Research Adjacent meets Papa PhD (Episode 68)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Mendes (00:01):
And I thought, if I share these stories people who
are in this doubt, in this fogof the end of the PhD, not
knowing what comes after, andbeing anxious, there's nothing
better than hearing the story ofsomeone who navigated that and
actually came out on the otherside, happy and is fulfilled.
The PhD three letters that arethe same around the world, but

(00:21):
no PhD as a person and as a jobcandidate is like the next one.

Sarah McLusky (00:28):
These research adjacent jobs make a phenomenal
contribution to researchactually happening and being
successful and getting up in theworld and having an impact, but
they don't get credit. And Ithought, what can I do to help
shine a spotlight on thesepeople and the incredible work

(00:48):
that they do? And that's whatled me to start the Research
Adjacent podcast.
Hello there. I'm Sarah McLusky,and this is Research Adjacent.
Each episode, I talk to amazingresearch-adjacent professionals
about what they do and why itmakes a difference. Keep

(01:08):
listening to find out why wethink the research adjacent
space is where the real magichappens.
Welcome to a very specialepisode of Research Adjacent.
Today is a double bill incollaboration with the Papa PhD
Beyond the Thesis podcast. Firstup, you're going to hear me
interviewing David Mendes, akaPapa PhD, and then stay tuned

(01:31):
for David interviewing me forthe Papa PhD podcast. The same
episode is going out on theBeyond the Thesis feed as well,
with the order reversed. So ifyou are really keen, you can
listen to both. So first up,you'll hear David sharing his
career journey and the storybehind the Papa PhD podcast.
David is much further on in hispodcasting journey, and has 300

(01:51):
episodes in the bag, some inEnglish and some in French, but
the story behind both ourpodcasts is similar. David
started his podcast in 2019 as away to offer support and
inspiration to PhD graduatesnavigating the transition into
work, and like me, he also has aday job. His is as a freelance
medical writer and translator.Alongside podcasting, we talk

(02:15):
about the power of networking,how the podcast has helped him
become more confident andoutgoing, and why the transition
from PhD to work can be sochallenging and emotional for
everybody.
And wait there's more. Hangaround to the end of my
conversation with David to hearthe flip side. The tables are
turned, and David becomes theinterviewer and I become the
interviewee. I tell David allabout my post PhD journey, why I

(02:39):
started the Research Adjacentpodcast and my advice for PhD
graduates exploring the wideworld of research-adjacent job
opportunities. You won't besurprised to hear me say that
one of my top tips is to narrowdown the options by taking the
research adjacent careers quizat researchadjacent.com/quiz,
and then using the results toexplore the research adjacent

(03:00):
podcast back catalog, but don'tgo there just yet for now,
listen on here. First up isDavid story.
Welcome along to the ResearchAdjacent podcast, David. It's
fantastic to have you here. Iwonder if we could begin by
hearing a bit about who you areand what you do.

So my name is David Mendes. One of the reasons
I'm here today is because bothof us are academic ecosystem
podcasters. I've been now almostfor six years running the Beyond
the Thesis with Papa PhDpodcast. On that side of things,
I'm part of this great communityof people who are trying to give

(03:41):
back to the academic community.We've been part of it. We went
through graduate school, andwe're trying to share whatever
we have. You know, we have donelearned in our post academic or
post PhD journey, sometimesacademic too. For me, it's
really been about hearing - I'vedone almost 300 interviews with

(04:02):
people such as you, but a lot ofother people - about their post
PhD journey, and it's aboutgetting young researchers to
tune up a little bit how theytell the story of what they did,
so that it allows them to havequicker and better outcomes

(04:23):
professionally after they getthe degree, be it to become a
professor, but we know that's1/5 of people who can go that
path, but especially the otherones who need to transition to
different professionalecosystems where they'll have to
advocate for themselves andlearn a new culture, a new
language, etc. So it's trying tohelp them, to mentor them and

(04:46):
coach them to do that. Then theother side of what I do, it has
to do with what I've doneprofessionally, even before
starting the podcast, and thathas been so the space where I've
been developing my work has beenmedical communication, so
medical writing and translationand always in the scientific

(05:07):
medical domain. And if we go alittle bit back, my PhD was in
cell biology. I have a PhD fromthe University of Coimbra in
Portugal. The lab work was alldone here in Montreal, where I
ended up staying at the MontrealNeurological Institute and
before that, so I did myundergrad and Master's in

(05:27):
Portugal in genetics andmicrobiology. My path was not
linear. I didn't go straightfrom the Master's to the PhD.
It's interesting to look backand make sense of how things
happened, even though a lot ofthem were serendipitous.

Yeah that's one of the things I love most about
this podcast is often peoplecomment on that, that is, I'm
giving them an opportunity toalmost look back and make sense,
yes, the path that they've goneon. So a PhD in cell biology,
then you got, I mean, I'mimagining it wasn't straight
into doing this medicalcommunications work. How did
that come about? Why was that anarea that interested you?

That's a great question, because these days, I
have been talking directly tograduate students a lot about
networking and the importance ofit for them, even while they are
in graduate school. And when Ifinished and in my presentation,
I show this kind of image. Idon't know if you've been in a
if you've been to, like,cornfield maze. I don't know if

Yes I know what you mean. They sometimes call
them a maize maze here,

Amazing. Yeah maize squared. So I had been to
one in the Fall. All the cornwas brown and kind of gloomy in
a certain way, kind ofHalloweeny, Halloween esque. And
I filmed that. And I actually, Iused it in my presentation,
because it kind of looks like alittle bit scary and lost. And I

(06:48):
was lost. I hadn't built up anysocial capital outside my close
network of people in the lab,maybe the institute, but no
further than that. And then myfriends, family, etc. And
actually my first job while Iwas floundering to understand
what was going to happenactually came through friends
and family. So the mother in lawof my partner's friend, actually

(07:13):
needed people with my profile todo distance education tutoring
for for people who needed tokind of complement their
secondary school curriculumwith, I don't know, chemistry,
physics. It was always sciencerelated. It's people who wanted
to do medical degrees, not MD,but nursing or something related

(07:35):
more to health,

Allied health stuff.

Yeah. And so I did this almost a year, not full
time, something I had donebefore, something I enjoyed. But
the thing is, this was not afull time job. But the cool
thing about this story was itcame totally out of the blue. My
partner says, Hey, by the way,and my friend says that her
mother in law needs someone likeyou. I was like, Okay, that's
interesting. So the point ofthat story is that, yeah, when

(08:00):
we talk of networking, it oftenscares people, because, no, I
have to go buy a suit and go tothis event. And sometimes
networking happens organicallyin the network that you already
have that's not even related toacademia, because you never know
whether this person knowssomeone who might actually have
an opportunity for you. So thatwas the first job. But because

(08:22):
it didn't, you know, it ended upnot filling up my schedule. I
kept looking, and then I wasmore like intentional. And I
went back to my Institute, whereI had done the lab there, I
noticed some people weren'tthere anymore. And I started
asking, Where are they? Andthinking, Oh, they probably
masters, went to PhD, or PhD,went to postdoc, and two of them

(08:43):
had gone to work in this domainthat I had never heard of, which
was called medical writing. Andso then it was really just a
question of, okay, well, I'm nota very extroverted person, but I
still said, you know, thissounds interesting. I've always
liked languages communicatingscience is always something was

(09:04):
part of the process of graduateschool that I always liked. I
particularly liked creatingfigures. But anyway, there was
something there that piqued mycuriosity. And then talking with
these two people who actuallywere at the same employer, I
said, Okay, this has potential.And they said, if you are
interested, there's a kind of aninternal referral program. Let's

(09:28):
look at your CV, tailor it, andI can pass it on. And the rest
is, yeah, and then I actuallyspent almost five years at that
company going from junior tosenior medical writer.

Yeah it's this it's, as you say, it's amazing
how sometimes just theseconnections and networks and
people that you know, justopportunities come up, and
however much you plan out yourcareer, however much you think
you know where you're going togo, there's always something
that comes up just out of leftfield and you just go all right.
Yeah, let's do that. I mean,there's people I've interviewed

(10:02):
on the podcast, you know, who'veended up in a certain career
just because there was a bossthat went in that direction. So
they looked at what employersthere were along that bus route.
You know, when that sort ofthing, you just end up where you
end up. It's fascinating, but,but, yeah, as you say about
networking, I've had Jeni Smith,previous guest on this podcast,
a couple of episodes that areworth going back to if people

(10:24):
are interested on networking.She's got some fantastic tips
there about how, as you say,it's not about going to some
stuffy event, and, you know,making awkward conversation.
There's lots of different waysof approaching networking. So
you find yourself in thismedical writing field getting
really established there. Whatwas it that made you want to

(10:46):
come back and start sharingstories of people in their post
PhD journey? What made you wantto start the podcast?

What was actually the starting point of this
reflection of that led tostarting beyond the thesis in
2019 once I was kind of like yousaid, starting to be established
in that medical writing space. Istarted being invited here in
Montreal to different careerevents, career panels, and then

(11:18):
hearing the questions of currentgraduate students like, and this
would be like, three years aftermy PhD, 5, 10 years after my
PhD, and and understanding thatsome of the issues that I had
had by the end of my PhD, theend was like, not super pleasant

(11:40):
in different ways, like, like,monetary wise, and anyway, there
were different things, liketechnical difficulties in my
experiment that led me to, youknow, to have a tough time of
the last year or so, and thenalso to be writing while I was,
while I was doing that tutoringwork that I mentioned, etc, and
then defending eventually after.But so two things happened.

(12:05):
First, I understood, okay, thesethings that I was like putting
on myself or blaming myself forat the end of my PhD, that you
know, and that feeling of okay Igot into the PhD because I
wanted to teach. I got into thePhD, because I love being in the
lab and doing research, and nowI'm leaving academia, and

(12:26):
there's a feeling of maybefailure to a certain extent that
I had and thought belonged justto me, and also of leaving a
tribe that you were working tobe part of all these years. And
when you get to the PhD, it'sbeen a bunch of years, and but
seeing that, the doubts, thedifficulties that I had, were

(12:50):
then echoed by one to 10, 20people each time I was going to
a career event. First, maybekind of rethink the the self
blame mindset that I was in, andtakes kind of some distance from
it. That's where the genesis ofthe idea of the podcast comes

(13:11):
eventually, at a certain moment,I had this opportunity. I had
the material because I had agood mic. I had material to do
that, and I had friends from thelab who were now not also not
going for postdocs, but startingtheir startups or being science
communicators. And I thought, ifI share these stories people who

(13:33):
are in this doubt, in this fogof the end of the PhD, not
knowing what comes after, andbeing anxious, there's nothing
better than hearing the story ofsomeone who navigated that and
actually came out on the otherside happy and is fulfilled.
There's nothing better than thatto help lower this anxiety and
these negative feelings. And soyeah, that was it. In 2019 I had

(13:56):
more time at a certain period Isaw and I think it was a it was
an article on Facebook sayingwhy you should start your
podcast in 2019 and, you know,think things align. I had this
people, this, this community Iwanted to help. I had this idea
of what could help. And I alsohad the material, the gear to

(14:17):
actually start something, apodcast that could bring that
message out to people, andthat's how it was born. I never
thought I'd be like behind a micin front of a camera, and here
we are, almost six years later,and more than 300 episodes
later, and I it's something Iyou know, until there are no

(14:38):
more people out there needing tohear these stories, I see myself
continuing to do this, andthere's an aspect that you
mentioned that I also feel it'salso fun sometimes to see how
the guest takes pleasure inrevisiting time that we talk
about, because often theyhaven't thought about it since
then, you know, and they get achance. To take stock of things

(15:01):
and sometimes reframe thingsanyway. It's it's a lot of fun
for me. So while it's fun andwhile it's helping people, I'll
keep on doing it.

Yeah. I mean, I have to say 300 plus episodes is
an amazing achievement, andcertainly, the story behind how
Research Adjacent started isvery similar. It's like, there's
these people I want to help. Iknow some people who I could get
to talk. I know how to makepodcasts. Let's just do it.
That's one of the things aboutpodcasts, isn't it? You can just
get on but, but those thingsthat you were saying about, you

(15:31):
know, coming to do somethingdifferent after your PhD and
starting to think, Oh, does thismake me a failure? Or who am I
if I'm not part of thiscommunity, they come up so often
with people that I speak to,whether it's people who are
currently PhD students, whetherit's people who've moved on,
because some of those feelingscan take a long time to oh yeah
process as well. So it is reallyvaluable to share those stories

(15:55):
and to help to give people, asyou say, different people
resonate with different stories.So having all these different
examples of people who've donethings and done things a
different way. So as I say, 300plus episodes is very impressive
for us, as we sit on what Ithink this is going to be about
number 70 or something, this onewhen it comes out, for me. So
over that time, whether it'swith the work that you've done

(16:19):
around the medical writing,whether it's around the Papa PhD
podcast, I always like to invitemy guest to tell us about a
couple of really nice examplesof things you've done that
you're really proud of, that youfeel have made a difference.
What would you like to share?

One thing that's changed for me in the last year
or so is that I decided to wellalso, if we go a little bit
back, there was COVID. So whatI'm gonna say was not possible,
but because I'm an introvert, Iwasn't going to in person events
and accepting invitations likethat so much. And since the last

(16:54):
year and a half, two years, I'vestarted to do so. I say it
because from my conversationswith graduate students
introversion or awkwardness insocial situations is, you know,
there's a bunch of them who cometo me with with those types of
questions and and I just want tosay that that decision of, if

(17:15):
there's someone interesting, I'mgonna go introduce myself and
show my interest or appreciationfor what they shared. It really
has been a game changer for mein terms of opportunities, of
collaboration, of projects thathave come up from that. And I
know it's not exactly what youwere asking for, but if we're

(17:37):
thinking of inspiring the peoplewho are listening, if you're not
going and meeting people outthere, you may not suspect you
know what sort of unexpectedresults and positive impact on
your professional, academic andpersonal life may come from that

(18:00):
and and so one of the things isthat is I have, and, of course,
I think, actually, I'm sure thathaving done this exercise of
podcasting and be of meetingpeople almost weekly who are who
I don't Know and with whom Ihave an hour of conversation has

(18:24):
helped me kind of develop orstrengthen that muscle of
extroversion. There's really abefore and after, allowing
myself and pushing myself to goout and meet people, and it's
really had like, like tangibleimpact on what beyond the thesis
is today, but also, you knowwhat help and what contribution

(18:49):
I'm actually able to bringdirectly to graduate students
here in Montreal or Quebec City,it's really been because of this
kind of pushing myself out of mycomfort zone. So I think it's
not exactly

You say that's not answering the question, but
I think it's definitelysomething to be proud of. Yeah,
if it's clearly something thatyou've done that for you was
challenging, and it's had these,these benefits for yourself and
for other people, then I thinkthat's a fantastic example of
something to be proud of. And,yeah, it's interesting. I do
often say that podcasting isprobably the most intense form

(19:24):
of networking I've ever done,because it is, yeah, let's just
invite somebody to come and sitin a room with me for an hour
and tell me their life story.Yeah, it's a pretty good way to
get to know people. So yeah, ifyou need to do more networking,
start a podcast or,

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And podcast is a way
to go, but it could take otherforms. It can be get together
with your colleagues, you're,let's say, in graduate school,
and start a seminar series whereyou invite alumni.

Yeah, yeah, that's it. It just gives you
that reason to reach out tothese people that you want to
build a relationship with,

reason and platform also,

yeah, great examples. I think one thing that
I would love to ask you about isnow you know you've spoken to
not just all the people thatyou've had as guests on your
podcast, but as you say, you nowgo out and give talks and give
advice to students who arecurrently in that position. What
are some of the main piecesadvice that come up, whether

(20:22):
it's from your guests or whetherit's the sorts of things you
know, distill and share withpeople. What advice would you
give to people who are justeither coming to the end of
their PhD or coming out theother side?

I'm going to start with a fairly simple one and
frequent which is the questionthat comes up is, should I be on
LinkedIn? And how pretty shouldmy profile be on LinkedIn? And I
would say you'd be surprised howmany people from the academic
community are on LinkedIn,academic, academic-adjacent, you

(20:53):
know, etc, people who have doneresearch and are now either in
academia, industry orgovernment, they are on
LinkedIn, it's easy to to learnabout them just by seeing their
profiles, etc, also seeing whatthey post, but then to interact
with them, react to what theypost, maybe add some value. So
my answer to the first questionis, you should be on LinkedIn?

(21:16):
Yes, because the barrier toentry is very low, but you know,
you should try to, you know thislittle things don't leave the
little gray, kind of nondescriptimage for your persona or your
icon. If you need to take aselfie and put it there, at
least have your face there.

My LinkedIn profile for the last three years
has been a selfie. So, yeah,selfies are OK.

They're okay. They're okay. It's just so
that's one being on LinkedIn.And then, yeah, no pressure. So
be there, be try to beauthentic, try to not be too
academic in the way you you useit. Learn how to change that the
way of like presenting whatyourself, your experience, etc,
is, of course, there's, there'scontent out there that kind of

(22:00):
teaches you on YouTube, etc, butsee whichever profiles inspire
you and see, you know, take fromeach one something that you find
cool and use it on yours in yourown way. That's, that's one of
the big ones. The other one thatthat's the larger question,
let's say, because the answer isnot straightforward, is how? How

(22:23):
do I, as a recent PhD positionmyself in the job market so that
I'm attractive to employers, andit comes in different forms. It
can be. How Do You Know What doemployers seek? Are there jobs
for PhDs out there? What areemployers looking for in PhDs?

(22:44):
And that's a more complexquestion, of course, because not
employers are looking for PhDsin some domains. Of course, if
you did a PhD in pharmacology ordifferent biochemistry, going to
R&D in a pharma company is quitestraightforward. The the also
the scientist in a startup, isalso straightforward. But then

(23:07):
there's a host of ecosystems inthe job market where there's no
straight line, you know, there'sand there's no culture or habit
of hiring PhDs. When you meetthat person, they look at your
CV, then they'll say, so you'vedone a PhD. Why are you here?
And it gets emotionallycomplicated, because here you

(23:30):
are with the highest academicdegree that you can get.
Thinking now all the doors openand there's this job posting
that you find interesting, butnow the person in front of you
may say something like you maybe overqualified, or I don't
know that I can pay what youwant given your degree, I don't
know that we can fulfill yoursalary expectations. The PhD,

(23:54):
it's three letters that are thesame around the world, the world
PhD, but no PhD as a person andas a job candidate is like the
next one. We all have differentprojects. It's not easy for
employers who haven't alreadyfound, oh, PhDs actually love
having them in my team for thisor that aspect. It's hard for
them to understand how they'regoing to fit you in. It falls

(24:16):
onto us to learn how to tell thestory of what we did in a way
that they'll see, okay, Iunderstand, and actually I see
how you fit, but, and that's whyI talk about strategic
storytelling. When we come outof graduate school, if we
haven't done any like ThreeMinute Thesis type things, and

(24:37):
haven't dipped our toe in thelake of science communication,
we tend to be very cold in theway we present our journey,
because it's very data driven.It's very, you know, it's the
way you do in the scienceconference, because you need to
actually let the data speak forthemselves. But it's not the
same when you leave academia.

Ive certainly done a lot of recruitment. Yeah,
can really resonate. And peoplewho are fresh out of PhDs or who
haven't quite got their headaround it, they present
themselves that it's all aboutthe qualifications and it's all
about the publications, and thenthat should speak for itself,
and it doesn't. That's somethingwe could do. Well, maybe we will
get into when we turn thetables. But yes, thank you for

(25:22):
that. I think both of thosereally useful piece of pieces of
advice. So yeah, get on LinkedInand think about how to present
yourself and your skills in away that's going to make sense
to employers. So yeah, bothreally useful things. And yeah,
definitely stuff that's come upa lot. So to wrap up this part
of our conversation. If peoplewant to find out more about you,

(25:45):
find the podcast. Find anythingto do with that. Whereabouts
would you send them?

You can go to LinkedIn and look for David,
David Mendes, PhD, or Papa PhDfor the podcast. The website of
the podcast is papaphd.com onthe site, you'll also find links
to Apple podcasts, Android, etc,all the other platforms where
you can listen Spotify. Look forPapa PhD. You'll find the
version just with episodes inFrench and the original Beyond

(26:12):
the Thesis with Papa PhD, whereit's bilingual, there's some
episodes in French and some inEnglish. So for the podcast,
whichever platform you use, plugin Papa PhD or Beyond the
Thesis, and you'll find it,yeah, on Instagram if you're
there and I share some contentthere. The username is
@papaphdpodcast

Fantastic. Well, we'll certainly get the links
and put them in the show notesas well. So thank you so much
for coming along, telling usabout your journey and your
podcast as well. Thank you.
Wait. Don't go just yet. Whetherthis is your first time
listening or your 68th you mightbe wondering exactly who I am

(26:52):
and why I'm doing this. Well,here's your chance to find out a
bit more about me, my careerstory, and why I started this
podcast. Listen on to hear mebeing interviewed by David for
the Papa PhD podcast.

Welcome to this special episode of beyond the
thesis with Papa PhD. This is atwo sided episode, and you'll
see what this means as we talktoday. I have the great pleasure
of having with me Sarah McLuskyof the Research Adjacent
podcast. Sarah McLusky is afreelance consultant, trainer
and facilitator specializing inresearch, events and

(27:30):
communication. Sarah launchedthe Research Adjacent podcast in
2023 and it's a podcastcelebrating all the amazing
people who go into makingresearch successful, not just
researchers. In the podcast,Sarah shares her career stories
and strategies to help peoplethrive in their research
adjacent careers, and she hasbeen herself research adjacent

(27:53):
for over 20 years. She hasworked for universities and
research projects, sciencecenters and museums, learned
societies and educationproviders. Sarah's academic
background is in plant pathologyand biochemistry, but she has
worked across a huge range ofdisciplines, including all the
sciences, plus the arts,humanities and social sciences.

(28:16):
Sarah McLusky, welcome to Beyondthe Thesis with Papa PhD.

Oh, thank you very much for that welcome. It
makes it sound like I've reallybeen round the houses but yeah,
I've been at this stuff for along time now. Thanks for having
me

Yeah, it's my pleasure. So Sarah, Research
Adjacent. I love the name of thepodcast. I'm super happy to have
you here today, because I thinkthis research-adjacent space is
somewhat opaque to a lot ofpeople, especially people just
coming out of graduate school,and the people I have talked

(28:49):
with who are now like inresearch-adjacent jobs, have
kind of found about it, oftenserendipitously or in very
convoluted ways, with a lot ofrandomness and not too much of a
linear path towards it. Youknow, of course, like thinking
of myself, I got into the PhDthinking of teaching and doing

(29:12):
research, and then, you know, noone ever presented me all the
careers that could come afterthe PhD, including this research
adjacent space. Can you talk alittle bit about it and share
how that space caught yourinterest and led you to starting
the podcast?

Yeah, sure. So I think the first thing to say
about it is that if people havenever heard about
research-adjacent space before,partly because I made it up,
it's not a term that, but yeah,I mean, as you've said, you like
you like the name. And it'spartly because I found myself
the name came from I wasorganizing a careers panel and

(29:51):
for for PhD students and postand early career postdocs. And
they wanted people who weredoing jobs that were not in
academia. And so I had to comeup with a name for the careers
panel. And the name I just wasout for a walk one day. It's how
these things happen, isn't it?It kind of popped into my head.
I was like, research adjacentoh, it's good, so we'll call it

(30:15):
that. So I called the careerspanel that. And then actually, I
was just like, this name is toogood. I have to do something
with this name. And it reallyfitted in with a bit of a
passion that I had at the time,which I guess is is kind of
there's a bit of a story there.So I've been doing these jobs
without having a name for themfor about 25 years now. So as

(30:38):
you say, I did do a PhD. I didmy PhD in the late 90s, and I
was one of those people who didI did very well in my undergrad,
and everybody said I should do aPhD. So I did a PhD without
really giving it much thoughtand without really having much
of a career plan in mind. Mysupervisor could probably see I
was never really destined to bean academic, because whilst I

(31:01):
was doing my PhD, I got sent onlots of courses, so to do things
like, you know, media trainingand science writing and things
like that. And the world was alittle bit the world was
slightly different then. And sowhen I came out of my PhD, there
was also the tricky thing that Idid an interdisciplinary PhD
before it was fashionable.They're very fashionable now.

(31:24):
They were not fashionable in the90s. I was also doing a form of
biochemistry, though it'sbiological chemistry really,
which, again, natural productsand things like that, which was
not fashionable in the 90s. Itwas all genetics. So when I came
out with my PhD, I had like thatexperience I think a lot of
people do. I hadn't finishedwriting up. I'd run out of

(31:48):
money. I had to go and get somejobs to keep me ticking along
and wrote my PhD on theweekends. The jobs that came up,
I had done a lot of work incustomer service roles as I was
studying. I had done like a bitof event management stuff for
the Student Union. So I had someof these skills to draw on, and
that combination of kind ofcustomer service, event

(32:10):
management, sciencecommunication, I ended up going
into science centers and workingin science centers, and started
off on, you know, minimum wage,just enough to pay the bills and
get me through whilst I waswriting up my thesis, and at
that point, I still thoughtmaybe I would go and do
something in academia. Butactually, I reached a bit of

(32:32):
crossroads, where in the sameweek, I was offered a fast track
job interview at AstraZeneca, abig biotech company, and I was
offered a full time educationscience communication job. And
for you know, this is how wemake decisions sometimes, and
that the science education jobwas in the north of England. And
I'm from Scotland, if peoplemight be able to tell my accent

(32:56):
might not I'm from Scotland. Thejob was in the north of England.
The biotech company job was inthe south of England, and I
wanted to stay near home, so Itook the education job without
really giving it much thought.Actually, that's still what I'm
doing now, 25 years later, it'sgone through various kind of
guises, but still in that form.And I think what I would say is

(33:20):
so I never originally aspired togo into this kind of work. And
the reason, as you said, thatpeople maybe haven't heard of
it, it's because a lot of thesejobs didn't exist. So a lot of
them are really new. Even 25years ago, when I was coming out
for my PhD, only just then wasscience communication becoming a
job. And at that point, therewere no, there were no masters

(33:43):
courses and things like thatthat there are in it now I was
very lucky in the point that Iwas coming into it is that they
were desperate for anybody whocould do some of this stuff,
because it was exploding. So itgot me a foot in the door at
that point. But a lot of thejobs that there are now, and the
sorts of things that people thathave on guest on research

(34:07):
adjacent, they're jobs that haveon some degree some of them have
existed for a long time, likeresearch management jobs, but
some of them are very recentjobs, like in the UK, there's a
lot of stuff around researchimpact and knowledge exchange.
Those jobs have only reallyexisted for maybe 10 years, and
that will be why people haven'theard of them. And they also,

(34:30):
again, it's that thing that whenpeople are in, and I know you've
talked about this in previousepisodes, when people are in the
academic space, all they seearound them are other academics.
So they don't necessarily getthat sense of what else might be
out here. So really, what led medown to start the research
adjacent podcast was partlybecause I wanted to help people

(34:54):
who were coming out. I wasworking a lot with PhD students
who were coming to the end oftheir studies and were just you.
Were so lost in terms of whatthey wanted to do next, and they
could see that there were nojobs, particularly in the arts
and humanities at that point intime, they could see that there
there was a real shortage ofjobs. And I was on recruitment

(35:17):
panels where we would get, like,50 applicants for one job. And I
wanted to do something whichwould help people like that, and
help them see that they hadoptions, and they were hugely
employable, and that knowledgeof research could be really
valuable in different roles.Sopartly there was that side of
things and that real desire tohelp. The other thing was I had

(35:41):
a little bit of a bee in mybonnet, and that is because
these research-adjacent jobsmake a phenomenal contribution
to research actually happeningand being successful and getting
the world and having an impact,but they don't get credit, and
they don't get their names onpapers, and they don't get
career progression the same way.There's no such thing as like

(36:04):
tenure track or whatever forpeople in these
research-adjacent roles, and sothey're just not getting credit
in the same way. And I thought,what can I do to help shine a
spotlight on these people in theincredible work that they do?
And that's what led me to startthe Research Adjacent podcast.

it's funny how it kind of aligns with the
evolution, also, of the of thespace, because a lot of these
things now, like said sciencecommunication or or even science
illustration, now that, youknow, there's masters courses
around that in my conversationson and off the podcast with
people who are are post PhD anddoing different things. I have

(36:45):
talked with people in theuniversity contributing to, like
you said, the research indifferent ways. So some of them
helping the researchers withtheir grant writing, some of
them with getting the scienceand the discoveries to go
outside the walls of theuniversity and to get talked

(37:05):
about on in news or on differentplatforms. And also, there's
people who are working inpolicy, you know, who can be at
the level of university, butalso, you know, someone in the
states who's actually working atthe federal level, in terms of
university policy, and these areall people who love staying

(37:28):
abreast of what's happening inresearch, but who no longer are
at the lab. And while I was ingraduate school, like you said,
I never heard of them. Yeah, forme, it was the graduate
students, the lab technicians,the postdocs, the PI and that's
what makes University and then Idiscover that there's a host of

(37:51):
people who are really workingtheir ass off to get the grants
funded. So a host of people whoare passionate about science,
passionate about research, butwho chose to not go the way of
actually being a PI and being aresearcher, etc, but to
contribute in a different way?And so can you please, for the

(38:13):
people who are listening and whothink, oh, this actually could
be interesting for me, because Ido want to stay close to
academia, you mentioned researchmanagers, and you mentioned
science communication offices.What other job descriptions or
job names that people don't knowabout that could be really good

Yeah, there's so much out there. And I think even
fit?
when I started the podcast, Idon't think I quite got my head
around how much was out there. Itend to think of these roles in
two camps. There's the jobs thatare involved in making research
happen. So that might be theresearch managers and
administrators, that might bepeople who work on grant funding

(38:55):
and things like that. It mighteven be people who do support
roles like technicians orlooking after people who work in
the library, people who aredoing software, you know, things
like that, and looking afterhealth and safety, you know, all
that sort of stuff that helpsthe research to get done on that
kind of practical role, thatsort of internal sense. And then

(39:19):
there's all the roles which areabout taking research out into
the world, and that includes thecommunication type roles that
we've talked about, which iscertainly the route I started
through, and I know that's theroute that you've come through
as well. But there are policyjobs, as you've mentioned, there

(39:39):
are people who work in what inthe UK we call impact, but that
can be around buildingpartnerships with people who are
outside of the researchorganization. It's not just
about universities as well. Andso there's people are involved
in doing partnerships. Theremight be people helping
industrial relationships foruniversities, spin out companies

(40:02):
and startups and things likethat. So there's all those
people that are involved inmaking research happen. And I
mean, I've had people in thepodcast, things like people who
are lawyers, who work onintellectual property, people
who are exhibition designers whomake exhibitions that are based
on research. I've had people whowork in archives and museums.

(40:25):
You know, just the range ofroles is absolutely vast, and
there's something for everybodydepending on what it is that
they're interested in. And then,as I say, the other thing that's
really interesting as well isthat these jobs are not just in
universities, so they are alsoin places like government so as

(40:45):
you said, the kind of policy,jobs, library, Information
Services, all that kind ofstuff. In the UK, we've got some
civil service researchorganizations. There's places
like what we call Defra, butit's like agriculture agencies
and environment agencies andthings like that. There's people
working there. There arecharities, particularly medical

(41:08):
charities, that have peopleinvolved in research,
communication type roles, alsoin funding roles, you know, all
sorts of stuff. So museums,local councils, it's it's not
just about higher education, andI think that's another thing
that's really interesting. Andthe thing about all these roles
is that having an understandingof the research and

(41:30):
understanding of the process ofhow research works can be
really, really helpful. It's byno means essential. And I would
say that about 50% of the peoplethat I interview on my podcast
don't have PhDs, but about 50%of them do, and having that
knowledge of research can helpyou to understand the process
and get up to speed veryquickly. And I've often seen

(41:53):
people with PhDs get promotedvery quickly in these roles,
even if they have to start kindof at the entry level, if it's
something that's a bit new tothem. So yeah, that's an
overview of everything that'sout there.

Yeah, that's amazing. And I was gonna ask you
a question that you ended upanswering, which was, where do
PhDs fit, and why you just saidit, but now you just finished
with something that is it's ahard pill to swallow for people,
but it's very important, whichis, because there is no straight

(42:29):
path. Maybe in 10, 20, 30 yearsfrom now, there'll be more like
bridges built from the PhD tospecific spaces in the different
ecosystems. But today, becausethese bridges don't happen you
as a PhD, need to advocate foryourself. You need to learn how
to talk with these people. Mytake is that the best way to

(42:50):
learn is to before you'relooking for a job, talk with
people who are doing thosethings and learn and hear how
they talk and hear what termsthey use. But today, you know,
especially if you're going intoa position that's brand new,
maybe a position where or aplace where PhDs are not
traditionally hired, yeah, oneother thing that will happen is

(43:15):
that the the pay for that firstjob, yeah, will probably not
reach what you had envisionedfor yourself at the end of the
degree, you know, thinking, nowI have this degree, it's the
best degree, so now I can makethis much per year. And yeah,

(43:35):
and you, and you mentioned thisquestion, and like I said, it's
often depending on thepersonality of the candidates,
it can be a hard pill to swallowof starting at an entry level
and then evolving. Do you havemore reflections to navigate
that and how to have thoseconversations in a way that

(43:56):
actually leads you to a goodoutcome and to not exclude
yourself? Because what people dois like, Oh, this is too low.
And then they they're maybelosing a great opportunity,
because they would then evolvequickly.

Yes, I think that's it. So, yeah, it can be,
as you say, a bitter pill toswallow. But if you're looking
at with looking at these things,you need to look at it, even
though there might be researchin the job title. So say it's
like a research manager job,just because it's got research
manager job and you might knowthe research bit, that doesn't

(44:30):
mean you know the manager bit.And I think it's really
important to separate thosethings and recognize that PhD
students, PhD graduates, havegot incredible transferable
skills, but you need to learnhow to transfer them, and you
need to learn how to take thoseskills and use them in a
different setting. And sometimesI would say to people is like,

(44:51):
which of these things would youprefer hanging around for a
year, applying for jobs and notgetting anywhere, or maybe going
into a job at a lower grade butthat you can get experience, you
can get to know people, you canget a foot in the door, and you
will get promoted quickly. Andcertainly, when I finished my
PhD, I couldn't afford not to,so my first jobs out of my PhD

(45:14):
were pretty much minimum wage,but I got foot in the door. I
got experience. I got promotedvery quickly, and so sometimes
swallowing your pride going intoit, this advice I give with
anything PhD graduates, one ofthe main skills you've got is
curiosity, because that's whatled you into doing a PhD in the

(45:36):
first place. And I think it'salways encouraging people of how
you can approach your careerpath with a bit of curiosity,
and think about what can I learnin any situation. I did
voluntary work as well to getexperience when I was coming out
of my PhD, you can learnsomething from every opportunity

(45:58):
if you go into it with an openmind. But I always will counsel
people, you probably will haveto start at a lower level, but
you probably get promotedquickly, but you can get
promoted to kind of similarlevels. So to give, just to keep
it in the university, if that'swhat familiar to people, a
project manager role likeresearch project manager will
probably be paid about the sameas a research assistant, then a

(46:21):
research manager is probablysimilar to an assistant
professor, and then once you canget up to kind of, you know,
heads of units and things likethat, and then you'll be
starting to get paid at the samelevel as a professor. So there's
opportunities. That doesn't meanthat you're destined to be on
minimum wage forever, but youhave to go through the process
and demonstrate your skills. Andit's because I know this is

(46:44):
something you talk about a loton your podcast as well, is I
have had people I've done a lotof recruitment. I've been on a
lot of recruitment panels, andyou get people who apply with a
PhD, just assuming that the PhDis enough and that I'm somehow
gonna know, you know, look, Imanaged a PhD project, so
therefore I can manage thisproject, but it's, it's up to

(47:04):
you, up to the candidate, toshow that, to demonstrate, to
think about the examples of howthey can demonstrate their
project management skills. Andit's not as straightforward as
just, you know, here's my PhDcertificate. Give me a job. It's
still thinking about how youtransfer those skills over, and
really thinking about thosetransferable skills is how

(47:25):
people will find the right nichefor them. Because, as I said,
this is a huge area of workwhere having the research
knowledge is really valuable,but you might have amazing
communication skills might beyour special thing. So you might
look at the researchcommunication side of things. It
may be that you're great on thefinancial side of things. So

(47:48):
maybe you look at researchfunding or finance management.
It may be that you're reallygood at connecting people and
building partnerships. So thenyou think, right, I'm going to
look at knowledge exchange rolesand policy roles where there's
lots of partnership working. SoI think it's really important to
do a bit of an inventory oflike, what am I really good at?

(48:10):
A, what am I really good at? AndB, what do I really enjoy?
Beyond just this subject matterthat you've been studying for
the last 3, 4 5, years.

Yeah and I'd say, once you've done that work of
telling all of that to try tofind one or two stories from
your graduate school journeythat illustrate that, because
some people, you'll just saythat, and it'll still not be
enough, they'll want to seeokay, but what does that look
like in real life? You have astory to illustrate that. That's

(48:41):
the next step. Is look back andthink, How can I demonstrate
that I'm really good atconnecting people? You know, if
you want to talk about atransferable skill, you cannot
just name it. You need toillustrate it through story,
some narrative and so, oh well,actually. So when I was in my
postdoc, I had this budget withwhich I had objectives. I ended

(49:04):
up reaching my objective,objectives at 70% budget, do
some more effort in makingtangible how you did those
things that you're saying youdid.

There is an episode on my podcast where I
talk about this, about how whenyou go for research adjacent
jobs, often you're being scoredso often your application is
being literally marked out ofwhatever depending on what
they're looking for. And that'sexactly what they look like. So
it might be that there is a linein job description that says

(49:40):
excellent communication skills.If you just say, I have
excellent communication skills,that might get you like a one,
but what's going to get you afive is if you say, when I was
doing my PhD, I organized anoutreach project for some local
school children, and we didthese things and this was the

(50:00):
outcome of doing that, and thenbe like, oh, yeah, actually,
they've demonstrated theircommunication skills there, you
know? And then you would get ahigher mark if you give that
example of how you've done itand whether you need it for the
job application or whether youneed it for the interview when
you go for research adjacentjobs, it's all about so it's all
about give an example of a timewhen you have helped to be part

(50:25):
of a team to make somethinghappen. Give an example of a
time when you've dealt with areally challenging situation,
and it's looking for thosereally concrete examples.
Nobody, once you get, you know,maybe on the list it might say,
Oh, you need a degree, but thatwould just be like, tick,
whatever. Then nobody's going toask about your qualifications.
Again, they're not interested.They don't particularly want to

(50:46):
hear about your research either,unless you can tell again, a
really compelling story abouthow you demonstrated some of
these skills through theresearch, or through how you
dealt with a challengingsituation that came up during
the research. So that'sincredibly important to do that

And it applies to any well, first, I would say
it's important even for peoplein academia, but it gets more
and more important because ofthe distance and the culture
mismatch. The less adjacent youare, you know, the more you go
into industry, etc, yeah, youreally need to do more of that
work, definitely, yeah, anddon't do more effort retelling

(51:22):
or learning how to tell thatstory. Yeah, Sarah, we have a
few minutes left. I have onemore question for you. I know of
your podcast, but people who arelistening maybe don't, so I'd
really like you to take a coupleof minutes saying where people
can find you, be it on LinkedIn,etc, but also your podcast and
all the other places you're atso that they can explore

(51:44):
research adjacent and learn moreabout you and and you know what,
what motivates you, but alsowhat they can learn from you and
how you can help them, if, ifthey

Yeach absolutely. So yeah, the the podcast is
Research Adjacent, you'll findit on any podcast app. If you
just search Research Adjacent,you will find it. The website is
researchadjacent.com and that'swhere you will find all the back
back catalog and things likethat. And now the back catalog
is getting quite sizable sothere is a little quiz on the

(52:15):
website as well, which is, ifyou go to
researchadjacent.com/quiz, andyou can answer some questions
about things like yourtransferable skills, what you're
interested in, and it will giveyou some suggestions of certain
podcasts that might beinteresting for you. And it also
will help to potentially narrowdown the areas of research
adjacent work that you might beinterested in. So that's a

(52:37):
really good place to go andcheck out if people are just not
sure where to start, it's all abit much. All of the people who
have guested on the podcast willbe really happy when you say
about reaching out to peoplewho've done it before everybody
who's been on the podcast willbe really happy for people to
get in touch with them, askquestions about their job and
find out a bit more. So if thereis something that piques your

(52:58):
interest, then definitely go andconnect with them. And the same
goes for me as well. I'm reallyhappy to help people in any way
I can. The main place I hang outis on LinkedIn, so it's Sarah
McLusky. The main tricky thingis to get the right spelling of
my surname, which is m, c, l, u,s, k, y, and then you will track
me down on LinkedIn and come andconnect and say hello there.

(53:22):
That would be fantastic.

So with all your experience in the space and with
the podcast and theseconversations, I'm always
interested in my guestsreflections about key
transferable skills for theyears to come, your job didn't
exist when you started it at theyou know, back then, when you
finish a PhD, and again, today,people who are in graduate

(53:45):
school very probably the exactjob they're gonna do in three,
four or five years is notsomething that exists yet in
that complete and complete form.Maybe there's something that's
kind of emerging towards that,but so also key or important or
valued, transferable skills alsoevolve.

Definitely, there's a lot of people in the
research adjacent world at themoment a little bit nervous
about AI, particularly when itcomes to things like, you know,
writing and so on. Maybe I'm indenial, but I'm not hugely
worried about it. But as yousay, thinking about from that
point of view is, what are theskills that are going to endure?
And I think the main things, Iwould say, particularly from

(54:29):
life and research adjacent -curiosity, is the number one
thing, and it relates to otherthings like growth mindset and
so on, but always trying to gointo a situation and just
thinking, what can I learn here?And even when it's a challenging
situation, I'm just thinkingabout, what's the lesson? What

(54:49):
can I learn? What can I get outof it? So I think that is an
incredibly valuable skill tocultivate, also just
flexibility, which I think isreally important a lot. People
in the research adjacent worlddo jobs where they do a bit of
everything. So being willing toget stuck in give it a go, being
flexible, being willing to maybetry something and have it not

(55:12):
work out the first time, butjust giving it a go. As you
said, we both started podcastspretty much that way, just like,
yeah, let's see what we canlearn from it. Let's just give
it a go and see what happensthat we'll learn as we go. So I
think that curiosity andflexibility are probably the
biggest ones. A huge number ofresearch adjacent roles are
really about people. So theymight, on the surface, be about

(55:35):
doing grant applications orsomething like that, but at the
end of the day, it's about howdo you convince somebody? How do
you tell a story that'scompelling to another person?
How do you help to supportsomebody through that journey?
How do you build thosepartnerships that are going to
be essential, and I think thoseinterpersonal skills are

(55:55):
incredibly important, becausealso, as we do see this increase
in AI, what's going to be moreand more important at work is
people and how we interact witheach other. So I think that
that's the other one that Iwould say is really important.

I love it. So curiosity, flexibility and
people, interpersonal skills. Ilove these three. I think
they're a great way to closethis conversation, to end this
part of the interview, Sarah,thank you so much. It's been
great. I love your story. I lovethe way you put your energy into
your work, and the passion isclear. And I really appreciate

(56:31):
having had the opportunity tochat with you in this special
two sided episode.

Yeah thank you so much. It's been an honor. It's
been really fun. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to ResearchAdjacent. If you're listening in
a podcast app, please checkyou're subscribed and then use
the links in the episodedescription to find full show
notes and follow the podcast onLinkedIn or Instagram. You can

(56:59):
also find all the links andother episodes at
www.researchadjacent.com.Research Adjacent is presented
and produced by Sarah McLusky,and the theme music is by Lemon
Music studios on Pixabay. Andyou, yesyou, get a big gold star
for listening right to the end,see you next time.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Research Adjacent meets Papa PhD (Episode 68)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

Research Adjacent meets Papa PhD (Episode 68)

On Purpose with Jay Shetty