Rosalind Gill, Policy Director (Episode 66)

Episode Transcript
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Rosalind Gill (00:01):
You can have the best evidence base to support
your policy recommendation inthe world, but if it doesn't
have the support and the backingof those who are actually going
to be delivering it, it's veryunlikely to get traction, and
it's very unlikely to besuccessful. I think some of my
proudest achievements areactually more about where we've
achieved a change inperspective, because that has a

(00:21):
very enduring impact.

Sarah McLusky (00:25):
Hello there. I'm Sarah McLusky, and this is
Research Adjacent. Each episode,I talk to amazing research
adjacent professionals aboutwhat they do and why it makes a
difference. Keep listening tofind out why we think the
research adjacent space is wherethe real magic happens.

(00:47):
Hello and a warm welcome toResearch Adjacent from me, your
host, Sarah McLusky. Although Ireally hope you enjoyed the last
four topic based episodes,today, we return to the classic
career stories podcast format,and my guest Rosalind Gill has a
job role that has been on mywish list for quite a while.
That's because Rosalind works inpolicy. She is currently head of

(01:08):
policy and engagement at theNational Centre for Universities
and Businesses, also known asNCUB. As the name suggests NCUB
is all about connectinguniversities and businesses with
government. Rosalind's rolebrings people together to create
evidence based recommendationswhich align with government
priorities. Rosalind is unusualamong my guests in that her

(01:30):
career has been quitestraightforward. Since her
school days in the Netherlandsshe has wanted to do work which
gave her opportunities toinfluence public policy, and she
has done exactly that variousroles working both in and on
behalf of universities. In ourconversation, we talk about
bringing people together torespond to big sector
challenges, the realities ofworking in the sometimes

(01:51):
volatile political realm, thehuge contribution that
universities make to the UKeconomy, and why changing how
people think often has moreimpact than any individual
policy. Listen on to hearRosalind story.
Welcome along to the podcastRosalind, lovely to have you
here. I wonder if we could beginour conversation by hearing a
bit about what it is that youdo.

Of course. And thank you very much for the
invite. Sarah, so I work for theNational Centre for Universities
and Business, which is anorganization that is focused on
improving the conditions foruniversities and businesses to
work together to drive positivechange through research which
was relevant to this podcast,but also through more broadly,
kind of skills and talent andother forms of collaboration

(02:35):
around sort of localregeneration and those sorts of
areas too. So my role, inparticular, is responsible for
all areas of policy, researchand evidence, but also I work on
engagement which is reallyimportant for actually driving
impact through some of theresearch that we do. So the
engagement might be withuniversities and businesses to

(02:56):
understand what sorts ofbarriers they were experiencing
to their collaboration, whattheir biggest challenges might
be, or the biggest opportunitiesthat they see on the horizon.
But importantly, engagement canalso mean engagement with
politicians to ensure that theproposals that we make are
brought into reality, orengagement that's around telling

(03:17):
the story of how importantresearch innovation and all the
wider activities thatuniversities and businesses do
together, how they reallymatter. So that's a bit about
NCUB, and a bit about my rolewithin it.

Yeah that's really interesting. Thank you.
And I mean, that's quite a bigrole you say there, but NCUB is
quite a small organization,isn't it?

Yeah we're about 20 people, but we that's our
core. That's the that's thecenter and but the way that
we're able to work across quitea strong breadth is because we
work in partnership with a lotof others. So in the research
and the policy work that we do,we actually often work in
partnership with academics, withsometimes with consultancies as

(03:59):
well. So that's quite animportant part of our model. But
also, we would view theuniversities and businesses that
we work with as part of ourextended network. They provide
the insights and the knowledgethat are essential for us to
develop recommendations togovernment that are practical
and will actually make apositive difference. So we are
quite small in terms of ourcore, but I'd say that we're

(04:22):
bigger in terms of the widernetwork that we operate in.

Yeah, and it's interesting, when you talk about
that network that that you usethat term engagement. And I
think a lot of people listeningto this podcast will probably
think of the term engagement asmeaning around like public
engagement, and, you know,public involvement with research
and things like that. But as yousay, engagement means a whole
host of different things,doesn't it?

Yeah, I definitely couldn't agree more

Yeah, Well, definitely I can see that with
with that. And for us, it's,it's definitely a very
multifaceted thing. And it's,it's not that unusual for a
getting I mean, even just thoseof us who are very much on the
policy organization to have asort of policy and research team
over there and a communicationsand public affairs team on the
outside, like I am in terms ofgovernment policy and things
other side of the of the desks.And I think for us, what's
always been very important is totake that more integrated
like that, it does seem to take,you know, they need so much buy

(05:08):
approach, because ultimately,you can have the best evidence
base to support your policyrecommendation in the world, but
in. It can take such a longtime, you know, all these
if it doesn't have the supportand the backing of those who are
partners and people that have tocome together to actually make
actually going to be deliveringit and moving it forward, it's
very unlikely to get traction,and it's very unlikely to be
things happen in the policyworld. And so I can see why
successful. So we, we do viewengagement as very essential to

(05:31):
what we do, but we alsorecognize it has a lot of
having that network is soimportant, and having all those
different functions, a lot ofdifferent manifestations, and we
treat it accordingly.
people connected and engaged andhaving those conversations.
Yeah, so maybe you could tell usa bit about some of the things

(05:54):
you worked on. I mean, certainlyone example is that we were
meant to record thisconversation a week ago, but we
had to delay it because of anurgent contribution to the UK,

(06:15):
what was it, the industrialstrategy. So, I mean, that
sounds pretty high level stuff.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, this is a
really interesting time foranyone who's working in and
around policy, because there's atime when the government are
making quite a lot of you know,they've set out their stall.
They have five clear missions,and now they're developing the
delivery plans and the changesthat they feel need to be made
in order to move forward onthose five missions. And of

(06:47):
course, the principal one iseconomic growth. And
universities and businesses,working together, have an
absolutely fundamental role toplay in achieving that mission.
And I think the government havebeen quite clear that they the
industrial strategy is quite animportant mechanism in order to
get us there, but the industrialstrategy team have only got, I
think, until April, to developsome clear recommendations to

(07:11):
really shift the dial on theUK's industrial policy and how
it's going to drive us towardsgreater economic growth, which
is a very short turnaround time.So as an organization, we have
been doing, obviously, work overa much longer period of time to
develop recommendations that wethink can make a big difference.

(07:32):
And some of the areas that we'vefocused on, for example, are
around private R&D investment inthe UK. So the particular cause
of our delay last week was, wasthat so we have been recognizing
that, obviously, over a numberof years, we've seen record
levels of public investment inresearch going into the system.

(07:53):
I know that for a raft ofreasons, it might always feel
like that on the ground, becauseof the research funding deficits
that we have also we also facein the UK. But unfortunately, as
public investments have grown,private investment hasn't grown.
Actually, it's declined a littleover the last two years, which
is quite a puzzling picture whenwe know that generally public

(08:14):
investment leverages privateinvestment, and that doesn't
seem to have immediatelyhappened in this case. So we've
been working for the last eightmonths or so on a piece of work
which is led by Sir JohnManzoni, but it's also involves
Nancy Rothwell, who's the DeputyChair of the Industrial Strategy
Council, and she's, of course,also the former Vice Chancellor

(08:36):
of Manchester University. Soreally trying to understand what
cause of this is, but alsoimportantly, what we can do
about it, and recognizing, ofcourse, that universities and
their strength in research is areally critical part of that. So
for us, you know, there's a notreally linear process, working
quite closely with universities,with businesses, to try and

(08:58):
understand a problem like thisand to try and work out what
some practical solutions mightbe. But then also working quite
closely with with the IndustrialStrategy Council, with
government and governmentdepartments, to also ensure that
what we recommend goes with someof the grain. Because if we just
throw something out there thatthat is that doesn't sort of

(09:19):
align with the priorities, theshared priorities of all of
those stakeholders, all thattriangle of government, business
and universities, it's not goingto be successful. So that's
where the engagement questionyou asked earlier really comes
in, because getting thatengagement right is fundamental
to success.

Yeah well, that's really interesting, and I think
it's a really nice example of ofhow important it is to get all
these things aligned. And as yousay, making a recommendation
that sort of fits withpriorities and things like that
as well. Because I know that fora lot of people, a lot of
research projects have thisvague sort of intention of, oh,

(09:56):
we want to talk to policymakers, or we want to do
something that influencespolicy. And it sounds like a
really good thing to do in termsof impact, but actually, in
reality, that can be a verychallenging process, almost, I
mean, certainly from the thingsI've been involved with,
challenging in terms of, as yousay, finding that alignment of

(10:16):
what you do with the currentpriorities, but also challenging
sometimes as well with findingthe right people to talk to,
and, you know, getting into theright kind of conversations that
that can be challenging as well.So yeah, all of the work that
you're doing, I can see, isreally important to help to pull
all of that together.

And I think sometimes there is a
misconception that universitiesquite slow to change, but I
think then in many ways, they'renot, and they've shown in the
last few years that they're veryadaptable and developing very
quickly. And I'd say that one ofthe areas that I've really
noticed changing is that there'sa lot more investment into sort
of centralized support touniversities that are or

(11:00):
academic activity that's aboutinfluencing public policy.
There's quite a lot ofcoordinated efforts between
universities to create supportmechanisms to help academics to
see that route to impact. Andactually, the government's
helped itself with it in thisspace as well, because number of
government departments havestarted to publish their own
research priorities, which is ishelpful. It means that we're not

(11:22):
all collectively guessing whatthey might want. They're
actually telling us whatresearch they would like to see
to help guide their decisions.So I say that those are two
quite positive, positive bits ofprogress. But then the the other
side to that, of course, is thatthere are also challenges within
university sector that make makeit more difficult in some ways,

(11:43):
to take a strategic, considered,longer term view of the
collective impact that theuniversity and all of the people
who work within the university,what they're all kind of pulling
towards, because things arequite, quite tight and
challenging for the sector atthe moment.

Yeah, oh, that's really useful to know that the
government is, is publishingsome kind of direction on
research and things they wouldlike to be done. Because, yeah,
that that's, that's newinformation to me. So maybe if
there's any links or anything tothat, we can get them and put
them in the show notes. Butyeah, as you say that, well,
that long term piece just alwaysseems to be a challenge, whether

(12:21):
it's government, whether it'suniversities, you know,
governments work on these fouryear cycles, don't they? You
know where they've got to, oreven less than that, like you
say you've got a new governmentcomes in, they've got to show
they're making a difference veryquickly to keep the public
support and and universities aswell, having that sense of a
long term vision can can bechallenging, particularly under

(12:44):
the current financial situation.Yeah,

And actually, you know, I just mentioned the work
that we've done on private R&Dinvestment, and that's such a
strong message that we get backfrom industries is that they,
they want to see greaterconsistency, so that they they
know what the priorities arethat their investments are being
being sought for, but also theUK has had a bit of a tendency

(13:06):
of spreading itself quite thinlyacross lots of different areas
of economic priority. And Ithink being the industrial
strategy is a very good vehicle,perhaps for us all to get more
collective sense of what thewhat the plan is for reversing
some of the economic stagnationthat we've seen in the UK, and
how we can really drive thatforward collectively and get

(13:28):
behind it collectively as well.So I think it's a really
important point

Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Oh, well, you've
certainly very clearly explainedto us why where the work you do
sits, and why it's important,and how did you get into doing
this sort of thing? What's beenyour career journey?

So I think I'm probably quite a rare example of
someone who always sort of knewwhat I wanted to do. I grew up
in a very academic household. Mydad was a computational
physicist. We actually moved toHolland when I was six weeks old
because my dad wanted to workwith the top computational
The clue is in the name, yeah,
physicist at the time whohappened to be Dutch. So kind of

(14:05):
growing up like I grew up inthat environment, and I think
being in another country alsoopens your eyes to how decisions
that are made by governmentsactually do really matter to the
experience that you have and theopportunities that you have, and
I experienced in Holland a verydifferent education system than
we have here. I think in Hollandat the time, I assume this might

(14:29):
still be the case now, aroundone in five people went to
university, which is obviouslyquite different to the system
Exactly. So I worked on a wholerange of different issues while
that we have, where that kind ofexpansion has been so important.
So I think from my perspectivewhen I was choosing my career
like education pathways andchoosing what I would want to do
next, I always had in my mindthat I wanted to influence

(14:51):
public policy because I feltthat was the best immediate
impact I could make, and thatdriving positive and good
government decisions was a was areally good thing to dedicate
your career to. So I firstworked at Universities UK, which
is the representative body foruniversities for, for the UK, of
course,

(15:17):
I was there and got a lot ofexposure. Was actually given
huge amount of freedom to reallyconsider what the key issues
were for universities. Work withuniversities to identify those
and work across a whole kind ofbreadth of different areas,
which really exposed myunderstanding of different
things that the universitysector was grappling with. And I
then worked at the University ofBedfordshire as their Director

(15:39):
of Policy, which was a sort oftwo sided role. One side, of
course, was influencing theexternal landscape from the
perspective of a teachingintensive institution, but the
other side was alsounderstanding how changes were
affecting the institution andhow strategically we should
respond. And it was the kind ofpost Brexit, Augar review, sort

(16:03):
of period of policy. So therewas a lot of change the
institution was grappling with,including things like the USS
registration. There was, therewas a lot happening. And of
course, now I'm at NCUB, but Ithink what's been the sort of
golden thread that's ran throughthose those roles has always
been for me, what I've alwaysbeen interested in is the impact

(16:23):
that universities can haveexternally on economic growth,
on society, and how you designan effective policy framework
that helps maximize that impact.

Yeah, definitely. And I think, as you say, not
only are universities reallyimportant to the UK, but also to
the local communities and thingsthat they're based in. And you
know, as you say, the economicimpact and the you know, the the
influence that as a as like ananchor institution, the the
influence that they can havejust the decisions they make,

(16:58):
what it matters to the localcommunity, where they are. So,
yes, well, so a fairlystraightforward career journey,
then definitely compared to somepeople that I've had on the
podcast. So yeah, so along thatcareer journey, I'm sure you've
done a couple of things thatyou're really proud of. Do you
want to tell us about someexamples?

Yeah, of course. I mean, I'm doing quite a lot of
work at the moment, also withother organizations on sort of
how you really grasp policyimpacts and assess policy
impacts. And I think one of thechallenges a lot of
organizations have is that theyoften use sort of, have we
influenced a policy decision astheir final assessment of their

(17:41):
impact, when actually what youreally care about is, if I
impacted that decision, whatultimately did that decision
lead to? And has it beenpositive? So I think, from my
perspective, you know, there arelots of things that that we've
influenced and done that I'mreally proud of, but I think a
couple that I'd reallyhighlight. I think one for me

(18:01):
was that during the Augarreview, which feels like it was
a long time ago, but of course,it's still very much echoing in
the shadows of current policythinking. So that was a big
review of post 16 educationfunding. I think at the start of
that review, there was quite astrong view of the the diversity
of the university sector was waspotentially holding aspects of

(18:25):
the sector back or might not besustainable as a kind of funding
funding model going forward. Andwhen I was at the University of
Bedfordshire, I did a lot ofwork, actually with the Student
Union to understand what theyneeded and wanted from, from the
from, from the review, and Ithink that really helped to
emphasize just how important thediversity and social mobility in

(18:50):
the sector has been to the waythe sector has effectiveness.
And by working in partnershipwith the Student Union, even
though we had different views oncertain things like tuition
fees, I think we were able toput together a really
influential response to thatreview and work really closely
with the those on the panel toreally influence their views on

(19:12):
what a diverse higher educationsystem looks like in practice
and all the positive things thatit drives and contributes to so
that's something I'm very proudof. And I think has, you know,
we still see today in the sceneas well. But there are other
things, I think, in particularin relation to research, ncub,

(19:32):
alongside lots of otherorganizations, has been really
at the forefront of calling forthat growth in research funding,
and I think that has been a verysignificant part of the funding
and policy landscape over thelast few years, is I think
governments across differentpolitical parties have
recognized that research andinnovation is critical to the

(19:53):
UK's competitiveness and to itsgrowth. And I think, you know, I
definitely attribute a lot ofthe work that my team and NCUB
has done to some of thatnarrative, and also the
recognition that within thatpicture, private R&D really
matters too. So I think for me,the there are definitely some
examples of particular policychanges that the work that I've

(20:15):
done has contributed to, but Ithink where I've really I think
some of my proudest achievementsare actually more about where
we've achieved a change inperspective, because that has a
very enduring impact.

Yeah, and as you say, it's this is the thing that
you know. You always knew youwanted to do something that that
made a difference. So being ableto look and think those are the
things that have made adifference, even if maybe to the
outside world, they're not thethings that you know, it's not
like you've changed a law orsomething, but like, see, even
just changing perspective onsomething can actually, in

(20:51):
reality, make a really bigdifference. Yeah.

I think it creates the space for others to
think with you, because whenyou've got a more favorable
policy environment where there'srecognition that actually, you
know, we need to take seriouslythis issue of private R&D
investment. We need to bedeveloping solutions to the
decline that we're seeing. Weneed to be making ourselves more
competitive destination. I thinkwhat you're doing by changing

(21:17):
the perspective and makingpolicy makers think in that way
is you create a forum for yourown ideas to be heard, but also
for others to be thinking aboutwhat contributions and thoughts
and reflections and solutionsthat they might and sometimes
those solutions come from themost unexpected places, which is
why I'm more than happy to add alink to the research interests

(21:39):
from government to the podcast,because it might be that some of
your listeners will havereflections and thoughts in some
of those areas that could bereally impactful and make a real
difference.

Yeah, that's it. And sometimes bringing those
ideas from a really diverserange of different places can
make a massive difference. But Ilove your turn of phrase there,
when you said, it gives thoseopportunities to think with
people. And I think that's areally nice way of framing it.
Yeah, I'm sure, though, thatthis hasn't, at times, been
without its challenges. So whatare some of the hurdles you've

(22:10):
had to overcome throughout yourcareer?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, certainly there have been
plenty. I think many people willrecognize that over the last few
years, we've had a lot ofturbulence in political
leadership, so that has, attimes, meant that things that we
have been working on and gaininggood traction on has very
suddenly stopped, becausethere's been a change in in

(22:33):
leadership, and therefore eithera change in priority or need to
rebadge something as as as asthe new new administrations, so
that that's that can be quitechallenging to navigate. And
sometimes you actually look backat something you maybe worked on
five years ago and think, oh,that's become that's gone with
the grain again. We can use thatagain. But the grain has changed

(22:56):
a lot in the last few years, andthat's been difficult. I think
the the other aspect of itthat's that's often difficult,
is that it hasn't been theeasiest environment in terms of
recognition of just howimportant that role of
universities in the UK is. Whenwe talk to businesses, they
almost always tell us that theuniversity sector is probably

(23:19):
the UK's strongest strategicasset, that when you're a UK
country director and you'repitching for investment in the
UK to your heads in anothercountry there, it doesn't take
long for you to get to theuniversity system as one of the
main reasons for thatinvestment. And yet, I don't
think that has properly andfully been heard by a general

(23:41):
public and by policy makers. AndI think one of the issues, and
I've reflected on this quite alot, I think one of the problems
is because universities are soembedded, and there are so many
multifaceted impacts that theymake, that when we tell the
story of our impact, there are alot of ands, if we do this and
we do that, you know, we have weproduce the graduates, and we do

(24:04):
research applications, and we doconsultancy, and we do just the
local regeneration. We providethat anchor role as an
institution. So there is just somany ands that I think get a
little bit lost in the detail.So I think we need to sharpen
that story and so that we cancontinue to play the impactful
when we recognized for it.

Yeah, I think that that really makes a lot of
sense to me, actually, yeah,because it is universities just
touch so many parts of life thatit isn't always a very kind of
coherent story about whatdifference they make, and
increasingly in this very kindof brand, messaging driven world

(24:46):
that we're in, and people are soinfluenced by that sort of
stuff. But it if it is, if youcan't get to the point quickly,
then sometimes that message getscompletely lost, doesn't it?
Yeah, oh, but I also completelyresonate with you saying that
things come in and out offashion. I've been doing the
kind of work I do for longenough to see it's like, things
come around about every fiveyears, and then yeah, it's like,
oh, we're doing that again. Arewe okay?

Yeah, I thought I've assessed that the I think
the light, the shelf life, tendsto be around three years big
sector initiative, so we hadsomething like the efficiency
exchange, that's about 10 yearsago now, but that had about
three years. Yeah, there was thebig civic universities focus.
That had about three years.Yeah, yeah. There's definitely

(25:31):
things that come and go, butthat doesn't mean that when they
go, they've

gone forever. Yes, I think that's worth
knowing. Anybody who's quite newto this world, things will come
round Yes, things will come backround again. Fantastic. Well, my
last question for you is onethat I ask all my guests, which
is, if you had a magic wand,what would you change about the
little corner of theresearch-adjacent world that you

(25:56):
work in?

I find this one so difficult to answer, Sarah,
because magic wand sort ofimplies that it requires, you
know, it's not something that wecan drive, and I've struggled to
think of anything that we can'tdrive. I think, you know,
everything is within our gift.So I guess the thing that I
would most like to see changedis that I think sometimes we

(26:18):
view something like knowledgeexchange as quite an abstract
kind of concept when actuallyit's something that's people
moving between differentcareers, people sharing their
ideas, expanding their ideasthrough networking and co
creation. And I'd like to see,I'd like to see much more sort

(26:40):
of investment and support forpeople to be able to move freely
between different sectors, thinkfreely between different ideas.
And I know that sounds a bitabstract, but, but I think we,
we somehow seem to kind of selfimpose some some boundaries. And
some of that, I think, is selfimposed, and some of it's kind

(27:02):
of around institutional policyor framing or and it's a wicked
problem. So if we can, if we cansee the human side of this more
and engage with the human sidemore, I think we'd succeed
better.

Yeah, I think you're not the first person to
have said they want to use theirmagic wand to break down some of
these silos. And as you say, so,many of these problems we're
facing at the moment need lotsof different disciplines to work
together. They need, likeuniversities and researchers and
policy makers and people like usto work together and and find

(27:38):
those solutions. And at themoment, it is, we're almost,
yeah, we forget that it's aboutpeople rather than we think
it's, it's like some sort ofabstract thing, when really it's
about people talking to peopleand sharing ideas and getting
things done. So yeah, that islovely. And yes, I always think
of the magic wand as being it'snot so much that it's it's

(28:01):
magical, but it's more that ittakes down the the barriers of
money and time, and, you know,things like that, get things
happening a bit quicker. So,yes, fantastic. Oh, well, to
wrap up our conversation, thenif anybody would like to get in
touch with you or find out moreabout the work that you do,
whereabouts would you send them?

Yeah, well, we have a fabulous website. So
Yeah we'll get the links and putthem in the show notes. And do
that's ncub.co.uk, and really,there's a lot of material on
there that includes all of thepolicy and evidence reports that
we do, a lot of overviews of thetypes of projects that we have
running. But importantly, italso includes a lot of
showcasing of universitybusiness collaborations and what

(28:43):
they're achieving and doing inpractice. So that's a great
place to start. We also have anewsletter, have a monthly
newsletter that anybody canaccess, as well as a weekly
newsletter for our members. Andyou know, other than that, I
think we're a very accessibleteam, so if anyone would want to
reach out to us, there'sdifferent ways of doing that,

(29:05):
and there are contact detailsfor that are on our on our web
page. So we're always welcoming reflections
you do LinkedIn or BlueSky oranything like that
Oh, it's bit fluid at themoment, so I know, so I
definitely do LinkedIn, yeah.So, and the organization does

(29:29):
LinkedIn as well, so you candefinitely follow us on there.
We have, at the moment, only gotan X account, and we are on the
verge of converting to BlueSkyas well so do follow us on that
too.

Yes, it's all a bit kind of in the in the
middle, messy middle at themoment, in that respect, isn't
it? Yes. Oh well. Thank you somuch, Rosalind for coming along
and telling us about your story.It's been really interesting.
Thank you.

Brilliant. Thank you, Sarah.

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(30:18):
at www.researchadjacent.com.Research Adjacent is presented
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Music Studios on Pixabay. Andyou, yes you, get a big gold
star for listening right to theend. See you next time.

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