July 22, 2024 • 47 mins
It’s time to arise and shine, for the glory of Christ has risen upon you! (Isaiah 60:1) In this episode of Revealing Jesus, hosted by Christina Perera, listeners are invited to journey deeper into understanding our beautiful savior, Jesus, through a compelling conversation with Pastor Bill Johnson of Bethel Church. The episode is a part of Christina's summer throwback series, focusing on Bill’s insightful book "The Mind of God: How His Wisdom Can Transform Our World."
Bill shares how God’s wisdom, exemplified profoundly in Solomon’s life, can transform individuals and entire nations. He emphasizes Christians’ responsibility to be the salt and light of the world, impacting not just church congregations but also secular realms like business, education, and medicine. Bill drives home that all life is sacred under God, abolishing the perceived divide between secular and sacred.
Bill passionately discusses the significance of personal revival and how cultivating deep affection for Jesus can lead to broader societal changes. The conversation moves towards practical applications of this revivalist mindset, highlighting how Christians can influence their neighborhoods and workplaces by embodying the wisdom and power of God. Bill's reflections on Isaiah 60 underline the responsibility to "arise and shine" in times of darkness, ushering in an understanding that the power of the gospel can ignite transformation on all levels of society. "We have to live as though we're going to have an entire lifetime to display the wonder, the beauty, the power of the gospel to bring transformation." - Bill Johnson.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Revealing Jesus.
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Are you hungry to learn more about our beautiful Savior Jesus?
I am your host, Christina Perera, lover of Jesus, apostolic leader, licensed and ordained
minister, author, podcaster, and Kingdom Party planner.
Did you know that the Bible declares that grace and peace are multiplied to us in the
knowledge of Jesus?
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And that simply means the more we learn about our beautiful Savior, the more we will experience
all He died to give us.
Join me for all things the King and his Kingdom, including revelatory teaching, interviews
with Bible ministers, media leaders, authors, and more.
Come discover the beauty of God displayed all across the body of Christ.
(00:44):
Together we are revealing more of Jesus to a hurting world today.
Hey everybody!
Thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode of Revealing Jesus with Christina
Perera.
I'm your host Christina and I'm so excited to have you with me here today.
I hope and I pray that you are doing well right where you are and enjoying the continuously
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flowing favor of grace pouring from our beautiful Savior and Father in Heaven.
I've got a great show for you today.
Today we're going to continue doing our summer throwback series and I've got a good one for
you today.
We're going to throw it all the way back to 2022 in a conversation I had with one of the
senior leaders of Bethel Church out in Redding, California, Pastor Bill Johnson.
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We had an amazing conversation on his book, The Mind of God and How the Wisdom of God
Can Transform Our World.
And so I want to encourage you out there.
Right now we are in perilous times, especially I feel like in the United States, but all
over the world.
So we are in perilous times, but it's in those dark moments where God's glory is promised
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to shine upon His church, shine upon His body.
Isaiah 61 says, rise, shine, for your light has come and the glory of God has risen upon
you.
And so because of that, we can have hope.
We can have hope.
We can live in hope.
Thank you, Jesus.
But before we get started, I want to give a quick shout out to our Christina Perra ministry
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sponsors.
Go for Ministries, who provides all of our equipment rental, Life Changing Productions,
who helps put together evangelistic events to reach our city for Jesus, Harvest Family
Network through which I am licensed and ordained, and Davis Financial Services, who does all
of our financial accounting.
I hope and I pray that these episodes have blessed you.
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I pray that as you're listening, your faith is encouraged and inspired, and I invite you
to sow back into this ministry so we can keep bringing you these faith building episodes.
You can find out more information on how to sow back into this ministry at christinaperrera.org
slash donate or link in the show notes.
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So without further ado, let's jump back into my conversation with Pastor Bill Johnson.
Thanks for tuning into this week's episode of Revealing Jesus with Christina Perrera.
I am your host, Christina, and I am so excited to have you with me here today.
I hope and I pray that you are doing well right where you are and enjoying the continuously
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flowing favor of grace pouring from our beautiful Savior and Father in Heaven.
I've got a great show for you today.
I have an amazing leader in the body of Christ with me.
He is the senior pastor of Bethel Church in Reading, California and the author of The
Mind of God.
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Welcome to the podcast, Bill Johnson.
Oh, thank you.
Thanks.
It's a great privilege to be with you.
Well, the privilege is all mine.
I am just so wrecked by the goodness of God, and I absolutely love your ministry and I
love how you have hungered and thirsted after God.
Despite obstacles, you're impacting the world.
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It's incredible to have you.
Well, it really is a treat to be with you.
And it's fun that we get to exalt Jesus together.
You know what?
There's nothing better in the world.
That's the truth.
I mean, it's what we live for, right?
Yeah, that's the truth.
I have told our listeners so much about you.
Can you share something with them?
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Maybe that I haven't already shared, maybe something personal?
Oh, goodness.
I've been married to my most amazing wife for 48 years.
We have three children, each of whom married wonderful, wonderful spouses.
We have 11 grandchildren.
The last two were adopted by my son, Brian, his wife, Jen.
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And so it's quite a wild ride in our household.
They range from, oh, goodness, a year and a half or so to 21 years old and everything
in between.
You know, I've never met anyone who at the end of their life said, I spent too much time
with my children or I spent too much time with my grandchildren.
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Usually the regret is opposite.
And so while I love serving the nations and our own local church, the great privilege
for me is loving my family well.
I love that so much.
And you've really modeled that, I think, for so many who followed your ministry.
And I absolutely love that.
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I remember hearing this story.
I don't remember where you shared it, but you talk about how on your birthday you give
presents to all of your kids and grandkids.
Yeah, yeah, it's great fun.
It's fun over here and my grandchildren talk and one of them will ask the other, what are
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you going to ask Papa for his birthday?
And I realized that I'm right there under Christmas in their minds, so that's good.
I like that.
I love that so much.
And I got to tell you, Christmas in our household is big.
I have a six year old and she has been, you know, counting down the days.
Yeah, you bet.
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That's so fun.
Since March.
So I get it.
I get it.
So what?
You know, we only get one chance, you know, one lifetime to display the kindness and the
goodness, the generosity of our heavenly father.
And so it's just one of the ways that I've embraced to try to do that.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
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It is beautiful.
And I was sitting here thinking, isn't that just like God?
You know, he gave us the best gift on Christmas morning.
You know, hopefully that's what we're all celebrating in the Christian world, but you
know, yeah, exactly.
I had a chance to read through the mind of God and I got to tell you, I think I highlighted
and tagged so many pages in this book.
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Yeah.
Good.
So the mind of God, how his wisdom can transform our world.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What was your inspiration in writing this book?
How did, how did that come about?
Well, Solomon is a, is a favorite person of mine in the Bible.
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He's one of the guys that I, I, I admire so much.
And I know that he ended, you know, tragically, but it wasn't the fault of wisdom.
He stopped reading his own book of Proverbs.
That's why he got so messed up.
But I admire his moment in God where he could have anything and he chose wisdom and which
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really is the mind of Christ.
He chose to see from divine perspective.
And that really is what the renewed mind is all about.
And so I tell our folks, I say, listen, if the mind wasn't important, it wouldn't be
worth renewing.
And so our whole, our whole Christian life is learning to see through the heart and mind
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of God.
And, and that we can call it wisdom.
We call it the mind of Christ.
We can, there's so many different ways to describe it, but it's all the same basically.
And, and what it comes down to is, you know, Solomon was so impacting on the world, on
the nations of the world of his day, that the Kings and leaders would pay any price
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to come and sit at his feet.
The point being that, that God has solutions for every nation's problems, every nation's
challenges, every leader's questions.
He has the answers.
And instead of, instead of giving up on, on what God intends to do in the, in the nations,
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because they're so evil, instead of doing that, how about let's tap into the heart and
mind of God and see what, what answers he has.
So anyway, that's really the inspiration is, is just wanting to bring about transformation
of cities and nations.
I love that so much.
You know, I love that scripture that says Christ has been made unto us wisdom, redemption,
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and justification.
And he's all those things.
I love that the apostle Paul, he tells the Galatian church, clearly Christ was portrayed
to you as the wisdom of God, the supreme wisdom of God, where justice and mercy met.
And it is, it is, it's all Jesus.
And because of what Jesus has done, we can tap into that wisdom.
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So in a way we have something greater than even Solomon had.
It's so beautiful.
Yeah.
You said in your book, his glorious redemptive work made it possible for us to see God's
purpose, purposes accomplished for humanity while we are on the earth.
The escape is an approach completely undermines the significance of the message we carry that
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the kingdom is at hand.
Yeah.
Can you talk about that?
I know.
First of all, the return of Jesus is going to be the most glorious thing ever.
And so I would never want to say or imply anything that would somehow degrade that coming
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event.
But many believers assume that the answer for the world's problems is found in the return
of Christ and not in the power of the gospel.
Yeah.
And we ought to make that adjustment in our thinking because the return of Christ only
fixes stuff for the believer, doesn't fix stuff for the world.
And the power of the gospel is what brings transformation into this world.
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We know all who are listening to this, who are followers of Jesus know that the power
of God, the wisdom of God can bring transformation to a life.
We know that that drug addict can be totally set free and set on a redemptive course to
be a contributor to society.
We have to remember that what God will do for that individual, he will also do for his
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family line, his descendants, which means he also is willing to do that for his neighborhood.
He's also willing to do that for his city, his state, his nation.
In other words, it doesn't stop.
It's the same gospel.
The power of the gospel is what brings change.
And I just want to see people just, yes, we must be ready for the return of the Lord,
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but we have to live as though we're going to have an entire lifetime to display the
wonder, the beauty, the power of the gospel to bring transformation.
So that's kind of the point that I run to in this book and really in life.
Absolutely.
There's coming a point when that day comes, when we are all snatched away and taken into
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heaven with Jesus, right there in that moment, there's things that have been decided in people's
lives.
And if we kind of retreat into our own holes and say, okay, I'm not going to take this
gospel into the world.
What about those people?
Exactly.
What's going to happen?
For me, I've just allowed God to break my heart for what breaks his.
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And those are the things I weep over.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
You went on to say, neither the reformation nor the two great awakenings came from that
line of thinking that we need to be rescued.
We're designed as overcomers and those who are convinced of the heart of God for people
carry a conviction of the superiority of his message.
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One of the things that I admire most about John Calvin and some of the guys there in
Geneva, that part of the world was they just lived with this conviction that God had answers,
solutions, not just to problems, but had ways to do life, ways to live.
They just believe that in the scripture there was insight for banking.
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The Bible gave insight for family, how to do family or medicine, science, teaching.
God is the best teacher.
So he certainly understands education.
And so they lived with this conviction that God has a way for us to do life that's not
just about us getting people saved and then waiting for Jesus to return, but that we were
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actually as Jesus taught, a city set on a hill, a community that is lit up with divine
beauty, wonder and order that would attract people into it.
And so that's really the heart of the reformation in my way of thinking.
And the purpose for the book, The Mind of God is that God has ways for us to do life
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that actually attract and invite lost people.
Here's the amazing thing is somebody may come to you, for example, they may come to you
not because they want to know Jesus.
Now that's what we want everyone to hunger for, but they may come to you just because
they see how beautiful your family is, how your child respects you in response to you.
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And so they watch, they watch the result of how you do life and how Jesus has affected
your life.
And the Bible says taste and see.
And so we have the privilege of allowing people to taste of the goodness of God, taste of
the ways of his kingdom and whatever they taste will change what they see.
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And so they suddenly begin to see the goodness of God, the wonder of the Father and hunger
for Him is created out of the fact that they get to at least in part experience what it
is that we have learned and experienced in our own walk with the Lord.
So that really is the heart for me of the Reformation is God just has a way for us to
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do life.
We get to illustrate it.
And in fact, Jesus put it this way, let your light shine before me in such a way that they
see your good works and glorify your Father.
So what we want is we want our lifestyle to ignite passion for God in our experience.
I love you talked about us being salt in the earth and that's absolutely it.
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The places in our lives where God has transformed us, people then can see and then hunger for
that.
And you said something in your book that I really liked.
You said in practical pursuits, you said we wanted people touched by God wherever they
were instead of having to come to our church to benefit from what we have to offer.
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And it's not that we don't want people to attend our fellowship of believers.
Certainly we are delighted when they do.
We just changed the way we measured our success as a church.
Our church changed from an increased attendance on Sundays to a transformed attitude and value
system of our city.
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Can you talk about that?
We should all love the corporate gatherings.
No question.
It's like my favorite time of the week is to get everybody crammed into the building
to worship, exalt Jesus together, to study the scripture together.
It's just a highlight.
But if our only understanding of life in Christ is a corporate gathering, then we don't know
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how to translate how God has impacted us in the four walls of the church, so to speak.
We don't know how to translate His impact on how we relate to our neighbors, on how
we join with our business associates to impact their lives and to love them or to care for
them.
And it's got to be more practical.
It can't be just about getting more bodies into the building.
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Because if you look, one of the strange phenomenons in the nation is that the churches, excuse
me, the cities that have the highest percentage of church attendance, excuse me, the highest
numbers of people in church attendance in that city, they also have the highest rate
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of moral decline and the things from abortion to divorce to bankruptcy to all that sort
of stuff.
So it's not the fault of the church.
It's just the church hasn't yet learned how to translate what we experience together.
How do we translate that?
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I like to put it this way.
If God touches me properly in our gathering together, that I have the responsibility to
have that impact on my life, it's got to benefit my city.
It's got to benefit my city.
It's not just about another meeting.
It's about that I am changed to be more effective in loving and caring for my city.
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So that really, I hope that makes sense.
That's kind of our approach is that we want what we experience together to impact us so
deeply that we are of greater benefit to our city.
100%.
I always tell people revival starts personally.
It starts with a transformed man or woman of God so convinced of the power of God in
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their own life that they can't wait to give it away.
They can't wait to run into the streets and tell people about the Jesus they just encountered.
That's a big part of my ministry is inspiring others to partake of that great commission
that we've all been called to.
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I love what you said.
You said this is the backbone of our commission.
Everything we do from raising healthy families to preaching the gospel to praying for the
sick to leading people to Jesus, it's all done to complete this glorious assignment.
Pray and obey until this world looks like heaven upon earth.
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That's been a big part of your ministry is inspiring people to take what's happening
in heaven, what heaven looks like and bring it to earth.
How have you been able to cultivate a personal revival in your life that then sparked what
was going on in your church and your ministry?
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I think the first thing is that my focus is not on ministry success, whether that be numbers
of people in the room or the amount of healings or salvations or whatever.
The focus is on my personal affection for the Lord.
It's the personal adoration.
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It's the whole world slows down because I have this moment of deep affection and adoration
for who Jesus is.
It's not about me performing well for him, although obviously I want to do that.
I want to have impact on the world around me.
What motivates me isn't any of that.
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The motivation is to develop and nurture an affection and adoration and awe for who he
is.
For me, that's what it means to abide in Christ.
For me, that's what anchors me into the heart of Jesus so that I can represent him well.
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Jesus only did what he saw the Father do, which meant sometimes he fed the multitudes,
sometimes he healed the sick, but sometimes he went up on a mountain to pray.
It wasn't about getting the most bang for his buck, so to speak.
It was about staying near to what mattered most, and that was his delight and pleasure
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in the Father.
The best I know how, that's what I try to do.
It's so beautiful in this kind of Christian walk that we get to walk out.
Because our passion comes out of that intimacy with him.
It doesn't come from how many books we've read.
It doesn't come from our theological degrees.
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It comes from that intimate burning, that passionate knowledge, those times away with
him on the mountain.
Then we come down and we feed the multitude and do the such and such.
You talked about this encounter that you had with God, about how he spoke to you through
Isaiah 60, about how we are commanded to rise and shine, and how that's become one of the
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biggest parts of your life in ministry.
Can you talk about that moment?
Can you share that with our listeners?
I tell folks I've had two major encounters with the Lord.
One was an experience.
It was him coming in great power into my bedroom in the middle of the night.
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The other was not an experience.
It wasn't something that I felt.
It was something that happened on the inside of me in my world of understanding.
We would call it revelation.
Not revelation in addition to Scripture, but revelation of the Scripture.
It was a Thursday afternoon.
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I could show you where I was.
A Thursday afternoon in the month of May in 1979.
I was walking in this back part of our sanctuary.
I was reading as it was my custom.
I like to pray and read the Scripture at the same time.
I like to have that going.
As I was reading, I just happened to be at Isaiah 60 in my reading.
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There was such clarity of thinking, such clarity.
I was seeing things as I was reading, hearing things that I'd never heard before.
I started to see, well, it says, arise shine for your light has come.
The glory of the Lord has risen upon you.
There was a command for us to take our place.
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Then it says, the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.
Darkness covers the earth.
Well, that's the truth.
Deep darkness, the people, the mental depression you see on people all around you.
But then he says, but the Lord has risen upon you.
We have a responsibility not to be defined by what's going on around us, but by being
a people that rise in the middle of the craziness, the chaos.
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And then it goes on and he says, nations will come to your light and kings to the brightness
of your rising.
It goes on from there, but let's just stop there for just a moment.
He began to show me and speak to me.
Well, if I could go back to something we talked about earlier.
That verse nations will come to your light, kings to the brightness of your rising is
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what happened to Solomon.
When he tapped into that wisdom of the almighty God, the nations came to receive from him
and they came to his rising, if you will.
And so he was a forerunner in that sense of what the body of Christ is supposed to be
in the last days.
A people with divine wisdom and powers, the combination of the two that really illustrate
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who Jesus is.
And so that began to open up to me and it just changed my way of thinking, changed my
thinking on the church, our responsibility, our destiny, our purpose, all those things
began to be impacted just deeply on that Thursday afternoon.
And I thought it was just for us.
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I thought it was just insight for our local church there.
And as I began to pray into a study and talk to others about it, I started to see that
it was something that was not just nationwide, but worldwide.
What God had intended to do in and through his people really was anchored in Isaiah 60.
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So anyway, it was a life changing moment for me that if I could also emphasize another
part, it was very subtle.
The scripture says one of the burning bush, when Moses turned aside, the Lord spoke.
And so for me, this Isaiah 60 was a burning bush.
And when I turned aside, the Lord took a small moment and turned it into a life changing
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moment.
I love that.
Sometimes I think we get, especially in the charismatic church, we get caught up in the
massive manifestations of this, that and the other.
And while they're all glorious, no matter how he comes, they can all always be so impactful,
whether it's really seen with our eyes or seen inwardly in our heart.
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And they are all beautiful.
Yeah, that's true.
How true that scripture became in your own ministry, because the world has truly come
to the brightness of your ministry, the Bethel church ministry.
I can attest to that.
The world has taken notice.
It's been a great example in my life, but hopefully it will be a small example of what
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he wants to do globally.
Right?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's beautiful.
We're a very tiny part of what God is doing, but I am glad.
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, we are all a part of that, the unveiling of the glorious Jesus and this glorious gospel.
He talked about lines that divide us and keep us from fulfilling our assignment.
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Well, not because they have no theological truth behind them, but because maybe they've
been misapplied or they're separating us from a chance to succeed in our God-given
call.
Can you talk about some of those lines?
How can we erase them?
Because there's a lot of lines drawn right now across the world, across the body of Christ.
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How can we start to break down those lines so that we can work together and help fulfill
the great commission?
Yeah, that's a great question.
And it's a great challenge for us because, you know, let's be honest, all the folks that
are listening to this show, to this broadcast have a real hunger for God.
They wouldn't be here otherwise.
All of us are doing what we know to do to honor Jesus and to illustrate him, model his
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life to the world.
And so we don't lack desire.
We don't lack intent.
For the most part, all of us have said yes, we just want Jesus exalted.
But how that's done is different.
For example, when you become a believer, the Lord, he erases the line between secular and
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sacred.
That doesn't mean there's no secular part of society that we're to have nothing to do
with, you know, the strip clubs and what all the, you know, those are things that we don't
ever want to join in and mimic.
In any way.
But there's something people, when I grew up in the church, I would notice people would
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say, well, speaking of my dad, you know, your dad is called to the ministry.
We are called to business.
And there is no, there is no secular part of the Christian life or we shouldn't be in
it.
So that means then if I'm called to business, then business is now holy business.
My call to education, my call to medicine, whatever it might be, is as important in the
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eyes of the Lord as is the missionary that is called to the, you know, the dark continent
of Africa.
I don't want to lessen our celebration of the missionary or the evangelist or whatever.
I just want to raise our understanding on how God views the dentist who has been assigned
by the Lord as a minister of the gospel in that sphere of society, the school teacher,
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et cetera.
And so I grew up with this distinction between what was ministry, what was godly and what
was secular.
And it's just not true.
It's not found.
It's not found in scripture.
For the most part, the body of Christ is actually, excuse me, Jesus is represented by a high,
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high percentage of believers that are in the marketplace.
They're in society.
They're not in quote unquote full-time ministry.
They're not in ministry paid positions.
And if we don't learn how to erase that line in our understanding, then we will always
anticipate much less than what God intended for us to expect.
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So it just means the real estate agent can live with as much power.
In fact, I just think one of my friends in real estate this morning, he's a very, very
strong prophetic voice, a tremendous discernment.
And I would trust him in so many different ministry situations yet God has him in real
estate and he represents the Lord in purity and in power.
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And that's what we want.
We want the school teacher to use their voice to encourage, strengthen, empower children
to step into their destiny and purpose.
So the whole line between secular and sacred is very, very significant to me.
Yeah.
So that's what we see the Lord doing.
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We just see him erasing lines.
For example, another one would be between the natural and the supernatural.
Most of us think in terms of our natural life, then we have a supernatural life, but God
only has one and it's the natural.
All of it is natural.
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He doesn't have to turn the knob up when he's going to do something supernatural, whether
it's the growing of a crop through rain and sunshine and nutrients in the soil, the planted
seed of course, or it's a supernatural multiplying of food, the boy's lunch where multitudes
are fed.
It's all in his fear of normal.
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And the more our mind gets renewed, the more we realized, you know what?
God is to be glorified.
If the crop grows well, we just have a situation we're acquainted with where in a major, major
drought and they just didn't have it any way to have a decent sized crop.
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And they had this sense that they were to pray for supernatural growth of a crop, even
though there wasn't the necessary water.
And it ended up being a crop.
There's no explanation for it.
It ended up being a crop that was like 10 times their norm.
It was an extraordinary increase where the Lord was able to move in the midst of lack
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and do a supernatural thing.
So the point is, is we have to change our thinking there as well.
You know, I want to honor the doctor that serves in a natural realm, but I also want
the supernatural influence in that practice of medicine.
And as a result, we have a whole host of medical doctors that serve in our community.
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We were in a doctor's office here a couple of months ago and the doctor closed the door,
brought another doctor in, closed the door behind her and together they laid hands on
my wife.
They began to prophesy over her.
And I mean, it's just extraordinary to work with these people who are so highly gifted
and skilled in the natural, but also knew how to partner with the Holy Spirit to do
(33:10):
what he could do.
And so anyway, that line is being erased between natural and supernatural as well.
So we just see him doing a lot of those kinds of transformational things for us.
I absolutely, absolutely love that.
And you know, I think sometimes too, people kind of get this idea that, you know, the
doctor's report is evil or, you know, kind of things like that.
(33:33):
And they don't always realize that the doctors are on the same team as God, you know, and
you know, I've walked through my own journey with that.
And, you know, I've had moments where the doctors are like, okay, we can't explain it.
That just doesn't happen, but it does.
And it is awesome.
(33:54):
I love that you're seeing that line between the supernatural and the natural, well, what
we would call the natural erase because God really doesn't see that.
He sees us in Christ and him and us, and we are one.
And he sees so much differently than we see.
And I love the renewal of the mind to see Christ in us and Christ in our brothers and
(34:17):
sisters, you know, 100% because sometimes I think if we could see that way, I think
honor would flow a bit more freely, you know?
Yeah.
And so I'm excited about that.
I'm excited about what God is doing in this hour.
And I do believe he is reforming his church.
(34:40):
And it's amazing.
You know, you said something that really stood out to me when you were talking about the
teacher and realizing that she's what she's carrying into that classroom.
You talked about in your book about seeing significance correctly breeds trust and humility.
Our significance is tied directly to the one who has called us.
(35:05):
And it's not something based on our goodness.
It's based on his.
And I think if we can see ourselves, our call us significant, if the teacher out there could
see that call is significant, that she's carrying Christ into that classroom, what would you
tell her right now?
(35:26):
Words are powerful.
There's life and death and the power of the tongue.
She can make one statement into a student's life that they will never forget, literally
never forget the rest of their life.
They may even pretend to ignore it.
But the fact that she can deposit the wisdom, the reality of God, the presence of God into
a person's life, a child's life through seeing what others around them can't see, it marks
(35:53):
them.
All of us are marked by people who have said the right word at the right time.
And teachers have an amazing opportunity to see beyond the obvious.
Anyone can find a fault.
We put it this way.
It's not hard for a gold miner to find dirt.
But to find gold is the challenge.
(36:15):
And so that's what I would say to the teacher is to look for the gold because it's there.
God puts something in.
And every child is very, very significant.
And what we give attention to is what grows.
And so the teacher has an amazing opportunity in Christ to speak to those things.
So I just I get excited for the transformation in children's lives that can take place simply
(36:43):
because the teacher just believes for the impossible.
And that's what it comes down to.
Just believe for the impossible.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, you you talked about a song to bless the nations in your book.
And you talked about Jonah's call to Nineveh to release the mercy of God.
(37:04):
And the Lord has spoken to me a lot about that.
And you know, I just if we had more prophets going to the nations and speaking of God's
mercy, you know, what kind of transformation do you think that that would make?
It's amazing.
It's the mercy of God.
If you go to the Old Testament, you see the Ark of the Covenant and you see the mercy
(37:27):
seat was on top of that Ark of the Covenant.
The point is, it's inviting.
So when we speak of mercy, we're actually inviting people to come to know our Father.
And it's you know, even when people reject what's being said, it still leaves a mark
in their thinking.
And it may be a point of reference.
(37:48):
They return to a week later or five years later.
But the point is, is that we say what needs to be said and about the mercy, the kindness
of God.
And it's the scripture says that it's his kindness that leads to repentance.
And so one of the things we do is we speak to people about his kindness, because in that
(38:10):
is the invitation to turn to it.
Absolutely.
You know, and I think if we're honest, I think if we become really vocal, we're going
to be vulnerable and honest about the fact that none of us have anything that wasn't
given to us by the mercy of God.
The fact that we're breathing is proof that he is merciful to us.
(38:31):
The fact that while we were still sinners, God sent his only son, you know, and I think
if we're very vulnerable and very honest, you know, we can begin to invite people into
that.
And you're right.
It's the mercy of God.
It's the kindness of God, you know, and their hearts begin to burn as they see Jesus in
(38:53):
us.
It opens the door for them to accept this beautiful savior.
It's not the judgment.
You know, Jonas says, I knew you were going to be merciful to them.
I knew it.
This has been the most amazing conversation.
It has been such an honor to have you with me.
Is there anything burning on your heart that you would like to say directly to our listeners
(39:16):
today?
The one thing that I like to emphasize for all of us is that it is our responsibility
to keep hope alive in our hearts.
One of our gals told us years ago, the person with the most hope has the most influence.
And that really is where we're at right now.
There's, you know, there's enough craziness going on that it wouldn't take you but five
(39:39):
minutes to get into a deep depression.
We have to feed ourselves not on like the spirit of denial or something, feed ourselves
on these surpassing greatness of God's glory, the surpassing greatness of his promises,
the surpassing greatness of his intent.
He intends for this to be a season of glorious up-born.
(40:04):
And if we can maintain hope, we will always be more aware of the opportunities that God
gives us.
But if we don't have hope, we miss the slightest indicators that God has presence in wanting
to do something in and through us.
So I would say make sure that we live with hope, constantly live with hope.
(40:26):
And hope is not, biblical is different than the hope that's talked about in our culture.
In our culture, hope is kind of a wish.
The biblical word for hope actually can be translated the joyful anticipation of good.
It's excited before the good thing happens.
(40:47):
That's what hope is.
You talked about that biblical difference.
It's not, oh, I hope this is going to happen.
It's that confident expectation that something good will happen and that God wants to be
good.
And I just, I know in my experience, he always wants to be good.
He always wants to move.
He always wants to bless people.
He always wants to give, you know, he just can't help it.
(41:08):
It's who he is.
It's what he does.
Yeah.
Will you pray for our listeners?
If they are struggling with that hope, I know so many are so discouraged.
Will you pray that they'll be able to see through the lens that God wants them to see
through right now, to see what he wants to do in their area of influence, right?
(41:28):
Where they're at, whether they're in the secular or the sacred or wherever it is.
Yeah, for sure.
Father, we turn our hearts to you, confident in your goodness, so extremely kind and merciful
and good.
My request is that you would make that so obvious to your people in the season.
Those who have fallen into despair or hopelessness somehow come under the influence of the lies
(41:55):
that permeated our culture or that there would be a true healing and deliverance from that
mindset from the poison that has infected their hearts about this day that we live in
and that you'd help us to be so infatuated with you, with your kindness, your goodness,
your promises to us that hope is the only logical response to the day that we live in.
(42:20):
Make that clear for all of us.
Let all of us increase in hope and in faith and in love for the day that we live in.
Thank you, Father, for your kindness and your mercy.
Thank you for opportunities like this to publicly boast in your goodness.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Well, if you want to get a copy of Bill's book, The Mind of God, and I would highly
(42:42):
recommend it.
I think I highlighted just almost every chapter and almost every section.
It's really good.
You can get it at BakerPublishingGroup.com.
You can get it on Amazon, wherever books are sold.
You can get it on the Bethel Store.
I will put links to all of these places.
(43:03):
You can also get it on his ministry website at BJM.org.
I'll put links in the show notes on CPNShows.com under Revealing Jesus with Christina Perera.
You can find more ways to connect with him as well.
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
Great to talk to you.
Oh, it was so great to talk to you.
(43:23):
Thanks.
Thanks.
Beloved, let me introduce you to my King.
He is altogether lovely.
No matter which way you turn him, he is perfection personified.
He is velvet and steel.
He is meekness and majesty.
He is glory and humility.
(43:44):
He is kindness and strength.
He is altogether lovely.
And he is my King.
And he can be yours as well.
All day long, he holds his hand that you might take, that you might turn, one step, one grasp,
one yes, one breath away from the arms of your loving Savior.
(44:07):
Beloved, if you hear him, do not harden your heart.
The Bible declares that not one of us is guaranteed another moment upon this earth.
So pray this prayer with me today and run into the arms of the one who loves you, who
knows you best.
Father, I ask you to forgive me for all of my sin, for all of the places that I have
fallen short, God, of your glorious standard.
(44:30):
I ask you now to send your Son into my heart, to be the forgiveness of my sin, to be my
redemption, to be my righteousness, to be my holiness, to be my sanctification.
I ask you to forgive me, to cleanse me, to fill me with your Spirit, your power, your
(44:52):
glory, that I might bring glory to your name, Father.
I thank you that I receive all of this by faith in the Son of God who loved me and who
gave himself up for me.
I thank you that I am now a child of God, fully forgiven, fully righteous, fully holy
(45:13):
in your eyes.
And I ask you to help me walk out this life in a way that pleases and honors you, Father.
I thank you, Jesus, for all that you've done.
I thank you for your love, for your kindness, for your great joy in saving me.
(45:34):
And I thank you, Father, and I thank you, Holy Spirit.
And I pray all of these things in your beautiful Son's name.
Amen.
If you've just prayed that prayer for the first time, I want to congratulate you.
You are now a child of God and all things are now yours.
(45:57):
Keep listening to Revealing Jesus.
Find a good Bible translation that makes sense to you.
And keep hearing about our beautiful Savior Jesus.
Just let us know we want to continue to pray for you and we want to send you a free PDF
copy of our New Believer Workbook.
(46:19):
Just go to christinaperera.org slash welcome hyphen home.
Enter your email address and we will be happy to send this free gift.
And continue to pray for your journey.
God bless.
I sincerely hope and pray today's episode has blessed you.
(46:39):
Now it's your turn to continue the conversation.
We are all evangelists of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Like this episode, rate it, share it with a friend if it's impacted your life.
Let them know that you want it to do the same in theirs.
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(47:03):
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We would love to connect with you on social media.
You can find us at Christina Perera Ministries on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
(47:28):
Until next week, may grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of Jesus.
God bless.
Welcome to Revealing Jesus.
(00:02):
Are you hungry to learn more about our beautiful Savior Jesus?
I am your host, Christina Perera, lover of Jesus, apostolic leader, licensed and ordained
minister, author, podcaster, and Kingdom Party planner.
Did you know that the Bible declares that grace and peace are multiplied to us in the
knowledge of Jesus?
(00:24):
And that simply means the more we learn about our beautiful Savior, the more we will experience
all He died to give us.
Join me for all things the King and his Kingdom, including revelatory teaching, interviews
with Bible ministers, media leaders, authors, and more.
Come discover the beauty of God displayed all across the body of Christ.
(00:44):
Together we are revealing more of Jesus to a hurting world today.
Hey everybody!
Thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode of Revealing Jesus with Christina
Perera.
I'm your host Christina and I'm so excited to have you with me here today.
I hope and I pray that you are doing well right where you are and enjoying the continuously
(01:07):
flowing favor of grace pouring from our beautiful Savior and Father in Heaven.
I've got a great show for you today.
Today we're going to continue doing our summer throwback series and I've got a good one for
you today.
We're going to throw it all the way back to 2022 in a conversation I had with one of the
senior leaders of Bethel Church out in Redding, California, Pastor Bill Johnson.
(01:30):
We had an amazing conversation on his book, The Mind of God and How the Wisdom of God
Can Transform Our World.
And so I want to encourage you out there.
Right now we are in perilous times, especially I feel like in the United States, but all
over the world.
So we are in perilous times, but it's in those dark moments where God's glory is promised
(01:53):
to shine upon His church, shine upon His body.
Isaiah 61 says, rise, shine, for your light has come and the glory of God has risen upon
you.
And so because of that, we can have hope.
We can have hope.
We can live in hope.
Thank you, Jesus.
But before we get started, I want to give a quick shout out to our Christina Perra ministry
(02:17):
sponsors.
Go for Ministries, who provides all of our equipment rental, Life Changing Productions,
who helps put together evangelistic events to reach our city for Jesus, Harvest Family
Network through which I am licensed and ordained, and Davis Financial Services, who does all
of our financial accounting.
I hope and I pray that these episodes have blessed you.
(02:38):
I pray that as you're listening, your faith is encouraged and inspired, and I invite you
to sow back into this ministry so we can keep bringing you these faith building episodes.
You can find out more information on how to sow back into this ministry at christinaperrera.org
slash donate or link in the show notes.
(02:58):
So without further ado, let's jump back into my conversation with Pastor Bill Johnson.
Thanks for tuning into this week's episode of Revealing Jesus with Christina Perrera.
I am your host, Christina, and I am so excited to have you with me here today.
I hope and I pray that you are doing well right where you are and enjoying the continuously
(03:23):
flowing favor of grace pouring from our beautiful Savior and Father in Heaven.
I've got a great show for you today.
I have an amazing leader in the body of Christ with me.
He is the senior pastor of Bethel Church in Reading, California and the author of The
Mind of God.
(03:45):
Welcome to the podcast, Bill Johnson.
Oh, thank you.
Thanks.
It's a great privilege to be with you.
Well, the privilege is all mine.
I am just so wrecked by the goodness of God, and I absolutely love your ministry and I
love how you have hungered and thirsted after God.
Despite obstacles, you're impacting the world.
(04:07):
It's incredible to have you.
Well, it really is a treat to be with you.
And it's fun that we get to exalt Jesus together.
You know what?
There's nothing better in the world.
That's the truth.
I mean, it's what we live for, right?
Yeah, that's the truth.
I have told our listeners so much about you.
Can you share something with them?
(04:30):
Maybe that I haven't already shared, maybe something personal?
Oh, goodness.
I've been married to my most amazing wife for 48 years.
We have three children, each of whom married wonderful, wonderful spouses.
We have 11 grandchildren.
The last two were adopted by my son, Brian, his wife, Jen.
(04:54):
And so it's quite a wild ride in our household.
They range from, oh, goodness, a year and a half or so to 21 years old and everything
in between.
You know, I've never met anyone who at the end of their life said, I spent too much time
with my children or I spent too much time with my grandchildren.
(05:18):
Usually the regret is opposite.
And so while I love serving the nations and our own local church, the great privilege
for me is loving my family well.
I love that so much.
And you've really modeled that, I think, for so many who followed your ministry.
And I absolutely love that.
(05:39):
I remember hearing this story.
I don't remember where you shared it, but you talk about how on your birthday you give
presents to all of your kids and grandkids.
Yeah, yeah, it's great fun.
It's fun over here and my grandchildren talk and one of them will ask the other, what are
(06:01):
you going to ask Papa for his birthday?
And I realized that I'm right there under Christmas in their minds, so that's good.
I like that.
I love that so much.
And I got to tell you, Christmas in our household is big.
I have a six year old and she has been, you know, counting down the days.
Yeah, you bet.
(06:21):
That's so fun.
Since March.
So I get it.
I get it.
So what?
You know, we only get one chance, you know, one lifetime to display the kindness and the
goodness, the generosity of our heavenly father.
And so it's just one of the ways that I've embraced to try to do that.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
(06:41):
It is beautiful.
And I was sitting here thinking, isn't that just like God?
You know, he gave us the best gift on Christmas morning.
You know, hopefully that's what we're all celebrating in the Christian world, but you
know, yeah, exactly.
I had a chance to read through the mind of God and I got to tell you, I think I highlighted
and tagged so many pages in this book.
(07:03):
Yeah.
Good.
So the mind of God, how his wisdom can transform our world.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What was your inspiration in writing this book?
How did, how did that come about?
Well, Solomon is a, is a favorite person of mine in the Bible.
(07:27):
He's one of the guys that I, I, I admire so much.
And I know that he ended, you know, tragically, but it wasn't the fault of wisdom.
He stopped reading his own book of Proverbs.
That's why he got so messed up.
But I admire his moment in God where he could have anything and he chose wisdom and which
(07:49):
really is the mind of Christ.
He chose to see from divine perspective.
And that really is what the renewed mind is all about.
And so I tell our folks, I say, listen, if the mind wasn't important, it wouldn't be
worth renewing.
And so our whole, our whole Christian life is learning to see through the heart and mind
(08:10):
of God.
And, and that we can call it wisdom.
We call it the mind of Christ.
We can, there's so many different ways to describe it, but it's all the same basically.
And, and what it comes down to is, you know, Solomon was so impacting on the world, on
the nations of the world of his day, that the Kings and leaders would pay any price
(08:34):
to come and sit at his feet.
The point being that, that God has solutions for every nation's problems, every nation's
challenges, every leader's questions.
He has the answers.
And instead of, instead of giving up on, on what God intends to do in the, in the nations,
(08:55):
because they're so evil, instead of doing that, how about let's tap into the heart and
mind of God and see what, what answers he has.
So anyway, that's really the inspiration is, is just wanting to bring about transformation
of cities and nations.
I love that so much.
You know, I love that scripture that says Christ has been made unto us wisdom, redemption,
(09:18):
and justification.
And he's all those things.
I love that the apostle Paul, he tells the Galatian church, clearly Christ was portrayed
to you as the wisdom of God, the supreme wisdom of God, where justice and mercy met.
And it is, it is, it's all Jesus.
And because of what Jesus has done, we can tap into that wisdom.
(09:42):
So in a way we have something greater than even Solomon had.
It's so beautiful.
Yeah.
You said in your book, his glorious redemptive work made it possible for us to see God's
purpose, purposes accomplished for humanity while we are on the earth.
The escape is an approach completely undermines the significance of the message we carry that
(10:07):
the kingdom is at hand.
Yeah.
Can you talk about that?
I know.
First of all, the return of Jesus is going to be the most glorious thing ever.
And so I would never want to say or imply anything that would somehow degrade that coming
(10:29):
event.
But many believers assume that the answer for the world's problems is found in the return
of Christ and not in the power of the gospel.
Yeah.
And we ought to make that adjustment in our thinking because the return of Christ only
fixes stuff for the believer, doesn't fix stuff for the world.
And the power of the gospel is what brings transformation into this world.
(10:54):
We know all who are listening to this, who are followers of Jesus know that the power
of God, the wisdom of God can bring transformation to a life.
We know that that drug addict can be totally set free and set on a redemptive course to
be a contributor to society.
We have to remember that what God will do for that individual, he will also do for his
(11:17):
family line, his descendants, which means he also is willing to do that for his neighborhood.
He's also willing to do that for his city, his state, his nation.
In other words, it doesn't stop.
It's the same gospel.
The power of the gospel is what brings change.
And I just want to see people just, yes, we must be ready for the return of the Lord,
(11:40):
but we have to live as though we're going to have an entire lifetime to display the
wonder, the beauty, the power of the gospel to bring transformation.
So that's kind of the point that I run to in this book and really in life.
Absolutely.
There's coming a point when that day comes, when we are all snatched away and taken into
(12:05):
heaven with Jesus, right there in that moment, there's things that have been decided in people's
lives.
And if we kind of retreat into our own holes and say, okay, I'm not going to take this
gospel into the world.
What about those people?
Exactly.
What's going to happen?
For me, I've just allowed God to break my heart for what breaks his.
(12:28):
And those are the things I weep over.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
You went on to say, neither the reformation nor the two great awakenings came from that
line of thinking that we need to be rescued.
We're designed as overcomers and those who are convinced of the heart of God for people
carry a conviction of the superiority of his message.
(12:53):
One of the things that I admire most about John Calvin and some of the guys there in
Geneva, that part of the world was they just lived with this conviction that God had answers,
solutions, not just to problems, but had ways to do life, ways to live.
They just believe that in the scripture there was insight for banking.
(13:20):
The Bible gave insight for family, how to do family or medicine, science, teaching.
God is the best teacher.
So he certainly understands education.
And so they lived with this conviction that God has a way for us to do life that's not
just about us getting people saved and then waiting for Jesus to return, but that we were
(13:44):
actually as Jesus taught, a city set on a hill, a community that is lit up with divine
beauty, wonder and order that would attract people into it.
And so that's really the heart of the reformation in my way of thinking.
And the purpose for the book, The Mind of God is that God has ways for us to do life
(14:10):
that actually attract and invite lost people.
Here's the amazing thing is somebody may come to you, for example, they may come to you
not because they want to know Jesus.
Now that's what we want everyone to hunger for, but they may come to you just because
they see how beautiful your family is, how your child respects you in response to you.
(14:31):
And so they watch, they watch the result of how you do life and how Jesus has affected
your life.
And the Bible says taste and see.
And so we have the privilege of allowing people to taste of the goodness of God, taste of
the ways of his kingdom and whatever they taste will change what they see.
(14:52):
And so they suddenly begin to see the goodness of God, the wonder of the Father and hunger
for Him is created out of the fact that they get to at least in part experience what it
is that we have learned and experienced in our own walk with the Lord.
So that really is the heart for me of the Reformation is God just has a way for us to
(15:17):
do life.
We get to illustrate it.
And in fact, Jesus put it this way, let your light shine before me in such a way that they
see your good works and glorify your Father.
So what we want is we want our lifestyle to ignite passion for God in our experience.
I love you talked about us being salt in the earth and that's absolutely it.
(15:40):
The places in our lives where God has transformed us, people then can see and then hunger for
that.
And you said something in your book that I really liked.
You said in practical pursuits, you said we wanted people touched by God wherever they
were instead of having to come to our church to benefit from what we have to offer.
(16:04):
And it's not that we don't want people to attend our fellowship of believers.
Certainly we are delighted when they do.
We just changed the way we measured our success as a church.
Our church changed from an increased attendance on Sundays to a transformed attitude and value
system of our city.
(16:24):
Can you talk about that?
We should all love the corporate gatherings.
No question.
It's like my favorite time of the week is to get everybody crammed into the building
to worship, exalt Jesus together, to study the scripture together.
It's just a highlight.
But if our only understanding of life in Christ is a corporate gathering, then we don't know
(16:47):
how to translate how God has impacted us in the four walls of the church, so to speak.
We don't know how to translate His impact on how we relate to our neighbors, on how
we join with our business associates to impact their lives and to love them or to care for
them.
And it's got to be more practical.
It can't be just about getting more bodies into the building.
(17:12):
Because if you look, one of the strange phenomenons in the nation is that the churches, excuse
me, the cities that have the highest percentage of church attendance, excuse me, the highest
numbers of people in church attendance in that city, they also have the highest rate
(17:33):
of moral decline and the things from abortion to divorce to bankruptcy to all that sort
of stuff.
So it's not the fault of the church.
It's just the church hasn't yet learned how to translate what we experience together.
How do we translate that?
(17:54):
I like to put it this way.
If God touches me properly in our gathering together, that I have the responsibility to
have that impact on my life, it's got to benefit my city.
It's got to benefit my city.
It's not just about another meeting.
It's about that I am changed to be more effective in loving and caring for my city.
(18:18):
So that really, I hope that makes sense.
That's kind of our approach is that we want what we experience together to impact us so
deeply that we are of greater benefit to our city.
100%.
I always tell people revival starts personally.
It starts with a transformed man or woman of God so convinced of the power of God in
(18:44):
their own life that they can't wait to give it away.
They can't wait to run into the streets and tell people about the Jesus they just encountered.
That's a big part of my ministry is inspiring others to partake of that great commission
that we've all been called to.
(19:06):
I love what you said.
You said this is the backbone of our commission.
Everything we do from raising healthy families to preaching the gospel to praying for the
sick to leading people to Jesus, it's all done to complete this glorious assignment.
Pray and obey until this world looks like heaven upon earth.
(19:28):
That's been a big part of your ministry is inspiring people to take what's happening
in heaven, what heaven looks like and bring it to earth.
How have you been able to cultivate a personal revival in your life that then sparked what
was going on in your church and your ministry?
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I think the first thing is that my focus is not on ministry success, whether that be numbers
of people in the room or the amount of healings or salvations or whatever.
The focus is on my personal affection for the Lord.
It's the personal adoration.
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It's the whole world slows down because I have this moment of deep affection and adoration
for who Jesus is.
It's not about me performing well for him, although obviously I want to do that.
I want to have impact on the world around me.
What motivates me isn't any of that.
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The motivation is to develop and nurture an affection and adoration and awe for who he
is.
For me, that's what it means to abide in Christ.
For me, that's what anchors me into the heart of Jesus so that I can represent him well.
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Jesus only did what he saw the Father do, which meant sometimes he fed the multitudes,
sometimes he healed the sick, but sometimes he went up on a mountain to pray.
It wasn't about getting the most bang for his buck, so to speak.
It was about staying near to what mattered most, and that was his delight and pleasure
(21:13):
in the Father.
The best I know how, that's what I try to do.
It's so beautiful in this kind of Christian walk that we get to walk out.
Because our passion comes out of that intimacy with him.
It doesn't come from how many books we've read.
It doesn't come from our theological degrees.
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It comes from that intimate burning, that passionate knowledge, those times away with
him on the mountain.
Then we come down and we feed the multitude and do the such and such.
You talked about this encounter that you had with God, about how he spoke to you through
Isaiah 60, about how we are commanded to rise and shine, and how that's become one of the
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biggest parts of your life in ministry.
Can you talk about that moment?
Can you share that with our listeners?
I tell folks I've had two major encounters with the Lord.
One was an experience.
It was him coming in great power into my bedroom in the middle of the night.
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The other was not an experience.
It wasn't something that I felt.
It was something that happened on the inside of me in my world of understanding.
We would call it revelation.
Not revelation in addition to Scripture, but revelation of the Scripture.
It was a Thursday afternoon.
(22:43):
I could show you where I was.
A Thursday afternoon in the month of May in 1979.
I was walking in this back part of our sanctuary.
I was reading as it was my custom.
I like to pray and read the Scripture at the same time.
I like to have that going.
As I was reading, I just happened to be at Isaiah 60 in my reading.
(23:06):
There was such clarity of thinking, such clarity.
I was seeing things as I was reading, hearing things that I'd never heard before.
I started to see, well, it says, arise shine for your light has come.
The glory of the Lord has risen upon you.
There was a command for us to take our place.
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Then it says, the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.
Darkness covers the earth.
Well, that's the truth.
Deep darkness, the people, the mental depression you see on people all around you.
But then he says, but the Lord has risen upon you.
We have a responsibility not to be defined by what's going on around us, but by being
a people that rise in the middle of the craziness, the chaos.
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And then it goes on and he says, nations will come to your light and kings to the brightness
of your rising.
It goes on from there, but let's just stop there for just a moment.
He began to show me and speak to me.
Well, if I could go back to something we talked about earlier.
That verse nations will come to your light, kings to the brightness of your rising is
(24:15):
what happened to Solomon.
When he tapped into that wisdom of the almighty God, the nations came to receive from him
and they came to his rising, if you will.
And so he was a forerunner in that sense of what the body of Christ is supposed to be
in the last days.
A people with divine wisdom and powers, the combination of the two that really illustrate
(24:40):
who Jesus is.
And so that began to open up to me and it just changed my way of thinking, changed my
thinking on the church, our responsibility, our destiny, our purpose, all those things
began to be impacted just deeply on that Thursday afternoon.
And I thought it was just for us.
(25:01):
I thought it was just insight for our local church there.
And as I began to pray into a study and talk to others about it, I started to see that
it was something that was not just nationwide, but worldwide.
What God had intended to do in and through his people really was anchored in Isaiah 60.
(25:22):
So anyway, it was a life changing moment for me that if I could also emphasize another
part, it was very subtle.
The scripture says one of the burning bush, when Moses turned aside, the Lord spoke.
And so for me, this Isaiah 60 was a burning bush.
And when I turned aside, the Lord took a small moment and turned it into a life changing
(25:45):
moment.
I love that.
Sometimes I think we get, especially in the charismatic church, we get caught up in the
massive manifestations of this, that and the other.
And while they're all glorious, no matter how he comes, they can all always be so impactful,
whether it's really seen with our eyes or seen inwardly in our heart.
(26:08):
And they are all beautiful.
Yeah, that's true.
How true that scripture became in your own ministry, because the world has truly come
to the brightness of your ministry, the Bethel church ministry.
I can attest to that.
The world has taken notice.
It's been a great example in my life, but hopefully it will be a small example of what
(26:28):
he wants to do globally.
Right?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's beautiful.
We're a very tiny part of what God is doing, but I am glad.
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, we are all a part of that, the unveiling of the glorious Jesus and this glorious gospel.
He talked about lines that divide us and keep us from fulfilling our assignment.
(26:52):
Well, not because they have no theological truth behind them, but because maybe they've
been misapplied or they're separating us from a chance to succeed in our God-given
call.
Can you talk about some of those lines?
How can we erase them?
Because there's a lot of lines drawn right now across the world, across the body of Christ.
(27:15):
How can we start to break down those lines so that we can work together and help fulfill
the great commission?
Yeah, that's a great question.
And it's a great challenge for us because, you know, let's be honest, all the folks that
are listening to this show, to this broadcast have a real hunger for God.
They wouldn't be here otherwise.
All of us are doing what we know to do to honor Jesus and to illustrate him, model his
(27:40):
life to the world.
And so we don't lack desire.
We don't lack intent.
For the most part, all of us have said yes, we just want Jesus exalted.
But how that's done is different.
For example, when you become a believer, the Lord, he erases the line between secular and
(28:06):
sacred.
That doesn't mean there's no secular part of society that we're to have nothing to do
with, you know, the strip clubs and what all the, you know, those are things that we don't
ever want to join in and mimic.
In any way.
But there's something people, when I grew up in the church, I would notice people would
(28:27):
say, well, speaking of my dad, you know, your dad is called to the ministry.
We are called to business.
And there is no, there is no secular part of the Christian life or we shouldn't be in
it.
So that means then if I'm called to business, then business is now holy business.
My call to education, my call to medicine, whatever it might be, is as important in the
(28:54):
eyes of the Lord as is the missionary that is called to the, you know, the dark continent
of Africa.
I don't want to lessen our celebration of the missionary or the evangelist or whatever.
I just want to raise our understanding on how God views the dentist who has been assigned
by the Lord as a minister of the gospel in that sphere of society, the school teacher,
(29:20):
et cetera.
And so I grew up with this distinction between what was ministry, what was godly and what
was secular.
And it's just not true.
It's not found.
It's not found in scripture.
For the most part, the body of Christ is actually, excuse me, Jesus is represented by a high,
(29:42):
high percentage of believers that are in the marketplace.
They're in society.
They're not in quote unquote full-time ministry.
They're not in ministry paid positions.
And if we don't learn how to erase that line in our understanding, then we will always
anticipate much less than what God intended for us to expect.
(30:08):
So it just means the real estate agent can live with as much power.
In fact, I just think one of my friends in real estate this morning, he's a very, very
strong prophetic voice, a tremendous discernment.
And I would trust him in so many different ministry situations yet God has him in real
estate and he represents the Lord in purity and in power.
(30:31):
And that's what we want.
We want the school teacher to use their voice to encourage, strengthen, empower children
to step into their destiny and purpose.
So the whole line between secular and sacred is very, very significant to me.
Yeah.
So that's what we see the Lord doing.
(30:53):
We just see him erasing lines.
For example, another one would be between the natural and the supernatural.
Most of us think in terms of our natural life, then we have a supernatural life, but God
only has one and it's the natural.
All of it is natural.
(31:13):
He doesn't have to turn the knob up when he's going to do something supernatural, whether
it's the growing of a crop through rain and sunshine and nutrients in the soil, the planted
seed of course, or it's a supernatural multiplying of food, the boy's lunch where multitudes
are fed.
It's all in his fear of normal.
(31:37):
And the more our mind gets renewed, the more we realized, you know what?
God is to be glorified.
If the crop grows well, we just have a situation we're acquainted with where in a major, major
drought and they just didn't have it any way to have a decent sized crop.
(31:57):
And they had this sense that they were to pray for supernatural growth of a crop, even
though there wasn't the necessary water.
And it ended up being a crop.
There's no explanation for it.
It ended up being a crop that was like 10 times their norm.
It was an extraordinary increase where the Lord was able to move in the midst of lack
(32:22):
and do a supernatural thing.
So the point is, is we have to change our thinking there as well.
You know, I want to honor the doctor that serves in a natural realm, but I also want
the supernatural influence in that practice of medicine.
And as a result, we have a whole host of medical doctors that serve in our community.
(32:47):
We were in a doctor's office here a couple of months ago and the doctor closed the door,
brought another doctor in, closed the door behind her and together they laid hands on
my wife.
They began to prophesy over her.
And I mean, it's just extraordinary to work with these people who are so highly gifted
and skilled in the natural, but also knew how to partner with the Holy Spirit to do
(33:10):
what he could do.
And so anyway, that line is being erased between natural and supernatural as well.
So we just see him doing a lot of those kinds of transformational things for us.
I absolutely, absolutely love that.
And you know, I think sometimes too, people kind of get this idea that, you know, the
doctor's report is evil or, you know, kind of things like that.
(33:33):
And they don't always realize that the doctors are on the same team as God, you know, and
you know, I've walked through my own journey with that.
And, you know, I've had moments where the doctors are like, okay, we can't explain it.
That just doesn't happen, but it does.
And it is awesome.
(33:54):
I love that you're seeing that line between the supernatural and the natural, well, what
we would call the natural erase because God really doesn't see that.
He sees us in Christ and him and us, and we are one.
And he sees so much differently than we see.
And I love the renewal of the mind to see Christ in us and Christ in our brothers and
(34:17):
sisters, you know, 100% because sometimes I think if we could see that way, I think
honor would flow a bit more freely, you know?
Yeah.
And so I'm excited about that.
I'm excited about what God is doing in this hour.
And I do believe he is reforming his church.
(34:40):
And it's amazing.
You know, you said something that really stood out to me when you were talking about the
teacher and realizing that she's what she's carrying into that classroom.
You talked about in your book about seeing significance correctly breeds trust and humility.
Our significance is tied directly to the one who has called us.
(35:05):
And it's not something based on our goodness.
It's based on his.
And I think if we can see ourselves, our call us significant, if the teacher out there could
see that call is significant, that she's carrying Christ into that classroom, what would you
tell her right now?
(35:26):
Words are powerful.
There's life and death and the power of the tongue.
She can make one statement into a student's life that they will never forget, literally
never forget the rest of their life.
They may even pretend to ignore it.
But the fact that she can deposit the wisdom, the reality of God, the presence of God into
a person's life, a child's life through seeing what others around them can't see, it marks
(35:53):
them.
All of us are marked by people who have said the right word at the right time.
And teachers have an amazing opportunity to see beyond the obvious.
Anyone can find a fault.
We put it this way.
It's not hard for a gold miner to find dirt.
But to find gold is the challenge.
(36:15):
And so that's what I would say to the teacher is to look for the gold because it's there.
God puts something in.
And every child is very, very significant.
And what we give attention to is what grows.
And so the teacher has an amazing opportunity in Christ to speak to those things.
So I just I get excited for the transformation in children's lives that can take place simply
(36:43):
because the teacher just believes for the impossible.
And that's what it comes down to.
Just believe for the impossible.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well, you you talked about a song to bless the nations in your book.
And you talked about Jonah's call to Nineveh to release the mercy of God.
(37:04):
And the Lord has spoken to me a lot about that.
And you know, I just if we had more prophets going to the nations and speaking of God's
mercy, you know, what kind of transformation do you think that that would make?
It's amazing.
It's the mercy of God.
If you go to the Old Testament, you see the Ark of the Covenant and you see the mercy
(37:27):
seat was on top of that Ark of the Covenant.
The point is, it's inviting.
So when we speak of mercy, we're actually inviting people to come to know our Father.
And it's you know, even when people reject what's being said, it still leaves a mark
in their thinking.
And it may be a point of reference.
(37:48):
They return to a week later or five years later.
But the point is, is that we say what needs to be said and about the mercy, the kindness
of God.
And it's the scripture says that it's his kindness that leads to repentance.
And so one of the things we do is we speak to people about his kindness, because in that
(38:10):
is the invitation to turn to it.
Absolutely.
You know, and I think if we're honest, I think if we become really vocal, we're going
to be vulnerable and honest about the fact that none of us have anything that wasn't
given to us by the mercy of God.
The fact that we're breathing is proof that he is merciful to us.
(38:31):
The fact that while we were still sinners, God sent his only son, you know, and I think
if we're very vulnerable and very honest, you know, we can begin to invite people into
that.
And you're right.
It's the mercy of God.
It's the kindness of God, you know, and their hearts begin to burn as they see Jesus in
(38:53):
us.
It opens the door for them to accept this beautiful savior.
It's not the judgment.
You know, Jonas says, I knew you were going to be merciful to them.
I knew it.
This has been the most amazing conversation.
It has been such an honor to have you with me.
Is there anything burning on your heart that you would like to say directly to our listeners
(39:16):
today?
The one thing that I like to emphasize for all of us is that it is our responsibility
to keep hope alive in our hearts.
One of our gals told us years ago, the person with the most hope has the most influence.
And that really is where we're at right now.
There's, you know, there's enough craziness going on that it wouldn't take you but five
(39:39):
minutes to get into a deep depression.
We have to feed ourselves not on like the spirit of denial or something, feed ourselves
on these surpassing greatness of God's glory, the surpassing greatness of his promises,
the surpassing greatness of his intent.
He intends for this to be a season of glorious up-born.
(40:04):
And if we can maintain hope, we will always be more aware of the opportunities that God
gives us.
But if we don't have hope, we miss the slightest indicators that God has presence in wanting
to do something in and through us.
So I would say make sure that we live with hope, constantly live with hope.
(40:26):
And hope is not, biblical is different than the hope that's talked about in our culture.
In our culture, hope is kind of a wish.
The biblical word for hope actually can be translated the joyful anticipation of good.
It's excited before the good thing happens.
(40:47):
That's what hope is.
You talked about that biblical difference.
It's not, oh, I hope this is going to happen.
It's that confident expectation that something good will happen and that God wants to be
good.
And I just, I know in my experience, he always wants to be good.
He always wants to move.
He always wants to bless people.
He always wants to give, you know, he just can't help it.
(41:08):
It's who he is.
It's what he does.
Yeah.
Will you pray for our listeners?
If they are struggling with that hope, I know so many are so discouraged.
Will you pray that they'll be able to see through the lens that God wants them to see
through right now, to see what he wants to do in their area of influence, right?
(41:28):
Where they're at, whether they're in the secular or the sacred or wherever it is.
Yeah, for sure.
Father, we turn our hearts to you, confident in your goodness, so extremely kind and merciful
and good.
My request is that you would make that so obvious to your people in the season.
Those who have fallen into despair or hopelessness somehow come under the influence of the lies
(41:55):
that permeated our culture or that there would be a true healing and deliverance from that
mindset from the poison that has infected their hearts about this day that we live in
and that you'd help us to be so infatuated with you, with your kindness, your goodness,
your promises to us that hope is the only logical response to the day that we live in.
(42:20):
Make that clear for all of us.
Let all of us increase in hope and in faith and in love for the day that we live in.
Thank you, Father, for your kindness and your mercy.
Thank you for opportunities like this to publicly boast in your goodness.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Well, if you want to get a copy of Bill's book, The Mind of God, and I would highly
(42:42):
recommend it.
I think I highlighted just almost every chapter and almost every section.
It's really good.
You can get it at BakerPublishingGroup.com.
You can get it on Amazon, wherever books are sold.
You can get it on the Bethel Store.
I will put links to all of these places.
(43:03):
You can also get it on his ministry website at BJM.org.
I'll put links in the show notes on CPNShows.com under Revealing Jesus with Christina Perera.
You can find more ways to connect with him as well.
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
Great to talk to you.
Oh, it was so great to talk to you.
(43:23):
Thanks.
Thanks.
Beloved, let me introduce you to my King.
He is altogether lovely.
No matter which way you turn him, he is perfection personified.
He is velvet and steel.
He is meekness and majesty.
He is glory and humility.
(43:44):
He is kindness and strength.
He is altogether lovely.
And he is my King.
And he can be yours as well.
All day long, he holds his hand that you might take, that you might turn, one step, one grasp,
one yes, one breath away from the arms of your loving Savior.
(44:07):
Beloved, if you hear him, do not harden your heart.
The Bible declares that not one of us is guaranteed another moment upon this earth.
So pray this prayer with me today and run into the arms of the one who loves you, who
knows you best.
Father, I ask you to forgive me for all of my sin, for all of the places that I have
fallen short, God, of your glorious standard.
(44:30):
I ask you now to send your Son into my heart, to be the forgiveness of my sin, to be my
redemption, to be my righteousness, to be my holiness, to be my sanctification.
I ask you to forgive me, to cleanse me, to fill me with your Spirit, your power, your
(44:52):
glory, that I might bring glory to your name, Father.
I thank you that I receive all of this by faith in the Son of God who loved me and who
gave himself up for me.
I thank you that I am now a child of God, fully forgiven, fully righteous, fully holy
(45:13):
in your eyes.
And I ask you to help me walk out this life in a way that pleases and honors you, Father.
I thank you, Jesus, for all that you've done.
I thank you for your love, for your kindness, for your great joy in saving me.
(45:34):
And I thank you, Father, and I thank you, Holy Spirit.
And I pray all of these things in your beautiful Son's name.
Amen.
If you've just prayed that prayer for the first time, I want to congratulate you.
You are now a child of God and all things are now yours.
(45:57):
Keep listening to Revealing Jesus.
Find a good Bible translation that makes sense to you.
And keep hearing about our beautiful Savior Jesus.
Just let us know we want to continue to pray for you and we want to send you a free PDF
copy of our New Believer Workbook.
(46:19):
Just go to christinaperera.org slash welcome hyphen home.
Enter your email address and we will be happy to send this free gift.
And continue to pray for your journey.
God bless.
I sincerely hope and pray today's episode has blessed you.
(46:39):
Now it's your turn to continue the conversation.
We are all evangelists of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Like this episode, rate it, share it with a friend if it's impacted your life.
Let them know that you want it to do the same in theirs.
Help spread the word of the good news of Jesus.
Subscribe to the mailing list and get episodes, articles, downloads, and more sent right to
(47:03):
you.
Click in show notes or just text Jesus to 1-833-815-7778.
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We would love to connect with you on social media.
You can find us at Christina Perera Ministries on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
(47:28):
Until next week, may grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of Jesus.
God bless.
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