July 29, 2024 • 45 mins
Believer, you are designed to actively participate in ministry and bring God's kingdom to earth. In this episode of Revealing Jesus, host Christina Perera presents a thought-provoking discussion with Dr. John Jackson, president of Jessup University, diving into his book "Grace Ambassador: Bringing Heaven to Earth." This engaging conversation explores how Christians can live out their roles as ambassadors of heaven, actively bringing God’s grace to the world. Dr. Jackson passionately shares his insights on the new covenant of grace, the priesthood of all believers, and the need for Reformation in the church.
Dr. Jackson underscores the significance of understanding and practicing grace distributed alongside grace received. He articulates his vision for a Second Reformation, wherein every believer takes on the ministry mission daily, living out their God-given purpose. Drawing from his rich experiences and deep theological understanding, Dr. Jackson addresses the fivefold ministry and emphasizes the collective effort needed to embody the Church as Christ intended fully. Christina and Dr. Jackson also reflect on the character of God and the transformative power of the Holy Spirit in believers' lives. "The body of Christ does not fulfill its ultimate kingdom potential unless every single person discovers why God made them."
CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Dr. John Jackson Grace Ambassador, Grace Ambassador: Bringing Heaven To Earth, Instagram, Facebook,
ABOUT: Christina Perera Ministries
SOCIAL CONNECT: Facebook, Instagram & YouTube @christinapereraministries
SUPPORT: We can only bring you this faith-building podcast with your financial gifts.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Revealing Jesus. Are you hungry to learn more about our beautiful Savior Jesus?
(00:06):
I am your host, Christina Perera, lover of Jesus, apostolic leader, licensed and ordained
minister, author, podcaster, and Kingdom Party planner. Did you know that the Bible declares
that grace and peace are multiplied to us in the knowledge of Jesus? And that simply
means the more we learn about our beautiful Savior, the more we will experience all He
(00:30):
died to give us. Join me for all things the King and his Kingdom, including revelatory
teaching, interviews with Bible ministers, media leaders, authors, and more. Come discover
the beauty of God displayed all across the body of Christ. Together we are revealing
more of Jesus to a hurting world today.
(00:50):
Hey everybody, thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode of Revealing Jesus
with Christina Perera. I am your host Christina and I'm so excited to have you with me here
today. I hope and I pray that you are doing well right where you are and enjoying the
continuously flowing favor of grace pouring from our beautiful Savior and Father in Heaven.
(01:11):
I've got a great show for you today. We're going to continue our summer throwback series
and I've been loving this series, throwing it back to my favorite episodes as the Lord
leads and he's put this one on my heart this week. This was a conversation that I got to
have with Dr. John Jackson on his book Discovering Your Destiny as an Ambassador of Heaven. It's
(01:33):
called Grace Ambassador, Bringing Heaven to Earth. And we had this incredible conversation
about how God has invited us into the new covenant of grace, the priesthood of all believers
and reformation in the church. And it's an amazing, beautiful thing. You know, the Kingdom
of God is an active participation kind of kingdom and you are created to be an ambassador
(01:56):
of heaven telling people about the good news, the grace, the gospel, the God spell, the
good news that it sounds too good to be true but it is. And it's all about how God in
his goodness and his grace and his mercy freely gives to all who believe. Ours is an obedience
(02:17):
of faith. Yes, an obedience of faith. Thank you, Jesus. And it's such an encouraging
conversation so I invite you to tune in. This episode will help ground you in what the gospel
truly is and help inspire you to fulfill your God-given destiny as an ambassador of heaven.
But before we get started, I want to give a quick shout out to our Christina Perera Ministry
(02:41):
sponsors. Gopher Ministries who provides all of our equipment rental. Life Changing Productions
who helps put together evangelistic events to reach our city for Jesus. Harvest Family
Network through which I am licensed and ordained. And Davis Financial Services who does all
of our financial accounting. I hope and I pray that these episodes have blessed you.
(03:01):
I pray that as you're listening, your faith is encouraged and inspired and I invite you
to sow back into this ministry so we can keep bringing you these faith building episodes.
You can find out more information on how to sow back into this ministry at christinaperera.org
slash donate or link in the show notes. Let's jump back into my conversation with Dr. John
(03:25):
Jackson. Hey everybody. Thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode of Revealing
Jesus with Christina Perera. I am your host Christina and I'm so excited to have you
with me here today. I hope and I pray that you are doing well right where you are and
enjoying the continuously flowing favor of grace pouring from our beautiful Savior and
(03:46):
Father in heaven. I've got a great show for you today. I have an amazing leader in the
body of Christ with me. He is the president of Jessup University and the author of the
book Grace Ambassador, Bringing Heaven to Earth. I have with me here today Dr. John
Jackson. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much Christina. I just have been looking
(04:08):
forward to this opportunity to talk with you, to chat with your listeners and share some
things that God is doing in our planet, sometimes right next door. I love that so much. You
know, it's such an honor to have you with me here today. I've loved reading through
Grace Ambassador. I told you earlier when we were just talking, I absolutely love the
title to describe that New Testament believer today as a grace ambassador. I love it. Well,
(04:34):
I thank you for that so much. And I think I indicated, you know, for me, I've been carrying
what I would describe almost as a burden, like a burning in my heart. Like I have a
vision for this, but I have not been using the words grace ambassador until just in the
last several years. The word ambassador maybe is not something that a lot of us here in
the West are as familiar with. We think about government, but boy, Christina, the scripture
(04:58):
is full of references to how we represent God in the everyday. And that idea of being
an ambassador, I think it's really rich. So good. So good. Well, I've told our listeners
a lot about you today. Can you share with them something personal just to help get to
know you? Yeah. So I know sometimes people are worried about their age. I'm not. I'm
(05:19):
61 and I've been married for 43 years. Now I've got a bunch of kids too. So if I say
to somebody, gosh, so-and-so got married at 18, that's usually a really scary thing. In
my case, marriage matured me and my poor precious wife had to end up maturing me as well. So
we've been married 43 years. We have five children. We have four grandchildren, three
(05:43):
granddaughters and one grandson. And then we've got one more grandchild, be another
granddaughter on the way. So we're so excited. I tell people all the time, I love Jesus.
I love family and I love the church. I'm going to say I love the church. I mean, I love the
church big, small, gathered, distributed. I'm just a lover of the people of God everywhere
(06:05):
in everyday life. I love that so much. I love that so many people, when they come on here,
they talk about their families. And I think it's so precious to me, the idea of family.
And it's so straight out of the heart of God, that unity that connected, that oneness even
between the Godhead. I love that so much.
(06:25):
And I do think it is that the core and the heart of God, and I want to give an encouraging
word right now, if maybe a listener's out there saying, gosh, I don't have the mom and
the dad and the two kids and the dog and the cat and the white picket fence that we all
envision as family. Well, the scripture says this, God sets the lonely in families. And
part of what I believe is we all have a natural biological family. And sometimes that was
(06:46):
awesome, and sometimes that was awful. But He also makes us a part of His family. When
we come into relationship with Him, we get new brothers and sisters or more brothers
and sisters. We get new moms and dads. And so, you know, it's the heart of God to have
you be in a family, whether that's your biological family and a family of faith, or whether that's
(07:08):
simply your family of faith because your biological family has had some challenges that have been
disruptive. I just want everybody to hear, God sets the lonely in families. And that's
His heart for you is to have some relationships that are loving and meaningful.
Amen. I can't tell you how many times I've hung on to that scripture. You know, He's
so good and He's so kind and He will step in and He will be that loving father to you
(07:34):
or that tender friend that you need at just the right moment. That's who He is.
And Christina, I love, I don't know you that well and you don't know me that well, but
I just already know that you have an intimacy with the Father, that you know His heart,
that you felt His tender touch. And it's confusing to some people. But while scripture refers
to God primarily in the masculine, what we might think of, quote, some feminine characteristics
(07:59):
are regularly and consistently applied to God throughout scripture. So I think the fact
is that God is strong and tender. God is bold and protective and He is nurturing and comforting.
There's no dissonance there. That is the nature and character of God. And if I could, without
trying to preach too much, in the very beginning, it said, let us make man in our image, male
(08:24):
and female, He created them. So that's the nature of the Godhead is that He embodies
all that we might imagine as the best, the most holy of maleness and femaleness in the
best sense of those words, not sometimes, sadly, what we've made them, but the best
sense of those words.
I'm so glad that you mentioned that because it is true. He possesses both that feminine
(08:46):
and that masculine, and He always uses it correctly in the right way and with such grace.
Everything He does is with such grace. He's authoritative without being harsh. He's kind
without being servile. He is beautiful while still masculine.
Yes. Love, love, love that.
(09:07):
Yeah, so good. Well, I've told our listeners so much about you. I have to ask, how did
you meet our beautiful Savior Jesus?
Thank you for asking. And I'm a little embarrassed about what I'm about ready to share, but it
is my story. I was born and raised in small to medium-sized Baptist churches, literally,
(09:29):
Christina, and I'm not doing one ounce of exaggeration here. Between the ages of zero
and 16, I went to church on Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and Wednesday night, and I
was never allowed to miss. My parents were pastors, and they just said they had committed
to the Lord. We would always be in church. So you might think, by the way, that I'd be
rebellious, but the exact opposite was true for me. I was age seven. The Lord worked in
(09:54):
a church worship service. I went forward, and I'm ashamed to admit this. This is the
funny part for me. I went forward. I told my dad that I wanted to rededicate my life
to Christ. And my dad said, well, son, you've never prayed to receive Christ. And what I
told my dad was, oh, I didn't know you had to do these things in order. So here's the
(10:15):
craziness of the churches I grew up in. We had invitations every single week at the end
of the service where people could come forward, and I knew God had moved on my heart as a
seven-year-old. What I didn't know was that of the four things you could do at the end
of the Baptist churches I grew up in, you could receive Christ, you could rededicate
your life to Christ, you could ask to be baptized, or you could ask to join the church. Those
(10:37):
are the four things I knew about. And so I didn't know you had to do them in order. I
just knew I wanted to respond to Jesus. So Christina, and when I was seven, I prayed
to receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior. 1968, I was baptized in November of that year. But
it was many years later, by about age 14. And I know that sounds terribly, terribly
(10:58):
young, just like age seven does. But Christina, at age 14, I truly did re-consecrate my life
to Jesus. I was an athlete in school. I was somewhat popular, pretty good in academics,
pretty good in sports. And I remember thinking, Christina, I'm a pastor's kid. My life is
very different than a lot of my other friends. But I want to faithfully live and love Jesus
(11:24):
and live for Him every day. So I rededicated my life. One of my memories of that stage,
Christina, is that I took my Bible with me on every away game that we were playing. I
was an athlete. And so when we traveled on buses, I would bring my Bible and read my
Bible before the games and tried to witness and share Christ with my friends. And so I
(11:46):
gave my life to Jesus at age seven. I rededicated my life at age 14. And when I was 16, it's
a much longer story, but when I was 16, Christina, I felt God calling me to be a pastor. And
that is not what I wanted. I wanted to be a pro baseball player. And I know this for
some of your audience, maybe this language will sound strange, but Christina, I heard
(12:07):
the Lord. The Lord spoke to me. It wasn't an audible voice, but in a way that I've never
doubted, He spoke to me and said, I want you to serve me full time with your life as a
pastor. And I said, yes. And that was the beginning of the journey that now is 45 years
later.
I love that so much. You know, all of our stories are so different. And I just want
(12:29):
to encourage you out there that Jesus has a plan and a purpose for your relationship
with Him. And just like you were sharing, it's up and down. It's a back and forth. It's
not always in the right order, according to some, but it's always perfect and it's always
on time and it's always His way.
I love that you're saying that. And I want to just add maybe one more thing to listeners.
(12:52):
When you get to the point in your life where you realize that God has been pursuing you
and you say yes and you surrender to Him and say, you know, God, what is your plan for
my life? When all that happens, I've always had this experience, Christina, that when
I'm walking with people on that journey, they look back and they say, you know, I didn't
know it, but God actually was meeting me at several different points in my life. I remember
(13:17):
when this happened. I remember when a person said that word. I remember when that experience
happened and they can kind of look back and see the footprints or see the handprints of
God on their life in a way that maybe they didn't recognize at the time, but when they
do come to the point of surrender, they're able to look back and it's undeniable that
(13:38):
God has been pursuing them.
I love that you mentioned that. That's so important. You know, I've looked back and
seen it in my own life and I've heard so many say it. And I think sometimes we take things
for granted and we have to realize that He is so intentional towards us and He knows
how to woo each and every one of us into the relationship, into what He has for us. And,
(14:01):
you know, it's so interesting because He deals with each one of us so personally. I can talk
to a friend and they're like, oh, He's this way with me. He's always true Jesus style.
And you know, with others, He's always so tender and kind in different ways. And it's
just so interesting and beautiful. And that's why this is revealing Jesus because, you know,
(14:21):
He is revealing Himself in each one of our lives. And it's such a privilege and honor
to sit down and hear from so many different people laying down their lives for this living,
loving Savior.
And really, Christina, as you said, it's a privilege and it's also an amazing recognition
that even though people are very different, you might look at somebody's background. You
(14:45):
know, I grew up in church. Other people grew up in the streets. I grew up with people pushing
me towards God and maybe other people grew up with people pushing them away from God.
But whatever the journey has been to realize that God makes Himself known and that He loves
deeply and fully each and every one of us. I just think of one of those simple scriptures
(15:07):
in the Bible that I'm sure you and your listeners think a lot. John 3 16, God so loved the world
that He gave. And then it goes on to talk about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins.
But then John 3 17 says, God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,
but to save the world, that the world through Him might be saved. And wow, every single
(15:31):
person, no matter where our journey started or the middle or wherever we feel right now,
God loves you and He's pursuing you. He cares deeply and passionately about you.
Yes, absolutely. So good. So good. Well, I have absolutely enjoyed reading through your
(15:51):
book, Grace Ambassador. I felt like the heart of this was really after reforming the church
and into what God always created it to be. Can you tell me a little bit about what you
hope people see in this book? Thank you so much, Christina. And thank you
for recognizing, by the way, my not so subtle agenda to see the church reformed. You know,
(16:16):
if you're a history person, you probably know a little bit about the first reformation was
back in the 1500s. And one of the things I say in the book, Christina, is that in the
first reformation, I think we got it pretty well that it's about grace received, that
salvation is by grace that we receive through faith. There's nothing you do to earn God's
favor. It comes with His compassion and love and tenderness and He gives us forgiveness.
(16:39):
So that's grace received. I think that we didn't do very well in the last 500 years
understanding not just grace received, which is so critical. It's the foundation. But we
didn't understand grace distributed. And here's what I mean by that. Christina, I kind of
want to change the metric of what's going on in the church. And there's a passage in
(17:01):
first John that talks about babes and sons and fathers. And so I want you to think about
this babes, sons and daughters, fathers and mothers. It's sad to me, Christina, that we
often think about people spiritually. And if you were to consider most churches, we
may have some babes, we may have some sons and daughters, but very few fathers and mothers
(17:26):
in a spiritual sense. And what I want to say, Christina, is that God longs for every person
to grow to maturity. He longs for every person to be a fully reproducing carrier of the grace
of heaven. God loves people so much that he didn't leave the planet alone. He sent Jesus.
(17:48):
And then after Jesus left, he said, it's to your advantage that I go because I'm going
to send you another helper, the comforter. And this is so strange, Christina. I mean,
it just boggles my mind to even say these words, but it's straight from the Bible. The
same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in us if we're followers of Christ.
(18:08):
And so I think what Jesus did when he left is he gave his spirit to everybody who loves
him. So I think Christina, in your life, and I know this about you, my life and everybody
who loves Jesus, in your everyday walking around life, your work, your family, your
neighborhood, your gym, whatever you do for recreation, you carry the presence of God.
(18:33):
You literally carry heaven to everyday places on earth.
So good. You know, that's absolutely what Jesus died to give us. He died to give us
his spirit and bring him into that relationship with him. And not only that, but he gave us
a spirit so that we can continue the ministry of reconciliation.
(18:54):
Yes, Christina, that's that core passage in second Corinthians chapter five. It starts
at verse 16, 17, which says that we actually are new creations in Christ. And it even uses
the phrase we are ambassadors of reconciliation. It's like in that passage, Christina, it says
God was literally begging us through God or begging people to be reconciled to God.
(19:16):
Yeah, so good. Yes, so good. That's absolutely it. And you know, what compels people to come
into the Father is the goodness of God. It is the grace of God. It is the mercy. It is
the favor. It is the forgiveness. It's everything we don't deserve. And yet he gives it to us
freely because that's who he is. Amen. And amen. I want to say this, you know, Romans
(19:42):
2, 4 says it's his kindness that leads us to repentance. And Christina, I got to be
honest and I love my Baptist heritage. I absolutely honor my Baptist heritage, but I knew a lot
about Jesus dying on the cross for my sins. And I knew that what that meant is that I
could be forgiven and I spend eternity with the Father and not eternity separated from
(20:06):
him. But to be honest, just to be very honest, I didn't know hardly anything about the fact
that not only did Jesus come to die on the cross, he came to demonstrate what intimacy
with the Father was all about in everyday human experience. When you're full of the
Holy Spirit, you literally are walking and talking with God every day. And Romans 2,
(20:30):
4 says it's actually not me thundering judgment that brings people to God. It's the kindness
of God that brings us to repentance. When you see how much God loves you, Christina,
when you see how much he deeply, radically, gloriously loves you, by the way, and again,
we don't know each other that well, I don't know your stuff and you don't know my stuff,
(20:55):
but he does. And in the midst of all of our stuff, our brokenness, our pain, he loves
us so deeply, so fully and longs for us to be made whole. Wow. That's what leads us to
repentance.
So good. So good. And you know, that's one of the most beautiful things I love about
(21:17):
the character of God, that he's so kind and so merciful to us, even when we don't deserve
it. You know, I too grew up in the Baptist church. I was saved at the age of seven and
I was called to preach sitting on a Baptist pew. Wow. And I had to go through a lot of
training about the things of the Spirit. I think you're right. I think some areas of
(21:42):
the church have done a marvelous job evangelizing to the foot of the cross, but we've not gone
fully through to the ascension. And it's really important that we go through fully to the
ascension if we are to see the church reformed, if we are to see the world around us reformed,
(22:03):
because without the power of the Holy Spirit, we can't meet the needs of the people around
us. And by that, I mean, we can't minister healing, we can't minister deliverance, we
can't minister anything that they need. And you know, that's why so much of my ministry
and so much of revealing Jesus is encouraging everyday believers to go out into the world
(22:29):
and reach the world around them. You had some marvelous quotes up on the grace distributed.
And I just want to read this real quick. The reformers also said that they believed in
the priesthood of all believers with direct access to God, to scripture and to ministry.
While glorious ministry has come these past 500 years, mingled with tragedy and pain,
(22:54):
the Protestant church has also demonstrated by our behavior that we do not fundamentally
believe in the priesthood of all believers as we have declared. Can you talk about that?
Oh, yes, I can. And boy, your words are just stirring me. You don't know this, but my wife
is a trained inner healing minister. And so many times we have what we often call a truncated
(23:18):
gospel. It's a gospel of salvation, but it's not a gospel of healing and deliverance. And
I really believe that the heart of God is to redeem, to make the broken whole and to
be able to carry his love and grace and healing into every atmosphere that we go. So when
I talk about the reformation specifically, Christina, again, I believe in the priesthood
(23:43):
of all believers. We have every single person who knows Jesus has direct access to the Father.
And we said that we believe that. And again, I had the privilege of being licensed and
ordained and Baptist settings at an early age. And so thanks be to God. I appreciate
that. And we have good doctrine, but Christina, quite frankly, I think that just as you said,
(24:05):
I'm going to use your phrase. We've taken people to the foot of the cross in some settings.
And that's wonderful. So wonderful. But we have not gone all the way through to the ascension.
And the reason why Jesus told his disciples to remain in Jerusalem is that the Holy Spirit
would come upon them with power. When Jesus says greater works than I do, you will do.
What could he mean by that? Oh my goodness. But here's the truth. There are now billions
(24:31):
of followers of Jesus on the planet. And literally we have the power to bring heaven to earth.
It's not about us. It's never, ever, ever about us. It's about him. So I love your show,
revealing Jesus. It's about making much of Jesus. The scripture tells us that Jesus himself
said if he was lifted up, he would draw all men unto him. Healing, grace, atonement, salvation
(24:56):
are found in Jesus and in his cross, but also the gift of the Holy Spirit comes. So when
I say that we failed, what I mean is this. We believe, we don't admit it out loud, Christina,
but by our practice, we actually have shown that we don't believe in the priesthood of
all believers. We believe that amazingly anointed teacher, that gifted worship leader, that
(25:18):
great healing evangelist, those are the amazing people. But us every day, regular folks who
sit in the chairs, sit in the pews, listen by radio or by TV, we're just regular folks.
And Christina, I'm on a mission. I'm on a mission for what I sometimes call a full employment
policy in the body of Christ. Amen. So let me just quickly say Ephesians 4. God gave
(25:42):
apostles and prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to equip the people for the work
of ministry so that the body can be built up to full maturity. And then here's one more
verse by the proper working of each individual part. Christina, the body of Christ, the household
of faith does not fulfill its ultimate kingdom of God potential unless every single person
(26:07):
discovers why. Why did God make me? What? What has he called me to do? Who am I? Why
am I? And we hear his assignment. And that's why Christina, it's so exciting. Every day
there's a conversation. Every day there's an opportunity to pray. Every day there's
an action we can take where we get to bring heaven to earth. Amen. Amen, amen, amen.
(26:34):
You know, I'm so excited that you're saying that. You're preaching after my own heart
because God has hidden gifts and abilities and talents and fivefold ministers all around
us. And we need absolutely every single one of us. I can't fulfill my call without you.
You can't fulfill your call without me. You know, I can't fulfill my call without Joe
(26:55):
down the street and being who God created him to be because God has so authored it in
this end time that there would be this cross pollination, this building up of the body
of Christ until we come into the fullness of who we are in him. I love that. Can I share
a very quick practical story? Yes, absolutely. And then I want to talk about the fivefold
(27:19):
ministry and how you want to see that reformed and where you think we need to go from there.
So good. So here's a quick story. People say, well, how can I do this? Let me give you one
illustration. I used to be a server in a restaurant. I worked in a small little diner many years
ago. And so I was a short order cook and did some serving. So because of my job now being
president of a university, I'm out in restaurants meeting with people a lot to go. And I've
(27:41):
done this before. But in seven months ago, Christine, I started saying to the servers,
you know, I asked their name and I say, I like to pray for my food when we receive it.
But beyond that, I've also decided I want to pray for people who serve us. So is there
one thing I could pray for you today? Christina, that's all I say. In the last seven months,
I've had people literally stop and then tears start coming down their face. I've had a couple
(28:06):
times people said, excuse me, just a moment. They walk away from the table. I think, oh
my goodness, I've offended them. But actually, they come back and they say, you have no idea.
You have no idea what I'm going through right now. And the idea that somebody would pray
for me and then others immediately share. Sometimes people are awkward. And so I just
give you a quick little line I use. If somebody says, I don't know, I don't really have anything
(28:27):
to pray for or I'm not really into prayer. I'll say this. Okay. I'm going to pray that
today you will receive more tips than ever before. You know, no server is going to object
to that because having been a server, tips is what you live on. So I just say that, Christine,
to say in the everyday, in the everyday, just bring the love, the grace, the kindness of
(28:49):
the Lord, offer to pray. Sometimes I've had really amazing conversations. Other times
it's just literally 60 seconds. But I think we bring the presence of God into those everyday
simple circumstances.
I love that you shared that. And just listening to you share that was just so breaking my
heart because if we have eyes to see and ears to hear, people are so hungry. I get agitated
(29:15):
when I hear people say things like, oh, this younger generation isn't hungry for God. But
the truth is that they are. They are so hungry.
Well, Christina, there's a recent report from George Barna that came out on millennials.
I'll just give you one stat from that. Seventy eight percent of millennials are deeply longing
for their life purpose. Christina, that should be so instead of being defeating, that should
(29:40):
be so encouraging to the people of God. That should be so encouraging. Seventy eight percent
say I desperately want to know my why. Why am I here?
Yeah. You know, the truth is that discovering your purpose in Christ and what He's created
you for, there's nothing like it. I talk to people on this podcast all the time and we
(30:02):
always joke around and say things like when you live your life for God, you're never going
to be bored. He's constantly doing things that just wow you. And He's constantly asking
you to take steps of faith and take risk and go out in over your head where He will show
up and do the impossible in your life. And it's truly the most exciting place that you
(30:24):
can be. And I'm a millennial and I just want to say out there, this is for you. This is
for absolutely every single person who would believe. That's what Jesus died for.
So, so good. I'm just right there with you.
Well, back to my other question. The Lord has, the Holy Spirit's taken me through to
(30:46):
the five full gifts. Yes. How can, you know, traditionally in the past in the church, we've
seen the teacher and we've seen the pastor. How can we see the apostle, the prophet, the
evangelist in their rightful places?
Yes. So first of all, I think just saying this, you know, when we think about church
movements, we say, oh, that's a word-based church. Or we go to other movements and say,
(31:11):
wow, they're full of the Spirit. I just want to use other words for just a moment. I want
to be full of grace and full of truth, just like Jesus. And I want to be full of the word
and full of the Spirit, just like Jesus. Your show's about revealing Jesus. Your conversation
is about revealing Jesus. I want to be full of the word and full of the Spirit. So the
word in Ephesians 4 tells us there's apostles, there's prophets, there's evangelists, there's
(31:37):
pastors and teachers. Why? They were given to equip people for the work of ministry.
So here's what I would say. There are equipping gifts in the body of Christ. And I think the
five-fold ministry has an office, a response and accountability within the body of Christ.
But by the way, Christina, this will be hard for some and easy for others. I don't think
(31:59):
that means they become famous. Except for we honor them, of course, as we honor everyone,
but we honor people called to those responsibilities. And we say, your job is to equip the body.
So we have lifted up pastors and teachers, and I honor pastors and teachers. And if I
could use improper English, I is one. I think I've had pastoral titles, I've had teaching
(32:23):
gifts, but I also have an apostolic gift. And that's a really hard thing for some people
to hear because they struggle. Do you mean apostle like Paul and Peter? Me personally,
I don't mean that, but I do mean I'm a builder. I'm a person who extends the kingdom of God
into new domains. Or prophets, what do I mean by prophets? There are people who speak forth
the word of God and see and discern. They're like the men of Issachar who understand the
(32:46):
times and know what to do. There are people who speak words of exhortation and encouragement.
And then there are evangelists. Oh my goodness, Christina, there are people we easily think
of Billy Graham and Greg Laurie and that's, but I want to say there are people who have
a special anointing to lead people to Christ, but also to equip people for the work of ministry.
(33:07):
So what can we do to lift up the fivefold ministry? I'm convinced of this, Christina,
in every single county in America, in every single city in America, he has placed people
who have apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic, pastoral and teaching gifts and assignments.
(33:28):
Let's find them. They may not all exist in one local church, but I know that I know that
I know Christina, that they exist in every community. Let's find them. Let's empower
them. Let's release them. And again, their job is not to build a platform. Their job
is not to become famous. Their role in the body of Christ is to equip people for the
(33:50):
work of ministry so that the body can be built up to maturity.
Yes, absolutely. And you know, it kind of brings this thought to mind right now. God
is so powerfully using media right now to take part in this cross-pollination.
Oh, good.
And so right now, God is raising, especially the apostolic. And I just want to say this
(34:12):
very, very quickly. In the past, in some of the charismatic churches, there's been this
tendency to glorify the apostolic office. But the truth is, if you read the words of
Paul, we are the most to be pitied. We are the ones who are beaten, who are cast out,
who go hungry, and who yet still go on. Because truly apostles, to truly be an apostle, you
(34:37):
are servants of all.
And we all want the part that we read in Scripture about, well, there were signs and wonders
that followed them. What we don't want is the beatings, the imprisonments, and the burden
of all the churches.
Right. Absolutely.
And it's not a menu that you get to pick from selectively.
No, and it's not something that you get to choose yourself. You will often notice who
(34:58):
you are and how he chooses to create you. And so looking at your book with the Reformation,
a lot of times, apostles are reformers, and they teach and they speak with apostolic authority
based on the foundational gospel teachings. So if you see somebody like that, that's who
they are.
A lot of times, the prophetic, like you said, the sons of Issachar, they have the ability
(35:21):
to discern the times and seasons and visions and things like that. But within that, you
can have an apostolic leader with a prophetic gifting and a heart for evangelism. So I hope
really, you know, it can get a little messy.
That's right. That's exactly right. You are spot on with that. And again, we want to be
respectful and honoring. People come from a variety of traditions. I would just say,
(35:45):
whether you're in a reformed, an evangelical, a charismatic, or any other stream, or no
stream, just read the Bible. Read Ephesians 4. Just be really sensitive to what the Lord
is saying and then look for people in your life. Again, those apostolic leaders, I love
both caution and encouragement. I've struggled sometimes, just my own struggle. Christina
(36:06):
is the prophetic. Like, what does that mean? Does that mean somebody's prophesying, you
know, six months from now or 10 years from now? And yet I've had just an increased sense
that in the New Testament, the prophetic is so often a word of exhortation and encouragement
and challenge and coupled with a word of knowledge that, again, you have to read 1 Corinthians.
(36:28):
And I do a lot in my book on these things that I think will be helpful to the readers.
I think so too. Absolutely. Well, we could just go on and on and on. I've loved this
conversation. I feel like you and I could be great friends. I think we could. Is there
anything burning on your heart today that you'd like to say directly to our listeners?
(36:49):
I want to speak a word particularly, thank you, Christina, for the opportunity. And I
want to speak a word specifically to those of your listeners who know Jesus and who love
Him. I want to say this. It is the heart of God to love and redeem the world, not to condemn
the world. And what I mean by that is not that God is not holy and just and righteous
and that there are moral laws in the universe that God established. I absolutely understand
(37:14):
and believe that. But I think sometimes, Christina, when people describe Christians in our current
world, they use four words, mean, angry, condemning, and judgmental. Now, I think that the media
has sort of tainted that media so critical, as you said earlier. But I want to say this.
Christians are not mean, angry, condemning, and judgmental. If we have the heart of Jesus,
(37:38):
we're redemptive, we're loving, we are deeply burdened to see people come to a saving knowledge.
To go back to that 2 Corinthians passage, we're literally ambassadors of reconciliation,
begging people to be reconciled to God. And that's my hope for those of us who love Jesus
and name His name.
Amen. I couldn't agree more. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said those
(38:01):
of us who have received His heart.
Yes.
Because there's a really big difference in calling yourself a Christian and being a Christ
follower. There's a very big difference.
That's right.
And unfortunately, some people have taken some things and they have been that way to
people. I've seen it. My heart truly goes out to them because that is not the heart
(38:24):
of God. I echo your words. Thank you for saying that. Would you pray for our listeners today,
whatever God lays on your heart?
I'm good.
Father, I thank you for your great love for us. Jesus, I thank you for coming to earth
and dying on the cross for our sins so that we could be forgiven and set free. I thank
(38:48):
you for being raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. So Holy Spirit,
I thank you for indwelling those of us who know Jesus.
So God, I pray right now that for those who are listening to this, who know you, who love
you, who have received your love and forgiveness, I pray that you would just fill us up with
your grace, that we would literally be grace ambassadors every day to the server in the
(39:14):
restaurant, to the attendant at the gas station, to the person at the gym, to our neighbor,
to our family members. Just fill us up with grace and help us to be your ambassadors.
And Lord, I know there are probably many, many who will listen to this who say, man,
I don't even know what that means to have a relationship with God, to have a personal,
(39:35):
experiential encounter, and to have the love of God to pour into my life. So Jesus, right
now, I pray that this would be that moment. Would you come to that man? Would you come
to that woman? Would you come to that boy or that girl and just speak to them? Let them
know that they are deeply and richly loved by you.
(39:56):
And now, Holy Spirit, I thank you for this conversation. I thank you for Christina. I
thank you that her deepest heart is to reveal you. Holy Spirit, would you minister to her?
Thank you for her ministry. And I pray, God, that you'd increase favor and expand the lives
that she could touch, because I know that she carries your heart and I'm grateful for
(40:19):
her. So we thank you again for the privilege of this conversation. We ask that you take
our words and that you'd multiply them in every way that honors your name. And we ask
all this in the name of Jesus, who loves us and gave himself for us. Amen.
Amen. Thank you so much. That was so good. I know that's going to touch so many people
(40:40):
out there.
You're welcome. God bless you. It's been such a rich conversation.
Oh, you too. I've loved it. Thank you so much.
Thank you, Christina.
Well, I hope and I pray today's episode has blessed you. I will have links from today's
podcast and resources in the show notes on cpnchose.com under Revealing Jesus with Christina
(41:01):
Perera. There you'll find additional resources to connect with us and our special guest,
Dr. John Jackson. And don't forget to pick up a copy of his new book, Grace Ambassador,
Bringing Heaven to Earth. Until next week, may grace and peace be multiplied to you in
the knowledge of Jesus. God bless.
(41:23):
Beloved, let me introduce you to my King. He is altogether lovely. No matter which way
you turn him, he is perfection personified. He is velvet and steel. He is meekness and
majesty. He is glory and humility. He is kindness and strength. He is altogether lovely. And
(41:46):
he is my King. And he can be yours as well. All day long, he holds his hand that you might
take, that you might turn, one step, one grasp, one yes, one breath away from the arms of
your loving Savior. Beloved, if you hear him, do not harden your heart. The Bible declares
(42:07):
that not one of us is guaranteed another moment upon this earth. So pray this prayer with
me today and run into the arms of the one who loves you, who knows you best.
Father, I ask you to forgive me for all of my sin, for all of the places that I have
fallen short, God, of your glorious standard. I ask you now to send your Son into my heart
(42:31):
to be the forgiveness of my sin, to be my redemption, to be my righteousness, to be
my holiness, to be my sanctification. I ask you to forgive me, to cleanse me, to fill
me with your Spirit, your power, your glory, that I might bring glory to your name, Father.
(42:53):
I thank you that I receive all of this by faith and the Son of God, who loved me and
who gave himself up for me. I thank you that I am now a child of God, fully forgiven, fully
righteous, fully holy in your eyes. And I ask you to help me walk out this life in a
(43:15):
way that pleases and honors you, Father. I thank you, Jesus, for all that you've done.
I thank you for your love, for your kindness, for your great joy in saving me. And I thank
you, Father, and I thank you, Holy Spirit. And I pray all of these things in your beautiful
(43:39):
Son's name. Amen. If you've just prayed that prayer for the first time, I want to congratulate
you. You are now a child of God, and all things are now yours. Keep listening to Revealing
Jesus. Find a good Bible translation that makes sense to you. And keep hearing about
(44:02):
our beautiful Savior Jesus. Please let us know. We want to continue to pray for you.
And we want to send you a free PDF copy of our New Believer Workbook. Just go to Christina
Perera dot org slash welcome hyphen home. Enter your email address and we will be happy
(44:24):
to send this free gift. And continue to pray for your journey. God bless.
I sincerely hope and pray today's episode has blessed you. Now it's your turn to continue
the conversation. We are all evangelists of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Like this episode,
rate it, share it with a friend. If it's impacted your life, let them know that you
(44:49):
want it to do the same in theirs. Help spread the word of the good news of Jesus. Subscribe
to the mailing list and get episodes, articles, downloads, and more sent right to you. Link
in show notes or just text Jesus to 1-833-815-7778. Again, that's Jesus, 1-833-815-7778. We would
(45:16):
love to connect with you on social media. You can find us at Christina Perera Ministries
on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. Until next week, may grace and peace be multiplied
into you in the knowledge of Jesus. God bless.
Welcome to Revealing Jesus. Are you hungry to learn more about our beautiful Savior Jesus?
(00:06):
I am your host, Christina Perera, lover of Jesus, apostolic leader, licensed and ordained
minister, author, podcaster, and Kingdom Party planner. Did you know that the Bible declares
that grace and peace are multiplied to us in the knowledge of Jesus? And that simply
means the more we learn about our beautiful Savior, the more we will experience all He
(00:30):
died to give us. Join me for all things the King and his Kingdom, including revelatory
teaching, interviews with Bible ministers, media leaders, authors, and more. Come discover
the beauty of God displayed all across the body of Christ. Together we are revealing
more of Jesus to a hurting world today.
(00:50):
Hey everybody, thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode of Revealing Jesus
with Christina Perera. I am your host Christina and I'm so excited to have you with me here
today. I hope and I pray that you are doing well right where you are and enjoying the
continuously flowing favor of grace pouring from our beautiful Savior and Father in Heaven.
(01:11):
I've got a great show for you today. We're going to continue our summer throwback series
and I've been loving this series, throwing it back to my favorite episodes as the Lord
leads and he's put this one on my heart this week. This was a conversation that I got to
have with Dr. John Jackson on his book Discovering Your Destiny as an Ambassador of Heaven. It's
(01:33):
called Grace Ambassador, Bringing Heaven to Earth. And we had this incredible conversation
about how God has invited us into the new covenant of grace, the priesthood of all believers
and reformation in the church. And it's an amazing, beautiful thing. You know, the Kingdom
of God is an active participation kind of kingdom and you are created to be an ambassador
(01:56):
of heaven telling people about the good news, the grace, the gospel, the God spell, the
good news that it sounds too good to be true but it is. And it's all about how God in
his goodness and his grace and his mercy freely gives to all who believe. Ours is an obedience
(02:17):
of faith. Yes, an obedience of faith. Thank you, Jesus. And it's such an encouraging
conversation so I invite you to tune in. This episode will help ground you in what the gospel
truly is and help inspire you to fulfill your God-given destiny as an ambassador of heaven.
But before we get started, I want to give a quick shout out to our Christina Perera Ministry
(02:41):
sponsors. Gopher Ministries who provides all of our equipment rental. Life Changing Productions
who helps put together evangelistic events to reach our city for Jesus. Harvest Family
Network through which I am licensed and ordained. And Davis Financial Services who does all
of our financial accounting. I hope and I pray that these episodes have blessed you.
(03:01):
I pray that as you're listening, your faith is encouraged and inspired and I invite you
to sow back into this ministry so we can keep bringing you these faith building episodes.
You can find out more information on how to sow back into this ministry at christinaperera.org
slash donate or link in the show notes. Let's jump back into my conversation with Dr. John
(03:25):
Jackson. Hey everybody. Thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode of Revealing
Jesus with Christina Perera. I am your host Christina and I'm so excited to have you
with me here today. I hope and I pray that you are doing well right where you are and
enjoying the continuously flowing favor of grace pouring from our beautiful Savior and
(03:46):
Father in heaven. I've got a great show for you today. I have an amazing leader in the
body of Christ with me. He is the president of Jessup University and the author of the
book Grace Ambassador, Bringing Heaven to Earth. I have with me here today Dr. John
Jackson. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much Christina. I just have been looking
(04:08):
forward to this opportunity to talk with you, to chat with your listeners and share some
things that God is doing in our planet, sometimes right next door. I love that so much. You
know, it's such an honor to have you with me here today. I've loved reading through
Grace Ambassador. I told you earlier when we were just talking, I absolutely love the
title to describe that New Testament believer today as a grace ambassador. I love it. Well,
(04:34):
I thank you for that so much. And I think I indicated, you know, for me, I've been carrying
what I would describe almost as a burden, like a burning in my heart. Like I have a
vision for this, but I have not been using the words grace ambassador until just in the
last several years. The word ambassador maybe is not something that a lot of us here in
the West are as familiar with. We think about government, but boy, Christina, the scripture
(04:58):
is full of references to how we represent God in the everyday. And that idea of being
an ambassador, I think it's really rich. So good. So good. Well, I've told our listeners
a lot about you today. Can you share with them something personal just to help get to
know you? Yeah. So I know sometimes people are worried about their age. I'm not. I'm
(05:19):
61 and I've been married for 43 years. Now I've got a bunch of kids too. So if I say
to somebody, gosh, so-and-so got married at 18, that's usually a really scary thing. In
my case, marriage matured me and my poor precious wife had to end up maturing me as well. So
we've been married 43 years. We have five children. We have four grandchildren, three
(05:43):
granddaughters and one grandson. And then we've got one more grandchild, be another
granddaughter on the way. So we're so excited. I tell people all the time, I love Jesus.
I love family and I love the church. I'm going to say I love the church. I mean, I love the
church big, small, gathered, distributed. I'm just a lover of the people of God everywhere
(06:05):
in everyday life. I love that so much. I love that so many people, when they come on here,
they talk about their families. And I think it's so precious to me, the idea of family.
And it's so straight out of the heart of God, that unity that connected, that oneness even
between the Godhead. I love that so much.
(06:25):
And I do think it is that the core and the heart of God, and I want to give an encouraging
word right now, if maybe a listener's out there saying, gosh, I don't have the mom and
the dad and the two kids and the dog and the cat and the white picket fence that we all
envision as family. Well, the scripture says this, God sets the lonely in families. And
part of what I believe is we all have a natural biological family. And sometimes that was
(06:46):
awesome, and sometimes that was awful. But He also makes us a part of His family. When
we come into relationship with Him, we get new brothers and sisters or more brothers
and sisters. We get new moms and dads. And so, you know, it's the heart of God to have
you be in a family, whether that's your biological family and a family of faith, or whether that's
(07:08):
simply your family of faith because your biological family has had some challenges that have been
disruptive. I just want everybody to hear, God sets the lonely in families. And that's
His heart for you is to have some relationships that are loving and meaningful.
Amen. I can't tell you how many times I've hung on to that scripture. You know, He's
so good and He's so kind and He will step in and He will be that loving father to you
(07:34):
or that tender friend that you need at just the right moment. That's who He is.
And Christina, I love, I don't know you that well and you don't know me that well, but
I just already know that you have an intimacy with the Father, that you know His heart,
that you felt His tender touch. And it's confusing to some people. But while scripture refers
to God primarily in the masculine, what we might think of, quote, some feminine characteristics
(07:59):
are regularly and consistently applied to God throughout scripture. So I think the fact
is that God is strong and tender. God is bold and protective and He is nurturing and comforting.
There's no dissonance there. That is the nature and character of God. And if I could, without
trying to preach too much, in the very beginning, it said, let us make man in our image, male
(08:24):
and female, He created them. So that's the nature of the Godhead is that He embodies
all that we might imagine as the best, the most holy of maleness and femaleness in the
best sense of those words, not sometimes, sadly, what we've made them, but the best
sense of those words.
I'm so glad that you mentioned that because it is true. He possesses both that feminine
(08:46):
and that masculine, and He always uses it correctly in the right way and with such grace.
Everything He does is with such grace. He's authoritative without being harsh. He's kind
without being servile. He is beautiful while still masculine.
Yes. Love, love, love that.
(09:07):
Yeah, so good. Well, I've told our listeners so much about you. I have to ask, how did
you meet our beautiful Savior Jesus?
Thank you for asking. And I'm a little embarrassed about what I'm about ready to share, but it
is my story. I was born and raised in small to medium-sized Baptist churches, literally,
(09:29):
Christina, and I'm not doing one ounce of exaggeration here. Between the ages of zero
and 16, I went to church on Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and Wednesday night, and I
was never allowed to miss. My parents were pastors, and they just said they had committed
to the Lord. We would always be in church. So you might think, by the way, that I'd be
rebellious, but the exact opposite was true for me. I was age seven. The Lord worked in
(09:54):
a church worship service. I went forward, and I'm ashamed to admit this. This is the
funny part for me. I went forward. I told my dad that I wanted to rededicate my life
to Christ. And my dad said, well, son, you've never prayed to receive Christ. And what I
told my dad was, oh, I didn't know you had to do these things in order. So here's the
(10:15):
craziness of the churches I grew up in. We had invitations every single week at the end
of the service where people could come forward, and I knew God had moved on my heart as a
seven-year-old. What I didn't know was that of the four things you could do at the end
of the Baptist churches I grew up in, you could receive Christ, you could rededicate
your life to Christ, you could ask to be baptized, or you could ask to join the church. Those
(10:37):
are the four things I knew about. And so I didn't know you had to do them in order. I
just knew I wanted to respond to Jesus. So Christina, and when I was seven, I prayed
to receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior. 1968, I was baptized in November of that year. But
it was many years later, by about age 14. And I know that sounds terribly, terribly
(10:58):
young, just like age seven does. But Christina, at age 14, I truly did re-consecrate my life
to Jesus. I was an athlete in school. I was somewhat popular, pretty good in academics,
pretty good in sports. And I remember thinking, Christina, I'm a pastor's kid. My life is
very different than a lot of my other friends. But I want to faithfully live and love Jesus
(11:24):
and live for Him every day. So I rededicated my life. One of my memories of that stage,
Christina, is that I took my Bible with me on every away game that we were playing. I
was an athlete. And so when we traveled on buses, I would bring my Bible and read my
Bible before the games and tried to witness and share Christ with my friends. And so I
(11:46):
gave my life to Jesus at age seven. I rededicated my life at age 14. And when I was 16, it's
a much longer story, but when I was 16, Christina, I felt God calling me to be a pastor. And
that is not what I wanted. I wanted to be a pro baseball player. And I know this for
some of your audience, maybe this language will sound strange, but Christina, I heard
(12:07):
the Lord. The Lord spoke to me. It wasn't an audible voice, but in a way that I've never
doubted, He spoke to me and said, I want you to serve me full time with your life as a
pastor. And I said, yes. And that was the beginning of the journey that now is 45 years
later.
I love that so much. You know, all of our stories are so different. And I just want
(12:29):
to encourage you out there that Jesus has a plan and a purpose for your relationship
with Him. And just like you were sharing, it's up and down. It's a back and forth. It's
not always in the right order, according to some, but it's always perfect and it's always
on time and it's always His way.
I love that you're saying that. And I want to just add maybe one more thing to listeners.
(12:52):
When you get to the point in your life where you realize that God has been pursuing you
and you say yes and you surrender to Him and say, you know, God, what is your plan for
my life? When all that happens, I've always had this experience, Christina, that when
I'm walking with people on that journey, they look back and they say, you know, I didn't
know it, but God actually was meeting me at several different points in my life. I remember
(13:17):
when this happened. I remember when a person said that word. I remember when that experience
happened and they can kind of look back and see the footprints or see the handprints of
God on their life in a way that maybe they didn't recognize at the time, but when they
do come to the point of surrender, they're able to look back and it's undeniable that
(13:38):
God has been pursuing them.
I love that you mentioned that. That's so important. You know, I've looked back and
seen it in my own life and I've heard so many say it. And I think sometimes we take things
for granted and we have to realize that He is so intentional towards us and He knows
how to woo each and every one of us into the relationship, into what He has for us. And,
(14:01):
you know, it's so interesting because He deals with each one of us so personally. I can talk
to a friend and they're like, oh, He's this way with me. He's always true Jesus style.
And you know, with others, He's always so tender and kind in different ways. And it's
just so interesting and beautiful. And that's why this is revealing Jesus because, you know,
(14:21):
He is revealing Himself in each one of our lives. And it's such a privilege and honor
to sit down and hear from so many different people laying down their lives for this living,
loving Savior.
And really, Christina, as you said, it's a privilege and it's also an amazing recognition
that even though people are very different, you might look at somebody's background. You
(14:45):
know, I grew up in church. Other people grew up in the streets. I grew up with people pushing
me towards God and maybe other people grew up with people pushing them away from God.
But whatever the journey has been to realize that God makes Himself known and that He loves
deeply and fully each and every one of us. I just think of one of those simple scriptures
(15:07):
in the Bible that I'm sure you and your listeners think a lot. John 3 16, God so loved the world
that He gave. And then it goes on to talk about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins.
But then John 3 17 says, God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world,
but to save the world, that the world through Him might be saved. And wow, every single
(15:31):
person, no matter where our journey started or the middle or wherever we feel right now,
God loves you and He's pursuing you. He cares deeply and passionately about you.
Yes, absolutely. So good. So good. Well, I have absolutely enjoyed reading through your
(15:51):
book, Grace Ambassador. I felt like the heart of this was really after reforming the church
and into what God always created it to be. Can you tell me a little bit about what you
hope people see in this book? Thank you so much, Christina. And thank you
for recognizing, by the way, my not so subtle agenda to see the church reformed. You know,
(16:16):
if you're a history person, you probably know a little bit about the first reformation was
back in the 1500s. And one of the things I say in the book, Christina, is that in the
first reformation, I think we got it pretty well that it's about grace received, that
salvation is by grace that we receive through faith. There's nothing you do to earn God's
favor. It comes with His compassion and love and tenderness and He gives us forgiveness.
(16:39):
So that's grace received. I think that we didn't do very well in the last 500 years
understanding not just grace received, which is so critical. It's the foundation. But we
didn't understand grace distributed. And here's what I mean by that. Christina, I kind of
want to change the metric of what's going on in the church. And there's a passage in
(17:01):
first John that talks about babes and sons and fathers. And so I want you to think about
this babes, sons and daughters, fathers and mothers. It's sad to me, Christina, that we
often think about people spiritually. And if you were to consider most churches, we
may have some babes, we may have some sons and daughters, but very few fathers and mothers
(17:26):
in a spiritual sense. And what I want to say, Christina, is that God longs for every person
to grow to maturity. He longs for every person to be a fully reproducing carrier of the grace
of heaven. God loves people so much that he didn't leave the planet alone. He sent Jesus.
(17:48):
And then after Jesus left, he said, it's to your advantage that I go because I'm going
to send you another helper, the comforter. And this is so strange, Christina. I mean,
it just boggles my mind to even say these words, but it's straight from the Bible. The
same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in us if we're followers of Christ.
(18:08):
And so I think what Jesus did when he left is he gave his spirit to everybody who loves
him. So I think Christina, in your life, and I know this about you, my life and everybody
who loves Jesus, in your everyday walking around life, your work, your family, your
neighborhood, your gym, whatever you do for recreation, you carry the presence of God.
(18:33):
You literally carry heaven to everyday places on earth.
So good. You know, that's absolutely what Jesus died to give us. He died to give us
his spirit and bring him into that relationship with him. And not only that, but he gave us
a spirit so that we can continue the ministry of reconciliation.
(18:54):
Yes, Christina, that's that core passage in second Corinthians chapter five. It starts
at verse 16, 17, which says that we actually are new creations in Christ. And it even uses
the phrase we are ambassadors of reconciliation. It's like in that passage, Christina, it says
God was literally begging us through God or begging people to be reconciled to God.
(19:16):
Yeah, so good. Yes, so good. That's absolutely it. And you know, what compels people to come
into the Father is the goodness of God. It is the grace of God. It is the mercy. It is
the favor. It is the forgiveness. It's everything we don't deserve. And yet he gives it to us
freely because that's who he is. Amen. And amen. I want to say this, you know, Romans
(19:42):
2, 4 says it's his kindness that leads us to repentance. And Christina, I got to be
honest and I love my Baptist heritage. I absolutely honor my Baptist heritage, but I knew a lot
about Jesus dying on the cross for my sins. And I knew that what that meant is that I
could be forgiven and I spend eternity with the Father and not eternity separated from
(20:06):
him. But to be honest, just to be very honest, I didn't know hardly anything about the fact
that not only did Jesus come to die on the cross, he came to demonstrate what intimacy
with the Father was all about in everyday human experience. When you're full of the
Holy Spirit, you literally are walking and talking with God every day. And Romans 2,
(20:30):
4 says it's actually not me thundering judgment that brings people to God. It's the kindness
of God that brings us to repentance. When you see how much God loves you, Christina,
when you see how much he deeply, radically, gloriously loves you, by the way, and again,
we don't know each other that well, I don't know your stuff and you don't know my stuff,
(20:55):
but he does. And in the midst of all of our stuff, our brokenness, our pain, he loves
us so deeply, so fully and longs for us to be made whole. Wow. That's what leads us to
repentance.
So good. So good. And you know, that's one of the most beautiful things I love about
(21:17):
the character of God, that he's so kind and so merciful to us, even when we don't deserve
it. You know, I too grew up in the Baptist church. I was saved at the age of seven and
I was called to preach sitting on a Baptist pew. Wow. And I had to go through a lot of
training about the things of the Spirit. I think you're right. I think some areas of
(21:42):
the church have done a marvelous job evangelizing to the foot of the cross, but we've not gone
fully through to the ascension. And it's really important that we go through fully to the
ascension if we are to see the church reformed, if we are to see the world around us reformed,
(22:03):
because without the power of the Holy Spirit, we can't meet the needs of the people around
us. And by that, I mean, we can't minister healing, we can't minister deliverance, we
can't minister anything that they need. And you know, that's why so much of my ministry
and so much of revealing Jesus is encouraging everyday believers to go out into the world
(22:29):
and reach the world around them. You had some marvelous quotes up on the grace distributed.
And I just want to read this real quick. The reformers also said that they believed in
the priesthood of all believers with direct access to God, to scripture and to ministry.
While glorious ministry has come these past 500 years, mingled with tragedy and pain,
(22:54):
the Protestant church has also demonstrated by our behavior that we do not fundamentally
believe in the priesthood of all believers as we have declared. Can you talk about that?
Oh, yes, I can. And boy, your words are just stirring me. You don't know this, but my wife
is a trained inner healing minister. And so many times we have what we often call a truncated
(23:18):
gospel. It's a gospel of salvation, but it's not a gospel of healing and deliverance. And
I really believe that the heart of God is to redeem, to make the broken whole and to
be able to carry his love and grace and healing into every atmosphere that we go. So when
I talk about the reformation specifically, Christina, again, I believe in the priesthood
(23:43):
of all believers. We have every single person who knows Jesus has direct access to the Father.
And we said that we believe that. And again, I had the privilege of being licensed and
ordained and Baptist settings at an early age. And so thanks be to God. I appreciate
that. And we have good doctrine, but Christina, quite frankly, I think that just as you said,
(24:05):
I'm going to use your phrase. We've taken people to the foot of the cross in some settings.
And that's wonderful. So wonderful. But we have not gone all the way through to the ascension.
And the reason why Jesus told his disciples to remain in Jerusalem is that the Holy Spirit
would come upon them with power. When Jesus says greater works than I do, you will do.
What could he mean by that? Oh my goodness. But here's the truth. There are now billions
(24:31):
of followers of Jesus on the planet. And literally we have the power to bring heaven to earth.
It's not about us. It's never, ever, ever about us. It's about him. So I love your show,
revealing Jesus. It's about making much of Jesus. The scripture tells us that Jesus himself
said if he was lifted up, he would draw all men unto him. Healing, grace, atonement, salvation
(24:56):
are found in Jesus and in his cross, but also the gift of the Holy Spirit comes. So when
I say that we failed, what I mean is this. We believe, we don't admit it out loud, Christina,
but by our practice, we actually have shown that we don't believe in the priesthood of
all believers. We believe that amazingly anointed teacher, that gifted worship leader, that
(25:18):
great healing evangelist, those are the amazing people. But us every day, regular folks who
sit in the chairs, sit in the pews, listen by radio or by TV, we're just regular folks.
And Christina, I'm on a mission. I'm on a mission for what I sometimes call a full employment
policy in the body of Christ. Amen. So let me just quickly say Ephesians 4. God gave
(25:42):
apostles and prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to equip the people for the work
of ministry so that the body can be built up to full maturity. And then here's one more
verse by the proper working of each individual part. Christina, the body of Christ, the household
of faith does not fulfill its ultimate kingdom of God potential unless every single person
(26:07):
discovers why. Why did God make me? What? What has he called me to do? Who am I? Why
am I? And we hear his assignment. And that's why Christina, it's so exciting. Every day
there's a conversation. Every day there's an opportunity to pray. Every day there's
an action we can take where we get to bring heaven to earth. Amen. Amen, amen, amen.
(26:34):
You know, I'm so excited that you're saying that. You're preaching after my own heart
because God has hidden gifts and abilities and talents and fivefold ministers all around
us. And we need absolutely every single one of us. I can't fulfill my call without you.
You can't fulfill your call without me. You know, I can't fulfill my call without Joe
(26:55):
down the street and being who God created him to be because God has so authored it in
this end time that there would be this cross pollination, this building up of the body
of Christ until we come into the fullness of who we are in him. I love that. Can I share
a very quick practical story? Yes, absolutely. And then I want to talk about the fivefold
(27:19):
ministry and how you want to see that reformed and where you think we need to go from there.
So good. So here's a quick story. People say, well, how can I do this? Let me give you one
illustration. I used to be a server in a restaurant. I worked in a small little diner many years
ago. And so I was a short order cook and did some serving. So because of my job now being
president of a university, I'm out in restaurants meeting with people a lot to go. And I've
(27:41):
done this before. But in seven months ago, Christine, I started saying to the servers,
you know, I asked their name and I say, I like to pray for my food when we receive it.
But beyond that, I've also decided I want to pray for people who serve us. So is there
one thing I could pray for you today? Christina, that's all I say. In the last seven months,
I've had people literally stop and then tears start coming down their face. I've had a couple
(28:06):
times people said, excuse me, just a moment. They walk away from the table. I think, oh
my goodness, I've offended them. But actually, they come back and they say, you have no idea.
You have no idea what I'm going through right now. And the idea that somebody would pray
for me and then others immediately share. Sometimes people are awkward. And so I just
give you a quick little line I use. If somebody says, I don't know, I don't really have anything
(28:27):
to pray for or I'm not really into prayer. I'll say this. Okay. I'm going to pray that
today you will receive more tips than ever before. You know, no server is going to object
to that because having been a server, tips is what you live on. So I just say that, Christine,
to say in the everyday, in the everyday, just bring the love, the grace, the kindness of
(28:49):
the Lord, offer to pray. Sometimes I've had really amazing conversations. Other times
it's just literally 60 seconds. But I think we bring the presence of God into those everyday
simple circumstances.
I love that you shared that. And just listening to you share that was just so breaking my
heart because if we have eyes to see and ears to hear, people are so hungry. I get agitated
(29:15):
when I hear people say things like, oh, this younger generation isn't hungry for God. But
the truth is that they are. They are so hungry.
Well, Christina, there's a recent report from George Barna that came out on millennials.
I'll just give you one stat from that. Seventy eight percent of millennials are deeply longing
for their life purpose. Christina, that should be so instead of being defeating, that should
(29:40):
be so encouraging to the people of God. That should be so encouraging. Seventy eight percent
say I desperately want to know my why. Why am I here?
Yeah. You know, the truth is that discovering your purpose in Christ and what He's created
you for, there's nothing like it. I talk to people on this podcast all the time and we
(30:02):
always joke around and say things like when you live your life for God, you're never going
to be bored. He's constantly doing things that just wow you. And He's constantly asking
you to take steps of faith and take risk and go out in over your head where He will show
up and do the impossible in your life. And it's truly the most exciting place that you
(30:24):
can be. And I'm a millennial and I just want to say out there, this is for you. This is
for absolutely every single person who would believe. That's what Jesus died for.
So, so good. I'm just right there with you.
Well, back to my other question. The Lord has, the Holy Spirit's taken me through to
(30:46):
the five full gifts. Yes. How can, you know, traditionally in the past in the church, we've
seen the teacher and we've seen the pastor. How can we see the apostle, the prophet, the
evangelist in their rightful places?
Yes. So first of all, I think just saying this, you know, when we think about church
movements, we say, oh, that's a word-based church. Or we go to other movements and say,
(31:11):
wow, they're full of the Spirit. I just want to use other words for just a moment. I want
to be full of grace and full of truth, just like Jesus. And I want to be full of the word
and full of the Spirit, just like Jesus. Your show's about revealing Jesus. Your conversation
is about revealing Jesus. I want to be full of the word and full of the Spirit. So the
word in Ephesians 4 tells us there's apostles, there's prophets, there's evangelists, there's
(31:37):
pastors and teachers. Why? They were given to equip people for the work of ministry.
So here's what I would say. There are equipping gifts in the body of Christ. And I think the
five-fold ministry has an office, a response and accountability within the body of Christ.
But by the way, Christina, this will be hard for some and easy for others. I don't think
(31:59):
that means they become famous. Except for we honor them, of course, as we honor everyone,
but we honor people called to those responsibilities. And we say, your job is to equip the body.
So we have lifted up pastors and teachers, and I honor pastors and teachers. And if I
could use improper English, I is one. I think I've had pastoral titles, I've had teaching
(32:23):
gifts, but I also have an apostolic gift. And that's a really hard thing for some people
to hear because they struggle. Do you mean apostle like Paul and Peter? Me personally,
I don't mean that, but I do mean I'm a builder. I'm a person who extends the kingdom of God
into new domains. Or prophets, what do I mean by prophets? There are people who speak forth
the word of God and see and discern. They're like the men of Issachar who understand the
(32:46):
times and know what to do. There are people who speak words of exhortation and encouragement.
And then there are evangelists. Oh my goodness, Christina, there are people we easily think
of Billy Graham and Greg Laurie and that's, but I want to say there are people who have
a special anointing to lead people to Christ, but also to equip people for the work of ministry.
(33:07):
So what can we do to lift up the fivefold ministry? I'm convinced of this, Christina,
in every single county in America, in every single city in America, he has placed people
who have apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic, pastoral and teaching gifts and assignments.
(33:28):
Let's find them. They may not all exist in one local church, but I know that I know that
I know Christina, that they exist in every community. Let's find them. Let's empower
them. Let's release them. And again, their job is not to build a platform. Their job
is not to become famous. Their role in the body of Christ is to equip people for the
(33:50):
work of ministry so that the body can be built up to maturity.
Yes, absolutely. And you know, it kind of brings this thought to mind right now. God
is so powerfully using media right now to take part in this cross-pollination.
Oh, good.
And so right now, God is raising, especially the apostolic. And I just want to say this
(34:12):
very, very quickly. In the past, in some of the charismatic churches, there's been this
tendency to glorify the apostolic office. But the truth is, if you read the words of
Paul, we are the most to be pitied. We are the ones who are beaten, who are cast out,
who go hungry, and who yet still go on. Because truly apostles, to truly be an apostle, you
(34:37):
are servants of all.
And we all want the part that we read in Scripture about, well, there were signs and wonders
that followed them. What we don't want is the beatings, the imprisonments, and the burden
of all the churches.
Right. Absolutely.
And it's not a menu that you get to pick from selectively.
No, and it's not something that you get to choose yourself. You will often notice who
(34:58):
you are and how he chooses to create you. And so looking at your book with the Reformation,
a lot of times, apostles are reformers, and they teach and they speak with apostolic authority
based on the foundational gospel teachings. So if you see somebody like that, that's who
they are.
A lot of times, the prophetic, like you said, the sons of Issachar, they have the ability
(35:21):
to discern the times and seasons and visions and things like that. But within that, you
can have an apostolic leader with a prophetic gifting and a heart for evangelism. So I hope
really, you know, it can get a little messy.
That's right. That's exactly right. You are spot on with that. And again, we want to be
respectful and honoring. People come from a variety of traditions. I would just say,
(35:45):
whether you're in a reformed, an evangelical, a charismatic, or any other stream, or no
stream, just read the Bible. Read Ephesians 4. Just be really sensitive to what the Lord
is saying and then look for people in your life. Again, those apostolic leaders, I love
both caution and encouragement. I've struggled sometimes, just my own struggle. Christina
(36:06):
is the prophetic. Like, what does that mean? Does that mean somebody's prophesying, you
know, six months from now or 10 years from now? And yet I've had just an increased sense
that in the New Testament, the prophetic is so often a word of exhortation and encouragement
and challenge and coupled with a word of knowledge that, again, you have to read 1 Corinthians.
(36:28):
And I do a lot in my book on these things that I think will be helpful to the readers.
I think so too. Absolutely. Well, we could just go on and on and on. I've loved this
conversation. I feel like you and I could be great friends. I think we could. Is there
anything burning on your heart today that you'd like to say directly to our listeners?
(36:49):
I want to speak a word particularly, thank you, Christina, for the opportunity. And I
want to speak a word specifically to those of your listeners who know Jesus and who love
Him. I want to say this. It is the heart of God to love and redeem the world, not to condemn
the world. And what I mean by that is not that God is not holy and just and righteous
and that there are moral laws in the universe that God established. I absolutely understand
(37:14):
and believe that. But I think sometimes, Christina, when people describe Christians in our current
world, they use four words, mean, angry, condemning, and judgmental. Now, I think that the media
has sort of tainted that media so critical, as you said earlier. But I want to say this.
Christians are not mean, angry, condemning, and judgmental. If we have the heart of Jesus,
(37:38):
we're redemptive, we're loving, we are deeply burdened to see people come to a saving knowledge.
To go back to that 2 Corinthians passage, we're literally ambassadors of reconciliation,
begging people to be reconciled to God. And that's my hope for those of us who love Jesus
and name His name.
Amen. I couldn't agree more. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said those
(38:01):
of us who have received His heart.
Yes.
Because there's a really big difference in calling yourself a Christian and being a Christ
follower. There's a very big difference.
That's right.
And unfortunately, some people have taken some things and they have been that way to
people. I've seen it. My heart truly goes out to them because that is not the heart
(38:24):
of God. I echo your words. Thank you for saying that. Would you pray for our listeners today,
whatever God lays on your heart?
I'm good.
Father, I thank you for your great love for us. Jesus, I thank you for coming to earth
and dying on the cross for our sins so that we could be forgiven and set free. I thank
(38:48):
you for being raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. So Holy Spirit,
I thank you for indwelling those of us who know Jesus.
So God, I pray right now that for those who are listening to this, who know you, who love
you, who have received your love and forgiveness, I pray that you would just fill us up with
your grace, that we would literally be grace ambassadors every day to the server in the
(39:14):
restaurant, to the attendant at the gas station, to the person at the gym, to our neighbor,
to our family members. Just fill us up with grace and help us to be your ambassadors.
And Lord, I know there are probably many, many who will listen to this who say, man,
I don't even know what that means to have a relationship with God, to have a personal,
(39:35):
experiential encounter, and to have the love of God to pour into my life. So Jesus, right
now, I pray that this would be that moment. Would you come to that man? Would you come
to that woman? Would you come to that boy or that girl and just speak to them? Let them
know that they are deeply and richly loved by you.
(39:56):
And now, Holy Spirit, I thank you for this conversation. I thank you for Christina. I
thank you that her deepest heart is to reveal you. Holy Spirit, would you minister to her?
Thank you for her ministry. And I pray, God, that you'd increase favor and expand the lives
that she could touch, because I know that she carries your heart and I'm grateful for
(40:19):
her. So we thank you again for the privilege of this conversation. We ask that you take
our words and that you'd multiply them in every way that honors your name. And we ask
all this in the name of Jesus, who loves us and gave himself for us. Amen.
Amen. Thank you so much. That was so good. I know that's going to touch so many people
(40:40):
out there.
You're welcome. God bless you. It's been such a rich conversation.
Oh, you too. I've loved it. Thank you so much.
Thank you, Christina.
Well, I hope and I pray today's episode has blessed you. I will have links from today's
podcast and resources in the show notes on cpnchose.com under Revealing Jesus with Christina
(41:01):
Perera. There you'll find additional resources to connect with us and our special guest,
Dr. John Jackson. And don't forget to pick up a copy of his new book, Grace Ambassador,
Bringing Heaven to Earth. Until next week, may grace and peace be multiplied to you in
the knowledge of Jesus. God bless.
(41:23):
Beloved, let me introduce you to my King. He is altogether lovely. No matter which way
you turn him, he is perfection personified. He is velvet and steel. He is meekness and
majesty. He is glory and humility. He is kindness and strength. He is altogether lovely. And
(41:46):
he is my King. And he can be yours as well. All day long, he holds his hand that you might
take, that you might turn, one step, one grasp, one yes, one breath away from the arms of
your loving Savior. Beloved, if you hear him, do not harden your heart. The Bible declares
(42:07):
that not one of us is guaranteed another moment upon this earth. So pray this prayer with
me today and run into the arms of the one who loves you, who knows you best.
Father, I ask you to forgive me for all of my sin, for all of the places that I have
fallen short, God, of your glorious standard. I ask you now to send your Son into my heart
(42:31):
to be the forgiveness of my sin, to be my redemption, to be my righteousness, to be
my holiness, to be my sanctification. I ask you to forgive me, to cleanse me, to fill
me with your Spirit, your power, your glory, that I might bring glory to your name, Father.
(42:53):
I thank you that I receive all of this by faith and the Son of God, who loved me and
who gave himself up for me. I thank you that I am now a child of God, fully forgiven, fully
righteous, fully holy in your eyes. And I ask you to help me walk out this life in a
(43:15):
way that pleases and honors you, Father. I thank you, Jesus, for all that you've done.
I thank you for your love, for your kindness, for your great joy in saving me. And I thank
you, Father, and I thank you, Holy Spirit. And I pray all of these things in your beautiful
(43:39):
Son's name. Amen. If you've just prayed that prayer for the first time, I want to congratulate
you. You are now a child of God, and all things are now yours. Keep listening to Revealing
Jesus. Find a good Bible translation that makes sense to you. And keep hearing about
(44:02):
our beautiful Savior Jesus. Please let us know. We want to continue to pray for you.
And we want to send you a free PDF copy of our New Believer Workbook. Just go to Christina
Perera dot org slash welcome hyphen home. Enter your email address and we will be happy
(44:24):
to send this free gift. And continue to pray for your journey. God bless.
I sincerely hope and pray today's episode has blessed you. Now it's your turn to continue
the conversation. We are all evangelists of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Like this episode,
rate it, share it with a friend. If it's impacted your life, let them know that you
(44:49):
want it to do the same in theirs. Help spread the word of the good news of Jesus. Subscribe
to the mailing list and get episodes, articles, downloads, and more sent right to you. Link
in show notes or just text Jesus to 1-833-815-7778. Again, that's Jesus, 1-833-815-7778. We would
(45:16):
love to connect with you on social media. You can find us at Christina Perera Ministries
on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. Until next week, may grace and peace be multiplied
into you in the knowledge of Jesus. God bless.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.