Flint, Renewal through Self-Discovery

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Hi, Flint.
Welcome to the Queer Divorce Club.
Thank you so much for having me on.
I'm so excited to talk today and get toknow your story a little bit more, and I
appreciate you sharing it with everybody.
To get us started, can you give us aglimpse of just where you're at today?
Well, physically, I'm on a farm in themiddle of the California high desert.
And I'm, we've been out here fora few months and yeah, it's great.

(00:25):
I, we've been keeping chickens andjust got a new dog and it's just a,
a general funny farm of animals andpeople and mentally I'm doing great.
My divorce is finalizing in eightdays, so I can imagine people who
are listening to this podcast aregenerally familiar with how long and
arduous that process can sometimes be.

(00:46):
And so I'm feeling very relievedthat it's almost Completely closed.
So close.
That's so close.
It's awesome.
I have to ask, do youhave a favorite chicken?
Like you, you've only been a fewmonths with them, but have you
gotten a favorite one already?
Yeah, I mean, I absolutelyhave a favorite chicken.
I, I, there's only one who'sproducing eggs for us right now.

(01:06):
And so I think Sharon gets aleg up on everyone else because
she's pulling her weight.
And nobody else's.
But if I'm completely honest, the verysmallest chicken who's got a really
wonky twisty beak is very affectionate.
Her name is Mrs.
Puff and that's my favorite chicken.
Adorable.
Adorable.
Chickens are adorable andso messy and I love it.
Oh yeah, and smelly.

(01:29):
All right.
So you're eight days away fromyour second divorce, right?
Can you explain a little bit ofthat journey and both divorces
and how each one was different?
Sure.
Yeah, my, my divorces couldn'thave been more different.
And when the second one was rolling aroundand I saw it coming, I started feeling a
little bit like, Ross from friends, right?

(01:51):
Like I felt like I wasjust collecting divorces.
But they all happened at completelydifferent times in my life.
The first one I got married whenI was 22 before I understood
myself as queer really in any way.
I married a guy right out of collegeand we were together actually
Starting when I was 15, so ourrelationship lasted almost 15 total
years, and he's still my best friend.

(02:12):
I, I love him very much, andhe's a huge part of my life.
And so that divorce wasreally painful, right?
When, when you're going through a divorce,especially for the very first time.
This is my, not only my firstdivorce, my first big breakup.
Because we'd been together sinceI was teen we were both teenagers.
And it was devastating, but it feltlike I had a partner through it, right?
I had someone who understood.

(02:32):
I got divorced specifically atthat time because I knew that I
was queer, and our relationshipwasn't feeling authentic anymore.
And it wasn't fair to keephim in a relationship where I
wasn't, you know, authentic.
And so because that was the reasonit was, it was pretty clean.
It was clean and it wasit was really friendly.
The second one was not that way, right?
The one that is finishingup in the next eight days.

(02:53):
I think a lot of times when peoplethink about queer relationships,
that they are like more genuineor more true love, right?
We don't talk really about queer divorce.
I guess here, here's where we talk aboutqueer divorce, but in general, we don't
talk that often about how heartbreakinga queer divorce is for a lot of reasons.

(03:13):
But yeah, that one, we are not friends.
We do not talk, right.
I'm, we're, we're, I have her blockedon all my social media platforms.
It was, it was really, really terrible.
And I'm, I couldn't have hada more different experience
between the two of them.
Yeah, well I'm so glad it's so closeto being done and I know there's all
these emotions and we'll talk aboutthat too, like what it takes to rebuild

(03:35):
after that and what steps you're in.
I'm wondering, you said, youknow, we don't talk about queer
divorce, like why do you thinkwe don't in these spaces, right?
Like, divorce is so differenttoo for every single person, like
whether you're coming out, whetheryou're already in a queer marriage,
you know, all these things.
Why don't we talk about it?
I think we don't talk about queer divorcefor the same reason we don't talk about

(03:55):
really a lot of problems within thequeer community because we fight so
hard just to be seen at the same level,right, as as heterosexual couples, and
we are already working so hard to beseen and valued as equals that if we
admit even a little bit, That we havethat we have problems or issues, right?
Then we feel like we're giving up someof the, but he's a sports metaphor

(04:18):
realizing that I don't understand sports.
I probably shouldn't have gone there.
We're, we're giving up some oflike what we've earned, right?
We, we feel like it's going to, toknock us down in the eyes of the people
who already want to put us really low.
If they already see us as, as beneaththem, it's going to be something they
can use to continue to prove theirown point about how we don't deserve.
Whatever rights or whatever space.

(04:41):
Yeah, yeah, and I think it'sdisappointing, like, that we feel
like we have to be equal when it'sso different to be a queer person.
And it's, you know, frustratingthat we have to build up to that
system, right, and then we have toget divorced like a heterosexual.
We have to do all these things, and, ah,I feel like queer divorce is, you know,
you know, as hard and good as it can be.

(05:01):
Maybe it's a better process.
I don't know.
I mean, I can't say necessarilyqueer versus heterosexual.
I mean, I had both, right?
So now I can tell you as someone who'sgone through both of them, I think, I
don't know if it's, I think that it is amore emotional process for me the second
time, because it feels like I am reckoningalso with a divorce from an identity.

(05:26):
A married queer person, like ahappily married queer person, is
such this, it's this ideal, right?
You lift it up, and you use it as a wayto show people, like, look, like, I'm
healed, and I'm I've made it, right?
I have this love that all of us, right?
Even during Pride Month, we talklove is love and love is equal and
you should love whoever you want.
That love, that, that bond thatwe have with another person is

(05:48):
actually part of that identity.
Being partnered is core to whoyou are, right, as a queer person.
Like, a lot of timesfamilies won't accept you.
Until they see you partnered, they'llthink, right, it's just a phase
or, you know, maybe this is justa feeling that you have, but once
you're dating or married, then theymight see you as more legitimate.
I definitely felt that way.

(06:09):
I felt more legitimate whenI was in a partnership.
And I know that I, I rushedinto my marriage, my second
one, because it was right after.
They had struck down Roe v.
Wade, and there was talk in theSupreme Court about also then
reversing marriage equality.
And so my then partner at the timeand I were both feeling like a lot of
pressure to get married quickly justbefore that right got taken away, right?

(06:33):
And no heterosexual personhas to worry about that.
That's never something like, am I evengoing to have the right to get married?
isn't on their radar.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then yeah, it's so true as you weretalking, I was thinking about all the
different layers that it takes to bequeer and to be in a queer divorce.
And the emotional part, I thinkis something that surprised
me too when I got divorced.

(06:53):
Like I was in a heterosexualmarriage and got divorced and
came out at the same time too.
So it's like this opportunity to,Like see who I am and be who I am.
And then there's all so much lossand grief about like who I thought it
was supposed to be, but also so muchexcitement about who I get to be.
And that processes can beexcruciating in that middle space.

(07:15):
Right?
Like, I think that, yeah, I think you'reright that there's some level of that and
heterosexual divorce where you obviouslylike I've been married for 20 years, I
have kids and so you're losing what youthought you would have your life to be.
And then as a queer person, it's thatplus the shift in your identity and
being seen as somebody who's legit,like, in the eyes of society, right?

(07:38):
Like, I legitimately love, youknow, whether I'm divorced or
not, I'm still a queer person.
I love how you said about theconnection between partners and
how that's central to being queer.
Yeah, and as, as you're talking aboutit, I'm thinking, you know, why was it
so much more emotionally devastatingfor me the second time in the first
and I think the first time it did comewith that side helping of liberation

(07:59):
of feeling like I finally had theroom in the space to be who I am.
And that was.
That was wonderful, right?
And as much as it was horrible, and ithurt so deeply, and there were a lot of
things I didn't know how to do, right?
I started my relationshipwith him when I was 16.
I didn't know how to file my own taxes.

(08:19):
Like, I didn't know how to do alot of things by myself, because
I had been partnered for so long.
But yeah, that liberation of beingable to be my own person, and find
my identity as a queer person.
I didn't get to experiencethat the second time, right?
I already was who I was the secondtime around, and so I was only left
with the lack of community, right?
Feeling completely divorced not onlyfrom a person, but from all the support

(08:41):
structures that we had built together.
That's something that was, thatwas really, really hard, because
for a lot of queer people, yourcommunity is so small, right?
It's so small and so tightknit, it is, feels impossible to
unweave it after a divorce froma person in that same community.
Yeah, community is so important.

(09:03):
I think there's this loss in divorce too.
You think of family oryour other person's family.
And then a lot of time, like you'resaying in a, in a queer relationship, your
family is that extended group of friends.
And, you know, it really seems thatpeople feel like they have to take
sides and you can't do it together.
And it's just so complicated.
Also, as you were talking, thinking aboutthere's this idea that I don't know if

(09:25):
this is in the gay community as well,but in lesbian, a lesbian culture that
you get to be friends with your ex, andso there's, like, sort of this pressure
that you have to be friends with themforever, and they have to be part of your
community forever, and that is really somuch pressure when there's so much pain
in, like, the community splitting upand the, your relationship splitting up.
Yeah, that, that is an expectation.
You know, you say within thegay community, I, I'm only

(09:47):
pretty new to the gay communityas an out trans person, right?
My relationship withmy last partner, right?
Like we were, you know, for, fora long time, both, both women.
And so, like, I am very intimatelyfamiliar with I actually don't
know how to say WLW in a waythat rolls off the tongue.
And I'm used to typing it out, right?
And like, WLW, the WLW community was.

(10:10):
It was yeah, really tough.
There is this expectation that youhave to stay not just friendly,
but friends in those spaces and youjust You just don't know, right?
You don't know what's happenedin someone's relationship.
The idea of ever being friends withthat ex, ever, is like nauseating.
Like, that's not gonna happen.
And those spaces still exist, right?

(10:32):
They're still there.
They still anticipateboth of you being there.
Yeah.
Like, how do you squarethat circle, right?
How do you figure out how to continueto be social and have these support
systems if you can't even be inthe same room as another person?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Why do you think we'vecreated that expectation?
Is it because of thetight community space or?
Yeah, I just don't thinkthere are very many of us.

(10:54):
I think, you know, I was a high schoolteacher for for a decade, right?
Most of my career has beenbuilt within public education.
And so even before I came out as, asanything A lot of teenagers understood
and recognized me as being queer,and so I was the advisor for the,
the Gay Straight Alliance, right?
And it has been equal parts horrifying andcomical watching the social structures of

(11:16):
queer teenagers over the last 10 years.
And one of the things that anybody who'sbeen around queer teenagers can tell
you, there are like four lesbians in thewhole school, and they've all dated each
other, and it's just like this and wehave like a bigger version of that, right?
Where we, if you break up with someoneand they're one of six lesbians, right?
Like if you're in one of the, ifyou're lucky enough to be in one

(11:37):
of the 15 cities that still hasa lesbian bar, then that's right.
Then you maybe have a couple more.
But for the most part, right, thereare just not that many options.
And if you can't be around someone everysingle time, there's a queer event.
You're going to see them.
They're going to be there.
The same 20 people are going tobe at all these different events.
And so you have to figure out eitherhow to live there, how to deal with
it, or you have to be somewhere else.

(11:58):
Yeah, yeah.
This is just a higher demandbecause, right, there's less people,
there's less, at least openlyqueer people in most communities.
Yeah.
Now that we're talking about thislike post divorce space and this
post breakup space what, what doyou feel like are the core pieces
of what you've needed as you rebuildyour life post both of your divorces?

(12:23):
I mean, I, I'm going to tell you the,some of the darkest times and some
of the darkest moments in my lifehave been in the months after the
initiation of my most recent divorce.
I I not only stopped talking, right,to, to my ex wife, I stopped responding
to text messages as a whole, right?
I just did not know how to talkto people because all of our

(12:45):
friends were joint friends.
And it didn't feel like I knew whoI could talk to honestly and openly.
And so I think the first thing I neededwhen I was rebuilding my life was A
support structure of friends that I knewI could count on, that I knew I could
just say anything that I was feelingand they would be there to listen and
support me, because that was the thingI didn't know if I had, I didn't know

(13:09):
who was going to be there for me.
And so that was critical.
That was really important, whichagain is complicated by the shared
spaces I had right without gettingtoo specific I had a couple of
community spaces that I had to leave.
And so I wish I could haveretained at least one of them.
At least one space that I couldhave gone to regularly and counted
on a routine because all of asudden your routine is blown up.

(13:31):
You don't have breakfast the same way.
You don't come homefrom work the same way.
And I was also going through areally big transitional period at
work because I was leaving teachingafter two years of dealing with
really, really disgusting harassmentfor being a trans person, right?
And for having queer books in, ina library in, in my classroom, the

(13:51):
harassment got so intense that I hadto leave and both of those things
were happening at the same time.
And so it felt like my entireworld, right, was crashing.
Every wall was coming down.
And you know, you would get atext, someone would say like,
Hey, I haven't heard from you.
How you doing?
I have no idea how toanswer that text, right?
How do you open the doorinto that conversation?
And so a lot of thoseconversations just stopped.
They didn't continue.

(14:13):
And so rebuilding people I can trusthas been like, I think the foundational
part of finding a life again.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
And I feel like they're even no matterwhat grief you're going through.
There's this loneliness space, right?
Like you're transitioning and then ontop of that losing your entire community.
I totally connect with that.

(14:33):
I lost my whole community when I gotdivorced too and left my house with my
kids and moved to my mom's basement.
Like I was transitioning jobs.
It's like it's intense.
So many intense transitions at once.
Why do you feel like wetransition everything at once?
It does all happen at once.
It does.
And this, you know, honestly, I was,I had a conversation recently with a

(14:54):
friend who is about to go through thisprocess, who is right at the edge.
of, of ending their marriage.
And it's right as they're figuring outother stuff about themselves too, right?
Trans related things, like all ofthat, when you start to understand
yourself or the way, the way I'vetalked about it before is when you
stop practicing self denial, right?
So much of our lives is self denial.

(15:16):
As a teacher, I was in self denialwhere I worked really hard on everybody
else's needs and completely forgotthat I had any or willfully them down.
The second you let themstart to peak up, right?
You start to Accept yourself.
Embrace yourself in a little way.
It's gonna cause a chainreaction that does it in every
other corner of your life, too.

(15:36):
Right?
I changed a lot.
I stopped being vegan when I got divorced.
I, instead of being rigid in my eatingstructure, I added fish back into my life.
Which seems small, right?
But it's this, it was this hugechoice that came at the same
time that everything else did.
Because once you stop denying yourselfin one part of your life, everything else
gets clearer, which is a blessing, but italso means that your entire life explodes.

(16:00):
Right, right, you have to heal everysingle thing, and work through every
single problem, right, and you, Ifeel like there's a space where I say
a lot, like, I'm never going back, Ican't go back, right, like, once you
know, going back seems impossible.
Yeah.
That inner knowing ittakes over everything else.
It does.
Yeah, it really does.
So there's that time rightafter you got divorced.

(16:21):
I totally feel that like the beginningof like breaking up of the relationship.
I know we talked, the divorce structureis, you know, this legal process
could take forever, but it's reallylike that splitting up, that breaking
up point that makes that shift.
Now past that time as you're starting torebuild, how does that Change your outlook
on like what you want in relationshipsand what you want for your future.

(16:44):
It's definitely made me lessfocused on marriage as an end goal.
That was something that I felt inboth of my last relationships, right?
That it was something that wouldlend legitimacy to my partnership.
And I don't feel that way anymore, right?
There's, there's nothing that feelslegitimate about being married
anymore than just being in a good,honest, hardworking partnership.

(17:04):
I'm in therapy, which I highlyrecommend for anybody, right?
Friends are great.
I love having a social structure.
It's my family is really important to me.
I have, I have a partner, right?
We're living out here in the desert.
But man, having a neutral thirdparty outside perspective keeps you
from feeling crazy as you're goingthrough this process of someone

(17:25):
who has no skin in the game, right?
Who has nothing to gain.
But just wants to listen thatthat has been invaluable.
And so I would say that if anyone'sthinking, should I have a therapist?
Yes, yes, I'm sure.
Yeah, that, that, that has changedmy, my primary outlook, right.
Is that marriage is notmy end game anymore.
I'm working so much more on myown ability to process my feelings

(17:46):
and the events in my life.
I'm slowing way down too.
I had a life that was completelycrammed with, with social events.
I didn't have a free evening ever.
And I don't know if it, but partof it was just trying to not
have to think or feel about whatwasn't right in my relationship.
And now that I am not there anymore,and I'm completely separate from,

(18:07):
from that relationship, I'm ableto like slow my life way down.
And spend more time just making artand cooking and, and being with myself.
What does that process looklike for you in that, like
slowing down and being yourself?
Like, how did you decide, like,what things you wanted to do?
Did you go through this process whereyou tested out a bunch of stuff and
then you're like, okay, now I'm buyingchickens and doing art, or did you,

(18:30):
what did that process look like?
Yeah.
I mean, I, I think Idid test some stuff out.
Right.
I talked earlier about how when you'rein a queer partnership and that person
is in all the same social spaces,you can either deal with it or leave.
I left.
Like, I, I decided that it was notworth trying to untangle, right,
the messy cord of that relationship.

(18:50):
And it was, it was very fortuitous,I think, that it happened at the same
time that I was leaving this job.
And so I just literally leftthe county and went somewhere
completely different and new.
And very isolated.
We, we live in the desert, right?
Which is not a very populated area.
And so having this space, likehaving a big empty house to fill with
things and then to figure out how Iwanted to spend my, my time as I was

(19:12):
figuring out what comes next, I did.
I cycled through a bunch of littlehobbies to see what I enjoy doing.
And we've settled on art, whichI already knew was a huge part
of my my process emotionally.
That's what got me through thelockdown when I was teaching from home.
And cooking.
I'm back into baking a lot ofthings and cooking and chickens.

(19:32):
Yes.
Raising chickens has been very rewarding.
And then most recently a dogwandered onto our property.
And so now I'm training aHusky with no experience.
In a rogue husky that's alreadyproven that he can survive
on his own in the desert.
So it's a tough, it's a tough sell.
Tough sell.
I think I connect a lot with thatidea of like trying things out and

(19:55):
seeing how it works and how it feels.
How did that work for youin the community building?
Like you're, you're building upthese new relationships and trusts.
Like what things did youlook for in new friendships?
Like what signs were you like.
That's a good one.
That's not a good one.
You know, what, how'd that work for you?
Well, I, in the past have built myfriendships from community spaces, right?

(20:16):
So I would join somethingor start something.
And then there would be a lot ofpeople there and I would kind of
pick right from the group, justfigure out who you vibe with.
And out here, you can't really do that.
There aren't community spaces like that.
And so it's been a lotmore singular, right?
Some of it has beenrekindling old friendships.
So friendships that I've had for a longtime that were either superficial or
we had not had a lot of time together,really, really reinvesting in those.

(20:40):
And then in, in this space,honestly, has been letting go
of only having queer friends.
That was something that was true for meas I was understanding myself, right?
When I first started learning whoI was, it was so important to me to
have almost exclusively queer Or morespecifically, trans friendships, because
I wanted to build up those spaces.
And I still do.
I still want to have aqueer and a trans family.

(21:02):
But letting go of that, and justbeing open to making friends.
wherever they are and whateverexperiences they've had or they have.
My, my two favorite examples of that isthat I'm really good friends now with our
neighbor, who is a, you know, north of 70sold hippie living with his wife out here.
Like, he is so fun and Ilove making that friendship.

(21:22):
And then we also have some newart friends who are also much
older than us and I'm living.
In the small mountain communityabout 20 minutes away.
And so finding friendships with otherpeople who are in our like same physical
space but aren't necessarily a part of thequeer community has really freed me up.

(21:44):
into having a more wellrounded social space.
Yeah, it sounds like you're doing thework to understand who you are as a whole
and who can be around you as a whole andthat one identity is overcoming, right?
I was thinking about the difference,and we've talked a lot about this,
like, how we're rebuilding andhow our queer identity affects us.

(22:06):
How have you, in that space too, like, asyou embrace yourself, like, also embrace
your trans identity and, you know Howyou're feeling and how do you, yeah,
you talked a little bit about that, buthow do you balance those two and how
are you working towards embracing that?
Well, what's happened with my, my transidentity recently is something that
I never thought would happen, right?
I started testosterone abouta year ago and for a long time

(22:30):
I thought I would never pass.
Right?
And so passing, if anyone who's listeningdoesn't know what passing means, it's when
you're trans and you're far enough along,right, in your medical transition journey,
that people who meet you have no ideathey're talking to a trans person, right?
And that was never a goal forme when I first started, right?
It was all about understandingmy own sense of myself and
in my own internal identity.

(22:51):
But the more.
I started transitioning passingbecame very, very exciting.
It was something that I realized peoplewho meet me now, being trans isn't
the first thing they learn about me.
It's not something they already know.
And so, that has been wild.
Like I told you I madefriends with my neighbor.
He found out I was trans,like, a week ago, right?

(23:13):
We've been here for months.
And so, this new part in my transjourney does feel very aligned.
With the ending of mylast marriage, right?
And the moving to a new place,and the leaving of my job, right?
We talk about the entirelife flows up at once.
Getting to understand my own identityalmost outside of being trans.
Like who, who am I if I'm just me, right?

(23:36):
Instead of being a personwho whose identity is, is so
central, right, to who they are.
And so, that process, I feellike, has become more possible.
Because I'm outside of that marriage now,because, because all my community isn't
around being queer, because I'm in aplace where people don't know who I am.

(23:58):
It feels like I've been allowed theopportunity to figure out what the
next stage of my life looks like.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel as you're saying it, I feel likeI can feel the freeness in that, right?
Like the freeness and like becomingwhole and being able to find that space.
And yeah, we're all more than one part.
And like, I feel like divorce, youknow, any type of big transition

(24:20):
offers you that opportunity to findyour whole parts, all of your parts.
And I feel like you're embracingthat as you leave your divorce
and finding your new space.
Yeah.
And I mean, it's, it's as, as wonderfuland joyful as it is, it's also right.
It's.
There's some mourning involved as well.
We've talked about thatwith, with divorces that you
have this new liberation.
So in passing, that's very liberating.

(24:41):
I can go to Lowe's and not worryabout outright getting, getting
clocked by, by some guy buyingwood in the lumber section.
Right.
But at the same time, that meansalso I feel a little disconnected
from queer people in the wild.
And like, I just went camping.
We were camping over the weekend.
And we saw a lesbian couple that hada queer flag on the hood of their car.

(25:04):
And I realized I was not visibly queerenough to yell as I was passing by, right?
Like, that might be seenas like, aggressive.
And I didn't want to makethem feel unsafe, so I didn't.
And so there was this momentof connection that passed.
That I wasn't able to grab ontobecause I'm not visibly queer anymore.
So there's There's this excitementand exhilaration that's mostly
to do with safety, right?
I don't have to worry about someoneimmediately recognizing that I'm queer.

(25:27):
But at the same time, that was somethingthat was so connective for so long that
allowed me to find so many people thathave been an integral part of my life.
And so, it's both things.
Just like divorce.
It's both things.
You can, you can find that joy and thatliberation, but it's also, it's also sad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think through any transition, bothof these things exist and it's wild.

(25:48):
And some days where you can feel happy,then you're sad, then you're feeling
disappointed, then you're feeling great.
You know, there's like, and every time Italk to anybody about this, we're like,
it's a rollercoaster and all these things.
I think we need to remember that.
I feel like as a human, we'reembracing the idea that we can have
more than one emotion at a time.
And as we rebuild, it's important to.
Identify that, and I feel likethat's a new trend, honestly.

(26:10):
Like, hopefully it's not a trend,but we didn't talk about emotions
like that growing up, right?
Like, this is a whole new world we'reexisting in, and a whole new free,
amazing world when we start talkingabout our emotions and identifying
and existing in all the spaces.
Yeah, and embracing the, the oxymoronicquality of some of those emotions, right?

(26:32):
They feel like you can'thave them at the same time.
They feel contradictory.
You couldn't possibly feel both things.
But not only do you feel boththings, things, you feel them at
the same time and you feel themin the same part of your body.
And it's very confusing.
Which is why art and baking andchicken rearing are highly recommended.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Those moments of mindfulness andconnecting with your body and yourself.

(26:54):
Yes.
Exactly.
Wonderful.
So in this stage of yourlife, what is next for you?
Like what things are you excited about,hopeful for, you know, all those things.
I feel like I've been asking myselfthat question for like six months.
What's next, right.
What's the next thing.
And I'm.
Honestly, I'm trying so hard not tothink so far in the future that I don't

(27:15):
appreciate where I'm at right now,like, I'm in such a good spot right now,
where every morning, right, is slow,and I can make breakfast intentionally,
and I go outside, and I can wander outthere with my dogs and my chickens,
and I can just feel comfortable.
Present.
And so this what's what's next.
There are a lot of things right thatI'm that I'm working on that I hope

(27:37):
will work out, but I'm trying so hardnot to root myself in them anymore
because I think that being afraid of thefuture or being to living too much in
the future is what got me into my firsttwo divorces, which is, you know, being
so worried about how people are seeingthe experience that I'm having, right?
Or, or how I'm feeling in that spacethat I need to push into the next thing.

(27:59):
So I'm, I'm trying so hard toslow down and stay here, right?
Stay in this moment where I'm makinglittle videos for the internet,
and I'm making lemon meringuepies, and trying to stay still.
That's beautiful.
Really seriously.
Also thinking about like all ofthe stuff it takes to get through

(28:22):
this moment, like contentmentsounds like the best goal, right?
Like contentment and being present.
And then from there, it's easy tothen be like, okay, what is next?
Right.
Because you can see physicallywhat's next from that space and
you can know what feels good andyou can be present in your body.
And that is an amazing goal.
An amazing goal.

(28:43):
I think, right, making plans too,right, is something that has caused
so much anxiety for me for so long.
And even as you askedthat, right, what's next?
I had like six million things thatI was thinking about, like so many
different pokers in the fire thatI'm trying to make into something.
And I'm like, why am I working sohard on the next thing when I'm,
when I'm happy now, when I'm happyand content and good right now.

(29:05):
When my morning was really soft and reallyslow, and my partner and I had chai tea
in our kitchen and danced to the newHosier EP, right, like, why not just live
in that space, instead of worrying aboutthe next thing that I'm going to do.
Yes.
Yes, I can.

(29:26):
That's amazing.
Yeah.
I don't know what else to say to that.
So well said.
I feel like that soundslike a glorious space.
I want to be in that space.
There's guilt in it.
There's guilt, right?
There's a guilt thatcomes with being happy.
If you've spent so long rightback in the space of self denial,
where you think that you're goingto improve other people's lives,
there's by martyring yourself, right?

(29:48):
Or by or by suffering like, Oh, if Ijust suffer through this relationship
to make this other person happy, or if Ijust suffer through this job, or if I'm,
if I'm happy, that means I'm not givingup enough of myself to somebody else.
And that's not true.
You don't actually serveanybody by being miserable.
No one is benefited by, by you, youknow, giving of yourself so much

(30:11):
that there's nothing of you left.
And I, even right now, right,as I'm describing this happy
life, I know I'm living it.
I know I'm having a good time andI still feel that tug of guilt.
That someone won't have that opportunity,right, can't just slow down, can't
just not be in a job, can't just getout of the space that they're in.
And I'm trying to remember that justbecause not everybody has access to

(30:32):
peace, that I should deny myself thatthat fleeting opportunity to be content.
Yes, that.
That culture of martyrdom and especiallyin relationships and partnership.
And yes, I love how you saidthat, like denying yourself
doesn't bring anybody else peace.
You're just denying yourself.
Right.
And really our goal, especiallyI know everything I'm like,

(30:55):
go back to the patriarchy.
But if you think about it, like theidea of like how we rebuild society is
all of us feeling whole and content.
And then from there using our power,because we now have some power.
Because we understand ourselves to connectand build community outside of that.
And I feel like that is anamazing spot we could all work
from and, you know, rebuild from.

(31:16):
Yeah, this is, I mean, that's somethingI've been thinking about recently when
it comes specifically to trans spaces.
I had a bad experience recentlygoing to a speaking event where I
was not treated especially well bythe people who were putting it on,
and other trans people who were theredid not have a really great time.
It was rough.
And then, a week later, I went toan event specifically for trans
people, like, in West Hollywood,right, which is, like, queer mecca.

(31:39):
So it was in West Hollywood.
And the event was so centeredaround, lifting up trans
people in the smallest ways.
It wasn't about political overhaul.
It wasn't about like long termliberation from capitalism.
Those things are important.
It's hard to do that in twohours right at an event.
And so the event had massagetables and food and had resources

(31:59):
for mental health, right?
It had the things that queer peopleneed to survive and to be happy
right now, because that is the thing.
Right.
Long term that is going to makeour identities and our lives
survivable is feeling cared forby our community in a larger way.
So if you're asking right long termplans, like 10 years down the line.
I would love love love love to have aretreat center very specifically for

(32:24):
like right people who are getting outof divorces are getting out of bad
situations right who need a caringspace to just exist and to live in that
contentment and that peace for a littlewhile and to feel cared for and safe.
Oh, yes.
It's everything starts with.
Us in the moment of feeling careand you know, that really heals

(32:46):
and repairs the loneliness feelingwe have, the grief we have.
And yeah, you're right.
There's not like one big solution orfix that we can, you know, that we can
connect with, but really that solutionand that fix, you know, even me just
saying that there's not one, but it is,it's like that contentment, that care,
that finding yourself in that space.
Yeah.
So beautiful and lovely.
Like, I can't stop saying that enough.

(33:06):
It sounds so peaceful and amazing.
So good.
I mean, there's Probably one of my mostpopular recent videos I did, I was talking
about you know, having left teaching andnow taking care of chickens on a property.
People ask if I'm okay, right?
They're like, are you okay?
This is so different, right?
From what you were doing before.
I found fulfillment in the classroom.
I'm going to carry thatfulfillment with me forever.

(33:27):
But I said that.
You know, now I'm living one of thethree primary queer fantasies, right?
Most queer people either wantthe coffee shop slash performance
space slash bookshop that they canrun, or they want the homestead
or they want the commune, right?
Where all their friendscan come and live together.
And the thing that, that bindsall those fantasies together

(33:47):
is that we just want peace.
We want to be cared for.
We want to be in community.
We want to feel soft, right?
We want to have days ofwarm sunshine with nothing.
in front of us that we have to accomplish.
We want to just feel connectedto each other and safe.
And so, right, like,that's, that's what this is.
This is a place where you canplant things and watch them,

(34:09):
like my wildflowers are growing.
Cilantro is just poking upthrough the soil right now.
And there's a kind of fulfillment in that.
That you can't have reallyanywhere else that being able to,
to rest and to grow in, in peace.
So as you're thinking about all ofthat and finding this space, if you're

(34:30):
talking right now to somebody who iseither just thinking about divorce or
isn't that messy time that we talkedabout that feels so lonely and so hard.
Like, what do you feel like is the.
The best advice you could give them.
Well, I mean, I had to give thisadvice pretty recently, right?
I said, I was talking to, I'm at,I'm at that point in my life too.
And my, my early thirties were alot of us are right on the edge

(34:52):
of, of big major life changes.
We always think thingsare going to last forever.
If you'd asked me at 21, if I was theperson I'm going to be at 40, I would
have said, yeah, like, of course I'mfinally figured out and we don't, we
don't plan for how much our lives aregoing to change and how often that will
happen, I'm sure I will go through.
More transitions as I, as I get older,but I think the advice is that once

(35:14):
you, once you have that internal knowingand you act on it, right, once you
say the thing that feels unsayable,and you look at your partner and you
say like, this, this isn't right.
We shouldn't be together anymore.
Everything afterward, at least frommy perspective was easier because even
though everything was challenging, right?

(35:35):
Like, even though splitting up your stuffand figuring out where you're going to
live, like all of that stuff is hard.
Nothing felt harder to me than justreckoning with the inner knowing
because at least I had the reliefthat I was carrying through, right?
Everything else will sort itself out.
You will figure it out.
You will be a happier, moreconnected person on the other side.

(35:56):
But once you say it, right, onceyou say the thing that feels
unsayable, Everything else fallsout in the way it's supposed to.
Reckoning with your inner knowinglove that statement and that idea.
And you're right.
It's so much like, I feel like I connectwith that in my experience so much.
Like every time somebody askedme how you're doing, I was like,

(36:17):
the work I'm doing is to healand define my authentic self.
The work I'm doing is to healand find my authentic self.
And in order to do both of those thingslearned over time is that I cannot
do that unless I trust the truth.
My intuition, once I trust my innerknowing and finding that space.
And yeah, I feel like that's so right on.
It's this love that we're bringingit down to the basics, right?

(36:38):
Like it's not the basics because it takesa fucking long time to get to that space.
And it's not part of our cultureto understand our inner knowing
or to like connect with it.
But it really is the piece that You know,helps you feel less lonely helps you feel
like you got what you need and you knowyou're heading in the right direction.
And that that inner knowing rightthat intuition that's a muscle, right

(36:59):
it's not something that you're born.
Having exercised you your innerknowing is something you have to
develop and trust in little bits.
As you get older and older rightand it slowly builds up into
something that you can rely on.
And so it's hard if you'renot used to using it.
If it's a muscle that's atrophied, right?
Or you've been ignoring it for so long.

(37:19):
You don't know if it can hold upthe weight of what you're about
to put yourself through, but you,you can, and it'll get stronger.
Yeah, you can do it.
We can do it.
And if you're listening to a podcastcalled the Queer Divorce Podcast,
you're probably on your way.
First step, you're listening.
You're here.
Yeah.

(37:40):
Well, thank you for being here andfor sharing your wisdom and your
story and being so vulnerable.
And I appreciate so much.
I've gleaned so much out of thisconversation and I'm sure everybody
who's listening will as well.
Thank you.
I really appreciate it.
This is my first timereally talking about this.
And it was a great space to getto talk through these feelings.
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that with us.
And if listeners, as if you wantto find more Flint videos on

(38:03):
Instagram go to just Flint is fine.
That's your Instagram.
And yeah, I hope everybody connects andI appreciate you so much and I hope you
enjoy the rest of your soft, amazing day.
Thank you so much.
Hi, Flint.
Welcome to the Queer Divorce Club.
Thank you so much for having me on.

(38:25):
I'm so excited to talk today and get toknow your story a little bit more, and I
appreciate you sharing it with everybody.
To get us started, can you give us aglimpse of just where you're at today?
Well, physically, I'm on a farm in themiddle of the California high desert.
And I'm, we've been out here fora few months and yeah, it's great.
I, we've been keeping chickens andjust got a new dog and it's just a,

(38:46):
a general funny farm of animals andpeople and mentally I'm doing great.
My divorce is finalizing in eightdays, so I can imagine people who
are listening to this podcast aregenerally familiar with how long and
arduous that process can sometimes be.
And so I'm feeling very relievedthat it's almost Completely closed.

(39:08):
So close.
That's so close.
It's awesome.
I have to ask, do youhave a favorite chicken?
Like you, you've only been a fewmonths with them, but have you
gotten a favorite one already?
Yeah, I mean, I absolutelyhave a favorite chicken.
I, I, there's only one who'sproducing eggs for us right now.
And so I think Sharon gets aleg up on everyone else because
she's pulling her weight.

(39:29):
And nobody else's.
But if I'm completely honest, the verysmallest chicken who's got a really
wonky twisty beak is very affectionate.
Her name is Mrs.
Puff and that's my favorite chicken.
Adorable.
Adorable.
Chickens are adorable andso messy and I love it.
Oh yeah, and smelly.
All right.
So you're eight days away fromyour second divorce, right?

(39:52):
Can you explain a little bit ofthat journey and both divorces
and how each one was different?
Sure.
Yeah, my, my divorces couldn'thave been more different.
And when the second one was rolling aroundand I saw it coming, I started feeling a
little bit like, Ross from friends, right?
Like I felt like I wasjust collecting divorces.
But they all happened at completelydifferent times in my life.

(40:13):
The first one I got married whenI was 22 before I understood
myself as queer really in any way.
I married a guy right out of collegeand we were together actually
Starting when I was 15, so ourrelationship lasted almost 15 total
years, and he's still my best friend.
I, I love him very much, andhe's a huge part of my life.
And so that divorce wasreally painful, right?

(40:35):
When, when you're going through a divorce,especially for the very first time.
This is my, not only my firstdivorce, my first big breakup.
Because we'd been together sinceI was teen we were both teenagers.
And it was devastating, but it feltlike I had a partner through it, right?
I had someone who understood.
I got divorced specifically atthat time because I knew that I
was queer, and our relationshipwasn't feeling authentic anymore.

(40:56):
And it wasn't fair to keephim in a relationship where I
wasn't, you know, authentic.
And so because that was the reasonit was, it was pretty clean.
It was clean and it wasit was really friendly.
The second one was not that way, right?
The one that is finishingup in the next eight days.
I think a lot of times when peoplethink about queer relationships,
that they are like more genuineor more true love, right?

(41:19):
We don't talk really about queer divorce.
I guess here, here's where we talk aboutqueer divorce, but in general, we don't
talk that often about how heartbreakinga queer divorce is for a lot of reasons.
But yeah, that one, we are not friends.
We do not talk, right.
I'm, we're, we're, I have her blockedon all my social media platforms.
It was, it was really, really terrible.

(41:41):
And I'm, I couldn't have hada more different experience
between the two of them.
Yeah, well I'm so glad it's so closeto being done and I know there's all
these emotions and we'll talk aboutthat too, like what it takes to rebuild
after that and what steps you're in.
I'm wondering, you said, youknow, we don't talk about queer
divorce, like why do you thinkwe don't in these spaces, right?
Like, divorce is so differenttoo for every single person, like

(42:04):
whether you're coming out, whetheryou're already in a queer marriage,
you know, all these things.
Why don't we talk about it?
I think we don't talk about queer divorcefor the same reason we don't talk about
really a lot of problems within thequeer community because we fight so
hard just to be seen at the same level,right, as as heterosexual couples, and
we are already working so hard to beseen and valued as equals that if we

(42:26):
admit even a little bit, That we havethat we have problems or issues, right?
Then we feel like we're giving up someof the, but he's a sports metaphor
realizing that I don't understand sports.
I probably shouldn't have gone there.
We're, we're giving up some oflike what we've earned, right?
We, we feel like it's going to, toknock us down in the eyes of the people
who already want to put us really low.

(42:48):
If they already see us as, as beneaththem, it's going to be something they
can use to continue to prove theirown point about how we don't deserve.
Whatever rights or whatever space.
Yeah, yeah, and I think it'sdisappointing, like, that we feel
like we have to be equal when it'sso different to be a queer person.
And it's, you know, frustratingthat we have to build up to that

(43:09):
system, right, and then we have toget divorced like a heterosexual.
We have to do all these things, and, ah,I feel like queer divorce is, you know,
you know, as hard and good as it can be.
Maybe it's a better process.
I don't know.
I mean, I can't say necessarilyqueer versus heterosexual.
I mean, I had both, right?
So now I can tell you as someone who'sgone through both of them, I think, I

(43:32):
don't know if it's, I think that it is amore emotional process for me the second
time, because it feels like I am reckoningalso with a divorce from an identity.
A married queer person, like ahappily married queer person, is
such this, it's this ideal, right?
You lift it up, and you use it as a wayto show people, like, look, like, I'm

(43:53):
healed, and I'm I've made it, right?
I have this love that all of us, right?
Even during Pride Month, we talklove is love and love is equal and
you should love whoever you want.
That love, that, that bond thatwe have with another person is
actually part of that identity.
Being partnered is core to whoyou are, right, as a queer person.
Like, a lot of timesfamilies won't accept you.

(44:16):
Until they see you partnered, they'llthink, right, it's just a phase
or, you know, maybe this is justa feeling that you have, but once
you're dating or married, then theymight see you as more legitimate.
I definitely felt that way.
I felt more legitimate whenI was in a partnership.
And I know that I, I rushedinto my marriage, my second
one, because it was right after.
They had struck down Roe v.

(44:37):
Wade, and there was talk in theSupreme Court about also then
reversing marriage equality.
And so my then partner at the timeand I were both feeling like a lot of
pressure to get married quickly justbefore that right got taken away, right?
And no heterosexual personhas to worry about that.
That's never something like, am I evengoing to have the right to get married?

(44:59):
Yeah, yeah.
And then yeah, it's so true.
As you were talking, I was thinking aboutall the different layers that it takes
to be queer and to be in a queer divorce.
And the emotional part, I thinkis something that surprised
me too when I got divorced.
Like I was in a heterosexualmarriage and got divorced and
came out at the same time too.
So it's like this opportunity to,Like see who I am and be who I am.

(45:21):
And then there's all so much lossand grief about like who I thought it
was supposed to be, but also so muchexcitement about who I get to be.
And that processes can beexcruciating in that middle space.
Right?
Like, I think that, yeah, I think you'reright that there's some level of that and
heterosexual divorce where you obviouslylike I've been married for 20 years, I

(45:41):
have kids and so you're losing what youthought you would have your life to be.
And then as a queer person, it's thatplus the shift in your identity and
being seen as somebody who's legit,like, in the eyes of society, right?
Like, I legitimately love, youknow, whether I'm divorced or
not, I'm still a queer person.
I love how you said about theconnection between partners and

(46:03):
how that's central to being queer.
Yeah, and as, as you're talking aboutit, I'm thinking, you know, why was it
so much more emotionally devastatingfor me the second time in the first
and I think the first time it did comewith that side helping of liberation
of feeling like I finally had theroom in the space to be who I am.
And that was.

(46:24):
That was wonderful, right?
And as much as it was horrible, and ithurt so deeply, and there were a lot of
things I didn't know how to do, right?
I started my relationshipwith him when I was 16.
I didn't know how to file my own taxes.
Like, I didn't know how to do alot of things by myself, because
I had been partnered for so long.
But yeah, that liberation of beingable to be my own person, and find

(46:46):
my identity as a queer person.
I didn't get to experiencethat the second time, right?
I already was who I was the secondtime around, and so I was only left
with the lack of community, right?
Feeling completely divorced not onlyfrom a person, but from all the support
structures that we had built together.
That's something that was, thatwas really, really hard, because
for a lot of queer people, yourcommunity is so small, right?

(47:09):
It's so small and so tightknit, it is, feels impossible to
unweave it after a divorce froma person in that same community.
Yeah, community is so important.
I think there's this loss in divorce too.
You think of family oryour other person's family.
And then a lot of time, like you'resaying in a, in a queer relationship, your
family is that extended group of friends.

(47:30):
And, you know, it really seems thatpeople feel like they have to take
sides and you can't do it together.
And it's just so complicated.
Also, as you were talking, thinking aboutthere's this idea that I don't know if
this is in the gay community as well,but in lesbian, a lesbian culture that
you get to be friends with your ex, andso there's, like, sort of this pressure
that you have to be friends with themforever, and they have to be part of your

(47:52):
community forever, and that is really somuch pressure when there's so much pain
in, like, the community splitting upand the, your relationship splitting up.
Yeah, that, that is an expectation.
You know, you say within thegay community, I, I'm only
pretty new to the gay communityas an out trans person, right?
My relationship withmy last partner, right?
Like we were, you know, for, fora long time, both, both women.

(48:14):
And so, like, I am very intimatelyfamiliar with I actually don't
know how to say WLW in a waythat rolls off the tongue.
And I'm used to typing it out, right?
And like, WLW, the WLW community was.
It was yeah, really tough.
There is this expectation that youhave to stay not just friendly,
but friends in those spaces and youjust You just don't know, right?

(48:38):
You don't know what's happenedin someone's relationship.
The idea of ever being friends withthat ex, ever, is like nauseating.
Like, that's not gonna happen.
And those spaces still exist, right?
They're still there.
They still anticipateboth of you being there.
Yeah.
Like, how do you squarethat circle, right?
How do you figure out how to continueto be social and have these support

(48:59):
systems if you can't even be inthe same room as another person?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Why do you think we'vecreated that expectation?
Is it because of thetight community space or?
Yeah, I just don't thinkthere are very many of us.
I think, you know, I was a high schoolteacher for for a decade, right?
Most of my career has beenbuilt within public education.
And so even before I came out as, asanything A lot of teenagers understood

(49:22):
and recognized me as being queer,and so I was the advisor for the,
the Gay Straight Alliance, right?
And it has been equal parts horrifying andcomical watching the social structures of
queer teenagers over the last 10 years.
And one of the things that anybody who'sbeen around queer teenagers can tell
you, there are like four lesbians in thewhole school, and they've all dated each

(49:43):
other, and it's just like this and wehave like a bigger version of that, right?
Where we, if you break up with someoneand they're one of six lesbians, right?
Like if you're in one of the, ifyou're lucky enough to be in one
of the 15 cities that still hasa lesbian bar, then that's right.
Then you maybe have a couple more.
But for the most part, right, thereare just not that many options.
And if you can't be around someone everysingle time, there's a queer event.

(50:07):
You're going to see them.
They're going to be there.
The same 20 people are going tobe at all these different events.
And so you have to figure out eitherhow to live there, how to deal with
it, or you have to be somewhere else.
Yeah, yeah.
This is just a higher demandbecause, right, there's less people,
there's less, at least openlyqueer people in most communities.
Yeah.
Now that we're talking about thislike post divorce space and this

(50:27):
post breakup space what, what doyou feel like are the core pieces
of what you've needed as you rebuildyour life post both of your divorces?
I mean, I, I'm going to tell you the,some of the darkest times and some
of the darkest moments in my lifehave been in the months after the

(50:50):
initiation of my most recent divorce.
I I not only stopped talking, right,to, to my ex wife, I stopped responding
to text messages as a whole, right?
I just did not know how to talkto people because all of our
friends were joint friends.
And it didn't feel like I knew whoI could talk to honestly and openly.
And so I think the first thing I neededwhen I was rebuilding my life was A

(51:14):
support structure of friends that I knewI could count on, that I knew I could
just say anything that I was feelingand they would be there to listen and
support me, because that was the thingI didn't know if I had, I didn't know
who was going to be there for me.
And so that was critical.
That was really important, whichagain is complicated by the shared
spaces I had right without gettingtoo specific I had a couple of

(51:37):
community spaces that I had to leave.
And so I wish I could haveretained at least one of them.
At least one space that I couldhave gone to regularly and counted
on a routine because all of asudden your routine is blown up.
You don't have breakfast the same way.
You don't come homefrom work the same way.
And I was also going through areally big transitional period at
work because I was leaving teachingafter two years of dealing with

(51:59):
really, really disgusting harassmentfor being a trans person, right?
And for having queer books in, ina library in, in my classroom, the
harassment got so intense that I hadto leave and both of those things
were happening at the same time.
And so it felt like my entireworld, right, was crashing.
Every wall was coming down.
And you know, you would get atext, someone would say like,

(52:21):
Hey, I haven't heard from you.
How you doing?
I have no idea how toanswer that text, right?
How do you open the doorinto that conversation?
And so a lot of thoseconversations just stopped.
They didn't continue.
And so rebuilding people I can trusthas been like, I think the foundational
part of finding a life again.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
And I feel like they're even no matterwhat grief you're going through.

(52:43):
There's this loneliness space, right?
Like you're transitioning and then ontop of that losing your entire community.
I totally connect with that.
I lost my whole community when I gotdivorced too and left my house with my
kids and moved to my mom's basement.
Like I was transitioning jobs.
It's like it's intense.
So many intense transitions at once.

(53:03):
Why do you feel like wetransition everything at once?
It does all happen at once.
It does.
And this, you know, honestly, I was,I had a conversation recently with a
friend who is about to go through thisprocess, who is right at the edge.
of, of ending their marriage.
And it's right as they're figuring outother stuff about themselves too, right?
Trans related things, like all ofthat, when you start to understand

(53:27):
yourself or the way, the way I'vetalked about it before is when you
stop practicing self denial, right?
So much of our lives is self denial.
As a teacher, I was in self denialwhere I worked really hard on everybody
else's needs and completely forgotthat I had any or willfully them down.
The second you let themstart to peak up, right?
You start to Accept yourself.

(53:47):
Embrace yourself in a little way.
It's gonna cause a chainreaction that does it in every
other corner of your life, too.
Right?
I changed a lot.
I stopped being vegan when I got divorced.
I, instead of being rigid in my eatingstructure, I added fish back into my life.
Which seems small, right?
But it's this, it was this hugechoice that came at the same

(54:07):
time that everything else did.
Because once you stop denying yourselfin one part of your life, everything else
gets clearer, which is a blessing, but italso means that your entire life explodes.
Right, right, you have to heal everysingle thing, and work through every
single problem, right, and you, Ifeel like there's a space where I say
a lot, like, I'm never going back, Ican't go back, right, like, once you

(54:28):
know, going back seems impossible.
Yeah.
That inner knowing ittakes over everything else.
It does.
Yeah, it really does.
So there's that time rightafter you got divorced.
I totally feel that like the beginningof like breaking up of the relationship.
I know we talked, the divorce structureis, you know, this legal process
could take forever, but it's reallylike that splitting up, that breaking

(54:49):
up point that makes that shift.
Now past that time as you're starting torebuild, how does that Change your outlook
on like what you want in relationshipsand what you want for your future.
It's definitely made me lessfocused on marriage as an end goal.
That was something that I felt inboth of my last relationships, right?
That it was something that wouldlend legitimacy to my partnership.

(55:12):
And I don't feel that way anymore, right?
There's, there's nothing that feelslegitimate about being married
anymore than just being in a good,honest, hardworking partnership.
I'm in therapy, which I highlyrecommend for anybody, right?
Friends are great.
I love having a social structure.
It's my family is really important to me.
I have, I have a partner, right?
We're living out here in the desert.

(55:33):
But man, having a neutral thirdparty outside perspective keeps you
from feeling crazy as you're goingthrough this process of someone
who has no skin in the game, right?
Who has nothing to gain.
But just wants to listen thatthat has been invaluable.
And so I would say that if anyone'sthinking, should I have a therapist?
Yes, yes, I'm sure.

(55:55):
Yeah, that, that, that has changedmy, my primary outlook, right.
Is that marriage is notmy end game anymore.
I'm working so much more on myown ability to process my feelings
and the events in my life.
I'm slowing way down too.
I had a life that was completelycrammed with, with social events.
I didn't have a free evening ever.
And I don't know if it, but partof it was just trying to not

(56:16):
have to think or feel about whatwasn't right in my relationship.
And now that I am not there anymore,and I'm completely separate from,
from that relationship, I'm ableto like slow my life way down.
And spend more time just making artand cooking and, and being with myself.
What does that process looklike for you in that, like

(56:37):
slowing down and being yourself?
Like, how did you decide, like,what things you wanted to do?
Did you go through this process whereyou tested out a bunch of stuff and
then you're like, okay, now I'm buyingchickens and doing art, or did you,
what did that process look like?
Yeah.
I mean, I, I think Idid test some stuff out.
Right.
I talked earlier about how when you'rein a queer partnership and that person

(56:57):
is in all the same social spaces,you can either deal with it or leave.
I left.
Like, I, I decided that it was notworth trying to untangle, right,
the messy cord of that relationship.
And it was, it was very fortuitous,I think, that it happened at the same
time that I was leaving this job.
And so I just literally leftthe county and went somewhere
completely different and new.
And very isolated.

(57:18):
We, we live in the desert, right?
Which is not a very populated area.
And so having this space, likehaving a big empty house to fill with
things and then to figure out how Iwanted to spend my, my time as I was
figuring out what comes next, I did.
I cycled through a bunch of littlehobbies to see what I enjoy doing.
And we've settled on art, whichI already knew was a huge part

(57:39):
of my my process emotionally.
That's what got me through thelockdown when I was teaching from home.
And cooking.
I'm back into baking a lot ofthings and cooking and chickens.
Yes.
Raising chickens has been very rewarding.
And then most recently a dogwandered onto our property.
And so now I'm training aHusky with no experience.

(57:59):
In a rogue husky that's alreadyproven that he can survive
on his own in the desert.
So it's a tough, it's a tough sell.
Tough sell.
I think I connect a lot with thatidea of like trying things out and
seeing how it works and how it feels.
How did that work for youin the community building?
Like you're, you're building upthese new relationships and trusts.

(58:19):
Like what things did youlook for in new friendships?
Like what signs were you like.
That's a good one.
That's not a good one.
You know, what, how'd that work for you?
Well, I, in the past have built myfriendships from community spaces, right?
So I would join somethingor start something.
And then there would be a lot ofpeople there and I would kind of
pick right from the group, justfigure out who you vibe with.

(58:41):
And out here, you can't really do that.
There aren't community spaces like that.
And so it's been a lotmore singular, right?
Some of it has beenrekindling old friendships.
So friendships that I've had for a longtime that were either superficial or
we had not had a lot of time together,really, really reinvesting in those.
And then in, in this space,honestly, has been letting go
of only having queer friends.

(59:03):
That was something that was true for meas I was understanding myself, right?
When I first started learning whoI was, it was so important to me to
have almost exclusively queer Or morespecifically, trans friendships, because
I wanted to build up those spaces.
And I still do.
I still want to have aqueer and a trans family.
But letting go of that, and justbeing open to making friends.

(59:24):
wherever they are and whateverexperiences they've had or they have.
My, my two favorite examples of that isthat I'm really good friends now with our
neighbor, who is a, you know, north of 70sold hippie living with his wife out here.
Like, he is so fun and Ilove making that friendship.
And then we also have some newart friends who are also much

(59:44):
older than us and I'm living.
In the small mountain communityabout 20 minutes away.
And so finding friendships with otherpeople who are in our like same physical
space but aren't necessarily a part of thequeer community has really freed me up.
into having a more wellrounded social space.

(01:00:06):
Yeah, it sounds like you're doing thework to understand who you are as a whole
and who can be around you as a whole andthat one identity is overcoming, right?
I was thinking about the difference,and we've talked a lot about this,
like, how we're rebuilding andhow our queer identity affects us.
How have you, in that space too, like,as you embrace yourself, like, also

(01:00:28):
embrace your trans identity and Howyou're feeling and how do you, yeah,
you talked a little bit about that, buthow do you balance those two and how
are you working towards embracing that?
Well, what's happened with my, my transidentity recently is something that
I never thought would happen, right?
I started testosterone abouta year ago and for a long time
I thought I would never pass.

(01:00:50):
Right?
And so passing, if anyone who's listeningdoesn't know what passing means, it's when
you're trans and you're far enough along,right, in your medical transition journey,
that people who meet you have no ideathey're talking to a trans person, right?
And that was never a goal forme when I first started, right?
It was all about understandingmy own sense of myself and
in my own internal identity.
But the more.

(01:01:10):
I started transitioning passingbecame very, very exciting.
It was something that I realized peoplewho meet me now, being trans isn't
the first thing they learn about me.
It's not something they already know.
And so, that has been wild.
Like I told you I madefriends with my neighbor.
He found out I was trans,like, a week ago, right?

(01:01:31):
We've been here for months.
And so, this new part in my transjourney does feel very aligned.
With the ending of mylast marriage, right?
And the moving to a new place,and the leaving of my job, right?
We talk about the entirelife flows up at once.
Getting to understand my own identityalmost outside of being trans.
Like who, who am I if I'm just me, right?

(01:01:53):
Instead of being a personwho whose identity is, is so
central, right, to who they are.
And so, that process, I feellike, has become more possible.
Because I'm outside of that marriage now,because, because all my community isn't
around being queer, because I'm in aplace where people don't know who I am.

(01:02:15):
It feels like I've been allowed theopportunity to figure out what the
next stage of my life looks like.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel as you're saying it, I feel likeI can feel the freeness in that, right?
Like the freeness and like becomingwhole and being able to find that space.
And yeah, we're all more than one part.
And like, I feel like divorce, youknow, any type of big transition

(01:02:37):
offers you that opportunity to findyour whole parts, all of your parts.
And I feel like you're embracingthat as you leave your divorce
and finding your new space.
Yeah.
And I mean, it's, it's as, as wonderfuland joyful as it is, it's also right.
It's.
There's some mourning involved as well.
We've talked about thatwith, with divorces that you
have this new liberation.
So in passing, that's very liberating.

(01:02:58):
I can go to Lowe's and not worryabout outright getting, getting
clocked by, by some guy buyingwood in the lumber section.
Right.
But at the same time, that meansalso I feel a little disconnected
from queer people in the wild.
And like, I just went camping.
We were camping over the weekend.
And we saw a lesbian couple that hada queer flag on the hood of their car.

(01:03:21):
And I realized I was not visibly queerenough to yell as I was passing by, right?
Like, that might be seenas like, aggressive.
And I didn't want to makethem feel unsafe, so I didn't.
And so there was this momentof connection that passed.
That I wasn't able to grab ontobecause I'm not visibly queer anymore.
So there's There's this excitementand exhilaration that's mostly
to do with safety, right?
I don't have to worry about someoneimmediately recognizing that I'm queer.

(01:03:44):
But at the same time, that was somethingthat was so connective for so long that
allowed me to find so many people thathave been an integral part of my life.
And so, it's both things.
Just like divorce.
It's both things.
You can, you can find that joy and thatliberation, but it's also, it's also sad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think through any transition, bothof these things exist and it's wild.

(01:04:06):
And some days where you can feel happy,then you're sad, then you're feeling
disappointed, then you're feeling great.
You know, there's like, and every time Italk to anybody about this, we're like,
it's a rollercoaster and all these things.
I think we need to remember that.
I feel like as a human, we'reembracing the idea that we can have
more than one emotion at a time.
And as we rebuild, it's important to.
Identify that, and I feel likethat's a new trend, honestly.

(01:04:28):
Like, hopefully it's not a trend,but we didn't talk about emotions
like that growing up, right?
Like, this is a whole new world we'reexisting in, and a whole new free,
amazing world when we start talkingabout our emotions and identifying
and existing in all the spaces.
Yeah, and embracing the, the oxymoronicquality of some of those emotions, right?

(01:04:49):
They feel like you can'thave them at the same time.
They feel contradictory.
You couldn't possibly feel both things.
But not only do you feel boththings, things, you feel them at
the same time and you feel themin the same part of your body.
And it's very confusing.
Which is why art and baking andchicken rearing are highly recommended.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Those moments of mindfulness andconnecting with your body and yourself.

(01:05:11):
Yes.
Exactly.
Wonderful.
So in this stage of yourlife, what is next for you?
Like what things are you excited about,hopeful for, you know, all those things.
I feel like I've been asking myselfthat question for like six months.
What's next, right.
What's the next thing.
And I'm.
Honestly, I'm trying so hard not tothink so far in the future that I don't

(01:05:32):
appreciate where I'm at right now,like, I'm in such a good spot right now,
where every morning, right, is slow,and I can make breakfast intentionally,
and I go outside, and I can wander outthere with my dogs and my chickens,
and I can just feel comfortable.
Present.
And so this what's what's next.
There are a lot of things right thatI'm that I'm working on that I hope

(01:05:54):
will work out, but I'm trying so hardnot to root myself in them anymore
because I think that being afraid of thefuture or being to living too much in
the future is what got me into my firsttwo divorces, which is, you know, being
so worried about how people are seeingthe experience that I'm having, right?
Or, or how I'm feeling in that spacethat I need to push into the next thing.

(01:06:17):
So I'm, I'm trying so hard toslow down and stay here, right?
Stay in this moment where I'm makinglittle videos for the internet,
and I'm making lemon meringuepies, and trying to stay still.
That's beautiful.
Really seriously.
Also thinking about like all ofthe stuff it takes to get through

(01:06:40):
this moment, like contentmentsounds like the best goal, right?
Like contentment and being present.
And then from there, it's easy tothen be like, okay, what is next?
Right.
Because you can see physicallywhat's next from that space and
you can know what feels good andyou can be present in your body.
And that is an amazing goal.
An amazing goal.

(01:07:00):
I think, right, making plans too,right, is something that has caused
so much anxiety for me for so long.
And even as you askedthat, right, what's next?
I had like six million things thatI was thinking about, like so many
different pokers in the fire thatI'm trying to make into something.
And I'm like, why am I working sohard on the next thing when I'm,
when I'm happy now, when I'm happyand content and good right now.

(01:07:22):
When my morning was really soft and reallyslow, and my partner and I had chai tea
in our kitchen and danced to the newHosier EP, right, like, why not just live
in that space, instead of worrying aboutthe next thing that I'm going to do.
Yes.
Yes, I can.

(01:07:44):
That's amazing.
Yeah.
I don't know what else to say to that.
So well said.
I feel like that soundslike a glorious space.
I want to be in that space.
There's guilt in it.
There's guilt, right?
There's a guilt thatcomes with being happy.
If you've spent so long rightback in the space of self denial,
where you think that you're goingto improve other people's lives,
there's by martyring yourself, right?

(01:08:06):
Or by or by suffering like, Oh, if Ijust suffer through this relationship
to make this other person happy, or if Ijust suffer through this job, or if I'm,
if I'm happy, that means I'm not givingup enough of myself to somebody else.
And that's not true.
You don't actually serveanybody by being miserable.
No one is benefited by, by you, youknow, giving of yourself so much

(01:08:29):
that there's nothing of you left.
And I, even right now, right,as I'm describing this happy
life, I know I'm living it.
I know I'm having a good time andI still feel that tug of guilt.
That someone won't have that opportunity,right, can't just slow down, can't
just not be in a job, can't just getout of the space that they're in.
And I'm trying to remember that justbecause not everybody has access to

(01:08:50):
peace, that I should deny myself thatthat fleeting opportunity to be content.
Yes, that.
That culture of martyrdom and especiallyin relationships and partnership.
And yes, I love how you saidthat, like denying yourself
doesn't bring anybody else peace.
You're just denying yourself.
Right.
And really our goal, especiallyI know everything I'm like,

(01:09:12):
go back to the patriarchy.
But if you think about it, like theidea of like how we rebuild society is
all of us feeling whole and content.
And then from there using our power,because we now have some power.
Because we understand ourselves to connectand build community outside of that.
And I feel like that is anamazing spot we could all work
from and, you know, rebuild from.

(01:09:33):
Yeah, this is, I mean, that's somethingI've been thinking about recently when
it comes specifically to trans spaces.
I had a bad experience recentlygoing to a speaking event where I
was not treated especially well bythe people who were putting it on,
and other trans people who were theredid not have a really great time.
It was rough.
And then, a week later, I went toan event specifically for trans
people, like, in West Hollywood,right, which is, like, queer mecca.

(01:09:56):
So it was in West Hollywood.
And the event was so centeredaround, lifting up trans
people in the smallest ways.
It wasn't about political overhaul.
It wasn't about like long termliberation from capitalism.
Those things are important.
It's hard to do that in twohours right at an event.
And so the event had massagetables and food and had resources

(01:10:17):
for mental health, right?
It had the things that queer peopleneed to survive and to be happy
right now, because that is the thing.
Right.
Long term that is going to makeour identities and our lives
survivable is feeling cared forby our community in a larger way.
So if you're asking right long termplans, like 10 years down the line.
I would love love love love to have aretreat center very specifically for

(01:10:42):
like right people who are getting outof divorces are getting out of bad
situations right who need a caringspace to just exist and to live in that
contentment and that peace for a littlewhile and to feel cared for and safe.
Oh, yes.
It's everything starts with.
Us in the moment of feeling careand you know, that really heals

(01:11:03):
and repairs the loneliness feelingwe have, the grief we have.
And yeah, you're right.
There's not like one big solution orfix that we can, you know, that we can
connect with, but really that solutionand that fix, you know, even me just
saying that there's not one, but it is,it's like that contentment, that care,
that finding yourself in that space.
Yeah.
So beautiful and lovely.
Like, I can't stop saying that enough.

(01:11:23):
It sounds so peaceful and amazing.
So good.
I mean, there's Probably one of my mostpopular recent videos I did, I was talking
about you know, having left teaching andnow taking care of chickens on a property.
People ask if I'm okay, right?
They're like, are you okay?
This is so different, right?
From what you were doing before.
I found fulfillment in the classroom.
I'm going to carry thatfulfillment with me forever.

(01:11:44):
But I said that.
You know, now I'm living one of thethree primary queer fantasies, right?
Most queer people either wantthe coffee shop slash performance
space slash bookshop that they canrun, or they want the homestead
or they want the commune, right?
Where all their friendscan come and live together.
And the thing that, that bindsall those fantasies together

(01:12:05):
is that we just want peace.
We want to be cared for.
We want to be in community.
We want to feel soft, right?
We want to have days ofwarm sunshine with nothing.
in front of us that we have to accomplish.
We want to just feel connectedto each other and safe.
And so, right, like,that's, that's what this is.
This is a place where you canplant things and watch them,

(01:12:26):
like my wildflowers are growing.
Cilantro is just poking upthrough the soil right now.
And there's a kind of fulfillment in that.
That you can't have reallyanywhere else that being able to,
to rest and to grow in, in peace.
So as you're thinking about all ofthat and finding this space, if you're

(01:12:48):
talking right now to somebody who iseither just thinking about divorce or
isn't that messy time that we talkedabout that feels so lonely and so hard.
Like, what do you feel like is the.
The best advice you could give them.
Well, I mean, I had to give thisadvice pretty recently, right?
I said, I was talking to, I'm at,I'm at that point in my life too.
And my, my early thirties were alot of us are right on the edge

(01:13:10):
of, of big major life changes.
We always think thingsare going to last forever.
If you'd asked me at 21, if I was theperson I'm going to be at 40, I would
have said, yeah, like, of course I'mfinally figured out and we don't, we
don't plan for how much our lives aregoing to change and how often that will
happen, I'm sure I will go through.
More transitions as I, as I get older,but I think the advice is that once

(01:13:32):
you, once you have that internal knowingand you act on it, right, once you
say the thing that feels unsayable,and you look at your partner and you
say like, this, this isn't right.
We shouldn't be together anymore.
Everything afterward, at least frommy perspective was easier because even
though everything was challenging, right?

(01:13:53):
Like, even though splitting up your stuffand figuring out where you're going to
live, like all of that stuff is hard.
Nothing felt harder to me than justreckoning with the inner knowing
because at least I had the reliefthat I was carrying through, right?
Everything else will sort itself out.
You will figure it out.
You will be a happier, moreconnected person on the other side.

(01:14:13):
But once you say it, right, onceyou say the thing that feels
unsayable, Everything else fallsout in the way it's supposed to.
Reckoning with your inner knowinglove that statement and that idea.
And you're right.
It's so much like, I feel like I connectwith that in my experience so much.
Like every time somebody askedme how you're doing, I was like,

(01:14:35):
the work I'm doing is to healand define my authentic self.
The work I'm doing is to healand find my authentic self.
And in order to do both of those thingslearned over time is that I cannot
do that unless I trust the truth.
My intuition, once I trust my innerknowing and finding that space.
And yeah, I feel like that's so right on.
It's this love that we're bringingit down to the basics, right?

(01:14:56):
Like it's not the basics because it takesa fucking long time to get to that space.
And it's not part of our cultureto understand our inner knowing
or to like connect with it.
But it really is the piece that You know,helps you feel less lonely helps you feel
like you got what you need and you knowyou're heading in the right direction.
And that that inner knowing rightthat intuition that's a muscle, right

(01:15:17):
it's not something that you're born.
Having exercised you your innerknowing is something you have to
develop and trust in little bits.
As you get older and older rightand it slowly builds up into
something that you can rely on.
And so it's hard if you'renot used to using it.
If it's a muscle that's atrophied, right?
Or you've been ignoring it for so long.

(01:15:37):
You don't know if it can hold upthe weight of what you're about
to put yourself through, but you,you can, and it'll get stronger.
Yeah, you can do it.
We can do it.
And if you're listening to a podcastcalled the Queer Divorce Podcast,
you're probably on your way.
First step, you're listening.
You're here.
Yeah.

(01:15:58):
Well, thank you for being here andfor sharing your wisdom and your
story and being so vulnerable.
And I appreciate so much.
I've gleaned so much out of thisconversation and I'm sure everybody
who's listening will as well.
Thank you.
I really appreciate it.
This is my first timereally talking about this.
And it was a great space to getto talk through these feelings.
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that with us.
And if listeners, as if you wantto find more Flint videos on

(01:16:21):
Instagram go to just Flint is fine.
That's your Instagram.
And yeah, I hope everybody connects andI appreciate you so much and I hope you
enjoy the rest of your soft, amazing day.
Thank you so much.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Flint, Renewal through Self-Discovery