December 3, 2024 • 34 mins
Helen Riding, NHS Research Manager (Episode 57)
Helen is a research manager for the North of England Commissioning Support Unit and coordinator for the Research and Development Forum.
Sarah and Helen talk about
- Being the glue that holds the primary care research world together
- How she went from graphic designer to research manager (via midwifery)
- Navigating redundancy and becoming a mature student
- Why she keeps the patient at the heart of everything she does
Find out more
- Read the show notes and transcript on the podcast website
- Connect with Helen on LinkedIn, X or ResearchGate
- Find out about the NECS and the Research and Development Forum
- Read a recent paper on how being research-active improves healthcare
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Helen Riding (00:00):
One of my managers always talks about our role as
very much being that expertglue, bringing all the different
stakeholders together. I thinkthe NHS can be quite
intimidating. You know, I mightbe on a day to day basis,
dealing with academics, dealingwith other primary care
colleagues. But at the end ofall of that, there is a patient
(00:23):
who is hopefully getting accessto a research study which may
offer them a new treatment.There is a lot of evidence
emerging that research activityis better for patient outcomes,
that it can reduce mortality,that it's a benefit for the
(00:44):
staff and the organizations. Ithelps improve retention.
Sarah McLusky (00:50):
Hello there. I'm Sarah McLusky, and this is
Research Adjacent. Each episode,I talk to amazing
research-adjacent professionalsabout what they do and why it
makes a difference. Keeplistening to find out why we
think the research-adjacentspace is where the real magic
happens.
(01:11):
Hello there, and welcome toepisode 57 of Research Adjacent.
It's a special episode for acouple of reasons. Firstly, it's
the last regular episode of 2024if you can believe that. Next
time, we'll round out the yearwith my annual review episode.
For that one, I'd love toinclude comments or feedback
from you. So if you go to theshow notes, you can find links
to send me an email or a voicenote. Feel free to send general
(01:33):
feedback, tell me about yourfavorite episode this year, or
let me know what you'd like tohear about next year. But the
main reason that this is aspecial episode is because it
was recorded in person, and itfeatures my friend Helen Riding.
Now although I mainly know Helenas a festival, running and wild
swimming buddy, she is alsoresearch-adjacent, something
that we usually never talkabout. Helen is an NHS research
(01:56):
manager. She works for the Northof England Commissioning Support
Unit, where she facilitatesresearch in primary care,
primary care being GPs andcommunity healthcare. That work
can cover anything from planningand ethical approval to helping
disseminate research findings.She also coordinates the
national Research andDevelopment Forum, a network for
healthcare research managers. Inthis episode, we talk about how
(02:20):
she found her way to this workvia detours in midwifery and
graphic design, the challengesof being a mature student, the
unexpected ways that everyonebenefits from research and why
she always tries to keep thepatient at the heart of what she
does. Listen on to hear Helen'sstory.
Well, this feels like a veryspecial episode of Research
(02:41):
Adjacent today, because not onlyam I recording in person for the
first time in my home office,but I'm doing it with a very
good friend. So welcome along tothe podcast Helen Riding.
Helen Riding (02:53):
Thank you very much for the invite to come
along to the podcast today.
Sarah McLusky (02:56):
Yeah. Sowe're going to do something today,
Helen, actually, that we don'tdo very often do we, which is
talk about work. So althoughwe've been friends for probably
just about, like, 15 years orsomething now and despite the
fact that we we work in verysimilar worlds, we don't talk
about work very much. So thankyou so much for coming along.
And I wonder if we could beginjust by hearing a bit about what
(03:18):
it is that you do.
Helen Riding (03:19):
Yeah so I am currently, I work as a research
manager for North of EnglandCommissioning Support Unit in
the North East and NorthCumbria. So I help support the
development of primary careresearch and also deliver
research and evaluations aswell. I also have 50% ofmy time
(03:46):
I also work for the Research andDevelopment Forum, which is a
national organization thatsupports R and D managers and
directors across the UK.
Sarah McLusky (04:00):
It's really interesting that your role is as
a research manager, which is ajob title I think a lot of
people will be really familiarwith, but your role is based
within the NHS, rather thanwithin a university. And so how
does your role kind of bringresearch together? Who do you
work with? What sorts of thingsare you doing on a day to day
(04:21):
basis?
Helen Riding (04:23):
So I kind of, I work very much trying to bring
the different stakeholderstogether in order to bring
research to the patient. So myrole is not doing the research.
Generally, it's more helpingsupport the researchers who are
(04:45):
wanting to access primary carelocations, working with the
academics to help kind ofdevelop research ideas,
signposting academics to otherorganizations that work
supporting research, such as theNational Institute for Health
Research. One of my managersalways talks about our role as
(05:09):
very much being that expertglue, bringing all the different
stakeholders together to helpbecause it can be quite I think
the NHS can be quiteintimidating landscape. There's
lots of different organizations,whether it's in trusts or
primary care. There's differentlocations. So I think my role, I
(05:34):
see, is very much trying to makethat complex process easier for
whether it be other NHScolleagues or academics who are
wanting to undertake research inthe NHS.
Sarah McLusky (05:49):
Yeah I love that image there of being the glue
that kind of holds it together.Because that often comes up a
lot in these kind ofresearch-adjacent roles, is that
they're that connection betweenall these different parts. So
generally, what happens is ifsomebody, say, in a university
has got a research project thatthey want to test out in a
(06:09):
primary care setting. So forpeople who maybe don't know the
terminology, primary care islike GPs, family doctors,
frontline kind of rather thanhospitals and consultants and
that side of thing. Yeah, yeah.Just so to make sure anybody
listening knows the terminology,so they would come along to you
and what do you help to, like,introduce them to doctors that
are willing to take part in thatresearch, or patients.
Helen Riding (06:32):
It can be at any stage of that research.
Generally, my role. I'm thegovernance lead and the team. So
a lot of the time, I'mapproached by researchers who
are at that planning stage.They're currently looking to
apply for ethical approval. So Ihelp support them through that
(06:55):
process, because that, again,can be quite a complex process.
So I can help them understandwhat they need to do to ensure
that they can contact theprimary care, and they've got
the necessary assurances to dothat. But it can also be at the
end as well, where they'veactually undertook their
(07:19):
research, and we then helpsupport them in potentially
disseminating the findings fromthat research to the
commissioners who would benefitfrom being aware of that the
findings from that research Andthe central part that delivery
(07:40):
side, we can help support that,but sometimes we also sign posts
to the National Institute forHealth and Care research teams
who also help support thedelivery of the larger studies.
Sarah McLusky (07:56):
Really interesting. So, yeah, it's
interesting there that you saythat as well, as you know,
helping the research to happen.Essentially, there's also that
involvement in that, thatdissemination piece as well, and
helping to make sure that theresearch gets to the right
people and the people who mightbe able to use it. Because I
know that that's certainly oneof the things so many people in
this area are involved in, is islike the research that kind of
(08:19):
almost happens over here, butthat's not the people who are
actually going to use it. How doyou fill those gaps in the
middle and get it to the peoplewho could actually potentially
use it at the end of the day? Sowhat sorts of things do you do
to help with that disseminationside of things?
Helen Riding (08:36):
So our team work with local organizations. We
have a newsletter, which we sendout regularly, which often
shares the findings of theresearch. We have social media
channels. We also have groups ofresearch interested primary care
(08:59):
staff as well. And in the past,we've had events as well where
staff from across the area cancome together and learn about
projects that have beendelivered in the area.
Sarah McLusky (09:16):
Sounds really valuable. So yeah, sounds like
if there's anybody listeningwho's in that area of of
research, and just really usefulgroup of people to be connected
to. So you mentioned there thatyou do two different roles all
rolled into one the other one.We talked a lot about the
research manager role. Tell us abit more about the coordinator
role that you've got.
Helen Riding (09:36):
Yeah, so I work as a coordinator for the Research
and Development Forum. So thatis a national organization that
helps support R and D teamsacross the UK. So my role is
quite wide and varied. We have anumber of working groups that
help support and I also meetwith stakeholders. It's actually
(10:02):
it's a really interesting role,because I get to see more of
that kind of the national policydrivers and those national
conversations that that I thinkare really interesting to be
part of. I also help support theHive Mind, which is a really
interesting group, which is anumber of it's for R and D staff
(10:25):
to come together monthly.There's also a circulation email
list. You know, we've got nearly250 members of that group. And
we've got a monthly Zoom call aswell. And that's amazing,
because you hear really what'sgoing on around the UK, and you
get to hear of the challengesand the great work that's going
(10:49):
on around the country
Sarah McLusky (10:51):
That sounds like really useful for sharing that
best practice and finding outwhat everybody's up to.
Helen Riding (10:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah McLusky (10:57):
So obviously, I know a bit about your work
history, and we're going to comeinto that. But how did you get
into doing this work in thefirst place? What was it that
appealed?
Helen Riding (11:07):
Well I was working as a midwife, and so I've got a
clinical background as amidwife, so I when I was working
in the hospital, I can alwaysremember that I was always very
interested in watching what theresearch midwives were doing. I
was always quite intrigued withtheir job, their role. So when I
(11:32):
was a midwife, I decided tostart looking at research roles,
and I discovered there was arole as a research facilitator,
now working for the Primary CareTrust, and it was helping
support and GP practices inNewcastle and North Tyneside. So
(11:55):
I lived in North Tyneside. Igrew up in the West end of
Newcastle, and I thought, I knowthese areas really well. I know
the needs. I've got thatclinical background. I
understand the NHS. I also havea passion for research, so I
thought I'd apply, and the restis history. And since then, I've
(12:18):
moved into being a researchmanager, yeah, and then working
with kind of the nationalorganization as well.
Sarah McLusky (12:25):
And was it, was it a big jump, going from being
a midwife into this researchfacilitation role? Were there
particular skills that youneeded to develop?
Helen Riding (12:34):
Yeah, I think, I think it was quite a big jump.
And I think one of the mainthings was the complexity of the
research world. I think the useof acronyms,
Sarah McLusky (12:51):
Oh yeah.
Helen Riding (12:52):
I think everyone in the research world. I think
when you move into it, it is, itcan be quite intimidating,
because you're in meetings andall these acronyms are being
used, and often they have acompletely different meaning and
other Yeah, and it takes quite along time to get used to them
(13:14):
all. So I can remember when Ifirst came in feeling that was
quite difficult change to make,but I think ultimately, I mean,
our team is great. We've gotvarious backgrounds in clinical
roles, and I think that thatvariety and that clinical role
(13:37):
background is really beneficial,because you really understand
how working day to day in theNHS works in the challenges of
being able to deliver researchwhen you are working on the
front line.
Sarah McLusky (13:54):
Yeah and you did a masters to help you get your
head around all the researchside of things.
Helen Riding (13:59):
Yeah, yeah. So, so, yeah. So I did my obviously,
I did a degree to become amidwife, and when I did that, I
was a mature student. But thenonce I started my role in
research, I was very fortunateto be offered the opportunity to
undertake a Master's in clinicalresearch with leadership. So,
(14:21):
yes, so I did that back in 2017Well, well, I completed it in
2017 it took me between 2012 and2017 because I did have to have
a bit of a maternity leave breakin the middle of all of that.
But I got there in the end. Soyeah, so that was really
interesting, because until thatpoint I'd been on, I talk, kind
(14:46):
of talk about it, one side ofthe fence, so I was the, so I
was the, the person helpingsupport, people looking for
approvals, looking forgovernance advice, and then
through doing thatqualification, I got a much
broader understanding of beingthe researcher, because I had to
(15:09):
do my dissertation, and as partof that, I had to do the the
ethics approval and theapplication to the health
research authority. So it wasreally interesting to understand
from the other side of the fencewhat that is like. So I think
when I came out of doing thatmasters, I think the benefit was
(15:31):
that I've got that appreciationof that view from both sides.
Sarah McLusky (15:37):
Yeah I can definitely see how that would be
useful to give you thatdifferent perspective on it. So
one thing that I've found reallyinteresting, when I've been out
there looking for things likejobs as research managers, you
never see the NHS jobs. So it'salmost like, to me, it seems
like it's the secret underworldthat you know, that people might
not know about. So how do like,how would people get into doing
(16:01):
this kind of work, where thejobs advertised? What kinds of
roles are they looking for?
Helen Riding (16:07):
Generally, I think you would find a lot of these
roles through NHS Jobs website,and there's a variety of roles.
So there's a lot of roles aroundkind of research support
officers, research facilitators,which are seen as more that
entry level role. Then you'vegot the research managers.
(16:32):
You've got also, so, so you'vegot the primary care, but then
you've got the trusts as well,where you have more you might
have managers that specialize ingovernance or managers that
specialize in finance orcontracting and funding,
although those roles are morespecific to trusts. So in
(16:57):
primary care, it's more theresearch coordinators, the
research managers, but generallyit would be through NHS jobs you
would discover those.
Sarah McLusky (17:09):
Well that's a place to look for anybody who is
thinking of jobs along theselines. So to maybe come back now
a bit more to you and yourstory, rather than the job even
becoming a midwife was, was abit of a career U-turn for you,
wasn't it? Do you want to tellus a little bit about the whole
trajectory of how you've endedup where you are now?
Helen Riding (17:31):
Yeah, so I think I'm quite an expert in career
changes. So when I first went toI went to college, I qualified
with a Higher National Diplomain newspaper design. So I
initially qualified as a graphicdesigner. I worked at the
(17:54):
Newcastle Chronicle and Journal,and then I was very lucky, and I
got the opportunity to go andwork for the BBC in London. So I
worked as a with I worked as adesigner on the very at that
point. This was in the 90s. Itwas very much when the BBC News
website was stopped. So it was areally exciting time. So I
(18:18):
worked for the BBC for quite afew years, I also dipped my toe
in a bit of broadcast journalismas well, a bit of writing. But
then the BBC, as it does, had areorganization, and I was made
redundant. But so I had thedecision to what I was going to
(18:42):
do next, and I think it waseither go traveling or move into
another role. And I'd alwayswanted to be a midwife. It was
something that really interestedme, so I did some research and
decided to go down the role ofretraining as a midwife,
Sarah McLusky (19:07):
And here we are now. So that's really dramatic
changes. I think a lot ofpeople, when they think about
making career changes, it'smaybe like they do the similar
job, but they do it, you know,in university, and then they do
it in a company, you know, orsomething like that, but you've
done really dramatic changes inwhat you do. How have you found
(19:31):
that? Is that something do youenjoy just getting stuck into
something really new, or attimes, has it been a real
mindset challenge
Helen Riding (19:42):
I think it's been a bit of both. I think I like
the challenge of moving into anew role. I think I am led by
doing something that I enjoy andfind interesting, and I've got
to be passionate about whateverI'm doing. So I think it is
(20:09):
challenging, but I think I'vebeen quite fortunate that, for
example, moving from being maderedundant into being a midwife,
I had funding from theredundancy, and there was also
so sometimes when you retrain, Idon't know if it's the same now,
but it used to be, if you weredoing a kind of an NHS training
(20:32):
course for midwifery or to be anurse or to be a physio, there
was grants and funding availableto help you through that. I
don't know if it's the same now,it was quite a long time ago.
I've also kind of looked forother funding. So when I was
doing my Midwifery, I wanted todo my elective abroad. I was
(20:54):
really wanting to go andunderstand midwifery practice
elsewhere, so I applied for awellbeing of women bursary, and
I was successful on gettingthat. So I started to understand
the advantages of looking at,looking at the research angle
and and applying for funding andthe benefit that that can bring.
(21:19):
And I think I just like kind ofdeveloping. It's like, like
that, lifelong learning, Ithink, and I think the research,
it's something that's alwaysinterested me. I've been a
research participant myself. Myfamily members have been
research participants. My mumhad cancer, and when I was
(21:41):
young, she signed up for aresearch study. So I've always
felt that it's important thateverybody gets equal access to
research. So I think when therewas an opportunity, particularly
helping support the area where Igrew up, in Newcastle, and
(22:03):
ensuring that population gotaccess to research. That was
something that I really wantedto do, and I felt was really
important. It's something that Inever forget, is that, you know,
I might be on a day to day basisdealing with academics, dealing
with other primary carecolleagues, but at the end of
all of that, there is a patientwho is hopefully getting access
(22:27):
to a research study which mayoffer them a new treatment, some
groundbreaking approach. Andyeah, and that's it,
Sarah McLusky (22:39):
Yeah. And ultimately, do you think that's
what's motivated you? As yousay, even if it's not front and
centre every day that's there atthe back of your head?
Helen Riding (22:48):
Yeah definitely definitely, I think so. I think
it's a really I think you canget wrapped up in the
bureaucracy of research, but atthe end of the day, my job is to
make it easier for research tohappen in the NHS because it's
sometimes not that easy. So Ithink, yeah, I always keep that
(23:09):
kind of main aim to make surethe patients can get access to
research.
Sarah McLusky (23:13):
Yeah, fantastic. So thinking back over your
career, whether it's the workthat you do now, or whether it's
all the way back to when youwere at the BBC, I wonder if you
might like to give us an exampleor two. Maybe, maybe what you've
said there leads you onto itnicely, a couple of examples of
things you've done that you'rereally proud of.
Helen Riding (23:33):
I think the main one is my Masters. I think, as
I've said, I grew up in the westend of Newcastle, and I think
I've never been particularlyacademic. Obviously, I came to
academic studies later in life,so I think to to do, to complete
(23:57):
my Masters. I'm really proud ofthat that's been disseminated
widely, locally and at nationalconferences. There's actually
been some more national workdone that built on what I did in
my Masters, not because of whatI did, but just because it was
an important
Sarah McLusky (24:16):
What was the topic?
Helen Riding (24:17):
So the topic I was looking at kind of research
activity in primary care and thequality indicators, because
there is a lot of evidenceemerging that research activity
is better for patient outcomes,that it can reduce mortality,
(24:39):
that it's a benefit for thestaff and the organizations. It
helps improve retention. Andthere wasn't any evidence at
that time in primary care. Sowhat I wanted to do was speak to
primary care staff, GPS andpractice managers, to understand
(24:59):
how they felt that taking partin research would potentially
impact the quality in the carethat they provide. So yeah, and
like, since then, there's been alarge NIHR study that's the
findings were released in thelast year. And yeah, and that
(25:22):
evidence continues to growaround that kind of outcome of
quality
Sarah McLusky (25:27):
That's really interesting, that yeah, that
even that just taking part inresearch has benefits for
patients and staff. And yeah,regardless, almost of what it
is, I wonder if it's that senseof feeling that you're doing
something, you know, trying tomake things better.
Helen Riding (25:45):
Yeah, definitely, I think so. I think there's so
many benefits, and I think themajority of staff are very aware
of those benefits, and want todo their best to ensure that
patients can get access to that.And it's good to see that the
evidence is growing around thatoverall benefit to the
(26:09):
organization and patients.
Sarah McLusky (26:11):
Yeah brilliant, really important topic, and any
other things you've done thatyou're particularly proud of?
Helen Riding (26:17):
Yeah, so I think it's seeing the the small
research ideas that then go onto develop into the larger
studies. So I can remember backin 2016 being sat in a in a
small room in a GP surgeryhaving discussions about a
(26:38):
potential study investigatingCOPD, and that has now, after a
few years and a few differentfunding streams, that's now
developed into a large NIHRgrant, and that's currently
being delivered in the NorthEast and North Cumbria, and
(27:01):
that's great to see, becausethere's some conditions,
obviously the North East andNorth Cumbria is a huge area,
but the area has high levels ofchronic obstructive pulmonary
disease, and I think it's areally important topic. So it's
really good that that project isnow really a significant project
(27:23):
that's been funded.
Sarah McLusky (27:24):
Fantastic, yeah, seeing how things grow over
time, always that satisfactionof seeing your baby released out
into the world? Yeah, brilliant.I'm sure, though, that your life
isn't without its challenges. Sowhat are some of the biggest
hurdles that you've had toovercome?
Helen Riding (27:43):
I think I touched on that just before. I think one
of my major hurdles was becominga mature student in my early
30s, when I got made redundant.And I think that was a
challenge, because I don't comefrom a family with a strong
academic background, and I'veoften felt that imposter
(28:10):
syndrome, I think, particularlyin the research world. But I
think as I've got moreexperienced and I undertook my
Masters, and my confidence grew.I think I don't experience that
that much now, but I think atthe time, obviously going
(28:34):
through a redundancy is quitestressful, quite upsetting, and
then suddenly finding yourselfas a mature student, having to
write academically is quitechallenging. And, yeah, and I
think that was probably my mainchallenge over the years, but I
(28:56):
think there's been lots ofothers, but that's
Sarah McLusky (28:58):
That's a pretty that's a pretty big challenge,
though, as you see bothovercoming the mindset stuff
around the imposter experiences,and then also, like you say,
learning, particularly comingfrom writing in a journalistic
way to suddenly having to writein an academic way, which I know
from the work I do, is verydifferent. So, so that's both,
(29:19):
you know, mindset stuff andskill stuff going along. So it's
pretty, pretty big hurdle toovercome, but, but yeah, but
here you are.
Helen Riding (29:27):
Yeah, yeah, definitely that journalistic to
academic is really it's a reallyinteresting aspect, because I
really found that, particularlywhen I was writing for my
dissertation, because I would godefinitely down the more
journalistic side of writing,and it took a while to get my
(29:48):
head around that academic style,which I still don't think I've
got my head around. Well, Idon't think I ever will
Sarah McLusky (29:55):
To be honest, I don't think that's necessarily a
bad thing, yeah, because, youknow, academic writing is
challenging, in and of itself attimes. So yeah, especially when
you want people, like patients,to be able to understand the
projects that you're working on.So yeah, well, with that, maybe
(30:15):
I'd like to ask you, as I do allmy guests, if you had a magic
wand, what would you changeabout the world that you work
in?
Helen Riding (30:24):
There may be many things. So I think, as we
discussed, there's lots ofevidence that research has a
positive impact. So, and thisgoes back to my Masters as well.
I think there's a few thingsthat it would be great to see
(30:45):
happen in order to help NHSorganizations deliver research.
I think one thing that was astrong finding from my Masters
is the dedicated staff helpingsupport research. I think the
(31:08):
day job in the NHS so stressful,particularly in general
practice, so often research isthe least priority, which is
quite right, because, you know,they've got a lot to do, but I
think if there is dedicatedstaff that could potentially
(31:30):
allow research to be deliveredin those practices, which I
think would be great. And thereis examples locally that's
starting to happen, particularlyin more deprived practices in
the North East, which is greatto see, and also kind of
ensuring that the NHS as a wholeis supporting that development
(31:53):
of a research culture, and haveit kind of embedded in what's
expected of organizations thathave it in there, and more
recently, it's been added in theCQC ratings as well.
Sarah McLusky (32:08):
CQC?
Helen Riding (32:09):
So that's the Care Quality Commission. Yeah,
research is recognized withinthe ratings that they provide.
And I think something I've alsotouched on earlier about equity
of access. I think for me, it'sreally important that all
patients, never mind where youlive. Do get that chance to take
(32:32):
part in research? And I thinkthere's a lot of work ongoing to
look at how you know you're in aquite affluent area, but you're
also in a deprived area. Andoften research should be
delivered where there's a need.And sometimes you have to think
about different delivery modelsin different areas. And I think
(32:58):
going back to that embeddedstaff having that to ensure that
they've got the supportnecessary to do that.
Sarah McLusky (33:06):
Yeah oh, it sounds like though as well, all
your examples there stillleading to your north star of
doing things which make adifference for real people in
the real world. Patients,fantastic. Well, it just remains
to say thank you very much forcoming along, having a chat. If
people want to find out moreabout the work you do, or get in
(33:29):
touch, where's the best place totrack you down?
Helen Riding (33:32):
So I'm on LinkedIn, Helen Riding. I'm also
on X. So @RidingHelen, yeah, andthose, and I'm sure you can put
links in the notes.
Sarah McLusky (33:44):
I will. I'll put those links in the show notes.
People can find you there. Sothank you very much. It's been
interesting for me just to heara bit more about what you do.
Yeah, anything else?
Helen Riding (33:54):
Thank you very much for inviting me along
today.
Sarah McLusky (33:59):
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent.
If you're listening in a podcastapp, please check your
subscribed and then use thelinks in the episode description
to find full show notes and tofollow the podcast on LinkedIn
or Instagram. You can also findall the links and other episodes
at www.researchadjacent.com.Research Adjacent is presented
(34:20):
and produced by Sarah McLusky,and the theme music is by Lemon
Music Studios on Pixabay. Andyou, yes you, get a big gold
star for listening right to theend. See you next time you.
One of my managers always talks about our role as
very much being that expertglue, bringing all the different
stakeholders together. I thinkthe NHS can be quite
intimidating. You know, I mightbe on a day to day basis,
dealing with academics, dealingwith other primary care
colleagues. But at the end ofall of that, there is a patient
(00:23):
who is hopefully getting accessto a research study which may
offer them a new treatment.There is a lot of evidence
emerging that research activityis better for patient outcomes,
that it can reduce mortality,that it's a benefit for the
(00:44):
staff and the organizations. Ithelps improve retention.
Sarah McLusky (00:50):
Hello there. I'm Sarah McLusky, and this is
Research Adjacent. Each episode,I talk to amazing
research-adjacent professionalsabout what they do and why it
makes a difference. Keeplistening to find out why we
think the research-adjacentspace is where the real magic
happens.
(01:11):
Hello there, and welcome toepisode 57 of Research Adjacent.
It's a special episode for acouple of reasons. Firstly, it's
the last regular episode of 2024if you can believe that. Next
time, we'll round out the yearwith my annual review episode.
For that one, I'd love toinclude comments or feedback
from you. So if you go to theshow notes, you can find links
to send me an email or a voicenote. Feel free to send general
(01:33):
feedback, tell me about yourfavorite episode this year, or
let me know what you'd like tohear about next year. But the
main reason that this is aspecial episode is because it
was recorded in person, and itfeatures my friend Helen Riding.
Now although I mainly know Helenas a festival, running and wild
swimming buddy, she is alsoresearch-adjacent, something
that we usually never talkabout. Helen is an NHS research
(01:56):
manager. She works for the Northof England Commissioning Support
Unit, where she facilitatesresearch in primary care,
primary care being GPs andcommunity healthcare. That work
can cover anything from planningand ethical approval to helping
disseminate research findings.She also coordinates the
national Research andDevelopment Forum, a network for
healthcare research managers. Inthis episode, we talk about how
(02:20):
she found her way to this workvia detours in midwifery and
graphic design, the challengesof being a mature student, the
unexpected ways that everyonebenefits from research and why
she always tries to keep thepatient at the heart of what she
does. Listen on to hear Helen'sstory.
Well, this feels like a veryspecial episode of Research
(02:41):
Adjacent today, because not onlyam I recording in person for the
first time in my home office,but I'm doing it with a very
good friend. So welcome along tothe podcast Helen Riding.
Helen Riding (02:53):
Thank you very much for the invite to come
along to the podcast today.
Sarah McLusky (02:56):
Yeah. Sowe're going to do something today,
Helen, actually, that we don'tdo very often do we, which is
talk about work. So althoughwe've been friends for probably
just about, like, 15 years orsomething now and despite the
fact that we we work in verysimilar worlds, we don't talk
about work very much. So thankyou so much for coming along.
And I wonder if we could beginjust by hearing a bit about what
(03:18):
it is that you do.
Helen Riding (03:19):
Yeah so I am currently, I work as a research
manager for North of EnglandCommissioning Support Unit in
the North East and NorthCumbria. So I help support the
development of primary careresearch and also deliver
research and evaluations aswell. I also have 50% ofmy time
(03:46):
I also work for the Research andDevelopment Forum, which is a
national organization thatsupports R and D managers and
directors across the UK.
Sarah McLusky (04:00):
It's really interesting that your role is as
a research manager, which is ajob title I think a lot of
people will be really familiarwith, but your role is based
within the NHS, rather thanwithin a university. And so how
does your role kind of bringresearch together? Who do you
work with? What sorts of thingsare you doing on a day to day
(04:21):
basis?
Helen Riding (04:23):
So I kind of, I work very much trying to bring
the different stakeholderstogether in order to bring
research to the patient. So myrole is not doing the research.
Generally, it's more helpingsupport the researchers who are
(04:45):
wanting to access primary carelocations, working with the
academics to help kind ofdevelop research ideas,
signposting academics to otherorganizations that work
supporting research, such as theNational Institute for Health
Research. One of my managersalways talks about our role as
(05:09):
very much being that expertglue, bringing all the different
stakeholders together to helpbecause it can be quite I think
the NHS can be quiteintimidating landscape. There's
lots of different organizations,whether it's in trusts or
primary care. There's differentlocations. So I think my role, I
(05:34):
see, is very much trying to makethat complex process easier for
whether it be other NHScolleagues or academics who are
wanting to undertake research inthe NHS.
Sarah McLusky (05:49):
Yeah I love that image there of being the glue
that kind of holds it together.Because that often comes up a
lot in these kind ofresearch-adjacent roles, is that
they're that connection betweenall these different parts. So
generally, what happens is ifsomebody, say, in a university
has got a research project thatthey want to test out in a
(06:09):
primary care setting. So forpeople who maybe don't know the
terminology, primary care islike GPs, family doctors,
frontline kind of rather thanhospitals and consultants and
that side of thing. Yeah, yeah.Just so to make sure anybody
listening knows the terminology,so they would come along to you
and what do you help to, like,introduce them to doctors that
are willing to take part in thatresearch, or patients.
Helen Riding (06:32):
It can be at any stage of that research.
Generally, my role. I'm thegovernance lead and the team. So
a lot of the time, I'mapproached by researchers who
are at that planning stage.They're currently looking to
apply for ethical approval. So Ihelp support them through that
(06:55):
process, because that, again,can be quite a complex process.
So I can help them understandwhat they need to do to ensure
that they can contact theprimary care, and they've got
the necessary assurances to dothat. But it can also be at the
end as well, where they'veactually undertook their
(07:19):
research, and we then helpsupport them in potentially
disseminating the findings fromthat research to the
commissioners who would benefitfrom being aware of that the
findings from that research Andthe central part that delivery
(07:40):
side, we can help support that,but sometimes we also sign posts
to the National Institute forHealth and Care research teams
who also help support thedelivery of the larger studies.
Sarah McLusky (07:56):
Really interesting. So, yeah, it's
interesting there that you saythat as well, as you know,
helping the research to happen.Essentially, there's also that
involvement in that, thatdissemination piece as well, and
helping to make sure that theresearch gets to the right
people and the people who mightbe able to use it. Because I
know that that's certainly oneof the things so many people in
this area are involved in, is islike the research that kind of
(08:19):
almost happens over here, butthat's not the people who are
actually going to use it. How doyou fill those gaps in the
middle and get it to the peoplewho could actually potentially
use it at the end of the day? Sowhat sorts of things do you do
to help with that disseminationside of things?
Helen Riding (08:36):
So our team work with local organizations. We
have a newsletter, which we sendout regularly, which often
shares the findings of theresearch. We have social media
channels. We also have groups ofresearch interested primary care
(08:59):
staff as well. And in the past,we've had events as well where
staff from across the area cancome together and learn about
projects that have beendelivered in the area.
Sarah McLusky (09:16):
Sounds really valuable. So yeah, sounds like
if there's anybody listeningwho's in that area of of
research, and just really usefulgroup of people to be connected
to. So you mentioned there thatyou do two different roles all
rolled into one the other one.We talked a lot about the
research manager role. Tell us abit more about the coordinator
role that you've got.
Helen Riding (09:36):
Yeah, so I work as a coordinator for the Research
and Development Forum. So thatis a national organization that
helps support R and D teamsacross the UK. So my role is
quite wide and varied. We have anumber of working groups that
help support and I also meetwith stakeholders. It's actually
(10:02):
it's a really interesting role,because I get to see more of
that kind of the national policydrivers and those national
conversations that that I thinkare really interesting to be
part of. I also help support theHive Mind, which is a really
interesting group, which is anumber of it's for R and D staff
(10:25):
to come together monthly.There's also a circulation email
list. You know, we've got nearly250 members of that group. And
we've got a monthly Zoom call aswell. And that's amazing,
because you hear really what'sgoing on around the UK, and you
get to hear of the challengesand the great work that's going
(10:49):
on around the country
Sarah McLusky (10:51):
That sounds like really useful for sharing that
best practice and finding outwhat everybody's up to.
Helen Riding (10:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah McLusky (10:57):
So obviously, I know a bit about your work
history, and we're going to comeinto that. But how did you get
into doing this work in thefirst place? What was it that
appealed?
Helen Riding (11:07):
Well I was working as a midwife, and so I've got a
clinical background as amidwife, so I when I was working
in the hospital, I can alwaysremember that I was always very
interested in watching what theresearch midwives were doing. I
was always quite intrigued withtheir job, their role. So when I
(11:32):
was a midwife, I decided tostart looking at research roles,
and I discovered there was arole as a research facilitator,
now working for the Primary CareTrust, and it was helping
support and GP practices inNewcastle and North Tyneside. So
(11:55):
I lived in North Tyneside. Igrew up in the West end of
Newcastle, and I thought, I knowthese areas really well. I know
the needs. I've got thatclinical background. I
understand the NHS. I also havea passion for research, so I
thought I'd apply, and the restis history. And since then, I've
(12:18):
moved into being a researchmanager, yeah, and then working
with kind of the nationalorganization as well.
Sarah McLusky (12:25):
And was it, was it a big jump, going from being
a midwife into this researchfacilitation role? Were there
particular skills that youneeded to develop?
Helen Riding (12:34):
Yeah, I think, I think it was quite a big jump.
And I think one of the mainthings was the complexity of the
research world. I think the useof acronyms,
Sarah McLusky (12:51):
Oh yeah.
Helen Riding (12:52):
I think everyone in the research world. I think
when you move into it, it is, itcan be quite intimidating,
because you're in meetings andall these acronyms are being
used, and often they have acompletely different meaning and
other Yeah, and it takes quite along time to get used to them
(13:14):
all. So I can remember when Ifirst came in feeling that was
quite difficult change to make,but I think ultimately, I mean,
our team is great. We've gotvarious backgrounds in clinical
roles, and I think that thatvariety and that clinical role
(13:37):
background is really beneficial,because you really understand
how working day to day in theNHS works in the challenges of
being able to deliver researchwhen you are working on the
front line.
Sarah McLusky (13:54):
Yeah and you did a masters to help you get your
head around all the researchside of things.
Helen Riding (13:59):
Yeah, yeah. So, so, yeah. So I did my obviously,
I did a degree to become amidwife, and when I did that, I
was a mature student. But thenonce I started my role in
research, I was very fortunateto be offered the opportunity to
undertake a Master's in clinicalresearch with leadership. So,
(14:21):
yes, so I did that back in 2017Well, well, I completed it in
2017 it took me between 2012 and2017 because I did have to have
a bit of a maternity leave breakin the middle of all of that.
But I got there in the end. Soyeah, so that was really
interesting, because until thatpoint I'd been on, I talk, kind
(14:46):
of talk about it, one side ofthe fence, so I was the, so I
was the, the person helpingsupport, people looking for
approvals, looking forgovernance advice, and then
through doing thatqualification, I got a much
broader understanding of beingthe researcher, because I had to
(15:09):
do my dissertation, and as partof that, I had to do the the
ethics approval and theapplication to the health
research authority. So it wasreally interesting to understand
from the other side of the fencewhat that is like. So I think
when I came out of doing thatmasters, I think the benefit was
(15:31):
that I've got that appreciationof that view from both sides.
Sarah McLusky (15:37):
Yeah I can definitely see how that would be
useful to give you thatdifferent perspective on it. So
one thing that I've found reallyinteresting, when I've been out
there looking for things likejobs as research managers, you
never see the NHS jobs. So it'salmost like, to me, it seems
like it's the secret underworldthat you know, that people might
not know about. So how do like,how would people get into doing
(16:01):
this kind of work, where thejobs advertised? What kinds of
roles are they looking for?
Helen Riding (16:07):
Generally, I think you would find a lot of these
roles through NHS Jobs website,and there's a variety of roles.
So there's a lot of roles aroundkind of research support
officers, research facilitators,which are seen as more that
entry level role. Then you'vegot the research managers.
(16:32):
You've got also, so, so you'vegot the primary care, but then
you've got the trusts as well,where you have more you might
have managers that specialize ingovernance or managers that
specialize in finance orcontracting and funding,
although those roles are morespecific to trusts. So in
(16:57):
primary care, it's more theresearch coordinators, the
research managers, but generallyit would be through NHS jobs you
would discover those.
Sarah McLusky (17:09):
Well that's a place to look for anybody who is
thinking of jobs along theselines. So to maybe come back now
a bit more to you and yourstory, rather than the job even
becoming a midwife was, was abit of a career U-turn for you,
wasn't it? Do you want to tellus a little bit about the whole
trajectory of how you've endedup where you are now?
Helen Riding (17:31):
Yeah, so I think I'm quite an expert in career
changes. So when I first went toI went to college, I qualified
with a Higher National Diplomain newspaper design. So I
initially qualified as a graphicdesigner. I worked at the
(17:54):
Newcastle Chronicle and Journal,and then I was very lucky, and I
got the opportunity to go andwork for the BBC in London. So I
worked as a with I worked as adesigner on the very at that
point. This was in the 90s. Itwas very much when the BBC News
website was stopped. So it was areally exciting time. So I
(18:18):
worked for the BBC for quite afew years, I also dipped my toe
in a bit of broadcast journalismas well, a bit of writing. But
then the BBC, as it does, had areorganization, and I was made
redundant. But so I had thedecision to what I was going to
(18:42):
do next, and I think it waseither go traveling or move into
another role. And I'd alwayswanted to be a midwife. It was
something that really interestedme, so I did some research and
decided to go down the role ofretraining as a midwife,
Sarah McLusky (19:07):
And here we are now. So that's really dramatic
changes. I think a lot ofpeople, when they think about
making career changes, it'smaybe like they do the similar
job, but they do it, you know,in university, and then they do
it in a company, you know, orsomething like that, but you've
done really dramatic changes inwhat you do. How have you found
(19:31):
that? Is that something do youenjoy just getting stuck into
something really new, or attimes, has it been a real
mindset challenge
Helen Riding (19:42):
I think it's been a bit of both. I think I like
the challenge of moving into anew role. I think I am led by
doing something that I enjoy andfind interesting, and I've got
to be passionate about whateverI'm doing. So I think it is
(20:09):
challenging, but I think I'vebeen quite fortunate that, for
example, moving from being maderedundant into being a midwife,
I had funding from theredundancy, and there was also
so sometimes when you retrain, Idon't know if it's the same now,
but it used to be, if you weredoing a kind of an NHS training
(20:32):
course for midwifery or to be anurse or to be a physio, there
was grants and funding availableto help you through that. I
don't know if it's the same now,it was quite a long time ago.
I've also kind of looked forother funding. So when I was
doing my Midwifery, I wanted todo my elective abroad. I was
(20:54):
really wanting to go andunderstand midwifery practice
elsewhere, so I applied for awellbeing of women bursary, and
I was successful on gettingthat. So I started to understand
the advantages of looking at,looking at the research angle
and and applying for funding andthe benefit that that can bring.
(21:19):
And I think I just like kind ofdeveloping. It's like, like
that, lifelong learning, Ithink, and I think the research,
it's something that's alwaysinterested me. I've been a
research participant myself. Myfamily members have been
research participants. My mumhad cancer, and when I was
(21:41):
young, she signed up for aresearch study. So I've always
felt that it's important thateverybody gets equal access to
research. So I think when therewas an opportunity, particularly
helping support the area where Igrew up, in Newcastle, and
(22:03):
ensuring that population gotaccess to research. That was
something that I really wantedto do, and I felt was really
important. It's something that Inever forget, is that, you know,
I might be on a day to day basisdealing with academics, dealing
with other primary carecolleagues, but at the end of
all of that, there is a patientwho is hopefully getting access
(22:27):
to a research study which mayoffer them a new treatment, some
groundbreaking approach. Andyeah, and that's it,
Sarah McLusky (22:39):
Yeah. And ultimately, do you think that's
what's motivated you? As yousay, even if it's not front and
centre every day that's there atthe back of your head?
Helen Riding (22:48):
Yeah definitely definitely, I think so. I think
it's a really I think you canget wrapped up in the
bureaucracy of research, but atthe end of the day, my job is to
make it easier for research tohappen in the NHS because it's
sometimes not that easy. So Ithink, yeah, I always keep that
(23:09):
kind of main aim to make surethe patients can get access to
research.
Sarah McLusky (23:13):
Yeah, fantastic. So thinking back over your
career, whether it's the workthat you do now, or whether it's
all the way back to when youwere at the BBC, I wonder if you
might like to give us an exampleor two. Maybe, maybe what you've
said there leads you onto itnicely, a couple of examples of
things you've done that you'rereally proud of.
Helen Riding (23:33):
I think the main one is my Masters. I think, as
I've said, I grew up in the westend of Newcastle, and I think
I've never been particularlyacademic. Obviously, I came to
academic studies later in life,so I think to to do, to complete
(23:57):
my Masters. I'm really proud ofthat that's been disseminated
widely, locally and at nationalconferences. There's actually
been some more national workdone that built on what I did in
my Masters, not because of whatI did, but just because it was
an important
Sarah McLusky (24:16):
What was the topic?
Helen Riding (24:17):
So the topic I was looking at kind of research
activity in primary care and thequality indicators, because
there is a lot of evidenceemerging that research activity
is better for patient outcomes,that it can reduce mortality,
(24:39):
that it's a benefit for thestaff and the organizations. It
helps improve retention. Andthere wasn't any evidence at
that time in primary care. Sowhat I wanted to do was speak to
primary care staff, GPS andpractice managers, to understand
(24:59):
how they felt that taking partin research would potentially
impact the quality in the carethat they provide. So yeah, and
like, since then, there's been alarge NIHR study that's the
findings were released in thelast year. And yeah, and that
(25:22):
evidence continues to growaround that kind of outcome of
quality
Sarah McLusky (25:27):
That's really interesting, that yeah, that
even that just taking part inresearch has benefits for
patients and staff. And yeah,regardless, almost of what it
is, I wonder if it's that senseof feeling that you're doing
something, you know, trying tomake things better.
Helen Riding (25:45):
Yeah, definitely, I think so. I think there's so
many benefits, and I think themajority of staff are very aware
of those benefits, and want todo their best to ensure that
patients can get access to that.And it's good to see that the
evidence is growing around thatoverall benefit to the
(26:09):
organization and patients.
Sarah McLusky (26:11):
Yeah brilliant, really important topic, and any
other things you've done thatyou're particularly proud of?
Helen Riding (26:17):
Yeah, so I think it's seeing the the small
research ideas that then go onto develop into the larger
studies. So I can remember backin 2016 being sat in a in a
small room in a GP surgeryhaving discussions about a
(26:38):
potential study investigatingCOPD, and that has now, after a
few years and a few differentfunding streams, that's now
developed into a large NIHRgrant, and that's currently
being delivered in the NorthEast and North Cumbria, and
(27:01):
that's great to see, becausethere's some conditions,
obviously the North East andNorth Cumbria is a huge area,
but the area has high levels ofchronic obstructive pulmonary
disease, and I think it's areally important topic. So it's
really good that that project isnow really a significant project
(27:23):
that's been funded.
Sarah McLusky (27:24):
Fantastic, yeah, seeing how things grow over
time, always that satisfactionof seeing your baby released out
into the world? Yeah, brilliant.I'm sure, though, that your life
isn't without its challenges. Sowhat are some of the biggest
hurdles that you've had toovercome?
Helen Riding (27:43):
I think I touched on that just before. I think one
of my major hurdles was becominga mature student in my early
30s, when I got made redundant.And I think that was a
challenge, because I don't comefrom a family with a strong
academic background, and I'veoften felt that imposter
(28:10):
syndrome, I think, particularlyin the research world. But I
think as I've got moreexperienced and I undertook my
Masters, and my confidence grew.I think I don't experience that
that much now, but I think atthe time, obviously going
(28:34):
through a redundancy is quitestressful, quite upsetting, and
then suddenly finding yourselfas a mature student, having to
write academically is quitechallenging. And, yeah, and I
think that was probably my mainchallenge over the years, but I
(28:56):
think there's been lots ofothers, but that's
Sarah McLusky (28:58):
That's a pretty that's a pretty big challenge,
though, as you see bothovercoming the mindset stuff
around the imposter experiences,and then also, like you say,
learning, particularly comingfrom writing in a journalistic
way to suddenly having to writein an academic way, which I know
from the work I do, is verydifferent. So, so that's both,
(29:19):
you know, mindset stuff andskill stuff going along. So it's
pretty, pretty big hurdle toovercome, but, but yeah, but
here you are.
Helen Riding (29:27):
Yeah, yeah, definitely that journalistic to
academic is really it's a reallyinteresting aspect, because I
really found that, particularlywhen I was writing for my
dissertation, because I would godefinitely down the more
journalistic side of writing,and it took a while to get my
(29:48):
head around that academic style,which I still don't think I've
got my head around. Well, Idon't think I ever will
Sarah McLusky (29:55):
To be honest, I don't think that's necessarily a
bad thing, yeah, because, youknow, academic writing is
challenging, in and of itself attimes. So yeah, especially when
you want people, like patients,to be able to understand the
projects that you're working on.So yeah, well, with that, maybe
(30:15):
I'd like to ask you, as I do allmy guests, if you had a magic
wand, what would you changeabout the world that you work
in?
Helen Riding (30:24):
There may be many things. So I think, as we
discussed, there's lots ofevidence that research has a
positive impact. So, and thisgoes back to my Masters as well.
I think there's a few thingsthat it would be great to see
(30:45):
happen in order to help NHSorganizations deliver research.
I think one thing that was astrong finding from my Masters
is the dedicated staff helpingsupport research. I think the
(31:08):
day job in the NHS so stressful,particularly in general
practice, so often research isthe least priority, which is
quite right, because, you know,they've got a lot to do, but I
think if there is dedicatedstaff that could potentially
(31:30):
allow research to be deliveredin those practices, which I
think would be great. And thereis examples locally that's
starting to happen, particularlyin more deprived practices in
the North East, which is greatto see, and also kind of
ensuring that the NHS as a wholeis supporting that development
(31:53):
of a research culture, and haveit kind of embedded in what's
expected of organizations thathave it in there, and more
recently, it's been added in theCQC ratings as well.
Sarah McLusky (32:08):
CQC?
Helen Riding (32:09):
So that's the Care Quality Commission. Yeah,
research is recognized withinthe ratings that they provide.
And I think something I've alsotouched on earlier about equity
of access. I think for me, it'sreally important that all
patients, never mind where youlive. Do get that chance to take
(32:32):
part in research? And I thinkthere's a lot of work ongoing to
look at how you know you're in aquite affluent area, but you're
also in a deprived area. Andoften research should be
delivered where there's a need.And sometimes you have to think
about different delivery modelsin different areas. And I think
(32:58):
going back to that embeddedstaff having that to ensure that
they've got the supportnecessary to do that.
Sarah McLusky (33:06):
Yeah oh, it sounds like though as well, all
your examples there stillleading to your north star of
doing things which make adifference for real people in
the real world. Patients,fantastic. Well, it just remains
to say thank you very much forcoming along, having a chat. If
people want to find out moreabout the work you do, or get in
(33:29):
touch, where's the best place totrack you down?
Helen Riding (33:32):
So I'm on LinkedIn, Helen Riding. I'm also
on X. So @RidingHelen, yeah, andthose, and I'm sure you can put
links in the notes.
Sarah McLusky (33:44):
I will. I'll put those links in the show notes.
People can find you there. Sothank you very much. It's been
interesting for me just to heara bit more about what you do.
Yeah, anything else?
Helen Riding (33:54):
Thank you very much for inviting me along
today.
Sarah McLusky (33:59):
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent.
If you're listening in a podcastapp, please check your
subscribed and then use thelinks in the episode description
to find full show notes and tofollow the podcast on LinkedIn
or Instagram. You can also findall the links and other episodes
at www.researchadjacent.com.Research Adjacent is presented
(34:20):
and produced by Sarah McLusky,and the theme music is by Lemon
Music Studios on Pixabay. Andyou, yes you, get a big gold
star for listening right to theend. See you next time you.
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