in Croatia, and again eventually
they settled in Pola. His father had been knighted for
(03:44):
his own naval service, so the Gayorg was born a knight.
But my understanding is he actually issued that honorific and
he until he earned it in his own right in
his own naval career, so I guess he was a
double knight. But at fourteen he had the decision to
follow in his father's footsteps and he was accepted into
(04:04):
the Austro Hungarian Empire's naval academy in Fume, and it
led to a world of adventure and was kind of
the start of the family experience.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
I actually remember that detail that he was born in
eighteen eighty because that is the year that Francis Perkins
was born, just by coincidence. Francis Perkins would tell people,
though that she was born in eighteen eighty two, One
of the reasons was because she did not want to
appear to be older than President Franklin D.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
Roosevelt.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
But the year that they likely met in Washington was
nineteen forty, so that would have been both their sixtieth birthday.
I mean, I know, not everyone's a birthday person. I
don't know if your great grandfather was, but it just
strikes me that Captain von Trapp was celebrating his sixtieth
birthday that year while Francis Perkins was, I guess pretending
(04:52):
not to pretending to.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Be fifty eight. We should remind Belskilla is that the
reason why we're talking about miss Perkins is because Rebecca
show about Ms Perkins and the Von Trapp family came
out a little while ago, and we'll put a link
for that in the blog post. But Carlo, I'm interested
in this knighthood and this title and everything because sometimes
you see von Trap and sometimes you see Trap. So
(05:14):
you see the Trap family singers, we see the von
Trapp family singers. And I've read, you know, very sort
of vaguely some people claim it's not a real title
and all sorts of stuff like that. What is the
actual story behind the Vaughn.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Yeah, so the Vaughn is it would be ritter ri
t t er v o n with a space in between,
and that was the equivalent to knighthood. And his father,
a captain, received a recognition for his service and his accomplishments.
And gay Organ has long career. I mean, he was
involved in the Boxer Rebellion, He was involved in pretty
(05:48):
much the arc of development of their naval submarines. He
was involved in a lot and he actually received quite
a lot of awards and commendations in his own on right,
one of which was to get the richer Vaughan honorific himself,
and he was actually later elevated to baron. And this
(06:09):
is something that I constantly am fighting battles with with
people that write or online trolls. It is a little
complicated because despite the collapse of the Austro Hungarian Empire
in nineteen eighteen, many years after that First World War,
the Austrian military sought to commemorate in an award there
veterans recognitions for their service, and based on his accomplishments
(06:33):
in the war and prior decorations, he was actually extended
to the military Maria Turich Order and that it was
elevating him to the title of baron. So that is
one that is often duked out online in the forums.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
So Baron von Trapp is correct, it is Baron Gayorg
von Trapp is the is the most correct, Yes, and
it was.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Actually it's a hereditary title, so it would have con
and you down through the line. Of course, when most
became US citizens, you have to give up any foreign honorifics.
And it gets complicated because after the war ended in
Austria there was a law abolishing the nobility, and so
legally you still cannot use Vaughn or Barren or any
(07:21):
of such. I'm a dual citizen and on my Austrian
passport it doesn't have the Vaughn in my name, and
so Captain is sort of the durable that refers to
his profession and that doesn't really change with those politics.
So he appears in multiple ways.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
And I ask a question about your initials, Carla, So
do you use the V or the tee or both.
Speaker 6 (07:43):
I have even longer names, so it's sort of you know,
it goes.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
I have two middle names, so von Trapp is technically
a second middle and I usually go by Carla. Von
Trapp Hunter or just you know, playing Carla Hunter. But
it's fun because I live in Vermont now, and of
course people sometimes think I'm just a Vermont enthusiast, and
that's fine too.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Did you ever have an ll bean backpack in New
England like CVTH that would be very cool?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Or now this is really getting into the detail, the
nerdy detail of Americana here.
Speaker 5 (08:16):
I mean you should. I mean I'll also say so.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
The first printing of Dear Miss Perkins used Trap and
then I had the privilege of coming into contact with Carla,
and the second printing we'll say von Trapp. I think
it's very important to take seriously what people want to
be called, whether that's a family history, whether that's names
and pronouns in the current context, whether that's Francis Perkins
(08:40):
saying her last name is Perkins even though it was
legally Wilson because she was married, and all of the
hate mails she received did as many things as you
can imagine with that ambiguity. So I believe in calling
people what they want.
Speaker 6 (08:53):
I really appreciate that, and I adhere to that as well.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
And of the one hundred and sixty five of us,
quite a lot of return to to Europe, and even
though the monarchy has gone in Austria and nobility is banished,
there's quite a lot of community and in these like
you know, family lines that have gone on for centuries
and there's still like a culture of fabric where people
recognize each other and appreciate that shared history. But to
(09:19):
the loo Bean toe bag, yes, yes I had, I
had all five letters.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
I love how I said backpacking. You made it more
sophisticated into it.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
That's awesome back back too, But I would say I
grew up not using von trap and I think that's
an important thing in hindsight, because I got to sort
of be myself. When you have the family name, you
understandably get a lot of questions from pretty much everybody
about it, and sometimes people do ask you to sing.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
Well.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
That brings up an interesting question. Because the movie is
the most recent, I guess there been subsequent sort of
Broadway shows or things like that. But do the young
people know any more? Do fourteen year olds or twelve
year olds ask you? Or is it all people my age?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I think it breaks down into a lot of different groups.
I mean, the world over, it's a pretty positive sound
of music.
Speaker 6 (10:10):
I should say that the nineteen sixty five.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Was a really uplifting, heartfelt good feel movie that well
actually definitely lacking it. Really it touched people the world over,
and so I think definitely our our parents, grandparents' generations
know of it. I think that people now know of
it more as like you know, clickbait on BuzzFeed.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
But that's okay.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
This time last year, I was a high school history teacher,
they know, and I would use it whether we were
talking about us in the nineteen thirties, forties or in
the nineteen sixties. I also taught at twelfth grade elective
called Holocaust Studies, and they would indulge my tangent, probably
because it gave them less work to do about the
(10:55):
historical memory of the von Trapp family and the sounds
of music.
Speaker 5 (10:58):
The teenagers definitely know and care.
Speaker 6 (11:01):
Yeah, that's so interesting, you know.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
And in your book, Rebecca, there's a piece and I
guess I'm taking us a little bit off of path,
but you know, you talk about at the end of
the chapter about my family, about how people perceived the family,
you know, as being non Jewish, and you know, I
think it's interesting to look at what was going on
in America and what the general attitudes were towards people
(11:24):
leaving the continent, and if Americans even knew the difference
between Germany and Austria. And here's my family kind of
touring around the US wearing Darndall's and laters, and like
they were often asked like why did you leave if
you weren't Jewish? Like you know where you spy? It's
just it's wild.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Well that reminds me the whole later Osen craze in
the sixties, which unfortunately my mother was part of and
dressed us up like that. But perhaps what fascinates me
the most about this story is, well, first of all, Rebecca,
you write all the myths that have come up about it,
But I'm so fascinated by gay Org van traps naval
(12:03):
career and distancing himself from the Nazis. What fascinates me
is that he gets interested in the technology, the new
technology of the Nazi U boats, right, and he thinks, oh,
this is kind of interesting, and very briefly thinks, well,
you know, I'd really love to pilot one of these things.
But then his hatred of Nazi ideology overcomes that and refuses.
(12:25):
Now that's what I've always read in reliable sources. Now
that you tell me, is that true?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Well, I preface it by saying I wasn't alive then,
so I too, am on accounts and documented things. You know,
there are a lot of facts about the family that
are in well reputable published books from major publishing houses
that they reflect like the telephone game. But I from
those that have been doing research, I know this that
(12:52):
gay Org went from working on like old wooden sailing
ships and he went around the world twice, ended up
in the Boxer rebellion, and came home, had more studying,
and then volunteered himself to be a part of this
new initiative to develop the U boat, the submarine. And
in those days it was like open gasoline engines and
(13:13):
these like wooden hulls that were reinforced with steel, and
it was really rudimentary, like the scopes wouldn't go down
fast enough, and they had no way of having any
sort of radar or navigation system. And they learned by
trial and error, and it was a lot of like
you know, things went wrong and they did right. So
he was actually a part of the early development I
(13:37):
guess I would say the submarines, and he married into
a family who invented the torpedo. His wife's grandfather, Robert Whitehead,
invented it with the hope of sort of deterring violence
in war, and he met her when one of the
U boats was being christened and she played violin, and
he continued to work on them. And so I think,
(14:01):
in my understanding, the family was pretty anti Nazi from
the start. They were very aware of what was going
on in Germany. People were going missing. They had a
family friend who was what we would refer to as
handicapped these days, and she had just vanished without a trace.
My grandmother Eleanor had teachers in school that were replaced
(14:22):
five people that were parroting the Nazi ideology, and so
I think they were pretty resistant. Gay Or was presented
by Hitler or through the Nazis, with an opportunity to
work on the submarines that they had, and I think
he was curious about what had kind of come with
the technology. But I don't think he was as tempted
(14:44):
as is betrayed.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Right well, I certainly said that in our original show.
But it is fascinating that you know so many military
people who were interested in the military, then have to decide, well,
I'm interested in the military, and I'm interted in all
the these new things. But you know, this Nazi stuff
has really not is really immoral. So it's a dilemma
(15:07):
for Georg von trop maybe for fifteen seconds, but for
other people it might have been a dilemma for a
long time.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah, I think I can go as far as to
say you was a monarchist and he wasn't. He was
very skeptical of both the principles of the movement, but
also it felt very strange, the fervor that had sort
of come over the land, and you know, putting it
back on the historical and the cultural lens, I think
is an important reminder for us. All of like, post
(15:34):
World War One, Austria was pretty war torn. You know,
there wasn't really food, it was it was a struggle.
People tried to stand up and take various leadership opportunities,
and then of course the Depression came through, So it
was a tough time and I think I think unfortunately
the Nazis capitalized on that.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Well, let's get to the story in the movie we
see and when I see in the movie Buzz killers.
I'm presuming, although I never saw the stage play the musical,
that the musical and the movie are basically the same.
In plot, young Maria is trying to become a nun
and in a convent, and she's always distracted by running around,
singing in the hills and all sorts of you know,
(16:14):
interesting things. That's hard for her to keep her mind
under studies and everything, and so the abbess sends her
off to gay Org Van Trapp's family as a governess.
Now do we know how much truth there is to
that part of the story that you know, she's following
her heart or whatever, or is there just not enough information?
Speaker 6 (16:31):
There's none of that is accurate, really sweet.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
So Maria had grown up with a pretty tumultuous upbringing.
She was orphaned at a young age and spent various
time with family.
Speaker 6 (16:43):
She spent some.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Time in music with the Newland Choir, which brought about
some of the religiosity that we see later on. She
also went to teachers College, and so she was actually
teaching fifth grade at Nulmburg Abbey. And in sort of
a you know, a screen split, you have have the
on Trap Household, where Agatha Whitehead had just passed away
from Scarlett fever in nineteen twenty two, and some of
(17:07):
the children had also gotten it, and one of the daughters, Maria.
We referred to them to sort of differentiate. There's Maria Francisca,
who's the daughter, and then Maria Augusta, who's Maria. But
Maria Francisca had contracted Scarlett fever and was really lagging
in her studies, so Gayor hired Maria Augusta to come
(17:27):
and be her math tutor.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Oh, math tutor. Okay, that's very, very interesting. But you
get the impression in the film that the kids and
the father and everything have always been singing as a
group for a long time, and Maria just sort of
reinvigorates that. Is that true or does she bring singing
into the house.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
She has often given credit for that, and it's quite unfair.
Speaker 6 (17:48):
Let's zoom out a little bit.
Speaker 7 (17:49):
So.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
One of Gayorg's grandfathers was doctor Edward Christian Trapp. He
was a physician. He's from a long line of physicians.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
He was known for.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Rediscovering the minerals rings and I think bought Homburg for
their health purposes.
Speaker 6 (18:03):
And he was married to Baroness from Hess. They had
a really warm, supportive home.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
And then when Gayorg's parents got together, they did the same.
They also had a big culture of music in their household.
Gaye Org, I'm trying to remember the full list. So
gay Org he learned to play the violin, fiddle, guitar, medoline,
and harmonica, and he sang. And this was through his youth,
(18:30):
through his time as in service. You know, he was
spending time with all these soldiers from all over the
empire who spoke different languages, played different music. And he
actually married Agatha Whitehead, who had mentioned before, the granddaughter
of Whitehead, torpedo creator, and she'd grown up surrounded by music.
She played the piano, the violin, and she sang. So
(18:51):
the household they had was a really warm musical space.
The kids all played things that the parents taught them,
and then also had formalogic and so like I mean,
Rupert played the accordion, piano recorder, he sang, Agatha played
the guitar, piano recorder, sang. Maria the younger accordion, violin,
(19:11):
piano recorder, sang like It's it's definitely this pattern and
I think culturally that was much more commonplace certainly amongst
the noble, like the more leisure class where they would
have done.
Speaker 6 (19:22):
That at the time.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
So music was a daily endeavor in their home. The
kids were constantly singing, riffing, playing around, but it was
typically the more formal trained music. Maria grew up being
exposed to more folk songs and Christian songs with the
Newlin school, and so when she came in, she brought
definitely guitar, but she also had this very casual folks
(19:46):
song singing, and they all together kepped up that custom
of music.
Speaker 6 (19:50):
In the home.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
So then what happens, what's the actual sort of turning
point when they have to get out of Austria. You know,
in the movie, it's seen that the Nazis are coming
to the door and they're insisting that gay Or join
the navy and take up his assignment and all sorts
of stuff, and there's going to be this folk festival,
so that the family uses a folk festival as a
(20:13):
way to escape after while the audience is still applauding.
But we know the historians, we all know that that's
not correct. But I'd like to know more about the
detail of how that actually happens.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I think it's complex. There is more sort of pressure
in the family. Gailorg had been offered a role in
the navy, which he was like a household name, as
a really well I think, the highest decorated naval officer
coming off of the war, so it would have been
more an endorsement. I think to have him in the
navy might have inspired him the Nationalists. And then Rupert,
(20:49):
who was the eldest. He was not Liezel, he was Rupert.
Rupert had actually become an Austrian citizen in order to
go to school in Innsbruck and had finished his medical
studies and it was just sort of applying for early roles.
You know, he's green, fresh out of med school, and
this opportunity to work in a significant role in Vienna
(21:10):
came up, and the family was aware that that role
had been taken away from a Jewish professional and that
was not interesting. Maria had also had a brush in
with Hitler at a cafe where she observed his personal
behavior as just being sort of gruff, rude, gross or
descriptors I've heard over the years. And there was another
(21:32):
situation where somebody, a gang of kids on a bike
brought they were Nazis but young ones. They brought a
silk flag to the house and Geor refused to fly it,
and he was brought down to the local station and
sort of interrogated. And you know, there's this quip that
he's referred to as saying, you know, why would I
hang this? I'd much rather hang one of our oriental
(21:52):
rugs over the banister. But I think the actual turning
point came from realizing that they were in real danger.
There was a butler in the home who was a
Nazi sympathizer, who'd warned them, please don't discuss this at
the dinner table, like please don't discuss politics. I'll'll have
to report you. I don't want to where you. He'd
work for them for a long long time, and they
(22:14):
kept him on but honored that boundary. And they'd gotten
word that they were not safe, they were on a list,
and that they should go. And I also think that
gay Org probably had ties to the intelligence community from
his war efforts. He certainly was in touch with a
lot of different officers at the time, and I'm under
(22:35):
the impression that they were tipped off that the orders
will be closing and they should leave.
Speaker 6 (22:40):
But before they could leave.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
They had to sign a contract giving them sort of
reason to go, and they signed a contract that had
come in from the States where they could do a
music tour. And what's not known as commonly is so
the family was sort of known for Gayorg's military service,
and then as a sort of second wave of notoriety,
they became known as professional musicians singing throughout the continent
(23:04):
more folk songs and traditional Austrian songs. They had had
audiences with Pope and all sorts of storied individuals, and
they regularly appeared on the radio in conjunction with gay
Org's talks promoting his memoir which has been translated to
English as to the Last Salute, and they were well
(23:25):
known musicians. They had actually also been asked to participate
in Hitler's birthday program on the radio and said no,
and that's a last but it's important, and I'm sort
of digressing a little bit and saying, you know.
Speaker 6 (23:39):
And as historians were.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Looking at the myths and the lore and the official
records and the games of telephone, the play out was
we look at what's happened in the past. And that's
one example where the family anecdote for a long time
was they were asked to play at Hitler's birthday party.
So I know as a child when I heard that story,
I'm picturing Hitler earn a room, at a table, there's
(24:02):
a birthday cake, You're singing at a birthday party.
Speaker 6 (24:04):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Well, I recently learned it wasn't that. It wasn't that
at all, and so that's what the minds I filled in.
But in truth, what it was was this nationwide radio
program where people from all over the nation were asked
to come and sing their songs as like an honorary
offering for Hitler on the occasion of his birthday, which
they said not.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Well, then, Rebecca, this is where you come in and
Miss Perkins and the US government and other things company
because of this contract.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Yes, definitely, and I will not forget to circle back
to that.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
After backing it for a second, I just wanted to.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Highlight the flag detail, which is one of the likely
examples from real life and also in the movie. The
reason that stands out to me is because the image
of Christopher Plumber ripping up the Nazi flag, even if
that's not how it happened, conveys strong politic kolwait I
(25:00):
think as a gift on the Internet and in the
memories before and after the Sounds of Music book by
Agatha von Trapp, there are a few detailed examples of.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Why they were looking to leave.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
And the example that Carlo also mentioned about Rupert receiving
the job, that if Jewish doctors weren't being removed from
their positions unjustly, he probably would not have received That
example really stands out to me because it connects so
closely with the Nazi Party platform of nineteen twenty and
also as the two ideas of the Nazi Party were
(25:41):
to remove Jewish people from citizenship and to elevate and
really accelerate the lives of people who counted as citizens
who were not Jewish in Nazi territory. And so just
that example of not taking the Jewish job that was
offered to him comes across as powerful, and I said,
I won't forget to circle back. So bringing us back
(26:04):
to the contract, Agatha writes in the memoir that they
left with their passports, which is important because that was
necessary to enter the US and many people fleeing Nazis
did not have them anymore. There's an academic book called
The Invention of the passport. That highlights how increasingly throughout
(26:24):
the Nazi regime people who were trying to leave had
been stripped of their documents.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Well, the von Trapps had.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Their passports, they also had their visitors di visas, and
they had their contract. The contract for the singing tour
in the US enabled the visitors visas. So a chapter
of my book Dear Miss Perkins, which is called Dear
Miss Perkins.
Speaker 5 (26:44):
The chapter it's chapter.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Seven, is about many examples of relatively well off because
they were able to get roles in the US, but
also relatively unknown people, including the von Trapp family singers.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
This was before the Sounds of music who.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Had visitor visas, And this was one of the policies
that Secretary of Labor Francis Perkins used to aid refugees
from Nazi Germany. There were other things that she did too,
but the reason that the number of lives that her
efforts saved is in the tens of thousands is because
after Crystal knocked in November nineteen thirty eight, she urged
(27:22):
President Franklin D. Roosevelt to make extending visitor visas the
official policy of the executive branch, and he did so
visitor visas were one way to be in the US.
There were also quota visas, where the wait list for Hungary,
for example, was ten to twelve years long, non quota visas,
(27:42):
which usually required specific professional expertise, and then visitor visas,
which might be business like a singing tour, or it
might be pleasure like someone who is visiting family in
the US. And Francis Perkins would ad hoc extend these visas,
which she did for the von Trapp family once in
the spring of nineteen forty and once in the fall
(28:03):
of nineteen forty. Though after that point the Immigration Naturalization
Service had actually moved to the Department of Justice, so
she was actually putting in a word, to a different department.
But this ad hoc extension of visitor visas was really
a patchwork, piecemeal system that was very imperfect, but it
(28:24):
did allow people to stay in the US when their
lives would be uncertain at best or ended at worst
if they had to return.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
You know what's interesting is because Rupert had become an
Austrian citizen for his schooling. So sorry I should rewind
by saying so. When the Empire crumbled after World War One,
they assigned citizenship based on not where people were born,
which is the common conception, but actually where they resided
at that time, And so because the family was based
(28:56):
out of Pola, the gay organist descendants received high citizenship
and Rupert would have defected from that to prepare for
his schooling in Innsbruck, and that would have made him
a German citizen effective immediately after the anschlus.
Speaker 6 (29:12):
And so I wondering and speculate, because that's really all
I can do.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That Rupert would have been allowed a permanent visa when
the rest of the family were visitors, because he was
actually a German at the time technically, and he was
a doctor, so we would have had specialized skills. But
it was important that that did happen because later on
they had to leave when their visa was extended and
do a tour in northern Europe. And when they came back,
(29:39):
my great grandmother was so relieved to be back in
the States and back sort of in safety, because things
were really, really hectic at the time that when the
immigrations officer, the customs officer asked her, well, how long
do you attend to stay, she said some quip like
I hope forever, and that's really not when you want
to say when you have a temporary.
Speaker 6 (30:00):
So that you're trying to secure.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
And so the family was locked up for I think
a couple of days. Rupert was able to I think
reach out to him as Perkins indirectly and get her
help and a few other people to try to get
them out. Maybe doctor Grant will help.
Speaker 6 (30:14):
Us with that one.
Speaker 5 (30:15):
That part is not confirmed.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
I say that it's likely because Rupert was reaching out
to people that he knew, and the von Trapps clearly
knew Gertrude Ely in Pennsylvania, who socialized with them, met
them on their first tour, and she was one of
Francis Perkins's best friends. Perkins had a very small inner circle,
and Gertrude Ely's portrait is in the Perkins family homestead
(30:38):
in Maine. But yes, the fact that Rupert is the
only person in the family at that point who had
an immigration visa that was permanent, and that permanent versus
temporary distinction is crucial because of the socially constructed system
that works on the premise that oh it's temporary, it
(31:00):
was temporary.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Perkins extended the.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Visitor visas of other people who I mentioned in chapter seven,
who stayed in the US throughout the war, and then
they went back to somewhere else, often Italy. And then
I just wanted to highlight an important note that in
the US context, unfortunately, where they were born was pivotal
(31:24):
because of the National Origins Act of nineteen twenty four
that ran the quota system. So not the temporary visas,
which were not dependent on the quota, but the quota
immigration system from nineteen twenty four was based on where
each person was born. And not only that, but it
was based on where the patriarch of a family was born.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
By the way, nobody knows about Rupert. You know, he's
not in the movie, so everyone thinks Leesel's the oldest.
But there's this other Rupert who's actually grown adult in
doing these other things, and his story seems rather central
to the to getting the visas and getting out.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
Yeah, and I'd like to see a Rupert von Trapp biopic.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
I mean, I think he had a really interesting life.
I'm learning more about it going, you know, being in
touch with his brand to the family. I think it's
really good to think about too. There was a twenty
five year age difference between Marie and the captain, and
Maria was more of an age pair to the older
bad to children who would have I think been twenty
five twenty seven ish when they left. So that's interesting
(32:28):
and then worth raising. So what you mentioned about them
reaching out to Ms. Perkins, that matches my sort of
oral history in the family, and that had been the tradition.
They also work close with the Habsburgs and Zita, the
Empress former At the point Embersita was in touch with
(32:48):
the White House. She was helping to create this clandestine
military unit and sort of trying to launch that. So
I believe as well that they reached out through that channel.
And I don't think this connected, but I think it's
good to understand. Is that I had mentioned Gayorg's grandparents,
one being a physician and one being a baroness from Hess.
(33:12):
They had I think five children, one daughter, gay Org,
and then three other siblings. Two of those three had
ended up in the US well before World War One.
One of them helped on the Transatlantic Railroad and then
consulted on the assembly of the Brooklyn Bridge, and the
other one I don't really know much about, except that
(33:33):
he did have some sort of technical role, so they
were already stateside I have no idea if they were
in touch. I mean that would be gay Org's uncles,
so that is entirely possible too, that may have somehow
helped in the fringes.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
So this whole climbing over the mountains and walking to
Switzerland and all sorts of stuff, we all know that's
not true. They got on the train and left, and
they sort of got out through legal ways of visas
and stuff. But the whole story of it, the Rupert
story and everything else, is so much more fascinating and
so much more helpful for trying to understand the history
(34:11):
of what actually happened to people in the period. People
generally speaking don't escape by hiking over the Alps in
their later hosen and you know, writing gay or carrying
the youngest one on his back. As romantic as that seems,
it is fascinating how it's a combination of both government
bureaucracy and also Rupert wanting to get out, and then
(34:34):
people on the US side. That we love complications on
this show because that's what happens in history is very calm,
things very complicated, but also it tells us a lot
more than simply an inspirational hike.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Maybe this is demonstrative of American's grip on geography and
world history at that point.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yeah, well, yeah, there's that.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
In the nineteen sixty five film of portraying them walking
up over the Alps from Salzburg. That would end the
snackcab in the Eagles Nest, which was like a Nazi
based So it just darling story makes your great cinema.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
That detail is a gem.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
And I argue that in the context of the US
in the nineteen sixties, when the Sounds of Music achieved
widespread popularity, people broadly the public difficult to measure.
Speaker 5 (35:27):
But still important, needed to believe.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
That it was hard to get out of Nazi territory
and that it was easier to get into the US,
Whereas the reality is that for the von Trapp family singers,
it was easier to get out of Nazi territory and
harder to get into and to stay in the US.
They worked very hard to get here, they worked very
hard once they were here, And in that nineteen sixties context,
(35:54):
it also showed Americans that, look, the US provides did
a safe, mountainous home in Vermont for people who were
running from the Nazis. By taking Jewishness out of it,
by having the film focus on a family that was
not Jewish, the US didn't have to look at the
(36:15):
vhemin anti Semitism in the US in the nineteen thirties,
and that was definitely still present.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Okay, So then what happens when they're in America out
now again, I mean, I don't mean in the period
when they're in for a while and then they have
to go back, They go back on a northern tourn
and then they come back when they're sort of permanently
in America and the establishment of the Lodge in Stouve,
Vermont and all that. That's a fascinating story in itself
that isn't really covered, you know, certainly not covered in
(36:44):
the movie, and there wasn't a sequel to the movie.
So I think our listeners would love to hear that.
Speaker 6 (36:49):
Yeah, the lodge came about organically.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
They when they first lanted in Manhattan, they were staying
at the Wellington, and then they were able to stay
at the Drinkerge residence in pennsylvani Most of the time
they were traveling on a tour bus They performed from
when they arrived to I think nineteen fifty five and
became the most booked American musical performing act. That's like
(37:13):
their accolade. And they did that by going town by
town on a bus, performing at small venues like churches, schools, legions.
Speaker 6 (37:23):
That type of thing.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
They worked really, really hard. They did not have much.
There was no modern banking system to pull from what
was at home, and they were very fortunate to be
able to have some success. They were able to pay
back the funds that had been advanced to them and
they got to a surplus about two years into performing.
They had the dream still to return home. They really
(37:45):
hoped Austria in its true sense would prevail in this
and held onto those sentiments. But at some point it
became apparent that they were able to and needed to
have something more permanent than their home in Pennsylvania. And
so while they were touring on the bus, they came
to Vermont, and the way the story goes and the
family is that they found a place down by Woodstock
(38:07):
that was a farm, and they thought that they could
make a go of a farm. That terrain here Vermont
sort of is reminiscent of Elpin Austria, and the family
had some confidence in agriculture because during World War One,
the family had relocated to Lake Salems and had stayed
(38:28):
there with Agatha Whitehead's mother, and they had to raise
a lot of their own food in.
Speaker 6 (38:33):
Order to just survive because there wasn't any food.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
So they had some confidence from that and they decided
they could maybe buy a farm. Then from woodstock, they
ambled up root one hundred to Stow, Vermont, where they
found just this beautiful piece of property on a hill
overlooking the village, and it's got the most gorgeous scenery.
The natural beauty of the place is just really tremendous,
and they let go their deposit in woodstock and purchase
(38:58):
that farm. Started pretty small, sixty acres, and has been
added onto subsequently. I think it's up to like twenty
seven hundred acres well.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
But they also become popular in the United States in
the fifties and sixties. They become that there's a lot
of singing, there's a lot of attention paid to them
as entertainment. It is you know that people are inspired
by the story in a way, but they're also inspired
by the singing. I mean I remember Maria being interviewed
on television and I don't remember it, but I've seen
(39:28):
Marie interview it on television and all that sort of things.
So they're not stuck up in Stow, Vermont with you know,
snowed in and just running a hotel there. They are
actually out in the in American in broader American culture.
Speaker 6 (39:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
So in the forties is when the lodge was established,
I want to say forty one off the top of
my head.
Speaker 6 (39:53):
They were touring.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
They would spend summers typically on their property, farming, building houses,
like converting old ramshackle barns into a home, taking the
farmhouse that was there and working on it. It was
a pretty run down place when they bought it. And
as they were on tour, there's usually a performance and
(40:14):
then like an autograph time at the end. And they
also were promoting an Austrian Relief Incorporated group which sent
back materials from whoever would donate them back to Austria.
Georic was in touch with a lot of officers and
was trying to subsidize the starvation and the struggles that
were happening back homes. They would send things home and
(40:35):
they also would quite frankly say, we're in Vermont, you know,
come and see us. In nineteen fifty, this summer is
when they first started opening the lodge to guests. There
had been this big boom and Stow after the war,
where all these tenth Mountain Division officers came home to
(40:56):
their respective communities all over the US and we're kind
of of board. They also enjoyed skiing and being in
the alpine, and so they invented a lot of the
rope to's chairlifts and cut the trails in what would
become the most of the modern ski resorts across the US.
And Stowe was especially that the Mountain was starting operations.
The Kennedys were coming. I think the Dalai Lama even
(41:19):
came and stayed at the lodge, and they'd have guests,
you know, come and stay in extra rooms. And then
they realized they could rent it out and it became
a bit of a more commercial structure, and then in
the summers they would have a music camp.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Wow, that's just fascinating. But then again, another thing happens
that certainly most Americans don't know. We think that the
von Trapp's story is told first by the musical and Broadway,
and then by the American film. But there's a nineteen
fifty six West German film first ten years before, almost
ten years before. So how did that happen and was
(41:58):
it part of West Germany's attempt is sort of to
celebrate its denocification and things like that. I haven't been
able to look into this like I wanted to, but
I'm gripped by the idea that it's the Germans who
come up with the film idea.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
First, I don't know enough about the what motivated well no,
I know about the progression, but I don't know and
can't release confidently speak to what motivated them to make
the film.
Speaker 6 (42:25):
Maria had been encouraged.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
To write a biography as a part of the press
initiatives to promote their singing and their record sales, because
at that point they were recording artists. So she wrote
her biography, the Story of the Trap Family Singers. Sorry,
that was the first one, and somebody came and said,
can we buy the rights to this and make a
(42:49):
movie out of you? And so in nineteen fifty six
she saw her story become Die Trap Fummy, which is
the Trap Family. And then two years later they did
a follow up sequel, Die Trap Family in America, which
is tough filmily in America, and those were incredibly popular
in West Germany and the post war years, and she
(43:11):
sold At first they just wanted to buy the name,
and she said, nope, you have to buy all the
rights to the story.
Speaker 6 (43:20):
Horribly misguided in hindsight, and.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
So she sold the rights to the story to them
for a very small amount of funds relative to what
they became and those movies. Paramount Pictures purchased the rights
to those stories in nineteen fifty six and they wanted
to make another film, and they wanted to have Audrey
(43:43):
Hepburn play Maria, and the studio eventually didn't pursue that option,
and they instead sort of one of the directors proposed
a story of a stage musical from Aaron Martin, who
I understand was fresh off Peter Pan and South Pacific
and had some momentum, and they bought the rights and
hired Lindsay and Kraus to put it together, who then
(44:06):
approached Rogers and Hammerstine and said, you know, will you
help us with one song for the musical? And they said, well,
we don't think our styles are going to work very well.
Instead of blend the styles, we want to rewrite all
the music for it, And so they did, and then
bring Mary Martin. In nineteen fifty nine the Broadway production began.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
Oh, the only detail of historical contexts I can add
about West Germany is probably not even helpful. Just the
fact that it was occupied by the US after World
War Two, and that it was still American controlled in
the nineteen fifties, and that in the broader story of
Holocaust memory in the US, the Americans wanted to ally
(44:49):
themselves with West Germany and protect and preserve West Germany
in opposition to East Germany and the Soviet Union. They're
just the fact that the film was in West Germany.
It sounds like something that would be consistent with American
ideas and narratives.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
When the Broadway musical comes out, and then when the
film comes out. You know, in our original show about
this and am I reading about this, you know, we
talk about all the myths in the film, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. But I don't really know how
the family, the family itself reacted to the musical and
(45:29):
the film. Did they like it, did they think you know, oh,
you know, Rupert is not in there at all, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. What's that story?
Speaker 3 (45:37):
From my understanding from my great aunts and uncles and
what I was told as a child by them, and
what I've read in their interviews is they were very
glad to not have their own names on the children,
because then you are having to differentiate yourself from what's
portrayed of you. And that was very challenging in the
(45:57):
instance of Maria and the Captain, because of in real life,
Maria and the Captain are not the way they are casted.
If anything, I would flip the disposition. Gay Ork was
really soft and gentle and warm, and Maria was challenging.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Oh that's interesting.
Speaker 5 (46:15):
That's an American gender role.
Speaker 4 (46:17):
There's actually so in terms of sounds and music scholarship,
a lot of it is in like cultural media studies
through a gender lens. That just sounds like American audiences
want the man to get to be cold and the
woman to have to be warm in order to be
well perceived anyway. In Agatha's memoir The Memories Before and
(46:38):
After the Sounds of Music, she writes, quote, when I
saw the musical for the first time.
Speaker 5 (46:43):
I cried.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Others in my family were equally upset. The man on
the stage in the naval uniform was not Papa. The
play and later the movie as beautiful as they were,
misrepresented our life at home.
Speaker 6 (46:55):
End quote.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Yeah, that's fascinating. That's exactly what I was looking for.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Their reaction, and it's a mixed blessing because of course
they're running a commercial venture at the time, a family
commercial venture, a lodge resort, and so that benefited them immensely,
but it also was very challenging.
Speaker 6 (47:12):
As Rebecca aptly.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
Contributed, and this group of children now know very much
adults in their elder years. They had kind of lost
their family's privacy a little bit when Gayorg had become
a national hero. He was like on the front page
of all the paper's household name back in Sal's work,
and then when they became touring group, they kind of
lost sur priscy for a second time.
Speaker 6 (47:34):
And then when the.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
Movie came out, it made them really public figures and
it almost erased their musical contribution, and that I think
was actually painful because they gave their lives to be
like performing artists.
Speaker 6 (47:47):
That was their lives and part of where the.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
Younger generations have stepped into wanting to understand more about
these historical facts is that for my grandparents' generation and
my parents' generation.
Speaker 6 (47:58):
Some people really did not want to talk about this stuff.
Speaker 3 (48:02):
Some did, and a lot of lore was passed on
some stories. Interviews with Kevin and I think it's now
that things have been digitalized the world over that we're
having more easy accessed information, and also I think more
courage to look at things in a historical and cultural lens.
Speaker 4 (48:20):
Maybe this is extremely related, and maybe it's not. I
love the movie like I just love the movie.
Speaker 5 (48:28):
I find it to be life affirming.
Speaker 4 (48:30):
My critique of the historical and cultural contexts comes from
a place of finding the sounds of music to be
life affirming.
Speaker 5 (48:39):
Who doesn't want to laugh?
Speaker 4 (48:41):
Like a book is it trips and falls over stones
in its way. Like anytime I'm reading about this or
studying it, I just come back to there are elements
in it that I think are universal and I like it.
Speaker 7 (48:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
I think their true history, especially in their culture and
historical contexts, is important. I'm really proud of the real humans,
the ancestors, hustle, determination, grace, as they navigated decades of global.
Speaker 6 (49:09):
And personal turmoil.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
And the movie too is one of grit and faith
in tenacity, and I think that is that is something
that they.
Speaker 6 (49:19):
Both parties really shared.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
And you know, I grew up watching The Sun of
Music before I even knew it was my family story,
and it was this beautiful movie and it's actually it's
been really a connection point, I think for a lot
of generations.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
But we have to end on what is my favorite
sound of music myth, and that is about the song
Adelweiss because so many Americans, I think, because of the
film thought and my parents used to say that, oh, Adelwis,
that's the Austrian national song, not maybe not national anthem,
but they believed it was the Austrian national song, when
in fact it was written by Rogers and Hammerstein in whatever,
(49:54):
you know, sixty four whatever they sat down to write,
write to play. Yet that sort of remain lots of people,
I hear this a lot, want to talk about the
sound of music. Oh I love Austrians, must love the
fact that they have such a beautiful song as their
national treasure, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and all
the Austrian friends I've had over the years. This drives
them nuts because they sing, no, that's not our national song.
(50:17):
It was made up.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah, it's a much more beautiful song about in melodic sound.
I think about Land of Mountains than by the Rivers,
the translation to the title of the Austrian national song
Landenberger Landomstrom. I'm probably butchering that I don't speak German,
but but you know, I was actually told Joe that
Adelweis was made up backstage one night before they went
(50:40):
on as more of an impromptu contribution to the Broadway show.
And I don't know if that's fact. That's something we
could all maybe dig into sometime, but.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
If it is, it's just like all too Well by
Taylor Swift, made up backstage with a real impact.
Speaker 6 (50:54):
So I love the Yes we draft.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
We know it's the twenty twenties when you bring a
Taylor Swift reference something.
Speaker 4 (51:01):
But back to the nineteen nineties. In addition to my
Sounds of Music VHS, I had.
Speaker 5 (51:05):
A talking globe.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
It had a little pen and you clicked on each
country and one of its features was it played the
national anthem. And I was so convinced as a single
digit age kid that I thought. I mean, I thought
that adel device was a national anthem. I was so
convinced that I thought that the Globe was wrong. Like
I had this toy that was from who knows what
educational company. You know, played the star spangled banner for
(51:29):
the US, and when you touched Austria, it did not
play adelvice and therefore I assumed it was misinformed.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Well there you go the problems of American toy manufacturer
as well. I would just like to say thank you
so much, Carlor for coming on the show. It's been
so nice to meet you. First of all, it's been
so nice to hear these stories. It's been so nice
to know that you knew your great uncles and aunts
the children in the film and were able to talk
(51:56):
to them about things. And of course Rebecca Graham, doctor
of Graham is just fabulous contribute to the fabulous member
of the Buzzkill Institute. Now we're so grateful, So thank
you both.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
Thanks for having me, and thanks so much Rebecca for
writing this book that you wrote about Miss Perkins. I
think our family owes a debt of honor to her,
and I'm glad that you've talked about that and important
cultural issues around her time in office.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Thank you both very much, and we're going to leave
you folks with of course, Adelweiss, followed by the genuine
Austrian national anthem. Talk to you next.
Speaker 8 (52:29):
Time, my fellow questions, I shall not be seeing you again,
perhaps one of very long time. I would like to
sing for you now, I love song. I know you
share this love.
Speaker 7 (52:51):
I pray that you will never let it die.
Speaker 9 (53:07):
A liddle viddle vies every morning you green, mean, small
and white, clean and bright. You look happy to me
(53:30):
me lossome of snormy you blue and grown, blue and
grow fiver haiddle vice, haddle vice, Bless my homelandfall.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
And fu.
Speaker 10 (54:11):
Small and white cel broad you look happy to me.
Los s wis spa B small seat sound stop
Speaker 9 (58:04):
To ta
Are alive with the sound of musing with songs they
have sung for a thousand years.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, buzz Killers, it's your favorite professor here. We're here
to talk about the famous film The Sound of Music,
but more importantly about the family that that film is about,
the von Trapps of Austria. But fortunately you don't have
to listen to me, prad lawn about this and talk
about the story endlessly. And it isley because we've got
two great buzz killers with us, doctor Rebecca Graham, who's
(00:45):
been on the show before, one of our regulars, and
also Carla von Trapp, hunter of descendant of gay Org
and Maria. And it's sort of the keeper of the
family memory, Is that right? Carlam My saying that, is
that the best way to discrib your role Now?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I'm definitely an unofficial capacity. I think there are a
number of people that have done things in the family
to keep things going. But right now I would like
to think that myself and a few others are taking
the mantle in the fourth generation.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Okay, we won't ask you to sing, and won't ask
you to bring all your brothers and sisters in this
sing like your ancestors, but you have so much information
that other people don't have. So it's great to have
you on the show. And Rebecca's here because, of course
one of the people she talks about in her book
on mss Perkins, which we discussed recently on the show.
We're the von Trapp family, and so we have a
(01:34):
great collection of people. We've got a scholar, and we've
got a descendant. I mean, I can't imagine a better
show than that.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
What do you think, Rebecca, Thank you so much for
having me back on the show. Joe, And I'm so
thrilled that Carla, who has such a wealth of information
on the von Trapp family, is.
Speaker 5 (01:49):
Here with us as well.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yes, and it's too bad that this is an audio
only podcast because out the window in Carla's background are
the beautiful mountains of Vermont. You can see how gorgeous
they are remind us of the beautiful mountains of Austria.
But it is audio only, so you'll have to just
imagine that. We'll talk about von Trapp's presence in Vermont
a little later in the show. You know, there are
(02:11):
so many fascinating things about this story. The first thing
we should establish is these are real people. This isn't
a fake Hollywood script. This wasn't a fake Broadway play.
There was a German movie before the Broadway play that
wasn't fake either. In terms of these are real people,
so we have to remember that when they're portrayed by
Julie Andrews and Christopher Plummer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
(02:34):
We're talking about people who actually lived through it, and
who lived through the Nazi occupation of Austria.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah, that's absolutely true. And you know, a very interesting family.
I think maybe I'm biased, but my great grandfather, gaeor
Johannes Richard von Trapp, he had a much longer name
than that, but that's what you know, sort of the
lasting Moniker is. You know, he was born a night
in eighteen eighty, which feels like a lifetime, you know ago,
(03:00):
just like a different world. And he actually was born
in Zara in what was Dalmatia, part of the Austro
Hungarian Empire at the time. Today it's Zidar, Croatia. He's
often thought to be born in Pola, which is where
his family ultimately settled. His father was a captain in
the Austro Hungary in the Austrian Navy, excuse me, Austrian
(03:22):
Imperial Navy. And they'd been stationed at all the empire's
fore main ports, so that's Triaste, which is Italy today, Pola,
then Croatia now it's Pula Croatia, Zara which is Croatia,
and Fume, which is Rieka in Croatia, and again eventually
they settled in Pola. His father had been knighted for
(03:44):
his own naval service, so the Gayorg was born a knight.
But my understanding is he actually issued that honorific and
he until he earned it in his own right in
his own naval career, so I guess he was a
double knight. But at fourteen he had the decision to
follow in his father's footsteps and he was accepted into
(04:04):
the Austro Hungarian Empire's naval academy in Fume, and it
led to a world of adventure and was kind of
the start of the family experience.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
I actually remember that detail that he was born in
eighteen eighty because that is the year that Francis Perkins
was born, just by coincidence. Francis Perkins would tell people,
though that she was born in eighteen eighty two, One
of the reasons was because she did not want to
appear to be older than President Franklin D.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
Roosevelt.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
But the year that they likely met in Washington was
nineteen forty, so that would have been both their sixtieth birthday.
I mean, I know, not everyone's a birthday person. I
don't know if your great grandfather was, but it just
strikes me that Captain von Trapp was celebrating his sixtieth
birthday that year while Francis Perkins was, I guess pretending
(04:52):
not to pretending to.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Be fifty eight. We should remind Belskilla is that the
reason why we're talking about miss Perkins is because Rebecca
show about Ms Perkins and the Von Trapp family came
out a little while ago, and we'll put a link
for that in the blog post. But Carlo, I'm interested
in this knighthood and this title and everything because sometimes
you see von Trap and sometimes you see Trap. So
(05:14):
you see the Trap family singers, we see the von
Trapp family singers. And I've read, you know, very sort
of vaguely some people claim it's not a real title
and all sorts of stuff like that. What is the
actual story behind the Vaughn.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Yeah, so the Vaughn is it would be ritter ri
t t er v o n with a space in between,
and that was the equivalent to knighthood. And his father,
a captain, received a recognition for his service and his accomplishments.
And gay Organ has long career. I mean, he was
involved in the Boxer Rebellion, He was involved in pretty
(05:48):
much the arc of development of their naval submarines. He
was involved in a lot and he actually received quite
a lot of awards and commendations in his own on right,
one of which was to get the richer Vaughan honorific himself,
and he was actually later elevated to baron. And this
(06:09):
is something that I constantly am fighting battles with with
people that write or online trolls. It is a little
complicated because despite the collapse of the Austro Hungarian Empire
in nineteen eighteen, many years after that First World War,
the Austrian military sought to commemorate in an award there
veterans recognitions for their service, and based on his accomplishments
(06:33):
in the war and prior decorations, he was actually extended
to the military Maria Turich Order and that it was
elevating him to the title of baron. So that is
one that is often duked out online in the forums.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
So Baron von Trapp is correct, it is Baron Gayorg
von Trapp is the is the most correct, Yes, and
it was.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Actually it's a hereditary title, so it would have con
and you down through the line. Of course, when most
became US citizens, you have to give up any foreign honorifics.
And it gets complicated because after the war ended in
Austria there was a law abolishing the nobility, and so
legally you still cannot use Vaughn or Barren or any
(07:21):
of such. I'm a dual citizen and on my Austrian
passport it doesn't have the Vaughn in my name, and
so Captain is sort of the durable that refers to
his profession and that doesn't really change with those politics.
So he appears in multiple ways.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
And I ask a question about your initials, Carla, So
do you use the V or the tee or both.
Speaker 6 (07:43):
I have even longer names, so it's sort of you know,
it goes.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
I have two middle names, so von Trapp is technically
a second middle and I usually go by Carla. Von
Trapp Hunter or just you know, playing Carla Hunter. But
it's fun because I live in Vermont now, and of
course people sometimes think I'm just a Vermont enthusiast, and
that's fine too.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Did you ever have an ll bean backpack in New
England like CVTH that would be very cool?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Or now this is really getting into the detail, the
nerdy detail of Americana here.
Speaker 5 (08:16):
I mean you should. I mean I'll also say so.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
The first printing of Dear Miss Perkins used Trap and
then I had the privilege of coming into contact with Carla,
and the second printing we'll say von Trapp. I think
it's very important to take seriously what people want to
be called, whether that's a family history, whether that's names
and pronouns in the current context, whether that's Francis Perkins
(08:40):
saying her last name is Perkins even though it was
legally Wilson because she was married, and all of the
hate mails she received did as many things as you
can imagine with that ambiguity. So I believe in calling
people what they want.
Speaker 6 (08:53):
I really appreciate that, and I adhere to that as well.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
And of the one hundred and sixty five of us,
quite a lot of return to to Europe, and even
though the monarchy has gone in Austria and nobility is banished,
there's quite a lot of community and in these like
you know, family lines that have gone on for centuries
and there's still like a culture of fabric where people
recognize each other and appreciate that shared history. But to
(09:19):
the loo Bean toe bag, yes, yes I had, I
had all five letters.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
I love how I said backpacking. You made it more
sophisticated into it.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
That's awesome back back too, But I would say I
grew up not using von trap and I think that's
an important thing in hindsight, because I got to sort
of be myself. When you have the family name, you
understandably get a lot of questions from pretty much everybody
about it, and sometimes people do ask you to sing.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
Well.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
That brings up an interesting question. Because the movie is
the most recent, I guess there been subsequent sort of
Broadway shows or things like that. But do the young
people know any more? Do fourteen year olds or twelve
year olds ask you? Or is it all people my age?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I think it breaks down into a lot of different groups.
I mean, the world over, it's a pretty positive sound
of music.
Speaker 6 (10:10):
I should say that the nineteen sixty five.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Was a really uplifting, heartfelt good feel movie that well
actually definitely lacking it. Really it touched people the world over,
and so I think definitely our our parents, grandparents' generations
know of it. I think that people now know of
it more as like you know, clickbait on BuzzFeed.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
But that's okay.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
This time last year, I was a high school history teacher,
they know, and I would use it whether we were
talking about us in the nineteen thirties, forties or in
the nineteen sixties. I also taught at twelfth grade elective
called Holocaust Studies, and they would indulge my tangent, probably
because it gave them less work to do about the
(10:55):
historical memory of the von Trapp family and the sounds
of music.
Speaker 5 (10:58):
The teenagers definitely know and care.
Speaker 6 (11:01):
Yeah, that's so interesting, you know.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
And in your book, Rebecca, there's a piece and I
guess I'm taking us a little bit off of path,
but you know, you talk about at the end of
the chapter about my family, about how people perceived the family,
you know, as being non Jewish, and you know, I
think it's interesting to look at what was going on
in America and what the general attitudes were towards people
(11:24):
leaving the continent, and if Americans even knew the difference
between Germany and Austria. And here's my family kind of
touring around the US wearing Darndall's and laters, and like
they were often asked like why did you leave if
you weren't Jewish? Like you know where you spy? It's
just it's wild.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Well that reminds me the whole later Osen craze in
the sixties, which unfortunately my mother was part of and
dressed us up like that. But perhaps what fascinates me
the most about this story is, well, first of all, Rebecca,
you write all the myths that have come up about it,
But I'm so fascinated by gay Org van traps naval
(12:03):
career and distancing himself from the Nazis. What fascinates me
is that he gets interested in the technology, the new
technology of the Nazi U boats, right, and he thinks, oh,
this is kind of interesting, and very briefly thinks, well,
you know, I'd really love to pilot one of these things.
But then his hatred of Nazi ideology overcomes that and refuses.
(12:25):
Now that's what I've always read in reliable sources. Now
that you tell me, is that true?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Well, I preface it by saying I wasn't alive then,
so I too, am on accounts and documented things. You know,
there are a lot of facts about the family that
are in well reputable published books from major publishing houses
that they reflect like the telephone game. But I from
those that have been doing research, I know this that
(12:52):
gay Org went from working on like old wooden sailing
ships and he went around the world twice, ended up
in the Boxer rebellion, and came home, had more studying,
and then volunteered himself to be a part of this
new initiative to develop the U boat, the submarine. And
in those days it was like open gasoline engines and
(13:13):
these like wooden hulls that were reinforced with steel, and
it was really rudimentary, like the scopes wouldn't go down
fast enough, and they had no way of having any
sort of radar or navigation system. And they learned by
trial and error, and it was a lot of like
you know, things went wrong and they did right. So
he was actually a part of the early development I
(13:37):
guess I would say the submarines, and he married into
a family who invented the torpedo. His wife's grandfather, Robert Whitehead,
invented it with the hope of sort of deterring violence
in war, and he met her when one of the
U boats was being christened and she played violin, and
he continued to work on them. And so I think,
(14:01):
in my understanding, the family was pretty anti Nazi from
the start. They were very aware of what was going
on in Germany. People were going missing. They had a
family friend who was what we would refer to as
handicapped these days, and she had just vanished without a trace.
My grandmother Eleanor had teachers in school that were replaced
(14:22):
five people that were parroting the Nazi ideology, and so
I think they were pretty resistant. Gay Or was presented
by Hitler or through the Nazis, with an opportunity to
work on the submarines that they had, and I think
he was curious about what had kind of come with
the technology. But I don't think he was as tempted
(14:44):
as is betrayed.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Right well, I certainly said that in our original show.
But it is fascinating that you know so many military
people who were interested in the military, then have to decide, well,
I'm interested in the military, and I'm interted in all
the these new things. But you know, this Nazi stuff
has really not is really immoral. So it's a dilemma
(15:07):
for Georg von trop maybe for fifteen seconds, but for
other people it might have been a dilemma for a
long time.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah, I think I can go as far as to
say you was a monarchist and he wasn't. He was
very skeptical of both the principles of the movement, but
also it felt very strange, the fervor that had sort
of come over the land, and you know, putting it
back on the historical and the cultural lens, I think
is an important reminder for us. All of like, post
(15:34):
World War One, Austria was pretty war torn. You know,
there wasn't really food, it was it was a struggle.
People tried to stand up and take various leadership opportunities,
and then of course the Depression came through, So it
was a tough time and I think I think unfortunately
the Nazis capitalized on that.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Well, let's get to the story in the movie we
see and when I see in the movie Buzz killers.
I'm presuming, although I never saw the stage play the musical,
that the musical and the movie are basically the same.
In plot, young Maria is trying to become a nun
and in a convent, and she's always distracted by running around,
singing in the hills and all sorts of you know,
(16:14):
interesting things. That's hard for her to keep her mind
under studies and everything, and so the abbess sends her
off to gay Org Van Trapp's family as a governess.
Now do we know how much truth there is to
that part of the story that you know, she's following
her heart or whatever, or is there just not enough information?
Speaker 6 (16:31):
There's none of that is accurate, really sweet.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
So Maria had grown up with a pretty tumultuous upbringing.
She was orphaned at a young age and spent various
time with family.
Speaker 6 (16:43):
She spent some.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Time in music with the Newland Choir, which brought about
some of the religiosity that we see later on. She
also went to teachers College, and so she was actually
teaching fifth grade at Nulmburg Abbey. And in sort of
a you know, a screen split, you have have the
on Trap Household, where Agatha Whitehead had just passed away
from Scarlett fever in nineteen twenty two, and some of
(17:07):
the children had also gotten it, and one of the daughters, Maria.
We referred to them to sort of differentiate. There's Maria Francisca,
who's the daughter, and then Maria Augusta, who's Maria. But
Maria Francisca had contracted Scarlett fever and was really lagging
in her studies, so Gayor hired Maria Augusta to come
(17:27):
and be her math tutor.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Oh, math tutor. Okay, that's very, very interesting. But you
get the impression in the film that the kids and
the father and everything have always been singing as a
group for a long time, and Maria just sort of
reinvigorates that. Is that true or does she bring singing
into the house.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
She has often given credit for that, and it's quite unfair.
Speaker 6 (17:48):
Let's zoom out a little bit.
Speaker 7 (17:49):
So.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
One of Gayorg's grandfathers was doctor Edward Christian Trapp. He
was a physician. He's from a long line of physicians.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
He was known for.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Rediscovering the minerals rings and I think bought Homburg for
their health purposes.
Speaker 6 (18:03):
And he was married to Baroness from Hess. They had
a really warm, supportive home.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
And then when Gayorg's parents got together, they did the same.
They also had a big culture of music in their household.
Gaye Org, I'm trying to remember the full list. So
gay Org he learned to play the violin, fiddle, guitar, medoline,
and harmonica, and he sang. And this was through his youth,
(18:30):
through his time as in service. You know, he was
spending time with all these soldiers from all over the
empire who spoke different languages, played different music. And he
actually married Agatha Whitehead, who had mentioned before, the granddaughter
of Whitehead, torpedo creator, and she'd grown up surrounded by music.
She played the piano, the violin, and she sang. So
(18:51):
the household they had was a really warm musical space.
The kids all played things that the parents taught them,
and then also had formalogic and so like I mean,
Rupert played the accordion, piano recorder, he sang, Agatha played
the guitar, piano recorder, sang. Maria the younger accordion, violin,
(19:11):
piano recorder, sang like It's it's definitely this pattern and
I think culturally that was much more commonplace certainly amongst
the noble, like the more leisure class where they would
have done.
Speaker 6 (19:22):
That at the time.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
So music was a daily endeavor in their home. The
kids were constantly singing, riffing, playing around, but it was
typically the more formal trained music. Maria grew up being
exposed to more folk songs and Christian songs with the
Newlin school, and so when she came in, she brought
definitely guitar, but she also had this very casual folks
(19:46):
song singing, and they all together kepped up that custom
of music.
Speaker 6 (19:50):
In the home.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
So then what happens, what's the actual sort of turning
point when they have to get out of Austria. You know,
in the movie, it's seen that the Nazis are coming
to the door and they're insisting that gay Or join
the navy and take up his assignment and all sorts
of stuff, and there's going to be this folk festival,
so that the family uses a folk festival as a
(20:13):
way to escape after while the audience is still applauding.
But we know the historians, we all know that that's
not correct. But I'd like to know more about the
detail of how that actually happens.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
I think it's complex. There is more sort of pressure
in the family. Gailorg had been offered a role in
the navy, which he was like a household name, as
a really well I think, the highest decorated naval officer
coming off of the war, so it would have been
more an endorsement. I think to have him in the
navy might have inspired him the Nationalists. And then Rupert,
(20:49):
who was the eldest. He was not Liezel, he was Rupert.
Rupert had actually become an Austrian citizen in order to
go to school in Innsbruck and had finished his medical
studies and it was just sort of applying for early roles.
You know, he's green, fresh out of med school, and
this opportunity to work in a significant role in Vienna
(21:10):
came up, and the family was aware that that role
had been taken away from a Jewish professional and that
was not interesting. Maria had also had a brush in
with Hitler at a cafe where she observed his personal
behavior as just being sort of gruff, rude, gross or
descriptors I've heard over the years. And there was another
(21:32):
situation where somebody, a gang of kids on a bike
brought they were Nazis but young ones. They brought a
silk flag to the house and Geor refused to fly it,
and he was brought down to the local station and
sort of interrogated. And you know, there's this quip that
he's referred to as saying, you know, why would I
hang this? I'd much rather hang one of our oriental
(21:52):
rugs over the banister. But I think the actual turning
point came from realizing that they were in real danger.
There was a butler in the home who was a
Nazi sympathizer, who'd warned them, please don't discuss this at
the dinner table, like please don't discuss politics. I'll'll have
to report you. I don't want to where you. He'd
work for them for a long long time, and they
(22:14):
kept him on but honored that boundary. And they'd gotten
word that they were not safe, they were on a list,
and that they should go. And I also think that
gay Org probably had ties to the intelligence community from
his war efforts. He certainly was in touch with a
lot of different officers at the time, and I'm under
(22:35):
the impression that they were tipped off that the orders
will be closing and they should leave.
Speaker 6 (22:40):
But before they could leave.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
They had to sign a contract giving them sort of
reason to go, and they signed a contract that had
come in from the States where they could do a
music tour. And what's not known as commonly is so
the family was sort of known for Gayorg's military service,
and then as a sort of second wave of notoriety,
they became known as professional musicians singing throughout the continent
(23:04):
more folk songs and traditional Austrian songs. They had had
audiences with Pope and all sorts of storied individuals, and
they regularly appeared on the radio in conjunction with gay
Org's talks promoting his memoir which has been translated to
English as to the Last Salute, and they were well
(23:25):
known musicians. They had actually also been asked to participate
in Hitler's birthday program on the radio and said no,
and that's a last but it's important, and I'm sort
of digressing a little bit and saying, you know.
Speaker 6 (23:39):
And as historians were.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Looking at the myths and the lore and the official
records and the games of telephone, the play out was
we look at what's happened in the past. And that's
one example where the family anecdote for a long time
was they were asked to play at Hitler's birthday party.
So I know as a child when I heard that story,
I'm picturing Hitler earn a room, at a table, there's
(24:02):
a birthday cake, You're singing at a birthday party.
Speaker 6 (24:04):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Well, I recently learned it wasn't that. It wasn't that
at all, and so that's what the minds I filled in.
But in truth, what it was was this nationwide radio
program where people from all over the nation were asked
to come and sing their songs as like an honorary
offering for Hitler on the occasion of his birthday, which
they said not.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Well, then, Rebecca, this is where you come in and
Miss Perkins and the US government and other things company
because of this contract.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Yes, definitely, and I will not forget to circle back
to that.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
After backing it for a second, I just wanted to.
Speaker 4 (24:40):
Highlight the flag detail, which is one of the likely
examples from real life and also in the movie. The
reason that stands out to me is because the image
of Christopher Plumber ripping up the Nazi flag, even if
that's not how it happened, conveys strong politic kolwait I
(25:00):
think as a gift on the Internet and in the
memories before and after the Sounds of Music book by
Agatha von Trapp, there are a few detailed examples of.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Why they were looking to leave.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
And the example that Carlo also mentioned about Rupert receiving
the job, that if Jewish doctors weren't being removed from
their positions unjustly, he probably would not have received That
example really stands out to me because it connects so
closely with the Nazi Party platform of nineteen twenty and
also as the two ideas of the Nazi Party were
(25:41):
to remove Jewish people from citizenship and to elevate and
really accelerate the lives of people who counted as citizens
who were not Jewish in Nazi territory. And so just
that example of not taking the Jewish job that was
offered to him comes across as powerful, and I said,
I won't forget to circle back. So bringing us back
(26:04):
to the contract, Agatha writes in the memoir that they
left with their passports, which is important because that was
necessary to enter the US and many people fleeing Nazis
did not have them anymore. There's an academic book called
The Invention of the passport. That highlights how increasingly throughout
(26:24):
the Nazi regime people who were trying to leave had
been stripped of their documents.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Well, the von Trapps had.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Their passports, they also had their visitors di visas, and
they had their contract. The contract for the singing tour
in the US enabled the visitors visas. So a chapter
of my book Dear Miss Perkins, which is called Dear
Miss Perkins.
Speaker 5 (26:44):
The chapter it's chapter.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Seven, is about many examples of relatively well off because
they were able to get roles in the US, but
also relatively unknown people, including the von Trapp family singers.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
This was before the Sounds of music who.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Had visitor visas, And this was one of the policies
that Secretary of Labor Francis Perkins used to aid refugees
from Nazi Germany. There were other things that she did too,
but the reason that the number of lives that her
efforts saved is in the tens of thousands is because
after Crystal knocked in November nineteen thirty eight, she urged
(27:22):
President Franklin D. Roosevelt to make extending visitor visas the
official policy of the executive branch, and he did so
visitor visas were one way to be in the US.
There were also quota visas, where the wait list for Hungary,
for example, was ten to twelve years long, non quota visas,
(27:42):
which usually required specific professional expertise, and then visitor visas,
which might be business like a singing tour, or it
might be pleasure like someone who is visiting family in
the US. And Francis Perkins would ad hoc extend these visas,
which she did for the von Trapp family once in
the spring of nineteen forty and once in the fall
(28:03):
of nineteen forty. Though after that point the Immigration Naturalization
Service had actually moved to the Department of Justice, so
she was actually putting in a word, to a different department.
But this ad hoc extension of visitor visas was really
a patchwork, piecemeal system that was very imperfect, but it
(28:24):
did allow people to stay in the US when their
lives would be uncertain at best or ended at worst
if they had to return.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
You know what's interesting is because Rupert had become an
Austrian citizen for his schooling. So sorry I should rewind
by saying so. When the Empire crumbled after World War One,
they assigned citizenship based on not where people were born,
which is the common conception, but actually where they resided
at that time, And so because the family was based
(28:56):
out of Pola, the gay organist descendants received high citizenship
and Rupert would have defected from that to prepare for
his schooling in Innsbruck, and that would have made him
a German citizen effective immediately after the anschlus.
Speaker 6 (29:12):
And so I wondering and speculate, because that's really all
I can do.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That Rupert would have been allowed a permanent visa when
the rest of the family were visitors, because he was
actually a German at the time technically, and he was
a doctor, so we would have had specialized skills. But
it was important that that did happen because later on
they had to leave when their visa was extended and
do a tour in northern Europe. And when they came back,
(29:39):
my great grandmother was so relieved to be back in
the States and back sort of in safety, because things
were really, really hectic at the time that when the
immigrations officer, the customs officer asked her, well, how long
do you attend to stay, she said some quip like
I hope forever, and that's really not when you want
to say when you have a temporary.
Speaker 6 (30:00):
So that you're trying to secure.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
And so the family was locked up for I think
a couple of days. Rupert was able to I think
reach out to him as Perkins indirectly and get her
help and a few other people to try to get
them out. Maybe doctor Grant will help.
Speaker 6 (30:14):
Us with that one.
Speaker 5 (30:15):
That part is not confirmed.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
I say that it's likely because Rupert was reaching out
to people that he knew, and the von Trapps clearly
knew Gertrude Ely in Pennsylvania, who socialized with them, met
them on their first tour, and she was one of
Francis Perkins's best friends. Perkins had a very small inner circle,
and Gertrude Ely's portrait is in the Perkins family homestead
(30:38):
in Maine. But yes, the fact that Rupert is the
only person in the family at that point who had
an immigration visa that was permanent, and that permanent versus
temporary distinction is crucial because of the socially constructed system
that works on the premise that oh it's temporary, it
(31:00):
was temporary.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Perkins extended the.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
Visitor visas of other people who I mentioned in chapter seven,
who stayed in the US throughout the war, and then
they went back to somewhere else, often Italy. And then
I just wanted to highlight an important note that in
the US context, unfortunately, where they were born was pivotal
(31:24):
because of the National Origins Act of nineteen twenty four
that ran the quota system. So not the temporary visas,
which were not dependent on the quota, but the quota
immigration system from nineteen twenty four was based on where
each person was born. And not only that, but it
was based on where the patriarch of a family was born.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
By the way, nobody knows about Rupert. You know, he's
not in the movie, so everyone thinks Leesel's the oldest.
But there's this other Rupert who's actually grown adult in
doing these other things, and his story seems rather central
to the to getting the visas and getting out.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
Yeah, and I'd like to see a Rupert von Trapp biopic.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
I mean, I think he had a really interesting life.
I'm learning more about it going, you know, being in
touch with his brand to the family. I think it's
really good to think about too. There was a twenty
five year age difference between Marie and the captain, and
Maria was more of an age pair to the older
bad to children who would have I think been twenty
five twenty seven ish when they left. So that's interesting
(32:28):
and then worth raising. So what you mentioned about them
reaching out to Ms. Perkins, that matches my sort of
oral history in the family, and that had been the tradition.
They also work close with the Habsburgs and Zita, the
Empress former At the point Embersita was in touch with
(32:48):
the White House. She was helping to create this clandestine
military unit and sort of trying to launch that. So
I believe as well that they reached out through that channel.
And I don't think this connected, but I think it's
good to understand. Is that I had mentioned Gayorg's grandparents,
one being a physician and one being a baroness from Hess.
(33:12):
They had I think five children, one daughter, gay Org,
and then three other siblings. Two of those three had
ended up in the US well before World War One.
One of them helped on the Transatlantic Railroad and then
consulted on the assembly of the Brooklyn Bridge, and the
other one I don't really know much about, except that
(33:33):
he did have some sort of technical role, so they
were already stateside I have no idea if they were
in touch. I mean that would be gay Org's uncles,
so that is entirely possible too, that may have somehow
helped in the fringes.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
So this whole climbing over the mountains and walking to
Switzerland and all sorts of stuff, we all know that's
not true. They got on the train and left, and
they sort of got out through legal ways of visas
and stuff. But the whole story of it, the Rupert
story and everything else, is so much more fascinating and
so much more helpful for trying to understand the history
(34:11):
of what actually happened to people in the period. People
generally speaking don't escape by hiking over the Alps in
their later hosen and you know, writing gay or carrying
the youngest one on his back. As romantic as that seems,
it is fascinating how it's a combination of both government
bureaucracy and also Rupert wanting to get out, and then
(34:34):
people on the US side. That we love complications on
this show because that's what happens in history is very calm,
things very complicated, but also it tells us a lot
more than simply an inspirational hike.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Maybe this is demonstrative of American's grip on geography and
world history at that point.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yeah, well, yeah, there's that.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
In the nineteen sixty five film of portraying them walking
up over the Alps from Salzburg. That would end the
snackcab in the Eagles Nest, which was like a Nazi
based So it just darling story makes your great cinema.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
That detail is a gem.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
And I argue that in the context of the US
in the nineteen sixties, when the Sounds of Music achieved
widespread popularity, people broadly the public difficult to measure.
Speaker 5 (35:27):
But still important, needed to believe.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
That it was hard to get out of Nazi territory
and that it was easier to get into the US,
Whereas the reality is that for the von Trapp family singers,
it was easier to get out of Nazi territory and
harder to get into and to stay in the US.
They worked very hard to get here, they worked very
hard once they were here, And in that nineteen sixties context,
(35:54):
it also showed Americans that, look, the US provides did
a safe, mountainous home in Vermont for people who were
running from the Nazis. By taking Jewishness out of it,
by having the film focus on a family that was
not Jewish, the US didn't have to look at the
(36:15):
vhemin anti Semitism in the US in the nineteen thirties,
and that was definitely still present.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Okay, So then what happens when they're in America out
now again, I mean, I don't mean in the period
when they're in for a while and then they have
to go back, They go back on a northern tourn
and then they come back when they're sort of permanently
in America and the establishment of the Lodge in Stouve,
Vermont and all that. That's a fascinating story in itself
that isn't really covered, you know, certainly not covered in
(36:44):
the movie, and there wasn't a sequel to the movie.
So I think our listeners would love to hear that.
Speaker 6 (36:49):
Yeah, the lodge came about organically.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
They when they first lanted in Manhattan, they were staying
at the Wellington, and then they were able to stay
at the Drinkerge residence in pennsylvani Most of the time
they were traveling on a tour bus They performed from
when they arrived to I think nineteen fifty five and
became the most booked American musical performing act. That's like
(37:13):
their accolade. And they did that by going town by
town on a bus, performing at small venues like churches, schools, legions.
Speaker 6 (37:23):
That type of thing.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
They worked really, really hard. They did not have much.
There was no modern banking system to pull from what
was at home, and they were very fortunate to be
able to have some success. They were able to pay
back the funds that had been advanced to them and
they got to a surplus about two years into performing.
They had the dream still to return home. They really
(37:45):
hoped Austria in its true sense would prevail in this
and held onto those sentiments. But at some point it
became apparent that they were able to and needed to
have something more permanent than their home in Pennsylvania. And
so while they were touring on the bus, they came
to Vermont, and the way the story goes and the
family is that they found a place down by Woodstock
(38:07):
that was a farm, and they thought that they could
make a go of a farm. That terrain here Vermont
sort of is reminiscent of Elpin Austria, and the family
had some confidence in agriculture because during World War One,
the family had relocated to Lake Salems and had stayed
(38:28):
there with Agatha Whitehead's mother, and they had to raise
a lot of their own food in.
Speaker 6 (38:33):
Order to just survive because there wasn't any food.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
So they had some confidence from that and they decided
they could maybe buy a farm. Then from woodstock, they
ambled up root one hundred to Stow, Vermont, where they
found just this beautiful piece of property on a hill
overlooking the village, and it's got the most gorgeous scenery.
The natural beauty of the place is just really tremendous,
and they let go their deposit in woodstock and purchase
(38:58):
that farm. Started pretty small, sixty acres, and has been
added onto subsequently. I think it's up to like twenty
seven hundred acres well.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
But they also become popular in the United States in
the fifties and sixties. They become that there's a lot
of singing, there's a lot of attention paid to them
as entertainment. It is you know that people are inspired
by the story in a way, but they're also inspired
by the singing. I mean I remember Maria being interviewed
on television and I don't remember it, but I've seen
(39:28):
Marie interview it on television and all that sort of things.
So they're not stuck up in Stow, Vermont with you know,
snowed in and just running a hotel there. They are
actually out in the in American in broader American culture.
Speaker 6 (39:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
So in the forties is when the lodge was established,
I want to say forty one off the top of
my head.
Speaker 6 (39:53):
They were touring.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
They would spend summers typically on their property, farming, building houses,
like converting old ramshackle barns into a home, taking the
farmhouse that was there and working on it. It was
a pretty run down place when they bought it. And
as they were on tour, there's usually a performance and
(40:14):
then like an autograph time at the end. And they
also were promoting an Austrian Relief Incorporated group which sent
back materials from whoever would donate them back to Austria.
Georic was in touch with a lot of officers and
was trying to subsidize the starvation and the struggles that
were happening back homes. They would send things home and
(40:35):
they also would quite frankly say, we're in Vermont, you know,
come and see us. In nineteen fifty, this summer is
when they first started opening the lodge to guests. There
had been this big boom and Stow after the war,
where all these tenth Mountain Division officers came home to
(40:56):
their respective communities all over the US and we're kind
of of board. They also enjoyed skiing and being in
the alpine, and so they invented a lot of the
rope to's chairlifts and cut the trails in what would
become the most of the modern ski resorts across the US.
And Stowe was especially that the Mountain was starting operations.
The Kennedys were coming. I think the Dalai Lama even
(41:19):
came and stayed at the lodge, and they'd have guests,
you know, come and stay in extra rooms. And then
they realized they could rent it out and it became
a bit of a more commercial structure, and then in
the summers they would have a music camp.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Wow, that's just fascinating. But then again, another thing happens
that certainly most Americans don't know. We think that the
von Trapp's story is told first by the musical and Broadway,
and then by the American film. But there's a nineteen
fifty six West German film first ten years before, almost
ten years before. So how did that happen and was
(41:58):
it part of West Germany's attempt is sort of to
celebrate its denocification and things like that. I haven't been
able to look into this like I wanted to, but
I'm gripped by the idea that it's the Germans who
come up with the film idea.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
First, I don't know enough about the what motivated well no,
I know about the progression, but I don't know and
can't release confidently speak to what motivated them to make
the film.
Speaker 6 (42:25):
Maria had been encouraged.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
To write a biography as a part of the press
initiatives to promote their singing and their record sales, because
at that point they were recording artists. So she wrote
her biography, the Story of the Trap Family Singers. Sorry,
that was the first one, and somebody came and said,
can we buy the rights to this and make a
(42:49):
movie out of you? And so in nineteen fifty six
she saw her story become Die Trap Fummy, which is
the Trap Family. And then two years later they did
a follow up sequel, Die Trap Family in America, which
is tough filmily in America, and those were incredibly popular
in West Germany and the post war years, and she
(43:11):
sold At first they just wanted to buy the name,
and she said, nope, you have to buy all the
rights to the story.
Speaker 6 (43:20):
Horribly misguided in hindsight, and.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
So she sold the rights to the story to them
for a very small amount of funds relative to what
they became and those movies. Paramount Pictures purchased the rights
to those stories in nineteen fifty six and they wanted
to make another film, and they wanted to have Audrey
(43:43):
Hepburn play Maria, and the studio eventually didn't pursue that option,
and they instead sort of one of the directors proposed
a story of a stage musical from Aaron Martin, who
I understand was fresh off Peter Pan and South Pacific
and had some momentum, and they bought the rights and
hired Lindsay and Kraus to put it together, who then
(44:06):
approached Rogers and Hammerstine and said, you know, will you
help us with one song for the musical? And they said, well,
we don't think our styles are going to work very well.
Instead of blend the styles, we want to rewrite all
the music for it, And so they did, and then
bring Mary Martin. In nineteen fifty nine the Broadway production began.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
Oh, the only detail of historical contexts I can add
about West Germany is probably not even helpful. Just the
fact that it was occupied by the US after World
War Two, and that it was still American controlled in
the nineteen fifties, and that in the broader story of
Holocaust memory in the US, the Americans wanted to ally
(44:49):
themselves with West Germany and protect and preserve West Germany
in opposition to East Germany and the Soviet Union. They're
just the fact that the film was in West Germany.
It sounds like something that would be consistent with American
ideas and narratives.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
When the Broadway musical comes out, and then when the
film comes out. You know, in our original show about
this and am I reading about this, you know, we
talk about all the myths in the film, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. But I don't really know how
the family, the family itself reacted to the musical and
(45:29):
the film. Did they like it, did they think you know, oh,
you know, Rupert is not in there at all, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. What's that story?
Speaker 3 (45:37):
From my understanding from my great aunts and uncles and
what I was told as a child by them, and
what I've read in their interviews is they were very
glad to not have their own names on the children,
because then you are having to differentiate yourself from what's
portrayed of you. And that was very challenging in the
(45:57):
instance of Maria and the Captain, because of in real life,
Maria and the Captain are not the way they are casted.
If anything, I would flip the disposition. Gay Ork was
really soft and gentle and warm, and Maria was challenging.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Oh that's interesting.
Speaker 5 (46:15):
That's an American gender role.
Speaker 4 (46:17):
There's actually so in terms of sounds and music scholarship,
a lot of it is in like cultural media studies
through a gender lens. That just sounds like American audiences
want the man to get to be cold and the
woman to have to be warm in order to be
well perceived anyway. In Agatha's memoir The Memories Before and
(46:38):
After the Sounds of Music, she writes, quote, when I
saw the musical for the first time.
Speaker 5 (46:43):
I cried.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Others in my family were equally upset. The man on
the stage in the naval uniform was not Papa. The
play and later the movie as beautiful as they were,
misrepresented our life at home.
Speaker 6 (46:55):
End quote.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Yeah, that's fascinating. That's exactly what I was looking for.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Their reaction, and it's a mixed blessing because of course
they're running a commercial venture at the time, a family
commercial venture, a lodge resort, and so that benefited them immensely,
but it also was very challenging.
Speaker 6 (47:12):
As Rebecca aptly.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
Contributed, and this group of children now know very much
adults in their elder years. They had kind of lost
their family's privacy a little bit when Gayorg had become
a national hero. He was like on the front page
of all the paper's household name back in Sal's work,
and then when they became touring group, they kind of
lost sur priscy for a second time.
Speaker 6 (47:34):
And then when the.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
Movie came out, it made them really public figures and
it almost erased their musical contribution, and that I think
was actually painful because they gave their lives to be
like performing artists.
Speaker 6 (47:47):
That was their lives and part of where the.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
Younger generations have stepped into wanting to understand more about
these historical facts is that for my grandparents' generation and
my parents' generation.
Speaker 6 (47:58):
Some people really did not want to talk about this stuff.
Speaker 3 (48:02):
Some did, and a lot of lore was passed on
some stories. Interviews with Kevin and I think it's now
that things have been digitalized the world over that we're
having more easy accessed information, and also I think more
courage to look at things in a historical and cultural lens.
Speaker 4 (48:20):
Maybe this is extremely related, and maybe it's not. I
love the movie like I just love the movie.
Speaker 5 (48:28):
I find it to be life affirming.
Speaker 4 (48:30):
My critique of the historical and cultural contexts comes from
a place of finding the sounds of music to be
life affirming.
Speaker 5 (48:39):
Who doesn't want to laugh?
Speaker 4 (48:41):
Like a book is it trips and falls over stones
in its way. Like anytime I'm reading about this or
studying it, I just come back to there are elements
in it that I think are universal and I like it.
Speaker 7 (48:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
I think their true history, especially in their culture and
historical contexts, is important. I'm really proud of the real humans,
the ancestors, hustle, determination, grace, as they navigated decades of global.
Speaker 6 (49:09):
And personal turmoil.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
And the movie too is one of grit and faith
in tenacity, and I think that is that is something
that they.
Speaker 6 (49:19):
Both parties really shared.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
And you know, I grew up watching The Sun of
Music before I even knew it was my family story,
and it was this beautiful movie and it's actually it's
been really a connection point, I think for a lot
of generations.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
But we have to end on what is my favorite
sound of music myth, and that is about the song
Adelweiss because so many Americans, I think, because of the
film thought and my parents used to say that, oh, Adelwis,
that's the Austrian national song, not maybe not national anthem,
but they believed it was the Austrian national song, when
in fact it was written by Rogers and Hammerstein in whatever,
(49:54):
you know, sixty four whatever they sat down to write,
write to play. Yet that sort of remain lots of people,
I hear this a lot, want to talk about the
sound of music. Oh I love Austrians, must love the
fact that they have such a beautiful song as their
national treasure, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and all
the Austrian friends I've had over the years. This drives
them nuts because they sing, no, that's not our national song.
(50:17):
It was made up.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah, it's a much more beautiful song about in melodic sound.
I think about Land of Mountains than by the Rivers,
the translation to the title of the Austrian national song
Landenberger Landomstrom. I'm probably butchering that I don't speak German,
but but you know, I was actually told Joe that
Adelweis was made up backstage one night before they went
(50:40):
on as more of an impromptu contribution to the Broadway show.
And I don't know if that's fact. That's something we
could all maybe dig into sometime, but.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
If it is, it's just like all too Well by
Taylor Swift, made up backstage with a real impact.
Speaker 6 (50:54):
So I love the Yes we draft.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
We know it's the twenty twenties when you bring a
Taylor Swift reference something.
Speaker 4 (51:01):
But back to the nineteen nineties. In addition to my
Sounds of Music VHS, I had.
Speaker 5 (51:05):
A talking globe.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
It had a little pen and you clicked on each
country and one of its features was it played the
national anthem. And I was so convinced as a single
digit age kid that I thought. I mean, I thought
that adel device was a national anthem. I was so
convinced that I thought that the Globe was wrong. Like
I had this toy that was from who knows what
educational company. You know, played the star spangled banner for
(51:29):
the US, and when you touched Austria, it did not
play adelvice and therefore I assumed it was misinformed.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Well there you go the problems of American toy manufacturer
as well. I would just like to say thank you
so much, Carlor for coming on the show. It's been
so nice to meet you. First of all, it's been
so nice to hear these stories. It's been so nice
to know that you knew your great uncles and aunts
the children in the film and were able to talk
(51:56):
to them about things. And of course Rebecca Graham, doctor
of Graham is just fabulous contribute to the fabulous member
of the Buzzkill Institute. Now we're so grateful, So thank
you both.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
Thanks for having me, and thanks so much Rebecca for
writing this book that you wrote about Miss Perkins. I
think our family owes a debt of honor to her,
and I'm glad that you've talked about that and important
cultural issues around her time in office.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Thank you both very much, and we're going to leave
you folks with of course, Adelweiss, followed by the genuine
Austrian national anthem. Talk to you next.
Speaker 8 (52:29):
Time, my fellow questions, I shall not be seeing you again,
perhaps one of very long time. I would like to
sing for you now, I love song. I know you
share this love.
Speaker 7 (52:51):
I pray that you will never let it die.
Speaker 9 (53:07):
A liddle viddle vies every morning you green, mean, small
and white, clean and bright. You look happy to me
(53:30):
me lossome of snormy you blue and grown, blue and
grow fiver haiddle vice, haddle vice, Bless my homelandfall.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
And fu.
Speaker 10 (54:11):
Small and white cel broad you look happy to me.
Los s wis spa B small seat sound stop
Speaker 9 (58:04):
To ta
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