Civic Engagement Through Classroom Games with Kerry Flanagan-Owen | Episode 407 - Professor Game Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
also need to know what to do with it, right?
And that's where we think gaming really comes in, is that it gives kids the opportunity topractice.
So yes, we will definitely be diving to all those tips how where it works.
And as you know, this is the Professor Game Podcast where we interview people like Kerrywho are successful and experienced gamification, game based learning, game based solutions

(00:24):
and game thinking experts.
So we can gather all those insights and use it for our own situations and experiences.
And I'm Rob.
I am the founder and I'm a coach, a consultant, ad
Professor Game and I'm also a teacher professor at IU University, EBS University, EFMD andmany other places around the world.

(00:46):
And if the stuff that you're hearing here makes sense for you and you want to see how toimplement it, how to make the best of this so you can use this in your own experience,
feel free to book a clarity call.
Details in the description.

(01:08):
We have Kerry with us today, but Kerry, we need to know, are you prepared to engage?
Absolutely.
Let's do this because Carrie Flanagan Owen is the senior manager of learning design andthe Bill of Rights Institute.
She leads the development of free K through 12 civics, government and US historyresources.

(01:28):
And with a background in teaching and instructional coaching, Carrie brings deep expertisein designing, engaging, inquiry-driven experiences for classrooms nationwide.
Most recently, she spearheaded the creation of a series of card-based games as part of theInstitute's government and politics, civics,
for the American experiment curriculum using play to bring abstract civic concepts to lifefor high school students.

(01:52):
Kerry, there any, all the bunch of exciting stuff you're doing, there anything else thatwe should be mentioning at this point before we dive into the questions?
I think you got it.
Amazing, amazing.
Sounds great.
So, Kerry, what do days look like with you?
If we were to follow you, shadow you around for a day, week, month, whatever you want togo for.

(02:13):
What does that look like?
What are you doing these days?
Yeah.
So at the Bill of Rights Institute, like nothing is the same.
No day is quite the same, which is really exciting.
And I, as you mentioned, I lead our learning design work and I spend a lot of timecollaborating with our content and our design team to think through how we can make civic
learning more meaningful and engaging for students.

(02:36):
Cause you know, a lot of the times people think this is just boring content.
And it's like, yes, it has that veneer, but it's actually super important.
And it can be really fun and engaging to do.
And so some days that looks like I'm reviewing just lessons and content that we'redeveloping.
Other days I'm kind of mapping out uh strategy and like the direction that we're going togo, what new things we're thinking about trying um and how different things kind of work

(03:04):
within the scope of what we're trying to do.
I get to work closely with different partners.
So sometimes that's game designers.
Like on this particular project, we worked with the amazing team at Game Genius, which isRoddy McKenzie and Peter Williamson, who I believe has been on the show before.
Yes, indeed.
Yeah, he's fantastic.
They are great collaborators.

(03:25):
And sometimes it's scholars, other educators.
We really try and make sure that we bring in the voice of...
people that are in the trenches uh because they can be the people who have like the mostto know about what's happening.
um And then we try and make sure that what we're building is creative, but also classroomready.
And a lot of what I do is kind of involves, guess, like connecting the dots between thepedagogy, the design, the creation, the content, that student experience, just trying to

(03:57):
make sure it's all uh something that.
could actually be used in the classroom for educators.
And then outside of work, I am also the parent of a toddler, which is a whole differentexperience, but also a very good experience in game design.
Because if you know anything about toddlers, every day is different.

(04:21):
every day is the same.
Same, same, right?
And it's like, how do you motivate?
How do you redirect spark curiosity?
So even just this morning, our favorite thing is, uh have you seen the mouse timer?
It's this little mouse who eats apples every 15 seconds to lead up to cheese.
And so our game is, can we get dressed before the mouse gets to the cheese?

(04:47):
So every day, it's a challenge.
I actually am using the timer for meals right now because for some reason, like she hasour lunch and school in under 30 minutes every time, every single time because they have
30 minutes and that's it.
They don't have more time.
At home, we got to spend one and a half hours on lunch and dinner, not breakfast.

(05:11):
em One and a half hours, like that's insane.
Initially, it's like, well, she's learning how to eat, like the whole mechanic of that.
And it was awesome.
Like I was super, super excited to see her grabbing the spoon, the fork, the knife.
But then it's like, well, we've been through this and I know that you do the same thing atschool.
They have two turns.
There's 16 kids, so eight and eight.

(05:33):
I know you do it in 30 minutes.
So you're using a timer for every sort of stage of the meal.
you use stages as well, like 10, 15.
And she can see it.
Like it's very visual.
It's not, it's not a
phone timer.
a timer that's moving.
The rainbow timer, yep, as well.
It's amazing what time constraints can do for them.

(05:55):
And very visual, like very visualized that you can see it there.
And without screens, which was a challenge as well.
And we were talking about civics education before and history and politics and all that.
And it was like for me, literally, um well, next to biology, maybe like the worst subjectwas everything related to civics.

(06:16):
Everything related to that.
uh Biology, like I did well in both of them.
any civic stuff and biology.
did okay.
I did a lot better in math and other stuff.
But I just hated it.
It was horrible for me.
But I for it.
I figured there was a reason.
When I got to high school, they gave me this like huge, you know, world history book.

(06:42):
And for some reason, I kind of liked it a little bit better.
But then I graduated and went to university and started seeing other things andunderstanding how
Because that was the problem.
And I realized very quickly that it was, you know, all these civic stuff and history is onwhat date, what day, you know, what happened.
It's like, who cares?

(07:04):
Like no one cares of exactly it.
Maybe a sequencing thing where you see a timeline and this happened after this.
And that's what led to this.
That's interesting.
That's just memorizing how many rivers are in this city.
You know, what are the rivers?
oh
it doesn't feel applicable, Like, we hear so often like, I didn't like civics or historyor government and when I was in school, it didn't make sense to me.

(07:29):
Like, so much of what you do in school is really about just kind of basic knowledgegaining, right?
Like, knowing what something is, how it works, or how it's supposed to work, right?
It's a lot of theory.
And that's just doesn't feel real to kids, especially like-
even get all those things without the July 4th and 1876th.

(07:55):
Exactly.
And that's our goal.
It's like we want people to walk away like one, I want you to know because you have toknow, but you also need to know what to do with it.
Right.
And that's where we think gaming really comes in is that it gives kids the opportunity topractice.
The content is great.
We love the content.
I think it's really important.
But what I always talk about is like, you're probably going to forget a lot of the contentwhen you're like 30, 40 years old.

(08:21):
But you have to know
how to act.
You have to have the skills to.
Even two weeks from now, you'll forget everything.
Exactly, some of us do, right?
And so we think giving kids opportunities to play with those skills and do it is what'sgoing to make the impact of like how they're participating later on down the road.

(08:46):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And we were talking about toddlers.
If you hear anything in Gagers or Carrie, it's my daughter just walking around the next.
Like I have an isolated door and know, wall.
There's no way that that is not a studio, a real studio.
So that happens.
um Carrie, let's actually jump into story mode.
um You know, you've done all these things and you have some exciting experience.

(09:06):
How about a time where things just did not work out?
Maybe eventually they did and we want to get there too, but
How does that fail or first attempt in learning go?
Like we want to be there, feel the pain and take those lessons and not feel the painourselves in our own stories later.
Failure happens a lot in game design, right?
Like you have these big ideas of how something's meant to work or like what you want it tolook like.

(09:29):
And then you actually put it in front of somebody and it just like goes completelysideways.
We had that happen.
We were designing a game around the court system.
We would call it courtship.
And the earliest version was kind of this pitch deck style experience where
the students would get this kind of really random prompt and make a pitch to try and win acase.

(09:54):
And then it would like move up through the court systems.
And like, like the farther it went, you had to keep adding to that pitch.
ah And we first tested it with like a small group of adults because like we're not inschools right now.
And so that can be difficult to do.
So we gathered up some, some colleagues and uh

(10:14):
There's always that one person right that is willing to just like dive ahead and dive feetfirst into this and just Let go of all inhibitions and do something and it went super
super sideways, right?
It just thinks he was saying we're like really inappropriate.

(10:34):
You're like, no, this is a workplace, dude You can't do that.
We can't say that and they just made us realize how much
the likelihood of students doing that as well, right?
If you've ever been.
in the workplace with all that you know awareness and you know the job and all and themoney around the job and my like if they still do it imagine

(10:57):
imagine a kid, right, who has like no ability to like self rationalize what's going on.
Yeah.
And so we're like, okay, that's probably not our best choice, right?
That is a constraint.
We're going to have to pull in some constraints here to make things a little bit morefocused and to really think about also the teacher experience, right?

(11:19):
We want teachers to feel like...
this is safe to do in the classroom, especially in the climate that we have these dayswhere like some teachers are like, if it doesn't fit exactly into my scope and sequence,
if it doesn't fit exactly into my standards, like they're kind of, they can be a littleclosed off to new things.
And so we really realized we had to put some parameters on things.

(11:40):
We had to really think through what the, um what ambiguity there is in the game and how tokind of structure that in a way.
that makes it feel safe for both students and educators.
um And so we kind of revised that, gave it a different focus while keeping some of thatwhimsy, but kind of putting those guardrails on it for teachers.

(12:04):
Giving it some stuff, to make sure.
Some limits in that sense and that's good.
We were talking about toddlers.
Toddlers, know, they need love and all that and they need some limits.
Like this is something you can't do.
Like approaching the kitchen when it's hot, putting your hand there is just...
I'm not gonna let you test how that feels so you know not to do it in the future.
That's something you're just not going to do.

(12:27):
Good lesson on testing for what not to have happen.
Fantastic, fantastic.
Love it.
So if you were to approach an experience and I'm sure you've done stuff after, how do youdo it differently to make sure that this is sort of considered this mindset of, oh yeah,
can do many things, but not just everything.

(12:48):
Not just everything.
We always kind of start with our ultimate goal.
So by like focusing in on like one concept or one skill.
Like we found that, you know, in civics and history of government in particular, it alwaysfeels like there's so much you need in order for something to feel successful.

(13:11):
And I think that's not true.
um That you can build concept.
build conceptual knowledge and even some content knowledge by focusing in very, verytightly on one thing.
And so that's kind of how we approached most of our games is what's the one thing, like ifthey walk away with nothing else, what's the one thing that they've been working on in

(13:34):
that game?
And so that has been kind of our primary focus.
uh So for example, like communication or in particular,
communication for collaboration and consensus building is something that's super hard forteachers to do, right?
um It's one thing to tell students, like, you need to collaborate and you need to learnhow to compromise and this is how you do it.

(14:01):
Like, that is not very fun for kids to do and it also doesn't really transfer in the longterm.
So, you know, we've really focused our games
several of our games on that particular skill and finding ways to help them negotiate witheach other in different circumstances.

(14:26):
Awesome.
Awesome.
love that.
Quick pause.
Um, I think you, you bumped the table for a sec.
heard that entirely.
Just watch out just in case.
No worries.
No worries.
So Carrie, we went through that difficult time.
What are the lessons you've learned?
And of course you've also had very successful things that have happened.

(14:47):
And even that experience, I'm sure was successful eventually.
Can you talk about a time where things went well, like a success example, a proud moment,something you want to share?
And of course, let us know what do you think helped you get to that point.
Something that went well and success.
um It's hard to pick stuff, right?

(15:09):
Who's your favorite kid?
It's been, you know what, we have a game, it's called Fed Up, and it's kind of niche.
um It is really about the Federalist and the Anti-Federalist, like the wholeconstitutional debate uh following, during ratification and all of that.

(15:37):
And it's kind of based along the lines of
priorities if anybody is kind of trying to find something that it compares to.
um And we took it to a conference last year and we had staff um who aren't typicalteachers uh kind of model it at our booth that we were hosting.

(16:03):
And the most hilarious thing was to see people who like
understand what the content is, but maybe that's not their primary role in ourorganization.
These are mostly our salespeople, our development people, people who don't necessarilyhave degrees in history like our content team does.

(16:30):
To see them get super excited about the game and get into it and do that kind ofcompetition and where they're...
pulling crowds in from the people walking by the booth.
And all of a sudden you hear like hearing people like shout about like, they got it right.
It's like, it can happen.

(16:51):
Like it works.
To see something like that is really exciting because it says that there's something tonot just the mechanic of how the game is working, but also that the things that we were
trying to get out of it, the collaboration, the communication between people.
the negotiation, um the ability to kind of disagree with people, which is something thatwe really kind of hone in on.

(17:19):
Like there were arguments happening in a really kind of um playful way that shows like, wecan disagree on something and still like walk away like high-fiving because we had a lot
of fun over this game.
And that to me is like really exciting to see when we were thinking about.
that were some of those are some of the outcomes we were looking for.

(17:41):
That sounds awesome.
Absolutely awesome.
Like getting people excited about these things is like primarily exactly what you'redoing.
So couldn't be more on spot, right?
The game itself has like arcane terms and weird vocabulary and you're like, nobody'sgonna, like, are people really gonna get excited about this?

(18:02):
And they do.
And it just draws out something in people of just like, they might not 100 % understandwhat the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists are, but they're getting the concept of what
we're trying to get to in that people can disagree and walk away still friends.
Awesome.
Carrie, if you, well, when you approach new projects, right?

(18:26):
You just were talking about this one.
When you finish that one or when the next one is coming, coming in, what does that looklike?
Do you have a process?
Do you have a system?
How did, you know, they come in?
How do you figure out what you want to do?
How are you going to do it?
What are the mechanics?
What are, you know, what's the game going to look like?
Yeah.
So I think I mentioned earlier, we always kind of start with like, what's that one conceptor skill that we're trying to focus in on.

(18:51):
And that is really our key because when we think about the difference, we've kind of takena lot of the skills that we think are important in civics and we've mapped them to various
mechanics.
So thinking about what are those kind of...
civic outcomes in terms of like, you take different perspectives?

(19:13):
Can you negotiate and build consensus?
Like those kinds of things.
And then we have kind of a chart that we've been working with that looks at those skillsand finds them like matches with a mechanic that we might want to draw out.
And so for example, I tried to think of one of them.

(19:39):
If we're trying to get students to see a different perspective, role play becomes a reallyimportant thing.
We have a game that explores uh different regimes.
It is called Regime, but it looks at different kind of government systems.
And, you know, we want them to see those different perspectives of like why people mightuh find some government systems a little bit more like appealing than others.

(20:08):
uh And I mean, our goal is obviously always to like, hey, direct democracy orrepresentative democracy are our ideals.
But at the same time, like having students take on those different perspectives puts themin the place to better understand what those kind of systems are meant to do or how they
work.
so role perspec- taking on different roles is really important to us.

(20:32):
And so we kind of start from there.
And those are kind of our two big design ideas.
And then from there, we also try and find things that, because these are going into theclassroom, things that might reflect other games that teachers and students know.
So uh our party favors game uses things, uses like mechanics, like Pictionary andTelephone.

(20:58):
So those are things that people already get.
So we're hoping that
because they already understand the general mechanic or they have a game to compare it tothat they have played and they're familiar with, they're able to pick it up a lot faster
in the classroom because we know those kinds of time constraints for an educator arereally, can be a big roadblock.
So we're looking at those kinds of ideas.

(21:20):
um We also think a lot about the debrief in our projects.
We think that is really kind of one of the most important pieces is
is taking that experience and then mapping uh questions to help teachers uh kind of breakit down for kids so that they can better understand kind of what they were doing, why they

(21:44):
were doing it, and then how that might apply in a future circumstance.
Sounds brilliant.
love it.
Debriefing.
I always say it when somebody mentions it for me, debriefing, especially in when it comesto learning and games, game fight systems, et cetera, is key.
Like otherwise, maybe you even learn something in it, but if you don't realize you did,it's not going to cement well.

(22:06):
Exactly.
That's what we think is probably one of the most important parts and like one of thethings that we are really, really intentional about doing.
ah just trying to turn something into like, yeah, that was really fun to like, this reallymatters to me and to what we're trying to do.
that has become just kind of a driving focus in our design process.

(22:28):
Cool.
Love it.
Carrie, is there a best practice, something that you say, well, when you're doing aproject, do this thing and it's probably going to make it at least better.
uh Well, debrief was one of things.
say it could be one of the things we discussed already, that's okay.
Yeah, but also I would say testing is really important, especially in an educationalsetting where it's like these are the things that are going into the hands of educators

(22:58):
and students and we don't have a whole lot of control over what's going to happen.
Kind of as we talked about earlier, it's uh having those opportunities to test it indifferent ways and with different populations or different kind of circumstances to find
all those little kind of places where things might go wrong and

(23:18):
Obviously we can't sell all of them, you know, enough that we can confidently say thiswill work in your classroom if you give it a try.
Makes sense testing.
Love it.
Carrie, you've heard, you probably heard a bit of, of, uh of, um, of Pete before, um, onan interview in the podcast.

(23:41):
I don't know if you've heard any other episodes, but now you have a feel of what theinterviews tend to look like.
Is there anybody that comes to your mind and you say, well, I, think I'd be curious tolisten to this person or this person would be really interesting for, for even for you.
Like I would like to hear this person's perspective.
Yeah, the person who kind of comes to mind for me is um Dr.

(24:05):
Susan River.
She's with iThrive Games and um the History Ecolab.
uh And so her work kind of sits at this intersection of like game design and adolescentdevelopment and like social emotional learning, um which is like where a lot of like civic
learning happens.
And they're creating some really cool games.

(24:26):
um
that help teens explore things like identity and empathy and civic agency and things likethat.
And I think she'd bring a really unique experience.
She's both a psychologist and a game-based learning advocate.
um And so they've been creating some really cool classroom tools, both digitally and inperson, that help students think through these kinds of civic scenarios.

(24:52):
Lovett, can you repeat her name, please?
Yeah, Dr.
Susan Rivers with I Thrive Games and the History CoLab.
Love it.
How about a book that you would recommend the Engagers?
Which book would it be and why?
Yeah, the book that we go back to right now as we're designing games and elementary uhmaterials is The Power of Play by David Elkind.

(25:21):
And also if you have young kids, probably a great book to read because it's really justabout how we learn through playing.
And so maybe not necessarily about game, but this idea like that play gives us the is
uh kind of safe spaces and low risk environments to kind of test out real life skills andthings along those lines, which has been a big influence for us as we design, because

(25:47):
that's really kind of where we've been thinking like, these are the ways to practice civicskills in a safe environment for students and test those things out in low stakes kind of
way.
um And I think, you know, it just reinforces the idea that, you know,
Play is important, not just as a child, all the way through adulthood.

(26:10):
Super, super important, the power of play.
just with the title, you already know that something strong is definitely coming in.
Carrie, in this world of game design and helping kids, like all the stuff that you do,there something that you would call or what is it that we could call your superpower?

(26:30):
That thing that you do at least better than most other people.
My superpower has always been since the time I was a classroom teacher, has been turninglike complex and boring content into experiences kids actually want to participate in.
uh You know, I took a lot of pride of that as an educator and now even now today.

(26:51):
Just I think whether it's gameplay or storytelling or just other kind of projects andthings that make things active and surprising and social is what I do best.
Um, and I'm always kind of thinking like, how do we move passive learning, um, tosomething that students can feel and test and, um, and remember.

(27:14):
And that's what's most important to me.
Uh, and cause when they're problem solving or role playing and laughing or disagreeing,they're more engaged and that's where real learning happens.
And that's my favorite thing to do is build out those moments.
That's beautiful.
How about your favorite game?
And it could be one of your games or it could be a commercial game.

(27:34):
Like it could be something else just to get your mind out of those because I know pickinga favorite child is particularly challenging.
Let's call it that way.
Yeah, I have two favorite games and they're like more party games, I guess, because I usedto do a game night with some friends before um we moved.
And my two favorites are um Space Team and Cranium.

(28:00):
And so I really enjoy those kind of very social games.
um I enjoy Chaos as well, which is what Space Team kind of brings to the
the plate is that kind of like everybody's trying to accomplish something.
Things are going a little wild.
You've got people yelling random, like sci-fi commands out that you like don't understand.
You're trying to figure things out in like a very short amount of time.

(28:23):
But it's also like great team building kind of stuff.
We've used it in office for some team building activities.
And then cranium is just.
I love the strategy behind Cranium, which people are like, there's no strategy.
I'm like, but you've got to pick a team.
And like, you have to think about all the different modes of like what you're doing underCranium and like, who's going to be the best people to help you win all those different

(28:49):
kinds of challenges.
uh And so like, to me, it's kind of a little bit more, yeah, the challenges are fun, butit's like, okay, did I get the right people to go on this like little journey with?
Love it.
That sounds absolutely brilliant.
Carrie, we're getting to the end of the interview, but before letting you go, is thereanything else you want to say?
Any final words, any final piece of advice?

(29:11):
Of course, also let us know where we can find out more about what you guys are doing.
Yeah.
It's all yours.
Yeah, I would say probably like my little advice for people um if especially educators outthere and um I recently did a session ISTE on this was like start small.

(29:33):
You know, if you're interested in using games in the classroom, it doesn't have to be awhole game.
I think a lot of times educators feel like they're like if they're not doing
the whole game, they didn't really try it.
And it's like, well, the point is to kind of, you know, bring in some of the aspects ofit.
You don't have to go full force into it.

(29:55):
So start small, pick one mechanic.
Maybe that's role play or negotiation, and then build a short activity around it.
Right?
You don't need a full blown game to begin bringing play into learning.
It can be as simple as signing those roles or giving them a secret objective to discuss.
to use during their discussion.
And then, and the key is really to think about like what habits we want to build,particularly if we're thinking in that civic space um and build around that.

(30:24):
So that's my kind of advice for people.
um And then, yeah, you can find um the games that I referenced in terms of the ones thatwe built.
Those are all online on our website, which is thebillofrightsinstitute.org.
All of our materials are free for educators.
Those games are available as both a free print and play download.

(30:47):
And if you're interested in purchasing them, we do have a store where you can get the nicepretty box of cards as well.
And then you can find us also on Instagram under Bill of Rights Institute, Facebook underBill of Rights Institute, and on X as B-R-Institute.
And then you can find me personally on LinkedIn.

(31:09):
Unfortunately, I'm not much of a social media person otherwise.
Sounds great though, sounds like great places to find out about what you guys are doing.
And Kerry, once again, thank you for, I know it's early for you today.
You're starting off your day.
We're ending our day here in Madrid.
However, thank you very much for taking this time for sharing your knowledge, yourunderstanding, your experiences.

(31:32):
However, at least for now and for today, it is time to say that it's game over.
Hey Engagers and thank you for listening to the Professor Game.
I guess and since you're interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement,loyalty, using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community

(31:53):
at Professor Game on School.
You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to clickthere.
Join us.
It's a platform called School is for Free and you will find plenty of resources there willbe up to date with everything that we're doing, any opportunities that we might have for
you.
And of course, before you go on to your next mission, before you click continue, pleaseremember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of

(32:18):
Professor Game.
See you there.

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Civic Engagement Through Classroom Games with Kerry Flanagan-Owen | Episode 407

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Civic Engagement Through Classroom Games with Kerry Flanagan-Owen | Episode 407