February 11, 2025 • 38 mins
This episode is all about imposter syndrome and how it shows up for research-adjacent professionals. Sarah’s guest Jenny Brady is a coach and facilitator who previously featured in episode 16.
Sarah and Jenny talk about
- Why Imposter moments are part of being human
- When working with researchers can trigger confidence issues
- Techniques for managing imposter moments including evidence-based reflection, reframing and focusing on strengths
Find out more
- Read the show notes and transcript on the podcast website
- Connect with Jenny on LinkedIn
- Listen to Jenny’s previous appearance on the podcast
Download the Career Compass worksheet
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jenny Brady (00:00):
So if you're a human being, it's likely that at
some point you have felt whatwould be described as an
imposter moment. I think thatimposter moments show up for
research-adjacent professionalsa lot, because there is a true
expectation, still, that we'remeant to have all the answers.
Let's make it easier to ask forhelp. That's what resilience is
(00:21):
in my mind, it's about saying Idon't have everything. Can you
help?
Sarah McLusky (00:27):
Hello there. I'm Sarah McLusky, and this is
Research Adjacent. Each episode,I talk to amazing
research-adjacent professionalsabout what they do and why it
makes a difference. Keeplistening to find out why we
think the research-adjacentspace is where the real magic
happens.
(00:48):
Hello and welcome to ResearchAdjacent. This episode is the
first of a new Challenges miniseries where I'll be taking a
deep dive into concerns whichcrop up again and again for
research-adjacent professionals.As you'll know if you've been
listening for a while, I alwaysask my guests about the
challenges that they've faced intheir career. I also ask the
same question in workshops, andof course, I've got my own
(01:09):
experiences to draw on too, anda few particular sticky
situations and mindset gremlinskeep coming up. They include
imposter moments, isolation,constant change, influencing
others and a lack of developmentopportunities. These are not
necessarily unique toresearch-adjacent professionals,
but they are very common, oftendue to the workplace culture of
(01:31):
research organizations and theway that research-adjacent roles
are situated within them. Well,I wanted to do something to
help, to offer insights, to helpyou feel less alone, and perhaps
some practical tips to makethings feel more manageable. I
decided to find some brilliantresearch-adjacent folks who have
navigated these challengesthemselves and had some wisdom
(01:51):
to share. So at the moment, I'mworking on pulling together five
episodes for the time being,each of which will focus on a
different topic to make surethat you're among the first to
know about each episode, checkthat you're following the show
in your podcast app, and sign upfor the podcast newsletter as
well. You'll find a link in theshow notes.
So today, for our first episode,the focus is imposter syndrome,
(02:13):
or imposter moments, as I am nowgoing to call them, with coach
and facilitator, Jenny Brady.You might remember Jenny from
Episode 16, and if you haven'tlistened to that episode, you'll
find a link in the show notes,or just search through the
podcast back catalogue. Back inthat episode, Jenny talked a bit
about how imposter moments haveshown up in her career. So I
(02:34):
thought I would get her back totell us more. In our
conversation, we talk about whyimposter moments are an
inevitable part of being human,as well as why they're so common
for research adjacentprofessionals. And then, of
course, we talk about what youcan do about them. So if you
have ever had those wobblymoments when you are sure that
you are about to be found out,then this episode is for you.
(02:55):
Listen on for some invaluableinsights.
Welcome back to the podcast,Jenny, it's so lovely to have
you back again, and we're goingto be doing a little bit of a
different episode this time,because we're going to be
talking about a very specifictopic, which is going to be
imposter syndrome, if we call itthat. Maybe we'll come back and
(03:16):
think about exactly what we docall it. I wonder if you could
just say a quick hello and tellus a bit about you, just quick
introduction for anybody whohasn't listened to your first
episode.
Thanks Sarah and thank you forinviting me back as well. As you
say my name is Jenny, and I'm aprofessional coach, researcher
(03:36):
development specialist andfacilitator, and I spend my time
helping individuals to identify,apply and enjoy their personal,
societal and potentiallycommercial impact of their
research or of their choices. Soit's quite a varied role, but I
very much spend most of my timeworking alongside academic
(03:59):
partners.
Yeah fantastic. And when wefirst did that first interview,
we talked a little bit aboutimposter experiences then, which
is one of the reasons I wantedto get you back. And I know it's
something that you talk about alot in the work that you do with
academics. Tell me why is thissomething that you got
interested in in the firstplace?
Jenny Brady (04:21):
I think it's because it affects all of us. So
if you're a human being, it'slikely that at some point you
have felt what would bedescribed as an imposter moment,
and particularly withinacademia, I had my own moments,
and they showed up pretty muchevery day. I worked at a high
(04:41):
profile University, I was putinto a research role, research
adjacent role, should I say, asa non researcher, in a team with
people who had amazing PhDs thatwere, you know, life changing,
changing. These people wereintelligent, useful, impactful
(05:01):
people, and I hadn't done any ofthat, and yet, here was my
responsibility to go and helpresearchers at every stage in
every field of study to be moreenterprising. And I had no idea
where to start. So there wasfull on panic and sort of
squeaky knees moments, and Ithought, well, I need to go and
understand what this is in orderfor me to actually make have my
(05:26):
own personal and professionalimpact and development. So
rather than sitting there sortof staring at the wall and
thinking, oh my goodness, whatnow, I went and asked some
questions, and I found out whatactually makes researchers tick.
And I was genuinely interestedin that anyway, because people
are interesting, and I foundthat lots of their fears aligned
with my own. So suddenly we wererelated in terms of what our
(05:51):
intentions were, what our fearswere. And I looked into ways of
overcoming this, both formyself, but also to help those
researchers to make progress ina way that was meaningful for
them. So imposterism, impostermoments, imposter syndrome, all
of that stuff, of feeling like afraud was very much first hand
(06:12):
experience. And then I realizedthat actually most people around
us are feeling that at somepoint, and the research that I
did and the work that I didhelped me to understand it a lot
more and make use of it, butalso to come up with ways and to
understand other provenpractices of how others can
overcome anything that's holdingthem back from something that
(06:34):
they don't want to be held backfrom. So yeah, very much
personal experience, and thengoing out and finding asking
questions and realizing, Oh,we're all feeling very similar
Sarah McLusky (06:43):
And I think that's that's a lovely way to
here.
start it, because that's exactlywhat's come up with some of the
people, the research adjacentprofessionals that I talk to,
both guests I've had on thepodcast, and then also people
that I've talked to in workshopsand just events and things like
that, is that these imposterexperiences are really, really
(07:04):
common amongst just humanbeings, but, but they seem to be
particularly an issue, peoplekeep telling me about for people
who work in these researchadjacent roles, who are working
alongside these people, who arevery qualified, very
knowledgeable, and yeah, and Ijust wanted to have a
conversation about it so we cangive people some advice on how
(07:25):
they might be able to justmanage those feelings when they
come up. So the first thingsfirst, what do we mean by
imposter syndrome? What are whydo some people like that term?
Why do some people not like thatterm? What are we going to call
it?
Jenny Brady (07:43):
Okay so the dictionary. I've got a
dictionary definition in frontof me, so see what you think of
this, the persistent inabilityto believe that one's success is
deserved or has beenlegitimately achieved as a
result of one's own efforts orskills. So that's directly
lifted from the dictionary, andit basically means I achieved a
(08:04):
thing, and I don't believe I didthat on merit, that somebody
somewhere is going to knock onthe door and say, Oh, we didn't
mean you. You're not meant to behere. We met the person sitting
next to you. You've been herehow long? It wasn't meant to
last that long, etc, etc. Soimagine you're at a fancy party,
and you're all dressed to thenines, and the whole time, you
(08:25):
feel like I'm not meant to behere. I haven't got quite the
right shoes on, or quite theright dress, or, you know,
there's that feeling of I don'tquite fit in here. And imposter
moments are a little bit likethat. It's when you feel like a
fraud, even when you've got theinvite in your hand and it's
been sent to you through thepost and hand delivered to you,
(08:48):
and that you doubt that yourreal achievements are actually
real, or that they are valuableachievements. I had somebody
recently, as was part of acoaching conversation, who said
that her partner had said, Oh,here's a job ad in academia and
and, and it was for researcherdevelopment, actually. And her
(09:12):
immediate response to thatsuggestion of you'd be really
good at this job was, what, me,have you met me before? You know
why me? Maybe he's just beingnice, because clearly I'm a
tragic mess. So we worked onthis understanding of what it is
to feel valued and to feelwelcomed, and there is that
(09:34):
sense of I didn't do it becauseI worked hard. I did it through
luck, somebody opened a door forme, and ever since then, all my
success has been attributed tothat one person, and anything I
got wrong since then has been myfault. So there is this sort of
persistence, I think that's agood word in the dictionary
definition, and the abilityinability to believe in your own
(10:00):
success and your own connectionsand your own sense of
achievement. In terms ofdefinition, I personally prefer
to call it imposter moments. Nowthat's not my term. I worked
with somebody recently onimposter syndrome, and she
mentioned it, and I said, ofcourse, that's exactly the right
thing to call it, because it'snot a syndrome, it's not a
(10:21):
recognized medical condition,and it's not there all the time,
making you doubt absolutelyevery decision. Otherwise, right
now, we'd all be under theduvet, hiding from life in
general, or I'd still be, youknow, staring at that wall 15
years ago, wondering what onearth I'm meant to be doing
next. So it shows up as moments,and those moments actually
(10:41):
sometimes can be quite useful.And when I work with teams or
groups and one to one coachingas well, very often, we can
recognize there's some good bitshere in those moments, and
particularly because they don'tlast forever, because we would
just stop existing, we wouldn'tbe able to manage with them all
of the time, but sometimes theycan be quite a huge obstacle.
(11:05):
They can be a challenge that'sreally hard to overcome, but all
of those moments, eitherpositive or otherwise, can be
managed. And I think boxing themoff as moments helps them
immediately to become a littlebit more manageable than this
feeling of there's somethingwrong with me, I'm wired
incorrectly, or I'm incapable ofdoing anything better than I'm
(11:27):
already doing. So impostermoments are a much friendlier
way to welcome thoseexperiences, rather than be
fighting it all of the time.
Sarah McLusky (11:38):
of their life. There are things. It's these
feelings come and go anddepending on the situation. And
yeah, the the the argumentagainst imposter syndrome isn't
it, is that a syndrome is like amedical condition and something
(11:59):
that's persistent and somethingthat's there all the time, and
it's almost kind of medicalizingbeing a normal human being in a
strange way. So I can see whysyndrome isn't the right word,
but it's finding that, you know,it's that, it's that balance
between something everybodyrecognizes and appreciates and
(12:21):
then, as you say, making it abit more manageable. And a
moment really does make it feellike something that's fleeting
and that comes and goes. Yeah,so, so, yeah, definitely, I've
had my own experiences like you,of those imposter moments coming
up, and the things that peopletell me of why it's such a big
challenge in research adjacentworld, maybe I'll give my own
(12:44):
example which which might helpto explain is that I'd spent so
I did a PhD in science, and thenspent the first 15 years of my
career working in science, andthen I took a job as a project
manager in an arts andhumanities research project. The
skills were very muchtransferable over you know, it
(13:05):
was doing stuff I really knewhow to do, running events,
managing a project, doing publicengagement, all that sort of
stuff, you know, really solid.But I was then thrown in with
academics who were talking aboutstuff I literally had no idea
about. I remember going to thefirst talk, and it was a
(13:26):
philosophy seminar, and, andwhat I remember thinking
afterwards is they're usingwords that I recognize, but
they're putting them together inan order that makes absolutely
no sense to me and and it tookme quite a long time to get my
head around the fact that Ididn't need to understand that
(13:49):
research. Well, not in the levelthat they did. I needed that
kind of superficial level, but Ididn't need to understand the
detail I was there to do theother part of the job, so lots
of people have told me abouthaving similar kinds of
experiences working in theresearch adjacent world, even
(14:10):
people who are even though theyare really accomplished in the
thing they're really beingemployed to do. You know,
whether it's project management,whether it's communications,
whether it's training anddevelopment, but they don't
understand the research at thesame level, and I think that's
one of the reasons it's reallychallenging.
Jenny Brady (14:30):
Yeah, very much so. And I think certainly in
academic communities andenvironments, it's showing up
every day in terms of people'sfeelings and responses to
challenges and how they managetheir own personal resilience
and professional response tothings as well. Thinking back to
when I was within a universityand as a researcher developer
(14:52):
and I my role was as Imentioned, to cover the entire
university with the goldenthread of enterprising behaviors
and mindsets. So that meant thaton my first day of doing that, I
decided that I needed to knoweverything about everybody's
research. Now, this is a biguniversity, and I was one human
being, so I'd set myself up forthe biggest fall or fail that I
(15:16):
could have ever have dreamt upon day one, and it took me, I
don't know, three or four monthsto realize actually, this isn't
going to work. Because, youknow, from one hour to the next,
I'd be working with people whoare specialists in flood waters
in Nepal, who were trying to usecarrots for energy, to fuel
(15:36):
things, etc, etc. Those are thetwo that just jump out of me.
And I could give you hundreds,and it just wasn't working. And
I think the day that I realizedthat actually my reason to be
here is to be interested, to acertain extent, I don't have to
be interesting to anybody, and Ihave to help these people to
(15:56):
make good decisions, to be athinking partner, to help them
think straight and think outloud, and then it's up to them
whatever happens next. So myintentions were to be useful and
to learn some stuff along theway, because who isn't
interested, but also to realizewhat my role was, and to to put
a boundary around that. And theminute I did that, I freed
(16:19):
myself up. I breathed out loud,Ah, here we go. Now I can start
working properly, because I wasgetting in my own way. And I
think that imposter moments showup for research adjacent
professionals a lot, becausethere is a true expectation
still, in 2025, and beyond, Iimagine, that we're meant to
have all the answers, that we'rein this pivotal role of helping
(16:42):
all of these important andclever people do their wondrous
thing. And that's right to anextent, but it's actually to
what level are you there tohelp? And your experience of
being employed in that role isabsolutely right. You You got
the job on merit because of yourprevious experience, and they
needed that. That's the bit theycouldn't do. And you know,
(17:06):
there's this feeling of we'remeant to know all the hacks and
how to how the university worksand how people are meant to
connect, and who everybody is.And also, I think that there is
this sense of withinuniversities are their own
little cultures. And there's auniversity culture, certainly
then there's research culture,and then within that, there's
(17:29):
their own sort of littlecountries, if you will. And you
show up, and you used to live inone country, and then you move
to another, and everyone speaksa different language. The
behaviors are unusual. Peoplemeasure weird things that you
think, am I meant to care aboutthat because I'm meant to get
people in a room by 12 o'clockand that, you know, and that the
(17:52):
training that's happening ismeant to be useful to them, but
they're asking me aboutpublications and how to pay for
certain things and has the grantcome in. Yet I'm not sure what
I'm meant to be doing here. Sothere is this overarching
feeling that we're meant asresearcher development
professionals, meant to know itall, and yet we feel like quite
(18:15):
often we don't know enough. AndI think that it's it's easy to
begin with panic, particularlyif you're new in a role, and if
you're on your own. Quite oftenthat is the case. Teams are
relatively small. Researchersare quite well supported, but
the researcher developersthemselves, quite often, are on
their own. So I think thatthere's this understanding
(18:38):
between if you get everyresearcher development
professional in a room, researchadjacent professionals, they'd
all go, oh yeah, I feel likethat too. So there's a real need
for us to say out loud, I don'tknow the answer to that, but I'm
interested enough to go and findout, and I'm helpful and I'm
useful, and I'm actually wellconnected. That's your role, to
(19:01):
do the research is somebodyelse's job. And honestly, that's
like an aha moment. I realizedwhat I'm here to do, and I think
it's interesting as well,because if you move from one
area to another. So you may havebeen a researcher and then start
to become a research adjacentprofessional. There can be a
temptation to think in aparticular way, whereas,
(19:24):
actually it's useful for you toconsider it from a different
perspective. And it can be aclash of two worlds sometimes as
well. You know, you wanderthrough a door into humanities
from a science background, andeverything just the landscape is
just slightly different, butyou're expected to understand.
So I think there's a realopportunity here for culture
(19:48):
within academia to shiftslightly into making it easy to
say, I don't know the answer. DoI need to know the answer? And
I. And let's all help eachother. So I'm here to be useful
and helpful in all the rightplaces, and I'm going to leave
the rest of it to you, andthat's okay, and that's a
conscious decision. And some ofthe adjustments, I think that
(20:11):
are expected of people whoeither career transition or that
are new to something that theyhaven't previously done, like I
was that those adjustmentsaren't always reasonable, that
you're not meant to know allthose acronyms in week one and
and do you, if you were to askany senior academic, what does
this acronym mean? Nine out of10 times, they'd say, I don't
(20:34):
know, but it opens the door, soI say it anyway. So there's all
these weird sort of behaviorsthat we take on that I'm not
sure, are always useful, butknowing where you are invited to
contribute and to be at peacewith that is absolutely the
first stage, and it quietensthose imposter moment noises
down a little bit to say it'sall right, I'm in control of
(20:57):
this. This is my bit, and therest of it is someone else's,
and that's okay. And I don'tmean to say to just completely
disengage or unhook yourselffrom the other stuff, because,
as you rightly say, it's usefulto have an awareness, but to be
to be completely immersed in it,is actually inappropriate and
will get in the way. So beingtrue about to yourself, about
(21:21):
what you're there to do, is, isa, just a lovely moment, yeah?
Encourage it for everybody Absolutely.
Sarah McLusky (21:28):
Yeah. I think that sense of really focusing
on, you know, my job, these arethe things that I'm here to do.
These are the things that I'mgood at. That's not only is it,
you know, you stay in your lane,you stick with the things you
feel good about. I mean, that'sjust a massive confidence boost
in and of itself. You know,sometimes just looking and say,
(21:48):
yeah, right, okay, maybe theyknow all this stuff about
quantum physics or Frenchphilosophy, um, but they don't
know how to do a mail merge, orthey don't know how to run an
event, or they don't know howto, you know, get people in a
room and talking to each other,and it's thinking about, what
(22:09):
are the things that I'm good at?And that's why I'm here, and
that's what my job is. And I canput those other things aside,
easier said than done. Sometimesit has to be said and often,
often a work in progress.
Do you ever feel like you'restumbling around in your career
journey without a map? Sometimesyou need to pause check where
(22:31):
you are and recalibrate yourCareer Compass to help you do
that, I have a new downloadableworksheet which will guide you
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would most like to improve andtaking your first step on the
journey towards your new career,North Star. You can download the
worksheet for free at researchadjacent.com/compass, or use the
link in the show notes. That'sresearch adjacent.com/compass.
(22:57):
Are there any things that you'vefound that can be useful to do
that process of separating out?
Jenny Brady (23:06):
Yeah, there's, there's lots of tips and
techniques and special thingsthat are out there that people
can look into and and mydisclaimer with any of these
sort of top tips is they won'tall settle with everybody, yeah,
but there are, it's sort of apick and mix, choose what sits
with you and discard the rest,or have a go at things and see
(23:28):
which one settles best with you.And I think the first and the
most proven practice andsomething that is used worldwide
and is really useful forresearch related people and
activities, is looking forevidence. So rather than
(23:49):
deciding, because it feels thatway, that that is true, what
evidence do you have in order toback that up? And there's sort
of a proven technique. So if Igive you an example of somebody
that I worked with fairlyrecently, let's call her Amina,
pardon me, and she recentlyjoined University down south as
(24:13):
a researcher developer, and shewas new to that role. Her
expertise sounds very much likeyours, where she was really good
at connecting people, and reallygood at noticing what people
needed in order to progresstheir careers. She was very
career focused in terms of herexpertise, and she arrived in
(24:33):
the department, and despite allher qualifications and prior
experience and things like that,she felt really overwhelmed by
all of this new language and newbehaviors, etc. So she found
herself worrying over lots ofthings. She ran some training.
She didn't deliver the training,but she made that happen. And
some of the negative commentsthat came in from the feedback
(24:55):
from the participants absolutelystuck, you know, stuck in her.
And she couldn't get rid of itat all. She couldn't overcome
it. So we worked together on herself doubt and disappointment
and things like that, becauseher automatic first thought, her
negative thought, was, I'm nogood at this. I thought, you
know, I thought I'd be allright, and I'm absolutely no
good at it. I'm not qualified. Idon't have a PhD. Oh, this came
(25:18):
up again. Yes, I'm not meant tobe here because these guys know
what they're doing. I don't livethis life. So the first question
is, what evidence did she haveto support that thought? And is
it fair, and is it useful? Andshe'd realized that a
participant had said that thereweren't enough practical
examples during the session,that the coffee was awful.
Sarah McLusky (25:42):
People always complain about the food
Jenny Brady (25:46):
Exactly. Yeah, how important, I don't drink coffee
buut I know how important it isand that Amina didn't give that
particular participant a step bystep career plan that was
bespoke to them. So we had alook at what evidence there was,
right? Here's the evidence. It'sthis feedback. So then the next
question is, what evidence doyou have against that thought?
(26:07):
What proves this wrong? Andthere were actually several
participants at this particulartraining who said how wonderful
it was to have the opportunityto talk to each other. They had
really strong breaks in terms oftime that was protected to just
chat, and that they foundactually, two people had come
out with a collaboration thatthey previously would never have
(26:27):
met, and it just wouldn't havehappened, etc, and that the
sandwiches were wonderful. So,you know, catering won in the
end, it was all right. And sothen looking at these bits of
evidence of what, what could betrue? What? What actually proves
this wrong? It's now, what do wenow think about what actually
happened? And Amina was able toto look at this and think, Well,
(26:50):
actually, there's more evidenceto prove that this was useful to
the majority. I can look at thepractical examples that I can
review these suggestions and putthat in place, because it's
reasonable in this context to tooffer that. What's not
reasonable is that one personout of 30, the room was full,
which is a joy, as we know, andone person out of 30 wanted very
(27:14):
specific, bespoke, tailoredadvice just for them, which is
just unreasonable. So I won'tfocus on that was her thought,
and I can move from that. So shewas also able to recognize where
her expertise as a brand newperson in the department had
really won. And, you know,people were delighted that
somebody else was doing thisreally tricky thing of getting
(27:36):
researchers in one place at onetime, and it worked well for the
majority. So she was able toshift her self criticism over to
something much more constructivethat she could do and that she
could reassure herself with. Ilearned some stuff here. I could
next time I can do this. So it'smuch more about forward
thinking, rather than breakingyour brain over something that's
(27:57):
just happened and that that'swhere you become stuck. So it's
about evidence. That's the firstthing to really look at. But one
of my favorite things to do,which is much quicker, is to
name it and reframe it, which isa coachy term for if you find
yourself saying things like,Well, I'm not as smart as
(28:18):
everybody else here in my team,or in the department, or in the
university, or in life, youknow, let's break let's look at
it. Because human beings, wework in all sorts of different
places and things, and it's muchmore. That's the naming it,
that's what I'm saying tomyself. And the reframe is much
more about everybody learns at adifferent pace. So, you know, I
(28:40):
was selected for this job or forthis PhD program, or for this
team leader role, because Ibring these unique
contributions, because no oneelse does it my way, and they
notice that, and so the peoplewho made the decisions recognize
that as valuable. So it stopsyou from measuring weird stuff,
(29:00):
and it stops you from measuringyour own value and success
against somebody else's. Andthis massively helps you as an
individual in terms of your owncareer decisions as well,
irrespective of where you'reyou're placed. And then the
final thing, and this is superquick, is to remove the word
just anyone who's worked with mepreviously will be going, Oh,
(29:22):
she's mentioning this again, butI'm a huge fan, particularly if
you think about anything whereyou're new in a role, and that
could be PhD, you know, day onePhD. It could be as a researcher
development manager. It could bea research adjacent role within
a university or an institutionwhere you're you're new to this,
(29:46):
and everyone else is talking ina strange way and behaving and
sort of, you're looking aroundwondering what day it is. So you
tell yourself, well, I'm just astudent, or I'm, well, I'm just
the new person, or I'm just on,you know, level one. And that
kind of thing. Just it removesyour agency, but it also removes
your responsibility to get toknow things more and to immerse
(30:08):
yourself further in theappropriate places where you can
actually contribute and beuseful and valuable. So rather
than I'm just a student, forexample, I use this often. How
about I'm an emerging expert inwhat did I say before flood
waters in Nepal? You know? Sorather than, well, it's not my
problem. I'm just we're nowsaying, well, actually, no, I'm
(30:31):
here, and this is what I knowabout this. Rather than I don't
know anything about that, or Idon't know enough about that,
this is what I do know. So I canoffer this, but I'm also really
interested in finding out more,if that's appropriate. If it
isn't, you don't need to knowmore. Don't don't do that bit,
because that's an extra bit ofwork you don't need to do, and
(30:53):
you're actually getting in theway, probably by getting
involved in things that aren'tuseful. So remove the just and
become the I am. I am anemerging expert in so if you're
new to researcher development,you can say I am the researcher
development manager. This iswhat I know about this. And
maybe that's enough, and if itisn't, and you need to find out
(31:14):
more, you can start to ask forhelp. And I think again, this
comes back to the academicculture thing of, let's make it
easier to ask for help and tothat's what resilience is in my
mind. It's about saying, I don'thave everything. Can you help
me? Or I don't have haveeverything yet, but maybe I
will. So these little words justyet, that kind of language is
(31:41):
really important in terms ofidentity and saying, I'm here on
merit, because someone noticedthat I earned that place. Yeah,
and academic communities andcultures are very competitive.
It's a hierarchical system um.So again, it comes back to what
you measuring this against andthe comparisons against the
(32:03):
right things. So I worked, justas a quick example, I worked
with some late stage PhDstudents who were interested in
fellowships, and they wereabsolutely chinning themselves,
as we say in the Northeast,about the people they were
benchmarking themselves against,yeah, the experts. And they
(32:25):
were, they were looking ahead,and that's fair enough. We can
be ambitious, but they weresaying, I need to be there now,
yeah, now, if I used to run afellowship, if a PhD, or if
anybody showed up to afellowship as a fully rounded,
fully completed you know, careerprofessional, you're in the
wrong place. A fellowship isthere for you to develop and
(32:47):
learn. So benchmarking yourselfagainst some, somebody that's 20
steps ahead is pointless. Sostop measuring the weird stuff
and realize that, you know, yougot to that point, and you got
along your journey, and there'sno point in comparing it
somebody else's, because theymight have 50 publications, but
you went to 20 conferences andhave the best network in the
(33:10):
world, but they sat in a roomand wrote all those
publications. But in academia,we go publications, grants. How
amazing, weird metrics, useful.I'm not discounting them. But
there's other stuff that is alsojust as valuable. So stop
measuring the weird stuff. Ithink,
Yeah, some of the weird stuff.Another one that think that
makes me think of as well is somany people think, Oh, I just
(33:34):
need another qualification, yes.Or I need, you know, so maybe I
need to do a PhD so that I fitin here, or maybe I need to do,
you know, some specialistqualification in the area that
they work in. And often thatdoesn't help either, does it?
It really doesn't. And onelovely example of that is
because I quite often work withpeople who are commercializing
(33:55):
their ideas, and there can be asense of my idea isn't going to
change the world, it's not sexyenough. It's not life changing.
It won't make everybody sit upand notice. And you quite often
see this in research niches, ifit's quite a specific thing. I
mentioned carrots earlier. Acolleague of mine did her PhD in
(34:16):
carrots, which to the rest ofus, really,
Sarah McLusky (34:21):
I did a PhD on onions. So, I'm down for this
Jenny Brady (34:25):
And so, so there can be this feeling of, you
yeah,
know, this thing I'm dedicatingmy life to will not be the next
eureka moment. But imagine youone day, you wake up and you
think I'm going to go and buy anE bike, so we'll go
environmentally friendly here.It's not a car, it's a bike, but
(34:46):
it's an electronic bike, and soit's a it's a big investment. I
need to go and get some help. Soyou go to the showroom, you see
the fancy bikes, and the salespeople help you choose and it's
amazing. It's. Beautiful, andyou cycle off the forecourt and
you've got your helmet on it,it's all good, and the bike
falls to pieces because thepeople who work in the workshop
(35:10):
at the back who tighten the nutsdidn't show up that day. So
suddenly, this big, beautifulthing that you've invested loads
of time and money in and iswonderful is missing the key bit
of the nut tightening, becausethose folks didn't show up,
because they thought, Well, I'mnot important enough, because
I'm not the designer of thebeautiful bit of kit. And it's
(35:32):
the same principles. So I, youknow, all hail nut tighteners,
my favorite people, because theymake the world go round. And I
think, you know, researchadjacent professionals are the
same. Without them, stuffdoesn't happen as well. So it
can be this, yeah, this senseof, Well, my stuff isn't quite
as important or or I'm meant toknow all of these things about
(35:54):
everything. Do your bit and doit really well and show up.
Because without your bit, it allfalls apart. And I think that
that's, you know, the nuttightness of the world are
keeping us all all sorted.
Sarah McLusky (36:07):
Yeah, I think that's a fantastic little
comment there to end it on. Sothank you so much. That's been,
I'm sure will be incrediblyuseful for people listening and
you do do coaching with peoplearound this kind of stuff, don't
you? So if anybody wants to getin touch with you, what's the
where's the best place to findyou?
Jenny Brady (36:28):
The best place at the minute is on LinkedIn. So
it's just my name, Jenny Brady,um, the website is coming. I
think I said that last time thatwe spoke, Sarah
Sarah McLusky (36:37):
Get there one day. 2025
Jenny Brady (36:40):
I work with people one to one, and I also work with
with groups and with teams aswell. Imposter moments are a
thing that shows up for so manydifferent types of people, early
stage, late stage, whatever. Newto the job. You know, senior,
everything, and with seniorityoften comes this sense of I've
(37:00):
got so much to lose. So it's amyth that it only happens to
those who are new. Yeah, thefurther up you go, the more it
is. So I'm there to help whoeverneeds the help, basically. So
yeah, LinkedIn is a good placeto come and find me.
Sarah McLusky (37:12):
Brilliant, fantastic. Oh well, thank you so
much again. Always lovely tochat, and thanks for sharing
your wisdom.
Jenny Brady (37:19):
Thank you, Sarah. It's been really good fun.
Sarah McLusky (37:25):
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent.
If you're listening in a podcastapp, please check your
subscribed and then use thelinks in the episode description
to find full show notes andfollow the podcast on LinkedIn
or Instagram. You can also findall the links and other episodes
at www.researchadjacent.com.Research Adjacent is presented
(37:46):
and produced by Sarah McLusky,and the theme music is by Lemon
Music Studios on Pixabay. Andyou, yes you, get a big gold
star for listening right to theend, see you next time.
So if you're a human being, it's likely that at
some point you have felt whatwould be described as an
imposter moment. I think thatimposter moments show up for
research-adjacent professionalsa lot, because there is a true
expectation, still, that we'remeant to have all the answers.
Let's make it easier to ask forhelp. That's what resilience is
(00:21):
in my mind, it's about saying Idon't have everything. Can you
help?
Sarah McLusky (00:27):
Hello there. I'm Sarah McLusky, and this is
Research Adjacent. Each episode,I talk to amazing
research-adjacent professionalsabout what they do and why it
makes a difference. Keeplistening to find out why we
think the research-adjacentspace is where the real magic
happens.
(00:48):
Hello and welcome to ResearchAdjacent. This episode is the
first of a new Challenges miniseries where I'll be taking a
deep dive into concerns whichcrop up again and again for
research-adjacent professionals.As you'll know if you've been
listening for a while, I alwaysask my guests about the
challenges that they've faced intheir career. I also ask the
same question in workshops, andof course, I've got my own
(01:09):
experiences to draw on too, anda few particular sticky
situations and mindset gremlinskeep coming up. They include
imposter moments, isolation,constant change, influencing
others and a lack of developmentopportunities. These are not
necessarily unique toresearch-adjacent professionals,
but they are very common, oftendue to the workplace culture of
(01:31):
research organizations and theway that research-adjacent roles
are situated within them. Well,I wanted to do something to
help, to offer insights, to helpyou feel less alone, and perhaps
some practical tips to makethings feel more manageable. I
decided to find some brilliantresearch-adjacent folks who have
navigated these challengesthemselves and had some wisdom
(01:51):
to share. So at the moment, I'mworking on pulling together five
episodes for the time being,each of which will focus on a
different topic to make surethat you're among the first to
know about each episode, checkthat you're following the show
in your podcast app, and sign upfor the podcast newsletter as
well. You'll find a link in theshow notes.
So today, for our first episode,the focus is imposter syndrome,
(02:13):
or imposter moments, as I am nowgoing to call them, with coach
and facilitator, Jenny Brady.You might remember Jenny from
Episode 16, and if you haven'tlistened to that episode, you'll
find a link in the show notes,or just search through the
podcast back catalogue. Back inthat episode, Jenny talked a bit
about how imposter moments haveshown up in her career. So I
(02:34):
thought I would get her back totell us more. In our
conversation, we talk about whyimposter moments are an
inevitable part of being human,as well as why they're so common
for research adjacentprofessionals. And then, of
course, we talk about what youcan do about them. So if you
have ever had those wobblymoments when you are sure that
you are about to be found out,then this episode is for you.
(02:55):
Listen on for some invaluableinsights.
Welcome back to the podcast,Jenny, it's so lovely to have
you back again, and we're goingto be doing a little bit of a
different episode this time,because we're going to be
talking about a very specifictopic, which is going to be
imposter syndrome, if we call itthat. Maybe we'll come back and
(03:16):
think about exactly what we docall it. I wonder if you could
just say a quick hello and tellus a bit about you, just quick
introduction for anybody whohasn't listened to your first
episode.
Thanks Sarah and thank you forinviting me back as well. As you
say my name is Jenny, and I'm aprofessional coach, researcher
(03:36):
development specialist andfacilitator, and I spend my time
helping individuals to identify,apply and enjoy their personal,
societal and potentiallycommercial impact of their
research or of their choices. Soit's quite a varied role, but I
very much spend most of my timeworking alongside academic
(03:59):
partners.
Yeah fantastic. And when wefirst did that first interview,
we talked a little bit aboutimposter experiences then, which
is one of the reasons I wantedto get you back. And I know it's
something that you talk about alot in the work that you do with
academics. Tell me why is thissomething that you got
interested in in the firstplace?
Jenny Brady (04:21):
I think it's because it affects all of us. So
if you're a human being, it'slikely that at some point you
have felt what would bedescribed as an imposter moment,
and particularly withinacademia, I had my own moments,
and they showed up pretty muchevery day. I worked at a high
(04:41):
profile University, I was putinto a research role, research
adjacent role, should I say, asa non researcher, in a team with
people who had amazing PhDs thatwere, you know, life changing,
changing. These people wereintelligent, useful, impactful
(05:01):
people, and I hadn't done any ofthat, and yet, here was my
responsibility to go and helpresearchers at every stage in
every field of study to be moreenterprising. And I had no idea
where to start. So there wasfull on panic and sort of
squeaky knees moments, and Ithought, well, I need to go and
understand what this is in orderfor me to actually make have my
(05:26):
own personal and professionalimpact and development. So
rather than sitting there sortof staring at the wall and
thinking, oh my goodness, whatnow, I went and asked some
questions, and I found out whatactually makes researchers tick.
And I was genuinely interestedin that anyway, because people
are interesting, and I foundthat lots of their fears aligned
with my own. So suddenly we wererelated in terms of what our
(05:51):
intentions were, what our fearswere. And I looked into ways of
overcoming this, both formyself, but also to help those
researchers to make progress ina way that was meaningful for
them. So imposterism, impostermoments, imposter syndrome, all
of that stuff, of feeling like afraud was very much first hand
(06:12):
experience. And then I realizedthat actually most people around
us are feeling that at somepoint, and the research that I
did and the work that I didhelped me to understand it a lot
more and make use of it, butalso to come up with ways and to
understand other provenpractices of how others can
overcome anything that's holdingthem back from something that
(06:34):
they don't want to be held backfrom. So yeah, very much
personal experience, and thengoing out and finding asking
questions and realizing, Oh,we're all feeling very similar
Sarah McLusky (06:43):
And I think that's that's a lovely way to
here.
start it, because that's exactlywhat's come up with some of the
people, the research adjacentprofessionals that I talk to,
both guests I've had on thepodcast, and then also people
that I've talked to in workshopsand just events and things like
that, is that these imposterexperiences are really, really
(07:04):
common amongst just humanbeings, but, but they seem to be
particularly an issue, peoplekeep telling me about for people
who work in these researchadjacent roles, who are working
alongside these people, who arevery qualified, very
knowledgeable, and yeah, and Ijust wanted to have a
conversation about it so we cangive people some advice on how
(07:25):
they might be able to justmanage those feelings when they
come up. So the first thingsfirst, what do we mean by
imposter syndrome? What are whydo some people like that term?
Why do some people not like thatterm? What are we going to call
it?
Jenny Brady (07:43):
Okay so the dictionary. I've got a
dictionary definition in frontof me, so see what you think of
this, the persistent inabilityto believe that one's success is
deserved or has beenlegitimately achieved as a
result of one's own efforts orskills. So that's directly
lifted from the dictionary, andit basically means I achieved a
(08:04):
thing, and I don't believe I didthat on merit, that somebody
somewhere is going to knock onthe door and say, Oh, we didn't
mean you. You're not meant to behere. We met the person sitting
next to you. You've been herehow long? It wasn't meant to
last that long, etc, etc. Soimagine you're at a fancy party,
and you're all dressed to thenines, and the whole time, you
(08:25):
feel like I'm not meant to behere. I haven't got quite the
right shoes on, or quite theright dress, or, you know,
there's that feeling of I don'tquite fit in here. And imposter
moments are a little bit likethat. It's when you feel like a
fraud, even when you've got theinvite in your hand and it's
been sent to you through thepost and hand delivered to you,
(08:48):
and that you doubt that yourreal achievements are actually
real, or that they are valuableachievements. I had somebody
recently, as was part of acoaching conversation, who said
that her partner had said, Oh,here's a job ad in academia and
and, and it was for researcherdevelopment, actually. And her
(09:12):
immediate response to thatsuggestion of you'd be really
good at this job was, what, me,have you met me before? You know
why me? Maybe he's just beingnice, because clearly I'm a
tragic mess. So we worked onthis understanding of what it is
to feel valued and to feelwelcomed, and there is that
(09:34):
sense of I didn't do it becauseI worked hard. I did it through
luck, somebody opened a door forme, and ever since then, all my
success has been attributed tothat one person, and anything I
got wrong since then has been myfault. So there is this sort of
persistence, I think that's agood word in the dictionary
definition, and the abilityinability to believe in your own
(10:00):
success and your own connectionsand your own sense of
achievement. In terms ofdefinition, I personally prefer
to call it imposter moments. Nowthat's not my term. I worked
with somebody recently onimposter syndrome, and she
mentioned it, and I said, ofcourse, that's exactly the right
thing to call it, because it'snot a syndrome, it's not a
(10:21):
recognized medical condition,and it's not there all the time,
making you doubt absolutelyevery decision. Otherwise, right
now, we'd all be under theduvet, hiding from life in
general, or I'd still be, youknow, staring at that wall 15
years ago, wondering what onearth I'm meant to be doing
next. So it shows up as moments,and those moments actually
(10:41):
sometimes can be quite useful.And when I work with teams or
groups and one to one coachingas well, very often, we can
recognize there's some good bitshere in those moments, and
particularly because they don'tlast forever, because we would
just stop existing, we wouldn'tbe able to manage with them all
of the time, but sometimes theycan be quite a huge obstacle.
(11:05):
They can be a challenge that'sreally hard to overcome, but all
of those moments, eitherpositive or otherwise, can be
managed. And I think boxing themoff as moments helps them
immediately to become a littlebit more manageable than this
feeling of there's somethingwrong with me, I'm wired
incorrectly, or I'm incapable ofdoing anything better than I'm
(11:27):
already doing. So impostermoments are a much friendlier
way to welcome thoseexperiences, rather than be
fighting it all of the time.
Sarah McLusky (11:38):
of their life. There are things. It's these
feelings come and go anddepending on the situation. And
yeah, the the the argumentagainst imposter syndrome isn't
it, is that a syndrome is like amedical condition and something
(11:59):
that's persistent and somethingthat's there all the time, and
it's almost kind of medicalizingbeing a normal human being in a
strange way. So I can see whysyndrome isn't the right word,
but it's finding that, you know,it's that, it's that balance
between something everybodyrecognizes and appreciates and
(12:21):
then, as you say, making it abit more manageable. And a
moment really does make it feellike something that's fleeting
and that comes and goes. Yeah,so, so, yeah, definitely, I've
had my own experiences like you,of those imposter moments coming
up, and the things that peopletell me of why it's such a big
challenge in research adjacentworld, maybe I'll give my own
(12:44):
example which which might helpto explain is that I'd spent so
I did a PhD in science, and thenspent the first 15 years of my
career working in science, andthen I took a job as a project
manager in an arts andhumanities research project. The
skills were very muchtransferable over you know, it
(13:05):
was doing stuff I really knewhow to do, running events,
managing a project, doing publicengagement, all that sort of
stuff, you know, really solid.But I was then thrown in with
academics who were talking aboutstuff I literally had no idea
about. I remember going to thefirst talk, and it was a
(13:26):
philosophy seminar, and, andwhat I remember thinking
afterwards is they're usingwords that I recognize, but
they're putting them together inan order that makes absolutely
no sense to me and and it tookme quite a long time to get my
head around the fact that Ididn't need to understand that
(13:49):
research. Well, not in the levelthat they did. I needed that
kind of superficial level, but Ididn't need to understand the
detail I was there to do theother part of the job, so lots
of people have told me abouthaving similar kinds of
experiences working in theresearch adjacent world, even
(14:10):
people who are even though theyare really accomplished in the
thing they're really beingemployed to do. You know,
whether it's project management,whether it's communications,
whether it's training anddevelopment, but they don't
understand the research at thesame level, and I think that's
one of the reasons it's reallychallenging.
Jenny Brady (14:30):
Yeah, very much so. And I think certainly in
academic communities andenvironments, it's showing up
every day in terms of people'sfeelings and responses to
challenges and how they managetheir own personal resilience
and professional response tothings as well. Thinking back to
when I was within a universityand as a researcher developer
(14:52):
and I my role was as Imentioned, to cover the entire
university with the goldenthread of enterprising behaviors
and mindsets. So that meant thaton my first day of doing that, I
decided that I needed to knoweverything about everybody's
research. Now, this is a biguniversity, and I was one human
being, so I'd set myself up forthe biggest fall or fail that I
(15:16):
could have ever have dreamt upon day one, and it took me, I
don't know, three or four monthsto realize actually, this isn't
going to work. Because, youknow, from one hour to the next,
I'd be working with people whoare specialists in flood waters
in Nepal, who were trying to usecarrots for energy, to fuel
(15:36):
things, etc, etc. Those are thetwo that just jump out of me.
And I could give you hundreds,and it just wasn't working. And
I think the day that I realizedthat actually my reason to be
here is to be interested, to acertain extent, I don't have to
be interesting to anybody, and Ihave to help these people to
(15:56):
make good decisions, to be athinking partner, to help them
think straight and think outloud, and then it's up to them
whatever happens next. So myintentions were to be useful and
to learn some stuff along theway, because who isn't
interested, but also to realizewhat my role was, and to to put
a boundary around that. And theminute I did that, I freed
(16:19):
myself up. I breathed out loud,Ah, here we go. Now I can start
working properly, because I wasgetting in my own way. And I
think that imposter moments showup for research adjacent
professionals a lot, becausethere is a true expectation
still, in 2025, and beyond, Iimagine, that we're meant to
have all the answers, that we'rein this pivotal role of helping
(16:42):
all of these important andclever people do their wondrous
thing. And that's right to anextent, but it's actually to
what level are you there tohelp? And your experience of
being employed in that role isabsolutely right. You You got
the job on merit because of yourprevious experience, and they
needed that. That's the bit theycouldn't do. And you know,
(17:06):
there's this feeling of we'remeant to know all the hacks and
how to how the university worksand how people are meant to
connect, and who everybody is.And also, I think that there is
this sense of withinuniversities are their own
little cultures. And there's auniversity culture, certainly
then there's research culture,and then within that, there's
(17:29):
their own sort of littlecountries, if you will. And you
show up, and you used to live inone country, and then you move
to another, and everyone speaksa different language. The
behaviors are unusual. Peoplemeasure weird things that you
think, am I meant to care aboutthat because I'm meant to get
people in a room by 12 o'clockand that, you know, and that the
(17:52):
training that's happening ismeant to be useful to them, but
they're asking me aboutpublications and how to pay for
certain things and has the grantcome in. Yet I'm not sure what
I'm meant to be doing here. Sothere is this overarching
feeling that we're meant asresearcher development
professionals, meant to know itall, and yet we feel like quite
(18:15):
often we don't know enough. AndI think that it's it's easy to
begin with panic, particularlyif you're new in a role, and if
you're on your own. Quite oftenthat is the case. Teams are
relatively small. Researchersare quite well supported, but
the researcher developersthemselves, quite often, are on
their own. So I think thatthere's this understanding
(18:38):
between if you get everyresearcher development
professional in a room, researchadjacent professionals, they'd
all go, oh yeah, I feel likethat too. So there's a real need
for us to say out loud, I don'tknow the answer to that, but I'm
interested enough to go and findout, and I'm helpful and I'm
useful, and I'm actually wellconnected. That's your role, to
(19:01):
do the research is somebodyelse's job. And honestly, that's
like an aha moment. I realizedwhat I'm here to do, and I think
it's interesting as well,because if you move from one
area to another. So you may havebeen a researcher and then start
to become a research adjacentprofessional. There can be a
temptation to think in aparticular way, whereas,
(19:24):
actually it's useful for you toconsider it from a different
perspective. And it can be aclash of two worlds sometimes as
well. You know, you wanderthrough a door into humanities
from a science background, andeverything just the landscape is
just slightly different, butyou're expected to understand.
So I think there's a realopportunity here for culture
(19:48):
within academia to shiftslightly into making it easy to
say, I don't know the answer. DoI need to know the answer? And
I. And let's all help eachother. So I'm here to be useful
and helpful in all the rightplaces, and I'm going to leave
the rest of it to you, andthat's okay, and that's a
conscious decision. And some ofthe adjustments, I think that
(20:11):
are expected of people whoeither career transition or that
are new to something that theyhaven't previously done, like I
was that those adjustmentsaren't always reasonable, that
you're not meant to know allthose acronyms in week one and
and do you, if you were to askany senior academic, what does
this acronym mean? Nine out of10 times, they'd say, I don't
(20:34):
know, but it opens the door, soI say it anyway. So there's all
these weird sort of behaviorsthat we take on that I'm not
sure, are always useful, butknowing where you are invited to
contribute and to be at peacewith that is absolutely the
first stage, and it quietensthose imposter moment noises
down a little bit to say it'sall right, I'm in control of
(20:57):
this. This is my bit, and therest of it is someone else's,
and that's okay. And I don'tmean to say to just completely
disengage or unhook yourselffrom the other stuff, because,
as you rightly say, it's usefulto have an awareness, but to be
to be completely immersed in it,is actually inappropriate and
will get in the way. So beingtrue about to yourself, about
(21:21):
what you're there to do, is, isa, just a lovely moment, yeah?
Encourage it for everybody Absolutely.
Sarah McLusky (21:28):
Yeah. I think that sense of really focusing
on, you know, my job, these arethe things that I'm here to do.
These are the things that I'mgood at. That's not only is it,
you know, you stay in your lane,you stick with the things you
feel good about. I mean, that'sjust a massive confidence boost
in and of itself. You know,sometimes just looking and say,
(21:48):
yeah, right, okay, maybe theyknow all this stuff about
quantum physics or Frenchphilosophy, um, but they don't
know how to do a mail merge, orthey don't know how to run an
event, or they don't know howto, you know, get people in a
room and talking to each other,and it's thinking about, what
(22:09):
are the things that I'm good at?And that's why I'm here, and
that's what my job is. And I canput those other things aside,
easier said than done. Sometimesit has to be said and often,
often a work in progress.
Do you ever feel like you'restumbling around in your career
journey without a map? Sometimesyou need to pause check where
(22:31):
you are and recalibrate yourCareer Compass to help you do
that, I have a new downloadableworksheet which will guide you
through assessing your currentsituation, figuring out what you
would most like to improve andtaking your first step on the
journey towards your new career,North Star. You can download the
worksheet for free at researchadjacent.com/compass, or use the
link in the show notes. That'sresearch adjacent.com/compass.
(22:57):
Are there any things that you'vefound that can be useful to do
that process of separating out?
Jenny Brady (23:06):
Yeah, there's, there's lots of tips and
techniques and special thingsthat are out there that people
can look into and and mydisclaimer with any of these
sort of top tips is they won'tall settle with everybody, yeah,
but there are, it's sort of apick and mix, choose what sits
with you and discard the rest,or have a go at things and see
(23:28):
which one settles best with you.And I think the first and the
most proven practice andsomething that is used worldwide
and is really useful forresearch related people and
activities, is looking forevidence. So rather than
(23:49):
deciding, because it feels thatway, that that is true, what
evidence do you have in order toback that up? And there's sort
of a proven technique. So if Igive you an example of somebody
that I worked with fairlyrecently, let's call her Amina,
pardon me, and she recentlyjoined University down south as
(24:13):
a researcher developer, and shewas new to that role. Her
expertise sounds very much likeyours, where she was really good
at connecting people, and reallygood at noticing what people
needed in order to progresstheir careers. She was very
career focused in terms of herexpertise, and she arrived in
(24:33):
the department, and despite allher qualifications and prior
experience and things like that,she felt really overwhelmed by
all of this new language and newbehaviors, etc. So she found
herself worrying over lots ofthings. She ran some training.
She didn't deliver the training,but she made that happen. And
some of the negative commentsthat came in from the feedback
(24:55):
from the participants absolutelystuck, you know, stuck in her.
And she couldn't get rid of itat all. She couldn't overcome
it. So we worked together on herself doubt and disappointment
and things like that, becauseher automatic first thought, her
negative thought, was, I'm nogood at this. I thought, you
know, I thought I'd be allright, and I'm absolutely no
good at it. I'm not qualified. Idon't have a PhD. Oh, this came
(25:18):
up again. Yes, I'm not meant tobe here because these guys know
what they're doing. I don't livethis life. So the first question
is, what evidence did she haveto support that thought? And is
it fair, and is it useful? Andshe'd realized that a
participant had said that thereweren't enough practical
examples during the session,that the coffee was awful.
Sarah McLusky (25:42):
People always complain about the food
Jenny Brady (25:46):
Exactly. Yeah, how important, I don't drink coffee
buut I know how important it isand that Amina didn't give that
particular participant a step bystep career plan that was
bespoke to them. So we had alook at what evidence there was,
right? Here's the evidence. It'sthis feedback. So then the next
question is, what evidence doyou have against that thought?
(26:07):
What proves this wrong? Andthere were actually several
participants at this particulartraining who said how wonderful
it was to have the opportunityto talk to each other. They had
really strong breaks in terms oftime that was protected to just
chat, and that they foundactually, two people had come
out with a collaboration thatthey previously would never have
(26:27):
met, and it just wouldn't havehappened, etc, and that the
sandwiches were wonderful. So,you know, catering won in the
end, it was all right. And sothen looking at these bits of
evidence of what, what could betrue? What? What actually proves
this wrong? It's now, what do wenow think about what actually
happened? And Amina was able toto look at this and think, Well,
(26:50):
actually, there's more evidenceto prove that this was useful to
the majority. I can look at thepractical examples that I can
review these suggestions and putthat in place, because it's
reasonable in this context to tooffer that. What's not
reasonable is that one personout of 30, the room was full,
which is a joy, as we know, andone person out of 30 wanted very
(27:14):
specific, bespoke, tailoredadvice just for them, which is
just unreasonable. So I won'tfocus on that was her thought,
and I can move from that. So shewas also able to recognize where
her expertise as a brand newperson in the department had
really won. And, you know,people were delighted that
somebody else was doing thisreally tricky thing of getting
(27:36):
researchers in one place at onetime, and it worked well for the
majority. So she was able toshift her self criticism over to
something much more constructivethat she could do and that she
could reassure herself with. Ilearned some stuff here. I could
next time I can do this. So it'smuch more about forward
thinking, rather than breakingyour brain over something that's
(27:57):
just happened and that that'swhere you become stuck. So it's
about evidence. That's the firstthing to really look at. But one
of my favorite things to do,which is much quicker, is to
name it and reframe it, which isa coachy term for if you find
yourself saying things like,Well, I'm not as smart as
(28:18):
everybody else here in my team,or in the department, or in the
university, or in life, youknow, let's break let's look at
it. Because human beings, wework in all sorts of different
places and things, and it's muchmore. That's the naming it,
that's what I'm saying tomyself. And the reframe is much
more about everybody learns at adifferent pace. So, you know, I
(28:40):
was selected for this job or forthis PhD program, or for this
team leader role, because Ibring these unique
contributions, because no oneelse does it my way, and they
notice that, and so the peoplewho made the decisions recognize
that as valuable. So it stopsyou from measuring weird stuff,
(29:00):
and it stops you from measuringyour own value and success
against somebody else's. Andthis massively helps you as an
individual in terms of your owncareer decisions as well,
irrespective of where you'reyou're placed. And then the
final thing, and this is superquick, is to remove the word
just anyone who's worked with mepreviously will be going, Oh,
(29:22):
she's mentioning this again, butI'm a huge fan, particularly if
you think about anything whereyou're new in a role, and that
could be PhD, you know, day onePhD. It could be as a researcher
development manager. It could bea research adjacent role within
a university or an institutionwhere you're you're new to this,
(29:46):
and everyone else is talking ina strange way and behaving and
sort of, you're looking aroundwondering what day it is. So you
tell yourself, well, I'm just astudent, or I'm, well, I'm just
the new person, or I'm just on,you know, level one. And that
kind of thing. Just it removesyour agency, but it also removes
your responsibility to get toknow things more and to immerse
(30:08):
yourself further in theappropriate places where you can
actually contribute and beuseful and valuable. So rather
than I'm just a student, forexample, I use this often. How
about I'm an emerging expert inwhat did I say before flood
waters in Nepal? You know? Sorather than, well, it's not my
problem. I'm just we're nowsaying, well, actually, no, I'm
(30:31):
here, and this is what I knowabout this. Rather than I don't
know anything about that, or Idon't know enough about that,
this is what I do know. So I canoffer this, but I'm also really
interested in finding out more,if that's appropriate. If it
isn't, you don't need to knowmore. Don't don't do that bit,
because that's an extra bit ofwork you don't need to do, and
(30:53):
you're actually getting in theway, probably by getting
involved in things that aren'tuseful. So remove the just and
become the I am. I am anemerging expert in so if you're
new to researcher development,you can say I am the researcher
development manager. This iswhat I know about this. And
maybe that's enough, and if itisn't, and you need to find out
(31:14):
more, you can start to ask forhelp. And I think again, this
comes back to the academicculture thing of, let's make it
easier to ask for help and tothat's what resilience is in my
mind. It's about saying, I don'thave everything. Can you help
me? Or I don't have haveeverything yet, but maybe I
will. So these little words justyet, that kind of language is
(31:41):
really important in terms ofidentity and saying, I'm here on
merit, because someone noticedthat I earned that place. Yeah,
and academic communities andcultures are very competitive.
It's a hierarchical system um.So again, it comes back to what
you measuring this against andthe comparisons against the
(32:03):
right things. So I worked, justas a quick example, I worked
with some late stage PhDstudents who were interested in
fellowships, and they wereabsolutely chinning themselves,
as we say in the Northeast,about the people they were
benchmarking themselves against,yeah, the experts. And they
(32:25):
were, they were looking ahead,and that's fair enough. We can
be ambitious, but they weresaying, I need to be there now,
yeah, now, if I used to run afellowship, if a PhD, or if
anybody showed up to afellowship as a fully rounded,
fully completed you know, careerprofessional, you're in the
wrong place. A fellowship isthere for you to develop and
(32:47):
learn. So benchmarking yourselfagainst some, somebody that's 20
steps ahead is pointless. Sostop measuring the weird stuff
and realize that, you know, yougot to that point, and you got
along your journey, and there'sno point in comparing it
somebody else's, because theymight have 50 publications, but
you went to 20 conferences andhave the best network in the
(33:10):
world, but they sat in a roomand wrote all those
publications. But in academia,we go publications, grants. How
amazing, weird metrics, useful.I'm not discounting them. But
there's other stuff that is alsojust as valuable. So stop
measuring the weird stuff. Ithink,
Yeah, some of the weird stuff.Another one that think that
makes me think of as well is somany people think, Oh, I just
(33:34):
need another qualification, yes.Or I need, you know, so maybe I
need to do a PhD so that I fitin here, or maybe I need to do,
you know, some specialistqualification in the area that
they work in. And often thatdoesn't help either, does it?
It really doesn't. And onelovely example of that is
because I quite often work withpeople who are commercializing
(33:55):
their ideas, and there can be asense of my idea isn't going to
change the world, it's not sexyenough. It's not life changing.
It won't make everybody sit upand notice. And you quite often
see this in research niches, ifit's quite a specific thing. I
mentioned carrots earlier. Acolleague of mine did her PhD in
(34:16):
carrots, which to the rest ofus, really,
Sarah McLusky (34:21):
I did a PhD on onions. So, I'm down for this
Jenny Brady (34:25):
And so, so there can be this feeling of, you
yeah,
know, this thing I'm dedicatingmy life to will not be the next
eureka moment. But imagine youone day, you wake up and you
think I'm going to go and buy anE bike, so we'll go
environmentally friendly here.It's not a car, it's a bike, but
(34:46):
it's an electronic bike, and soit's a it's a big investment. I
need to go and get some help. Soyou go to the showroom, you see
the fancy bikes, and the salespeople help you choose and it's
amazing. It's. Beautiful, andyou cycle off the forecourt and
you've got your helmet on it,it's all good, and the bike
falls to pieces because thepeople who work in the workshop
(35:10):
at the back who tighten the nutsdidn't show up that day. So
suddenly, this big, beautifulthing that you've invested loads
of time and money in and iswonderful is missing the key bit
of the nut tightening, becausethose folks didn't show up,
because they thought, Well, I'mnot important enough, because
I'm not the designer of thebeautiful bit of kit. And it's
(35:32):
the same principles. So I, youknow, all hail nut tighteners,
my favorite people, because theymake the world go round. And I
think, you know, researchadjacent professionals are the
same. Without them, stuffdoesn't happen as well. So it
can be this, yeah, this senseof, Well, my stuff isn't quite
as important or or I'm meant toknow all of these things about
(35:54):
everything. Do your bit and doit really well and show up.
Because without your bit, it allfalls apart. And I think that
that's, you know, the nuttightness of the world are
keeping us all all sorted.
Sarah McLusky (36:07):
Yeah, I think that's a fantastic little
comment there to end it on. Sothank you so much. That's been,
I'm sure will be incrediblyuseful for people listening and
you do do coaching with peoplearound this kind of stuff, don't
you? So if anybody wants to getin touch with you, what's the
where's the best place to findyou?
Jenny Brady (36:28):
The best place at the minute is on LinkedIn. So
it's just my name, Jenny Brady,um, the website is coming. I
think I said that last time thatwe spoke, Sarah
Sarah McLusky (36:37):
Get there one day. 2025
Jenny Brady (36:40):
I work with people one to one, and I also work with
with groups and with teams aswell. Imposter moments are a
thing that shows up for so manydifferent types of people, early
stage, late stage, whatever. Newto the job. You know, senior,
everything, and with seniorityoften comes this sense of I've
(37:00):
got so much to lose. So it's amyth that it only happens to
those who are new. Yeah, thefurther up you go, the more it
is. So I'm there to help whoeverneeds the help, basically. So
yeah, LinkedIn is a good placeto come and find me.
Sarah McLusky (37:12):
Brilliant, fantastic. Oh well, thank you so
much again. Always lovely tochat, and thanks for sharing
your wisdom.
Jenny Brady (37:19):
Thank you, Sarah. It's been really good fun.
Sarah McLusky (37:25):
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent.
If you're listening in a podcastapp, please check your
subscribed and then use thelinks in the episode description
to find full show notes andfollow the podcast on LinkedIn
or Instagram. You can also findall the links and other episodes
at www.researchadjacent.com.Research Adjacent is presented
(37:46):
and produced by Sarah McLusky,and the theme music is by Lemon
Music Studios on Pixabay. Andyou, yes you, get a big gold
star for listening right to theend, see you next time.
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