June 2, 2025 • 30 mins
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What happens when role-playing games become a leadership development tool?
In this episode we interview Joe, founder of GameNamic Leadership, to explore how tabletop RPGs can unlock transformational learning, reshape team dynamics, and deliver lasting cultural change. From piloting immersive retreats to coaching teams in real time, Joe shares how combining leadership coaching with roleplay doesn't just gamify learning—it changes how people show up at work.
Dr. Joe Lasley is an Assistant Professor of Leadership and Organizational Studies at the University of Southern Maine and the Founder of Gamenamic Leadership, where he merges academic rigor with the imaginative power of tabletop role-playing games to transform how individuals and teams learn to lead in the real world. He is an International Coaching Federation certified Leadership Coach, has a Ph.D. in Leadership Studies, and degrees in Organizational Psychology, Higher Education Administration, and Organizational Communication.
In academia, Joe designs and teaches courses on leadership development, systems thinking, organizational and group dynamics, with a focus on experiential and transformational learning. He has published peer-reviewed aresearch on leadership development through role-playing games, led action research projects, and regularly presents at national and international conferences including International Leadership Association, National Communication Association, and North American Simulation And Gaming Association.
As a consultant, Dr. Joe created LeadRPG, an innovative method that blends leadership development with tabletop role-playing games to build emotionally intelligent, adaptive leaders and creative teams. With the LeadRPG Team, he has developed immersive retreats, facilitated custom programs for mission-driven organizations and tech leaders, and produced game-based toolkits used for leadership coaching, team development, and reflective practice.
With expertise spanning group dynamics, adaptive leadership, and game-based learning, Dr. Joe is committed to helping people unlock their potential, co-design shared experiences, and navigate complexity with creativity, purpose, and play.
Rob is a host and consultant at Professor Game as well as an expert, international speaker and advocate for the use of gamification and games-based solutions, especially in education and learning. He's also a professor and workshop facilitator for the topics of the podcast and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY (LSP) for top higher education institutions that include EFMD, IE Business School and EBS among others in Europe, America and Asia.
Guest Links and Info
- Website: gamenamic.org
- Retreats: gamenamic.org/retreat
- LinkedIn: Joe Lasley
- LinkedIn: GameNamic Leadership
Links to episode mentions:
- Proposed guest: Gijs
- Recommended book: Playing and Reality by D.W. Winnicott
- Favorite game: Age of Wonders 4
Lets's do stuff together!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
to hear six months later, a year later, that their leadership team is still functioningdifferently because of the work that we did.
That's the holy grail, I think.
Yes, so Joe is kind of sharing the holy grail of leadership development on this episodeand it is going to be amazing.
And if you're very interested in seeing what gamification can do for you in terms ofretention of
(00:26):
crushing
churn, please make sure you go and get our free resource using gamification for that canbe a game changer as well.
So make sure you go to the link, click on that or DM and go for that resource, which I amsure will be very useful for you.
And Engagers, welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game Podcast.
(00:48):
We are with a very special guest.
As always, we have fantastic guests.
Today we have Joe, but Joe, before we introduce you, we need to know.
Are you prepared to engage?
I was born ready.
Let's do this.
Dr.
Joe Lasley is an assistant professor of leadership and organizational studies at theUniversity of Southern Maine and the founder of GameNamic Leadership.
(01:12):
Did I get that one right?
Where he merges academic rigor, of course, as a very good researcher with the imaginativepower of tabletop role-playing games to transform individuals and teams.
How individuals and teams learn to lead in the real world.
He's in international coaching.
Federation Certified Leadership Coach as a PhD in Leadership Studies and degrees inOrganizational Psychology, Higher Education Administration and Organizational
(01:39):
Communication.
He teaches leadership development, systems thinking, organizational and group dynamics.
And of course he focuses on experiential and transformational learning.
He's published a bunch of research peer reviewed on leadership development throughrole-playing games, action research projects, regularly presents at national and
international conferences, including International Leadership.
(02:00):
Association, National Communication Association, and North American Simulation and GamingAssociation.
Engagers, you can see why he is on the podcast.
But Joe, is there anything that we're missing from that intro?
Well, that's a pretty good list of some of the major things that I'm affiliated with andthat type of thing.
would say uh currently, I think I'm in the warlock phase of my career where I am trying tochannel greater power through uh relationships with the beyond.
(02:37):
I'll say that.
And trying to bring the magic uh out into the real world.
So.
It sounds brilliant.
So Dr.
Joe, there are many different aspects that you are handling and juggling right now.
If we were to follow you around for, I don't know, a day a week, whatever would describeyour life a little bit better, how would that look like?
(02:59):
What are the kinds of things you're doing?
How would that feel like?
Well, there's not really a typical kind of day.
There's lots of different kinds of days and things that I do.
uh I live in Maine in the United States with my uh dog buddy.
And so when it's nice out, I might be on the deck in the yard reading or journaling ormeditating, those types of things, uh or hiking.
(03:20):
I also might be playing games.
You know, that's me uh as a person.
And then in my role as an assistant professor, I might be prepping the course, teaching,reading students work.
uh or working on some research collaborations, I like to do a lot of collaborative work.
So it involves a lot of reaching out to people, having meetings, coming up with ideas,co-creating art, whether it's research or other initiatives together, those types of
(03:47):
things.
uh And I teach at all three levels, undergrad, master's and doctoral students.
So sometimes I'm talking with students about work theory and it's their first time.
And other times I'm working with people who are forging ahead to create new knowledge and
uh coming up with new ideas and ways of seeing the world of leadership or those types ofthings.
(04:08):
uh And then in my role as a coach or actually sometimes in my role as a professor, I mightbe doing coaching sessions with students.
Leadership coaching and action learning and transformational learning and experientiallearning are pretty common uh staples in my teaching, but they're also things that I do as
a consultant.
(04:28):
uh I might be
traveling to facilitate for a group uh or doing a workshop that's a part of a series andongoing for an organization.
We're going to a professional association conference to either present research orfacilitate workshops to help people develop.
So all kinds of different things and different days take on different flavors.
(04:52):
Lots of stuff going on that is for sure.
And let's actually shift gears for a second here.
You know, we'd like to talk about fail or first attempts in learning.
And especially because that those are the places where we learn the most because it's theway in which games we learn so much.
So let's talk about one of those times.
(05:14):
One of those, I don't know if spectacular or not, but one of those when you would maybecall it your favorite failure, one of those times where something really went wrong and
you learned
very interesting things for your future endeavors.
Yeah, I like the way the acronym first attempt in learning because I wouldn't considerthis a failure.
I would actually consider it success as a gamer and as a person who uses role playinggames and the experience of role playing games as a lens through which to view what is
(05:44):
leadership.
I fully embraced that perspective.
So I like that because I never would have considered this a failure.
A couple of years ago, I did uh
a pilot program, which was a leadership coaching group using a role playing game.
And it was actually more a role playing game trying to see how leadership coaching couldemerge while I was facilitating the role playing game.
(06:11):
We would set some intentions with the group, but I wanted to try it out.
I'd already done a bunch of research and was continuing to do research and developdifferent ways to use the role playing game experience as a leadership development
activity in and of itself.
which is little bit different than just, there's some learning outcomes mixed in orgamification kinds of things.
This was more, how can I make these experiences simultaneously kind of emerge here or tryto foster that?
(06:39):
And it was a huge success in the sense that I discovered, we discovered this really doeswork.
It's very deep psychological, like elements that are emerging when people are playing andwe're getting into some areas that are
huge blocks or areas of potential for people and uh having deep insights, which issometimes very uncomfortable, that kind of disequilibrium that is a precursor to
(07:06):
transformational learning of realizing a blind spot or something like that.
And for most of the participants, that was uh very generative for them.
For one of the participants, it was
an area of shadow that they had not been prepared to confront.
(07:27):
And so it was a very intense and overwhelming experience in that aspect of the experience.
So I learned, uh hey, I was right.
We can access some really foundational and transformational uh elements of group dynamicsand personal psychology.
And in my role as a facilitator, because I was both the game master and the group
(07:53):
I have lots of training and experience as a group relations and leadership coach.
I also have a lot of experience and uh research and training as a game master.
And so I thought I will be both of those roles in one.
And man, even for me, that was uh quite overwhelming amount of facilitation and things topay attention to and...
(08:19):
psychological safety to create and all of those types of things.
And so it was great in the sense that that was the foundation of, there was proof ofconcept.
Like it really does work.
Magic is real, you know, but also the responsibility and the psychological load on thefacilitator of being in two roles at the same time was quite a lot.
(08:44):
So it gave me respect for the process.
I've heard this whole thing of taking on roles that you usually see them separate andthere being reasons for them to be two separate people and people saying, know, I'm very
good at these two.
I'm done with myself.
Don't get me wrong.
um And then actually going into it, know, full confidence, very prepared and so on andforth.
(09:09):
And then it's like, well.
Maybe there was a reason for there to be two people, even though the two people are doingthe exact same thing, but they're being actual two separate human beings doing that.
Is that one of the lessons that you took away or did you manage to streamline this and tomake it into a single role?
The simple way to say the takeaway is, this dual role is a lot more than, and I hadanticipated it being a big thing to pay attention to, but I was given an even double down,
(09:41):
more expensive uh experience at that.
But I think the more nuanced thing is learning, I got a lot of the context and thecomplexity of what it is like to be in that role and different situations with different
people and different types of.
leadership role-playing games, I call them the lead RPG, because it really is acombination of two things, or an integration.
(10:04):
It's not just adding one to the other.
It's its own thing when you combine them in a certain way.
And so now there are some engagements that I do where we will have two facilitators.
There will be a coach and a game master.
And so then the flow from session zero to pre-work
(10:26):
to game session, to debrief and coaching uh kind of works in tandem with those two roles.
And there are other times where I will uh be able to be intentional about how to play thedual role and how to set up the context for that to be successful, both for me as the
(10:47):
facilitator and for the participants with what we're trying to get out of it and how, youknow, things like the length of the engagement, the type of relationships and then
also the type of intentions for how people want to learn and grow.
If it's about understanding some way that strengths combine on a team, that's a little bituh easier to access from a dual role.
(11:08):
If it's more about trying to understand some unspoken dynamics that are beneath thesurface, that might be a harder ask for a game master to be able to do at the same time.
Interesting, interesting.
So it's not just one answer.
It's a set of things to learn.
Interesting, I like it.
respect it enough to be very intentional about when and how to do the dual role and not.
(11:33):
uh Which is part of the leadership lesson I think in role playing games is understandingroles and how we play different roles and there are multiple ways to play different roles
and having definitions about that.
Good stuff, good stuff, for sure.
And Joe, how about a success?
know, time when, you know, rather than calling out the failure that happened, thingsactually did go your way.
(11:56):
Again, the first, the end attempt, it doesn't matter.
We want to be there and see maybe some of those success factors, perhaps what took you tothose heights.
Well, we've had several retreats in the last year and we're having another one come up inAugust.
The deadline is June 10th for those who are uh listening to this during that time sphere.
(12:20):
uh
2025 by the way.
Yeah.
2025, yes.
There will be future programs, of course, but those aren't set yet.
And I would say that is a success that we bring together a core team to develop the methodfurther beyond just what I was piloting and prototyping several years ago to now this is a
(12:45):
collaborative effort.
And I've got some people with really, really amazing combinations of expertise that havebeen able to
It transformed from we are collaborators to we are a team creating this together.
We have a vision and a purpose to bring the power of role-playing games out into theworld.
(13:06):
And our retreats with ourselves as a team have been transformational for us, bothindividually and as a group.
And that's allowed us to really hone in on this method of how we can help people.
Whether it's individuals coming to a retreat or teams of senior leaders at a company thathire us for an engagement that we can uh really unlock something that's more than
(13:32):
gamification, that's personal realization and also like team culture and group cultures,those types of things.
So uh we saw it work with uh another client too, which was really fascinating because wethought we could do it.
but to actually change the culture in an organization over the long term, that's a big askfor any leadership consultant.
(13:57):
I think most of us will always promise that in our learning outcomes, Like, especially ifyou're doing stuff with play, like build healthy team cultures and psychological safety.
But we had a group last year that went through a three month program with us and weapplied all the things that we had been learning and developing together.
(14:17):
And to hear six months later,
a year later from the manager of that organization that their leadership team is stillfunctioning differently because of the work that we did and that it has the dynamics that
we cultivated together have now kind of uh carried on and become the dynamics of how theywork together.
(14:38):
Like that's the holy grail, I think.
To have that actually work and have them see it and come to me with it, not just me tellthem, I can see this happening.
That was the real success.
Big one for sure, good stuff.
And from your experience, Joe, you you've been doing this for a while.
You have a team, you have a method, et cetera.
(14:59):
If you were, know, somebody comes in with a problem that you can solve through what youdo.
What are the steps?
What's the method?
Of course, an overview.
I'm sure there's a lot of depth to this.
But if we were to have sort of the taglines of all these things, what would that process,that thing be?
Well, there's a couple different ones.
There are shorter series of workshops which are a little bit more uh familiar toexperiential learning and game-based learning folks where you focus on a particular
(15:28):
outcome or type of outcome and then design specifically for that and make it all veryexperiential, give people a concrete experience to go off of.
And so we have a way of developing our games and facilitation plans depending on thecontext for that.
For our larger programs, whether it's a three month program where we meet every week orevery other week with the team, or where we do a retreat, like a week and long retreat
(15:52):
like we're doing in uh coming here and that, it's interwoven with experiential learningand leadership coaching.
uh And then the gameplay process of pregame or session zero as a lot of people call it,actual game play and then
(16:12):
debriefing.
And so the leadership coaching process that goes along with that is also an actionlearning process where you do reflection and intention setting and formation as a group.
And so that's some of the session zero uh work that you would do or with a leadershipcoach where you might try to explore what are your aspirations and who you are now and how
you're trying to get there.
(16:33):
What is it that you want to explore is kind of the general question.
We do group coaching around that.
But that is accomplished partly through coaching conversations and partly through uhactual session zero material.
So we might talk about creating characters for a game or do some world building exercisestogether that both function to create game, get us ready for the game.
(16:57):
uh They create game material or characters or such, those types of things.
But we facilitate them in such a way that they also help us build bonds, create our group.
formation and psychological safety with us as a group and some group norms around play andimprov and consent and those types of things.
So we accomplished both of those things in that first kind of phase of activities.
(17:21):
And then the actual gameplay feels just like playing a role playing game, although we knowthere are multiple levels of the experience that are all happening at the same time.
And so we may be paying attention to the characters and the way they're showing up andhelping each other play our characters.
and our roles in a way that suits our learning goals and intentions for leadershipdevelopment.
(17:41):
uh Although it really looks and feels the same as playing any other RPG.
And then the debrief where we have a structure for reflecting on that.
So that's kind of the process in a nutshell.
Sounds brilliant.
Thank you for giving us a sneak peek into your mind.
(18:03):
And from that process in your experience, there some sort of best practice?
Not a silver bullet, of course, but something that works really, really well, or usuallyat least improves your outcomes.
Hmm.
I think some of the taglines out in the applied RPG world apply and maybe with a littlebit of nuance.
(18:29):
So Session Zero, everyone says, oh, you have to have Session Zero, which is thisconversation you have before the game about what kind of game you're going to be playing,
what kind of experience you want to have, there are any limits, things that you don't wantto have happen.
And there are a bunch of safety tools that can be talked about with that.
(18:49):
And those are all very useful and sometimes we will use those in different ways.
And I think using, think for, to add our best practice to that, because I'm a group coachand a group relations and group dynamics, you know, development facilitator, that what
we're also doing is we're creating norms for play and improv together that will serve us.
(19:15):
both in gameplay and in group coaching later on during a debrief.
So we're normalizing having conversations about consent, talking to each other about whatis an uncomfortable learning zone for me and what is too uncomfortable and not a learning
zone for me.
And it's not about knowing that before the game or knowing what's going to happen, butnormalizing how to talk about that and getting general ideas of how to support each other
(19:42):
in the moment.
And so that's...
part of what we do and it could it ranges all the way from I love horror so let's do ahorror themed game or I really like you know fantasy and dragons and those kinds of things
to you know deep personal things and I really want to work on this uh aspect of mydevelopment and so it's gonna be really uncomfortable for me this is all very new for me
(20:09):
but here's what support looks like from the group that you know so in the game
Other characters are invited to maybe present me with certain challenges or to not be ableto do that.
Or to say, pause, is this okay in game kind of thing?
I think that's a, realizing it's very easy for people to separate in game, out of game intheir minds, but that's actually not real.
(20:35):
We are, we are full people, even when we're playing roles.
And so there's this combination of separation because you get to be a different character.
and you're also having a real experience of a person playing that character, which is whywe have these emotional experiences playing games that we thought at the time were more
(20:55):
separate than they really are.
And so it's kind of a paradox in the work that we do.
And I would say being able to attend to all of those levels and to merge back and forthis, uh that's the secret.
Amazing, And after hearing these questions, you know, you were also recommended by a pastguest.
(21:18):
there somebody that you would recommend?
Somebody would say, well, I'd be really curious to hear this person what they would haveto say on an interview like this one, like on Professor Gay.
Yeah, well, I have a whole list of people that I collaborate with.
So of course I can't, can't name them all that I would name, but some of them have alreadybeen on the, on the podcast.
One that I will say for now is Heiss.
(21:41):
He is from Live Action Learning, operating in Europe.
And they do the LARP version of what I do basically is the simple way, probably theoversimplified way to talk about it.
He and I are collaborating on a workshop and a panel at the International LeadershipAssociation that will be in Prague in October.
(22:03):
that's our next collaboration, but he's doing the LARP version of LeadRPG over it.
He calls it live action learning.
That's his thing.
So he's very exciting and fun uh to work with and to play with.
Nice, very interesting, so heist.
Yes, yeah, the website is liveactionlearning.com and heis is G-I-J-S.
(22:35):
Gotcha, gotcha.
And how about a book?
Is there something maybe that guided you, inspired you, or that you read every now andthen?
I don't know, whatever you want to go for.
What would that book be and why?
would say of the many books, especially the Transformational Role-Playing books andRole-Play Studies books, is that one that has really captured, I think, a core essence in
(22:59):
my approach to this work is the book Playing and Reality by Donald Winnicott.
It's an oldie but a goodie.
uh And so he really captures some of the more complex concepts of thinking about play as adevelopmental phenomenon.
It's not just the fun and whimsy that we think about it maybe in pop culture, but uh hisideas about both human development and play are pretty foundational to the work that I do.
(23:29):
Amazing, good stuff.
And in this world of fusing games for leadership development or in general using games forpurposes beyond entertainment, what would you say is your superpower?
That thing that you do at least better than most others.
I don't know, I think you'd get a better answer asking other people, uh that's what mysuperpower was.
(23:51):
But I can share an anecdote, because recently we're doing a series of workshops for aprofessional organization.
uh some of my team members reflect, because of course, working with a team of leadershiprole playing game people, it's kind of part of our culture to...
(24:12):
always be debriefing what's going on and reflecting on our roles and those types ofthings.
It's kind of our hobby too, you know?
And so we were debriefing some of the, well, we debriefed every session that we did, ofcourse, as a team and they were uh reflecting.
We do, we debrief the debriefs.
It's, you know, it's all the time.
(24:34):
Yeah, it's so fun.
uh And so.
This is actually, that's what was happening.
They were reflecting how I facilitated one of the debriefs at the workshop.
there was a, you know, their note to me was uh appreciation for how I was tying in areally complex concept and showing what people were saying about their experience and kind
(25:04):
of helping put all the pieces together for them to
have a really important realization.
And so I forget exactly how they described it, but the way of weaving what I was seeingand what they were reporting in their experience to help them make an insight.
So I they said, I got up in front of room and all of a sudden I went into facilitatorprofessor mode and just had the succinct question to ask or something like that.
(25:36):
Which doesn't, it is not always that smooth, I will say, but that is the thing thatamongst the, I was shocked by that comment and it may actually warms my heart to hear that
from them because this is the group of people that are my team that I facilitate with thatalso ask me questions that make me think and rethink my perspectives.
(25:57):
And so to have them reflect that to me was really, really sweet.
Sounds great.
Sounds great.
And they're the best place to get that kind of feedback.
It's not my cousin told me.
The actual people you want to get that feedback.
Yeah, the people that I respect for their ability to do debriefing, you know?
And beyond, of course, your own leadership role-playing games, what would you say, Joe, isyour favorite?
(26:24):
Well, I think you know in asking that question on this podcast uh that it's a little bitof a red herring.
That it's right now my favorite game is or my favorite game of different genres are.
So I'll say I have lately been playing a ton of Age of Wonders 4, which is a video game.
It's a 4x fantasy game.
(26:45):
And uh I have been really enjoying that.
4x and fantasy games are both like a genre that I always have enjoyed.
uh
And right now that one has been taking up a lot of my time to my delight.
uh So I'll also say recently I played a game uh called For the Queen.
(27:07):
And that is a card-based storytelling game for a group.
And it is so fun.
And of course, I think the group that I played with made a big difference there becausethey were awesome to play with.
uh
Groups always do make a big difference in our experience, especially playing games.
So there's that.
(27:28):
So those are two.
How's that?
Joe, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast.
I don't know if there's anything else you want to talk about.
Is there any final piece of advice, call to action?
I don't know, whatever you want to go for.
Of course, do let us know where we can find out more about you, about the work that youdo.
um Off the retreat for sure, and especially where they see it a few days right after or ayear after, where they can find out more about your ongoing work in that sense.
(27:54):
Yeah, hopefully we'll have many more programs to come.
So finding us on our website, gamenamic.org is the main website.
ah When we have a retreat running, it's gamenamic.org slash retreat.
But more specifically, there's always gamenamic.org slash lead RPG.
All our tabs on the site, if you just go to gamenamic.org, you'll find your way around.
(28:15):
You'll be able to join an email list there at the bottom of the main page.
uh And you can...
Also find ways to get in contact with me.
My email there is drjoe at game namek.org.
There you can schedule a 30 minute console intro consultation through the website.
uh I have a LinkedIn profile, Dr.
Joe Lassley and game namek leadership has a LinkedIn profile as well.
(28:40):
And so there's a great ways to stay in touch with what we're doing uh and either sign upfor the current or next best retreat or get in contact about
uh creating an event or opportunity for us to engage together.
Absolutely, absolutely.
I'm sure anybody in that space would be super interested in the stuff that you guys aredoing and that seems super super interesting and very impactful as well But Joe even the
(29:09):
best things come to an end so Engagers and Joe at least for now and for today.
It is time to say that it's game over Hey, Engagers, and thank you for listening to theprofessor game
I guess and since you're interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement,loyalty, using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community
(29:34):
at Professor Game on School.
You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to clickthere.
Join us.
It's a platform called School.
It's for free.
and you will find plenty of resources there.
We'll be up to date with everything that we're doing, any opportunities that we might havefor you.
And of course, before you go on to your next mission, before you click continue, pleaseremember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of
(29:59):
Professor Game.
See you there.
to hear six months later, a year later, that their leadership team is still functioningdifferently because of the work that we did.
That's the holy grail, I think.
Yes, so Joe is kind of sharing the holy grail of leadership development on this episodeand it is going to be amazing.
And if you're very interested in seeing what gamification can do for you in terms ofretention of
(00:26):
crushing
churn, please make sure you go and get our free resource using gamification for that canbe a game changer as well.
So make sure you go to the link, click on that or DM and go for that resource, which I amsure will be very useful for you.
And Engagers, welcome back to another episode of the Professor Game Podcast.
(00:48):
We are with a very special guest.
As always, we have fantastic guests.
Today we have Joe, but Joe, before we introduce you, we need to know.
Are you prepared to engage?
I was born ready.
Let's do this.
Dr.
Joe Lasley is an assistant professor of leadership and organizational studies at theUniversity of Southern Maine and the founder of GameNamic Leadership.
(01:12):
Did I get that one right?
Where he merges academic rigor, of course, as a very good researcher with the imaginativepower of tabletop role-playing games to transform individuals and teams.
How individuals and teams learn to lead in the real world.
He's in international coaching.
Federation Certified Leadership Coach as a PhD in Leadership Studies and degrees inOrganizational Psychology, Higher Education Administration and Organizational
(01:39):
Communication.
He teaches leadership development, systems thinking, organizational and group dynamics.
And of course he focuses on experiential and transformational learning.
He's published a bunch of research peer reviewed on leadership development throughrole-playing games, action research projects, regularly presents at national and
international conferences, including International Leadership.
(02:00):
Association, National Communication Association, and North American Simulation and GamingAssociation.
Engagers, you can see why he is on the podcast.
But Joe, is there anything that we're missing from that intro?
Well, that's a pretty good list of some of the major things that I'm affiliated with andthat type of thing.
would say uh currently, I think I'm in the warlock phase of my career where I am trying tochannel greater power through uh relationships with the beyond.
(02:37):
I'll say that.
And trying to bring the magic uh out into the real world.
So.
It sounds brilliant.
So Dr.
Joe, there are many different aspects that you are handling and juggling right now.
If we were to follow you around for, I don't know, a day a week, whatever would describeyour life a little bit better, how would that look like?
(02:59):
What are the kinds of things you're doing?
How would that feel like?
Well, there's not really a typical kind of day.
There's lots of different kinds of days and things that I do.
uh I live in Maine in the United States with my uh dog buddy.
And so when it's nice out, I might be on the deck in the yard reading or journaling ormeditating, those types of things, uh or hiking.
(03:20):
I also might be playing games.
You know, that's me uh as a person.
And then in my role as an assistant professor, I might be prepping the course, teaching,reading students work.
uh or working on some research collaborations, I like to do a lot of collaborative work.
So it involves a lot of reaching out to people, having meetings, coming up with ideas,co-creating art, whether it's research or other initiatives together, those types of
(03:47):
things.
uh And I teach at all three levels, undergrad, master's and doctoral students.
So sometimes I'm talking with students about work theory and it's their first time.
And other times I'm working with people who are forging ahead to create new knowledge and
uh coming up with new ideas and ways of seeing the world of leadership or those types ofthings.
(04:08):
uh And then in my role as a coach or actually sometimes in my role as a professor, I mightbe doing coaching sessions with students.
Leadership coaching and action learning and transformational learning and experientiallearning are pretty common uh staples in my teaching, but they're also things that I do as
a consultant.
(04:28):
uh I might be
traveling to facilitate for a group uh or doing a workshop that's a part of a series andongoing for an organization.
We're going to a professional association conference to either present research orfacilitate workshops to help people develop.
So all kinds of different things and different days take on different flavors.
(04:52):
Lots of stuff going on that is for sure.
And let's actually shift gears for a second here.
You know, we'd like to talk about fail or first attempts in learning.
And especially because that those are the places where we learn the most because it's theway in which games we learn so much.
So let's talk about one of those times.
(05:14):
One of those, I don't know if spectacular or not, but one of those when you would maybecall it your favorite failure, one of those times where something really went wrong and
you learned
very interesting things for your future endeavors.
Yeah, I like the way the acronym first attempt in learning because I wouldn't considerthis a failure.
I would actually consider it success as a gamer and as a person who uses role playinggames and the experience of role playing games as a lens through which to view what is
(05:44):
leadership.
I fully embraced that perspective.
So I like that because I never would have considered this a failure.
A couple of years ago, I did uh
a pilot program, which was a leadership coaching group using a role playing game.
And it was actually more a role playing game trying to see how leadership coaching couldemerge while I was facilitating the role playing game.
(06:11):
We would set some intentions with the group, but I wanted to try it out.
I'd already done a bunch of research and was continuing to do research and developdifferent ways to use the role playing game experience as a leadership development
activity in and of itself.
which is little bit different than just, there's some learning outcomes mixed in orgamification kinds of things.
This was more, how can I make these experiences simultaneously kind of emerge here or tryto foster that?
(06:39):
And it was a huge success in the sense that I discovered, we discovered this really doeswork.
It's very deep psychological, like elements that are emerging when people are playing andwe're getting into some areas that are
huge blocks or areas of potential for people and uh having deep insights, which issometimes very uncomfortable, that kind of disequilibrium that is a precursor to
(07:06):
transformational learning of realizing a blind spot or something like that.
And for most of the participants, that was uh very generative for them.
For one of the participants, it was
an area of shadow that they had not been prepared to confront.
(07:27):
And so it was a very intense and overwhelming experience in that aspect of the experience.
So I learned, uh hey, I was right.
We can access some really foundational and transformational uh elements of group dynamicsand personal psychology.
And in my role as a facilitator, because I was both the game master and the group
(07:53):
I have lots of training and experience as a group relations and leadership coach.
I also have a lot of experience and uh research and training as a game master.
And so I thought I will be both of those roles in one.
And man, even for me, that was uh quite overwhelming amount of facilitation and things topay attention to and...
(08:19):
psychological safety to create and all of those types of things.
And so it was great in the sense that that was the foundation of, there was proof ofconcept.
Like it really does work.
Magic is real, you know, but also the responsibility and the psychological load on thefacilitator of being in two roles at the same time was quite a lot.
(08:44):
So it gave me respect for the process.
I've heard this whole thing of taking on roles that you usually see them separate andthere being reasons for them to be two separate people and people saying, know, I'm very
good at these two.
I'm done with myself.
Don't get me wrong.
um And then actually going into it, know, full confidence, very prepared and so on andforth.
(09:09):
And then it's like, well.
Maybe there was a reason for there to be two people, even though the two people are doingthe exact same thing, but they're being actual two separate human beings doing that.
Is that one of the lessons that you took away or did you manage to streamline this and tomake it into a single role?
The simple way to say the takeaway is, this dual role is a lot more than, and I hadanticipated it being a big thing to pay attention to, but I was given an even double down,
(09:41):
more expensive uh experience at that.
But I think the more nuanced thing is learning, I got a lot of the context and thecomplexity of what it is like to be in that role and different situations with different
people and different types of.
leadership role-playing games, I call them the lead RPG, because it really is acombination of two things, or an integration.
(10:04):
It's not just adding one to the other.
It's its own thing when you combine them in a certain way.
And so now there are some engagements that I do where we will have two facilitators.
There will be a coach and a game master.
And so then the flow from session zero to pre-work
(10:26):
to game session, to debrief and coaching uh kind of works in tandem with those two roles.
And there are other times where I will uh be able to be intentional about how to play thedual role and how to set up the context for that to be successful, both for me as the
(10:47):
facilitator and for the participants with what we're trying to get out of it and how, youknow, things like the length of the engagement, the type of relationships and then
also the type of intentions for how people want to learn and grow.
If it's about understanding some way that strengths combine on a team, that's a little bituh easier to access from a dual role.
(11:08):
If it's more about trying to understand some unspoken dynamics that are beneath thesurface, that might be a harder ask for a game master to be able to do at the same time.
Interesting, interesting.
So it's not just one answer.
It's a set of things to learn.
Interesting, I like it.
respect it enough to be very intentional about when and how to do the dual role and not.
(11:33):
uh Which is part of the leadership lesson I think in role playing games is understandingroles and how we play different roles and there are multiple ways to play different roles
and having definitions about that.
Good stuff, good stuff, for sure.
And Joe, how about a success?
know, time when, you know, rather than calling out the failure that happened, thingsactually did go your way.
(11:56):
Again, the first, the end attempt, it doesn't matter.
We want to be there and see maybe some of those success factors, perhaps what took you tothose heights.
Well, we've had several retreats in the last year and we're having another one come up inAugust.
The deadline is June 10th for those who are uh listening to this during that time sphere.
(12:20):
uh
2025 by the way.
Yeah.
2025, yes.
There will be future programs, of course, but those aren't set yet.
And I would say that is a success that we bring together a core team to develop the methodfurther beyond just what I was piloting and prototyping several years ago to now this is a
(12:45):
collaborative effort.
And I've got some people with really, really amazing combinations of expertise that havebeen able to
It transformed from we are collaborators to we are a team creating this together.
We have a vision and a purpose to bring the power of role-playing games out into theworld.
(13:06):
And our retreats with ourselves as a team have been transformational for us, bothindividually and as a group.
And that's allowed us to really hone in on this method of how we can help people.
Whether it's individuals coming to a retreat or teams of senior leaders at a company thathire us for an engagement that we can uh really unlock something that's more than
(13:32):
gamification, that's personal realization and also like team culture and group cultures,those types of things.
So uh we saw it work with uh another client too, which was really fascinating because wethought we could do it.
but to actually change the culture in an organization over the long term, that's a big askfor any leadership consultant.
(13:57):
I think most of us will always promise that in our learning outcomes, Like, especially ifyou're doing stuff with play, like build healthy team cultures and psychological safety.
But we had a group last year that went through a three month program with us and weapplied all the things that we had been learning and developing together.
(14:17):
And to hear six months later,
a year later from the manager of that organization that their leadership team is stillfunctioning differently because of the work that we did and that it has the dynamics that
we cultivated together have now kind of uh carried on and become the dynamics of how theywork together.
(14:38):
Like that's the holy grail, I think.
To have that actually work and have them see it and come to me with it, not just me tellthem, I can see this happening.
That was the real success.
Big one for sure, good stuff.
And from your experience, Joe, you you've been doing this for a while.
You have a team, you have a method, et cetera.
(14:59):
If you were, know, somebody comes in with a problem that you can solve through what youdo.
What are the steps?
What's the method?
Of course, an overview.
I'm sure there's a lot of depth to this.
But if we were to have sort of the taglines of all these things, what would that process,that thing be?
Well, there's a couple different ones.
There are shorter series of workshops which are a little bit more uh familiar toexperiential learning and game-based learning folks where you focus on a particular
(15:28):
outcome or type of outcome and then design specifically for that and make it all veryexperiential, give people a concrete experience to go off of.
And so we have a way of developing our games and facilitation plans depending on thecontext for that.
For our larger programs, whether it's a three month program where we meet every week orevery other week with the team, or where we do a retreat, like a week and long retreat
(15:52):
like we're doing in uh coming here and that, it's interwoven with experiential learningand leadership coaching.
uh And then the gameplay process of pregame or session zero as a lot of people call it,actual game play and then
(16:12):
debriefing.
And so the leadership coaching process that goes along with that is also an actionlearning process where you do reflection and intention setting and formation as a group.
And so that's some of the session zero uh work that you would do or with a leadershipcoach where you might try to explore what are your aspirations and who you are now and how
you're trying to get there.
(16:33):
What is it that you want to explore is kind of the general question.
We do group coaching around that.
But that is accomplished partly through coaching conversations and partly through uhactual session zero material.
So we might talk about creating characters for a game or do some world building exercisestogether that both function to create game, get us ready for the game.
(16:57):
uh They create game material or characters or such, those types of things.
But we facilitate them in such a way that they also help us build bonds, create our group.
formation and psychological safety with us as a group and some group norms around play andimprov and consent and those types of things.
So we accomplished both of those things in that first kind of phase of activities.
(17:21):
And then the actual gameplay feels just like playing a role playing game, although we knowthere are multiple levels of the experience that are all happening at the same time.
And so we may be paying attention to the characters and the way they're showing up andhelping each other play our characters.
and our roles in a way that suits our learning goals and intentions for leadershipdevelopment.
(17:41):
uh Although it really looks and feels the same as playing any other RPG.
And then the debrief where we have a structure for reflecting on that.
So that's kind of the process in a nutshell.
Sounds brilliant.
Thank you for giving us a sneak peek into your mind.
(18:03):
And from that process in your experience, there some sort of best practice?
Not a silver bullet, of course, but something that works really, really well, or usuallyat least improves your outcomes.
Hmm.
I think some of the taglines out in the applied RPG world apply and maybe with a littlebit of nuance.
(18:29):
So Session Zero, everyone says, oh, you have to have Session Zero, which is thisconversation you have before the game about what kind of game you're going to be playing,
what kind of experience you want to have, there are any limits, things that you don't wantto have happen.
And there are a bunch of safety tools that can be talked about with that.
(18:49):
And those are all very useful and sometimes we will use those in different ways.
And I think using, think for, to add our best practice to that, because I'm a group coachand a group relations and group dynamics, you know, development facilitator, that what
we're also doing is we're creating norms for play and improv together that will serve us.
(19:15):
both in gameplay and in group coaching later on during a debrief.
So we're normalizing having conversations about consent, talking to each other about whatis an uncomfortable learning zone for me and what is too uncomfortable and not a learning
zone for me.
And it's not about knowing that before the game or knowing what's going to happen, butnormalizing how to talk about that and getting general ideas of how to support each other
(19:42):
in the moment.
And so that's...
part of what we do and it could it ranges all the way from I love horror so let's do ahorror themed game or I really like you know fantasy and dragons and those kinds of things
to you know deep personal things and I really want to work on this uh aspect of mydevelopment and so it's gonna be really uncomfortable for me this is all very new for me
(20:09):
but here's what support looks like from the group that you know so in the game
Other characters are invited to maybe present me with certain challenges or to not be ableto do that.
Or to say, pause, is this okay in game kind of thing?
I think that's a, realizing it's very easy for people to separate in game, out of game intheir minds, but that's actually not real.
(20:35):
We are, we are full people, even when we're playing roles.
And so there's this combination of separation because you get to be a different character.
and you're also having a real experience of a person playing that character, which is whywe have these emotional experiences playing games that we thought at the time were more
(20:55):
separate than they really are.
And so it's kind of a paradox in the work that we do.
And I would say being able to attend to all of those levels and to merge back and forthis, uh that's the secret.
Amazing, And after hearing these questions, you know, you were also recommended by a pastguest.
(21:18):
there somebody that you would recommend?
Somebody would say, well, I'd be really curious to hear this person what they would haveto say on an interview like this one, like on Professor Gay.
Yeah, well, I have a whole list of people that I collaborate with.
So of course I can't, can't name them all that I would name, but some of them have alreadybeen on the, on the podcast.
One that I will say for now is Heiss.
(21:41):
He is from Live Action Learning, operating in Europe.
And they do the LARP version of what I do basically is the simple way, probably theoversimplified way to talk about it.
He and I are collaborating on a workshop and a panel at the International LeadershipAssociation that will be in Prague in October.
(22:03):
that's our next collaboration, but he's doing the LARP version of LeadRPG over it.
He calls it live action learning.
That's his thing.
So he's very exciting and fun uh to work with and to play with.
Nice, very interesting, so heist.
Yes, yeah, the website is liveactionlearning.com and heis is G-I-J-S.
(22:35):
Gotcha, gotcha.
And how about a book?
Is there something maybe that guided you, inspired you, or that you read every now andthen?
I don't know, whatever you want to go for.
What would that book be and why?
would say of the many books, especially the Transformational Role-Playing books andRole-Play Studies books, is that one that has really captured, I think, a core essence in
(22:59):
my approach to this work is the book Playing and Reality by Donald Winnicott.
It's an oldie but a goodie.
uh And so he really captures some of the more complex concepts of thinking about play as adevelopmental phenomenon.
It's not just the fun and whimsy that we think about it maybe in pop culture, but uh hisideas about both human development and play are pretty foundational to the work that I do.
(23:29):
Amazing, good stuff.
And in this world of fusing games for leadership development or in general using games forpurposes beyond entertainment, what would you say is your superpower?
That thing that you do at least better than most others.
I don't know, I think you'd get a better answer asking other people, uh that's what mysuperpower was.
(23:51):
But I can share an anecdote, because recently we're doing a series of workshops for aprofessional organization.
uh some of my team members reflect, because of course, working with a team of leadershiprole playing game people, it's kind of part of our culture to...
(24:12):
always be debriefing what's going on and reflecting on our roles and those types ofthings.
It's kind of our hobby too, you know?
And so we were debriefing some of the, well, we debriefed every session that we did, ofcourse, as a team and they were uh reflecting.
We do, we debrief the debriefs.
It's, you know, it's all the time.
(24:34):
Yeah, it's so fun.
uh And so.
This is actually, that's what was happening.
They were reflecting how I facilitated one of the debriefs at the workshop.
there was a, you know, their note to me was uh appreciation for how I was tying in areally complex concept and showing what people were saying about their experience and kind
(25:04):
of helping put all the pieces together for them to
have a really important realization.
And so I forget exactly how they described it, but the way of weaving what I was seeingand what they were reporting in their experience to help them make an insight.
So I they said, I got up in front of room and all of a sudden I went into facilitatorprofessor mode and just had the succinct question to ask or something like that.
(25:36):
Which doesn't, it is not always that smooth, I will say, but that is the thing thatamongst the, I was shocked by that comment and it may actually warms my heart to hear that
from them because this is the group of people that are my team that I facilitate with thatalso ask me questions that make me think and rethink my perspectives.
(25:57):
And so to have them reflect that to me was really, really sweet.
Sounds great.
Sounds great.
And they're the best place to get that kind of feedback.
It's not my cousin told me.
The actual people you want to get that feedback.
Yeah, the people that I respect for their ability to do debriefing, you know?
And beyond, of course, your own leadership role-playing games, what would you say, Joe, isyour favorite?
(26:24):
Well, I think you know in asking that question on this podcast uh that it's a little bitof a red herring.
That it's right now my favorite game is or my favorite game of different genres are.
So I'll say I have lately been playing a ton of Age of Wonders 4, which is a video game.
It's a 4x fantasy game.
(26:45):
And uh I have been really enjoying that.
4x and fantasy games are both like a genre that I always have enjoyed.
uh
And right now that one has been taking up a lot of my time to my delight.
uh So I'll also say recently I played a game uh called For the Queen.
(27:07):
And that is a card-based storytelling game for a group.
And it is so fun.
And of course, I think the group that I played with made a big difference there becausethey were awesome to play with.
uh
Groups always do make a big difference in our experience, especially playing games.
So there's that.
(27:28):
So those are two.
How's that?
Joe, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast.
I don't know if there's anything else you want to talk about.
Is there any final piece of advice, call to action?
I don't know, whatever you want to go for.
Of course, do let us know where we can find out more about you, about the work that youdo.
um Off the retreat for sure, and especially where they see it a few days right after or ayear after, where they can find out more about your ongoing work in that sense.
(27:54):
Yeah, hopefully we'll have many more programs to come.
So finding us on our website, gamenamic.org is the main website.
ah When we have a retreat running, it's gamenamic.org slash retreat.
But more specifically, there's always gamenamic.org slash lead RPG.
All our tabs on the site, if you just go to gamenamic.org, you'll find your way around.
(28:15):
You'll be able to join an email list there at the bottom of the main page.
uh And you can...
Also find ways to get in contact with me.
My email there is drjoe at game namek.org.
There you can schedule a 30 minute console intro consultation through the website.
uh I have a LinkedIn profile, Dr.
Joe Lassley and game namek leadership has a LinkedIn profile as well.
(28:40):
And so there's a great ways to stay in touch with what we're doing uh and either sign upfor the current or next best retreat or get in contact about
uh creating an event or opportunity for us to engage together.
Absolutely, absolutely.
I'm sure anybody in that space would be super interested in the stuff that you guys aredoing and that seems super super interesting and very impactful as well But Joe even the
(29:09):
best things come to an end so Engagers and Joe at least for now and for today.
It is time to say that it's game over Hey, Engagers, and thank you for listening to theprofessor game
I guess and since you're interested in this world of creating motivation, engagement,loyalty, using game inspired solutions, how about you join us on our free online community
(29:34):
at Professor Game on School.
You can find the link right below in the description, but the main thing is to clickthere.
Join us.
It's a platform called School.
It's for free.
and you will find plenty of resources there.
We'll be up to date with everything that we're doing, any opportunities that we might havefor you.
And of course, before you go on to your next mission, before you click continue, pleaseremember to subscribe using your favorite podcast app and listen to the next episode of
(29:59):
Professor Game.
See you there.
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