March 11, 2025 • 29 mins
Nothin’ says lovin’ like something from the oven... GIRTHY hosted by Law Smith @LawSmithWorks and Eric Readinger... Here's the episode description we totally wrote:
Let’s Talk Fractional CMOs: What They Are and Why They’re Awesome
🚀 Fractional CMO? What’s That?
Think of a fractional Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) as your business’s secret weapon. You get all the strategy, execution, and performance tracking of a full-time CMO—without the full-time price tag. It’s like renting a marketing genius instead of buying one.
Law Smith breaks it all down on Dean Waye’s podcast, where he spills the tea on what a fractional CMO actually does and why businesses need one. Spoiler alert: It’s about more than just fancy PowerPoints.
😂 Podcast Adventures: Kidney Stones & Resting B*tch Face
Law wasn’t exactly jazzed about doing a pre-interview for the podcast (who loves more meetings, right?), but he caved. And hey, it turned out great. He even poked fun at his "resting b*tch face" on camera and shared hydration tips to avoid kidney stones. (Marketing AND health advice? Multitasking king.
🔥 Day One as a Fractional CMO: Dream vs. Nightmare Scenarios
Dean Waye asked Law the big question: What’s your dream and nightmare first day as a fractional CMO?
Dream: An honest convo with clients who actually know what they want. A clear vision? Yes, please.
Nightmare: Clients who play hide-and-seek with crucial info or have no idea what they’re doing but expect miracles. (Pro tip: Don’t be that client.)
Oh, and fun fact—Law’s also a stand-up comedian. Turns out, making people laugh and fixing their marketing problems go hand-in-hand. Who knew?
🎤 Speaking to a Room Full of Fractional CMOs
Imagine Law on stage at a corporate event, dropping wisdom bombs to a crowd of new fractional CMOs:
👎 Red flag: Clients who won’t listen or are allergic to new ideas.
👍 Green flag: Clients who ask smart questions and actually care about results.
And here’s some free advice for entrepreneurs: FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE. Seriously, don’t overcomplicate things or stand in your own way. (We’re looking at you, perfectionists.)
💡 Marketing Myths, AI, and Business Basics
At a recent conference, Law got real about what’s overrated and underrated in marketing.
❌ Overrated: Random tactics with no strategy.
✅ Underrated: Writing a simple business plan. Yep, even a napkin sketch works.
He also tackled the AI elephant in the room. Law compared it to a TI-83 calculator: super useful, but only if you know how to use it. And let’s not forget the time an AI robot lost its digital cool at a public event. (Yikes.)
🚗 The Cybertruck Debate
When asked about Tesla’s Cybertruck, Law didn’t hold back. Apparently, women either love or hate it. No in-between. And it’s not just a car—it’s a political statement, a personality test, and a giant meme all rolled into one.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Law Smith (00:00):
Alright, so we messed up schedule it again. We're
(00:06):
going to do another podcast. Iwas a guest on a different show
talking about fractional CMOS,Chief Marketing Officer. That's
a that's when you hire someonenot to be a full time Chief
Marketing Officer for yourbusiness. It's, it's when you
need either someone for a day aweek, a half a day a week, or an
(00:30):
interim cmo to get you until youcan hire someone full time. It's
a real thing. It's something Ihave to explain a lot I get
contracted out to be afractional cmo now and again,
and it's one of those thingsthat it's kind of a great way to
(00:50):
really up your marketingdepartment's game, because
usually handle strategy andyou're The execution person in
terms of following up, makingsure we're on time. We're
hitting the benchmarks. We'rehitting the key performance
indicators, KPIs, if you will.And so you know all agencies,
(01:15):
marketing agencies, should havefractional CMOs and not account
executives or client services,or, you know, sales enablement,
representative or accountliaison, whatever it is your
point person for your if you'reworking with a marketing agency,
they should act as a fractionalCMO, taking you from strategy
(01:39):
All the way to execution, andthen some and then refinement,
and then feedback loop and allthat stuff. So I was a guest on
Dean way this podcast, W, A, y,e, if you want to get a hold of
him, it's Winston writes.combecause he's a copied writer,
(02:02):
Winston writes.com and so heasked that we not just put the
full video out there. So keepinghis wishes, I took out, he
really did, like a, almost avery efficient interview show.
He has you on, and he'll ask aquestion to one person and then
(02:25):
go to the other person, and it'skind of like same question. It
it's really interesting to seehow efficient he is with this. I
think he's got 170 episodes in ayear, or something crazy. And I
get why. The funny story aboutthis is I got on this because he
hit me up with a, probably acold programmatic in mail
(02:46):
message on LinkedIn a while ago.And I said, No, thanks. I don't
want to do a pre interview. Andthen, because, why would I do a
pre interview? I get why otherpeople need to do it. I don't
want to do a pre interview. Iwant to come in. You got me,
let's roll. But about, I don'tknow, months later, maybe a year
(03:07):
later, he hit me up again. Isaid, Yeah, I'll come on your
show. I'll, I'll do anybody'sshow. I have no problem doing
it's easy for me. And then wearranged a time that by and I
was ready to go. And by ready togo, I mean, I rescheduled it
once, and then I was ready togo, and it was a pre interview.
I was like, damn it. So I endedup doing that, thinking it was
(03:30):
the real interview. And then wescheduled the real wine, and I
did it with another fractionalcmo named Heidi Treadwell, but
you won't hear much of herbecause I cut her out. So what I
try to do is keep all my answerson this podcast for y'all and
and for our audience, and it's,I try to be funny. Alright, a
(03:54):
little bit. It's kind of toughin these business ones, because
they're like, they usually stonewall you, because they're not
used to anybody being anywherenear funny. And so what else I
want to make sure I've told youabout? Oh, while if you watch on
(04:14):
video, I look crazy. I'veresting bitch face already when
I'm listening, and it got evenworse because I was listening
and I had to pee so bad, beentrying to drink a lot more
water. I don't want kidneystones. A guy spooked me about
(04:35):
that I worked with 20 plus yearsago who said he drank nothing
but mountain dune had sevenkidney stones, and it's worse
than any pregnancy pain,apparently, giving birth or
whatever is the kidneys pushingout a kidney stone through your
Dickel, and I said, No, thanks.And so I keep every now and
(04:56):
again, I get reminded of that,and drink a lot of water, so I.
Like, you know, I look I have anintense, resting bitch face
listening where I look like awrestler that's getting like
someone else just came in theinto the arena, and I'm
listening to him talk about me,and it's that kind of face. So
(05:17):
if you're watching on video,have fun with that. And we'll
get into it. Let's see anythingelse. No, we'll just go right
into it. Have fun. We'll findresting.
Dean Waye (05:35):
All right, okay, so scenario number one, and then
after you answer this, we'regonna switch over and talk to
law for a moment. I imagine mostof your clients are completely
or mostly virtual, so you don'tactually like go to their
premises necessarily all thatoften, but in this scenario,
they're only five minutes fromyour home, so you've signed this
client. Today is the firstofficial day you're gonna go
(05:57):
into their building, right? Soyou're gonna walk in on day one,
what's the dream scenario whenyou as a fractional cmo walk
into a brand new client, andwhat's the nightmare scenario?
Fair enough, law, hi, nice tomeet you again. So tell folks a
little bit about you and thentalk about your you know, day
(06:17):
one nightmare versus your dayone dream scenario.
Law Smith (06:21):
So I have a dual kind of Batman ish life, Batman Bruce
Wayne kind of life. I I'm thepresident of my firm, toca Baga,
T, O, C, O, B, a.ga, if you'relooking for the website, and
it's a mostly lead gen B to B, Bto C, B to B to C, integrated
(06:43):
marketing agency, slash SmallBusiness Advisory, because I
have a business plan writingbackground, and then I have
another career as a stand upcomedian. I might not be very
funny on here, but both kind ofhelp each other out in a weird
in a weird yin yang kind of way.The dream scenario is you come
(07:04):
in and have an honestdiscussion. There they they tell
you what's actually wrong. Youdon't find that out later. They
didn't hide it. Didn't hide it,being a comic when I when I used
to hide it in those first intromeetings or the first onboarding
meetings, and now I tell themstraight up, and it kind of
opens up that honesty in a weirdway. I don't know why, but they
(07:28):
let their hair down and kind oftell me what's really going on.
And the worst scenario is kindof the opposite of that, is when
they're not giving me all theanswers, and you feel it in your
you know, it's intuitive, andyou're like, what? You can't
tell me what the revenue waslast year. You can't tell me
revenue goals. You can't tell meI don't think you have a
(07:52):
business plan. Most, 99% of myclients over 10 years have never
had one, not even an outline.But you know, you can't tell me
your income statement from lastyear, or, you know, your P L or
something. And so that's, that'swhen it gets tricky. And I you
have to become a detective, andI don't want to that's a waste.
That's wasted time on bothsides.
Dean Waye (08:12):
All right, fair enough. Um, okay, so lost. Let's
stick together for a second. Uh,scenario, two of our three.
Okay, you're the main speaker,you're on stage. There's 250
people in the audience. They allcame from corporate. They all
became fractional CMOSyesterday. So to them, like you
(08:33):
are the expert fractional CMO,right. So I'm gonna between you
and Heidi. We're gonna go backand forth. There's like three
parts of the speech that I'mgonna prompt you for, and then
you finish the thought for me,okay, kind of like, bad lives,
yeah, you get your answer can beas long as it needs to be, okay.
(08:53):
Like, I'm, you know, as we sayin copyrighted it should be as
long as it needs to be, but nolonger, right? So first is okay,
guys like you know, welcome tothe world of being a fractional
CMO. I can tell you right now,the thing you're going to be
most shocked by is
Law Smith (09:11):
having to explain what a fractional CMO is to
almost everybody you meet,including not here, not
prospective clients, just almosteverybody, yeah, most people
don't know what a CMO is, so youhave to kind of explain what the
job is first
Dean Waye (09:26):
and law, what do you think most clients just don't
understand what
Law Smith (09:30):
they don't know, what they don't know? And that's,
it's not to be a little likeobtuse to say that answer. It's
most of them don't know whattheir brand actually is and the
messaging they push out, andthey don't know who their target
audience should be. So when Iwalk in, I go, Who do you think
(09:50):
your your customer, client,patient, is? And they can't
really tell me. If they can'ttell me, military, like
callback, they don't know,right?
Dean Waye (10:00):
Right? And then, blah, you know, some intern is
trying to signal you this timeto get off stage, and they're
bringing up the music even,right? And they're trying to get
people to applaud, but you'relike, No, no. One more thing,
one more thing, if I get themost important lesson I can ever
give you from now in the nextfew years, about getting
clients, the most importantclient. Getting lesson is what,
Law Smith (10:25):
follow your own advice, don't get in your own
way. Entrepreneur. You're anentrepreneur, really. And the
one thing all entrepreneurs havein common is they can, they can
get in their own way. Thesuccessful ones don't,
Dean Waye (10:38):
right, okay, so third of the three scenarios, you're
at a convention conference kindof thing, you're on the floor,
right? Or at the booths, andeveryone milling around, and
there are a lot of fractionalCMOS there, and there are a lot
of companies looking to hirefractional CMOS, or at least to
talk to them, right? So you'resort of talking to prospective
clients on the floor. Heidi, asyou talk to prospective clients
(11:02):
when it comes to the topic ofmarketing, what do most clients
overrate, and what do theyunderrate in the world of
marketing, as far as gettingresults or getting where they
need to go, I feel like and law,how about you when you're
talking to prospective clients?You know right now, I'm
overrated and underrated.
Law Smith (11:20):
I'm trying to hide my dog in the background of this
video.
Dean Waye (11:23):
2025 man dogs
Law Smith (11:26):
are part of the but it's like distracting me. I look
creating a light like I'm holy,like I'm Jesus's brother. Um,
give me the question again,please.
Dean Waye (11:35):
What when you're talking to prospects and they're
talking to you about marketing,what's overrated and underrated
from what they talk about.
Law Smith (11:41):
Most people come to you with a tactic in mind, and
it's usually because them, ortheir their partner is like, has
an interaction with it. Weshould be on Pinterest, because
my wife's on Pinterest. Let'shere's how you should here's how
you should think macro to microtactics is like the last thing
(12:02):
you don't get. You don't evenknow who your audience is. You
don't know what your brand is.And we don't have any goal set,
any KPIs, any benchmarks. Wedon't have a campaigns going
tactics are the last thing we'regoing to talk about.
Dean Waye (12:19):
Yeah, and what's underrated,
Law Smith (12:22):
uh, writing a business plan. And really, it
doesn't have to be one that's 60pages, because that's a lot,
it's a lot of research mostbusiness plans, and it doesn't
have to be for getting a loan oranything. I think people have a
weird misnomer kind of knowledgeabout that. I think an outline
of a business plan will work. Bplan.com there's a bunch of them
(12:43):
out there. They're like,templated, right? Who? What's
core values? Who are you? Whatdo you do? Why are you better?
You know, like, who? Why doesthe customer, the client,
patient, benefit from what y'allare doing as a product or
service? So I don't think peoplethink about the basics, because
(13:04):
you get really caught up, youget really busy, and you can't
you don't take a minute to stepback and go. What are we doing?
And that's what we're good foras a fractional CMO, well, let's
Dean Waye (13:17):
talk about basics for a second. That's good thing. So
the next question is, sort ofour scenario, you're on the
floor, you end up talking to arefreshingly honest prospective
client, okay? And they say,Look, man, like, I don't even
understand this part of it.Like, what is marketing law? Oh,
um,
Law Smith (13:36):
marketing is an aggregate of a lot of different
tactical kind of strategiesemployed that kind of sounds
like it was chat GPT that wrotethat definition. So let me try
to it. It's not justadvertising, it's not just
social media organically. It'snot just social media ads. It's
not just email more. It's allthese things integrated and omni
(13:59):
channel so they're leveraged ontop of each other. My the
scenario always like to use asan example, because everybody's
bought a car. On average,there's 25 touch points when you
buy a car, 19 or digital, six oroffline, and they all leverage
on each other when you thinkyou're doing pocket research on
(14:19):
the lot they got you geo fencedin to their own websites. You
don't know they own and they'regiving you information that you
think is valuable, but it'stheir own information. Back to
you, so I'm
Dean Waye (14:31):
gonna switch to law now when I come back to you, you
it's your turn to ask aquestion. You can ask a question
of anyone else on the podcastand any question you want law.
So when you're talking toprospective clients, like,
what's a green flag and what's ared flag? Like, no, like, not
only do I think that I'm notright for you, I'm not sure you
(14:52):
should be talking to anyfractional CMOS, what's a green
flag and a red flag with aprospect. I've
Law Smith (14:58):
just had this happen. I've. I, if you go to my
podcast, you can hear me talkabout it because the guy was
such a jerk, I had to justwhat's the podcast better for
than venting out this way, thisfunny way? He The thing was
listening. It's on both sides.Red flag they don't listen.
(15:18):
They're not taking it in. Theyjust want to plug in something
to fill what they think is whatthey need as a seat for their
business. And it's not they'renot really taking it in. The
good one, the green flag is whenthey're listening and take it
and vibing it in and reallydigesting it. And usually the
really best indicator is I'llget an email a day or two later
(15:42):
or something, and they're like,throwing ideas at me after the
things we talked about. Andthat's always like, the best
kind of client, you know, all
Dean Waye (15:51):
right, when I come back to you, you can ask anyone
in the podcast any question youwant, but Heidi, what's your
question?
Heidi Treadwell (15:57):
Well, law, I'm curious if you would talk a
little bit about how AI hasaffected what you do, either
specific tools you're adopting,or even specific guardrails you
have that that maybe keep AI outof your business. How? How is
that becoming part of yourbusiness?
Law Smith (16:19):
I look at AI right right now in 2025 as you know,
it's like the TI 83 calculator,right? It's gonna help you a
lot. It doesn't do everythingfor you yet, but you need to
learn how to do sine, cosine andtangent on it for for class. I
(16:41):
kind of look at it that way.It's not the end all be all, but
you need to keep your eye on it,and you need to know how to use
it going forward, because yougot business calculus two coming
up, because this isn't going tostop AI, you know, I don't know
if y'all saw the AI robot thatbeefed with someone in a Chinese
parade recently, but it lookedoddly it looked like a Philly, a
(17:07):
Philadelphia Eagles fan after aloss. I mean, it was like
bucking shoulders and getting insomeone's face. Was crazy. So
that's the scary part of AI, thestuff for work. I mean, it's SEO
has been a big problem, but SEOhas been game for 20 years, and
so I'm glad there's things like,I go to chat GPT when I need a
(17:30):
real answer, instead of going toGoogle, like I've trained myself
because I can't find the realanswer because everything's so
gamed. So that's, that's whereI'm at. I love, finding out
about new stuff, but it can getoverwhelming. So I keep I
subscribe to a bunch ofnewsletters that just kind of
go, Hey, you're kind of 10 appsthat are going on. Keep your eye
(17:52):
on these, and I find out if likesome of these newsletters all
say the same one that's worthchecking out.
Dean Waye (17:59):
All right, and law, what's your question? Do I need
to ask
Law Smith (18:02):
a question that's business related? Because I
have, I have questions, anyquestion you want. When I do a
Stand Up Show, I like asking avery weird questions to the
crowd, um. Heidi, Yeah, questionyou're going to speak for all
women at home in the US. So no,no. Not too low pressure. Yeah,
(18:23):
I want to know your thoughts onthe cyber truck. What do you
think about it? Women hate it.They have a visceral reaction.
They hate it so much. See, thisis what I have a brain. This is
good for marketing. I see, Iobserve behavior, and I can't
(18:44):
not look at it. Every womanhates the cyber every woman I
know hates the Cybertron. It'sso ugly, though it's pretty,
that's what I say. It
Heidi Treadwell (18:53):
is distinctive, no doubt. And I definitely
thought that the I mean, Tesla'sentry into the market, in part,
was heavily based on design, sothe cyber truck wins for being
distinctive. But my 16 year oldson, who is very into cars, made
me sit down and watch a YouTubevideo which pitted the cyber
(19:14):
truck against a conventionaltruck, and that poor little
truck was the cyber truck wasdestroyed by the end of that
video. So so I can't get behindit, but, you know, I don't want
to yuck somebody else's yum. Ifeel like right now driving
cyber trucks and Teslas ingeneral is somewhat of a
(19:35):
political statement. And so youyou should be clear about what
your identity is, and if youreally want that to be part of
it, see,
Law Smith (19:45):
I think it's more men or barnacles, and women are
flowers, and you guys are we'resharp edges. We like things like
that. This is very broad. I'mpainting with broad strokes,
obviously, but I don't know.Maybe I just want to truck. Or
no other truck driver respectsme.
Heidi Treadwell (20:04):
Well, you could get that with the cyber truck,
right, right,
Law Smith (20:07):
right? I mean, it's not like I'm picking up girls
with my 2003 Yukon with two carseats in the back right now. So
which is my favorite? It'salmost A Classic. You
Dean Waye (27:58):
and law. How about you? Who should contact you
these days, and what's the bestway? My
Law Smith (28:02):
niche has been law firms. I'm in Tampa, which I
think is technically the mostmarketed per dollar on for law
firms per capita in any city, orsomething like that, something
crazy like that. But dad was anattorney. Uncle's the head of a
law firm of 100 lawyers. I'vebeen around lawyers my whole
(28:22):
life. I they're going tochallenge you, and a lot of
people marketing don't likethat. So that became our niche.
But also another niche is VCfirms, or private equity firms
that do that kind of platformthing where they're scooping up
mom and pop businesses, and theyneed to wrap branding around it
while they're handling theoperation, setting it up to
sell, and then anybody can get ahold of me if they want. Law at
(28:47):
tokabaga, t, O, C, O, B, a.ga,is my email. And you know, if
I'm not right, if we're notright for you, I will point you
in the right direction tosomeone like Heidi. All right.
All
Dean Waye (28:58):
right. Both you. Thanks very much for being here.
This has been fantastic.
Alright, so we messed up schedule it again. We're
(00:06):
going to do another podcast. Iwas a guest on a different show
talking about fractional CMOS,Chief Marketing Officer. That's
a that's when you hire someonenot to be a full time Chief
Marketing Officer for yourbusiness. It's, it's when you
need either someone for a day aweek, a half a day a week, or an
(00:30):
interim cmo to get you until youcan hire someone full time. It's
a real thing. It's something Ihave to explain a lot I get
contracted out to be afractional cmo now and again,
and it's one of those thingsthat it's kind of a great way to
(00:50):
really up your marketingdepartment's game, because
usually handle strategy andyou're The execution person in
terms of following up, makingsure we're on time. We're
hitting the benchmarks. We'rehitting the key performance
indicators, KPIs, if you will.And so you know all agencies,
(01:15):
marketing agencies, should havefractional CMOs and not account
executives or client services,or, you know, sales enablement,
representative or accountliaison, whatever it is your
point person for your if you'reworking with a marketing agency,
they should act as a fractionalCMO, taking you from strategy
(01:39):
All the way to execution, andthen some and then refinement,
and then feedback loop and allthat stuff. So I was a guest on
Dean way this podcast, W, A, y,e, if you want to get a hold of
him, it's Winston writes.combecause he's a copied writer,
(02:02):
Winston writes.com and so heasked that we not just put the
full video out there. So keepinghis wishes, I took out, he
really did, like a, almost avery efficient interview show.
He has you on, and he'll ask aquestion to one person and then
(02:25):
go to the other person, and it'skind of like same question. It
it's really interesting to seehow efficient he is with this. I
think he's got 170 episodes in ayear, or something crazy. And I
get why. The funny story aboutthis is I got on this because he
hit me up with a, probably acold programmatic in mail
(02:46):
message on LinkedIn a while ago.And I said, No, thanks. I don't
want to do a pre interview. Andthen, because, why would I do a
pre interview? I get why otherpeople need to do it. I don't
want to do a pre interview. Iwant to come in. You got me,
let's roll. But about, I don'tknow, months later, maybe a year
(03:07):
later, he hit me up again. Isaid, Yeah, I'll come on your
show. I'll, I'll do anybody'sshow. I have no problem doing
it's easy for me. And then wearranged a time that by and I
was ready to go. And by ready togo, I mean, I rescheduled it
once, and then I was ready togo, and it was a pre interview.
I was like, damn it. So I endedup doing that, thinking it was
(03:30):
the real interview. And then wescheduled the real wine, and I
did it with another fractionalcmo named Heidi Treadwell, but
you won't hear much of herbecause I cut her out. So what I
try to do is keep all my answerson this podcast for y'all and
and for our audience, and it's,I try to be funny. Alright, a
(03:54):
little bit. It's kind of toughin these business ones, because
they're like, they usually stonewall you, because they're not
used to anybody being anywherenear funny. And so what else I
want to make sure I've told youabout? Oh, while if you watch on
(04:14):
video, I look crazy. I'veresting bitch face already when
I'm listening, and it got evenworse because I was listening
and I had to pee so bad, beentrying to drink a lot more
water. I don't want kidneystones. A guy spooked me about
(04:35):
that I worked with 20 plus yearsago who said he drank nothing
but mountain dune had sevenkidney stones, and it's worse
than any pregnancy pain,apparently, giving birth or
whatever is the kidneys pushingout a kidney stone through your
Dickel, and I said, No, thanks.And so I keep every now and
(04:56):
again, I get reminded of that,and drink a lot of water, so I.
Like, you know, I look I have anintense, resting bitch face
listening where I look like awrestler that's getting like
someone else just came in theinto the arena, and I'm
listening to him talk about me,and it's that kind of face. So
(05:17):
if you're watching on video,have fun with that. And we'll
get into it. Let's see anythingelse. No, we'll just go right
into it. Have fun. We'll findresting.
Dean Waye (05:35):
All right, okay, so scenario number one, and then
after you answer this, we'regonna switch over and talk to
law for a moment. I imagine mostof your clients are completely
or mostly virtual, so you don'tactually like go to their
premises necessarily all thatoften, but in this scenario,
they're only five minutes fromyour home, so you've signed this
client. Today is the firstofficial day you're gonna go
(05:57):
into their building, right? Soyou're gonna walk in on day one,
what's the dream scenario whenyou as a fractional cmo walk
into a brand new client, andwhat's the nightmare scenario?
Fair enough, law, hi, nice tomeet you again. So tell folks a
little bit about you and thentalk about your you know, day
(06:17):
one nightmare versus your dayone dream scenario.
Law Smith (06:21):
So I have a dual kind of Batman ish life, Batman Bruce
Wayne kind of life. I I'm thepresident of my firm, toca Baga,
T, O, C, O, B, a.ga, if you'relooking for the website, and
it's a mostly lead gen B to B, Bto C, B to B to C, integrated
(06:43):
marketing agency, slash SmallBusiness Advisory, because I
have a business plan writingbackground, and then I have
another career as a stand upcomedian. I might not be very
funny on here, but both kind ofhelp each other out in a weird
in a weird yin yang kind of way.The dream scenario is you come
(07:04):
in and have an honestdiscussion. There they they tell
you what's actually wrong. Youdon't find that out later. They
didn't hide it. Didn't hide it,being a comic when I when I used
to hide it in those first intromeetings or the first onboarding
meetings, and now I tell themstraight up, and it kind of
opens up that honesty in a weirdway. I don't know why, but they
(07:28):
let their hair down and kind oftell me what's really going on.
And the worst scenario is kindof the opposite of that, is when
they're not giving me all theanswers, and you feel it in your
you know, it's intuitive, andyou're like, what? You can't
tell me what the revenue waslast year. You can't tell me
revenue goals. You can't tell meI don't think you have a
(07:52):
business plan. Most, 99% of myclients over 10 years have never
had one, not even an outline.But you know, you can't tell me
your income statement from lastyear, or, you know, your P L or
something. And so that's, that'swhen it gets tricky. And I you
have to become a detective, andI don't want to that's a waste.
That's wasted time on bothsides.
Dean Waye (08:12):
All right, fair enough. Um, okay, so lost. Let's
stick together for a second. Uh,scenario, two of our three.
Okay, you're the main speaker,you're on stage. There's 250
people in the audience. They allcame from corporate. They all
became fractional CMOSyesterday. So to them, like you
(08:33):
are the expert fractional CMO,right. So I'm gonna between you
and Heidi. We're gonna go backand forth. There's like three
parts of the speech that I'mgonna prompt you for, and then
you finish the thought for me,okay, kind of like, bad lives,
yeah, you get your answer can beas long as it needs to be, okay.
(08:53):
Like, I'm, you know, as we sayin copyrighted it should be as
long as it needs to be, but nolonger, right? So first is okay,
guys like you know, welcome tothe world of being a fractional
CMO. I can tell you right now,the thing you're going to be
most shocked by is
Law Smith (09:11):
having to explain what a fractional CMO is to
almost everybody you meet,including not here, not
prospective clients, just almosteverybody, yeah, most people
don't know what a CMO is, so youhave to kind of explain what the
job is first
Dean Waye (09:26):
and law, what do you think most clients just don't
understand what
Law Smith (09:30):
they don't know, what they don't know? And that's,
it's not to be a little likeobtuse to say that answer. It's
most of them don't know whattheir brand actually is and the
messaging they push out, andthey don't know who their target
audience should be. So when Iwalk in, I go, Who do you think
(09:50):
your your customer, client,patient, is? And they can't
really tell me. If they can'ttell me, military, like
callback, they don't know,right?
Dean Waye (10:00):
Right? And then, blah, you know, some intern is
trying to signal you this timeto get off stage, and they're
bringing up the music even,right? And they're trying to get
people to applaud, but you'relike, No, no. One more thing,
one more thing, if I get themost important lesson I can ever
give you from now in the nextfew years, about getting
clients, the most importantclient. Getting lesson is what,
Law Smith (10:25):
follow your own advice, don't get in your own
way. Entrepreneur. You're anentrepreneur, really. And the
one thing all entrepreneurs havein common is they can, they can
get in their own way. Thesuccessful ones don't,
Dean Waye (10:38):
right, okay, so third of the three scenarios, you're
at a convention conference kindof thing, you're on the floor,
right? Or at the booths, andeveryone milling around, and
there are a lot of fractionalCMOS there, and there are a lot
of companies looking to hirefractional CMOS, or at least to
talk to them, right? So you'resort of talking to prospective
clients on the floor. Heidi, asyou talk to prospective clients
(11:02):
when it comes to the topic ofmarketing, what do most clients
overrate, and what do theyunderrate in the world of
marketing, as far as gettingresults or getting where they
need to go, I feel like and law,how about you when you're
talking to prospective clients?You know right now, I'm
overrated and underrated.
Law Smith (11:20):
I'm trying to hide my dog in the background of this
video.
Dean Waye (11:23):
2025 man dogs
Law Smith (11:26):
are part of the but it's like distracting me. I look
creating a light like I'm holy,like I'm Jesus's brother. Um,
give me the question again,please.
Dean Waye (11:35):
What when you're talking to prospects and they're
talking to you about marketing,what's overrated and underrated
from what they talk about.
Law Smith (11:41):
Most people come to you with a tactic in mind, and
it's usually because them, ortheir their partner is like, has
an interaction with it. Weshould be on Pinterest, because
my wife's on Pinterest. Let'shere's how you should here's how
you should think macro to microtactics is like the last thing
(12:02):
you don't get. You don't evenknow who your audience is. You
don't know what your brand is.And we don't have any goal set,
any KPIs, any benchmarks. Wedon't have a campaigns going
tactics are the last thing we'regoing to talk about.
Dean Waye (12:19):
Yeah, and what's underrated,
Law Smith (12:22):
uh, writing a business plan. And really, it
doesn't have to be one that's 60pages, because that's a lot,
it's a lot of research mostbusiness plans, and it doesn't
have to be for getting a loan oranything. I think people have a
weird misnomer kind of knowledgeabout that. I think an outline
of a business plan will work. Bplan.com there's a bunch of them
(12:43):
out there. They're like,templated, right? Who? What's
core values? Who are you? Whatdo you do? Why are you better?
You know, like, who? Why doesthe customer, the client,
patient, benefit from what y'allare doing as a product or
service? So I don't think peoplethink about the basics, because
(13:04):
you get really caught up, youget really busy, and you can't
you don't take a minute to stepback and go. What are we doing?
And that's what we're good foras a fractional CMO, well, let's
Dean Waye (13:17):
talk about basics for a second. That's good thing. So
the next question is, sort ofour scenario, you're on the
floor, you end up talking to arefreshingly honest prospective
client, okay? And they say,Look, man, like, I don't even
understand this part of it.Like, what is marketing law? Oh,
um,
Law Smith (13:36):
marketing is an aggregate of a lot of different
tactical kind of strategiesemployed that kind of sounds
like it was chat GPT that wrotethat definition. So let me try
to it. It's not justadvertising, it's not just
social media organically. It'snot just social media ads. It's
not just email more. It's allthese things integrated and omni
(13:59):
channel so they're leveraged ontop of each other. My the
scenario always like to use asan example, because everybody's
bought a car. On average,there's 25 touch points when you
buy a car, 19 or digital, six oroffline, and they all leverage
on each other when you thinkyou're doing pocket research on
(14:19):
the lot they got you geo fencedin to their own websites. You
don't know they own and they'regiving you information that you
think is valuable, but it'stheir own information. Back to
you, so I'm
Dean Waye (14:31):
gonna switch to law now when I come back to you, you
it's your turn to ask aquestion. You can ask a question
of anyone else on the podcastand any question you want law.
So when you're talking toprospective clients, like,
what's a green flag and what's ared flag? Like, no, like, not
only do I think that I'm notright for you, I'm not sure you
(14:52):
should be talking to anyfractional CMOS, what's a green
flag and a red flag with aprospect. I've
Law Smith (14:58):
just had this happen. I've. I, if you go to my
podcast, you can hear me talkabout it because the guy was
such a jerk, I had to justwhat's the podcast better for
than venting out this way, thisfunny way? He The thing was
listening. It's on both sides.Red flag they don't listen.
(15:18):
They're not taking it in. Theyjust want to plug in something
to fill what they think is whatthey need as a seat for their
business. And it's not they'renot really taking it in. The
good one, the green flag is whenthey're listening and take it
and vibing it in and reallydigesting it. And usually the
really best indicator is I'llget an email a day or two later
(15:42):
or something, and they're like,throwing ideas at me after the
things we talked about. Andthat's always like, the best
kind of client, you know, all
Dean Waye (15:51):
right, when I come back to you, you can ask anyone
in the podcast any question youwant, but Heidi, what's your
question?
Heidi Treadwell (15:57):
Well, law, I'm curious if you would talk a
little bit about how AI hasaffected what you do, either
specific tools you're adopting,or even specific guardrails you
have that that maybe keep AI outof your business. How? How is
that becoming part of yourbusiness?
Law Smith (16:19):
I look at AI right right now in 2025 as you know,
it's like the TI 83 calculator,right? It's gonna help you a
lot. It doesn't do everythingfor you yet, but you need to
learn how to do sine, cosine andtangent on it for for class. I
(16:41):
kind of look at it that way.It's not the end all be all, but
you need to keep your eye on it,and you need to know how to use
it going forward, because yougot business calculus two coming
up, because this isn't going tostop AI, you know, I don't know
if y'all saw the AI robot thatbeefed with someone in a Chinese
parade recently, but it lookedoddly it looked like a Philly, a
(17:07):
Philadelphia Eagles fan after aloss. I mean, it was like
bucking shoulders and getting insomeone's face. Was crazy. So
that's the scary part of AI, thestuff for work. I mean, it's SEO
has been a big problem, but SEOhas been game for 20 years, and
so I'm glad there's things like,I go to chat GPT when I need a
(17:30):
real answer, instead of going toGoogle, like I've trained myself
because I can't find the realanswer because everything's so
gamed. So that's, that's whereI'm at. I love, finding out
about new stuff, but it can getoverwhelming. So I keep I
subscribe to a bunch ofnewsletters that just kind of
go, Hey, you're kind of 10 appsthat are going on. Keep your eye
(17:52):
on these, and I find out if likesome of these newsletters all
say the same one that's worthchecking out.
Dean Waye (17:59):
All right, and law, what's your question? Do I need
to ask
Law Smith (18:02):
a question that's business related? Because I
have, I have questions, anyquestion you want. When I do a
Stand Up Show, I like asking avery weird questions to the
crowd, um. Heidi, Yeah, questionyou're going to speak for all
women at home in the US. So no,no. Not too low pressure. Yeah,
(18:23):
I want to know your thoughts onthe cyber truck. What do you
think about it? Women hate it.They have a visceral reaction.
They hate it so much. See, thisis what I have a brain. This is
good for marketing. I see, Iobserve behavior, and I can't
(18:44):
not look at it. Every womanhates the cyber every woman I
know hates the Cybertron. It'sso ugly, though it's pretty,
that's what I say. It
Heidi Treadwell (18:53):
is distinctive, no doubt. And I definitely
thought that the I mean, Tesla'sentry into the market, in part,
was heavily based on design, sothe cyber truck wins for being
distinctive. But my 16 year oldson, who is very into cars, made
me sit down and watch a YouTubevideo which pitted the cyber
(19:14):
truck against a conventionaltruck, and that poor little
truck was the cyber truck wasdestroyed by the end of that
video. So so I can't get behindit, but, you know, I don't want
to yuck somebody else's yum. Ifeel like right now driving
cyber trucks and Teslas ingeneral is somewhat of a
(19:35):
political statement. And so youyou should be clear about what
your identity is, and if youreally want that to be part of
it, see,
Law Smith (19:45):
I think it's more men or barnacles, and women are
flowers, and you guys are we'resharp edges. We like things like
that. This is very broad. I'mpainting with broad strokes,
obviously, but I don't know.Maybe I just want to truck. Or
no other truck driver respectsme.
Heidi Treadwell (20:04):
Well, you could get that with the cyber truck,
right, right,
Law Smith (20:07):
right? I mean, it's not like I'm picking up girls
with my 2003 Yukon with two carseats in the back right now. So
which is my favorite? It'salmost A Classic. You
Dean Waye (27:58):
and law. How about you? Who should contact you
these days, and what's the bestway? My
Law Smith (28:02):
niche has been law firms. I'm in Tampa, which I
think is technically the mostmarketed per dollar on for law
firms per capita in any city, orsomething like that, something
crazy like that. But dad was anattorney. Uncle's the head of a
law firm of 100 lawyers. I'vebeen around lawyers my whole
(28:22):
life. I they're going tochallenge you, and a lot of
people marketing don't likethat. So that became our niche.
But also another niche is VCfirms, or private equity firms
that do that kind of platformthing where they're scooping up
mom and pop businesses, and theyneed to wrap branding around it
while they're handling theoperation, setting it up to
sell, and then anybody can get ahold of me if they want. Law at
(28:47):
tokabaga, t, O, C, O, B, a.ga,is my email. And you know, if
I'm not right, if we're notright for you, I will point you
in the right direction tosomeone like Heidi. All right.
All
Dean Waye (28:58):
right. Both you. Thanks very much for being here.
This has been fantastic.
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