January 14, 2025 • 38 mins
Rachel is the author of Surviving and Thriving in Higher Education Professional Services, founder of The Bold Collective, and Senior Admissions Manager at Anglia Ruskin University.
Sarah and Rachel talk about
- Being a positive disruptor in higher education
- Why HE professional roles are invisible by design
- The disparities between professional and academic contracts
- Her wish for HE professionals to speak up and speak out
Find out more
- Read the show notes and transcript on the podcast website
- Connect with Rachel on LinkedIn or via her website
- Read Rachel's book Surviving and Thriving in Higher Education Professional Services
- Join one of Rachel's monthly workshops
About Research Adjacent
- Fill out the research-adjacent careers quiz
- Sign up to the Research Adjacent newsletter
- Follow Research Adjacent on
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rachel Reeds (00:00):
Our roles are very much designed to be invisible.
If we do a good job inprofessional roles, no one sees
the work. If you do a smallerror, it becomes a giant drama.
You literally are invisible.Because since 2019 it's not been
mandatory to return the numbersof people on non-academic
contracts to the HESA HigherEducation Statistics Agency,
(00:23):
which is the datacapturemechanism for higher education.
Professional services quietlyamongst ourselves are
frustrated, but don't alwaysspeak up. And my call to action
at the end of the book is verymuch a speak up, speak out,
because we don't do it enough.
Sarah McLusky (00:41):
Hello there. I'm Sarah McLusky, and this is
Research Adjacent. Each episode,I talk to amazing research
adjacent professionals aboutwhat they do and why it makes a
difference. Keep listening tofind out why we think the
research adjacent space is wherethe real magic happens.
(01:03):
Hello and welcome to episode 60of Research Adjacent. Today my
guest is Rachel Reeds. Rachel isslightly different to my usual
guest, because although she hasbeen research-adjacent in the
past, strictly speaking, she'snot research-adjacent now. But
what Rachel does know a lotabout are the challenges facing
professionals, includingresearch-adjacent ones, working
(01:23):
in higher education. Describingherself as a positive disruptor,
Rachel has recently published abook called Surviving and
Thriving in Higher EducationProfessional Services. The book
draws both on her own career,working mainly in university
admissions, and interviews withother HE professionals in a wide
variety of roles. In ourconversation, we talk a lot
(01:45):
about the disparities betweenacademic and professional
contracts, why professionalroles are invisible by design,
and why she wants to embolden usall to speak out more. We also
talk about why Rachel is drawntowards work which supports the
underdog and works to change thesystem from within. As well as
the book, Rachel is developing arange of support for higher
(02:06):
education professionals,including free monthly workshops
if you're listening to thisepisode, when it comes out, the
next workshop is going to be onthis Friday, which is the 17th
of January, 2025 so check thelink in the show notes for
details, and even if you'vemissed that one, as I say, she's
doing the monthly so hopefullythere will be another one coming
up very soon. Before we get onto Rachel's story I want to
(02:27):
remind you to sign up for theResearch Adjacent newsletter.
Every fortnight, I sendsubscribers my top takeaways
from the most recent podcastepisode. They are insights that
you won't find anywhere else. Soif you want to know my thoughts
about this episode, then makesure that you're subscribed by
Monday the 20th of January. Ifyou're listening in a podcast
app, you'll find the link in theshow notes. And if you're
(02:48):
listening on the website, thenscroll down to the bottom of the
web page for the sign up form.But for now, let's get back to
the episode. Listen on to hearRachel's story.
Welcome along to the podcast,Rachel, thank you so much for
joining us. I wonder if youcould tell our listeners a
little bit about what it is thatyou do. Well,
Rachel Reeds (03:09):
Thanks for having me. So I have been surviving and
thriving in higher educationprofessional services since 2011
and I came out of university anddecided I want to work in the
public sector. That was about asdeep as my thinking got. So I
started working in localgovernment, and the politics was
(03:29):
a bit too much for me. After awhile, my politics did not align
with the political party thatwas in, that dominated in this
rural district council. Sothat's when I moved into higher
education, and I have spentwonderful number of years now
moving across different elementsof the student journey, quality
assurance. I've worked inresearch administration, taught
course administration, and thenlaterally in admissions. And
(03:53):
that journey has taught me a lotabout some of the challenges of
working in higher education as aprofessional and some of the
disparities between academicsand professionals, which led me
in my frustration about the lackof development opportunities and
training and empowerment ofprofessional staff, who can feel
very marginalized and quiet whenour roles are very much designed
(04:17):
to be invisible. If we do a goodjob in professional roles, no,
no-one sees the work. If you doa small error, it becomes a
giant drama. So that led me towrite my book, which is also
called Surviving and Thriving inHigher Education Professional
Services, which came out thisweek.
Sarah McLusky (04:33):
Yeah it's fantastic. It's a really
exciting week to have you on thepodcast, although, by the time
this goes out, it will be, youknow, slightly
slightly in the past, but but still, people can
Rachel Reeds (04:40):
I realized that
still go and find the book andread it. And certainly it is, it
is the book, hearing about thebook that that led me to you. So
you're not a typical guest wewould have on Research Adjacent
in the sense that at the moment,although you have previously
worked alongside researchstudents, you don't currently
(05:03):
work in a research-adjacentrole, but but certainly very
familiar with this whole highereducation professional services
landscape, having moved aroundsome different roles there. So
you mentioned there briefly someof the different roles that
you've had. Maybe you could tellus a little bit more about what
you do now and what some of theother things that you've done
(05:24):
Of course. So currently, I work in admissions.
Sarah McLusky (05:24):
Yeah and they do feel like chasms, yes.
over your career
I lead a home admissionsfunction. It's not really home
admissions - it's everyone whodoesn't need a visa - admissions
department. So CPD, degree,apprenticeships, further
education, undergraduate taught,post graduate taught, I don't
currently have researchadmissions because that's such a
(05:44):
specialist area that usuallysits within the research
graduate school or somewheresimilar. I like working in
admissions most particularlybecause you are at the start of
the student journey. You are thegatekeepers and also the
facilitators of bringing peopleinto higher education and
opening up opportunities. AndI've always worked in new
(06:05):
universities, post-92universities as we call them. So
for me, that's a very importantpart of my professional
identity, is that I work ininstitutions that have central
to their ethos wideningparticipation and broadening
access to higher education. Sothere's something very powerful
to me about making sure that I'mpart of the mechanisms and the
(06:26):
processes and the environmentthat can enable people who
probably spent a lot of theirlife thinking that university
wasn't for them or that theycouldn't necessarily achieve if
they were in that space, that itwouldn't be suited to them
culturally. So being in aposition to break some of those
barriers, for me is verypowerful place to be. I enjoy
(06:48):
all different parts of workingon the student journey, but
there is something very directlyimpactful about the work that
you do in admissions where youcan see that one conversation
can absolutely adjust thetrajectory of somebody's life,
someone who thought there was abarrier that you can then help
them dismantle is, yeah, it'sreally powerful. But I started
(07:10):
in quality assurance with thestructures of course approvals
and and the academic side ofthings. So having experience in
course approvals and coursestructures, in a business
school, there's lots ofacademics who are very good at
the theory and not so good atthe accounting. Academics never
could make their credit add upto 100, which was a bit
(07:31):
frustrating, and going from thatto then taught course
administration. So the middle ofthe journey means that I come at
all of the work I do in highereducation in a more holistic
way, thinking about how thedifferent bits fit together.
Particularly when I worked inthe research graduate school,
that was enlightening, becauseit's such a transitional space
(07:53):
between academic and theprofessional, and you have to
float across it. It's, you know,that some of the Celia
Whitchurch's concepts aboutthird space, this space between
and among and in both spaces atonce simultaneously, which I
really felt when I worked inthat space. But I also still
think it, I think it permitpermeates higher education
(08:14):
altogether, you, you know, andthat those who work in the
research space have totransition across those
boundaries and across those chasms.
Sometimes, depending on thesituation that you're in
Rachel Reeds (08:30):
They do, because for all that we talk about,
breaking down barriers and thirdspace working and transitions
between spaces, ultimately,there is an absolute binary in
higher education and in theacademic world that says you are
either an academic or you arenot an academic. And that's
absolutely enshrined in thecontractual differences. And I
don't know that in any otherindustry or space, do you have
(08:53):
such a binary contrast? Mostcontracts in the in the private
sector space are focused around,you know, task, output,
responsibilities, expectationsand role, whereas you are either
in the teaching, learning,research box or you're not. And
it's very strange to work in aspace, and I imagine you
probably have this in the healthservice too, where you're
(09:14):
define, defined by what you arenot, so you're non-academic, or
you're non-clinical, or anythinglike that. So and it's when
you're already defined by anegative and by a by exception
or by not being part ofsomething that's really quite a
negative or outside space tocome from. So it doesn't really
empower people in that space toto speak up and speak with
(09:34):
confidence. And then there'sthat primacy that comes from
that academic space and thefreedoms they have enshrined in
their contracts. Academicfreedom is enshrined in a
contract, whereas myprofessional contract says I
need to please keep quiet andcarry on. Thank you. No opinions
required.
Sarah McLusky (09:52):
There's definitely things there I want
to pick up on. So just that,well, let's, let's just go with
that first one about some of thedifferences in the contracts
between, because that'ssomething that you talk a bit
about in your book, thedifferences between. It's, it's
everything from the expectationsto the actual, you know, terms
(10:15):
and conditions of employment.Tell us a bit more about some of
those disparities. For those whoare not aware.
Rachel Reeds (10:22):
The fundamental distinction is around this, what
starts with this concept ofacademic freedom. So in a in an
academic, in a teaching,learning or pure research
contract for an academic role,there is an enshrined protection
for of freedom of speech, whichgoes beyond the traditional
concepts of freedom of speechand into the realm of academic
(10:43):
freedom, where they are in aspace where they are encouraged
to and empowered to challenge,and they can speak to both
challenge in terms of theirsubject and their particular
area of research, but also thinksome of those institutional
structures within which they'reoperating, they can speak more
comfortably. They have anenshrined expectation that they
will enter into contract withother organizations, so they
(11:06):
will be an external examiner,for example, at another
institution, or they will do aconsultancy project, or they
will be part of a researchproject. And that's encouraged
actively and seen as a realstrength from their work, and it
really betters their work to bepart of those other things, and
there is very minimalunderstanding, or total lack of
reference, to any kind ofpotential commercial conflict of
(11:28):
interest that might bring. Sothere'll be, there'll be
consideration of the ethicalimplications and those kinds of
conflicts of interest. But thereis no concern that an academic
might go and tell someoneanother institution about I
don't know our like offer-makinga strategy or something, but for
professional staff, we arecontractually tied to that one
(11:49):
employer. Our contracts usuallysay that we're not allowed to
enter into contract with anyoneelse. So I was in breach of my
contract by entering intocontract with Routledge to
publish my book. But, you know,that's a very small example of
it, but that's the that is,technically what happened. And
also, there is no expectation orno space for any teaching,
(12:11):
learning or research work on aprofessional services contract,
which is ridiculous when youconsider that an academic
librarian is on a professionalcontract, and they are quite
actively straddling those twospaces. Or when you consider
someone who might teach academicskills, they're not an academic,
because an academic is a veryconceptual space to be in,
(12:33):
because it is, it's aboutteaching and learning, but it's
not just teaching and learning.It's a specific kind of teaching
and learning and a specificframework around which, within
which teaching and learningshould be done that's different
from academic skills or the worklibrarians in particular do, or
researcher development trainingthat can often can be done by
(12:56):
academic staff, but it also canbe done by professional staff,
and yet it's sits directlywithin, you know, one space.
Sarah McLusky (13:05):
Yeah it starts to fall apart. There's so many
roles. As you say, researchlibrarians being one of them. I
used to be in a fairly strategicrole in a research institute as
a manager, helping to direct theresearch and make decisions
about what funding applicationswere put in. So again, it's that
(13:26):
idea of of falling through thecracks between what's considered
professional services and what'sconsidered academia, and the
more you pick at it, the less itmakes sense.
Rachel Reeds (13:38):
Yeah, absolutely. And I have colleagues. There's a
colleague represented in thebook, one of the 11
contributors, who shared theirstories and their journeys
through higher education with mefor the book, Dr Joanne
Caldwell, who has published workaround professional services
identity. That's what she didher doctorate focus on and she
grapples, and she talks openlyabout grappling with people
(14:00):
constantly asking her when she'sgoing to transition to the
academic space, because it'sseen as an elevated space that,
of course, she must want to moveinto, which she doesn't. But
simultaneously, she works in ain a in a business school that
are willing to support herresearch interests, but
contractually can't give hertime to do that, because there
is no space in a professionalcontract for research because
(14:24):
it's not seen as something thatprofessional staff would do. And
yet, you have people working inpartnership, academic staff and
professional staff. And if wewant to engage in research or
write, like I did all of my bookon my own time, that's what we
have to do. The MA educationcourse leader might say, I'd
(14:44):
really like to hear from seniorprofessional staff for helping,
you know, do a webinar or aseminar, sorry, for students on
MA education practice. We can doit on our own time.
Sarah McLusky (14:57):
Yeah
Rachel Reeds (14:58):
We might get a release from our time. to do it.
But we also, if you were a staffmember that maybe wasn't earning
a salary at a lecturer level,you've got, they can't pay you
for the work at that level. Sothere's a, I don't know, lack of
recognition of of that knowledgeas well.
Sarah McLusky (15:14):
Yeah. And also it's, it's sometimes I frustrate
myself because I'm like,sometimes we don't necessarily
have to play by the same rules.But if you look at the academic
model in the sense of how youadvance subject area, is that
you do research on it, and youpublish on that research, and
there are aspects of the workthat is classed as professional
(15:35):
services. So for example, someof the ones I think of
particularly, are things likepublic engagement and researcher
development, where people arebeing encouraged to do research
and publish on that topic, youknow, on do research, on public
engagement and what's bestpractice, and talking about
that, but still being consideredprofessional services. And and
(15:59):
it's this, it's it's like a bindthat that just stifles some of
that progress.
Rachel Reeds (16:08):
It stifles progress innovation, and is
inherently discomforting to beworking in a teaching, learning
and research institution, andthat be for the students, but
not for us. Yeah. And accessingthat is quite challenging. But
then on the flip side, it mustbe very, very frustrating
working in a higher educationsetting, working in something
(16:29):
like marketing or for example,and not being able to influence
or contribute to theinstitutional marketing
strategies and plans andsuccess. So there is a weird
disconnect. Yeah, it's quite anuncomfortable space to be in.
And just, you know, bypublishing this book from for
(16:51):
me, there are people that are, Imean, a lot of professional
services community are like, Ah,this is amazing. We are we feel
unheard, we feel unseen. Andthey but they haven't been able
to rationalize or understandnecessarily why they feel that
way. So it's giving a framework,but also giving them the
information data that backs itup. So when I explain to
(17:12):
professional staff that youliterally are invisible, because
since 2019 it's not beenmandatory to return the numbers
of people on non-academiccontracts to the HESA Higher
Education Statistics Agency,which is the, the data capture
mechanism for higher education.So you literally don't exist,
(17:33):
because if you're not counted,you don't feature in the
research. And so when you seesomething like Advance HE last
week or so published some workaround progression. I think it
was about the gender pay gap andthinking about women progressing
in higher education. And theyunfortunately fell into that
trap of talking about the datasays that in higher education.
(17:53):
And I had to say, I went back tothem and said, I think you've
missed the word academic out afew times here, because you
can't make thesegeneralizations, because some
institutions do return data ontheir people who aren't on
academic contracts, but they'regoing to distort the picture,
because unfortunately the 97 orso institutions that don't
bother you know, what does thatsay about them as an
institution, that they're notdoing it and are the ones that
(18:16):
contribute it are? They'reprobably just carrying on with
what they did before, and it'ssort of straightforward to do
so, but when you're not in thedata, you literally don't exist
in the research. Then how canpeople do research and analysis
when there is no data about thethe other half?
Sarah McLusky (18:31):
And that's an astonishing statistic. I
remember seeing you postingabout it on on LinkedIn a couple
of months ago. I think it wasand I didn't quite believe it,
and I went away and checked.
Rachel Reeds (18:42):
You have to check
Sarah McLusky (18:43):
because I didn't quite believe it, and it's
absolutely remarkable. But asyou say, not only I mean, part
of why I started doing thispodcast was because I read, I'm
sure I've talked about itbefore, but I read a new
strategy from UKRI, which talkedabout public engagement, and it
(19:06):
talked about the academics, andit talked about the communities
that they wanted to work with.At no point in the entire
document did it reference thepeople who would be in the
middle, who would actually bedoing the work of pulling all of
this strategy together andactually delivering on this
strategy. And so the fact thatpeople were invisible, even in a
(19:28):
document which was about theirjob, I found absolutely
astonishing. And I think yousaid to me when we were talking
beforehand, that it's almostlike being invisible. If you're
good at your job, that'sinvisible and that's quite it's,
(19:49):
it's frustrating. It makes a lotof sense to me
Rachel Reeds (19:53):
Yeah, so professionals roles generally,
are invisible by design. So theyare because of this traditional
concept of them as sort ofsupport roles, especially when
you're thinking about the verytraditional professional
services role. So for example,course administration, looking
after enrolled students, dataand processing their results and
exam boards and everything. It'ssilent. You know, no one as a
(20:13):
student has any idea thatsomeone is like doing that work.
They don't know really aboutexam boards and who's writing
minutes and things like that. Noone thinks about that kind of
thing, and all of the processthat go through to get a course
approved or to design someteaching and learning. What they
see is the face. They see thelecturer. They see the
materials. They see the outputat the end of it. So when an
(20:34):
academic is doing their jobreally, really well, it's
visible because there's output,there's there's there's things
in the REF, they've got good NSSscores, that's the National
Student Survey about, you know,how good your course is and how
good your university is. They'regetting good unit, module, you
know, output, things like that.They're getting good grades.
They're getting lots of firstclass and second, two one
(20:55):
degrees coming out the end. Ifyou do your job perfectly in
course administration, everyonegets their grades processed on
time. Everything hits thedeadlines. There are no
mistakes. There are no errors.Everyone thinks it just happens
by magic, and yet, when it goeswrong, it becomes this big, big
drama, and it's and it's oftennot resourced, because it's not
recognized, because it's done soquietly and so well that
(21:18):
therefore it's easy to overlookit. The analogy someone came up
with shared with me a coupleweeks ago is you have to think
of it like plankton, utterlyfoundational and fundamental to
the ecosystem of the of theenvironment, but because you
can't see it, you might notthink it's there or that you
need it. Yeah, and that'ssometimes what it can be -
professional services plankton,
Sarah McLusky (21:40):
I'm not sure, I'm not sure people will want to be
compared to plankton
Rachel Reeds (21:44):
Well it's fundamental, but it's really
important, because I thinksometimes there's dialog,
particularly in the press,particularly in the sort of like
Times Higher Education space, orin Government speak, where,
where there's this weird conceptthat universities in that
abstract concept and could existif you took away all this, you
(22:06):
know, managerialisation is thedeath of HE. But let's be blunt,
if you took all the academicsout of an institution, or
everyone on academic contract,between everyone who's on a
professional contract, whoactually does do teaching and
learning, between all theknowledge that we have across
the board, we probably getmanage all right? We could
probably rustle up quite a fewcourses between us. We could
(22:27):
cover subject knowledge. Wecould, there's lots of research
going on, there's lots ofacademic writing going on,
there's output there. We couldprobably muddle along for a
while, okay? If you took aninstitution, took all the
professional services staff out,it would all collapse. Yeah, who
would they ring if there wasaudio visual emergency, who, who
was going to build the learning,the virtual learning
(22:48):
environment, who's going topopulate things, who's going to
process the result? It wouldjust all collapse. So it really
is symbiotic relationship, andthat's just totally not
acknowledged to the degree itshould be.
Sarah McLusky (22:58):
I think a lot of people as well talk about as
being like, like the glue. Andyou know, when glue dries, it
dries clear. You know, you don'twant to see glue. You don't want
glue oozing down the edge ofsomething. I want it to be
invisible, but it's thereholding everything together.
And, yeah, I think you'reabsolutely right. I've certainly
been in places where a reallykey member of staff has has
(23:21):
moved on to a new opportunity,and suddenly it's like, oh, what
do we do? Who knows how to doall this stuff?
Are you listening to thispodcast for career inspiration?
Even though research-adjacentroles are pretty niche there are
still so many different pathsthat you could take. For a bit
of a nudge in the rightdirection try the
research-adjacent careers quizat researchadjacent.com/quiz.
(23:45):
Based on your strengths andinterests, it will suggest a job
category to explore further withsome recommendations for podcast
episodes from the ResearchAdjacent back catalogue to give
you some more inspiration.Complete the quiz at research
adjacent.com or click the linkin the show notes.
I think though, from hearing youtalk, and then even just from
the career choices that you'vemade, I get the impression
(24:07):
you're somebody who likes tochallenge things, perhaps.
Rachel Reeds (24:13):
Oh yes, I like to be a positive disruptor. That's
what I call it. Yes. I mean, Ihave done that right from the
start of my career, in someways. Going back a little bit in
my career. I so I went to asmall, independent, all girls
school, very white and middleclass in kind of a medium sized
(24:35):
town in the the East Anglia. Iwent to, I did history at York,
traditional choice of subjectfor a traditional kind of
university, lovely city to domedieval history in, but again,
quite small in terms of thegrand scheme of cities and towns
and the campus university. Quitelots of people who were quite
like me, but with more accents,because I was up north, lots of
(24:56):
beautiful accents and and then Iworked in a rural council in
East Northamptonshire DistrictCouncil. So it was very sort of
samey. Everyone was quitesimilar. And then I, when I
started working in highereducation, I worked at the
University of Bedfordshire inLuton, and it's quite sad in a
way, I suppose, but at the ageof 24 I suddenly realized I did
(25:19):
not understand how the worldworked, and that actually things
I understood like and believedin, like a meritocracy, for
example, if you just work hard,you'll get somewhere. I just
suddenly thought this, thisdoesn't mesh with what I'm
seeing. I'm seeing profiling ofstudents based on race and
ethnicity. I'm seeing profilingof staff. And see I mean, and
this is back in the days beforethe UKVI audit, when the
(25:40):
international recruitment wasking, and no one followed any
rules, because no one waskeeping check on it. And so I
then start. I studied mymasters, part time at Birkbeck
College, because it was the onlyplace I could do Twilight
teaching, and I really wantedthe classroom based experience.
And I did a Masters in culture,ethnicity and diaspora, and it
(26:02):
was my unlearning moment. So forme, it that masters that journey
those two years, and thatstarting to work in Luton was
the opening up of my eyes as tohow dysfunctional the world is
and how but also, on the samehand, how government and
establishment and certain thingscan just carry on, oblivious to
(26:22):
how dysfunctional the world isand community is and how
disadvantaged some groups are.So what went into being, I want
to do something in publicservice with that really
galvanized me, and it made methink I don't want I want to be
part of the change, part of thepositivity, not perpetuating it.
So I feel very strongly about myvalues working in higher
(26:43):
education, that I will alwayswant to work in university that
needs my sort of expertise or mychallenge and push that will
treat it, will understand thatmoney is tight, that we haven't
got much, that we can't sit andcomplain. We've just got to get
on with it. And, you know, findour cowboy way through which we
did a lot at Bedfordshire,because it's a small university,
(27:04):
you've got to get things done.You've got to make it happen
yourself. So that's reallyembedded in a weird way. It's
like a second journey oflearning or unlearning and then
relearning. That now is centralto everything. And I am terribly
conscious of my own privilege,and always want to make sure
that everything I'm doing is, inshort, is elevating somebody
(27:26):
else, whether that's one of myteam members that report to me,
that's my approach to kind ofleadership, management, whether
it's writing this book. Youknow, that was about like,
here's the crib sheet, guys,here's the stuff that people
aren't going to tell you. No, noone who's been here 20 years
really understands it either. Sohere's a quick history of why
we're here. Here's what a vicechancellor is. Here's what a
post-92 is. These things webandy around that no one knows
(27:50):
what they mean. And for thosethat don't know what post-92 is,
it's a university. It's apolytechnic that became
University in 1992 when thedivide between polytechnics and
universities was removed,structurally, but not
culturally.
Sarah McLusky (28:02):
No, indeed.
Rachel Reeds (28:03):
Yeah. So I do like to disrupt, but I try to make it
from a place of positivity.
Sarah McLusky (28:08):
Yeah. It certainly sounds like, as you
see, the things that you've doneare looking at how you can help
other people to to get on,navigate the system. And, yeah,
Yeah, I think it's easy, isn't it, to kind of
Rachel Reeds (28:21):
Yeah, make the system work or subvert the
system as far as you can. Yes,yeah. And that person, when,
when I worked a courseadministration academic, would
be like, Oh, but the regulationssay we can't do this. Like,
fetishize that if only thesystem was different than
there's no wiggle room. I'mlike, there is always wiggle
room. We will find a way. I'dsay with applicants, you know,
they think I haven't got thegrades to get in. I can't go to
university. Yeah, maybe notright now, yeah, but with
(28:42):
information, advice andguidance, and I'm never just
everything would be fixed. Butin reality, it's about what
going to turn someone away andsay, No, you can't. It's always
not now. Yeah, I thinkadmissions should never be a no.
It's always a not now, but thisis what you can do to get where
you want to go.
yeah, definitely
individuals can do within thesystem. You know, yes, working
(29:10):
to change it, but also workingthe best you can with what it is
Sarah McLusky (29:16):
Fantastic. Oh, well, to get maybe to some of
the more conventional questions.I like to ask
Rachel Reeds (29:22):
Oh, sorry
Sarah McLusky (29:22):
my guests no, no, is this is fascinating. I could
now. Yeah,
rant on about this kind of stufffor hours. So yeah. Tell us
about I mean, maybe, maybe it'sthe book, but maybe there are
other examples, but, um, somethings that you've done in your
career that you're really proudof.
Rachel Reeds (29:40):
Yes, I'm proud of the book, but I am proud of the
journey that I went on, and theconfidence that I've built, and
the self belief that I've builtthat meant I could do it. So for
me, it was a very empoweringexperience, despite the constant
self doubt and impostersyndrome. Yeah. That represents
(30:01):
a journey that I've been on andrepresents my way of, I suppose,
articulating in a verysubstantial way and in a
physical way, my belief inauthentic leadership and
breaking down barriers andmaking things as transparent as
(30:22):
possible. So I'm proud of thebook, not for it in and of
itself, but for what itrepresents very much so. And as
a leader and a manager, I'm veryproud of seeing team members and
people I've mentored go off andfly. I think that's that's the
most rewarding, and bizarrely,the bit I love most about my job
(30:44):
is not anything to do with HE orthe actual work, that my
greatest joy is mentoring othersand supporting them to go on. So
it was a way of, well, ofspreading that. But I'm also
very proud of some of the, Isuppose, the things I've done in
my career that are evidence ofthe resilience of our sector and
(31:05):
the resilience of the peoplethat work in our sector. So my I
did exactly one calendar year intaught admissions before my
manager went on maternity leave,and they and left me in charge,
and they didn't backfill mypost. I was doing my job and her
job, and I didn't know what Iwas doing. So making it up as I
went along. And it was leaninginto the team and leaning into
(31:27):
their knowledge. And just start,you know, my I've always come
back to this. Just start, justget on with it. That taught me
that within myself, I have ahuge amount that can get me
through most things, so I am notand it taught me that there is
never, never a barrier thatcan't be shifted a little bit or
negotiated with or shuffled, butalso that you have to protect
(31:51):
yourself, otherwise no one elsewill do it for you. My anxiety
during that time went throughthe roof because of the pressure
and everyone was I was alwaysmaybe a bit too proficient.
Probably should have dropped afew more balls so they might
have got a bit more support. Butyes, it was a journey of
resilience. But yeah, so I don'tthink I'm proud of very specific
(32:12):
achievements. For me, it's moreabout the journey, and the book
has been a really nice marker ofthat.
Sarah McLusky (32:17):
And I think from what you've said there about
that sense of mentoring others.It's almost like that's the
intention behind the book, isn'tit? So it's almost that's more
important than the physical yourjourney, and then the intention
behind it, yeah,
Rachel Reeds (32:30):
Yes. And I say quite early on the book that I
think that one of the biggestfrustrations I have is there is
so much knowledge in highereducation, particularly in
professional services, and it isjust not handed on, because
there are no or very limitedmechanisms to do so. So whereas
if you've become go and get yourfirst like junior lecturer job
or become a you know researcher,there's, there's so much,
(32:51):
there's so much resource outthere, because your professional
community that are surroundingyou are structured, is
structured in a way thatencourages that knowledge to be
quantified, to be perpetuated.There's probably someone
actually paid someone to writesome of that stuff, you know, or
it came out of a researchproject and one of the
associated like publicengagement elements, was that
(33:12):
there needs to be, you know,something built on this that's
about passing on the the projectside of the work, rather than
just the actual content andoutput. So it's about breaking
down that barriers. But I alsothink silence is what impact
what I was gonna say, somethingI was kind of saying silence is
what keeps us down, which thisis not a revolution, but it it
(33:34):
is true that we professionalservices, quietly amongst
ourselves, are frustrated, butdon't always speak up. And my
call to action at the end of thebook is very much to speak up,
speak out. Because we don't doit enough. We let things happen.
I think we can be guilty of thattoo. So there is a need for us
not to just sit and befrustrated, but to speak up and
(33:56):
to challenge some of those,those norms around knowledge
creation and dissemination.
Sarah McLusky (34:01):
I think certainly you might say it's not a
revolution, but I can't helpthink we need a little bit of
revolution, and that'sdefinitely part of what I'm in
this this for, as well
Rachel Reeds (34:12):
Positive disruption.
Sarah McLusky (34:14):
Absolutely. Well, I think that's a really nice
place to lead on to question Ilike to ask all of my guests,
which is, if you had a magicwand. How would this world look
different?
Rachel Reeds (34:25):
Well
Sarah McLusky (34:27):
It is a magic wand.
Rachel Reeds (34:28):
A magic wand. It can do anything. Yeah. So, I
mean, I would ditch the binaryabout an academic and a
professional, and think aboutstructuring an entire, the
higher entire, HE sector aroundmuch more agile, so that we
could draw strengths frompeople, so people could have
predominantly more in theprofessional space, or
(34:49):
predominantly more in teaching,learning space. But there is far
too much lost in the inbetweenand in those binaries that that
could really make it the mostwonderful sector. And when you
see what's happening inAustralia in terms of the way
they. The theprofessionalization of higher
education professionals isabout, I don't know, 10-20 years
ahead of in the UK. OneAustralian university just
appointed their first vicechancellor, female vice
(35:12):
chancellor that came through aprofessional route. Not
something you can even envisagehappening in the UK. I can't
even imagine there being aprofessional services Vice
Chancellor, let alone a femaleone. It. It's really distant
from what we can think about.And I would ditch the league
tables,
Sarah McLusky (35:29):
Yeah
Rachel Reeds (35:30):
and it would, it would all be about distance
traveled, because the entireleague tables would then be
inverted, because the applicantsthat I work with come in with
very small aspirations and lifechances, and the what they go
out with is so much more of ajourney than what you know a 3
As student from a grammar schoolcomes in with and goes out with,
(35:52):
the distance traveled and theimpact on their life is so much
more substantial. So we I wouldinvert them all together, but
also I would reverse some of thenarrowing of academic divisions.
So even my masters was ininterdisciplinary space, and I
did a module in the Departmentof History, and I got my my
(36:16):
assignment for that downgradedby the external examiner because
there was too much theory in it.And I thought, Well, that's all.
That's what's wrong with yourdiscipline, sir. But anyway,
didn't say that totally, but itmade me, you know what these
they're so artificial, all ofthese boundaries. So I would,
yeah, disrupt them all togetherand think about more as
(36:37):
assemblages of expertise, ratherthan divisions, departments,
schools and boundaries in thesame way,
Sarah McLusky (36:44):
Nice. I like the idea of that vision for the
future. Fantastic. Well, I thinkwe should think about wrapping
up our conversation, but justremind people again, the name of
your book, and we'll put a linkin the show notes where they can
find it.
Rachel Reeds (37:00):
Yeah, it's Surviving and Thriving in Higher
Education Professional ServicesA Guide to Success, which makes
it sound even moredistinguished. It's basically a
guide to, it's a call to actionto stop waiting for unicorn to
land in your lap and that no oneis going to hand you career
opportunities that younecessarily might be waiting
for. You have to get up, go anddo them for yourself. It's all
(37:22):
things that you can do foryourself, to take the reins and
to be bold and speak up.
Sarah McLusky (37:26):
That's a fantastic message. And where can
people track you down?
Rachel Reeds (37:30):
I'm always talking too much on LinkedIn, so I'm
quite keen to engage there. ButI also have a website which is
just my name, rachelreeds.co.uk,which has got my contact details
of someone wants to contact andI've committed myself for 2025
to do like a monthly freewebinar and workshop on
different sort of skills andthings, because CPD so hard to
(37:51):
access. So I like doing anythingwhere I can talk and use a few
unicorns or astronauts orsomething fun. I like a theme.
Sarah McLusky (37:59):
Excellent and well, as I say, we'll put links
to all of those things in theshow notes. So thank you so much
Rachel for coming along.
Rachel Reeds (38:06):
Thank you
Sarah McLusky (38:11):
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent.
If you're listening in a podcastapp, please check your
subscribed and then use thelinks in the episode description
to find full show notes andfollow the podcast on LinkedIn
or Instagram. You can also findall the links and other episodes
at www.researchadjacent.com.Research Adjacent is presented
(38:32):
and produced by Sarah McLusky,and the theme music is by Lemon
Music Studios on Pixabay. Andyou, yes you, get a big gold
star for listening right to theend. See you next time.
Our roles are very much designed to be invisible.
If we do a good job inprofessional roles, no one sees
the work. If you do a smallerror, it becomes a giant drama.
You literally are invisible.Because since 2019 it's not been
mandatory to return the numbersof people on non-academic
contracts to the HESA HigherEducation Statistics Agency,
(00:23):
which is the datacapturemechanism for higher education.
Professional services quietlyamongst ourselves are
frustrated, but don't alwaysspeak up. And my call to action
at the end of the book is verymuch a speak up, speak out,
because we don't do it enough.
Sarah McLusky (00:41):
Hello there. I'm Sarah McLusky, and this is
Research Adjacent. Each episode,I talk to amazing research
adjacent professionals aboutwhat they do and why it makes a
difference. Keep listening tofind out why we think the
research adjacent space is wherethe real magic happens.
(01:03):
Hello and welcome to episode 60of Research Adjacent. Today my
guest is Rachel Reeds. Rachel isslightly different to my usual
guest, because although she hasbeen research-adjacent in the
past, strictly speaking, she'snot research-adjacent now. But
what Rachel does know a lotabout are the challenges facing
professionals, includingresearch-adjacent ones, working
(01:23):
in higher education. Describingherself as a positive disruptor,
Rachel has recently published abook called Surviving and
Thriving in Higher EducationProfessional Services. The book
draws both on her own career,working mainly in university
admissions, and interviews withother HE professionals in a wide
variety of roles. In ourconversation, we talk a lot
(01:45):
about the disparities betweenacademic and professional
contracts, why professionalroles are invisible by design,
and why she wants to embolden usall to speak out more. We also
talk about why Rachel is drawntowards work which supports the
underdog and works to change thesystem from within. As well as
the book, Rachel is developing arange of support for higher
(02:06):
education professionals,including free monthly workshops
if you're listening to thisepisode, when it comes out, the
next workshop is going to be onthis Friday, which is the 17th
of January, 2025 so check thelink in the show notes for
details, and even if you'vemissed that one, as I say, she's
doing the monthly so hopefullythere will be another one coming
up very soon. Before we get onto Rachel's story I want to
(02:27):
remind you to sign up for theResearch Adjacent newsletter.
Every fortnight, I sendsubscribers my top takeaways
from the most recent podcastepisode. They are insights that
you won't find anywhere else. Soif you want to know my thoughts
about this episode, then makesure that you're subscribed by
Monday the 20th of January. Ifyou're listening in a podcast
app, you'll find the link in theshow notes. And if you're
(02:48):
listening on the website, thenscroll down to the bottom of the
web page for the sign up form.But for now, let's get back to
the episode. Listen on to hearRachel's story.
Welcome along to the podcast,Rachel, thank you so much for
joining us. I wonder if youcould tell our listeners a
little bit about what it is thatyou do. Well,
Rachel Reeds (03:09):
Thanks for having me. So I have been surviving and
thriving in higher educationprofessional services since 2011
and I came out of university anddecided I want to work in the
public sector. That was about asdeep as my thinking got. So I
started working in localgovernment, and the politics was
(03:29):
a bit too much for me. After awhile, my politics did not align
with the political party thatwas in, that dominated in this
rural district council. Sothat's when I moved into higher
education, and I have spentwonderful number of years now
moving across different elementsof the student journey, quality
assurance. I've worked inresearch administration, taught
course administration, and thenlaterally in admissions. And
(03:53):
that journey has taught me a lotabout some of the challenges of
working in higher education as aprofessional and some of the
disparities between academicsand professionals, which led me
in my frustration about the lackof development opportunities and
training and empowerment ofprofessional staff, who can feel
very marginalized and quiet whenour roles are very much designed
(04:17):
to be invisible. If we do a goodjob in professional roles, no,
no-one sees the work. If you doa small error, it becomes a
giant drama. So that led me towrite my book, which is also
called Surviving and Thriving inHigher Education Professional
Services, which came out thisweek.
Sarah McLusky (04:33):
Yeah it's fantastic. It's a really
exciting week to have you on thepodcast, although, by the time
this goes out, it will be, youknow, slightly
slightly in the past, but but still, people can
Rachel Reeds (04:40):
I realized that
still go and find the book andread it. And certainly it is, it
is the book, hearing about thebook that that led me to you. So
you're not a typical guest wewould have on Research Adjacent
in the sense that at the moment,although you have previously
worked alongside researchstudents, you don't currently
(05:03):
work in a research-adjacentrole, but but certainly very
familiar with this whole highereducation professional services
landscape, having moved aroundsome different roles there. So
you mentioned there briefly someof the different roles that
you've had. Maybe you could tellus a little bit more about what
you do now and what some of theother things that you've done
(05:24):
Of course. So currently, I work in admissions.
Sarah McLusky (05:24):
Yeah and they do feel like chasms, yes.
over your career
I lead a home admissionsfunction. It's not really home
admissions - it's everyone whodoesn't need a visa - admissions
department. So CPD, degree,apprenticeships, further
education, undergraduate taught,post graduate taught, I don't
currently have researchadmissions because that's such a
(05:44):
specialist area that usuallysits within the research
graduate school or somewheresimilar. I like working in
admissions most particularlybecause you are at the start of
the student journey. You are thegatekeepers and also the
facilitators of bringing peopleinto higher education and
opening up opportunities. AndI've always worked in new
(06:05):
universities, post-92universities as we call them. So
for me, that's a very importantpart of my professional
identity, is that I work ininstitutions that have central
to their ethos wideningparticipation and broadening
access to higher education. Sothere's something very powerful
to me about making sure that I'mpart of the mechanisms and the
(06:26):
processes and the environmentthat can enable people who
probably spent a lot of theirlife thinking that university
wasn't for them or that theycouldn't necessarily achieve if
they were in that space, that itwouldn't be suited to them
culturally. So being in aposition to break some of those
barriers, for me is verypowerful place to be. I enjoy
(06:48):
all different parts of workingon the student journey, but
there is something very directlyimpactful about the work that
you do in admissions where youcan see that one conversation
can absolutely adjust thetrajectory of somebody's life,
someone who thought there was abarrier that you can then help
them dismantle is, yeah, it'sreally powerful. But I started
(07:10):
in quality assurance with thestructures of course approvals
and and the academic side ofthings. So having experience in
course approvals and coursestructures, in a business
school, there's lots ofacademics who are very good at
the theory and not so good atthe accounting. Academics never
could make their credit add upto 100, which was a bit
(07:31):
frustrating, and going from thatto then taught course
administration. So the middle ofthe journey means that I come at
all of the work I do in highereducation in a more holistic
way, thinking about how thedifferent bits fit together.
Particularly when I worked inthe research graduate school,
that was enlightening, becauseit's such a transitional space
(07:53):
between academic and theprofessional, and you have to
float across it. It's, you know,that some of the Celia
Whitchurch's concepts aboutthird space, this space between
and among and in both spaces atonce simultaneously, which I
really felt when I worked inthat space. But I also still
think it, I think it permitpermeates higher education
(08:14):
altogether, you, you know, andthat those who work in the
research space have totransition across those
boundaries and across those chasms.
Sometimes, depending on thesituation that you're in
Rachel Reeds (08:30):
They do, because for all that we talk about,
breaking down barriers and thirdspace working and transitions
between spaces, ultimately,there is an absolute binary in
higher education and in theacademic world that says you are
either an academic or you arenot an academic. And that's
absolutely enshrined in thecontractual differences. And I
don't know that in any otherindustry or space, do you have
(08:53):
such a binary contrast? Mostcontracts in the in the private
sector space are focused around,you know, task, output,
responsibilities, expectationsand role, whereas you are either
in the teaching, learning,research box or you're not. And
it's very strange to work in aspace, and I imagine you
probably have this in the healthservice too, where you're
(09:14):
define, defined by what you arenot, so you're non-academic, or
you're non-clinical, or anythinglike that. So and it's when
you're already defined by anegative and by a by exception
or by not being part ofsomething that's really quite a
negative or outside space tocome from. So it doesn't really
empower people in that space toto speak up and speak with
(09:34):
confidence. And then there'sthat primacy that comes from
that academic space and thefreedoms they have enshrined in
their contracts. Academicfreedom is enshrined in a
contract, whereas myprofessional contract says I
need to please keep quiet andcarry on. Thank you. No opinions
required.
Sarah McLusky (09:52):
There's definitely things there I want
to pick up on. So just that,well, let's, let's just go with
that first one about some of thedifferences in the contracts
between, because that'ssomething that you talk a bit
about in your book, thedifferences between. It's, it's
everything from the expectationsto the actual, you know, terms
(10:15):
and conditions of employment.Tell us a bit more about some of
those disparities. For those whoare not aware.
Rachel Reeds (10:22):
The fundamental distinction is around this, what
starts with this concept ofacademic freedom. So in a in an
academic, in a teaching,learning or pure research
contract for an academic role,there is an enshrined protection
for of freedom of speech, whichgoes beyond the traditional
concepts of freedom of speechand into the realm of academic
(10:43):
freedom, where they are in aspace where they are encouraged
to and empowered to challenge,and they can speak to both
challenge in terms of theirsubject and their particular
area of research, but also thinksome of those institutional
structures within which they'reoperating, they can speak more
comfortably. They have anenshrined expectation that they
will enter into contract withother organizations, so they
(11:06):
will be an external examiner,for example, at another
institution, or they will do aconsultancy project, or they
will be part of a researchproject. And that's encouraged
actively and seen as a realstrength from their work, and it
really betters their work to bepart of those other things, and
there is very minimalunderstanding, or total lack of
reference, to any kind ofpotential commercial conflict of
(11:28):
interest that might bring. Sothere'll be, there'll be
consideration of the ethicalimplications and those kinds of
conflicts of interest. But thereis no concern that an academic
might go and tell someoneanother institution about I
don't know our like offer-makinga strategy or something, but for
professional staff, we arecontractually tied to that one
(11:49):
employer. Our contracts usuallysay that we're not allowed to
enter into contract with anyoneelse. So I was in breach of my
contract by entering intocontract with Routledge to
publish my book. But, you know,that's a very small example of
it, but that's the that is,technically what happened. And
also, there is no expectation orno space for any teaching,
(12:11):
learning or research work on aprofessional services contract,
which is ridiculous when youconsider that an academic
librarian is on a professionalcontract, and they are quite
actively straddling those twospaces. Or when you consider
someone who might teach academicskills, they're not an academic,
because an academic is a veryconceptual space to be in,
(12:33):
because it is, it's aboutteaching and learning, but it's
not just teaching and learning.It's a specific kind of teaching
and learning and a specificframework around which, within
which teaching and learningshould be done that's different
from academic skills or the worklibrarians in particular do, or
researcher development trainingthat can often can be done by
(12:56):
academic staff, but it also canbe done by professional staff,
and yet it's sits directlywithin, you know, one space.
Sarah McLusky (13:05):
Yeah it starts to fall apart. There's so many
roles. As you say, researchlibrarians being one of them. I
used to be in a fairly strategicrole in a research institute as
a manager, helping to direct theresearch and make decisions
about what funding applicationswere put in. So again, it's that
(13:26):
idea of of falling through thecracks between what's considered
professional services and what'sconsidered academia, and the
more you pick at it, the less itmakes sense.
Rachel Reeds (13:38):
Yeah, absolutely. And I have colleagues. There's a
colleague represented in thebook, one of the 11
contributors, who shared theirstories and their journeys
through higher education with mefor the book, Dr Joanne
Caldwell, who has published workaround professional services
identity. That's what she didher doctorate focus on and she
grapples, and she talks openlyabout grappling with people
(14:00):
constantly asking her when she'sgoing to transition to the
academic space, because it'sseen as an elevated space that,
of course, she must want to moveinto, which she doesn't. But
simultaneously, she works in ain a in a business school that
are willing to support herresearch interests, but
contractually can't give hertime to do that, because there
is no space in a professionalcontract for research because
(14:24):
it's not seen as something thatprofessional staff would do. And
yet, you have people working inpartnership, academic staff and
professional staff. And if wewant to engage in research or
write, like I did all of my bookon my own time, that's what we
have to do. The MA educationcourse leader might say, I'd
(14:44):
really like to hear from seniorprofessional staff for helping,
you know, do a webinar or aseminar, sorry, for students on
MA education practice. We can doit on our own time.
Sarah McLusky (14:57):
Yeah
Rachel Reeds (14:58):
We might get a release from our time. to do it.
But we also, if you were a staffmember that maybe wasn't earning
a salary at a lecturer level,you've got, they can't pay you
for the work at that level. Sothere's a, I don't know, lack of
recognition of of that knowledgeas well.
Sarah McLusky (15:14):
Yeah. And also it's, it's sometimes I frustrate
myself because I'm like,sometimes we don't necessarily
have to play by the same rules.But if you look at the academic
model in the sense of how youadvance subject area, is that
you do research on it, and youpublish on that research, and
there are aspects of the workthat is classed as professional
(15:35):
services. So for example, someof the ones I think of
particularly, are things likepublic engagement and researcher
development, where people arebeing encouraged to do research
and publish on that topic, youknow, on do research, on public
engagement and what's bestpractice, and talking about
that, but still being consideredprofessional services. And and
(15:59):
it's this, it's it's like a bindthat that just stifles some of
that progress.
Rachel Reeds (16:08):
It stifles progress innovation, and is
inherently discomforting to beworking in a teaching, learning
and research institution, andthat be for the students, but
not for us. Yeah. And accessingthat is quite challenging. But
then on the flip side, it mustbe very, very frustrating
working in a higher educationsetting, working in something
(16:29):
like marketing or for example,and not being able to influence
or contribute to theinstitutional marketing
strategies and plans andsuccess. So there is a weird
disconnect. Yeah, it's quite anuncomfortable space to be in.
And just, you know, bypublishing this book from for
(16:51):
me, there are people that are, Imean, a lot of professional
services community are like, Ah,this is amazing. We are we feel
unheard, we feel unseen. Andthey but they haven't been able
to rationalize or understandnecessarily why they feel that
way. So it's giving a framework,but also giving them the
information data that backs itup. So when I explain to
(17:12):
professional staff that youliterally are invisible, because
since 2019 it's not beenmandatory to return the numbers
of people on non-academiccontracts to the HESA Higher
Education Statistics Agency,which is the, the data capture
mechanism for higher education.So you literally don't exist,
(17:33):
because if you're not counted,you don't feature in the
research. And so when you seesomething like Advance HE last
week or so published some workaround progression. I think it
was about the gender pay gap andthinking about women progressing
in higher education. And theyunfortunately fell into that
trap of talking about the datasays that in higher education.
(17:53):
And I had to say, I went back tothem and said, I think you've
missed the word academic out afew times here, because you
can't make thesegeneralizations, because some
institutions do return data ontheir people who aren't on
academic contracts, but they'regoing to distort the picture,
because unfortunately the 97 orso institutions that don't
bother you know, what does thatsay about them as an
institution, that they're notdoing it and are the ones that
(18:16):
contribute it are? They'reprobably just carrying on with
what they did before, and it'ssort of straightforward to do
so, but when you're not in thedata, you literally don't exist
in the research. Then how canpeople do research and analysis
when there is no data about thethe other half?
Sarah McLusky (18:31):
And that's an astonishing statistic. I
remember seeing you postingabout it on on LinkedIn a couple
of months ago. I think it wasand I didn't quite believe it,
and I went away and checked.
Rachel Reeds (18:42):
You have to check
Sarah McLusky (18:43):
because I didn't quite believe it, and it's
absolutely remarkable. But asyou say, not only I mean, part
of why I started doing thispodcast was because I read, I'm
sure I've talked about itbefore, but I read a new
strategy from UKRI, which talkedabout public engagement, and it
(19:06):
talked about the academics, andit talked about the communities
that they wanted to work with.At no point in the entire
document did it reference thepeople who would be in the
middle, who would actually bedoing the work of pulling all of
this strategy together andactually delivering on this
strategy. And so the fact thatpeople were invisible, even in a
(19:28):
document which was about theirjob, I found absolutely
astonishing. And I think yousaid to me when we were talking
beforehand, that it's almostlike being invisible. If you're
good at your job, that'sinvisible and that's quite it's,
(19:49):
it's frustrating. It makes a lotof sense to me
Rachel Reeds (19:53):
Yeah, so professionals roles generally,
are invisible by design. So theyare because of this traditional
concept of them as sort ofsupport roles, especially when
you're thinking about the verytraditional professional
services role. So for example,course administration, looking
after enrolled students, dataand processing their results and
exam boards and everything. It'ssilent. You know, no one as a
(20:13):
student has any idea thatsomeone is like doing that work.
They don't know really aboutexam boards and who's writing
minutes and things like that. Noone thinks about that kind of
thing, and all of the processthat go through to get a course
approved or to design someteaching and learning. What they
see is the face. They see thelecturer. They see the
materials. They see the outputat the end of it. So when an
(20:34):
academic is doing their jobreally, really well, it's
visible because there's output,there's there's there's things
in the REF, they've got good NSSscores, that's the National
Student Survey about, you know,how good your course is and how
good your university is. They'regetting good unit, module, you
know, output, things like that.They're getting good grades.
They're getting lots of firstclass and second, two one
(20:55):
degrees coming out the end. Ifyou do your job perfectly in
course administration, everyonegets their grades processed on
time. Everything hits thedeadlines. There are no
mistakes. There are no errors.Everyone thinks it just happens
by magic, and yet, when it goeswrong, it becomes this big, big
drama, and it's and it's oftennot resourced, because it's not
recognized, because it's done soquietly and so well that
(21:18):
therefore it's easy to overlookit. The analogy someone came up
with shared with me a coupleweeks ago is you have to think
of it like plankton, utterlyfoundational and fundamental to
the ecosystem of the of theenvironment, but because you
can't see it, you might notthink it's there or that you
need it. Yeah, and that'ssometimes what it can be -
professional services plankton,
Sarah McLusky (21:40):
I'm not sure, I'm not sure people will want to be
compared to plankton
Rachel Reeds (21:44):
Well it's fundamental, but it's really
important, because I thinksometimes there's dialog,
particularly in the press,particularly in the sort of like
Times Higher Education space, orin Government speak, where,
where there's this weird conceptthat universities in that
abstract concept and could existif you took away all this, you
(22:06):
know, managerialisation is thedeath of HE. But let's be blunt,
if you took all the academicsout of an institution, or
everyone on academic contract,between everyone who's on a
professional contract, whoactually does do teaching and
learning, between all theknowledge that we have across
the board, we probably getmanage all right? We could
probably rustle up quite a fewcourses between us. We could
(22:27):
cover subject knowledge. Wecould, there's lots of research
going on, there's lots ofacademic writing going on,
there's output there. We couldprobably muddle along for a
while, okay? If you took aninstitution, took all the
professional services staff out,it would all collapse. Yeah, who
would they ring if there wasaudio visual emergency, who, who
was going to build the learning,the virtual learning
(22:48):
environment, who's going topopulate things, who's going to
process the result? It wouldjust all collapse. So it really
is symbiotic relationship, andthat's just totally not
acknowledged to the degree itshould be.
Sarah McLusky (22:58):
I think a lot of people as well talk about as
being like, like the glue. Andyou know, when glue dries, it
dries clear. You know, you don'twant to see glue. You don't want
glue oozing down the edge ofsomething. I want it to be
invisible, but it's thereholding everything together.
And, yeah, I think you'reabsolutely right. I've certainly
been in places where a reallykey member of staff has has
(23:21):
moved on to a new opportunity,and suddenly it's like, oh, what
do we do? Who knows how to doall this stuff?
Are you listening to thispodcast for career inspiration?
Even though research-adjacentroles are pretty niche there are
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of a nudge in the rightdirection try the
research-adjacent careers quizat researchadjacent.com/quiz.
(23:45):
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I think though, from hearing youtalk, and then even just from
the career choices that you'vemade, I get the impression
(24:07):
you're somebody who likes tochallenge things, perhaps.
Rachel Reeds (24:13):
Oh yes, I like to be a positive disruptor. That's
what I call it. Yes. I mean, Ihave done that right from the
start of my career, in someways. Going back a little bit in
my career. I so I went to asmall, independent, all girls
school, very white and middleclass in kind of a medium sized
(24:35):
town in the the East Anglia. Iwent to, I did history at York,
traditional choice of subjectfor a traditional kind of
university, lovely city to domedieval history in, but again,
quite small in terms of thegrand scheme of cities and towns
and the campus university. Quitelots of people who were quite
like me, but with more accents,because I was up north, lots of
(24:56):
beautiful accents and and then Iworked in a rural council in
East Northamptonshire DistrictCouncil. So it was very sort of
samey. Everyone was quitesimilar. And then I, when I
started working in highereducation, I worked at the
University of Bedfordshire inLuton, and it's quite sad in a
way, I suppose, but at the ageof 24 I suddenly realized I did
(25:19):
not understand how the worldworked, and that actually things
I understood like and believedin, like a meritocracy, for
example, if you just work hard,you'll get somewhere. I just
suddenly thought this, thisdoesn't mesh with what I'm
seeing. I'm seeing profiling ofstudents based on race and
ethnicity. I'm seeing profilingof staff. And see I mean, and
this is back in the days beforethe UKVI audit, when the
(25:40):
international recruitment wasking, and no one followed any
rules, because no one waskeeping check on it. And so I
then start. I studied mymasters, part time at Birkbeck
College, because it was the onlyplace I could do Twilight
teaching, and I really wantedthe classroom based experience.
And I did a Masters in culture,ethnicity and diaspora, and it
(26:02):
was my unlearning moment. So forme, it that masters that journey
those two years, and thatstarting to work in Luton was
the opening up of my eyes as tohow dysfunctional the world is
and how but also, on the samehand, how government and
establishment and certain thingscan just carry on, oblivious to
(26:22):
how dysfunctional the world isand community is and how
disadvantaged some groups are.So what went into being, I want
to do something in publicservice with that really
galvanized me, and it made methink I don't want I want to be
part of the change, part of thepositivity, not perpetuating it.
So I feel very strongly about myvalues working in higher
(26:43):
education, that I will alwayswant to work in university that
needs my sort of expertise or mychallenge and push that will
treat it, will understand thatmoney is tight, that we haven't
got much, that we can't sit andcomplain. We've just got to get
on with it. And, you know, findour cowboy way through which we
did a lot at Bedfordshire,because it's a small university,
(27:04):
you've got to get things done.You've got to make it happen
yourself. So that's reallyembedded in a weird way. It's
like a second journey oflearning or unlearning and then
relearning. That now is centralto everything. And I am terribly
conscious of my own privilege,and always want to make sure
that everything I'm doing is, inshort, is elevating somebody
(27:26):
else, whether that's one of myteam members that report to me,
that's my approach to kind ofleadership, management, whether
it's writing this book. Youknow, that was about like,
here's the crib sheet, guys,here's the stuff that people
aren't going to tell you. No, noone who's been here 20 years
really understands it either. Sohere's a quick history of why
we're here. Here's what a vicechancellor is. Here's what a
post-92 is. These things webandy around that no one knows
(27:50):
what they mean. And for thosethat don't know what post-92 is,
it's a university. It's apolytechnic that became
University in 1992 when thedivide between polytechnics and
universities was removed,structurally, but not
culturally.
Sarah McLusky (28:02):
No, indeed.
Rachel Reeds (28:03):
Yeah. So I do like to disrupt, but I try to make it
from a place of positivity.
Sarah McLusky (28:08):
Yeah. It certainly sounds like, as you
see, the things that you've doneare looking at how you can help
other people to to get on,navigate the system. And, yeah,
Yeah, I think it's easy, isn't it, to kind of
Rachel Reeds (28:21):
Yeah, make the system work or subvert the
system as far as you can. Yes,yeah. And that person, when,
when I worked a courseadministration academic, would
be like, Oh, but the regulationssay we can't do this. Like,
fetishize that if only thesystem was different than
there's no wiggle room. I'mlike, there is always wiggle
room. We will find a way. I'dsay with applicants, you know,
they think I haven't got thegrades to get in. I can't go to
university. Yeah, maybe notright now, yeah, but with
(28:42):
information, advice andguidance, and I'm never just
everything would be fixed. Butin reality, it's about what
going to turn someone away andsay, No, you can't. It's always
not now. Yeah, I thinkadmissions should never be a no.
It's always a not now, but thisis what you can do to get where
you want to go.
yeah, definitely
individuals can do within thesystem. You know, yes, working
(29:10):
to change it, but also workingthe best you can with what it is
Sarah McLusky (29:16):
Fantastic. Oh, well, to get maybe to some of
the more conventional questions.I like to ask
Rachel Reeds (29:22):
Oh, sorry
Sarah McLusky (29:22):
my guests no, no, is this is fascinating. I could
now. Yeah,
rant on about this kind of stufffor hours. So yeah. Tell us
about I mean, maybe, maybe it'sthe book, but maybe there are
other examples, but, um, somethings that you've done in your
career that you're really proudof.
Rachel Reeds (29:40):
Yes, I'm proud of the book, but I am proud of the
journey that I went on, and theconfidence that I've built, and
the self belief that I've builtthat meant I could do it. So for
me, it was a very empoweringexperience, despite the constant
self doubt and impostersyndrome. Yeah. That represents
(30:01):
a journey that I've been on andrepresents my way of, I suppose,
articulating in a verysubstantial way and in a
physical way, my belief inauthentic leadership and
breaking down barriers andmaking things as transparent as
(30:22):
possible. So I'm proud of thebook, not for it in and of
itself, but for what itrepresents very much so. And as
a leader and a manager, I'm veryproud of seeing team members and
people I've mentored go off andfly. I think that's that's the
most rewarding, and bizarrely,the bit I love most about my job
(30:44):
is not anything to do with HE orthe actual work, that my
greatest joy is mentoring othersand supporting them to go on. So
it was a way of, well, ofspreading that. But I'm also
very proud of some of the, Isuppose, the things I've done in
my career that are evidence ofthe resilience of our sector and
(31:05):
the resilience of the peoplethat work in our sector. So my I
did exactly one calendar year intaught admissions before my
manager went on maternity leave,and they and left me in charge,
and they didn't backfill mypost. I was doing my job and her
job, and I didn't know what Iwas doing. So making it up as I
went along. And it was leaninginto the team and leaning into
(31:27):
their knowledge. And just start,you know, my I've always come
back to this. Just start, justget on with it. That taught me
that within myself, I have ahuge amount that can get me
through most things, so I am notand it taught me that there is
never, never a barrier thatcan't be shifted a little bit or
negotiated with or shuffled, butalso that you have to protect
(31:51):
yourself, otherwise no one elsewill do it for you. My anxiety
during that time went throughthe roof because of the pressure
and everyone was I was alwaysmaybe a bit too proficient.
Probably should have dropped afew more balls so they might
have got a bit more support. Butyes, it was a journey of
resilience. But yeah, so I don'tthink I'm proud of very specific
(32:12):
achievements. For me, it's moreabout the journey, and the book
has been a really nice marker ofthat.
Sarah McLusky (32:17):
And I think from what you've said there about
that sense of mentoring others.It's almost like that's the
intention behind the book, isn'tit? So it's almost that's more
important than the physical yourjourney, and then the intention
behind it, yeah,
Rachel Reeds (32:30):
Yes. And I say quite early on the book that I
think that one of the biggestfrustrations I have is there is
so much knowledge in highereducation, particularly in
professional services, and it isjust not handed on, because
there are no or very limitedmechanisms to do so. So whereas
if you've become go and get yourfirst like junior lecturer job
or become a you know researcher,there's, there's so much,
(32:51):
there's so much resource outthere, because your professional
community that are surroundingyou are structured, is
structured in a way thatencourages that knowledge to be
quantified, to be perpetuated.There's probably someone
actually paid someone to writesome of that stuff, you know, or
it came out of a researchproject and one of the
associated like publicengagement elements, was that
(33:12):
there needs to be, you know,something built on this that's
about passing on the the projectside of the work, rather than
just the actual content andoutput. So it's about breaking
down that barriers. But I alsothink silence is what impact
what I was gonna say, somethingI was kind of saying silence is
what keeps us down, which thisis not a revolution, but it it
(33:34):
is true that we professionalservices, quietly amongst
ourselves, are frustrated, butdon't always speak up. And my
call to action at the end of thebook is very much to speak up,
speak out. Because we don't doit enough. We let things happen.
I think we can be guilty of thattoo. So there is a need for us
not to just sit and befrustrated, but to speak up and
(33:56):
to challenge some of those,those norms around knowledge
creation and dissemination.
Sarah McLusky (34:01):
I think certainly you might say it's not a
revolution, but I can't helpthink we need a little bit of
revolution, and that'sdefinitely part of what I'm in
this this for, as well
Rachel Reeds (34:12):
Positive disruption.
Sarah McLusky (34:14):
Absolutely. Well, I think that's a really nice
place to lead on to question Ilike to ask all of my guests,
which is, if you had a magicwand. How would this world look
different?
Rachel Reeds (34:25):
Well
Sarah McLusky (34:27):
It is a magic wand.
Rachel Reeds (34:28):
A magic wand. It can do anything. Yeah. So, I
mean, I would ditch the binaryabout an academic and a
professional, and think aboutstructuring an entire, the
higher entire, HE sector aroundmuch more agile, so that we
could draw strengths frompeople, so people could have
predominantly more in theprofessional space, or
(34:49):
predominantly more in teaching,learning space. But there is far
too much lost in the inbetweenand in those binaries that that
could really make it the mostwonderful sector. And when you
see what's happening inAustralia in terms of the way
they. The theprofessionalization of higher
education professionals isabout, I don't know, 10-20 years
ahead of in the UK. OneAustralian university just
appointed their first vicechancellor, female vice
(35:12):
chancellor that came through aprofessional route. Not
something you can even envisagehappening in the UK. I can't
even imagine there being aprofessional services Vice
Chancellor, let alone a femaleone. It. It's really distant
from what we can think about.And I would ditch the league
tables,
Sarah McLusky (35:29):
Yeah
Rachel Reeds (35:30):
and it would, it would all be about distance
traveled, because the entireleague tables would then be
inverted, because the applicantsthat I work with come in with
very small aspirations and lifechances, and the what they go
out with is so much more of ajourney than what you know a 3
As student from a grammar schoolcomes in with and goes out with,
(35:52):
the distance traveled and theimpact on their life is so much
more substantial. So we I wouldinvert them all together, but
also I would reverse some of thenarrowing of academic divisions.
So even my masters was ininterdisciplinary space, and I
did a module in the Departmentof History, and I got my my
(36:16):
assignment for that downgradedby the external examiner because
there was too much theory in it.And I thought, Well, that's all.
That's what's wrong with yourdiscipline, sir. But anyway,
didn't say that totally, but itmade me, you know what these
they're so artificial, all ofthese boundaries. So I would,
yeah, disrupt them all togetherand think about more as
(36:37):
assemblages of expertise, ratherthan divisions, departments,
schools and boundaries in thesame way,
Sarah McLusky (36:44):
Nice. I like the idea of that vision for the
future. Fantastic. Well, I thinkwe should think about wrapping
up our conversation, but justremind people again, the name of
your book, and we'll put a linkin the show notes where they can
find it.
Rachel Reeds (37:00):
Yeah, it's Surviving and Thriving in Higher
Education Professional ServicesA Guide to Success, which makes
it sound even moredistinguished. It's basically a
guide to, it's a call to actionto stop waiting for unicorn to
land in your lap and that no oneis going to hand you career
opportunities that younecessarily might be waiting
for. You have to get up, go anddo them for yourself. It's all
(37:22):
things that you can do foryourself, to take the reins and
to be bold and speak up.
Sarah McLusky (37:26):
That's a fantastic message. And where can
people track you down?
Rachel Reeds (37:30):
I'm always talking too much on LinkedIn, so I'm
quite keen to engage there. ButI also have a website which is
just my name, rachelreeds.co.uk,which has got my contact details
of someone wants to contact andI've committed myself for 2025
to do like a monthly freewebinar and workshop on
different sort of skills andthings, because CPD so hard to
(37:51):
access. So I like doing anythingwhere I can talk and use a few
unicorns or astronauts orsomething fun. I like a theme.
Sarah McLusky (37:59):
Excellent and well, as I say, we'll put links
to all of those things in theshow notes. So thank you so much
Rachel for coming along.
Rachel Reeds (38:06):
Thank you
Sarah McLusky (38:11):
Thanks for listening to Research Adjacent.
If you're listening in a podcastapp, please check your
subscribed and then use thelinks in the episode description
to find full show notes andfollow the podcast on LinkedIn
or Instagram. You can also findall the links and other episodes
at www.researchadjacent.com.Research Adjacent is presented
(38:32):
and produced by Sarah McLusky,and the theme music is by Lemon
Music Studios on Pixabay. Andyou, yes you, get a big gold
star for listening right to theend. See you next time.
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