February 25, 2025 • 35 mins
This episode is all about navigating change in the research and higher education world. Sarah’s guest is Andrew Millar, Head of Web Services at the University of Dundee.
Sarah and Andrew talk about
- Seeing change as an evolution not a revolution
- Why open communication is essential for anyone managing change
- The importance of finding a sense of control amid change
- What changes are coming for higher education in 2025 and beyond
Find out more
- Read the show notes and transcript on the podcast website
- Connect with Andrew on LinkedIn
- Andrew’s Predictions for 2025 LinkedIn article
Download the Career Compass worksheet
About Research Adjacent
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andrew Millar (00:00):
Being open to change, I think, helps you
mitigate some of the challengesof that change. And that's where
the barriers come up. That'swhere people start to go. I'm
not doing this because I do notfeel safe. You'll follow anybody
anywhere if you feel that theyare with you on the journey.
Sarah McLusky (00:18):
Hello there. I'm Sarah McLusky, and this is
Research Adjacent. Each episode,I talk to amazing
research-adjacent professionalsabout what they do and why it
makes a difference. Keeplistening to find out why we
think the research-adjacentspace is where the real magic
happens.
(00:40):
Hello and welcome to ResearchAdjacent. This episode is the
second in the Challenges miniseries where I'm taking a deep
dive into some of the stickysituations and mindset gremlins
that are common forresearch-adjacent professionals.
In the last episode, we focusedon imposter moments with Jenny
Brady. But today, for part two,we're going to be navigating
change with Andrew Miller as ourexpert guide. Andrew is Head of
(01:04):
Web Services at the Universityof Dundee. He's worked in higher
education for 20 years, so hasseen a lot of change in that
time, especially within aspecialism like computing.
Andrew came onto my radar thanksto previous guest, Orla Kelly,
because he often writes andspeaks about navigating change
from the perspective of anindividual, as a manager, an
(01:24):
organization, or even from theperspective of the whole higher
education sector. So if this isa topic that you are interested
in, make sure that you connectwith Andrew on LinkedIn. You'll
find a link in the show notes.
So what about today's episode?We are talking about navigating
change in both the research andhigher education worlds. We talk
(01:47):
about why change can bechallenging for both individuals
and for large, complex, ancientand modern organizations like
universities. We discuss whyhaving a sense of control is so
important, and why being open tochange can be transformational.
We also explore some of thechanges that Andrew thinks are
coming for the HE sector,including the rollout of AI and
(02:07):
universities rethinking theirpurpose. Whether you're a self
confessed change enthusiast likeme or someone who likes
everything to stay just thesame, listen on. You'll get some
valuable insights
Welcome along to the podcast.Andrew, thank you so much for
coming along for a chat todayabout navigating change in the
(02:30):
research world. Before we startour conversation, would you like
to tell us a bit about what itis that you do?
Andrew Millar (02:37):
Yes. So I'm Head of Web Services for the
University of Dundee, and thatmeans that I am responsible for,
I suppose, the webinfrastructure, web strategy,
web content, everything, webrelated, really, and kind of
more broadening out from that,the social media side of things,
and more digital landscape aswell. So everything from the
(02:59):
infrastructure right up to thecontent strategy and stuff that
appears sits within my lovelyremit. So that is me
Sarah McLusky (03:06):
Fantastic. And it's certainly a role where even
just within your own job, theremust be a lot of change. But
you've been very vocal. One ofthe reasons our paths cross is
because you do talk a lot aboutchange within the higher
education and the researchworld. So what was it that got
you interested in this topic inthe first place?
Andrew Millar (03:29):
It's because it's just happening, you know,
constantly to us, I've been inhigher education for 20 years
now, so I'm of that kind of agewhere I can look back, I can see
where things have changed, wherethings have got better, where
things have got worse, andstarting to look at the human
cost of change as well. So verymuch. I'm a tech person. I like
(03:51):
technology. I like the changethat can bring. But more and
more as we go through thesethings, it's the human cost that
interests me and how you leadteams through change that's
almost as as interesting as thetech that's, you know, making
the change possible as well. Sothat's kind of how I kind of got
into or why I'm so vocal aboutthese things as well.
Sarah McLusky (04:13):
Yeah, well, certainly the human cost of
change is the sort of thing I'mreally interested in, and it is
something. The reason I wantedto do podcast episode on this
topic is because that whenever Iam talking to whether it's
people who are working inuniversities, whether working
in, you know, industry andcollaborating with universities,
this sense of things both alwayschanging. So there's this
(04:38):
constant churn lots of people onshort term contracts, short term
research grants, things likethat. But then also the fact
that these are really bigorganizations, and that really
big organizations can reallystruggle with change so
universities and the researchworlds in a really funny little
(04:58):
kind of midpoint. Where there'salmost so much change forced
upon it, but it's notnecessarily that great at
navigating it, so that's why itseems to be a really important
topic for the the people thatI've interviewed and the people
that listen to the podcast. Sowhat is going on with change at
the moment in the university,the research world? Why is it?
(05:19):
Why is it such a big thing,generally, but also, why has
that pace of change seems tohave escalated recently.
Andrew Millar (05:26):
It does, and I guess it's a combination of
things. I mean, universities arestrange places in that we're
both both ancient and modern.You know, you have some that are
more ancient than others, but wealmost kind of like the ancient
part of it that, you know,that's where we've come from,
but we are supposed to be at theforefront of what we do as well.
(05:47):
You know, the researchespecially is supposed to be
pushing those boundaries. Ithink, you know, just the world
in general has got a lot morecomplex. It has got more
challenges that we are trying toovercome, and the pace of change
with some of the new technologythat's coming along is just
accelerating the whole time. Sothe ability to keep up with that
(06:10):
is something that universitiescan do in a research area. But
when it comes to the I supposethe research adjacent stuff, it
becomes a lot more problematic,because you're then having to
work with legacy of what's gonebefore. So the complexity of
what's been forced upon usinternally, and then the whole
(06:30):
external environment in terms offunding, in terms of
recruitment, in terms of, youknow, the cyber security, all
the different challenges thathave been thrown up by the
modern world means that changeis just a natural part of a
university, but something thatis complex to manage, and it's
not an easy thing to do.
Sarah McLusky (06:50):
Yeah, and so, and it does seem that, particularly
with big organizations likeuniversities that have, you
know, very fixed ways of doingthings. It almost seems to be
that there's the researchprojects and these, you know,
new and exciting things that arecoming along, but it's almost
like the the processes and theadmin and then even down to
(07:13):
things like the ways that weassess research and the ways
that we, you know, quantify andjudge research, some of that
just doesn't seem to move on atall, even though the research
and the technology, as you say,is is making incredible
discoveries and and, you know,pushing ideas forwards, but
(07:34):
without bringing the the systemsand the processes along for the
ride. If you know what I mean,
Andrew Millar (07:40):
yeah, and I guess a lot of research projects have
that luxury almost, maybe that'snot the right words, but, or
starting afresh, you know, nothaving to deal with university
systems and processes and peopleand the complexities of just a,
you know, a general cyclicalyear that we have in university
(08:00):
structures so that's where itbecomes really difficult,
because you're trying to almostget new stuff shoehorned into
old stuff. And often the oldstuff is just not up to, you
know, keeping pace with thosethings, and also the funding,
you know, the funding forchange, the funding for bringing
about those changes, is oftennot there in the same way it
(08:21):
might be for a particularresearch grant with a particular
focus
Sarah McLusky (08:25):
Yeah, and I think that's that's something we're
just talking a little bit aboutbefore we came on the call,
wasn't it? Is that when you doget funding for a research
grant, the funding is usuallypurely tied to the delivery of
that research, and there is nofunding within that to cover any
sort of adaptations to the corestructure of the university. And
(08:51):
so you've got this strangemismatch between the fact that
the research has been funded bythis grant based, this external
funding, all the things that arecoming in to make that happen,
but that the university systems,that that side of things is
(09:12):
generally all funded by studentincome, isn't it? And core
government, not that there'smuch core government funding and
things like that and that sideof things is what's funding the
basic infrastructure inuniversities, isn't it?
Andrew Millar (09:27):
Yeah, there's this strange relationship
between teaching and betweenresearch and that we often see
them as separate things within auniversity, and certainly within
our university at times, butactually intrinsically linked
from a funding point of view,and that, you know, we talked
about the full economic cost ofof research not being met by
(09:49):
some of these funders and havingto be subsidized, which is often
coming from the teaching andlearning and the surpluses that
we're generating there. But thatmeans, when there's a dip in
that side of things, the abilityto then react on other sides of
things, on the research side ofthings, just isn't there. And,
you know, you start to see thisintrinsic link. But you know,
(10:12):
there's also a kind of backwardsway as well. You know, all the
great stuff that's happeningthis research is piling back
into the teaching, which is, youknow, then something that can be
sold and can be marketed and canbe, you know, value can be added
to that as well. So, you know,the two are intrinsically
linked, as much as we like tosometimes think that, you know,
they are they are separate
Sarah McLusky (10:32):
Yeah, yeah. So certainly, a really interesting
and challenging mix of factorsaffecting universities. But
you've said there, well, we'veboth said, both of us are more
interested in that human cost ofchange. So what are some of the
things that you've seen that arereally, that's really that human
(10:53):
cost of change?
Andrew Millar (10:54):
I think universities tend to treat
change as something that justhappens, rather than it being a
process, and the kind of theunderstanding that this will be
a long term thing, it's notsomething that you switch
overnight. You know you canswitch technology on, you can
switch processes on, butactually getting an entire staff
(11:18):
body, an entire culture, reallyworking with that change is
going to be a long term process,and we don't often treat that as
an iterative, iterative process.And then the impact of culture
as well. Culture is, you know,this amazing thing that you
know, can make or breakorganizations. And we talk a lot
(11:41):
about cultures, in terms of ourvalues, in terms of, you know,
how we want to work with eachother, but when we're doing
change programs, we don't alwaysbring those things
inUniversities again, I don'tknow if you feel this, but
universities are notuniversities are run by
consensus of opinion, ratherthan from top down approaches.
(12:01):
So if you were in the privatesector, if you were an agency
land or whatever else, your CEOor whatever else would say, this
is the way we're going to go.And that's that's largely the
way that things will happenwithin universities are much
more about driving consensus,bringing people along, trying to
get people on board with change.And that's not that always, that
(12:24):
never gets the focus, funding,the attention that it perhaps
needs to have to bring thatculture, bring those people
along with you as well. Sothat's big, big issue for for
senior management, and how toactually manage those changes.
Sarah McLusky (12:39):
Yeah, and I think certainly when I've been in
situations of places likeuniversities where people are
very resistant, if there's afeeling that there's change
being kind of forced upon them,particularly if they don't
understand why it's happening.And I think that some of that is
is just very natural withinhuman beings. I think it's
(13:04):
really inbuilt in not everybody,but in most people, to to resist
change, sometimes even if theycan see it's for their own good,
but but certainly if they don'tunderstand where it's coming
from, if they don't understandwhy it's considered necessary.
Andrew Millar (13:27):
Yeah, you always have these two extremes of
people. You have people who arevery, very resistant to change
and just want to come in do thejob, and that's what they want
to do. And then you almost havethis kind of other extreme at
the other end, where people arejust wanting to change
everything, and then, you know,it's a spectrum of change that
people are going through, butmanaging that change between all
(13:50):
because you could have bothtypes within the single
department, and you will havedefinitely have both types
across the whole university.I've often likened it to, I
mean, I have two girls, andone's very outgoing, one's very
reticent, and almost you'repulling one along, you know,
trying to get them to speed up,and trying to bring them along,
and then the other one, you'rejust trying to pull back a wee
(14:12):
bit because they're just going awee bit too quickly for, you
know, me sitting in the middle,trying to fight with with two of
them. So, you know, you getthose people who are very happy
to see change, others who arevery reticent. And it's almost
that kind of change is almost anemotional thing that we have to
go through, rather than just anacceptance, you know, that kind
(14:35):
of whole bell curve of, youknow, acceptance and rejection,
and how you see that happening
Sarah McLusky (14:40):
Yeah, and I think it's definitely when you say
there is, like, an emotionalthing people have to go through.
I think so much of it, we oftenthink about change on an
organizational level, you know,bringing in something, doing
things differently, and and I'minvolved in a lot of the
research culture conversations,and a lot of it is about the
systemic stuff. You know, it'slike we need to look at, like,
(15:02):
what we measure and what we youknow, how we do things, and
that's, that's important. But atthe end of the day, if you don't
bring the individuals along withyou, then that change, you know,
very quickly you go back to theway things were before. I think
we saw that even so many peoplethought that COVID was going to
be, you know, this amazing thingthat was going to just change
(15:24):
the way we all lived, and it'ssome utopia. And then very
quickly, everybody has just goneback to doing pretty much
exactly the same as they weredoing before. Because, yeah,
unless people go on thatemotional journey then then the
change doesn't, doesn't becomepart of them. They whether it's
(15:45):
that they accept the reason forit, or whether they they see the
benefits of it. Yeah
Andrew Millar (15:51):
COVID an interesting example. Because, I
mean, there'll be differentopinions on this. But what we
saw is, you know, 23rd of March,2020, we all went home, and we
all went into lockdown, andlargely speaking, people were
accepting of that change, andpeople were happy to try and
(16:12):
accommodate it. They were happyto try and work with people.
They knew that things weren'tgoing to be perfect. They knew
that it was going to beproblems, but because we
understood that wider context,global pandemic, you know,
threat to life, all those kindof things, people were able to
accept that a bit more easily,whereas other things that are a
bit less impactful than COVIDcan be a lot more a lot more
(16:35):
problematic, because peoplearen't on board with it. They're
not understanding the backstory. They're not understanding
why the change needs to happen.They don't understand what the
benefit is to them either. Youknow, so and that's where the
barriers come up. That's wherepeople start to kind of go. I'm
not doing this because I do notfeel safe. I do not feel you've
(16:56):
got my best interests at heart,and that's where you've almost
now just added an extra barrierinto that change that could
perhaps have been mitigated abit earlier on, had that hearts
and minds piece been done a bitmore effectively.
Sarah McLusky (17:11):
I think it's interesting that you mentioned
feeling safe there as well.Because I think one thing that
is interesting about COVID wasat the time, the thing that
everybody was being asked to do,actually, was the thing that
felt safe. So go home, stay athome, you know, don't interact
with that uncertainty that wasout there in the world. Whereas
(17:31):
I think so often it's the changethat people really resist is
this change that affects thatfeeling of safety isn't it? That
they've got within themselves,whether it's the safety of their
job, the safety of their family,you know, the income that
they've got coming in, whateverit is, or just that safety in
the sense of their feeling ofconfidence to be able to do
(17:52):
their job, or to be able toparticipate, contribute, in the
in the way that they have been
Andrew Millar (17:58):
Yeah, and this is where you get this whole matrix
of different things that need tobe taken into account from, you
know, just basics like salary,basics like, you know, time,
basics like, you know, whetherI'm going to be able to be
competent to do my job or not,right up to the kind of more
complex things. Or do I actuallywant this change to happen? Do I
(18:20):
still want to be you know, do Iaccept the values? Do I accept
the direction that the company,the place is going? And do I
still want to be a part of that?And that's a decision needs to
be made on an individual basis.Sometimes, as to whether you're
going to carry on with it ornot.
Sarah McLusky (18:36):
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your career journey without amap, sometimes you need to pause
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(18:59):
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So certainly, sometimes, as yousay, when change comes along,
people feel that they have gotsome degree of control in that
situation. You know, forexample, if redundancies being
(19:22):
offered, they can decide whetherthey want to put themselves
forward, that sort of thing. Butso often in the research world
that change comes without peoplenecessarily choosing it. You
know, you get to the end of agrant, and that's it. The
money's up. You have to move on.You have to do something else.
And are there any things thatyou've seen that can help people
(19:45):
to navigate that change, thatthey that they don't want, that
they don't feel they have anycontrol over?
Andrew Millar (19:54):
Yeah, I mean, it's a difficult one. It depends
on your individual temperament,I think, as to how open how open
you are to it. Being open tochange, I think, helps you
mitigate some of the challengesof that change, that the more
you fight against change. Andnot all change is inevitable,
but you know, some of thechanges that we're talking
about, terms of funding andwhatever else is, is inevitable.
(20:16):
Being open to that change allowsyou to then take some kind of
measure of control over it aswell. And the more on board you
can be with that change, themore integrated into that change
you can be, the easier it is tothen start to control that
change and go, Well, you know,I'm completely open to this. I'm
happy to work with this. I thinkthis is going to work. I don't
(20:40):
think this is going to work.Could we suggest this? Could we
suggest that that's when itbecomes more of a conversation,
rather than a battle? And Ithink once it starts to become a
battle, you've almost lost thebattle on both sides. If it gets
to that stage, the more it canbe a conversation, the more it
can be a mutually beneficialarrangement for change, the
(21:03):
happiness that people tend tobe, but it's it's understand
getting as much information, wesometimes find that we put an
awful lot of information outabout change, and some of that
is picked up, some of that's notpicked up, and some people will
just go, I'm not interactingwith us in any shape or fashion.
(21:23):
And then once it's actuallyforced on them, and you sit down
with them, and they go, Well, doyou know I'd known this, this
and this beforehand. They go,Well, we did say this, this and
this beforehand. But you know,actually taking some
responsibility yourself forfinding out about the change is
often a good thing and actuallyhelps you. It becomes less
(21:45):
scary. You know, I think thefear of the unknown is a big
thing. You know, massive,massive thing. Some people love
that. Me as a person, a kind ofan introvert, even going into a
room that I've not been inbefore scares me at times. So
the fact that you know when achange comes along, if I don't
know anything about it, that'swhere I'm going to go. Actually,
(22:06):
I don't want to do this. Themore I know, the more I've been
led along, the more informationI've got, the the simpler it is
for me to to be on board withthat.
Sarah McLusky (22:15):
Yeah, I think I heard something recently which
was describing the fact thatthat most the root of most fear,
including fear of change, butfear of anything is around lack
of control. So fear that you're,you know, losing control, you
don't know what, what's goingon, and fear of like, scarcity.
So whether that means, you know,not having enough money to pay
your bills, or they're not beingenough jobs to jobs to go
(22:37):
around, or, you know, that sortof thing and and it coming down
to both of those things, butdefinitely the, especially with
the lack of control one theanswer to that is, is doing, you
know, being proactive, isn't it?It's thinking, What can I do?
You know, okay, there's thesethings that I can't control, but
(22:58):
what are the things that I cancontrol? Whether that's, you
know, leaning into it,understanding it, doing the
training, or trying to, youknow, do whatever it is, to
understand what the change is,or whether it's saying actually,
yeah, I'm out. I'm going to goand do something else, yeah, and
making that a choice rather thansomething that's forced upon
you. It's really powerful.
Andrew Millar (23:19):
It is. I think there's a there's a tendency for
us to think, I don't know if youfind this, but sometimes it's
the employer's responsibility togive everything to the to the
person, and actually there is aconverse responsibility as well
for us to actually go and findout these things. Because, you
know, the employers are, arepeople. At the end of the day,
(23:41):
they will make mistakes. Theywill not think of everything
that needs to be thought of. Andactually, there's probably a
whole pile of stuff that couldbe done, could be fixed
relatively easily had they justknown about it. And, you know,
just knowing about it helps themto to make it easier for
everyone. So raising theseconcerns, and, you know, inter
interacting with the changemakes a massive, massive
(24:02):
difference on both sides.
Sarah McLusky (24:04):
Yeah, yes, we've talked there a bit from
individual perspectives ofchange, but as somebody who's
led change in organizations,what sorts of things have you
found help there with navigatingchange? I mean, you've said that
there's often this tendency toput out loads of information.
But is that enough for are thereother things that help?
Andrew Millar (24:26):
Like, the information is great, but people
absorb information in differentways. So there are people who
are very much, you know, likestuff written down. They like
the full details. Other peoplelike to, you know, interact with
that in a slightly differentway, whether it's a one to one,
whether it's, you know, townhalls, whether it's just the
ability to interrogate adecision as well. So
(24:50):
communication is absolutelyfundamental. Can't underestimate
it in terms of how importantcommunication is, but it has to
be the right communication. Aswell, because almost the wrong
communication at the wrong timeis as damaging as as you know,
not actually communicating withpeople. So you know, giving
people information on a regularbasis. You know, keeping them
(25:11):
informed, keeping them abreastof progress, is absolutely
crucial to to the effectivenessof change. And then, you know,
just being visible as a leaderas well. You know, there can be
a tendency to, you know, you'reso busy, and there's lots of
meetings, you're doing a wholepile of stuff, just not giving
(25:32):
staff time to interact with you.But you know, actually being
visible within the department,within the, you know, the
building is people to see youround about, a kind of
subconscious level. It feelslike that actually, they're with
you on this, you know. They'renot remote, so they're not
making decisions where theydon't really understand what the
consequences are. Actually,they're here and present in the
(25:54):
in the here and now. They'reworking really hard to do their
bit of it, you know, but they'reabsolutely here for it. So that
kind of feeling ofapproachability, you know, being
able to go and speak to people,and I think there's a there's a
general understanding frompeople, to a greater or lesser
extent, that not every bit ofinformation can be shared all
(26:16):
the time, but you know, if atleast you can ask a question and
can get a part of an answer now,in the knowledge that's going to
come, you know, at some point inthe future, even that partial
answer tends to kind of lessenthe height, lessen the anxiety
around about that, that changeas well. So I think, from a
leader's point of view, we needto understand that change is a
(26:38):
kind of evolution, rather than arevolution. You know that
actually, small, incrementalchanges can be far more
effective than a big bangchange. And, you know, it's a
long term process. It's notsomething that we'll do a six
month project on. And we'llsuddenly have a new culture.
We'll suddenly have a new systemthat everybody is on board with
(26:59):
very, very rarely happens like,like, that's all.
Sarah McLusky (27:03):
I always say. It's about continuous
improvement, rather thannecessarily, you know, scratch
it and start again, althoughsometimes I'm very tempted to
scratch things and startagain.So, yeah, yeah. And
another thing in situations thatthat, as you say, has been
really effective, is gettingthat feeling of of everybody's
(27:24):
in it together. It's not likethe this is something that's
being done on to you by, youknow, the management. It's
something that everybody's intogether. And when I think about
things like research projectsI've worked on that have come to
just their natural end, there isthat sense of everybody being in
it together. But there is alsothat sense, because everybody's
in it together, you know, you'rehelping each other out. You
(27:45):
celebrate the what's beenachieved, and that support being
there can make a big differenceto how it feels.
Andrew Millar (27:54):
Oh, absolutely. I mean, one of the earliest so one
of my first jobs, I worked on apetrol station and had this
fantastic boss, a guy calledStuart Bell, and he was almost
at the end of his career when Iwas starting my career, and one
of the things that he justdrilled into me is that I'll not
ask you to do anything, Andrew,that I'm not willing to do
(28:15):
myself. You go, well, that'sthat's a nice statement but do
they actually live those values.Well, Stuart would be out on a
Sunday morning, at seven in themorning, scrubbing the car
washes, you know, getting allthe dirt off the off the thing
come in absolutely caked in mud.But that wasn't something that
he, you know, expected his staffto do, that he wasn't willing to
(28:36):
do himself. And and that goesright through every organization
you know. There are things thatyou know the people at the top,
managers just won't be doingbecause they don't have the
expertise or whatever else, butthe knowledge that they're with
you in this journey. You'llfollow anybody anywhere if you
feel that they are with you inthe journey, the more that it
(28:57):
feels like they're back in thebarracks you know as you're
going out to battle the lessinclined you're going to be to
follow them.
Sarah McLusky (29:06):
So as somebody, I know this is something that you
think about a lot, maybe just tofinish off for conversation,
what sorts of changes do youthink are coming down the line
in the higher educationlandscape that maybe people
haven't clocked yet.
Andrew Millar (29:24):
Oh, that's an interesting one. I think
there'll be, there'll be new newways of working. AI is the
obvious you know, big thingthat's coming just now, a lot of
eagerness to roll that out. It'sgoing to be the savior of all
mankind. It's going to help usbe mega efficient,
Sarah McLusky (29:42):
maybe not good for climate change, but anyway,
Andrew Millar (29:44):
Yeah, I'm a bit more cynical about it. You know,
yes,
having kind of used a lot of AItools, I think they will
definitely be a benefit, butthey're still in their infancy
as to how, you know, useful theyare. It's understanding where
that balance lies between thehuman and the the artificial and
where the strengths lie in termsof each of them. I think the
(30:05):
funding landscapes, especiallyin higher education, are going
to be seismic. I think, youknow, I think we're at 70% of
universities are running somekind of deficit. So that is
going to lead to reductions inresource, reductions in people,
naturally. I think there's goingto be a whole pile of stuff
where we just need to think ofdifferent ways of doing things
(30:26):
and being more effective aboutit. I think there's probably
going to need to get into therealms of shared services, or
less siloed, working morecollaborative, working across
lots of different places. Ithink from a from what a
university is, point of view,there's a fundamental question
of, why are we here asuniversities, and what is it we
(30:48):
do? I think more and more wewill have to make the case of
what is our impact on society,locally, globally, and, you
know, and whatever else. Andactually, you know, less of just
a knowledge generation place,and more of a kind of impact
(31:09):
creating place, you know. So howis this knowledge that we're,
we're gaining here, actuallymaking a fundamental difference
to to people? So right acrossthe piece that will, I think,
that will come into, you know,we already see in terms of REF,
in terms of, you know, othergrant applications, the issue of
impact and how it's measured,but on a more human and
(31:31):
fundamental level, having tomake that case to government, to
the public, just to students, toresearchers, to why you're doing
what you're doing, and how willit benefit me? I think the whole
conversation around aboutfunding, who funds it? Why
should it be funded? Is itmaking a material difference? Is
(31:51):
going to have to lead us intodifferent ways of thinking about
what we do and how we generateoutputs, how we make how we, you
know, create outputs, how weinteract with people, public
engagement, all that raft ofstuff is going to fundamentally
change to have a greater focus.I think over the next couple of
years
Sarah McLusky (32:12):
It's good to see that coming into the mainstream.
I have to say, because some ofthat I've been following for
maybe about five years now, thismovement that's called anchor
institutions, and I thinkuniversities really need to step
into that, that sense of beingwhat's called an anchor
institution within their localcommunity, whereas a lot of
universities have been seeingthemselves as sitting in the
(32:34):
global community, but actuallyforgetting, you know, the the
immediate community around them,the local businesses that they
could be supporting, the localpeople, that they're giving a
job to, everything from thecleaners up to the professors
and like you see the differencethat they make in a really
holistic sense, not just thisidea of of research for research
(32:59):
sake or knowledge creation?
Andrew Millar (33:03):
Yeah, I think so. I mean, from likes of Dundee,
one in seven of people in Dundeeare students, you know, so from
a from an impact point of view,the university is just
intrinsically linked with thecity. It's linked with the NHS.
It's linked with, you know,whole pile of services. And
also, I suppose you know thekind of follow on bit from that
(33:23):
is that the support servicesthat support us in delivering
things for the third parties,the people who supplies those
supply chains, are massive interms of and if in universities
go through those dips, that'swhen those kind of third parties
as well, will start to suffer.So we have to see ourselves as
part of a whole, and how we, youknow, benefit the whole, rather
(33:47):
than just as you know, we areglobal. We are making global
impacts, but absolutely rootedin our local environments as
well.
Sarah McLusky (33:56):
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's a that's potentially a
nice positive change to thinkabout as we end the
conversation. I'm so if peoplewant to get in touch with you,
where, whereabouts Do you hangout, or where's the best place
to find you?
Andrew Millar (34:13):
Probably on LinkedIn. I think we'll put a
link in the show notes to myLinkedIn profile. I'm always
very happy to speak to peopleabout these things. I'm always
very happy to hear otherpeople's views on the stuff that
I'm putting out, or even justthe stuff that's going around.
So if people want to contact me,I'd be very happy to speak to
them about these things.
Sarah McLusky (34:35):
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for taking the
time to come along and chat.It's been really interesting for
me, and I think that people havegot a lot out of it. Thank you.
Andrew Millar (34:43):
Thanks Sarah.
Sarah McLusky (34:48):
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent.
If you're listening in a podcastapp, please check your
subscribed and then use thelinks in the episode description
to find full show notes and tofollow the podcast on LinkedIn
or Instagram. You can also findall the links and other episodes
at www.researchadjacent.com.Research Adjacent is presented
(35:09):
and produced by Sarah McLusky,and the theme music is by Lemon
Music Studios on Pixabay. Andyou, yes you, get a big gold
star for listening right to theend. See you next time.
Being open to change, I think, helps you
mitigate some of the challengesof that change. And that's where
the barriers come up. That'swhere people start to go. I'm
not doing this because I do notfeel safe. You'll follow anybody
anywhere if you feel that theyare with you on the journey.
Sarah McLusky (00:18):
Hello there. I'm Sarah McLusky, and this is
Research Adjacent. Each episode,I talk to amazing
research-adjacent professionalsabout what they do and why it
makes a difference. Keeplistening to find out why we
think the research-adjacentspace is where the real magic
happens.
(00:40):
Hello and welcome to ResearchAdjacent. This episode is the
second in the Challenges miniseries where I'm taking a deep
dive into some of the stickysituations and mindset gremlins
that are common forresearch-adjacent professionals.
In the last episode, we focusedon imposter moments with Jenny
Brady. But today, for part two,we're going to be navigating
change with Andrew Miller as ourexpert guide. Andrew is Head of
(01:04):
Web Services at the Universityof Dundee. He's worked in higher
education for 20 years, so hasseen a lot of change in that
time, especially within aspecialism like computing.
Andrew came onto my radar thanksto previous guest, Orla Kelly,
because he often writes andspeaks about navigating change
from the perspective of anindividual, as a manager, an
(01:24):
organization, or even from theperspective of the whole higher
education sector. So if this isa topic that you are interested
in, make sure that you connectwith Andrew on LinkedIn. You'll
find a link in the show notes.
So what about today's episode?We are talking about navigating
change in both the research andhigher education worlds. We talk
(01:47):
about why change can bechallenging for both individuals
and for large, complex, ancientand modern organizations like
universities. We discuss whyhaving a sense of control is so
important, and why being open tochange can be transformational.
We also explore some of thechanges that Andrew thinks are
coming for the HE sector,including the rollout of AI and
(02:07):
universities rethinking theirpurpose. Whether you're a self
confessed change enthusiast likeme or someone who likes
everything to stay just thesame, listen on. You'll get some
valuable insights
Welcome along to the podcast.Andrew, thank you so much for
coming along for a chat todayabout navigating change in the
(02:30):
research world. Before we startour conversation, would you like
to tell us a bit about what itis that you do?
Andrew Millar (02:37):
Yes. So I'm Head of Web Services for the
University of Dundee, and thatmeans that I am responsible for,
I suppose, the webinfrastructure, web strategy,
web content, everything, webrelated, really, and kind of
more broadening out from that,the social media side of things,
and more digital landscape aswell. So everything from the
(02:59):
infrastructure right up to thecontent strategy and stuff that
appears sits within my lovelyremit. So that is me
Sarah McLusky (03:06):
Fantastic. And it's certainly a role where even
just within your own job, theremust be a lot of change. But
you've been very vocal. One ofthe reasons our paths cross is
because you do talk a lot aboutchange within the higher
education and the researchworld. So what was it that got
you interested in this topic inthe first place?
Andrew Millar (03:29):
It's because it's just happening, you know,
constantly to us, I've been inhigher education for 20 years
now, so I'm of that kind of agewhere I can look back, I can see
where things have changed, wherethings have got better, where
things have got worse, andstarting to look at the human
cost of change as well. So verymuch. I'm a tech person. I like
(03:51):
technology. I like the changethat can bring. But more and
more as we go through thesethings, it's the human cost that
interests me and how you leadteams through change that's
almost as as interesting as thetech that's, you know, making
the change possible as well. Sothat's kind of how I kind of got
into or why I'm so vocal aboutthese things as well.
Sarah McLusky (04:13):
Yeah, well, certainly the human cost of
change is the sort of thing I'mreally interested in, and it is
something. The reason I wantedto do podcast episode on this
topic is because that whenever Iam talking to whether it's
people who are working inuniversities, whether working
in, you know, industry andcollaborating with universities,
this sense of things both alwayschanging. So there's this
(04:38):
constant churn lots of people onshort term contracts, short term
research grants, things likethat. But then also the fact
that these are really bigorganizations, and that really
big organizations can reallystruggle with change so
universities and the researchworlds in a really funny little
(04:58):
kind of midpoint. Where there'salmost so much change forced
upon it, but it's notnecessarily that great at
navigating it, so that's why itseems to be a really important
topic for the the people thatI've interviewed and the people
that listen to the podcast. Sowhat is going on with change at
the moment in the university,the research world? Why is it?
(05:19):
Why is it such a big thing,generally, but also, why has
that pace of change seems tohave escalated recently.
Andrew Millar (05:26):
It does, and I guess it's a combination of
things. I mean, universities arestrange places in that we're
both both ancient and modern.You know, you have some that are
more ancient than others, but wealmost kind of like the ancient
part of it that, you know,that's where we've come from,
but we are supposed to be at theforefront of what we do as well.
(05:47):
You know, the researchespecially is supposed to be
pushing those boundaries. Ithink, you know, just the world
in general has got a lot morecomplex. It has got more
challenges that we are trying toovercome, and the pace of change
with some of the new technologythat's coming along is just
accelerating the whole time. Sothe ability to keep up with that
(06:10):
is something that universitiescan do in a research area. But
when it comes to the I supposethe research adjacent stuff, it
becomes a lot more problematic,because you're then having to
work with legacy of what's gonebefore. So the complexity of
what's been forced upon usinternally, and then the whole
(06:30):
external environment in terms offunding, in terms of
recruitment, in terms of, youknow, the cyber security, all
the different challenges thathave been thrown up by the
modern world means that changeis just a natural part of a
university, but something thatis complex to manage, and it's
not an easy thing to do.
Sarah McLusky (06:50):
Yeah, and so, and it does seem that, particularly
with big organizations likeuniversities that have, you
know, very fixed ways of doingthings. It almost seems to be
that there's the researchprojects and these, you know,
new and exciting things that arecoming along, but it's almost
like the the processes and theadmin and then even down to
(07:13):
things like the ways that weassess research and the ways
that we, you know, quantify andjudge research, some of that
just doesn't seem to move on atall, even though the research
and the technology, as you say,is is making incredible
discoveries and and, you know,pushing ideas forwards, but
(07:34):
without bringing the the systemsand the processes along for the
ride. If you know what I mean,
Andrew Millar (07:40):
yeah, and I guess a lot of research projects have
that luxury almost, maybe that'snot the right words, but, or
starting afresh, you know, nothaving to deal with university
systems and processes and peopleand the complexities of just a,
you know, a general cyclicalyear that we have in university
(08:00):
structures so that's where itbecomes really difficult,
because you're trying to almostget new stuff shoehorned into
old stuff. And often the oldstuff is just not up to, you
know, keeping pace with thosethings, and also the funding,
you know, the funding forchange, the funding for bringing
about those changes, is oftennot there in the same way it
(08:21):
might be for a particularresearch grant with a particular
focus
Sarah McLusky (08:25):
Yeah, and I think that's that's something we're
just talking a little bit aboutbefore we came on the call,
wasn't it? Is that when you doget funding for a research
grant, the funding is usuallypurely tied to the delivery of
that research, and there is nofunding within that to cover any
sort of adaptations to the corestructure of the university. And
(08:51):
so you've got this strangemismatch between the fact that
the research has been funded bythis grant based, this external
funding, all the things that arecoming in to make that happen,
but that the university systems,that that side of things is
(09:12):
generally all funded by studentincome, isn't it? And core
government, not that there'smuch core government funding and
things like that and that sideof things is what's funding the
basic infrastructure inuniversities, isn't it?
Andrew Millar (09:27):
Yeah, there's this strange relationship
between teaching and betweenresearch and that we often see
them as separate things within auniversity, and certainly within
our university at times, butactually intrinsically linked
from a funding point of view,and that, you know, we talked
about the full economic cost ofof research not being met by
(09:49):
some of these funders and havingto be subsidized, which is often
coming from the teaching andlearning and the surpluses that
we're generating there. But thatmeans, when there's a dip in
that side of things, the abilityto then react on other sides of
things, on the research side ofthings, just isn't there. And,
you know, you start to see thisintrinsic link. But you know,
(10:12):
there's also a kind of backwardsway as well. You know, all the
great stuff that's happeningthis research is piling back
into the teaching, which is, youknow, then something that can be
sold and can be marketed and canbe, you know, value can be added
to that as well. So, you know,the two are intrinsically
linked, as much as we like tosometimes think that, you know,
they are they are separate
Sarah McLusky (10:32):
Yeah, yeah. So certainly, a really interesting
and challenging mix of factorsaffecting universities. But
you've said there, well, we'veboth said, both of us are more
interested in that human cost ofchange. So what are some of the
things that you've seen that arereally, that's really that human
(10:53):
cost of change?
Andrew Millar (10:54):
I think universities tend to treat
change as something that justhappens, rather than it being a
process, and the kind of theunderstanding that this will be
a long term thing, it's notsomething that you switch
overnight. You know you canswitch technology on, you can
switch processes on, butactually getting an entire staff
(11:18):
body, an entire culture, reallyworking with that change is
going to be a long term process,and we don't often treat that as
an iterative, iterative process.And then the impact of culture
as well. Culture is, you know,this amazing thing that you
know, can make or breakorganizations. And we talk a lot
(11:41):
about cultures, in terms of ourvalues, in terms of, you know,
how we want to work with eachother, but when we're doing
change programs, we don't alwaysbring those things
inUniversities again, I don'tknow if you feel this, but
universities are notuniversities are run by
consensus of opinion, ratherthan from top down approaches.
(12:01):
So if you were in the privatesector, if you were an agency
land or whatever else, your CEOor whatever else would say, this
is the way we're going to go.And that's that's largely the
way that things will happenwithin universities are much
more about driving consensus,bringing people along, trying to
get people on board with change.And that's not that always, that
(12:24):
never gets the focus, funding,the attention that it perhaps
needs to have to bring thatculture, bring those people
along with you as well. Sothat's big, big issue for for
senior management, and how toactually manage those changes.
Sarah McLusky (12:39):
Yeah, and I think certainly when I've been in
situations of places likeuniversities where people are
very resistant, if there's afeeling that there's change
being kind of forced upon them,particularly if they don't
understand why it's happening.And I think that some of that is
is just very natural withinhuman beings. I think it's
(13:04):
really inbuilt in not everybody,but in most people, to to resist
change, sometimes even if theycan see it's for their own good,
but but certainly if they don'tunderstand where it's coming
from, if they don't understandwhy it's considered necessary.
Andrew Millar (13:27):
Yeah, you always have these two extremes of
people. You have people who arevery, very resistant to change
and just want to come in do thejob, and that's what they want
to do. And then you almost havethis kind of other extreme at
the other end, where people arejust wanting to change
everything, and then, you know,it's a spectrum of change that
people are going through, butmanaging that change between all
(13:50):
because you could have bothtypes within the single
department, and you will havedefinitely have both types
across the whole university.I've often likened it to, I
mean, I have two girls, andone's very outgoing, one's very
reticent, and almost you'repulling one along, you know,
trying to get them to speed up,and trying to bring them along,
and then the other one, you'rejust trying to pull back a wee
(14:12):
bit because they're just going awee bit too quickly for, you
know, me sitting in the middle,trying to fight with with two of
them. So, you know, you getthose people who are very happy
to see change, others who arevery reticent. And it's almost
that kind of change is almost anemotional thing that we have to
go through, rather than just anacceptance, you know, that kind
(14:35):
of whole bell curve of, youknow, acceptance and rejection,
and how you see that happening
Sarah McLusky (14:40):
Yeah, and I think it's definitely when you say
there is, like, an emotionalthing people have to go through.
I think so much of it, we oftenthink about change on an
organizational level, you know,bringing in something, doing
things differently, and and I'minvolved in a lot of the
research culture conversations,and a lot of it is about the
systemic stuff. You know, it'slike we need to look at, like,
(15:02):
what we measure and what we youknow, how we do things, and
that's, that's important. But atthe end of the day, if you don't
bring the individuals along withyou, then that change, you know,
very quickly you go back to theway things were before. I think
we saw that even so many peoplethought that COVID was going to
be, you know, this amazing thingthat was going to just change
(15:24):
the way we all lived, and it'ssome utopia. And then very
quickly, everybody has just goneback to doing pretty much
exactly the same as they weredoing before. Because, yeah,
unless people go on thatemotional journey then then the
change doesn't, doesn't becomepart of them. They whether it's
(15:45):
that they accept the reason forit, or whether they they see the
benefits of it. Yeah
Andrew Millar (15:51):
COVID an interesting example. Because, I
mean, there'll be differentopinions on this. But what we
saw is, you know, 23rd of March,2020, we all went home, and we
all went into lockdown, andlargely speaking, people were
accepting of that change, andpeople were happy to try and
(16:12):
accommodate it. They were happyto try and work with people.
They knew that things weren'tgoing to be perfect. They knew
that it was going to beproblems, but because we
understood that wider context,global pandemic, you know,
threat to life, all those kindof things, people were able to
accept that a bit more easily,whereas other things that are a
bit less impactful than COVIDcan be a lot more a lot more
(16:35):
problematic, because peoplearen't on board with it. They're
not understanding the backstory. They're not understanding
why the change needs to happen.They don't understand what the
benefit is to them either. Youknow, so and that's where the
barriers come up. That's wherepeople start to kind of go. I'm
not doing this because I do notfeel safe. I do not feel you've
(16:56):
got my best interests at heart,and that's where you've almost
now just added an extra barrierinto that change that could
perhaps have been mitigated abit earlier on, had that hearts
and minds piece been done a bitmore effectively.
Sarah McLusky (17:11):
I think it's interesting that you mentioned
feeling safe there as well.Because I think one thing that
is interesting about COVID wasat the time, the thing that
everybody was being asked to do,actually, was the thing that
felt safe. So go home, stay athome, you know, don't interact
with that uncertainty that wasout there in the world. Whereas
(17:31):
I think so often it's the changethat people really resist is
this change that affects thatfeeling of safety isn't it? That
they've got within themselves,whether it's the safety of their
job, the safety of their family,you know, the income that
they've got coming in, whateverit is, or just that safety in
the sense of their feeling ofconfidence to be able to do
(17:52):
their job, or to be able toparticipate, contribute, in the
in the way that they have been
Andrew Millar (17:58):
Yeah, and this is where you get this whole matrix
of different things that need tobe taken into account from, you
know, just basics like salary,basics like, you know, time,
basics like, you know, whetherI'm going to be able to be
competent to do my job or not,right up to the kind of more
complex things. Or do I actuallywant this change to happen? Do I
(18:20):
still want to be you know, do Iaccept the values? Do I accept
the direction that the company,the place is going? And do I
still want to be a part of that?And that's a decision needs to
be made on an individual basis.Sometimes, as to whether you're
going to carry on with it ornot.
Sarah McLusky (18:36):
Do you ever feel like you're stumbling around in
your career journey without amap, sometimes you need to pause
check where you are andrecalibrate your Career Compass.
To help you do that, I have anew downloadable worksheet which
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(18:59):
download the worksheet for freeat researchadjacent.com/compass,
or use the link in the shownotes. That's
researchadjacent.com/compass.
So certainly, sometimes, as yousay, when change comes along,
people feel that they have gotsome degree of control in that
situation. You know, forexample, if redundancies being
(19:22):
offered, they can decide whetherthey want to put themselves
forward, that sort of thing. Butso often in the research world
that change comes without peoplenecessarily choosing it. You
know, you get to the end of agrant, and that's it. The
money's up. You have to move on.You have to do something else.
And are there any things thatyou've seen that can help people
(19:45):
to navigate that change, thatthey that they don't want, that
they don't feel they have anycontrol over?
Andrew Millar (19:54):
Yeah, I mean, it's a difficult one. It depends
on your individual temperament,I think, as to how open how open
you are to it. Being open tochange, I think, helps you
mitigate some of the challengesof that change, that the more
you fight against change. Andnot all change is inevitable,
but you know, some of thechanges that we're talking
about, terms of funding andwhatever else is, is inevitable.
(20:16):
Being open to that change allowsyou to then take some kind of
measure of control over it aswell. And the more on board you
can be with that change, themore integrated into that change
you can be, the easier it is tothen start to control that
change and go, Well, you know,I'm completely open to this. I'm
happy to work with this. I thinkthis is going to work. I don't
(20:40):
think this is going to work.Could we suggest this? Could we
suggest that that's when itbecomes more of a conversation,
rather than a battle? And Ithink once it starts to become a
battle, you've almost lost thebattle on both sides. If it gets
to that stage, the more it canbe a conversation, the more it
can be a mutually beneficialarrangement for change, the
(21:03):
happiness that people tend tobe, but it's it's understand
getting as much information, wesometimes find that we put an
awful lot of information outabout change, and some of that
is picked up, some of that's notpicked up, and some people will
just go, I'm not interactingwith us in any shape or fashion.
(21:23):
And then once it's actuallyforced on them, and you sit down
with them, and they go, Well, doyou know I'd known this, this
and this beforehand. They go,Well, we did say this, this and
this beforehand. But you know,actually taking some
responsibility yourself forfinding out about the change is
often a good thing and actuallyhelps you. It becomes less
(21:45):
scary. You know, I think thefear of the unknown is a big
thing. You know, massive,massive thing. Some people love
that. Me as a person, a kind ofan introvert, even going into a
room that I've not been inbefore scares me at times. So
the fact that you know when achange comes along, if I don't
know anything about it, that'swhere I'm going to go. Actually,
(22:06):
I don't want to do this. Themore I know, the more I've been
led along, the more informationI've got, the the simpler it is
for me to to be on board withthat.
Sarah McLusky (22:15):
Yeah, I think I heard something recently which
was describing the fact thatthat most the root of most fear,
including fear of change, butfear of anything is around lack
of control. So fear that you're,you know, losing control, you
don't know what, what's goingon, and fear of like, scarcity.
So whether that means, you know,not having enough money to pay
your bills, or they're not beingenough jobs to jobs to go
(22:37):
around, or, you know, that sortof thing and and it coming down
to both of those things, butdefinitely the, especially with
the lack of control one theanswer to that is, is doing, you
know, being proactive, isn't it?It's thinking, What can I do?
You know, okay, there's thesethings that I can't control, but
(22:58):
what are the things that I cancontrol? Whether that's, you
know, leaning into it,understanding it, doing the
training, or trying to, youknow, do whatever it is, to
understand what the change is,or whether it's saying actually,
yeah, I'm out. I'm going to goand do something else, yeah, and
making that a choice rather thansomething that's forced upon
you. It's really powerful.
Andrew Millar (23:19):
It is. I think there's a there's a tendency for
us to think, I don't know if youfind this, but sometimes it's
the employer's responsibility togive everything to the to the
person, and actually there is aconverse responsibility as well
for us to actually go and findout these things. Because, you
know, the employers are, arepeople. At the end of the day,
(23:41):
they will make mistakes. Theywill not think of everything
that needs to be thought of. Andactually, there's probably a
whole pile of stuff that couldbe done, could be fixed
relatively easily had they justknown about it. And, you know,
just knowing about it helps themto to make it easier for
everyone. So raising theseconcerns, and, you know, inter
interacting with the changemakes a massive, massive
(24:02):
difference on both sides.
Sarah McLusky (24:04):
Yeah, yes, we've talked there a bit from
individual perspectives ofchange, but as somebody who's
led change in organizations,what sorts of things have you
found help there with navigatingchange? I mean, you've said that
there's often this tendency toput out loads of information.
But is that enough for are thereother things that help?
Andrew Millar (24:26):
Like, the information is great, but people
absorb information in differentways. So there are people who
are very much, you know, likestuff written down. They like
the full details. Other peoplelike to, you know, interact with
that in a slightly differentway, whether it's a one to one,
whether it's, you know, townhalls, whether it's just the
ability to interrogate adecision as well. So
(24:50):
communication is absolutelyfundamental. Can't underestimate
it in terms of how importantcommunication is, but it has to
be the right communication. Aswell, because almost the wrong
communication at the wrong timeis as damaging as as you know,
not actually communicating withpeople. So you know, giving
people information on a regularbasis. You know, keeping them
(25:11):
informed, keeping them abreastof progress, is absolutely
crucial to to the effectivenessof change. And then, you know,
just being visible as a leaderas well. You know, there can be
a tendency to, you know, you'reso busy, and there's lots of
meetings, you're doing a wholepile of stuff, just not giving
(25:32):
staff time to interact with you.But you know, actually being
visible within the department,within the, you know, the
building is people to see youround about, a kind of
subconscious level. It feelslike that actually, they're with
you on this, you know. They'renot remote, so they're not
making decisions where theydon't really understand what the
consequences are. Actually,they're here and present in the
(25:54):
in the here and now. They'reworking really hard to do their
bit of it, you know, but they'reabsolutely here for it. So that
kind of feeling ofapproachability, you know, being
able to go and speak to people,and I think there's a there's a
general understanding frompeople, to a greater or lesser
extent, that not every bit ofinformation can be shared all
(26:16):
the time, but you know, if atleast you can ask a question and
can get a part of an answer now,in the knowledge that's going to
come, you know, at some point inthe future, even that partial
answer tends to kind of lessenthe height, lessen the anxiety
around about that, that changeas well. So I think, from a
leader's point of view, we needto understand that change is a
(26:38):
kind of evolution, rather than arevolution. You know that
actually, small, incrementalchanges can be far more
effective than a big bangchange. And, you know, it's a
long term process. It's notsomething that we'll do a six
month project on. And we'llsuddenly have a new culture.
We'll suddenly have a new systemthat everybody is on board with
(26:59):
very, very rarely happens like,like, that's all.
Sarah McLusky (27:03):
I always say. It's about continuous
improvement, rather thannecessarily, you know, scratch
it and start again, althoughsometimes I'm very tempted to
scratch things and startagain.So, yeah, yeah. And
another thing in situations thatthat, as you say, has been
really effective, is gettingthat feeling of of everybody's
(27:24):
in it together. It's not likethe this is something that's
being done on to you by, youknow, the management. It's
something that everybody's intogether. And when I think about
things like research projectsI've worked on that have come to
just their natural end, there isthat sense of everybody being in
it together. But there is alsothat sense, because everybody's
in it together, you know, you'rehelping each other out. You
(27:45):
celebrate the what's beenachieved, and that support being
there can make a big differenceto how it feels.
Andrew Millar (27:54):
Oh, absolutely. I mean, one of the earliest so one
of my first jobs, I worked on apetrol station and had this
fantastic boss, a guy calledStuart Bell, and he was almost
at the end of his career when Iwas starting my career, and one
of the things that he justdrilled into me is that I'll not
ask you to do anything, Andrew,that I'm not willing to do
(28:15):
myself. You go, well, that'sthat's a nice statement but do
they actually live those values.Well, Stuart would be out on a
Sunday morning, at seven in themorning, scrubbing the car
washes, you know, getting allthe dirt off the off the thing
come in absolutely caked in mud.But that wasn't something that
he, you know, expected his staffto do, that he wasn't willing to
(28:36):
do himself. And and that goesright through every organization
you know. There are things thatyou know the people at the top,
managers just won't be doingbecause they don't have the
expertise or whatever else, butthe knowledge that they're with
you in this journey. You'llfollow anybody anywhere if you
feel that they are with you inthe journey, the more that it
(28:57):
feels like they're back in thebarracks you know as you're
going out to battle the lessinclined you're going to be to
follow them.
Sarah McLusky (29:06):
So as somebody, I know this is something that you
think about a lot, maybe just tofinish off for conversation,
what sorts of changes do youthink are coming down the line
in the higher educationlandscape that maybe people
haven't clocked yet.
Andrew Millar (29:24):
Oh, that's an interesting one. I think
there'll be, there'll be new newways of working. AI is the
obvious you know, big thingthat's coming just now, a lot of
eagerness to roll that out. It'sgoing to be the savior of all
mankind. It's going to help usbe mega efficient,
Sarah McLusky (29:42):
maybe not good for climate change, but anyway,
Andrew Millar (29:44):
Yeah, I'm a bit more cynical about it. You know,
yes,
having kind of used a lot of AItools, I think they will
definitely be a benefit, butthey're still in their infancy
as to how, you know, useful theyare. It's understanding where
that balance lies between thehuman and the the artificial and
where the strengths lie in termsof each of them. I think the
(30:05):
funding landscapes, especiallyin higher education, are going
to be seismic. I think, youknow, I think we're at 70% of
universities are running somekind of deficit. So that is
going to lead to reductions inresource, reductions in people,
naturally. I think there's goingto be a whole pile of stuff
where we just need to think ofdifferent ways of doing things
(30:26):
and being more effective aboutit. I think there's probably
going to need to get into therealms of shared services, or
less siloed, working morecollaborative, working across
lots of different places. Ithink from a from what a
university is, point of view,there's a fundamental question
of, why are we here asuniversities, and what is it we
(30:48):
do? I think more and more wewill have to make the case of
what is our impact on society,locally, globally, and, you
know, and whatever else. Andactually, you know, less of just
a knowledge generation place,and more of a kind of impact
(31:09):
creating place, you know. So howis this knowledge that we're,
we're gaining here, actuallymaking a fundamental difference
to to people? So right acrossthe piece that will, I think,
that will come into, you know,we already see in terms of REF,
in terms of, you know, othergrant applications, the issue of
impact and how it's measured,but on a more human and
(31:31):
fundamental level, having tomake that case to government, to
the public, just to students, toresearchers, to why you're doing
what you're doing, and how willit benefit me? I think the whole
conversation around aboutfunding, who funds it? Why
should it be funded? Is itmaking a material difference? Is
(31:51):
going to have to lead us intodifferent ways of thinking about
what we do and how we generateoutputs, how we make how we, you
know, create outputs, how weinteract with people, public
engagement, all that raft ofstuff is going to fundamentally
change to have a greater focus.I think over the next couple of
years
Sarah McLusky (32:12):
It's good to see that coming into the mainstream.
I have to say, because some ofthat I've been following for
maybe about five years now, thismovement that's called anchor
institutions, and I thinkuniversities really need to step
into that, that sense of beingwhat's called an anchor
institution within their localcommunity, whereas a lot of
universities have been seeingthemselves as sitting in the
(32:34):
global community, but actuallyforgetting, you know, the the
immediate community around them,the local businesses that they
could be supporting, the localpeople, that they're giving a
job to, everything from thecleaners up to the professors
and like you see the differencethat they make in a really
holistic sense, not just thisidea of of research for research
(32:59):
sake or knowledge creation?
Andrew Millar (33:03):
Yeah, I think so. I mean, from likes of Dundee,
one in seven of people in Dundeeare students, you know, so from
a from an impact point of view,the university is just
intrinsically linked with thecity. It's linked with the NHS.
It's linked with, you know,whole pile of services. And
also, I suppose you know thekind of follow on bit from that
(33:23):
is that the support servicesthat support us in delivering
things for the third parties,the people who supplies those
supply chains, are massive interms of and if in universities
go through those dips, that'swhen those kind of third parties
as well, will start to suffer.So we have to see ourselves as
part of a whole, and how we, youknow, benefit the whole, rather
(33:47):
than just as you know, we areglobal. We are making global
impacts, but absolutely rootedin our local environments as
well.
Sarah McLusky (33:56):
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's a that's potentially a
nice positive change to thinkabout as we end the
conversation. I'm so if peoplewant to get in touch with you,
where, whereabouts Do you hangout, or where's the best place
to find you?
Andrew Millar (34:13):
Probably on LinkedIn. I think we'll put a
link in the show notes to myLinkedIn profile. I'm always
very happy to speak to peopleabout these things. I'm always
very happy to hear otherpeople's views on the stuff that
I'm putting out, or even justthe stuff that's going around.
So if people want to contact me,I'd be very happy to speak to
them about these things.
Sarah McLusky (34:35):
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for taking the
time to come along and chat.It's been really interesting for
me, and I think that people havegot a lot out of it. Thank you.
Andrew Millar (34:43):
Thanks Sarah.
Sarah McLusky (34:48):
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent.
If you're listening in a podcastapp, please check your
subscribed and then use thelinks in the episode description
to find full show notes and tofollow the podcast on LinkedIn
or Instagram. You can also findall the links and other episodes
at www.researchadjacent.com.Research Adjacent is presented
(35:09):
and produced by Sarah McLusky,and the theme music is by Lemon
Music Studios on Pixabay. Andyou, yes you, get a big gold
star for listening right to theend. See you next time.
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