May 21, 2024 • 48 mins
In this episode of the Queer Divorce Club podcast, Tera is joined by Brenda Bridges, author of "Oh Shit! I'm getting divorced," and a seasoned divorce coach, financial advisor, and certified collaborative divorce mediator. Brenda sheds light on crucial aspects of divorce while debunking prevalent myths surrounding topics like child support, alimony, and the timing of filing. Gain valuable insights and practical advice on navigating divorce with emotional resilience and clarity. Listen now for expert guidance on managing emotions and approaching divorce with empowerment and confidence.
Brenda Bridges: https://bridgingdivorcesolutions.com/
Music in this episode is from Bungalow Heaven. You can find more music from Bungalow Heaven and singer/songwriter Gretchen DeVault at gretchendevault.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hi, Brenda.
Welcome to the Queer Divorce Club.
Hello, Tera.
How are you doing today?
Fabulous.
I appreciate you being here todaywith us and I'm hoping you can get us
started by just giving us a glimpseof the work you do with divorcees and
your own personal history with divorce.
Oh, that's, that's a lot.
I'll try to unravel it.
The work I do, I guess I would sumit up saying I help people get the
(00:29):
information that they need to maketheir best decisions for their
particular individual situation.
I find that often people are givenkind of cookie cutter answers, or
they are expected to fit into this.
Either soap opera version orneighbor's version, someone
(00:53):
else's version of what divorce is.
And I really believe stronglythat they need to be supported.
in their situation with their specificinformation in this place and time to
make their best decisions as opposed toturning over that power to somebody else.
And my divorce journey was,I had a long term marriage.
(01:16):
I had a great life.
The marriage wasn't so good becauseno good marriage ends in divorce.
And after 26 years, we went througha really expensive, unnecessarily
contentious, long divorce.
It was kind of.
The, the soap opera version, youknow, what people expect instead
(01:36):
of the expectation being, Oh, youcan be adults and work this out.
It turned into, you know, Oh no,you're supposed to fight for everything
you've got that kind of thing.
After coming through that, itreally did look at it and just
say, there's gotta be a better way.
And I don't want anyone else to gothrough that if they don't have to.
So I was at the time of financialadvisor and became a divorce financial
(02:00):
analyst, and then a divorce coach, andthen a mediator and a collaborative
divorce professional, which justmeans all those other trainings.
Plus the collaborative training allowedme to do work as a collaborative
professional, which is a differentprocess than a traditional divorce.
So that's kind of how I landed where I am.
You're hitting divorce from all angles.
(02:22):
I feel like that's awesome.
No, I'm actually not.
No?
Okay.
I am all but legal.
Because I'm not an attorney.
Right, right.
So when you think about it, when Ithink about it, most of the decisions
that we make no matter what are familyand financial, they're not legal.
We're not making legal decisions.
So an attorney in divorce is reallyuseful and I believe necessary, unless
(02:46):
it's the simplest of situations to makesure there aren't any legal mistakes
in dissolving the divorce contract.
'cause that's what's happening here.
Mm-Hmm . But for your life.
The decisions that are going to shape itare the financial and the family ones.
So I'm not the legal part.
I'm the other part.
So all but the legal,the financial and family.
(03:09):
That makes so much sense.
And I really love as you and all ofyour work, how you talk about avoiding
being an emotional, emotionalist robot,you know, like entering into that, like
you were just saying that divorce thateverybody thinks you should have the
divorce that is just technical Beingfilled with emotion and like getting
what you need through the divorce.
So what does that mean to you tohave like an emotion, full divorce?
(03:32):
I think there's a tendency to either say,well, I guess you bucket it to, to say,
no, you need to make logical decisions.
So we're recognizing there canbe a lot at stake, but being
told just be logical, make sense.
Well, you're dissolving your life.
You're changing everything you'repivoting and whether you're the one
(03:55):
who wants the divorce or the onewho is being asked for a divorce or
told you're going to get a divorce.
There are a lot of motions involved inthat, you know, there's a lot to unravel
and our emotions impact our decisions.
No matter what, you know, weare not logical creatures.
We are behavioral creatures.
We are emotional creatures.
(04:17):
So as much as it sounds goodto say, I guess, you know,
just it's a business decision.
Well, yeah, it's a business decision,but if you spent half of your life
with this human and you have all theseexperiences impacting your decision.
It's really not a business decision.
It's a balance of trying to make goodsound choices with good information and
(04:40):
acknowledging all of the emotional stuffand baggage you might be working through
that are impacting those decisions.
So I think rather than ignore theemotions, it makes more sense to.
acknowledge them and then understand howthose things are impacting the decisions
you're making, you know, and I've notwalked in the shoes of any of my clients.
(05:04):
So they might sometimes make decisionsthat to me are not logical, but
they have really good information.
They've lived their lives andthey're making their own decision.
So it's kind of honoring that process.
Rather than, you know, basicallytelling people they're not doing smart
things because they're not making whata spreadsheet says in their decision.
(05:28):
Right.
Yeah.
You have to be able to balance.
I like how you're talking about that.
So how do you, how do youknow if you are balancing?
How do you know if it's not, if you'reputting too much emotion in, or if
you're making too gut, you know, gutdecisions versus logical decisions,
you know, how do you know when you'veThat's a really great question.
I love that question.
My answer is I don't know, butI'll answer it with a story.
(05:52):
Way back when I was getting my master'sin education at the same time, I had
my first child and I wrote a paper andin the paper I alluded to, and it was,
so I had this baby and I was taking achild development class and it was just
enough to kind of mess with your head.
Right?
Like, Oh, no, am I doing anything right?
(06:13):
And her answer to me in thispaper was, if you're even thinking
about it, You're good enough.
It's like this good enough concept.
So I would apply to that, thatto the balance in divorce.
If you're thinking about it, you'redoing the best that you can at that time.
Now you might look back and go,Oh, I was overly emotional or, Oh,
(06:36):
I wasn't emotional enough, or Idid not acknowledge my emotions.
I think all you can do whileyou're going through this is be
present, be as thoughtful as youcan and get the correct support.
Yes.
Yes.
I love that.
We're all doing our best.
And yeah, I think that, yeah, I wasconnecting a lot to, as you were saying,
(06:58):
like when it comes to parenting, youknow, one, if you're thinking about
it, if you're getting the information,then you're, you're likely doing
what you're supposed to be doing.
And you have to figurethat out along the way.
Yes.
And there's, there's still probablygoing to be mistakes or we all
look back and go, wow, I wouldhave done that differently now.
Right.
You know, be present and thinkabout it and then you're doing,
(07:19):
you're doing the best that you can.
It's when you check out and don'tgive thought to it or do what
someone else tells you to do.
That's when you're probably notdoing the best that you can.
Right.
I'm guessing that if you're herelistening to this podcast right now,
that you're also already a step aheadof doing the best you can, right?
Getting the information you need,thinking about what you're, you
(07:42):
know, what you need in your divorce.
And so that's good.
You're on the right path.
Right.
Right.
Sure.
I think part of that and what I wantto talk to you for a chunk of is
like, in order to take some of, youknow, to be logical and emotional at
the same time, we have to debunk someof the myths that come with divorce.
Cause I think as we all start I, notall of us, I can't be generic, but I
know when I started my divorce process,I had no freaking clue what to do.
(08:04):
I only had an idea oflike what my parents did.
My parents had gotten divorced.
My ex's parents had gotten divorcedand it was just a completely
different process in the eighties.
Right.
Like this is.
The new day, this is, youknow, a new life we have and
there's all these other factors.
So I'd like to walk through,yeah, so many changes.
It's different.
I'd like to walk through somemyths and see where, you know,
(08:25):
see if you can help me debunksome of those and what they mean.
So when I hear really frequently,frequently is should I get
an attorney right away?
And do I need to likebeat my spouse to filing?
Is it like important for me tofile first and to get ahead of it?
No, no, no.
It's not.
And honestly, if somewhere, somehowsomeone says it is, there's probably
(08:49):
another influence in them sayingthat every single attorney I talked
to, I'll qualify that a little bit.
There might be a psychological factorif you are waging war, like if you
are going into your divorce All outwar like that is your mindset and you
(09:10):
want to surprise your spouse with a,you know, you've been served while
they're presenting to the board at work.
I mean, that says something, doesn't it?
Yeah.
Is there an advantage legally?
I've been told no, not at all.
It doesn't mean youget to pick your judge.
It doesn't mean youget a bunch of choices.
They don't get, you're still in thesame system doing the same things.
(09:33):
I think that surprise filingsactually can be detrimental for
exactly that reason, because they,they are saying this is not going to
be a process where we communicate.
We are doing this through attorneys.
We are doing it through the courtsystem and I am willing to ambush you.
(09:53):
Yeah, I think in a lot of ways it saysthat I mean, even if someone needs to
be served if they don't forego beingserved, then there are ways to do it
where they can be expecting it, they canbe in a place where it is more private
and less public, things like that.
So that's the serving thing.
(10:14):
There really doesn'tseem to be an advantage.
Unless you, you, for somereason want, you're going to
be X to be, you know, set back.
Yeah.
And then I guess that's a sign onthe other end is if your ex did
that to you, what that means forboundaries you need to put into
place and how you handle the process.
Yeah.
That doesn't mean we're going to workthis out together and it's all going
(10:36):
to be very friendly and kumbaya.
That kind of means it either means I'mafraid of you or I'm out for you in,
in my estimation, or it means that.
You just think that's how it's supposedto be done because you didn't get the
information that you have other options.
So you think, because that'skind of the soap opera TV version
(10:58):
of it, that that's what you do.
You file secretly, andthen you serve your spouse.
And people need to know thatthey have many other options.
They don't have to hire anattorney file And, you know,
start off the process that way.
And then your attorney question.
It's funny.
I did a podcast yesterday with an attorneyand she's like, I love that you say,
(11:18):
don't go to an attorney first, becauseI say, don't go to an attorney first.
I, I think, yes, get an attorney,but get an attorney that
matches the process you want.
The purpose you want and howyou want your divorce to look.
And if you first hire an attorneybecause your aunt or your cousin or
(11:39):
your neighbor or your coworker had agood experience with that attorney, but
their divorce was entirely different,you might not have the right attorney.
So I really believe theorder is figure out.
Your purpose, like, what is yoursituation and what do you want
your life to look like after this?
Do you want to be able to walk yourchild down the aisle together and sit
(12:02):
at the same table at their wedding?
Do you want to never speak to them again?
Do you want to, you know, be able to goto parent teacher conferences together?
Or do you not give a rat's ass?
You know, there's no right or wrong.
What do you want?
So the first thing I really think isfigure out what you want and figure
it out, not based on the space you'rein now alone, figure it out based on
(12:26):
what you want your life to look likewhen this is over and five years after
it's over and 20 years after it's over.
That's your first work.
I really think because then you're makingyourself a goal or a target and you're
way more likely to hit it if you have it.
If you don't have it and you're justkind of wildly going through what
you think you're supposed to do.
Based on, I don't know what, then it'slikely to get away from you, the process.
(12:52):
So first purpose, then process.
So if you and you're goingto be ex can still talk, you
still sit at the same table.
I've had people who plan to livetogether after the divorce for financial
reasons and they're good with that.
Like you do you, they do them.
In that case, if they had gone out andimmediately hired attorneys who love
(13:14):
going to court, they would have hadan entirely different experience than
they were able to sit in this officeand make their own decisions within
a couple of months, still be friends.
That was them, because they matchedwhat they wanted their divorce to look
like to the professional they hired.
On the other hand, if you're in a reallycomplicated financial situation or an
(13:38):
abusive relationship, or you're not ableto have those conversations, and you hire
someone who is a, is used to doing reallysimple uncontested events, then they're
not going to be the right person for you.
So you got to look at your situationand figure out, do you want to mediate?
Do you want to litigate?
Do you want a collaborative process?
(14:00):
And then you find the professionalsthat support that thing.
And it might not just be an attorney.
Yeah.
What if you're listening now and you'relike, I don't have the right attorney.
I need to turn this around.
Like, I mean, what do you do?
I mean, I guess there's ways toconnect with your attorney and ask
them better questions or, you know,You know, talk, slow the process
(14:22):
down, like that sort of thing.
But what do you do to switch it around?
Yeah, I think you need tolook at what's best for you.
I have had clients who I was coaching,not mediating, know that they were in
that situation, go to their attorney andreally say, like, this is what I need.
This is what I'm looking for.
And sometimes the attorneyhas gone, Oh, okay.
I got your back.
That's just not how I normally work.
(14:43):
But good.
I can do that.
Other times there have been attorneyswho have said, I'm the professional here.
You need to do what I tell you to doand I do not want to hear from you.
You got to decide whetheryou're going to live with that
or whether you say, thank you.
I think I need to find someone whowill do this the way I want to do this.
(15:04):
And I don't know.
That's where the information is important.
I mean, sometimes people have paidthat retainer and feel really stuck.
And you got to weighwhat, what is it worth?
Like all the way through adivorce process, there's a
lot of, what is it worth?
Is it worth ongoing discussionand negotiation and cost and time?
(15:28):
Or is it something that you say, okay,I'm going to just set that aside so I
can get out of this and on with life.
Yeah.
And then checking yourself.
Throughout the way.
I love that how you're saying thattoo, is like, do what's best for you.
It's okay to switch it.
It's okay.
Yeah.
Like weigh all the options.
There's so much decision making through adivorce process in so many different ways.
(15:49):
There's so much.
And I see people sometimes just frozenby all the decisions, get the support you
need to help you make those decisions.
Good support, not socialmedia support, not like.
Post on Facebook and people you don'teven know are telling you what to do, but
support that fits you and your situation.
And sometimes people will say, Oh,you know, I can't have a coach.
(16:11):
I can't have a financial analyst.
I can't have a vocational specialistor whatever it costs too much.
And I really think it costs too much tonot, if you feel you need that thing,
you know, if you don't understand yourfinances, your attorney, that's not
their and leaning on them at probablya higher billing billable rate to Do
(16:32):
your finances for you could actuallycost you both more in professional fees
and more in in settlement and how youmove forward in your standard of living.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, you really need to havea whole pocket of people around
you in many different ways.
Right.
Yeah.
And just really encouragehow someone you feel.
(16:52):
works well with you, listensto you and has your back.
And if you're in this process and youfeel like you're not being tended to
and they don't have your back, thenyou got to look at what's at stake.
You know, is it, is it prettysimple and you might not like them
and you're not going to go out fordinner with them afterwards, but
they're going to do an okay job.
Or could it be that you end up in aworse off position post divorce because.
(17:26):
I'm just thinking about how much, asyou talk, how much intuition it takes,
how much you have to trust yourself,how much you keep checking in, right?
It's a back and forth process.
It's not just a smooth, linear linethat you're going through here.
It's not.
It's a constant circleback in, in my book.
The first thing I talk about is figureout your purpose and then as we travel
through it, keep going back to that.
(17:49):
Because it might shift, and there'snothing wrong with that either, as
long as you're thinking about it.
If you're, you know, we think of mindfulas kind of yogi and we're meditating,
but I mean, mindful, like where are you?
What do you need?
Going back to your percenttime, what serve you now?
You know, at the beginning it mighthave just been space you might've just
(18:10):
needed out of that situation, midwaythrough when you've had that space, your
goals might shift, and then you haveto kind of realign what you're doing.
You know, divorce can take a long time.
There's a lot of, when you thinkof how much you can change in a
year or two years, how much lifecan change your goals might shift.
(18:30):
Yeah, for real.
I feel like I'm, I am three years out ofthe legal process, but we started that
process close to a year before we even fitin, like before I was actually divorced.
And then, so it's just like all ofthese, yeah, my life is completely
different than it was then.
And it's also hard to set up, like,especially if you have kids, you, I think
it's a little bit easier to say, likewhat do they need through the whole time?
(18:53):
But then once things start settlingin, you start co parenting the
other, things can even shift.
But that means that.
You go back to it then, right?
Go back to your purpose, see what youneed to shift, that sort of stuff.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
I think so.
Let's talk about another myth, one that Ifeel like came up a lot, I hear also a lot
that men will always have to pay spousalsupport and child support, and we get
(19:17):
to pick if we get to pay child support.
So how does support actually work?
So let's take them in inverse order.
You do not get to pickif you pay child support.
I have had many people come into meat the beginning and either one says,
I'm not paying child support, or theyboth will say, Oh, we don't, we don't
want to do that child support thing.
(19:38):
The court wants you to do child support.
And every state, every statehas a law on child support.
And it's a formula and you plug yournumbers into the formula and to deviate
from the formula, you need to have areally good reason because I mean, when
you think about it, it's there to ensurethe standard of living for the kids.
(20:01):
It's only there based onfood, shelter and clothing.
So it's not so the kid can go tospace camp or vacation in Paris.
It's really set to make surethere's a formula that says.
Going between these two households,this child is going to at least
be taken care of with basic needs.
(20:21):
So to, to say you're not paying itis In my mind, kind of a waste of
time because the reality check is thegovernment, our laws say wherever you
live, because divorce law varies wildlyfrom state to state and jurisdiction to
jurisdiction, but child support, whilethe formulas differ, it exists everywhere.
(20:46):
So it's not an opt in situation.
You have to pay child support.
All right.
Check.
What about Yeah, in most statesor all states child support.
There are child support rulesin all states all states.
Okay, alimony maintenance orspousal support is an entirely
different animal but child support.
There are there are rules in all states.
(21:08):
They use different formulas.
But it exists.
Yeah.
So then when it comes to spousal support,I think that it is important, right?
To talk to an attorney or somebodyin your state for how that works.
Like if you were the one asking fora divorce, if you're the one not,
you know, depending on salaries,if you work from home, you know,
all of those factors, right?
And if there are formulas, if there aren'tformulas, what the tendency has been in
(21:32):
10 years ago is not what is happening now.
People try to figure out a wayto sometimes, you know, how
can I get out of paying it?
How can I get around it?
And I think that's a costly mindsetbecause they can spend as much in the
court, trying to get around payingsome kind of alimony or spousal
(21:54):
support as they would to help.
And the reason for spousal support, therecan be many reasons, you know, someone
has been at home for decades and can'tstep right back into the workforce, then
there's a need to either get new training.
So you're able to earn a living orget support if you haven't been the
(22:16):
earner and the other person is able to.
support you.
There are a lot of differentways to look at it.
Different states have formulas.
I came from Illinois, which has a formula.
You plug in incomes andduration of marriage.
It says, here's your supportunless you're high income earner,
and then you can deviate fromthat, but you can't deviate down.
(22:37):
I now live in Tennessee.
There's not a formula.
There are just differenttypes of spousal support.
So you can kind of go well based onwhat seems to be going on in the courts.
This is what it might look like.
And then there are other states,Texas might be an example where they
tend not to award much maintenancein relation to other jurisdictions.
(23:02):
So it really depends.
So good to know what your jurisdictionoffers and ask all those questions.
Yeah.
And that can help set expectations.
And the other thing you said was,you know, the man always pays.
No, they don't.
It's really income basedversus gender based.
Yeah.
So usually.
(23:24):
If there is a formula, it's goingto be a percentage of the higher
income earner, less a percentage ofthe lower income earner take into
account the duration of the marriage.
And that is your number.
If there's not, then we're going tolook at like, what is the Disadvantaged
or economically disadvantaged spouse.
What's, what's theirlife going to look like?
(23:45):
What do they need to have adecent standard of living?
If they're really high income earners,then the court might want them to
maintain their standard of living.
So that's kind of the backdrop where, youknow, if someone is earning seven figures.
And they're used to living that lifestyleand they've been married for a long time.
They're much more likely to beawarded alimony or spousal support.
(24:07):
That's going to keep them in theway they've become accustomed rather
than say, no, you need to go work.
I used to say bed, bath and beyond, butthey're no longer around, you know, you
need to go work target and that, thatis how your life is going to unfold.
So
I guess the caution there is just get it.
It's based on income.
Not gender.
(24:28):
And you need to understand how yourparticular jurisdiction treats.
alimony in order to know whatmight happen if you go to court.
If we're sticking on this conversationabout finances, I think one of the
things that we hear a lot is that divorcereally costs a ton of money, right?
So you're going to now bepaying for two mortgages.
(24:50):
Some people, somebody ishaving to pay child support.
Somebody is paying, you know, alimonypotentially, you know, whatever, all
of those expenses that go into it.
But does divorce haveto be super expensive?
And like, how do you, isthere a way to avoid that?
You know, what do you, Well, I think thereare two ways to look at the expenses.
There are the expenses of goingthrough the divorce itself.
And then there are the expensesof supporting two households as
(25:15):
you move into what's next in life.
Divorce costs can rangeanywhere from, you know, 199.
Or court filing fees or, youknow, DIY paperwork to hundreds of
thousands or even millions of dollars,depending on people's net worth.
(25:37):
So the cost of divorce itself is driven,I think, a lot by net worth and profit.
The process that you're using, so ifyou're mediating, it's probably and
mediating in that not a court orderedmediation, but a really, you've signed
up with the mediator and that's how youwant to come to your agreement mediation.
(26:00):
That's going to cost less probablythan the collaborative process
where you have more professionalsinvolved, but it's still out of court.
You're making your own calendar.
You're figuring out your ownschedule, your own goals and whatnot.
If you're litigating.
You're, you're kind of turning it over.
You're, you're, you're stillthe one who says I accept her.
(26:21):
I don't accept, but you'redoing it in the court system.
Again, the attorney I talked toyesterday, she said, it's going to be 18
months before you're even on a docket.
And then I spoke to someone else recentlywho said, yeah, in our area, you're
going to get scheduled in nine months,but you're going to get continued
because something is going to come up.
So we just look at it.
Like it's probably your third timeyou're scheduled that you're actually
(26:44):
going to be heard for the first time.
Yeah.
Oh, during all those processes,there's still a lot of behind
the scenes stuff going on.
There's discovery you're paying for that.
Attorneys are having conferences,you're conferencing with your attorneys.
There might be other professionals.
There's unless you really put abudget to it, it costs what it costs.
(27:06):
The average, I think is around 17, 18, 000right now, but that's going to include the
expenses all the way down to the DIY ones.
Do it yourself, kitchentable kind of divorce.
Yeah.
And then the after divorce, I mean,that's a really good question.
It just depends.
(27:26):
I don't think there's ananswer I have for that.
It depends on the situation.
If they're high earners, there might justbe a little blip in splitting households.
If one person was the primary breadwinnerand they didn't make a lot of money
and the other person stayed home.
There's going to be a serious hiton the standard of living for that
household and anywhere in between.
(27:48):
Yeah.
You have to be prepared for that asyou're going through the process.
And how, like, it's part ofwhat the way life changes as
you're going through divorce.
Right.
Right.
And what I find, I go through myclients, we go through projecting
their expenses post divorce.
So they know what they can live on.
They know what a minimalstandard of living is.
And what I find is when they're justtalking vague numbers, the person who will
(28:12):
be paying support or helping reestablishthe person who earns less, they're
much less likely to feel good about.
Giving that, then if you'reable to say like, look, this is
how they're going to be living.
This is our budget.
These are their expenses or theirmoney worksheet, whatever we call it.
And they can look at it and go.
Wow.
(28:33):
You know, they, they are not takingextravagant vacations based on this.
They are living, you know, they mightgo to a movie or have some money in
for going out, but they're not spendinga ton of money than the other person
is much more able to empathize andfeel okay about paying that support.
It's putting it in context.
(28:53):
Yeah.
Instead of just like where to getthat number, it seems like a lot.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And I feel like as we talk throughthis, I, I know that there's so
many different factors, right?
So we're talking a little bit about,like, how do you want the process to
be talking about support and finances?
Like this is, you know, going in depthof these, but I appreciate the, the way
(29:14):
you're talking about how to structureit for yourself and going back to your
purpose and like what each of these means.
And, I think one of the other questions,like, on the next level of that is that
one of the things that comes up or amyth that comes up is that you can't
date while you're going through divorce.
And I think one of the things, especiallyin queer divorce there's higher
levels of people who are living inpolyamorous communities or people who
(29:37):
are, or maybe are leaving their They'restraight marriage for queer mar a queer
relationship or you know, like there'slots of different factors that play into
why that divorce might be happening.
And so there's a lot of messmixed messages about that.
So like, can we date during divorce?
How do we know if we can,like, how does that all go?
This really good question andthere's no one answer again.
(30:00):
So much of it depends on where you live.
And what the views andlaws are where you live.
In some places they just don't care.
Like, so we're the backdrop for allof this is what would happen in court.
You're getting divorced.
They're really busy systems as isevidenced by how long it takes to go
(30:21):
through the system and get divorced.
They don't care who is dating whom,what gender or sexual identity they are.
When they start, like,they just don't care.
Let's process this divorce and moveon to the next one because there
are hundreds lined up behind you.
There are other states where that iscause and that can severely impact
(30:45):
whether you get alimony or not,whether you have to pay alimony or not.
So you really have to knowwhat's going on where you live
in order to make that decision.
And if you make the decision, youknow, you're getting divorced and
you make the decision to date.
and you're in a place where you wouldhave been getting alimony and it can be
(31:09):
held against you, then you, you couldlose that support because you did.
It's always less messy tonot date, but life is messy.
Yeah.
Are there situations wherethe spouse can bring it up?
Like, I know, I think I'm inMichigan and we kind of have a no
default, no fault divorce process.
(31:31):
So in my state, likely it wouldn't matterif, you know, if you were dating somebody,
but there could be a case, could there bea case where I guess when custody comes
up, if you don't have a good connectionwith your spouse, where they could use it
against you, but that would be like, Waydown the line, if you're in court, right?
Like what's the custody, it's going todepend on the nature of the relationship
(31:56):
and the person, the relationship is.
with most likely.
So if, if someone is dating someone andcustody is in question because of whom
they're dating, it's more likely to bebecause they have a criminal record.
They do drugs.
Like there's some, there arepedophile, you know, there's some
(32:18):
danger to the child in that situation.
They're violent.
You know, it's more likely to be thatthat's going to come into play with
custody than There's just anothersignificant other in the picture, you
know, there, there's more likely thereneeds to be a reason to question custody
(32:40):
and more and more the trend in custody is5050 the, you know, every other weekend
for the, the dad is, is, you know, Ifit's not gone, it's certainly going.
Yeah.
And I think as you're, as you're sayingthat too, I'm thinking that there's
really, the issue is that the court hasto be a good reason for something, right?
(33:02):
The court, if you're in litigation,if you're going through the process,
the court's not going to really, youknow, unless there's a legal standard
in your community, like you can'tdate or You can't leave for another
spouse or infidelity or whatever unlessthere's a big issue for the kids or
a big issue for you, it's not evengoing to be brought to the table as
something that's important or considered.
In the process, if it's a safety issue,and we are just now starting to see if
(33:28):
it's a parental alienation issue, whichhasn't, it can be a touchy subject.
Some people don't even believe in it.
Others think it's rampant, but it'sstarting to be addressed by the
courts in a way it hasn't been before.
And that is not necessarily physicalsafety for the child, but it is
(33:50):
undermining the relationship withthe other parents and courts are
starting to hear more about that.
Yeah.
Can you explain that a little bit more?
What is parental alienation?
Parental alienation is where oneparent undermines the relationship
of the child with the other parentand they do it purposefully and it
(34:14):
causes a significant amount of damage.
And it's, it's hard to spot becauseit doesn't have bruises, you know, but
it might be that the child now doesn'twant to go see the other parent anymore.
They don't want to have theirparenting time with them.
Or when they do, they startmaking comments and that parent is
like, where is that coming from?
(34:35):
And it might be there,you know, it's derogatory.
So that means when the parent whois doing the alienating is spending
time with the child, they're sayingthings like, you know, Oh, you
know, your mother never loved you.
She didn't want to have you.
She's so glad not to have youaround or, you know, she's a cheat.
She, whatever.
(34:56):
It's planting seeds of bad thingsthat can be really impressionable.
And then when the child goes tomom's house and is like, you cheated.
Mom might be like, I have noidea what you're talking about.
And maybe didn't cheat.
Right.
And that's where the alienation comes in.
It's like a campaign to alienate, toturn the child against the other parent.
(35:21):
Right.
And so that's put in place to supportpeople who are going through maybe
domestic violence struggles oremotional abuse issues with, with the
person that they're divorcing, right?
There might've been noneof that with a parent.
It's played out with a child, right?
So obviously they have a grudge.
But they might not, the one who's doingit, the parent who's doing it, they
might not even recognize that theyjust might not be thinking they might
(35:44):
be hurt and angry and they might feellike they need the child in their side.
And they're not being reallycognizant of what they're doing.
They're just saying what they're saying.
So sometimes it can come outof, it can come as a surprise.
Other times not, but it doesn't, it mightbe a new behavior, like something that
(36:06):
didn't happen in the marriage at all.
But now that they're divorced,that parent is like, Oh, I see the
opportunity to have this, this oneon my side or these kids on my side.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that sometimes what I've beenhearing from others in the podcast and
from other people who are in the QueerDivorce Club group is that sometimes
that can happen where maybe the personthat was being left or the person, the
(36:29):
parent is having an emotional struggleafterwards and they're putting it
on the kid unintentionally, right.
Or the kid is seeing that from them,you know, yeah, it's hard balance to, to
find if you're in a really emotionallyunstable space following divorce.
It is, and there's kind of a differencethere too, where a lot of, it can occur
(36:50):
before the divorce, but a lot of thatplays out after the divorce, where
more of the safety and custody issuestend to play out during the divorce.
Not that they can't happen after,but a lot of that happens before.
And that's when they might get aguardian ad litem involved, who's
going to represent the kids andfigure out what is in their best
interest going through this process.
(37:11):
Okay.
And in the process we should remembertoo that most states have the
ability after you've put your custodyagreement in place to have a review
of that custody agreement, right?
I know in Michigan it's every three yearsit automatically happens for both child
support and for your custody agreement.
I think child support is automatic andyou can also bring then the custody
(37:33):
changes up at that time but otherstates have more frequent options too.
Yep and sometimes peopleelect a more frequent review.
You know, I've had people write uptheir agreements when they have very
young children that they're going toreview them every three or six months.
Because And they're doing it thoughtfullybecause the needs of the child may change
significantly from a one year old toeven a three year old or four year old.
(37:57):
So even if they're changing theirparenting schedule or what have
you, they're looking at it moreconsistently until the child is older.
Yeah, it's interesting to thinkabout putting that stuff in place
to be able to check back on it.
I don't think that I thought aboutthat as I was going through my process
that there's these markers that Icould change what our agreement was.
That if we actually put them inplace to be intentional about
(38:19):
shifting it for the kids or shiftingit based on our life agreement.
I think some of that'sin there, but not a lot.
Mm hmm.
And most states, in myexperience, don't have that.
I do an addendum with the folks I workwith because the state agreements.
tend to be who has decision makingpower and what the schedule is and
what child support is going to be.
(38:40):
And we talk a lot more about thequalitative things that pop up
that cause bumps in co parenting,like disciplining before, between
households or communications ortattoos or what have you, just how
are you going to treat this religion?
What if they want to go toa regular church group and
(39:02):
someone turns into an atheist?
How are you going to handle it?
So it's more just the walking downthe road of how do you want to handle
these things when they come up?
And those, yeah, that feels reallysecure to me to think about.
Like if you're on the page of talkingand maybe things are contentious right
away at the divorce and you don'tnecessarily know what's going to happen
in three to six months and kids changeas they grow in so many different ways
and your life's splitting up, you don'tknow what it's going to look like.
(39:25):
So having some of those safeguards inplace seems like that can be really good.
Yeah, you don't know.
And then people go on and have othersignificant others and new families
and that all impacts it again.
So there's a lot to navigate.
Yeah, so much.
So how do we leave people with, we'relike, there's all these things that you
have to think about, there's so much,what would you leave our listeners
(39:46):
with if you said like, what's themost important thing to think about
as you're navigating this process?
Stay centered on where you are and whatis best for you in the moment you're in.
And keep checking back in on that.
Just keep checking back in on it.
(40:07):
Look at where you'regetting your information.
You know, are you goingto sources like this?
You said at the beginning, peopleare becoming informed just simply
because they're tuning into this.
They're looking for information, butyou are also vetting the people that
you're presenting, you're not, you know,hauling someone in off the street and
(40:29):
say, and let's come chat about this.
When you're getting your informationor your advice from Facebook or some
other social media connection, youmight not even know who's posting
and telling you what to do, butI've seen posts around here where
someone will ask a divorce questionand they'll get a hundred responses.
(40:51):
They don't even know who thepeople are responding to them.
Be very careful about taking,and a lot of it, when I read
through it, it's just wrong.
It, don't take legal advice or getlegal advice or financial advice or
coaching advice, parenting adviceto, to a degree, I suppose from an
unknown on Facebook, vet your sources.
(41:11):
Yeah.
So know where you are and what youwant and what's important to you now.
And it's okay if what's important toyou is to take a break and step away.
Maybe that's what you need.
Or it's okay if what's important is to,you know, concentrate on your career
or what your new vocation will be.
It's okay if just check in withyou and what you need and then
(41:33):
make sure you're getting advicefrom good, reliable resource.
Not from some unknown, I don't know, yeah,so it's good to share stories and get
support, but then double check if you're,when you're making decisions to make sure
it's right for your space, make sure thatyou have somebody that knows legally,
(41:56):
financially what is right in your, okay.
And you're staying in your situation.
And then go from there.
Yeah.
And I think I look at the differencebeing like you said, share stories.
That's beautiful.
You are not alone.
You are part of a community and acrew and you have support sharing
is one thing when someone istelling you, Oh no, you're wrong.
You have to do it this way.
(42:16):
That is not sharing.
That's telling.
And they might be telling like, I'll,I'll see people, for example, here
say, Oh no, you don't understand.
It's a 50 50 state, and no matter what youdo, everything will be divided equally.
Well, we're not a 50 50 state, we'rean equitable distribution state.
Whole nother story there, so it's wrong.
So, be careful about what you takeas fact, or the, you know, he's
(42:43):
gotta pay you spousal support oralimony for, you know, 20 years.
Well, no.
Yeah.
So people can start counting on that.
Like, no, I heard that you have to pay me.
And maybe the answer is yes.
Right.
But everybody has an opinion aboutwhat you should do in your divorce.
(43:04):
Yeah, and I guess that's the, that'sthe third thing, who you surround
yourself with makes a big difference.
And if you surround yourself with,you know, people who have a negative
outlook or are bitter or angry,that's, that's the space that
you're allowing yourself to be in.
And if you surround yourself withpeople who are going to help you move
(43:24):
forward and support you and empoweryou, then that's the space you'll be in.
I love that.
I love that.
Such good advice.
I really appreciate you being here with ustoday and talking through all these myths
and there's, you have so much information.
So where can people go to findout more of What you have.
So a couple things.
My website is bridgingdivorce solutions.com.
(43:47):
And there are blog posts andthings like that on the website.
I have a book on Amazon and that's,oh shit, I'm getting divorced.
The guide to Keeping Your Dignityand Dollars, which started out
as How to Divorce with Dignityand Grace, and everyone was like,
that's not what it feels like.
. I wish that I'm getting divorced.
So we changed the name.
And then with that, sometimes folks do notwant to order that on Amazon because they
(44:11):
don't want it to show on a joint account.
So they can just contact theoffice and we can either send
it electronically or physically.
Awesome.
That is a good a good thing.
There's these little things that happenin divorce that you don't always think.
Like I also was like sharingan Amazon account and needed to
like, not, you know, I don't know.
It's the weird things theyhave to split up in your life
that you don't think about.
I love that you have a solution for that.
(44:34):
Yeah.
And there's a follow up listthat we give our clients.
That's, you know, often we look at the dayyour divorce is final, you're done and you
still have a lot of work to do afterwards.
Dang it.
Oh shit.
I got more to do.
It's important.
It's true.
All right.
Thank you, Brenda.
I really appreciate it.
(44:55):
I appreciate you having me to talk.
Thank you.
Hi, Brenda.
Welcome to the Queer Divorce Club.
Hello, Tera.
How are you doing today?
Fabulous.
I appreciate you being here todaywith us and I'm hoping you can get us
started by just giving us a glimpseof the work you do with divorcees and
your own personal history with divorce.
Oh, that's, that's a lot.
I'll try to unravel it.
The work I do, I guess I would sumit up saying I help people get the
(00:29):
information that they need to maketheir best decisions for their
particular individual situation.
I find that often people are givenkind of cookie cutter answers, or
they are expected to fit into this.
Either soap opera version orneighbor's version, someone
(00:53):
else's version of what divorce is.
And I really believe stronglythat they need to be supported.
in their situation with their specificinformation in this place and time to
make their best decisions as opposed toturning over that power to somebody else.
And my divorce journey was,I had a long term marriage.
(01:16):
I had a great life.
The marriage wasn't so good becauseno good marriage ends in divorce.
And after 26 years, we went througha really expensive, unnecessarily
contentious, long divorce.
It was kind of.
The, the soap opera version, youknow, what people expect instead
(01:36):
of the expectation being, Oh, youcan be adults and work this out.
It turned into, you know, Oh no,you're supposed to fight for everything
you've got that kind of thing.
After coming through that, itreally did look at it and just
say, there's gotta be a better way.
And I don't want anyone else to gothrough that if they don't have to.
So I was at the time of financialadvisor and became a divorce financial
(02:00):
analyst, and then a divorce coach, andthen a mediator and a collaborative
divorce professional, which justmeans all those other trainings.
Plus the collaborative training allowedme to do work as a collaborative
professional, which is a differentprocess than a traditional divorce.
So that's kind of how I landed where I am.
You're hitting divorce from all angles.
(02:22):
I feel like that's awesome.
No, I'm actually not.
No?
Okay.
I am all but legal.
Because I'm not an attorney.
Right, right.
So when you think about it, when Ithink about it, most of the decisions
that we make no matter what are familyand financial, they're not legal.
We're not making legal decisions.
So an attorney in divorce is reallyuseful and I believe necessary, unless
(02:46):
it's the simplest of situations to makesure there aren't any legal mistakes
in dissolving the divorce contract.
'cause that's what's happening here.
Mm-Hmm . But for your life.
The decisions that are going to shape itare the financial and the family ones.
So I'm not the legal part.
I'm the other part.
So all but the legal,the financial and family.
(03:09):
That makes so much sense.
And I really love as you and all ofyour work, how you talk about avoiding
being an emotional, emotionalist robot,you know, like entering into that, like
you were just saying that divorce thateverybody thinks you should have the
divorce that is just technical Beingfilled with emotion and like getting
what you need through the divorce.
So what does that mean to you tohave like an emotion, full divorce?
(03:32):
I think there's a tendency to either say,well, I guess you bucket it to, to say,
no, you need to make logical decisions.
So we're recognizing there canbe a lot at stake, but being
told just be logical, make sense.
Well, you're dissolving your life.
You're changing everything you'repivoting and whether you're the one
(03:55):
who wants the divorce or the onewho is being asked for a divorce or
told you're going to get a divorce.
There are a lot of motions involved inthat, you know, there's a lot to unravel
and our emotions impact our decisions.
No matter what, you know, weare not logical creatures.
We are behavioral creatures.
We are emotional creatures.
(04:17):
So as much as it sounds goodto say, I guess, you know,
just it's a business decision.
Well, yeah, it's a business decision,but if you spent half of your life
with this human and you have all theseexperiences impacting your decision.
It's really not a business decision.
It's a balance of trying to make goodsound choices with good information and
(04:40):
acknowledging all of the emotional stuffand baggage you might be working through
that are impacting those decisions.
So I think rather than ignore theemotions, it makes more sense to.
acknowledge them and then understand howthose things are impacting the decisions
you're making, you know, and I've notwalked in the shoes of any of my clients.
(05:04):
So they might sometimes make decisionsthat to me are not logical, but
they have really good information.
They've lived their lives andthey're making their own decision.
So it's kind of honoring that process.
Rather than, you know, basicallytelling people they're not doing smart
things because they're not making whata spreadsheet says in their decision.
(05:28):
Right.
Yeah.
You have to be able to balance.
I like how you're talking about that.
So how do you, how do youknow if you are balancing?
How do you know if it's not, if you'reputting too much emotion in, or if
you're making too gut, you know, gutdecisions versus logical decisions,
you know, how do you know when you'veThat's a really great question.
I love that question.
My answer is I don't know, butI'll answer it with a story.
(05:52):
Way back when I was getting my master'sin education at the same time, I had
my first child and I wrote a paper andin the paper I alluded to, and it was,
so I had this baby and I was taking achild development class and it was just
enough to kind of mess with your head.
Right?
Like, Oh, no, am I doing anything right?
(06:13):
And her answer to me in thispaper was, if you're even thinking
about it, You're good enough.
It's like this good enough concept.
So I would apply to that, thatto the balance in divorce.
If you're thinking about it, you'redoing the best that you can at that time.
Now you might look back and go,Oh, I was overly emotional or, Oh,
(06:36):
I wasn't emotional enough, or Idid not acknowledge my emotions.
I think all you can do whileyou're going through this is be
present, be as thoughtful as youcan and get the correct support.
Yes.
Yes.
I love that.
We're all doing our best.
And yeah, I think that, yeah, I wasconnecting a lot to, as you were saying,
(06:58):
like when it comes to parenting, youknow, one, if you're thinking about
it, if you're getting the information,then you're, you're likely doing
what you're supposed to be doing.
And you have to figurethat out along the way.
Yes.
And there's, there's still probablygoing to be mistakes or we all
look back and go, wow, I wouldhave done that differently now.
Right.
You know, be present and thinkabout it and then you're doing,
(07:19):
you're doing the best that you can.
It's when you check out and don'tgive thought to it or do what
someone else tells you to do.
That's when you're probably notdoing the best that you can.
Right.
I'm guessing that if you're herelistening to this podcast right now,
that you're also already a step aheadof doing the best you can, right?
Getting the information you need,thinking about what you're, you
(07:42):
know, what you need in your divorce.
And so that's good.
You're on the right path.
Right.
Right.
Sure.
I think part of that and what I wantto talk to you for a chunk of is
like, in order to take some of, youknow, to be logical and emotional at
the same time, we have to debunk someof the myths that come with divorce.
Cause I think as we all start I, notall of us, I can't be generic, but I
know when I started my divorce process,I had no freaking clue what to do.
(08:04):
I only had an idea oflike what my parents did.
My parents had gotten divorced.
My ex's parents had gotten divorcedand it was just a completely
different process in the eighties.
Right.
Like this is.
The new day, this is, youknow, a new life we have and
there's all these other factors.
So I'd like to walk through,yeah, so many changes.
It's different.
I'd like to walk through somemyths and see where, you know,
(08:25):
see if you can help me debunksome of those and what they mean.
So when I hear really frequently,frequently is should I get
an attorney right away?
And do I need to likebeat my spouse to filing?
Is it like important for me tofile first and to get ahead of it?
No, no, no.
It's not.
And honestly, if somewhere, somehowsomeone says it is, there's probably
(08:49):
another influence in them sayingthat every single attorney I talked
to, I'll qualify that a little bit.
There might be a psychological factorif you are waging war, like if you
are going into your divorce All outwar like that is your mindset and you
(09:10):
want to surprise your spouse with a,you know, you've been served while
they're presenting to the board at work.
I mean, that says something, doesn't it?
Yeah.
Is there an advantage legally?
I've been told no, not at all.
It doesn't mean youget to pick your judge.
It doesn't mean youget a bunch of choices.
They don't get, you're still in thesame system doing the same things.
(09:33):
I think that surprise filingsactually can be detrimental for
exactly that reason, because they,they are saying this is not going to
be a process where we communicate.
We are doing this through attorneys.
We are doing it through the courtsystem and I am willing to ambush you.
(09:53):
Yeah, I think in a lot of ways it saysthat I mean, even if someone needs to
be served if they don't forego beingserved, then there are ways to do it
where they can be expecting it, they canbe in a place where it is more private
and less public, things like that.
So that's the serving thing.
(10:14):
There really doesn'tseem to be an advantage.
Unless you, you, for somereason want, you're going to
be X to be, you know, set back.
Yeah.
And then I guess that's a sign onthe other end is if your ex did
that to you, what that means forboundaries you need to put into
place and how you handle the process.
Yeah.
That doesn't mean we're going to workthis out together and it's all going
(10:36):
to be very friendly and kumbaya.
That kind of means it either means I'mafraid of you or I'm out for you in,
in my estimation, or it means that.
You just think that's how it's supposedto be done because you didn't get the
information that you have other options.
So you think, because that'skind of the soap opera TV version
(10:58):
of it, that that's what you do.
You file secretly, andthen you serve your spouse.
And people need to know thatthey have many other options.
They don't have to hire anattorney file And, you know,
start off the process that way.
And then your attorney question.
It's funny.
I did a podcast yesterday with an attorneyand she's like, I love that you say,
(11:18):
don't go to an attorney first, becauseI say, don't go to an attorney first.
I, I think, yes, get an attorney,but get an attorney that
matches the process you want.
The purpose you want and howyou want your divorce to look.
And if you first hire an attorneybecause your aunt or your cousin or
(11:39):
your neighbor or your coworker had agood experience with that attorney, but
their divorce was entirely different,you might not have the right attorney.
So I really believe theorder is figure out.
Your purpose, like, what is yoursituation and what do you want
your life to look like after this?
Do you want to be able to walk yourchild down the aisle together and sit
(12:02):
at the same table at their wedding?
Do you want to never speak to them again?
Do you want to, you know, be able to goto parent teacher conferences together?
Or do you not give a rat's ass?
You know, there's no right or wrong.
What do you want?
So the first thing I really think isfigure out what you want and figure
it out, not based on the space you'rein now alone, figure it out based on
(12:26):
what you want your life to look likewhen this is over and five years after
it's over and 20 years after it's over.
That's your first work.
I really think because then you're makingyourself a goal or a target and you're
way more likely to hit it if you have it.
If you don't have it and you're justkind of wildly going through what
you think you're supposed to do.
Based on, I don't know what, then it'slikely to get away from you, the process.
(12:52):
So first purpose, then process.
So if you and you're goingto be ex can still talk, you
still sit at the same table.
I've had people who plan to livetogether after the divorce for financial
reasons and they're good with that.
Like you do you, they do them.
In that case, if they had gone out andimmediately hired attorneys who love
(13:14):
going to court, they would have hadan entirely different experience than
they were able to sit in this officeand make their own decisions within
a couple of months, still be friends.
That was them, because they matchedwhat they wanted their divorce to look
like to the professional they hired.
On the other hand, if you're in a reallycomplicated financial situation or an
(13:38):
abusive relationship, or you're not ableto have those conversations, and you hire
someone who is a, is used to doing reallysimple uncontested events, then they're
not going to be the right person for you.
So you got to look at your situationand figure out, do you want to mediate?
Do you want to litigate?
Do you want a collaborative process?
(14:00):
And then you find the professionalsthat support that thing.
And it might not just be an attorney.
Yeah.
What if you're listening now and you'relike, I don't have the right attorney.
I need to turn this around.
Like, I mean, what do you do?
I mean, I guess there's ways toconnect with your attorney and ask
them better questions or, you know,You know, talk, slow the process
(14:22):
down, like that sort of thing.
But what do you do to switch it around?
Yeah, I think you need tolook at what's best for you.
I have had clients who I was coaching,not mediating, know that they were in
that situation, go to their attorney andreally say, like, this is what I need.
This is what I'm looking for.
And sometimes the attorneyhas gone, Oh, okay.
I got your back.
That's just not how I normally work.
(14:43):
But good.
I can do that.
Other times there have been attorneyswho have said, I'm the professional here.
You need to do what I tell you to doand I do not want to hear from you.
You got to decide whetheryou're going to live with that
or whether you say, thank you.
I think I need to find someone whowill do this the way I want to do this.
(15:04):
And I don't know.
That's where the information is important.
I mean, sometimes people have paidthat retainer and feel really stuck.
And you got to weighwhat, what is it worth?
Like all the way through adivorce process, there's a
lot of, what is it worth?
Is it worth ongoing discussionand negotiation and cost and time?
(15:28):
Or is it something that you say, okay,I'm going to just set that aside so I
can get out of this and on with life.
Yeah.
And then checking yourself.
Throughout the way.
I love that how you're saying thattoo, is like, do what's best for you.
It's okay to switch it.
It's okay.
Yeah.
Like weigh all the options.
There's so much decision making through adivorce process in so many different ways.
(15:49):
There's so much.
And I see people sometimes just frozenby all the decisions, get the support you
need to help you make those decisions.
Good support, not socialmedia support, not like.
Post on Facebook and people you don'teven know are telling you what to do, but
support that fits you and your situation.
And sometimes people will say, Oh,you know, I can't have a coach.
(16:11):
I can't have a financial analyst.
I can't have a vocational specialistor whatever it costs too much.
And I really think it costs too much tonot, if you feel you need that thing,
you know, if you don't understand yourfinances, your attorney, that's not
their and leaning on them at probablya higher billing billable rate to Do
(16:32):
your finances for you could actuallycost you both more in professional fees
and more in in settlement and how youmove forward in your standard of living.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, you really need to havea whole pocket of people around
you in many different ways.
Right.
Yeah.
And just really encouragehow someone you feel.
(16:52):
works well with you, listensto you and has your back.
And if you're in this process and youfeel like you're not being tended to
and they don't have your back, thenyou got to look at what's at stake.
You know, is it, is it prettysimple and you might not like them
and you're not going to go out fordinner with them afterwards, but
they're going to do an okay job.
Or could it be that you end up in aworse off position post divorce because.
(17:26):
I'm just thinking about how much, asyou talk, how much intuition it takes,
how much you have to trust yourself,how much you keep checking in, right?
It's a back and forth process.
It's not just a smooth, linear linethat you're going through here.
It's not.
It's a constant circleback in, in my book.
The first thing I talk about is figureout your purpose and then as we travel
through it, keep going back to that.
(17:49):
Because it might shift, and there'snothing wrong with that either, as
long as you're thinking about it.
If you're, you know, we think of mindfulas kind of yogi and we're meditating,
but I mean, mindful, like where are you?
What do you need?
Going back to your percenttime, what serve you now?
You know, at the beginning it mighthave just been space you might've just
(18:10):
needed out of that situation, midwaythrough when you've had that space, your
goals might shift, and then you haveto kind of realign what you're doing.
You know, divorce can take a long time.
There's a lot of, when you thinkof how much you can change in a
year or two years, how much lifecan change your goals might shift.
(18:30):
Yeah, for real.
I feel like I'm, I am three years out ofthe legal process, but we started that
process close to a year before we even fitin, like before I was actually divorced.
And then, so it's just like all ofthese, yeah, my life is completely
different than it was then.
And it's also hard to set up, like,especially if you have kids, you, I think
it's a little bit easier to say, likewhat do they need through the whole time?
(18:53):
But then once things start settlingin, you start co parenting the
other, things can even shift.
But that means that.
You go back to it then, right?
Go back to your purpose, see what youneed to shift, that sort of stuff.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
I think so.
Let's talk about another myth, one that Ifeel like came up a lot, I hear also a lot
that men will always have to pay spousalsupport and child support, and we get
(19:17):
to pick if we get to pay child support.
So how does support actually work?
So let's take them in inverse order.
You do not get to pickif you pay child support.
I have had many people come into meat the beginning and either one says,
I'm not paying child support, or theyboth will say, Oh, we don't, we don't
want to do that child support thing.
(19:38):
The court wants you to do child support.
And every state, every statehas a law on child support.
And it's a formula and you plug yournumbers into the formula and to deviate
from the formula, you need to have areally good reason because I mean, when
you think about it, it's there to ensurethe standard of living for the kids.
(20:01):
It's only there based onfood, shelter and clothing.
So it's not so the kid can go tospace camp or vacation in Paris.
It's really set to make surethere's a formula that says.
Going between these two households,this child is going to at least
be taken care of with basic needs.
(20:21):
So to, to say you're not paying itis In my mind, kind of a waste of
time because the reality check is thegovernment, our laws say wherever you
live, because divorce law varies wildlyfrom state to state and jurisdiction to
jurisdiction, but child support, whilethe formulas differ, it exists everywhere.
(20:46):
So it's not an opt in situation.
You have to pay child support.
All right.
Check.
What about Yeah, in most statesor all states child support.
There are child support rulesin all states all states.
Okay, alimony maintenance orspousal support is an entirely
different animal but child support.
There are there are rules in all states.
(21:08):
They use different formulas.
But it exists.
Yeah.
So then when it comes to spousal support,I think that it is important, right?
To talk to an attorney or somebodyin your state for how that works.
Like if you were the one asking fora divorce, if you're the one not,
you know, depending on salaries,if you work from home, you know,
all of those factors, right?
And if there are formulas, if there aren'tformulas, what the tendency has been in
(21:32):
10 years ago is not what is happening now.
People try to figure out a wayto sometimes, you know, how
can I get out of paying it?
How can I get around it?
And I think that's a costly mindsetbecause they can spend as much in the
court, trying to get around payingsome kind of alimony or spousal
(21:54):
support as they would to help.
And the reason for spousal support, therecan be many reasons, you know, someone
has been at home for decades and can'tstep right back into the workforce, then
there's a need to either get new training.
So you're able to earn a living orget support if you haven't been the
(22:16):
earner and the other person is able to.
support you.
There are a lot of differentways to look at it.
Different states have formulas.
I came from Illinois, which has a formula.
You plug in incomes andduration of marriage.
It says, here's your supportunless you're high income earner,
and then you can deviate fromthat, but you can't deviate down.
(22:37):
I now live in Tennessee.
There's not a formula.
There are just differenttypes of spousal support.
So you can kind of go well based onwhat seems to be going on in the courts.
This is what it might look like.
And then there are other states,Texas might be an example where they
tend not to award much maintenancein relation to other jurisdictions.
(23:02):
So it really depends.
So good to know what your jurisdictionoffers and ask all those questions.
Yeah.
And that can help set expectations.
And the other thing you said was,you know, the man always pays.
No, they don't.
It's really income basedversus gender based.
Yeah.
So usually.
(23:24):
If there is a formula, it's goingto be a percentage of the higher
income earner, less a percentage ofthe lower income earner take into
account the duration of the marriage.
And that is your number.
If there's not, then we're going tolook at like, what is the Disadvantaged
or economically disadvantaged spouse.
What's, what's theirlife going to look like?
(23:45):
What do they need to have adecent standard of living?
If they're really high income earners,then the court might want them to
maintain their standard of living.
So that's kind of the backdrop where, youknow, if someone is earning seven figures.
And they're used to living that lifestyleand they've been married for a long time.
They're much more likely to beawarded alimony or spousal support.
(24:07):
That's going to keep them in theway they've become accustomed rather
than say, no, you need to go work.
I used to say bed, bath and beyond, butthey're no longer around, you know, you
need to go work target and that, thatis how your life is going to unfold.
So
I guess the caution there is just get it.
It's based on income.
Not gender.
(24:28):
And you need to understand how yourparticular jurisdiction treats.
alimony in order to know whatmight happen if you go to court.
If we're sticking on this conversationabout finances, I think one of the
things that we hear a lot is that divorcereally costs a ton of money, right?
So you're going to now bepaying for two mortgages.
(24:50):
Some people, somebody ishaving to pay child support.
Somebody is paying, you know, alimonypotentially, you know, whatever, all
of those expenses that go into it.
But does divorce haveto be super expensive?
And like, how do you, isthere a way to avoid that?
You know, what do you, Well, I think thereare two ways to look at the expenses.
There are the expenses of goingthrough the divorce itself.
And then there are the expensesof supporting two households as
(25:15):
you move into what's next in life.
Divorce costs can rangeanywhere from, you know, 199.
Or court filing fees or, youknow, DIY paperwork to hundreds of
thousands or even millions of dollars,depending on people's net worth.
(25:37):
So the cost of divorce itself is driven,I think, a lot by net worth and profit.
The process that you're using, so ifyou're mediating, it's probably and
mediating in that not a court orderedmediation, but a really, you've signed
up with the mediator and that's how youwant to come to your agreement mediation.
(26:00):
That's going to cost less probablythan the collaborative process
where you have more professionalsinvolved, but it's still out of court.
You're making your own calendar.
You're figuring out your ownschedule, your own goals and whatnot.
If you're litigating.
You're, you're kind of turning it over.
You're, you're, you're stillthe one who says I accept her.
(26:21):
I don't accept, but you'redoing it in the court system.
Again, the attorney I talked toyesterday, she said, it's going to be 18
months before you're even on a docket.
And then I spoke to someone else recentlywho said, yeah, in our area, you're
going to get scheduled in nine months,but you're going to get continued
because something is going to come up.
So we just look at it.
Like it's probably your third timeyou're scheduled that you're actually
(26:44):
going to be heard for the first time.
Yeah.
Oh, during all those processes,there's still a lot of behind
the scenes stuff going on.
There's discovery you're paying for that.
Attorneys are having conferences,you're conferencing with your attorneys.
There might be other professionals.
There's unless you really put abudget to it, it costs what it costs.
(27:06):
The average, I think is around 17, 18, 000right now, but that's going to include the
expenses all the way down to the DIY ones.
Do it yourself, kitchentable kind of divorce.
Yeah.
And then the after divorce, I mean,that's a really good question.
It just depends.
(27:26):
I don't think there's ananswer I have for that.
It depends on the situation.
If they're high earners, there might justbe a little blip in splitting households.
If one person was the primary breadwinnerand they didn't make a lot of money
and the other person stayed home.
There's going to be a serious hiton the standard of living for that
household and anywhere in between.
(27:48):
Yeah.
You have to be prepared for that asyou're going through the process.
And how, like, it's part ofwhat the way life changes as
you're going through divorce.
Right.
Right.
And what I find, I go through myclients, we go through projecting
their expenses post divorce.
So they know what they can live on.
They know what a minimalstandard of living is.
And what I find is when they're justtalking vague numbers, the person who will
(28:12):
be paying support or helping reestablishthe person who earns less, they're
much less likely to feel good about.
Giving that, then if you'reable to say like, look, this is
how they're going to be living.
This is our budget.
These are their expenses or theirmoney worksheet, whatever we call it.
And they can look at it and go.
Wow.
(28:33):
You know, they, they are not takingextravagant vacations based on this.
They are living, you know, they mightgo to a movie or have some money in
for going out, but they're not spendinga ton of money than the other person
is much more able to empathize andfeel okay about paying that support.
It's putting it in context.
(28:53):
Yeah.
Instead of just like where to getthat number, it seems like a lot.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And I feel like as we talk throughthis, I, I know that there's so
many different factors, right?
So we're talking a little bit about,like, how do you want the process to
be talking about support and finances?
Like this is, you know, going in depthof these, but I appreciate the, the way
(29:14):
you're talking about how to structureit for yourself and going back to your
purpose and like what each of these means.
And, I think one of the other questions,like, on the next level of that is that
one of the things that comes up or amyth that comes up is that you can't
date while you're going through divorce.
And I think one of the things, especiallyin queer divorce there's higher
levels of people who are living inpolyamorous communities or people who
(29:37):
are, or maybe are leaving their They'restraight marriage for queer mar a queer
relationship or you know, like there'slots of different factors that play into
why that divorce might be happening.
And so there's a lot of messmixed messages about that.
So like, can we date during divorce?
How do we know if we can,like, how does that all go?
This really good question andthere's no one answer again.
(30:00):
So much of it depends on where you live.
And what the views andlaws are where you live.
In some places they just don't care.
Like, so we're the backdrop for allof this is what would happen in court.
You're getting divorced.
They're really busy systems as isevidenced by how long it takes to go
(30:21):
through the system and get divorced.
They don't care who is dating whom,what gender or sexual identity they are.
When they start, like,they just don't care.
Let's process this divorce and moveon to the next one because there
are hundreds lined up behind you.
There are other states where that iscause and that can severely impact
(30:45):
whether you get alimony or not,whether you have to pay alimony or not.
So you really have to knowwhat's going on where you live
in order to make that decision.
And if you make the decision, youknow, you're getting divorced and
you make the decision to date.
and you're in a place where you wouldhave been getting alimony and it can be
(31:09):
held against you, then you, you couldlose that support because you did.
It's always less messy tonot date, but life is messy.
Yeah.
Are there situations wherethe spouse can bring it up?
Like, I know, I think I'm inMichigan and we kind of have a no
default, no fault divorce process.
(31:31):
So in my state, likely it wouldn't matterif, you know, if you were dating somebody,
but there could be a case, could there bea case where I guess when custody comes
up, if you don't have a good connectionwith your spouse, where they could use it
against you, but that would be like, Waydown the line, if you're in court, right?
Like what's the custody, it's going todepend on the nature of the relationship
(31:56):
and the person, the relationship is.
with most likely.
So if, if someone is dating someone andcustody is in question because of whom
they're dating, it's more likely to bebecause they have a criminal record.
They do drugs.
Like there's some, there arepedophile, you know, there's some
(32:18):
danger to the child in that situation.
They're violent.
You know, it's more likely to be thatthat's going to come into play with
custody than There's just anothersignificant other in the picture, you
know, there, there's more likely thereneeds to be a reason to question custody
(32:40):
and more and more the trend in custody is5050 the, you know, every other weekend
for the, the dad is, is, you know, Ifit's not gone, it's certainly going.
Yeah.
And I think as you're, as you're sayingthat too, I'm thinking that there's
really, the issue is that the court hasto be a good reason for something, right?
(33:02):
The court, if you're in litigation,if you're going through the process,
the court's not going to really, youknow, unless there's a legal standard
in your community, like you can'tdate or You can't leave for another
spouse or infidelity or whatever unlessthere's a big issue for the kids or
a big issue for you, it's not evengoing to be brought to the table as
something that's important or considered.
In the process, if it's a safety issue,and we are just now starting to see if
(33:28):
it's a parental alienation issue, whichhasn't, it can be a touchy subject.
Some people don't even believe in it.
Others think it's rampant, but it'sstarting to be addressed by the
courts in a way it hasn't been before.
And that is not necessarily physicalsafety for the child, but it is
(33:50):
undermining the relationship withthe other parents and courts are
starting to hear more about that.
Yeah.
Can you explain that a little bit more?
What is parental alienation?
Parental alienation is where oneparent undermines the relationship
of the child with the other parentand they do it purposefully and it
(34:14):
causes a significant amount of damage.
And it's, it's hard to spot becauseit doesn't have bruises, you know, but
it might be that the child now doesn'twant to go see the other parent anymore.
They don't want to have theirparenting time with them.
Or when they do, they startmaking comments and that parent is
like, where is that coming from?
(34:35):
And it might be there,you know, it's derogatory.
So that means when the parent whois doing the alienating is spending
time with the child, they're sayingthings like, you know, Oh, you
know, your mother never loved you.
She didn't want to have you.
She's so glad not to have youaround or, you know, she's a cheat.
She, whatever.
(34:56):
It's planting seeds of bad thingsthat can be really impressionable.
And then when the child goes tomom's house and is like, you cheated.
Mom might be like, I have noidea what you're talking about.
And maybe didn't cheat.
Right.
And that's where the alienation comes in.
It's like a campaign to alienate, toturn the child against the other parent.
(35:21):
Right.
And so that's put in place to supportpeople who are going through maybe
domestic violence struggles oremotional abuse issues with, with the
person that they're divorcing, right?
There might've been noneof that with a parent.
It's played out with a child, right?
So obviously they have a grudge.
But they might not, the one who's doingit, the parent who's doing it, they
might not even recognize that theyjust might not be thinking they might
(35:44):
be hurt and angry and they might feellike they need the child in their side.
And they're not being reallycognizant of what they're doing.
They're just saying what they're saying.
So sometimes it can come outof, it can come as a surprise.
Other times not, but it doesn't, it mightbe a new behavior, like something that
(36:06):
didn't happen in the marriage at all.
But now that they're divorced,that parent is like, Oh, I see the
opportunity to have this, this oneon my side or these kids on my side.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that sometimes what I've beenhearing from others in the podcast and
from other people who are in the QueerDivorce Club group is that sometimes
that can happen where maybe the personthat was being left or the person, the
(36:29):
parent is having an emotional struggleafterwards and they're putting it
on the kid unintentionally, right.
Or the kid is seeing that from them,you know, yeah, it's hard balance to, to
find if you're in a really emotionallyunstable space following divorce.
It is, and there's kind of a differencethere too, where a lot of, it can occur
(36:50):
before the divorce, but a lot of thatplays out after the divorce, where
more of the safety and custody issuestend to play out during the divorce.
Not that they can't happen after,but a lot of that happens before.
And that's when they might get aguardian ad litem involved, who's
going to represent the kids andfigure out what is in their best
interest going through this process.
(37:11):
Okay.
And in the process we should remembertoo that most states have the
ability after you've put your custodyagreement in place to have a review
of that custody agreement, right?
I know in Michigan it's every three yearsit automatically happens for both child
support and for your custody agreement.
I think child support is automatic andyou can also bring then the custody
(37:33):
changes up at that time but otherstates have more frequent options too.
Yep and sometimes peopleelect a more frequent review.
You know, I've had people write uptheir agreements when they have very
young children that they're going toreview them every three or six months.
Because And they're doing it thoughtfullybecause the needs of the child may change
significantly from a one year old toeven a three year old or four year old.
(37:57):
So even if they're changing theirparenting schedule or what have
you, they're looking at it moreconsistently until the child is older.
Yeah, it's interesting to thinkabout putting that stuff in place
to be able to check back on it.
I don't think that I thought aboutthat as I was going through my process
that there's these markers that Icould change what our agreement was.
That if we actually put them inplace to be intentional about
(38:19):
shifting it for the kids or shiftingit based on our life agreement.
I think some of that'sin there, but not a lot.
Mm hmm.
And most states, in myexperience, don't have that.
I do an addendum with the folks I workwith because the state agreements.
tend to be who has decision makingpower and what the schedule is and
what child support is going to be.
(38:40):
And we talk a lot more about thequalitative things that pop up
that cause bumps in co parenting,like disciplining before, between
households or communications ortattoos or what have you, just how
are you going to treat this religion?
What if they want to go toa regular church group and
(39:02):
someone turns into an atheist?
How are you going to handle it?
So it's more just the walking downthe road of how do you want to handle
these things when they come up?
And those, yeah, that feels reallysecure to me to think about.
Like if you're on the page of talkingand maybe things are contentious right
away at the divorce and you don'tnecessarily know what's going to happen
in three to six months and kids changeas they grow in so many different ways
and your life's splitting up, you don'tknow what it's going to look like.
(39:25):
So having some of those safeguards inplace seems like that can be really good.
Yeah, you don't know.
And then people go on and have othersignificant others and new families
and that all impacts it again.
So there's a lot to navigate.
Yeah, so much.
So how do we leave people with, we'relike, there's all these things that you
have to think about, there's so much,what would you leave our listeners
(39:46):
with if you said like, what's themost important thing to think about
as you're navigating this process?
Stay centered on where you are and whatis best for you in the moment you're in.
And keep checking back in on that.
Just keep checking back in on it.
(40:07):
Look at where you'regetting your information.
You know, are you goingto sources like this?
You said at the beginning, peopleare becoming informed just simply
because they're tuning into this.
They're looking for information, butyou are also vetting the people that
you're presenting, you're not, you know,hauling someone in off the street and
(40:29):
say, and let's come chat about this.
When you're getting your informationor your advice from Facebook or some
other social media connection, youmight not even know who's posting
and telling you what to do, butI've seen posts around here where
someone will ask a divorce questionand they'll get a hundred responses.
(40:51):
They don't even know who thepeople are responding to them.
Be very careful about taking,and a lot of it, when I read
through it, it's just wrong.
It, don't take legal advice or getlegal advice or financial advice or
coaching advice, parenting adviceto, to a degree, I suppose from an
unknown on Facebook, vet your sources.
(41:11):
Yeah.
So know where you are and what youwant and what's important to you now.
And it's okay if what's important toyou is to take a break and step away.
Maybe that's what you need.
Or it's okay if what's important is to,you know, concentrate on your career
or what your new vocation will be.
It's okay if just check in withyou and what you need and then
(41:33):
make sure you're getting advicefrom good, reliable resource.
Not from some unknown, I don't know, yeah,so it's good to share stories and get
support, but then double check if you're,when you're making decisions to make sure
it's right for your space, make sure thatyou have somebody that knows legally,
(41:56):
financially what is right in your, okay.
And you're staying in your situation.
And then go from there.
Yeah.
And I think I look at the differencebeing like you said, share stories.
That's beautiful.
You are not alone.
You are part of a community and acrew and you have support sharing
is one thing when someone istelling you, Oh no, you're wrong.
You have to do it this way.
(42:16):
That is not sharing.
That's telling.
And they might be telling like, I'll,I'll see people, for example, here
say, Oh no, you don't understand.
It's a 50 50 state, and no matter what youdo, everything will be divided equally.
Well, we're not a 50 50 state, we'rean equitable distribution state.
Whole nother story there, so it's wrong.
So, be careful about what you takeas fact, or the, you know, he's
(42:43):
gotta pay you spousal support oralimony for, you know, 20 years.
Well, no.
Yeah.
So people can start counting on that.
Like, no, I heard that you have to pay me.
And maybe the answer is yes.
Right.
But everybody has an opinion aboutwhat you should do in your divorce.
(43:04):
Yeah, and I guess that's the, that'sthe third thing, who you surround
yourself with makes a big difference.
And if you surround yourself with,you know, people who have a negative
outlook or are bitter or angry,that's, that's the space that
you're allowing yourself to be in.
And if you surround yourself withpeople who are going to help you move
(43:24):
forward and support you and empoweryou, then that's the space you'll be in.
I love that.
I love that.
Such good advice.
I really appreciate you being here with ustoday and talking through all these myths
and there's, you have so much information.
So where can people go to findout more of What you have.
So a couple things.
My website is bridgingdivorce solutions.com.
(43:47):
And there are blog posts andthings like that on the website.
I have a book on Amazon and that's,oh shit, I'm getting divorced.
The guide to Keeping Your Dignityand Dollars, which started out
as How to Divorce with Dignityand Grace, and everyone was like,
that's not what it feels like.
. I wish that I'm getting divorced.
So we changed the name.
And then with that, sometimes folks do notwant to order that on Amazon because they
(44:11):
don't want it to show on a joint account.
So they can just contact theoffice and we can either send
it electronically or physically.
Awesome.
That is a good a good thing.
There's these little things that happenin divorce that you don't always think.
Like I also was like sharingan Amazon account and needed to
like, not, you know, I don't know.
It's the weird things theyhave to split up in your life
that you don't think about.
I love that you have a solution for that.
(44:34):
Yeah.
And there's a follow up listthat we give our clients.
That's, you know, often we look at the dayyour divorce is final, you're done and you
still have a lot of work to do afterwards.
Dang it.
Oh shit.
I got more to do.
It's important.
It's true.
All right.
Thank you, Brenda.
I really appreciate it.
(44:55):
I appreciate you having me to talk.
Thank you.
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