September 5, 2024 • 55 mins
In this episode of the Queer Divorce Club, Chrissy shares her personal journey through divorce, from the initial shock and emotional turmoil to co-parenting and rebuilding her life. She discusses the process of choosing mediation, the importance of community support, and the strategies that helped her cope. Chrissy reflects on the ongoing nature of personal growth and the value of viewing life changes as opportunities rather than setbacks. She also offers advice for those just starting their own divorce journey, emphasizing resilience, self-compassion, and the power of community.
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(00:02):
Hi, Chrissy.
Welcome to the Queer Divorce Club.
Thanks for having me.
I'm really excited.
I'm really looking forward to todaybecause we've had a few of these, but
you're really getting to talk about yourstory and I'm excited for you to share
the process that you went through in yourdivorce and how you're feeling today.
And I think our listeners will getsome really good stuff out of it.
Yeah, I hope so.
I was just saying to you before we hitthe record that I wish something like
(00:25):
this had existed or it did and I hadfound it sooner because I think divorces
can be so destabilizing and creatingthis little community is, is a real gift.
So I'm glad to be here.
Well, thank you forbeing a part of it today.
To get us started, can you giveus a little glimpse of, like, just
where you are today in your life?
Yeah so I'm, I'm about five years outfrom my divorce, which sometimes it feels
(00:49):
like it was 20 years ago, and sometimesit feels like it was four minutes ago.
It really kind of depends on the day.
I, since that time, have also gonethrough a lot of other transitions.
I got a new job.
In the pandemic, I lost my job.
I worked for myself.
So just kind of getting my careera little bit stabilized as well.
And in the mid midst of co parenting,teens and preteens, which feels very
(01:14):
much a big part of my life right now.
Yeah, those teenagers take over.
Yeah, they really do.
Yeah, they really do.
Yeah, so you've gonethrough tons of transitions.
So I'm excited.
Let's talk about them.
Can you just explain the basics of likehow your divorce process got started
(01:34):
and what that felt like for you?
I in prep for this kind of went back andjust read some journals from that time
of my life, which was, which was helpful.
So I, Got divorced.
I mean, I think the decision and thewhole process of it came to a head pretty
close to Christmas 2018, which I don'trecommend doing that near a holiday.
(01:57):
It's not amazing.
And I would say that in someways it happened really fast.
In other ways, probably there were signs.
I'm sure anyone who's beendivorced, it's like not a super
simple story to make sense
of, but it was pretty,you know, Sudden and
fast and a little bit of a shockto myself, to the kids, to the
(02:20):
whole kind of family system.
And so the process of getting divorced of,of kind of like that initial conversation
to like legally divorce was about a year.
So I got legally divorced from my exwife, like the following December of
20, 19 then a pandemic in 2020, so itwas just a real lot of things happening
(02:43):
at once, but that kind of timeline is,is kind of where my divorce happened.
And you so you said you're like startedthat legal process a year after you.
Separated.
Is that correct?
Well, we started the legalprocess probably months.
I feel like there was a little bitcloudy, but when you have kids, you
need to like, wait a certain amount oftime where you can like, sign the paper.
(03:06):
We started, we ended up doing mediationwhich I know we can talk about that.
And so we started that processprobably six months, maybe even
sooner from that initial conversation.
And then we had to like, wait togo to the, like, official signing
of the papers until a year later.
Yeah.
Each state has a different process,but I know in Michigan, we have a
(03:27):
six month waiting period if you havekids and it's shorter if you don't.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
There's all of those legalese.
Yeah.
I was so overwhelmed at that point.
I, that was like the least of thethings on my mind was like the
legal component of it, but yeah.
Yeah.
How did you choose the mediationprocess that you went through?
Yeah.
I mean, I think from my experience, Imean, so there's like the whole emotional
(03:50):
family stuff I know we'll get into.
And then the legal element and thefinancial element and the custody
element of it all creates, or createdat least for me, a ton of stress.
And there's so much uncertainty in thatof, you know, how do you split it all up?
And is your ex going to be fair?
And you're kind of thinking of yourex as your partner, but they're not.
(04:11):
And so, and then you haveall these people around you.
Kind of trying to protect you feeding,feeding you fear, you know, like,
what if, what if this, and what ifthat, and what if this, and again,
I was so emotionally upended thatI truly could not think straight.
(04:31):
But I did not want to be, I didnot want to spend a lot of money.
And I felt like all I had heard from otherpeople I knew was like, the lawyers just,
you know, that adds another fee to youand you might as well spend that money.
Keeping it within you.
And, and so actually like probably oneof the most helpful things I did was one
of the friends who was kind of like, yougotta like Chrissy, you're not, you're
(04:53):
not like, it's cute that you think yourex might be fair, but like, what if
she isn't, and it would be helpful toknow, so I went to she knew a lawyer who
went out to like, go to drink with me,this man, I've never seen him before.
I've never seen him since.
I don't even know his name and Ican barely, I can barely remember
what he looks like, but God lovehim because I'll never forget this.
(05:14):
We were sitting down and I was like,you know, how does divorce work?
And he's like, look, it's pretty much.
a math equation.
You know, you take this, you timesthat, you divide this, that determines
custody, you do this, you do that,and it doesn't matter if there was an
affair, it doesn't matter if there wasabuse, I mean it's pretty cut and dry.
(05:36):
And so, and I said, well, then whywould anybody spend money on a lawyer?
And he said, more people shouldask themselves that question.
He was a divorce attorney until I waslike, Roger that, you know, and he was
like, look, if you're trying to get isit alimony or like, you know, spousal,
whatever that, you know, I'm like, Idon't think we have a case for that.
(05:58):
We're both professional.
We both have careers.
And so I was, I don't know, that just likehit me over the head of like, look, I'm
not looking to take anything from you.
That's not, you know, so my ex and Iwere having enough conversations that I
think we both had enough still trust ofone another there, even in a real time
(06:20):
of uncertainty that this is a really,this is a good human being, air quotes.
And.
They're not gonna try andtake something from me.
That's not theirs.
And so we both decided we were going totry mediation, knowing that if at any
point either of us felt like a growingfear that it wasn't going to play out
(06:41):
that way, then we would just get lawyers.
And that process could not havebeen, we, we went to the mediation
essentially with everything decided.
I don't actually even know wepaid the mediator to do, you know,
we maybe had a couple things.
We had the kids schedule.
She, she did a little math thatwe had to figure out and we
(07:03):
were in and out like in an hour.
Nice.
Yeah.
Nice.
Yeah.
That sounds ideal.
I know.
I, and I, I recognize that noteverybody has the privilege of
working with an ex that they cansay, hey, Whatever happens about us
not having a romantic relationship.
(07:26):
This is still a human being thatI've been with for 10 years, for
15 that was built on a friendship.
Can we kind of find the core of that?
And it was awkward.
I mean, please not do not picturemy ex and I like, Hey, just here
to talk about who gets the minivan.
You know, it was awkward.
It was not fun.
It was emotionally draining.
(07:47):
But I was I was also so financiallyscared that wasting money didn't
feel like a really great idea.
Yeah.
So I was really gratefulfor that component of it.
Yeah.
So you took care of yourself and theparts that you felt were like really
important in that moment for you.
I tried, you know, I really triedand I really tried to, you know, like
(08:07):
I said, I had friends and family,I think that were lovingly Trying
to protect me and I couldn't get upfrom down at that point of like, you
know, I was like, just in my own like,washing machine of like, I trust her.
What did she just takeon my whole retirement?
I would have to have, you know, all thewhat ifs, you know, it's like, not only
is your own grade feeding them to you.
(08:29):
In my experience, and I think this istrue of a lot of people, people are
trying to be helpful and they're tryingto, it's like you're not in a place
to think clearly, which I was not.
And so I think just trying tonavigate all that was a big part of
the mediation versus divorce lawyer.
I had no questions about parentalrights or anything like that.
Again, another gift and privilege.
So it really worked for us.
(08:51):
And if you can get to that place withyour ex, I like can't recommend it,
especially if there's kids involved,you know, like I recommend it.
I, I, I just, yeah, I'm sograteful for that lawyer.
And that like a little one,the only lawyer I ever talked
to and it was super helpful.
Yeah.
I feel like when I went throughthe process too, we ended up using
(09:12):
attorneys after we tried to do it alone.
And then I looked for a mediator, butcouldn't really find accessible services.
And then the more and more we starthaving these conversations, I'm
like, they're out there everywhere.
Like everybody shouldbe using these services.
I think our mediationcost us, and I'm not.
I'm not kidding, 150.
What?
I could be totally wrong, soYeah, but it's less than 8, 000.
(09:35):
Oh, yes.
It was, it was, it was I should giveyou the Grand Rapids place in case
people come to you for that becauseit was a really great experience.
The woman was amazing.
Again, I don't remember her name.
Can't remember what she looked like.
It was an emotional time.
Yes, I remember the feltexperience of that day.
(09:55):
And it was, it was really.
Lovely.
If you can look back during that timeand you just talk, you've mentioned
the emotional support quite a bit,and it sounds like you weren't
sure exactly in those exact momentswho to connect to or whatever.
If you could look back at Chrissy inthat moment, what would you tell her?
Like, who should you connect with?
What should you say to these people?
You know, what would you tell her?
(10:16):
Yeah, a lot of it, I think I endedup finding, you know, I think
when I, when I go backto that state, I was.
It's really hard to untangle forme what I was so sad and whatever
insert all the feelings and emotionsof the not positive side of the
feelings wheel were all flooding meand it's really hard to untangle.
(10:40):
Are you sad about theend of this relationship?
Are you sad about the end of the routine?
You know, you're 40 years old.
You didn't picture.
This mega shift happening where yourfriends and your routine and your
family dinners are all gone in a day.
You know, you don't get to see your kids.
(11:03):
all the time.
Are you sad about that?
And so the overwhelm for meof just being totally flooded.
I mean, I could not eat.
I lost 30 pounds.
I could not sleep.
I could not think I could not work.
If I hadn't been working whereI had worked for 15 years, I
would have for sure been fired.
They should have fired me.
And so I think that, and it felt likeit was never going to not feel that way.
(11:26):
It felt like.
I guess the best of my life is behind me.
This is you now.
And, and, you know, and I could kindof touch that that might not be true,
but then at FUMA, I would get pulledright back into bed, you know, just like
calling my mom, like I'm hungry, sad andtired, but I can't eat and I can't work.
(11:48):
And, and so I think some of the thingsthat I found by accident, you know, that
I would maybe tell myself or other people.
Therapy obviously was really helpful.
I was already in therapy at the time,but I doubled up and was going a lot.
I was asking for help, like a
(12:09):
animal, like just, I had friends here.
I, I, at a year later, I sent thisemail out to everybody who helped me.
And I had a little side email for likehusbands of the, Of the support club who
just like lent their wives to me, youknow, at all hours of the day families,
whose family dinners I was just joining,I really missed, I could almost like,
(12:31):
I just missed so much like family.
And so I would just like go to friendshouses for like family dinners and
just like really borrow their kids.
Like, I just like, I didn't have akitchen table in my house because that
was one of the things that I just.
Give to her.
And so I didn't have a kitchen tablein my house for like a long time.
(12:53):
I don't know.
I was both not functioning and I thinkgetting a kitchen table probably resented.
So I think like reaching out for help wasjust a thing I really had to get good at.
And there were so many people, likepeople that I expected to love me.
But then all these other people, like whoI was like, you're just like a person at
the gym who yes, I have a relationshipwith but, you know, I think I really
(13:19):
leaned on actually building a whole newcommunity and strengthening one that
existed which has been a really greatlife skill to have as you navigate.
Spoiler alert, unfortunately,you continue to navigate other
changes after you get divorced.
No, I'm really pissed about that.
That's like my new reflection.
(13:39):
But I think I built some muscle there.
I took a mindfulness class.
I took an eight week mindfulnessclass and That was incredibly
useful in terms of just skills,self compassion and mindfulness.
There was a, a phrase on that classthat really unhooked me of pain
(13:59):
times resistance equals suffering.
Mm hmm.
And I just, when I saw that Taraon the screen, I was like I'm, I'm,
I'm resisting, like, I am resistingthis, I just felt like if, if this
wasn't happening or if I knew exactlywhy this happening or if only this
would happen, then I would be happy.
Yeah.
You know, and I like just softenedmy grip on all the angst I was in.
(14:29):
Adding to the experience, just,I didn't let go of it, but I
softened it and that made thepain a little bit more manageable.
And that actually was a huge turning pointin my own suffering of the experience.
So, yeah.
I was just thinking about, yeah,just thinking about that for, I just
need to sit in that for a second.
(14:49):
Yeah.
I really.
I also have connected a lot tothis idea of releasing myself from
the resistance and part of that,like as you said, asking for help.
I think one of the things I resisted aton was like letting myself be needing
help and letting myself ask for it.
And I think that thatcomes up quite a bit.
So I'm hoping that you can say you'vealready, I could see it in you that
(15:12):
the felt experience was once you didask for help, you got received help.
And so it didn't seem.
Like that was stressful, right?
That felt good.
Yeah.
And I was, you know, I think a better wayto say what actually happened is that I
was so not functioning that I got help.
(15:36):
I just received, people descended on me.
And the gift of that is that nowwhen I need help, When I believe
in trust, it will be there.
And I asked for it.
So like, it would be giving past Chrissya little bit too much credit that
she was like, Hey, I need help more.
Like people were looking at me like, girl,you're not functioning and you need help.
(16:00):
And they really showed up for me ina way that like, That was a, that was
like, I, I was actively hovering abovethe experience a little bit and was
like, There are so many gifts of griefand there are so many beautiful pieces
of what I can't like feel it but I seeit and I'm making a mental note of it
(16:23):
and when I can get myself unburied, holyshit, I'm gonna tell everybody that like
in the darkest corners of the experiencesthat life gives you, there's also the
most love, the most connection, themost beautiful pieces of life, the most
pieces of growth and transformation.
I couldn't like Like, but I waslike, I see it, I see it, I see it.
(16:45):
Wow.
You know, and when I did pop my, hemyself back up and started to shift, I
was like, almost honestly, I was almostlike . And I'm so sad 'cause I can't,
I can't get in touch with it right now.
'cause now I have new,painful experiences.
But I was like.
Endorphin rush.
It was like on the otherside of it was like
(17:09):
just energy and transformationand joy and presence and dopamine
and, and all of these things.
And, and I felt that it,it, I didn't, I touched it.
I observed it when I was in the kind ofvalley of it, but on the other side I
was like, I mean, I lost my job and justdecided I was gonna work for myself.
In 2020 April.
(17:31):
Yeah.
That's delusional.
That's like borderlinedelusional and it worked.
That's how unstoppable I felt, you know,like I would never do that now, but I
think because I was on that come up on theother side, it was, it was really special.
You feel like there's this moment when,so I'm thinking about, we talk about this
(17:53):
messy middle a lot and it sounds like thatwas that space for you before you decided
like, Okay, the middle is done and I'mready to move forward and I can look back
in my experience and I can totally feel ifI think back, I can feel in my body like
the moments when it was shifted, right?
And I can see the shift.
And for me, it was kind of gradual.
And over time, it was like,Oh, that shit felt really good.
And then I felt like crap.
(18:14):
And then I felt, is thatwhat I felt like for you?
What was the experience?
Yes.
And, you know, I think
There'd be moments, right, where so like,phase one, I felt like, you know, you're
just like, here I am, I'm divorced, I'min Grand Rapids, I'm gay, I have two kids,
I'm gay divorced, there was like the shamespiral of like, I just remember thinking
(18:37):
like, like so many people get divorced,like this should feel, this is not a big
deal, and then feeling like, The onlyperson who ever got divorced and like all
I could see was like it, you know I'venever had the experience of scrolling
through social media and feeling likethat makes me feel bad about my life I
don't usually do like a compare contrastBut I was like, I don't want to see your
(19:00):
fucking family on a vacation Like I reallyI don't want to see your anniversary.
I don't even want to seeyou I don't want to see you.
So I just like deleted social media.
Cause I could really sense that.
So there was like that phase andthen, and, and kind of like not
knowing what to do with my time.
Like I felt like on my stretcheswithout the kids, like, what do I do?
(19:23):
Like, what, who am I like, Iwas doing like puzzles at my.
Not kitchen table fold out.
I've never done a puzzle in my life.
I've never done one since you know I waslike puzzles are hard that I would just
like just weird shit, you know and thenthere'd be like a phase where i'm like,
oh like I could go to The beach on asaturday With my friend, I could go to
(19:45):
brunch, like I can do whatever I want.
So then I had a little phaseof like, oh, I have hobbies.
I have, I can, I can do things thatI haven't actually done in 20 or 15
years because I've been only parentingor only with this other person.
And then there'd be like anothervalley of like, Christmas is coming
up, like, or their birthdays, or,you know, or like, what will they
(20:09):
do when they projecting way out?
Like, what will they, what will Ido when they come home from college?
Will they, like, only come to 1 over out?
How will we, you know, like,and then I had a phase of like.
I'm going to go to Mexico bymyself and like, which is like,
totally out of character, youknow, so it was definitely like.
(20:31):
Trying to figure out and still who amI now that I don't have some of these
existing structures and sometimes that'sreally fun and sometimes that came with
a lot of sadness and sometimes it camewith confusion and that was my experience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm kind of in that.
The waves, the circles.
(20:53):
I love it.
Yeah.
Every time we talk to somebody on thepodcast or I talked to somebody about
divorce, they're like the emotionsand they're moving their hands around.
Sometimes they move them in waves.
Sometimes it's like, it's legit.
Not a straight line.
We just have to remember that.
And it's not a mountainwe're climbing either.
Nope.
Whatever experience you'rehaving, there's definitely.
Ups and downs and rounds.
(21:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Someone told me like when I was reallyin the, you know, they were just like,
everything's better in two weeks.
Everything's better in two weeks.
And then they were like,and then we revised it.
Like, everything's different in two weeks.
Everything's different.
And honestly, that has been true fora majority of the last several years
(21:35):
of like and I think that's what's Ohyeah, now we're in this phase of it.
Now we're in this phase of it.
Now we're in this phase of it.
And I would imagine there'll be anelement of that for the rest of my life.
You know, like.
I'm not from a divorced family andso I can get really caught up in
things like, yeah, like, what willthey do when they come from college
or will I not see them at home?
(21:56):
Will I be a grandma whose kidsdon't come all this, you know, weird
shit just pops into your brain.
And so it's like, yeah,everything's different.
One thing to know for sure is thatthis phase is not staying long.
And unfortunately, that's true aboutsome of the good phases, but it's also
always true about some of the toughphases and that's been a helpful muscle,
not just to navigate this part of life,but to just navigate life in general.
(22:20):
It's really easy to just get lulled intostatus quo, but status quo never stays
forever, for one reason or another.
And so kind of building upsome of this resilience around.
Resistance around awareness aroundunderstanding what really upsets you,
what really helps you when you're themost upset what that that has been a
gift of something this seismic happeningin my life, and it continues to be
(22:44):
something that I have to reflect on.
As I figure out how to be a human,navigating the human experience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was just thinking as you weresaying that, that we do have,
all of us have this, right?
Like as we get older, you know,nobody's life is the same.
And I think there's a lot of battles wecan make and talk about psychologically
that like midlife crises and things as weget older and we like grieve these phases.
(23:07):
And I think that.
The gift, like you were saying, isthat divorce gives you that chance to
do it at a younger age and you have todo it, like you don't have a choice.
So there's a ton of grief and a lotmore things you're experiencing,
but then as you go, you realizethat the goal is not to have a life.
That is just me as a single person or mein this new life, but that to have a life,
(23:32):
right, that you're choosing yourself,that you're giving yourself this chance.
And yeah, it sounds like you did that foryourself or you're learning how to do it.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm, you know, my therapist, I waslike, nope, we don't try we practice,
you know, and, and I'm practicing.
I'm trying.
I'm sorry.
I'm practicing some of the skills thatwere definitely required of me in that
(23:56):
phase that are required of me in smallerways in the day to day experience, right?
It's like, that pain timesresistance, you know, equation
really helped me in that big thing.
But it also helps me likeat an airport, right?
When I'm like, I'm pissed that Ihave a layover and it's delayed and
now I can't get where I'm going.
(24:17):
And it's like, okay, like, Oh,it looks like you're kind of, you
know, like I built some big musclesaround some of these things then.
And I, I think, you know, it's helpedme cultivate Then in smaller ways now I
really felt strongly early in the divorce.
I'm talking like within the firstthree weeks of realizing that this was
(24:37):
happening to me, that it was like mybrain in an instant, and I don't even
know why it did this, but it projectedout like a bitter, resentful, 65 year old
version of myself at my kid's wedding.
Just.
Bitter and then someone's like, whendid you guys get divorced and I had to
(24:58):
be like 40 years ago And look I'm stilltalking about it, you know, like and I
was like, I will not Be that and again,I don't know if my parents are divorced.
I don't know why my brain like fedme that message So and you know what
else isn't going to happen My kidsare not going to be navigating the
(25:20):
stress of a divorce on top of twoadults Who they feel hate each other.
It was like I read I didn't get througha parenting book on co parenting because
I was trying, but I was not functioning,but I did read like page 1, 2, and 3, and
one of the sentences that stuck with methen was like the, you know, it was, the
idea was like, The two people that yourkids love the most are their two parents.
(25:45):
And when they hear somebody talkingnegatively about their parent, they
actually absorb them about themselvesbecause you're too young to delineate.
Who am I separate from my parents?
You don't do that until you're twenties.
And so anything they hear about thatparent, they're hearing about themselves.
And so some of those things I think havehelped me honestly be a better person.
(26:08):
It's very easy to slip into
anger and frustration and why me andI've tried to untangle that and at
times I've been probably crossed myown boundaries and other times maybe
I did get resentful, but I've triedto kind of have a North Star there.
And I think, again, that NorthStar helps me in other areas of
(26:29):
my life in terms of regulating.
Yeah, I really like that idea of thisNorth Star, like as you were talking
to about being 65 and still mad at yourdad about the divorce and that feeling.
I mean, I in my world havevery much seen this happen.
Like my parents were divorced when Iwas, I think seven or eight and they
(26:50):
did not talk again until my wedding day.
Like they, it was just tumultuousand in between and they would fight
and just, I mean, that was 20 years.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Close to that they were just stuckin this and it seems like so bitter
and angry and oh, yeah Energy, right?
Yeah, and you don't wantyou're getting divorced Why no
(27:11):
matter if you chose it or not?
Why would you want that torule your life forever, right?
Like you gotta really gottawork through it, right?
And I to be totally honest and Ican remember thinking this because
people you know People try to praiseyou and tell you what you're doing.
You go.
Oh, you're doing such a great job blahblah blah and like Without the kids
as the impetus, I think I probablycould have become like a trash person.
(27:33):
Like I think I could have beenlike, like, I think I would have, I
don't know what I would have done.
It's impossible to know for sure, but Ithink I can say with a great degree of
certainty that The kids were a big impetusof, and now, you know, we're five years
out, and so at the time we were parentinga second grader and a sixth grader, and
(27:55):
now we're parenting a sophomore and asixth grader, and they're navigating
really difficult teen things, and I cannotimagine not being on the same page with
her, not communicating with her regularly.
Yeah.
Our kids would be so much worseoff and they would be able to
slip through all these cracks.
(28:15):
If they knew we were not talking,I mean, they, they, they know, like
they, and they love, they're so proudof the fact, you know, they handle it.
My daughter's like, I have, I havefriends who are not, whose parents
are divorced and they won't evenlook at each other when they exchange
and they won't, you know, and mydaughter's like really takes that in.
And my son, he's 16 and he's kind of like,The last thing I need is the two of you at
(28:39):
the same table because he knows it's us.
It's us for you and also us against you.
So like, you know, likewe are in lockstep.
So please don't think you can tellthat mom one thing and then come home
and not know that we talked about it.
And I, and the groundwork that I laideven naively, you know, like I said, I
think I probably I was figuring out how tohave boundaries with somebody that I had
(29:01):
been married to for almost a decade, youknow, so you're kind of figuring that out.
And when you date new people, theykind of point out like, Hey, you
know, and that was super helpful, but.
I think it's been nothing but good aswe've tried to figure out and she's been
amazing max and I think we're enteringa new phase of figure out who we are as
two people, knowing that these two kidsare leaking us for the rest of our life.
(29:24):
Yeah.
So yeah, it's made it it's madethe day to day just a lot less.
Honestly, I don't feel stressed ifI have to make a phone call to her.
It's like, it's nothing, you know?
Yeah.
That's a great spot to be able toget to, but it does take work, right?
It takes work from both of you.
It takes work for you.
Like you were saying, setting goodboundaries, it does take a lot of work.
I'll guess one plug.
(29:44):
Sorry.
I will say to us is, you know, we gotour kids therapist when we were going
through it and You know, they each havea different reaction to that, but that
therapist will sometimes have meetingswith me and my ex to guide us, you know,
so sometimes we'll go there and, andand we'll be like, Hey, you know, we're
approaching this teen thing and thisis really hard and here's our values.
(30:08):
And that's been immensely helpful in Andwe were, it's not even because we were
not on the same page, although I couldsee that way, that would be really useful.
But that's been an amazing resource for usto just provide a third party to help us.
Figure out, you know, how toapproach things with the kids.
Yeah.
We have that too.
Therapists for all three of our kiddosfeel like that space is it's also just
(30:32):
thinking about that, that each kidis so different as you go to, and you
have to like navigate with each oneindividually and it's not one solution.
And so you're right.
That is a very good support.
Yeah.
As you think about the last five yearsand in this new space, you're in what.
Are you really proud of?
(30:52):
I'm, I'm like, I am very proud ofthe whole last part of what we did.
I'm, I'm so proud of our co parenting.
It's only gotten better everyyear over the last five years.
I think it will onlycontinue to get better.
And I'm proud of that because Isee the impact it has on our kids.
(31:14):
I'm really proud of.
And again, I say I credit having childrenbe in this because I could see a trash
version of myself, but I didn't doanything in the process of the divorce.
That I'm not proud of, or that I'm like,that was really aggressively mean, or
(31:36):
that did not need to be said, or, I'mlike, really, and honestly, I don't even
know if I have a, I just was journalingthe other morning, and I'm like, has
the dust, like, fully settled on mydivorce, you know, like, in some ways,
I've, like, diluted myself into thinking,and in other ways, I'm still, like,
(31:58):
Processing it like I think that so I'mproud of the fact that everything I
did and the way that I conducted myselfthrough that experience is something that
I can point to of like Chrissy you'recapable of that and of that and of that
and like, I don't know that I knew Iwas and then I think the third thing
would be, I have really tried to use mydivorce As a real mirror to, Hey girl,
(32:29):
what are some things you want to work on?
You know, like this divorcecan be about a lot of things.
It can be about all the waysthat, you know, you're a victim.
It can be about all theways that you're a failure.
It can be whatever you want this to be.
It can be about, and I've really workedhard to try and better understanding
myself, you know, like why, you know,what was my ex's experience of me?
(32:53):
What did I hear?
What did I not hear?
What does that help me understandabout how I want to move through
relationships moving forward?
What does that help me understand about,you know, like, and that in that way,
like, I will, I think that the divorce.
And all of the ways that happened,which were not perfect and
has been like, honestly, oneof the best gifts of my life.
(33:13):
And
the degree to which I feel thatranges day to day, you know,
there's, there's still days whereI'm like, is this where I want to be?
I'm 44 years old.
Like, you know, like I thoughtI'd be settled, you know, like
there's some expectations in there.
(33:34):
There's some, but for the most part.
It has given me so many lessons andso many gifts and so many muscles
that I wasn't going to get it.
I don't think without a reallyseismic life change, unfortunately.
And so I'm really proudof the way that I've.
Try to live into that.
(33:54):
for sharing all those.
You have so much to be proud of.
Thanks.
It's a great side to be in.
Yeah.
And I'm, I'm still trying to learnthose lessons, you know, that's the,
that's the kind of bummer of it all.
It's just like, in my mind,I'm like, Oh, I'm divorced.
And now this happens.
And now I'm like this perfect person.
(34:16):
And isn't that great.
That has not been myexperience, unfortunately.
Yeah, unfortunately thosehang ups continue to exist.
Exactly, exactly.
Maybe I'm working to get betterat how I communicate about them.
Yeah.
What are a few things, just thinkingabout that, that you feel like you
could always use continued support on?
(34:38):
Oh, girl.
I think, I think one of them is
I can be, you know, one of thereasons that the divorce was so
hard for me is that I'm amazing atavoiding some of the feelings on the
feeling wheel that are not positive.
Like I, you know, I, whatever energyyou're absorbing through the screen is
(35:02):
probably the energy that is my gift.
And the, and the, and the, the,the Achilles heel of that is
that it sometimes keeps me from,it often keeps me from having.
conversations about things thatreally need to be discussed
and in any relationship.
And, you know, that type ofavoidance doesn't always serve me.
(35:25):
And, and I, I didn't, honestly, Ididn't, and still probably don't
fully understand the way thatimpacts other people around me.
I'm still trying to figureout how it impacts me.
But I think that element of, Avoidanceand, you know, avoidance attachment
gets in my way pretty regularly.
And so I think that's just goingto be a thing I work on and will
(35:47):
always show up in relationships.
I think my ability to communicate aboutthat and understand it and listen to it.
A partner, a kid, whoever that'simpacting is something that I've just
accepted is going to be part of what Ineed to continue to work on and trying
to get feel that because it feels likea total threat to my nervous system.
(36:09):
But I think.
I missed it in my marriage.
I don't think I fully understood it.
And I'm still trying to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Those attachment styles and trauma.
Yes.
For real.
And it's like the air you breathe, right?
So you're like, I might think I'm notavoiding something because it's relative
(36:33):
to my internal scale, but then someoneelse's internal scale and spectrum
is like way different than mine.
And so they're exposed to that.
Where are you?
And I'm like, I'm, aren'tI not, am I not here?
, , I thought I was here.
You know?
Mm-Hmm.
. They're like, you're not here, you know?
And mm-Hmm.
. My ability to apologize andtake responsibility, you know?
(36:53):
I think that's the thing I'm workingon, and I'll always continue to work on.
I'm really fast and.
And so all those things show up andthey're not going to, they're not going
to not show up just because I got adivorce and went to therapy a lot.
Right.
You're not going to fix it.
Sadly, yeah.
Yeah, that is the fucking likeworst thing about it is that
(37:16):
you can't actually fix it.
Like everything blows up in your divorceand you have all this stuff to heal.
And if you're doing like, there'sno right or wrong way, but.
If you take the divorce and youwant to move forward, especially
if you have kids, you're right.
You can't go back.
And like, sometimes you'llfalter and you're like, I
don't want to go back either.
But the shit of it is, isthat there's not an end.
(37:37):
Yeah.
And then it's opened up so much.
It's really a bummer.
I mean, I have to be honest with you,like, you know, into the point of like
the hills and valleys, it's like, I swearto God, and this is like so embarrassing,
but like for about two months ago,this was all I could talk about.
I was like, Oh my God,it just keeps coming.
Like it's just like, Ireally think, I didn't know.
(38:00):
I consciously thought this,but I really think I thought,
like, All these this big horrible thinghappened to you and then you do all
this work and then like you're gonnaget like a long break from life lifing
like and you just don't like and thenyou're like I don't want to do it again
(38:21):
like I do feel kind of whiny like Yep.
The one I had a couple years ago.
Oh my gosh.
I feel like, I think we need to createa new like stages of grief for when you
go through divorce to healing, becauseI also was like just a couple of weeks
ago, I had gotten back from a trip toMexico with my new partner and we're.
In the kitchen and I was just like,Oh, I'm so done with all that stuff.
(38:45):
Like, yeah, we just likestay in Mexico forever.
Yes.
Yeah.
So frustrating.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm really working on right now,
writing those waves alittle more skillfully.
Because I think I forget and it's likethe acceptance that like what's good
(39:10):
It's like both sides of the same coin.
So, so, and I was really obsessedabout one side of the coin, which is
like the bad will never last forever.
Yeah, like it just doesn't, right?
It just doesn't.
Anyone who's been, who's been throughsomething with significant grief,
once they are far enough along,they can recognize, Oh God, like I
(39:33):
thought, I thought I was going tofeel this way forever at some point.
And now here I am, and I'min a new relationship or I
have a new job or whatever.
But the other side is true thatlike whatever is good is also
always changing, which means thatit also will not stay forever.
And you're just kind of teeteringbetween those two sides of the coin.
(39:55):
From what I can tell forever, fromthe listeners out there who like
me didn't really quite get that.
I really need to tell you theshocking twist of the event,
but it's just constantly that.
And sometimes it's a chosen.
Flip of the coin.
And sometimes the coin comesfor you and you didn't pick it.
And sometimes it's small, sometimesit's medium, sometimes it's big.
(40:17):
And so all you really have controlover is your reaction to it, your
resistance to it, how you manage it, howyou take care of yourself through it.
And that's, I mean, it's, I feel like Isound really cheesy and cliche, but I'm
kind of like obsessed with this rightnow because I'm like Chrissy, like,
It's just going to keep happening, youknow, and, and so I'm trying to, this
(40:43):
is one of the latter stage, one of thestages of divorce, because I feel like
I've also been so frequently, like justlast week, I'm taking a writing class
and we were reflecting on our writingand how it shifted and all these things.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, like my goalin my writing was to explain the story of
how I became my authentic self, like howI became, how I like, yes, in this person.
And then all of a sudden I was like,That's not actually what's happening.
(41:06):
I'm going to be continuingbecoming, becoming forever.
This is what I wrote about in my journal.
I was like, you wanted a nicelittle bow to the end of this story.
Like, I think I thoughtabout writing a book too.
And like, Oh, here's this like reallybad, sad thing that happened to me.
And then I did these set ofthings to take care of and did it.
(41:27):
And I, and it's in this part is true.
I have been discovering edgesof myself and pieces of myself.
Self that either became dormant inmy marriage or I never had unlocked
yet, which has been amazing.
Right.
That is like the highest high of parts ofthe story, but there is no bow to any part
(41:48):
of our story because it just keeps going.
And, and, and that's like, Ithink I thought the same thing.
I was like a blister child for divorce.
I would, if you came to me for certainphases of this, like maybe two years
ago or a year ago, I've been like,girl, you're going to get a glow up.
You are going to become thebest version of yourself.
You are going to look back onthis and think that was the best.
(42:11):
And like, I do believe that,but now there's like a part of
my story that it's like, Girl,it's going to come for you again.
You're going to figure out more shit.
Like you're, you're going to have anotherlow, like the whole picture needs to be a
part of the story because otherwise we'relike lying to ourselves and other people
(42:31):
about, about what a divorce is or whatany part of any number of these changes.
So it sounds like, I mean, you and I feellike a little bit on the same page and the
destination is really trusting yourself,you know, stopping the resistance, like
you're saying, like feeling your emotions,like getting to know who you are, all of
those changes is the actual destination.
(42:52):
Not one specific you.
Yes.
Yes.
And on some days that feels sofucking fun and invigorating.
I'm, what am I, I'm watercoloring,coloring in my backyard.
I'm doing an energy reading.
I'm, you know, meditate.
I'm doing all these things.
And on another day, I'm like, am I goingto be trying to figure out how to not be
avoided for the rest of my fucking life?
(43:13):
You know, it's just really,
And some of that is me getting usedto like, yo, oh, today's the day
you're really loving this process.
Oh, today's the day you feel likeyou're never going to be X, Y, Z.
And just understanding that andhow to talk to myself through that
(43:34):
and how to understand those voicesare going to come and those parts
of you are going to show up and.
Trying to collect strategies andpractices that help me navigate that has
been a huge part of my life that, quitefrankly, I either didn't have time for
in my day to day marriage or didn't maketime for in my day to day marriage, and
(43:54):
I can't tell which of those are truebecause when you have 50 percent of
time to yourself, you really realize it.
Oh, little time and space youhave in a marriage for real, like
to just be exploring yourself.
Like, let me tell you what I wasnot doing when we were married and
parenting, like, Hey babe, I'm justgoing to go like in the backyard,
(44:15):
you know, just run through exercisesto get in touch with my inner child.
Like, no, you know, and now I do thatquite regularly throughout my week
because I just have so much energy.
time.
Yeah.
Which is like really a great partof marriage, divorce, you know?
Yeah.
It's pretty amazing.
Ooh.
(44:35):
I'm trying to think about what to,to how we can wrap this all up.
Cause there's so much, you know, no, no,no, do not say sorry because there's so
many good things, but I'm really hopingyou can take a minute to think about
like, Okay, now that we've told everybodythis never ends, and now that we've
told everybody that there's this otherspace, no, there's so much hope in it.
There's so much hope in the processand getting to know yourself.
(44:58):
Like, what advice would you give somebodythat's like, just starting the process
or maybe is in that emotional spacethat you were in at the beginning?
Like, from now you've come,what would you tell them?
What would I tell them?
Everything's different in two weeks.
And this is going to sound really cheesytoo, but I've come to really believe it.
(45:22):
And I'm getting a lot more woowoo every passing week of my life.
But I think that if you can kind of, andeverybody gets divorced for different
reasons, some people are choosing it, somepeople are not, you know, but I think if
you can really get to a place where youbelieve like life is happening for me.
(45:47):
Not to me.
And
that if I believe that I can evenshift slightly to believe that maybe 10
percent more than I currently do, then
I can kind of create an activelike dance with what's happening.
(46:14):
For me right now, and that I can, Iactually influence where this goes.
I actually influence howmiserable this is for me.
I actually influence my behavior.
I actually really have some influenceover my emotional landscape.
And I can bring some intention to that,and it doesn't mean it's easy, and that
(46:36):
doesn't mean, but it does mean that like,
this does not have to be the worst.
It already is going to be painful, right?
I do not think it's possible to getdivorced without some modicum of
pain, but the degree of suffering youdo have some influence over, right?
And so.
If you can kind of figure out who arethe people that help remind you of that?
(47:00):
What are the practices thathelp remind you of that?
What are the messages to tell yourselfthat help you remind you of that?
Like, it, it will Bye bye.
You will get the other side.
You will get that side ofthe coin that is beautiful.
You will get that if, if you want it.
And I think that would be my advice is,you know, I, I found it super useful
(47:20):
to talk to other people who were goingthrough a divorce in a way that I found
to be closer to this vibe, even if itwas, you know, not a pretty divorce.
What were some of thethings that helped them?
And that was super useful.
So figure out who those people are thathelp you remind you that this can be
something that happens, you know, for you.
(47:41):
And, and it might end up being the bestthing that ever happened to you, even if
it happened in a really shitty way, or youwish it didn't happen, or you wish you had
come out sooner, or you wish you had nevermarried, you know, all of those things,
wishing that things had gone differently.
You might also think that this is likethe best thing that ever happened to you.
If you kind of, if you choose.
(48:01):
Yeah, that's beautiful advice, really.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for being willing toshare your story and your experience
around your divorce and your wisdomfrom what you've learned from it.
Yeah, of course.
And none of us are perfect, right?
Like none of us are experts inlife, but hearing your wisdom
and sharing that is so amazing.
I'm so grateful that you told me aboutthis podcast, that you asked me to be on
(48:25):
and that you've created this community.
Like, I, I really think rememberingthat other people are divorced
is a weird, helpful thing.
Creating community.
I think I told you when I met you at thatday, like I had a whole baby dream that
I was just going to do something relatedto divorce for a while because it's such
a common, but feels so unique experience.
(48:45):
And so I just think it's amazingthat you, and then you add the queer
layer on, whether you're, Comingout after getting divorced or you're
getting divorced and you're gay.
Like, I think what you'vecreated is really special and
I'm just really grateful to bea little bit of a part of it.
Oh, thank you so much.
And thank you for being a part of it.
Oh, it's so good.
Yes.
so very much.
(49:07):
Appreciate you.
Hi, Chrissy.
Welcome to the Queer Divorce Club.
Thanks for having me.
I'm really excited.
I'm really looking forward to todaybecause we've had a few of these, but
you're really getting to talk about yourstory and I'm excited for you to share
the process that you went through in yourdivorce and how you're feeling today.
And I think our listeners will getsome really good stuff out of it.
Yeah, I hope so.
I was just saying to you before we hitthe record that I wish something like
(00:25):
this had existed or it did and I hadfound it sooner because I think divorces
can be so destabilizing and creatingthis little community is, is a real gift.
So I'm glad to be here.
Well, thank you forbeing a part of it today.
To get us started, can you giveus a little glimpse of, like, just
where you are today in your life?
Yeah so I'm, I'm about five years outfrom my divorce, which sometimes it feels
(00:49):
like it was 20 years ago, and sometimesit feels like it was four minutes ago.
It really kind of depends on the day.
I, since that time, have also gonethrough a lot of other transitions.
I got a new job.
In the pandemic, I lost my job.
I worked for myself.
So just kind of getting my careera little bit stabilized as well.
And in the mid midst of co parenting,teens and preteens, which feels very
(01:14):
much a big part of my life right now.
Yeah, those teenagers take over.
Yeah, they really do.
Yeah, they really do.
Yeah, so you've gonethrough tons of transitions.
So I'm excited.
Let's talk about them.
Can you just explain the basics of likehow your divorce process got started
(01:34):
and what that felt like for you?
I in prep for this kind of went back andjust read some journals from that time
of my life, which was, which was helpful.
So I, Got divorced.
I mean, I think the decision and thewhole process of it came to a head pretty
close to Christmas 2018, which I don'trecommend doing that near a holiday.
(01:57):
It's not amazing.
And I would say that in someways it happened really fast.
In other ways, probably there were signs.
I'm sure anyone who's beendivorced, it's like not a super
simple story to make sense
of, but it was pretty,you know, Sudden and
fast and a little bit of a shockto myself, to the kids, to the
(02:20):
whole kind of family system.
And so the process of getting divorced of,of kind of like that initial conversation
to like legally divorce was about a year.
So I got legally divorced from my exwife, like the following December of
20, 19 then a pandemic in 2020, so itwas just a real lot of things happening
(02:43):
at once, but that kind of timeline is,is kind of where my divorce happened.
And you so you said you're like startedthat legal process a year after you.
Separated.
Is that correct?
Well, we started the legalprocess probably months.
I feel like there was a little bitcloudy, but when you have kids, you
need to like, wait a certain amount oftime where you can like, sign the paper.
(03:06):
We started, we ended up doing mediationwhich I know we can talk about that.
And so we started that processprobably six months, maybe even
sooner from that initial conversation.
And then we had to like, wait togo to the, like, official signing
of the papers until a year later.
Yeah.
Each state has a different process,but I know in Michigan, we have a
(03:27):
six month waiting period if you havekids and it's shorter if you don't.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
There's all of those legalese.
Yeah.
I was so overwhelmed at that point.
I, that was like the least of thethings on my mind was like the
legal component of it, but yeah.
Yeah.
How did you choose the mediationprocess that you went through?
Yeah.
I mean, I think from my experience, Imean, so there's like the whole emotional
(03:50):
family stuff I know we'll get into.
And then the legal element and thefinancial element and the custody
element of it all creates, or createdat least for me, a ton of stress.
And there's so much uncertainty in thatof, you know, how do you split it all up?
And is your ex going to be fair?
And you're kind of thinking of yourex as your partner, but they're not.
(04:11):
And so, and then you haveall these people around you.
Kind of trying to protect you feeding,feeding you fear, you know, like,
what if, what if this, and what ifthat, and what if this, and again,
I was so emotionally upended thatI truly could not think straight.
(04:31):
But I did not want to be, I didnot want to spend a lot of money.
And I felt like all I had heard from otherpeople I knew was like, the lawyers just,
you know, that adds another fee to youand you might as well spend that money.
Keeping it within you.
And, and so actually like probably oneof the most helpful things I did was one
of the friends who was kind of like, yougotta like Chrissy, you're not, you're
(04:53):
not like, it's cute that you think yourex might be fair, but like, what if
she isn't, and it would be helpful toknow, so I went to she knew a lawyer who
went out to like, go to drink with me,this man, I've never seen him before.
I've never seen him since.
I don't even know his name and Ican barely, I can barely remember
what he looks like, but God lovehim because I'll never forget this.
(05:14):
We were sitting down and I was like,you know, how does divorce work?
And he's like, look, it's pretty much.
a math equation.
You know, you take this, you timesthat, you divide this, that determines
custody, you do this, you do that,and it doesn't matter if there was an
affair, it doesn't matter if there wasabuse, I mean it's pretty cut and dry.
(05:36):
And so, and I said, well, then whywould anybody spend money on a lawyer?
And he said, more people shouldask themselves that question.
He was a divorce attorney until I waslike, Roger that, you know, and he was
like, look, if you're trying to get isit alimony or like, you know, spousal,
whatever that, you know, I'm like, Idon't think we have a case for that.
(05:58):
We're both professional.
We both have careers.
And so I was, I don't know, that just likehit me over the head of like, look, I'm
not looking to take anything from you.
That's not, you know, so my ex and Iwere having enough conversations that I
think we both had enough still trust ofone another there, even in a real time
(06:20):
of uncertainty that this is a really,this is a good human being, air quotes.
And.
They're not gonna try andtake something from me.
That's not theirs.
And so we both decided we were going totry mediation, knowing that if at any
point either of us felt like a growingfear that it wasn't going to play out
(06:41):
that way, then we would just get lawyers.
And that process could not havebeen, we, we went to the mediation
essentially with everything decided.
I don't actually even know wepaid the mediator to do, you know,
we maybe had a couple things.
We had the kids schedule.
She, she did a little math thatwe had to figure out and we
(07:03):
were in and out like in an hour.
Nice.
Yeah.
Nice.
Yeah.
That sounds ideal.
I know.
I, and I, I recognize that noteverybody has the privilege of
working with an ex that they cansay, hey, Whatever happens about us
not having a romantic relationship.
(07:26):
This is still a human being thatI've been with for 10 years, for
15 that was built on a friendship.
Can we kind of find the core of that?
And it was awkward.
I mean, please not do not picturemy ex and I like, Hey, just here
to talk about who gets the minivan.
You know, it was awkward.
It was not fun.
It was emotionally draining.
(07:47):
But I was I was also so financiallyscared that wasting money didn't
feel like a really great idea.
Yeah.
So I was really gratefulfor that component of it.
Yeah.
So you took care of yourself and theparts that you felt were like really
important in that moment for you.
I tried, you know, I really triedand I really tried to, you know, like
(08:07):
I said, I had friends and family,I think that were lovingly Trying
to protect me and I couldn't get upfrom down at that point of like, you
know, I was like, just in my own like,washing machine of like, I trust her.
What did she just takeon my whole retirement?
I would have to have, you know, all thewhat ifs, you know, it's like, not only
is your own grade feeding them to you.
(08:29):
In my experience, and I think this istrue of a lot of people, people are
trying to be helpful and they're tryingto, it's like you're not in a place
to think clearly, which I was not.
And so I think just trying tonavigate all that was a big part of
the mediation versus divorce lawyer.
I had no questions about parentalrights or anything like that.
Again, another gift and privilege.
So it really worked for us.
(08:51):
And if you can get to that place withyour ex, I like can't recommend it,
especially if there's kids involved,you know, like I recommend it.
I, I, I just, yeah, I'm sograteful for that lawyer.
And that like a little one,the only lawyer I ever talked
to and it was super helpful.
Yeah.
I feel like when I went throughthe process too, we ended up using
(09:12):
attorneys after we tried to do it alone.
And then I looked for a mediator, butcouldn't really find accessible services.
And then the more and more we starthaving these conversations, I'm
like, they're out there everywhere.
Like everybody shouldbe using these services.
I think our mediationcost us, and I'm not.
I'm not kidding, 150.
What?
I could be totally wrong, soYeah, but it's less than 8, 000.
(09:35):
Oh, yes.
It was, it was, it was I should giveyou the Grand Rapids place in case
people come to you for that becauseit was a really great experience.
The woman was amazing.
Again, I don't remember her name.
Can't remember what she looked like.
It was an emotional time.
Yes, I remember the feltexperience of that day.
(09:55):
And it was, it was really.
Lovely.
If you can look back during that timeand you just talk, you've mentioned
the emotional support quite a bit,and it sounds like you weren't
sure exactly in those exact momentswho to connect to or whatever.
If you could look back at Chrissy inthat moment, what would you tell her?
Like, who should you connect with?
What should you say to these people?
You know, what would you tell her?
(10:16):
Yeah, a lot of it, I think I endedup finding, you know, I think
when I, when I go backto that state, I was.
It's really hard to untangle forme what I was so sad and whatever
insert all the feelings and emotionsof the not positive side of the
feelings wheel were all flooding meand it's really hard to untangle.
(10:40):
Are you sad about theend of this relationship?
Are you sad about the end of the routine?
You know, you're 40 years old.
You didn't picture.
This mega shift happening where yourfriends and your routine and your
family dinners are all gone in a day.
You know, you don't get to see your kids.
(11:03):
all the time.
Are you sad about that?
And so the overwhelm for meof just being totally flooded.
I mean, I could not eat.
I lost 30 pounds.
I could not sleep.
I could not think I could not work.
If I hadn't been working whereI had worked for 15 years, I
would have for sure been fired.
They should have fired me.
And so I think that, and it felt likeit was never going to not feel that way.
(11:26):
It felt like.
I guess the best of my life is behind me.
This is you now.
And, and, you know, and I could kindof touch that that might not be true,
but then at FUMA, I would get pulledright back into bed, you know, just like
calling my mom, like I'm hungry, sad andtired, but I can't eat and I can't work.
(11:48):
And, and so I think some of the thingsthat I found by accident, you know, that
I would maybe tell myself or other people.
Therapy obviously was really helpful.
I was already in therapy at the time,but I doubled up and was going a lot.
I was asking for help, like a
(12:09):
animal, like just, I had friends here.
I, I, at a year later, I sent thisemail out to everybody who helped me.
And I had a little side email for likehusbands of the, Of the support club who
just like lent their wives to me, youknow, at all hours of the day families,
whose family dinners I was just joining,I really missed, I could almost like,
(12:31):
I just missed so much like family.
And so I would just like go to friendshouses for like family dinners and
just like really borrow their kids.
Like, I just like, I didn't have akitchen table in my house because that
was one of the things that I just.
Give to her.
And so I didn't have a kitchen tablein my house for like a long time.
(12:53):
I don't know.
I was both not functioning and I thinkgetting a kitchen table probably resented.
So I think like reaching out for help wasjust a thing I really had to get good at.
And there were so many people, likepeople that I expected to love me.
But then all these other people, like whoI was like, you're just like a person at
the gym who yes, I have a relationshipwith but, you know, I think I really
(13:19):
leaned on actually building a whole newcommunity and strengthening one that
existed which has been a really greatlife skill to have as you navigate.
Spoiler alert, unfortunately,you continue to navigate other
changes after you get divorced.
No, I'm really pissed about that.
That's like my new reflection.
(13:39):
But I think I built some muscle there.
I took a mindfulness class.
I took an eight week mindfulnessclass and That was incredibly
useful in terms of just skills,self compassion and mindfulness.
There was a, a phrase on that classthat really unhooked me of pain
(13:59):
times resistance equals suffering.
Mm hmm.
And I just, when I saw that Taraon the screen, I was like I'm, I'm,
I'm resisting, like, I am resistingthis, I just felt like if, if this
wasn't happening or if I knew exactlywhy this happening or if only this
would happen, then I would be happy.
Yeah.
You know, and I like just softenedmy grip on all the angst I was in.
(14:29):
Adding to the experience, just,I didn't let go of it, but I
softened it and that made thepain a little bit more manageable.
And that actually was a huge turning pointin my own suffering of the experience.
So, yeah.
I was just thinking about, yeah,just thinking about that for, I just
need to sit in that for a second.
(14:49):
Yeah.
I really.
I also have connected a lot tothis idea of releasing myself from
the resistance and part of that,like as you said, asking for help.
I think one of the things I resisted aton was like letting myself be needing
help and letting myself ask for it.
And I think that thatcomes up quite a bit.
So I'm hoping that you can say you'vealready, I could see it in you that
(15:12):
the felt experience was once you didask for help, you got received help.
And so it didn't seem.
Like that was stressful, right?
That felt good.
Yeah.
And I was, you know, I think a better wayto say what actually happened is that I
was so not functioning that I got help.
(15:36):
I just received, people descended on me.
And the gift of that is that nowwhen I need help, When I believe
in trust, it will be there.
And I asked for it.
So like, it would be giving past Chrissya little bit too much credit that
she was like, Hey, I need help more.
Like people were looking at me like, girl,you're not functioning and you need help.
(16:00):
And they really showed up for me ina way that like, That was a, that was
like, I, I was actively hovering abovethe experience a little bit and was
like, There are so many gifts of griefand there are so many beautiful pieces
of what I can't like feel it but I seeit and I'm making a mental note of it
(16:23):
and when I can get myself unburied, holyshit, I'm gonna tell everybody that like
in the darkest corners of the experiencesthat life gives you, there's also the
most love, the most connection, themost beautiful pieces of life, the most
pieces of growth and transformation.
I couldn't like Like, but I waslike, I see it, I see it, I see it.
(16:45):
Wow.
You know, and when I did pop my, hemyself back up and started to shift, I
was like, almost honestly, I was almostlike . And I'm so sad 'cause I can't,
I can't get in touch with it right now.
'cause now I have new,painful experiences.
But I was like.
Endorphin rush.
It was like on the otherside of it was like
(17:09):
just energy and transformationand joy and presence and dopamine
and, and all of these things.
And, and I felt that it,it, I didn't, I touched it.
I observed it when I was in the kind ofvalley of it, but on the other side I
was like, I mean, I lost my job and justdecided I was gonna work for myself.
In 2020 April.
(17:31):
Yeah.
That's delusional.
That's like borderlinedelusional and it worked.
That's how unstoppable I felt, you know,like I would never do that now, but I
think because I was on that come up on theother side, it was, it was really special.
You feel like there's this moment when,so I'm thinking about, we talk about this
(17:53):
messy middle a lot and it sounds like thatwas that space for you before you decided
like, Okay, the middle is done and I'mready to move forward and I can look back
in my experience and I can totally feel ifI think back, I can feel in my body like
the moments when it was shifted, right?
And I can see the shift.
And for me, it was kind of gradual.
And over time, it was like,Oh, that shit felt really good.
And then I felt like crap.
(18:14):
And then I felt, is thatwhat I felt like for you?
What was the experience?
Yes.
And, you know, I think
There'd be moments, right, where so like,phase one, I felt like, you know, you're
just like, here I am, I'm divorced, I'min Grand Rapids, I'm gay, I have two kids,
I'm gay divorced, there was like the shamespiral of like, I just remember thinking
(18:37):
like, like so many people get divorced,like this should feel, this is not a big
deal, and then feeling like, The onlyperson who ever got divorced and like all
I could see was like it, you know I'venever had the experience of scrolling
through social media and feeling likethat makes me feel bad about my life I
don't usually do like a compare contrastBut I was like, I don't want to see your
(19:00):
fucking family on a vacation Like I reallyI don't want to see your anniversary.
I don't even want to seeyou I don't want to see you.
So I just like deleted social media.
Cause I could really sense that.
So there was like that phase andthen, and, and kind of like not
knowing what to do with my time.
Like I felt like on my stretcheswithout the kids, like, what do I do?
(19:23):
Like, what, who am I like, Iwas doing like puzzles at my.
Not kitchen table fold out.
I've never done a puzzle in my life.
I've never done one since you know I waslike puzzles are hard that I would just
like just weird shit, you know and thenthere'd be like a phase where i'm like,
oh like I could go to The beach on asaturday With my friend, I could go to
(19:45):
brunch, like I can do whatever I want.
So then I had a little phaseof like, oh, I have hobbies.
I have, I can, I can do things thatI haven't actually done in 20 or 15
years because I've been only parentingor only with this other person.
And then there'd be like anothervalley of like, Christmas is coming
up, like, or their birthdays, or,you know, or like, what will they
(20:09):
do when they projecting way out?
Like, what will they, what will Ido when they come home from college?
Will they, like, only come to 1 over out?
How will we, you know, like,and then I had a phase of like.
I'm going to go to Mexico bymyself and like, which is like,
totally out of character, youknow, so it was definitely like.
(20:31):
Trying to figure out and still who amI now that I don't have some of these
existing structures and sometimes that'sreally fun and sometimes that came with
a lot of sadness and sometimes it camewith confusion and that was my experience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm kind of in that.
The waves, the circles.
(20:53):
I love it.
Yeah.
Every time we talk to somebody on thepodcast or I talked to somebody about
divorce, they're like the emotionsand they're moving their hands around.
Sometimes they move them in waves.
Sometimes it's like, it's legit.
Not a straight line.
We just have to remember that.
And it's not a mountainwe're climbing either.
Nope.
Whatever experience you'rehaving, there's definitely.
Ups and downs and rounds.
(21:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Someone told me like when I was reallyin the, you know, they were just like,
everything's better in two weeks.
Everything's better in two weeks.
And then they were like,and then we revised it.
Like, everything's different in two weeks.
Everything's different.
And honestly, that has been true fora majority of the last several years
(21:35):
of like and I think that's what's Ohyeah, now we're in this phase of it.
Now we're in this phase of it.
Now we're in this phase of it.
And I would imagine there'll be anelement of that for the rest of my life.
You know, like.
I'm not from a divorced family andso I can get really caught up in
things like, yeah, like, what willthey do when they come from college
or will I not see them at home?
(21:56):
Will I be a grandma whose kidsdon't come all this, you know, weird
shit just pops into your brain.
And so it's like, yeah,everything's different.
One thing to know for sure is thatthis phase is not staying long.
And unfortunately, that's true aboutsome of the good phases, but it's also
always true about some of the toughphases and that's been a helpful muscle,
not just to navigate this part of life,but to just navigate life in general.
(22:20):
It's really easy to just get lulled intostatus quo, but status quo never stays
forever, for one reason or another.
And so kind of building upsome of this resilience around.
Resistance around awareness aroundunderstanding what really upsets you,
what really helps you when you're themost upset what that that has been a
gift of something this seismic happeningin my life, and it continues to be
(22:44):
something that I have to reflect on.
As I figure out how to be a human,navigating the human experience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was just thinking as you weresaying that, that we do have,
all of us have this, right?
Like as we get older, you know,nobody's life is the same.
And I think there's a lot of battles wecan make and talk about psychologically
that like midlife crises and things as weget older and we like grieve these phases.
(23:07):
And I think that.
The gift, like you were saying, isthat divorce gives you that chance to
do it at a younger age and you have todo it, like you don't have a choice.
So there's a ton of grief and a lotmore things you're experiencing,
but then as you go, you realizethat the goal is not to have a life.
That is just me as a single person or mein this new life, but that to have a life,
(23:32):
right, that you're choosing yourself,that you're giving yourself this chance.
And yeah, it sounds like you did that foryourself or you're learning how to do it.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm, you know, my therapist, I waslike, nope, we don't try we practice,
you know, and, and I'm practicing.
I'm trying.
I'm sorry.
I'm practicing some of the skills thatwere definitely required of me in that
(23:56):
phase that are required of me in smallerways in the day to day experience, right?
It's like, that pain timesresistance, you know, equation
really helped me in that big thing.
But it also helps me likeat an airport, right?
When I'm like, I'm pissed that Ihave a layover and it's delayed and
now I can't get where I'm going.
(24:17):
And it's like, okay, like, Oh,it looks like you're kind of, you
know, like I built some big musclesaround some of these things then.
And I, I think, you know, it's helpedme cultivate Then in smaller ways now I
really felt strongly early in the divorce.
I'm talking like within the firstthree weeks of realizing that this was
(24:37):
happening to me, that it was like mybrain in an instant, and I don't even
know why it did this, but it projectedout like a bitter, resentful, 65 year old
version of myself at my kid's wedding.
Just.
Bitter and then someone's like, whendid you guys get divorced and I had to
(24:58):
be like 40 years ago And look I'm stilltalking about it, you know, like and I
was like, I will not Be that and again,I don't know if my parents are divorced.
I don't know why my brain like fedme that message So and you know what
else isn't going to happen My kidsare not going to be navigating the
(25:20):
stress of a divorce on top of twoadults Who they feel hate each other.
It was like I read I didn't get througha parenting book on co parenting because
I was trying, but I was not functioning,but I did read like page 1, 2, and 3, and
one of the sentences that stuck with methen was like the, you know, it was, the
idea was like, The two people that yourkids love the most are their two parents.
(25:45):
And when they hear somebody talkingnegatively about their parent, they
actually absorb them about themselvesbecause you're too young to delineate.
Who am I separate from my parents?
You don't do that until you're twenties.
And so anything they hear about thatparent, they're hearing about themselves.
And so some of those things I think havehelped me honestly be a better person.
(26:08):
It's very easy to slip into
anger and frustration and why me andI've tried to untangle that and at
times I've been probably crossed myown boundaries and other times maybe
I did get resentful, but I've triedto kind of have a North Star there.
And I think, again, that NorthStar helps me in other areas of
(26:29):
my life in terms of regulating.
Yeah, I really like that idea of thisNorth Star, like as you were talking
to about being 65 and still mad at yourdad about the divorce and that feeling.
I mean, I in my world havevery much seen this happen.
Like my parents were divorced when Iwas, I think seven or eight and they
(26:50):
did not talk again until my wedding day.
Like they, it was just tumultuousand in between and they would fight
and just, I mean, that was 20 years.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Close to that they were just stuckin this and it seems like so bitter
and angry and oh, yeah Energy, right?
Yeah, and you don't wantyou're getting divorced Why no
(27:11):
matter if you chose it or not?
Why would you want that torule your life forever, right?
Like you gotta really gottawork through it, right?
And I to be totally honest and Ican remember thinking this because
people you know People try to praiseyou and tell you what you're doing.
You go.
Oh, you're doing such a great job blahblah blah and like Without the kids
as the impetus, I think I probablycould have become like a trash person.
(27:33):
Like I think I could have beenlike, like, I think I would have, I
don't know what I would have done.
It's impossible to know for sure, but Ithink I can say with a great degree of
certainty that The kids were a big impetusof, and now, you know, we're five years
out, and so at the time we were parentinga second grader and a sixth grader, and
(27:55):
now we're parenting a sophomore and asixth grader, and they're navigating
really difficult teen things, and I cannotimagine not being on the same page with
her, not communicating with her regularly.
Yeah.
Our kids would be so much worseoff and they would be able to
slip through all these cracks.
(28:15):
If they knew we were not talking,I mean, they, they, they know, like
they, and they love, they're so proudof the fact, you know, they handle it.
My daughter's like, I have, I havefriends who are not, whose parents
are divorced and they won't evenlook at each other when they exchange
and they won't, you know, and mydaughter's like really takes that in.
And my son, he's 16 and he's kind of like,The last thing I need is the two of you at
(28:39):
the same table because he knows it's us.
It's us for you and also us against you.
So like, you know, likewe are in lockstep.
So please don't think you can tellthat mom one thing and then come home
and not know that we talked about it.
And I, and the groundwork that I laideven naively, you know, like I said, I
think I probably I was figuring out how tohave boundaries with somebody that I had
(29:01):
been married to for almost a decade, youknow, so you're kind of figuring that out.
And when you date new people, theykind of point out like, Hey, you
know, and that was super helpful, but.
I think it's been nothing but good aswe've tried to figure out and she's been
amazing max and I think we're enteringa new phase of figure out who we are as
two people, knowing that these two kidsare leaking us for the rest of our life.
(29:24):
Yeah.
So yeah, it's made it it's madethe day to day just a lot less.
Honestly, I don't feel stressed ifI have to make a phone call to her.
It's like, it's nothing, you know?
Yeah.
That's a great spot to be able toget to, but it does take work, right?
It takes work from both of you.
It takes work for you.
Like you were saying, setting goodboundaries, it does take a lot of work.
I'll guess one plug.
(29:44):
Sorry.
I will say to us is, you know, we gotour kids therapist when we were going
through it and You know, they each havea different reaction to that, but that
therapist will sometimes have meetingswith me and my ex to guide us, you know,
so sometimes we'll go there and, andand we'll be like, Hey, you know, we're
approaching this teen thing and thisis really hard and here's our values.
(30:08):
And that's been immensely helpful in Andwe were, it's not even because we were
not on the same page, although I couldsee that way, that would be really useful.
But that's been an amazing resource for usto just provide a third party to help us.
Figure out, you know, how toapproach things with the kids.
Yeah.
We have that too.
Therapists for all three of our kiddosfeel like that space is it's also just
(30:32):
thinking about that, that each kidis so different as you go to, and you
have to like navigate with each oneindividually and it's not one solution.
And so you're right.
That is a very good support.
Yeah.
As you think about the last five yearsand in this new space, you're in what.
Are you really proud of?
(30:52):
I'm, I'm like, I am very proud ofthe whole last part of what we did.
I'm, I'm so proud of our co parenting.
It's only gotten better everyyear over the last five years.
I think it will onlycontinue to get better.
And I'm proud of that because Isee the impact it has on our kids.
(31:14):
I'm really proud of.
And again, I say I credit having childrenbe in this because I could see a trash
version of myself, but I didn't doanything in the process of the divorce.
That I'm not proud of, or that I'm like,that was really aggressively mean, or
(31:36):
that did not need to be said, or, I'mlike, really, and honestly, I don't even
know if I have a, I just was journalingthe other morning, and I'm like, has
the dust, like, fully settled on mydivorce, you know, like, in some ways,
I've, like, diluted myself into thinking,and in other ways, I'm still, like,
(31:58):
Processing it like I think that so I'mproud of the fact that everything I
did and the way that I conducted myselfthrough that experience is something that
I can point to of like Chrissy you'recapable of that and of that and of that
and like, I don't know that I knew Iwas and then I think the third thing
would be, I have really tried to use mydivorce As a real mirror to, Hey girl,
(32:29):
what are some things you want to work on?
You know, like this divorcecan be about a lot of things.
It can be about all the waysthat, you know, you're a victim.
It can be about all theways that you're a failure.
It can be whatever you want this to be.
It can be about, and I've really workedhard to try and better understanding
myself, you know, like why, you know,what was my ex's experience of me?
(32:53):
What did I hear?
What did I not hear?
What does that help me understandabout how I want to move through
relationships moving forward?
What does that help me understand about,you know, like, and that in that way,
like, I will, I think that the divorce.
And all of the ways that happened,which were not perfect and
has been like, honestly, oneof the best gifts of my life.
(33:13):
And
the degree to which I feel thatranges day to day, you know,
there's, there's still days whereI'm like, is this where I want to be?
I'm 44 years old.
Like, you know, like I thoughtI'd be settled, you know, like
there's some expectations in there.
(33:34):
There's some, but for the most part.
It has given me so many lessons andso many gifts and so many muscles
that I wasn't going to get it.
I don't think without a reallyseismic life change, unfortunately.
And so I'm really proudof the way that I've.
Try to live into that.
(33:54):
for sharing all those.
You have so much to be proud of.
Thanks.
It's a great side to be in.
Yeah.
And I'm, I'm still trying to learnthose lessons, you know, that's the,
that's the kind of bummer of it all.
It's just like, in my mind,I'm like, Oh, I'm divorced.
And now this happens.
And now I'm like this perfect person.
(34:16):
And isn't that great.
That has not been myexperience, unfortunately.
Yeah, unfortunately thosehang ups continue to exist.
Exactly, exactly.
Maybe I'm working to get betterat how I communicate about them.
Yeah.
What are a few things, just thinkingabout that, that you feel like you
could always use continued support on?
(34:38):
Oh, girl.
I think, I think one of them is
I can be, you know, one of thereasons that the divorce was so
hard for me is that I'm amazing atavoiding some of the feelings on the
feeling wheel that are not positive.
Like I, you know, I, whatever energyyou're absorbing through the screen is
(35:02):
probably the energy that is my gift.
And the, and the, and the, the,the Achilles heel of that is
that it sometimes keeps me from,it often keeps me from having.
conversations about things thatreally need to be discussed
and in any relationship.
And, you know, that type ofavoidance doesn't always serve me.
(35:25):
And, and I, I didn't, honestly, Ididn't, and still probably don't
fully understand the way thatimpacts other people around me.
I'm still trying to figureout how it impacts me.
But I think that element of, Avoidanceand, you know, avoidance attachment
gets in my way pretty regularly.
And so I think that's just goingto be a thing I work on and will
(35:47):
always show up in relationships.
I think my ability to communicate aboutthat and understand it and listen to it.
A partner, a kid, whoever that'simpacting is something that I've just
accepted is going to be part of what Ineed to continue to work on and trying
to get feel that because it feels likea total threat to my nervous system.
(36:09):
But I think.
I missed it in my marriage.
I don't think I fully understood it.
And I'm still trying to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Those attachment styles and trauma.
Yes.
For real.
And it's like the air you breathe, right?
So you're like, I might think I'm notavoiding something because it's relative
(36:33):
to my internal scale, but then someoneelse's internal scale and spectrum
is like way different than mine.
And so they're exposed to that.
Where are you?
And I'm like, I'm, aren'tI not, am I not here?
, , I thought I was here.
You know?
Mm-Hmm.
. They're like, you're not here, you know?
And mm-Hmm.
. My ability to apologize andtake responsibility, you know?
(36:53):
I think that's the thing I'm workingon, and I'll always continue to work on.
I'm really fast and.
And so all those things show up andthey're not going to, they're not going
to not show up just because I got adivorce and went to therapy a lot.
Right.
You're not going to fix it.
Sadly, yeah.
Yeah, that is the fucking likeworst thing about it is that
(37:16):
you can't actually fix it.
Like everything blows up in your divorceand you have all this stuff to heal.
And if you're doing like, there'sno right or wrong way, but.
If you take the divorce and youwant to move forward, especially
if you have kids, you're right.
You can't go back.
And like, sometimes you'llfalter and you're like, I
don't want to go back either.
But the shit of it is, isthat there's not an end.
(37:37):
Yeah.
And then it's opened up so much.
It's really a bummer.
I mean, I have to be honest with you,like, you know, into the point of like
the hills and valleys, it's like, I swearto God, and this is like so embarrassing,
but like for about two months ago,this was all I could talk about.
I was like, Oh my God,it just keeps coming.
Like it's just like, Ireally think, I didn't know.
(38:00):
I consciously thought this,but I really think I thought,
like, All these this big horrible thinghappened to you and then you do all
this work and then like you're gonnaget like a long break from life lifing
like and you just don't like and thenyou're like I don't want to do it again
(38:21):
like I do feel kind of whiny like Yep.
The one I had a couple years ago.
Oh my gosh.
I feel like, I think we need to createa new like stages of grief for when you
go through divorce to healing, becauseI also was like just a couple of weeks
ago, I had gotten back from a trip toMexico with my new partner and we're.
In the kitchen and I was just like,Oh, I'm so done with all that stuff.
(38:45):
Like, yeah, we just likestay in Mexico forever.
Yes.
Yeah.
So frustrating.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm really working on right now,
writing those waves alittle more skillfully.
Because I think I forget and it's likethe acceptance that like what's good
(39:10):
It's like both sides of the same coin.
So, so, and I was really obsessedabout one side of the coin, which is
like the bad will never last forever.
Yeah, like it just doesn't, right?
It just doesn't.
Anyone who's been, who's been throughsomething with significant grief,
once they are far enough along,they can recognize, Oh God, like I
(39:33):
thought, I thought I was going tofeel this way forever at some point.
And now here I am, and I'min a new relationship or I
have a new job or whatever.
But the other side is true thatlike whatever is good is also
always changing, which means thatit also will not stay forever.
And you're just kind of teeteringbetween those two sides of the coin.
(39:55):
From what I can tell forever, fromthe listeners out there who like
me didn't really quite get that.
I really need to tell you theshocking twist of the event,
but it's just constantly that.
And sometimes it's a chosen.
Flip of the coin.
And sometimes the coin comesfor you and you didn't pick it.
And sometimes it's small, sometimesit's medium, sometimes it's big.
(40:17):
And so all you really have controlover is your reaction to it, your
resistance to it, how you manage it, howyou take care of yourself through it.
And that's, I mean, it's, I feel like Isound really cheesy and cliche, but I'm
kind of like obsessed with this rightnow because I'm like Chrissy, like,
It's just going to keep happening, youknow, and, and so I'm trying to, this
(40:43):
is one of the latter stage, one of thestages of divorce, because I feel like
I've also been so frequently, like justlast week, I'm taking a writing class
and we were reflecting on our writingand how it shifted and all these things.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, like my goalin my writing was to explain the story of
how I became my authentic self, like howI became, how I like, yes, in this person.
And then all of a sudden I was like,That's not actually what's happening.
(41:06):
I'm going to be continuingbecoming, becoming forever.
This is what I wrote about in my journal.
I was like, you wanted a nicelittle bow to the end of this story.
Like, I think I thoughtabout writing a book too.
And like, Oh, here's this like reallybad, sad thing that happened to me.
And then I did these set ofthings to take care of and did it.
(41:27):
And I, and it's in this part is true.
I have been discovering edgesof myself and pieces of myself.
Self that either became dormant inmy marriage or I never had unlocked
yet, which has been amazing.
Right.
That is like the highest high of parts ofthe story, but there is no bow to any part
(41:48):
of our story because it just keeps going.
And, and, and that's like, Ithink I thought the same thing.
I was like a blister child for divorce.
I would, if you came to me for certainphases of this, like maybe two years
ago or a year ago, I've been like,girl, you're going to get a glow up.
You are going to become thebest version of yourself.
You are going to look back onthis and think that was the best.
(42:11):
And like, I do believe that,but now there's like a part of
my story that it's like, Girl,it's going to come for you again.
You're going to figure out more shit.
Like you're, you're going to have anotherlow, like the whole picture needs to be a
part of the story because otherwise we'relike lying to ourselves and other people
(42:31):
about, about what a divorce is or whatany part of any number of these changes.
So it sounds like, I mean, you and I feellike a little bit on the same page and the
destination is really trusting yourself,you know, stopping the resistance, like
you're saying, like feeling your emotions,like getting to know who you are, all of
those changes is the actual destination.
(42:52):
Not one specific you.
Yes.
Yes.
And on some days that feels sofucking fun and invigorating.
I'm, what am I, I'm watercoloring,coloring in my backyard.
I'm doing an energy reading.
I'm, you know, meditate.
I'm doing all these things.
And on another day, I'm like, am I goingto be trying to figure out how to not be
avoided for the rest of my fucking life?
(43:13):
You know, it's just really,
And some of that is me getting usedto like, yo, oh, today's the day
you're really loving this process.
Oh, today's the day you feel likeyou're never going to be X, Y, Z.
And just understanding that andhow to talk to myself through that
(43:34):
and how to understand those voicesare going to come and those parts
of you are going to show up and.
Trying to collect strategies andpractices that help me navigate that has
been a huge part of my life that, quitefrankly, I either didn't have time for
in my day to day marriage or didn't maketime for in my day to day marriage, and
(43:54):
I can't tell which of those are truebecause when you have 50 percent of
time to yourself, you really realize it.
Oh, little time and space youhave in a marriage for real, like
to just be exploring yourself.
Like, let me tell you what I wasnot doing when we were married and
parenting, like, Hey babe, I'm justgoing to go like in the backyard,
(44:15):
you know, just run through exercisesto get in touch with my inner child.
Like, no, you know, and now I do thatquite regularly throughout my week
because I just have so much energy.
time.
Yeah.
Which is like really a great partof marriage, divorce, you know?
Yeah.
It's pretty amazing.
Ooh.
(44:35):
I'm trying to think about what to,to how we can wrap this all up.
Cause there's so much, you know, no, no,no, do not say sorry because there's so
many good things, but I'm really hopingyou can take a minute to think about
like, Okay, now that we've told everybodythis never ends, and now that we've
told everybody that there's this otherspace, no, there's so much hope in it.
There's so much hope in the processand getting to know yourself.
(44:58):
Like, what advice would you give somebodythat's like, just starting the process
or maybe is in that emotional spacethat you were in at the beginning?
Like, from now you've come,what would you tell them?
What would I tell them?
Everything's different in two weeks.
And this is going to sound really cheesytoo, but I've come to really believe it.
(45:22):
And I'm getting a lot more woowoo every passing week of my life.
But I think that if you can kind of, andeverybody gets divorced for different
reasons, some people are choosing it, somepeople are not, you know, but I think if
you can really get to a place where youbelieve like life is happening for me.
(45:47):
Not to me.
And
that if I believe that I can evenshift slightly to believe that maybe 10
percent more than I currently do, then
I can kind of create an activelike dance with what's happening.
(46:14):
For me right now, and that I can, Iactually influence where this goes.
I actually influence howmiserable this is for me.
I actually influence my behavior.
I actually really have some influenceover my emotional landscape.
And I can bring some intention to that,and it doesn't mean it's easy, and that
(46:36):
doesn't mean, but it does mean that like,
this does not have to be the worst.
It already is going to be painful, right?
I do not think it's possible to getdivorced without some modicum of
pain, but the degree of suffering youdo have some influence over, right?
And so.
If you can kind of figure out who arethe people that help remind you of that?
(47:00):
What are the practices thathelp remind you of that?
What are the messages to tell yourselfthat help you remind you of that?
Like, it, it will Bye bye.
You will get the other side.
You will get that side ofthe coin that is beautiful.
You will get that if, if you want it.
And I think that would be my advice is,you know, I, I found it super useful
(47:20):
to talk to other people who were goingthrough a divorce in a way that I found
to be closer to this vibe, even if itwas, you know, not a pretty divorce.
What were some of thethings that helped them?
And that was super useful.
So figure out who those people are thathelp you remind you that this can be
something that happens, you know, for you.
(47:41):
And, and it might end up being the bestthing that ever happened to you, even if
it happened in a really shitty way, or youwish it didn't happen, or you wish you had
come out sooner, or you wish you had nevermarried, you know, all of those things,
wishing that things had gone differently.
You might also think that this is likethe best thing that ever happened to you.
If you kind of, if you choose.
(48:01):
Yeah, that's beautiful advice, really.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for being willing toshare your story and your experience
around your divorce and your wisdomfrom what you've learned from it.
Yeah, of course.
And none of us are perfect, right?
Like none of us are experts inlife, but hearing your wisdom
and sharing that is so amazing.
I'm so grateful that you told me aboutthis podcast, that you asked me to be on
(48:25):
and that you've created this community.
Like, I, I really think rememberingthat other people are divorced
is a weird, helpful thing.
Creating community.
I think I told you when I met you at thatday, like I had a whole baby dream that
I was just going to do something relatedto divorce for a while because it's such
a common, but feels so unique experience.
(48:45):
And so I just think it's amazingthat you, and then you add the queer
layer on, whether you're, Comingout after getting divorced or you're
getting divorced and you're gay.
Like, I think what you'vecreated is really special and
I'm just really grateful to bea little bit of a part of it.
Oh, thank you so much.
And thank you for being a part of it.
Oh, it's so good.
Yes.
so very much.
(49:07):
Appreciate you.
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