June 5, 2025 • 42 mins
Think running a landscape company with your spouse is a recipe for disaster? Think again. Kerry and Jill Cline are living proof that partnership—at work and at home—can become your biggest business superpower. This candid conversation peels back the curtain on how they built C&S Lawn Service & Landscaping: from passing out flyers as a teenager to scaling up with peer support, adopting game-changing software, and building a culture of accountability and trust. Find out what it takes to get out of your own way, empower your team, and finally move from chaos to control, no matter how long you’ve been “too busy” to change.
THE BIG IDEA:
Growth comes from learning and taking action.
KEY MOMENTS:
[04:09] Building a Business Beyond Friends
[08:00] Family Business Decision
[11:16] Streamlining Hiring and Organization
[14:59] Trust and Financial Clarity
[16:58] Hiring Smarter Mentors for Growth
[20:34] Inaction Despite Learning
[24:32] "Software Adoption Success Story"
[28:59] Team-Centric Financial Transparency
[30:20] "Aligning Personal and Professional Goals"
[34:13] Empowering Teams through Management
[37:30] "Elevate Through Mentorship"
QUESTIONS WE ANSWER
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What are the benefits of joining a business peer group?
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How can husband and wife successfully run a business together?
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When should I hire a fractional CFO for my small business?
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How do I transition from working in my business to working on my business?
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What is open book management, and should I use it in my company?
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How do I build a strong company culture in the landscape industry?
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What’s the best way to implement systems and processes in a small business?
-
What are some challenges of hiring friends and family in your business?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Roots of Success Podcast,and I'm your host Tommy Cole.
I have two amazing guestson the show today, actually.
They're not really guests andthey're kind of my clients, but most
importantly, they're my good friends.
From a few years ago, they joined peergroups and now we have become close and
(00:22):
we're friends and we kind of make funof all of each other all the times, and.
It's been great, but I've got CarrieKlein and Jill Klein from CNS landscape
in the great state of Ohio, which Ihave been accustomed to in the last six,
seven years to visit your awesome state.
(00:45):
Welcome to the podcast, Jill and Kerry.
How are you?
Good.
Good.
How are you?
How are you?
We're good.
We're good.
The don't be nervous.
It's okay.
Here we go.
I know it's a little bit, this iswhere we have all of our accountability
calls and financial updates.
Look at this beautifulbackdrop of the railroad ties.
(01:06):
I love it.
It's got the C for Klein andeverything is, is peachy.
So.
Well, let's just jump right in.
Carrie and Jill tell us how c and slandscape got started back in the day.
I'm sure it's like a mowing dream.
Turn to extraordinaire, right.
A little bit.
So when I was 15 years old, Istarted in the landscape industry.
(01:28):
I actually started working for a companythat did hardscape installations and
it was just me, him, and one other guy.
It was a very small company.
I did that all through highschool and I, I just loved working
outside, loved working with myhands, loved building things.
It was always justsomething I really enjoyed.
When I graduated high school, I wentoff to college 'cause that's what
I thought you were supposed to do.
(01:49):
What we.
That's what they pushed for.
And so I, I went off to college andthat I just realized it wasn't for me.
I stayed for about a year.
I, I went to NorthCarolina and I came back.
And when I got back, it was kind of oneof those, I was like, what's next in life?
You know, I, I truly enjoyed doinglandscaping and working with my hands.
(02:09):
And so CNS started in March of 2001.
And it was one of those where passingout flyers and, and paper boxes
and driving around doing whateverI could to drum up work, driving
all over the place to do work.
And I started off with justmowing and it was funny.
I, I, I rarely ever mowed before then,I was mostly a hardscape background,
(02:32):
so started off with mowing 'causethat's the easiest place to start.
Yeah.
You know, low barrier toentry, they always say.
And We continue to build on that.
I got a few guys over the years and wejust focused on doing great work and
trying to keep good guys around me.
You know, when I first started it wasa bunch of friends, which was nice and
easy to keep around you, but then asyour friends get older, they disappear.
(02:56):
And so people that think thatthey can grow a business with
friends, it's, it's very difficult.
So for many, many years I just putmy head down and worked really hard.
And we kind of just.
Grew a little bit every year, butnever got to be a huge company.
In 2015 Jill came aboard.
(03:17):
Mm-hmm.
She had a background inYeah, she had a background.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She had a background in,in, in the medical field.
And then she, she was a branch managerfor a building supply company, and I was
still answering the phones at the time.
I was doing kind of everythingand I, I really needed help.
I was drowning.
(03:38):
So that's when she came aboard.
Yep.
So,
So Carrie, so 14 years,
mm-hmm.
you're pushing the mower.
Are you doing any hardscape projects or.
so, so in 2015 we were doing mowingenhancements, landscape install work.
We were doing hardscape work.
We were doing all of it.
(03:58):
I don't know how many guys we had at thetime but we, we were, it was very hard.
It was always hiring new people.
I do still have actually someof those people on board today.
We've got some guys 18 years, 15 years.
You know, guys that cameor left and came back.
We actually had a guy that worked for usearly on that just came back last year
(04:19):
and he took a, I don't know, a 20 yearlike hiatus, but he came back last year.
So it's awesome.
But yeah, so we, we did all, allof those and, and again, we just, I
didn't know how to run a business.
I was just doing work.
I thought that's whatI was supposed to do.
Working really hard sometimes, early on,especially, is working seven days a week.
(04:40):
Yeah.
and I missed my oldest son.
That was a challenge that we'll get to.
But I missed missed a lot of his growingup when he was really young because.
And so you thought care.
You thought, this is the dream, right?
This is, this is, I'm justgonna work seven days a week.
I'm gonna mow grass and plantshrubs and do hardscapes.
'cause this is it.
(05:02):
I'm living the dream.
I'm a business owner, like, I'mwilling to bet it wasn't like.
It wasn't like, you know, Jill'slike, what's going on here?
Like, why can't we have time?
Right.
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, I, I, I know my mother-in-law,we would have picnics at her house
for holidays and I couldn't go.
(05:22):
And she's like, where can't you go?
But it's just one of those I thoughtI needed to be working and I thought
I was doing good because I had enoughwork that I could work in those times.
But it, it, it was not right.
I, I was not doing the right thing.
And obviously it took me a verylong time, more than usual for most
people to realize that I think so.
that makes sense.
(05:42):
So then comes Amazing.
Jill, why did she sign up for this?
Oh, I've been watching itfor years from the sideline.
Like he said I kind of had my career in,in healthcare management for a long time.
I. Wanted out of healthcare.
So I, I took a position actually managinga building supply location, a branch
(06:09):
that gave me a different exposure.
I think that it comes in veryuseful in this industry actually.
I think that I took a lot from thatjob and implement it in this landscape.
How to deal with contractors on last
Yeah,
Right.
yeah.
everything.
Yeah.
No.
So so yeah, I have a lot of experience inthat and it comes in useful, but just came
(06:34):
in and, and really tried to organize whatwas going on on the administration, you
know, administrative side of the companyget some, you know, better processes,
kind of defined and laid out with evenrunning hiring ads and, and how do we
respond to those and interviewing people.
(06:55):
It's been a slow process,but we're getting there.
Over the past 10 years that I'vebeen here a lot has changed.
So for the.
The better?
Yeah.
All for the better.
So
talk.
Man, 10 years.
So Jill, you've beenthere 10 and talk about
(07:21):
this.
This is a tricky situation.
'cause you know, it's notlike you can afford, right?
Carrie, else coming on boardthat needs salary, et cetera.
Like is it something of like justa need that, or Jill just goes, I
gotta come in and just help out andjust make things right because of.
Carrie's gone.
(07:42):
Carrie is, stress carrie'soverworked, and Jill just jumped
right in and said, let's go.
Like, I just want to paint thatpicture for a lot of business owners
out there that are starting young orjust been in it for a very long time.
You know, at one point you almost,Carrie just needs to let us guard
down and go, I just need help.
Yeah, so a big part of that was.
(08:03):
We reached that point where heneeded somebody to step in and answer
the phones and run kind of thatday-to-day, like office type work.
We were not running out of afacility at the time where there
was any kind of office space.
And so the thought of hiring a strangeressentially and trusting them to either
(08:23):
work from home or actually come work inour home, I was not on board with at all.
And so that's kind of what pushed usto that decision of, you know, why
am I managing a branch for a buildingsupply company when I could be doing
this for our family and for our company.
(08:45):
So it really made senseto just take the chance.
It was either gonna be the worstthing or the best thing that
we ever did for our marriage.
I think we had a lot of conversations of.
If at any point, either one of us doesnot like the way that this is going,
we have to agree that we can sit, likesay to the other one, this is done.
You gotta go back towork for somebody else.
(09:06):
So luckily we haven't hadthat conversation yet.
Yeah.
No, you guys are
But, but I think it also in asense too, gave her a little
flexibility with our kids.
It did.
We had two young boys and so it gaveher a little bit more flexibility to
do things instead of being tied downto a branch, she was able to work
(09:27):
from home and I was the mom who wasmissing all of the school parties and
You know, and.
Upset about it that Iwasn't able to be there.
I just didn't have that flexibilitywhen I was working for somebody else.
So that was probably big.
The biggest draw and perk for mewas that I was gonna be able to you
know, pop over to the school in themiddle of the day so that I could be
(09:49):
a part of those things for our kids.
Like he said, with our oldest son,unfortunately, you know, we both we
were working a lot and we missed out ona lot of things like that, but luckily
10 years ago, I kind of was able to.
Start showing up more and, andbeing at those things for him.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Talk about.
(10:12):
Kerry's probably the field guy.
I, I just relate to Kerry going,he's in the field all day.
He's knocking stuff out and opera.
Very operational driven, which is mostbusiness owners these days, right?
So here comes Jill.
Do, do, do, do.
I'm gonna work from home and justby like, oh my gosh we gotta get a
(10:35):
lot of things figured out as far as.
And you're highly involved in thefinances and the HR and the admin,
you're taking over this, somethingthat's, that sort of hasn't been given
love and rightfully so because he isout there selling and producing work.
So talk about some of the things thatyou've overcome to sort of strengthen
(10:55):
it, strengthen the team, strengthenthe company that you just said.
We gotta get a hold of these things.
And I, and, and reason why I'masking this is a lot of owners out
there that are figuring that out.
It could be.
single owner and it could have 10employees at this point, and they're
at a breaking point on what to do.
Absolutely.
you help carry in this situation?
(11:16):
Just getting organized.
Like I said we started just differentprocesses with even hiring people.
?Turnover is, is huge in this industry.
You can't hire anybody thatwalks through the door.
You've gotta hire for yourculture, which first you have
to define what that culture is.
So doing that.
Deciding who was a good fit for ourcompany, having to let some people go
(11:39):
that we're not a good fit that we'rejust dragging everybody else down.
Running those hiring ads, stayingon top of calling people you know,
within 24 hours, getting them in forinterviews and building that team up
was one of the most important thingsthat we started giving time to.
Unfortunately when you're anowner operator and you're out in
the field, you don't have timefor those thing, those things.
(12:02):
As far as even the finances of thebusiness, having set days of the month
that you're pushing out all of yourreoccurring maintenance, billing, staying
on top of your landscape and hardscapebilling so that it's done you've gotta
stay on top, top of your cash flow.
Because when you realize that you havea cash flow problem, it's too late.
You've gotta get ahead of that,stay on top of your invoicing.
(12:25):
So those were probably the most importantthings, just making sure that clients
our customer service is really important.
We were a word of mouth companyup until two, three years ago.
We had never paid a marketingcompany to do anything for us.
And so our reputationis extremely important.
It's what's grown the company prettymuch to the size that it is right now.
(12:46):
Was just making sure that wewere staying on top of the
client phone calls and emails.
Getting back to people.
I can't tell you how many clients hireus because they'll tell me you're the
first person to answer your phone.
Or the first person toreturn my voicemail or email.
They're shocked when it's a live personthat they can talk to that same day.
You know, even scheduling meetings andshowing up to the meetings, running a,
(13:09):
running a calendar getting that organized.
And I tell people, we'renot the cable company.
I'm not gonna give you a four hour window.
I'm gonna give you a specifictime, and that's what time,
you know, an account manager isgoing to be there for your meeting.
People are busy and so beingrespectful of their time has has,
(13:29):
Yeah.
been a great impact on us.
Carrie, anything to add there?
That's just a, you know, anyadvice for people like that that
says, man, I'm the op sales guy.
I need someone to help.
It's almost like you'vegotta hire someone that's
I was.
opposite of you.
You know, if you don't have awife that can come in and do
it, you need to hire somebody.
And
Yeah.
your buddy thinks, oh, I can'tafford that person, but you can't
(13:50):
afford not to have that person.
Mm-hmm.
And it truly is, I mean, throughthe years, the equipment, oh, I
don't think I can afford that.
As soon as we got it, weneed two or three of 'em now.
You know, that person wedidn't think we could afford.
As soon as we got 'em, we're like, man,why didn't we do that five years ago?
10 years ago?
And so it's always, you know,just realizing that you need
those people to help you.
You can't do it all by yourself.
(14:11):
You think you can, but nobody can.
Yeah,
You can't do it.
Good.
At least.
Yeah, love it.
It's almost like you two.
Take it for multiple businessowners or spouses, doesn't matter.
But you guys have a trust, and I'veseen that over the years where good at
the ops side, the equipment producingthe work, you know, managing the crews,
(14:34):
but he also relies on Jill Go, man, ifwe had this machine it would work best.
Can we have this machine?
What do you think?
Right.
Because Carrie's initial reaction is justgo get the machine and I don't really
care, and we'll figure it out later.
I know this is a sensitivesubject that's at one point,
but now it really works, Carrie.
(14:56):
Right.
Explain the dynamic of havingthat trust with each other.
I mean, at the end of the day witha husband and wife, you have to
have that trust because it, I mean,your family is counting on it.
I hate to say it.
And so, the, the hard thing was, yeah,going back to the equipment, like sh
we, neither of us really knew for along time, can we afford another truck?
Can we afford another skidsteer, whatever it may be.
(15:18):
But we looked at financials or Jilllooked at financials like, yeah, we
got a lot of money, we can afford it.
So that went on for a long time beforewe truly got things straightened
out and hired a functional CFO.
So.
There you go.
There you go.
Someone even smarter than both of you twoto watch the finances was a huge hire.
that's something we both believein, is trying to find those people
(15:40):
smarter than you to help you out.
Right?
'cause you can't do it yourself.
You can't do what you don't know.
Yeah.
So, and if you hire a goodfractional CFO, they'll find a
way to pay for themselves easily.
Yes.
Yeah.
Was that a hard decision, Jill?
First?
At first it was, I met with him.
The, the guy that we ultimately didhire, I met with him and two others.
(16:04):
And I think it took me almosta year before I actually.
Signed up with, with the one that Ithought would be the best fit for us.
And that's we've been with him forover a year, a year, just over a
year now, and couldn't be happier.
I I'm very glad that we made thatdecision and that we have Jim to help
us make those hard decisions now.
(16:25):
And you also, as a business owner, youdon't have a lot of people telling you no.
And and you need that,I don't always listen.
You know, but he'll, hecan give me his opinion.
There are times he says no, and sometimesI just have to listen to my gut.
But there are times that I take hisadvice and I'm like, he's probably right.
(16:48):
He knows more about this than I do.
You need somebody playing devil'sadvocate because you do what you
think isn't necessarily right.
Just 'cause you want it really, really baddoesn't mean it's gonna work, so right.
and at, at this point you hireda mentor that is quite, and
frankly like than you guys.
Like no different than what I would do.
The same is like we need someone athigh level, Jill's probably great at
(17:10):
like basic bookkeeping and puttingthings in the system, billing.
Invoices, collecting money, like justgeneric things that we all kind of do.
But I need someone at that next levelhow the business is functioning.
And it's okay to reach out to peoplethat are much smarter than you.
'cause they're on your team.
(17:31):
They can mentor you and show you,and it's been a great relationship
for, for this past year.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, she, Jill doesn'thave an accounting degree.
You know, we don't have businessdegrees or business backgrounds
or any kind of finance background.
So again, you need to find thatperson that does to help you.
So.
take It makes a lot of sense.
I know that you guys have been,you know, wrangling with that CFO
(17:52):
fractional for a while and onceyou committed, you saw a really big
difference and know it's something that
Well, it's,
know, you, you'll never let it go.
It may be a different, a differentsystem or person as you get larger
or small, what just depends.
But you'll always havesomeone at that level
it's another one you think youcan't afford, but now we realize
we can't afford not to have it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
(18:12):
Yeah.
Okay, so then somethinghappened three, seven years ago.
You're like, I don't even knowhow this even happened, but you
decide to join a peer group.
was the, what was the reason to join?
That's gotta be kind of scary.
I, I, I would think now that I'vebeen in this program for a while,
but what the, who made the call?
(18:35):
I'll be honest, four years ago we kindof hit a plateau and and Jill and I had
a heart to heart is one of those whereit was like, we have to do something.
Mm-hmm.
The business was kind of stagnant.
I think we were stuck for a while, right?
Over a million dollars, butwe were just like stuck.
We didn't know what to do.
We were both working our butts off andwe honestly didn't know where to go.
So we sat down.
First thing we did was we actuallydecided to hire a business consultant.
(18:58):
We hired a business consultant, broughtthat consultant in, and, we did some real,
we, we learned some things from them andwe, we just didn't, it didn't last long.
We didn't click with them,so it didn't last long.
This was in the fall, Ithink, four years ago.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, we learned somestuff from there and we, and we
were like, okay, well what's next?
(19:19):
It came February and, and I was readingsome article and I saw this conference,
the Grow conference, and we had never beenbefore, so it was in Nashville, Tennessee.
And I said something to Jill about it,and I, and neither of us ever been to
Nashville, so we're like, Hey, let's go.
Why not?
Case scenario.
We're gonna to Nashville.
In Nashville.
And so we went to this GROW conferencethe whole time we're at this conference,
(19:43):
we're seeing like something aboutACEs and we don't know what it is.
They got better seating,they got this, they got that.
We don't know what it's,
and so there was a, like a cocktail.
Hour where you could learn more about it.
And that's actuallywhere we met you, Tommy.
Yep.
But there was a cocktail hour andwhat we learned in that hour it seemed
(20:03):
something that we, we wanted to try.
But the issue was in two weeks we hadto be in New Orleans at Discovery.
Well, we're in Nashvilleright now, and it was already.
Yeah.
we already taken ourselves outtawork when her and I were both heavy
in the day to day and we had alreadymissed work to go to this conference.
And now we're gonna go in twoweeks and miss work again.
To go to discovery in New Orleans.
(20:26):
Jill said to me, she said, ifwe do this, you have to promise
you're gonna implement things.
And so for years and years wewent to industry conferences and
seminars and I just, we learned alot, but never implemented things.
And so it was just like, yeah,me and her were getting, I guess,
smarter to a certain extent, but wewere never doing anything with it.
(20:49):
So I promised I would we finishedup a, a great grow in Nashville
though, and OSI was amazing and.
And then we moved on and two weeks laterwe were in New Orleans in a haunted hotel.
And
Yep.
we don't find that out until the lastday after we slept there for two days.
But
(21:09):
We were in a haunted hotel andwe were kind of blown away with.
I guess what this was all about, what peergroups, ace, peer groups were all about.
It just, we didn't know thatbusiness side, like I said before.
Yeah.
We don't come from a business background.
I, I was a landscaper, you know,I, I like to build things, I
like to work out in the field.
I like to work hard.
(21:30):
Didn't know a lot of these things.
And so it really opened our eyesto what, what's out there and
the opportunities out there.
When we went to New Orleans, wesat in a room with with our peer
group that ended up forming.
You know, you guys formed that groupand, and left all of us together.
We'd never had an experienceof sitting with other business
owners and talking openly.
(21:53):
And that honestly.
same things that you're going through.
They're going
Yes.
Yes.
And so it just, it it, it changedour entire perspective on on growing
the business and finding thesepeople that we felt like we could
help them and they could help us.
And you know, we were still withthem and have made some lifelong
(22:16):
friends from that group, so.
Great.
an awesome group.
It literally got formed out.
Yeah.
discovery and it continued on.
It's still continuing on to this day.
It's been pretty fascinating to see.
Shout out to.
Yeah.
Ace Destiny, that's part of your group.
That It's a group, but I, I actuallyhelp facilitate that a little bit.
(22:37):
So it's an amazing group, a grazinggroup of people that have been sharing
a ton of information and growing.
So tell me about.
The last few years.
What are some things that you have learnedor you've, we talked about this a week
or two ago while we were out on site.
(22:57):
You guys have accomplished a lot of
Mm-hmm.
Like, let's tip your hat real quick andsay, yeah, we've got these few things
developed and we never thought we could.
Software for me.
Software.
About that.
You, we've had a conversation about this.
Probably from day one
yeah.
(23:18):
Yeah.
So.
Talk about your experience withsoftware before and what it is like now.
Yeah.
So care, years and years ago, I don'tCarrie went to some seminar at Ohio
Cat and he comes home and says, Isigned up for this software called LMN.
You're like, oh no.
Can you help me?
I like learn this and figure this out.
And at the time I was stillworking full-time, you know,
(23:40):
somewhere else, and I'm like, what?
So we never did anything with it.
I was, I was able to get whatI should charge per hour.
Yeah, roughly.
It was, it was still when MikeLaski was teaching the class.
So it was very, very early on.
Yeah, it was it was, I thought itwas the coolest thing and I wanted
to do it, but again, you get tieddown into the day to day and there's
(24:00):
no way you have time to do it.
So fast forward three years ago we joinedthis peer group and, you know, they're
like, you've gotta implement software.
You have to just do it.
So we did signed up with LMN, goteverything implemented up and running.
It continues to improve the way thatwe run our business daily, every day.
(24:20):
You know, I thought I couldn't get ridof the stupid time clock, you know?
Oh yeah, the manual time
Manual time clock and these time cards.
And I, I couldn't wrap my headaround like, well, how else do
you, you know, pay these people?
It's in LMN, like what inthe world was wrong with me?
I look back and I'm like, what was wrongwith me that I could not figure out you
(24:40):
know, how to implement this and do it.
But weve done it.
We continue to do it, continue to,to implement all the things that
LMN and, and software have to offer.
We've got a couple other software programsthat we're running, it has just night and
day difference in estimating absolutely.
Just even payroll filesbeing sent off to accounting.
(25:00):
I mean, it just makes life so much easier.
I don't know how we did it before.
I say before we were literally on paper.
Everything, everything, literally ourschedule was on a calendar and Jill would
sit there with a pencil and an eraser.
And it was insane.
And now it's on a tv, you know, andit's easily moved around, right?
Anytime needed.
We can see how far out we're scheduled.
(25:22):
We, I mean, it's, it just blows me away.
Now everybody in the companycan see the schedule.
It's not just me, it's not just Carrie.
Everybody has access to it.
They can see where they're goingwhat's going on for the next year.
If they wanna sit there and skipthrough the entire year, it's, it's up.
love it.
So you guys have been with me for along time and I don't care what software
you use, just freaking use it, right?
(25:45):
You've heard that over and overand over, and you guys just.
Hey, this is what we haveinto the peer groups.
This is, we just need to use it
Right.
of the day and just use it.
It's taught you a lot about job costing,scheduling, who owns the schedule.
We talk about all these things.
Absolutely.
Financials are available,budget versus actual hour.
(26:05):
Hours are available, and.
There's templates you,you know, your costs.
Like, oh, skid steer insert.
Wow.
How Versus Carrie would estimate, Idon't know, it's probably like 200 bucks
Yeah,
there was a lot of work.
yeah, so it's that estimating was,I say software was a game changer.
I say the second one was a gameChangers, probably your finances,
(26:27):
Yeah.
just talked about.
Fractional, CFO,
an awareness of what numbers are probablyover the course of multiple years.
Like what are numbers?
I think we say all the time, know your
Yeah, yeah.
but I don't think that's clear enough.
No, I don't either.
You.
like yeah, you know, nosafety while you're driving.
Well, well, like what is safetywhile you're driving like you need.
(26:49):
So what else is there?
Is there anything else thatyou've implemented, whether it
be like in the operations, inthe field team or, or whatever.
Well two, with the software, with Elementespecially, and again, any software is,
is, is better than none, but it, it isa scorecard for your team so they can
see how they're doing every single day.
So on the Element Crew app, they can seewhat they are versus, you know, their
(27:12):
actual hours versus budgeted hours.
Before we had nothing like that,so they were just going to work
every day to go to work every day.
Day.
So now they have a scoreboard in front of'em to see if they're winning or losing.
That has been an absolutelyhuge game changer.
Another one is sharing your financials.
And so that was something we would'venever even thought of, ever thought of.
(27:33):
And now, I mean, we have a board thatshows every single month what our top line
is compared to last year, the same month.
And then right next to that, we haveour gross profit margin, our net
profit for each individual month.
So it's up there so everybody,again can see that scoreboard of
how the company's doing as a whole.
I think that's extremely important becausepeople just come to work to come to work.
Otherwise, if they don't, you know,if, if you put that in front of 'em,
(27:57):
they have a reason to want to come towork and a reason to want to do better.
I. And so we talk about that a lot.
And we just had a financial meetinga couple weeks ago with, with our
leadership team, and it's literallygoing through a p and l and letting them
understand what a p and L looks likeand what every single line on that p
and l means, so everybody's aware of it.
So it's not just Jill and I it'sstarting to teach the team so they can.
(28:20):
this is fascinating topic.
I get this a lot.
And Carrie jump in.
Or Jill, there was a concernto share your numbers.
I know it was there andeveryone has the concern.
So what did it overcome?
What did, what did you have to decide?
Say we have to do this.
One, two, what do you share andwhat does that provide the team?
(28:45):
And you now versus back then it wasnothing there a lot of companies
are not doing this or reluctantand very fair questions, right?
Like I don't wanna, but most timesthe reason why they didn't wanna
share is 'cause it's not accurate.
I think so.
Yeah.
You're afraid to put it out there whenyou don't understand it yourselves.
(29:07):
So I think us having a fractionalCFO, so we, we understand what we're
getting ready to share with everyone.
Breaking it down and, and showing themyeah, we may charge this much per man
hour for you to be on the job, but we'rebreaking that down and explaining what
overhead is showing them, you know.
(29:28):
What's left at the end of the year whatthat net profit truly is, and, and helping
them to understand what the company isleft with and, and that we need that
so that we can, can continue to grow.
But really putting it up there becauseit's not just, this is what Carrie
and Jill made at the end of the year.
This is what CNS did,this is what the team did.
(29:48):
And when you start looking at yourbusiness that way, it's not your
business, it's the team's business.
And that mind shift it, it.
Help us get over that hurdle ofwanting to keep things private.
It's why at the end of the day, thosepeople, they should know what's going
on at the company that they're trustingis healthy enough for them to stay at.
You're asking these people to committo building a career with you.
(30:12):
You should be willing to show them yourfinancial data and, and show them are,
are you financially healthy or not?
Absolutely.
There's so many good reasons.
This and, and what if wetook the same reasons?
That's not in the professional career,but in the personal level, right.
Understanding that at another level makesa lot of sense in your personal life.
(30:33):
And you know, and then if you go backto the business side, I wanna know
how all of us entire team can cometogether as a unit when times are
tough to bring us out of the hole or.
Say it rains for three straight weeksand we gotta get one week where we
really have to bring our a game for oneweek and work extra hours in order to
(30:57):
try to hit something for that month.
if they had that financial awareness,they would understand it versus, oh,
what's, why are we gotta do this?
There's a reason behindall of it to understand.
So I, I'm a huge fan.
We talk about it all the time.
It's very scary at the end of the day.
But It's scarier when you don't do it.
Yeah.
(31:18):
Open up the book and
Mm-hmm.
what I would recommendis get with a bookkeeper,
Yes.
understand it, get it organized.
Get your chart of accounts figuredout, make sure you're getting
things in the right bucket.
You guys had to learn alot of that stuff too.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
with a professional bookkeeperor a fractional CFO or
someone in that industry.
(31:39):
Preferably service based industry.
Mentor you two to get the better numbersand, and portray it out to the team.
So, and I think, I think another thingwith it too is, and, and Jill and I
have talked about is that everybodythinks you're the secret millionaire.
So I think it's very important to showthem where all that money's going.
Again, based off of, hey,what we're charging per hour.
(32:02):
They think, oh my gosh, you, youguys are making so much money.
Well, we, you need toliterally break it down so they
understand where that's going.
You know we do the penny thingwhere you take a hundred pennies and
then you say, Hey, we're gonna do50% gross profit margin this year.
You take 50 away.
And so now you have 50 cents left over.
Well, now we're gonna take your overheadout and what do you have left over?
You know, we did 8% last year, soyou literally take 'em all away.
(32:24):
But eight pennies outta every dollarCNS makes you have eight pennies.
And so for them to understand that andsee that in front of them, we do that.
Our spring kickoff last two years or threeyears, and it's, it's been a game changer.
They actually understand that andthey, they, they don't think you're
that secret millionaire anymore.
Yeah.
They realize, Hey, we're in this togetherand now they're bought in and they
(32:44):
wanna find ways to be more efficientand cut that waste so that they have
more pennies left on their table nextspring, because we explain pennies.
Help with growth and pennieshelp with growth for them.
So we can give them raises orwe can send them to another
training, whatever it may be.
We can't do that if we don't have profit.
Yeah.
Love it.
Love it.
So the top three things are bookkeeping.
(33:07):
Fractional CFO was agame changer of a hire.
It's not your strong point.
Now you've got that strong
Mm-hmm.
Relationship software, software, software.
Pick one.
I don't care.
Use
Yeah.
to the best of its ability.
They will take you somewhere muchmore better off than you can take
it by your own with spreadsheets andmanual clocks on the wall and guess it
(33:31):
guesstimating and all that sort of stuff.
Yep.
that, that clock on the wall was ahint for somebody that's out there.
You, you know who they
Yes, I know who he is.
Yeah.
And so hopefully they'relistening right now.
And, and the last but notleast is open book Financial
management was a game changer.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
are, those are massive
(33:52):
undertakings that you would'venever, you know, sort of.
And then not only that, your peerskind of helped guide you with
feedback and questions and otherpeers outside of your peer group
Mm-hmm.
And it's going to industry events,talking more and getting the.
The comfort level to shareall that data and implement it
back at your, at your place.
(34:13):
Another, another thing that I feellike was a big game changer too,
is for many years Jill and I dideverything putting managers in place.
Like we didn't have, I mean, we hadsome basic people here or there,
but now we literally have a manager.
For every division we run.
And then we have, you know, accountmanagers, we, you know, we have these
(34:33):
different people to manage these thingsso we don't have to worry about them.
They then report to us and we haveour one-on-one meetings, which is
another game changer, one-on-onemeetings you should do every week.
And those have been really a huge helpin our growth and our continued growth.
So.
real quick, division managers,can you line those out for
me so we can understand?
right now we have a maintenance manager,landscape manager, operations manager,
(34:58):
project manager, account manager.
So we have those managers in place.
and then they have scoreboards orscorecards or KP something to measure.
It's probably not perfect.
I get it.
You're working on it, but the abilitythat you're working on it so they
know if they're winning and losing.
You talk about this all thetime, so you're working on that.
(35:19):
Yep.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Balance scorecards.
So
that's, that's where we're going.
Okay.
What's business like today?
You're off to the races, you're goingto the beach, sign up, you're moving on.
What?
perfectly.
Right.
Business today.
Business is busy.
Busy is busy.
(35:40):
Mid spring, so we're busy.
Our H two B guys arrived a week ago.
Yep.
So that keeps me verybusy while they're here.
Getting them settled in springtime,we're just trying to dial
in the crews for the season.
We like to get those figuredout, dialed in so that we're
not switching people around.
Yep.
So we're working through that.
(36:00):
Who works best together?
We're still doing a littlebit of hiring actually.
So that takes up quite a bit of my time.
But our, our backlog, our backlogsare still out quite a bit, and so
we're trying to work on that hiringpiece to try to strength those
backlogs down for our clients.
So, so that's a thing.
But yeah, we as a companytoday, we're just busy.
(36:21):
No longer am I out in the field.
Doing anything.
You know, I got in this because I loveworking outside, love working my hands.
I sit behind a computer mostdays now and that's what I do.
And you as an owner, as you grow,you definitely evolve and change
and you have to evolve and change.
But yeah, my daily duties are completelydifferent than what they were five.
(36:43):
I, I, I remember you guysthree or four years ago, and
I could see it on your face that youguys were just buried in the business.
I mean, whether it was taking phone calls,
Mm-hmm.
I gotta knock out thisestimate real quick.
While you're traveling.
I'll never forget this, and, and, andthe entire group is the same way, right?
(37:06):
At three years ago now you have aconfidence level to leave for three
days because have a managementteam that's running things.
They know mostly what they need to do.
You're still working on it youhave the ability to go work.
On the business somewhere else, comeback, bring back some nuggets, make
(37:28):
a few tweaks and keep going, andthat you've elevated those people up.
Whereas three years ago, Carrie,there was no chance you would ever
take, ever, ever, ever do that.
And I want, I want the listenersto understand that this Carrie is
like 95% of the audience out there.
whether you are an owner ora manager, they're out there.
(37:52):
And it's hard.
It's hard as hell to run this businessbecause these landscapers are the most
passionate people in this industry by far.
We love what we do.
We just get buried in the minutia ofthe business and don't where to go.
So take carrie's advice and justget with somebody, a mentor, get
a peer group, figure out whatyou need to go get and go get it.
(38:16):
I don't know.
Call Carrie, find 'em up.
They will be glad tohelp you at some point.
And, and I can tell you, you know,when we were scared to go for that, you
know, second three days in New Orleans.
Now if you look at how much Jill andI travel to industry events, we, I
mean, we're always gone somewhere,especially, I mean, this time, well,
up until this point of year, I don'tknow how many places we've already
(38:37):
been this year, but it's incredible.
You have to continue developingyourself as a business owner.
Mm-hmm.
And developing your people 'cause.
Your business is only gonna goas far as the people in it, and
if you don't continue to developit, you're gonna stop growing.
So.
Amazing.
Yeah.
You two have grown so much in the lastfew years and it's always been nice to see
(38:58):
you guys develop into, to great people.
What, what is, what is any last minuteadvice for anyone that's out there,
whether you're a, a a hundred thousanddollars company or a hundred million
dollar company because you havesomething, is it something that is
there a quote or is this something thatyou just live and die by or it just.
(39:18):
what, what are you gonnaleave with our audience?
Do what you say you're gonna do
Ugh.
one of our core values.
That's it.
Can, it's, it's good for everything, everyaspect of your business, whether it's
something you told a customer, a coworkeryourself, your spouse you have to do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(39:38):
And you can do more thanyou ever thought you could.
Don't let limiting beliefs hold you back.
That yeah.
And, and I am, I'm the caveat tothat because there's that little
birdie over here on your shoulderthat I talked about at some point.
Or the devil you could say thatsays, I'm gonna go do this.
(39:59):
And then what happens afteryou say, I'm gonna go do this?
They start talking that you can't do it.
don't have time.
It doesn't mean it.
You're not smart enough.
No one else does it this way, right?
All those things start to just
talk and you gotta go, this iswhat's right for my business.
This is what's right formy team and my family.
Mm-hmm.
I gotta just do it.
(40:19):
I think we just talk a lot about thingsyou guys learned that over the early
on in peer groups or even travel.
I don't really care, just out everywhere.
It's like we're gonna,
Absolutely.
and then the gonna never happens.
You can't wait till winter timeto do everything you have to.
my gosh.
Hundred percent agree.
We used to think, oh, we'llwait till winter time and do it.
(40:40):
You can't.
It's gotta be continuousimprovement every day.
It's gotta be, we are just as busy inthe winter as we are in June, July.
It doesn't matter now.
Our year is, it's the sameevery single month now, so,
yeah.
Just do it and don't overthink
right.
And one more last minute advice.
Take care of your team.
Take care of your people.
Yeah.
I mean, it's all about your people.
(41:01):
Yeah.
At the end of the day, grow yourcompany to give them more opportunity.
Grow them to give them a career.
Again, that that is my why.
Our why is to take care ofour people and see them grow.
So
When you invest in the team,everything else just works.
it does.
They will take care of your clients.
They will take care of whateverneeds to be taken care of
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
(41:22):
Amazing, amazing show.
Lots of good feedback and takeaways.
You guys, Carrie started outjust pushing a mower, just left
school and said, I'm outta here.
Pretty much.
if it wasn't for some industry helpand, you know, some peer groups and
some people and some organizations andsome software connections along the
(41:45):
way they would not be here right now.
And they, you know, who knows whereKerry would be, you know, kind of
suffering at the end of the day,just kind of doing his thing.
And so.
Kudos to you both for, you know, bringingyour A game at all times and lots of fun.
Yes.
lots of fun and lots of latenights celebrations along the way.
(42:08):
But thank you for beinga guest on the show.
It's been awesome.
You too.
Best of luck and hope you guys crush it.
All right.
Thank
All right.
you.
Ready to take the next step?
Download our free Profitability Scorecardto quickly create your own baseline
financial assessment and uncover thefastest ways to improve your business.
Just go to McFarlinStanford.com/scorecardto get yours today To learn more about
(42:32):
McFarlin Stanford our best in classpeer groups and other services go to
our website at McFarlinStanford.comAnd don't forget to follow us on
LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
See you next time on the Roots of Success.
Welcome to Roots of Success Podcast,and I'm your host Tommy Cole.
I have two amazing guestson the show today, actually.
They're not really guests andthey're kind of my clients, but most
importantly, they're my good friends.
From a few years ago, they joined peergroups and now we have become close and
(00:22):
we're friends and we kind of make funof all of each other all the times, and.
It's been great, but I've got CarrieKlein and Jill Klein from CNS landscape
in the great state of Ohio, which Ihave been accustomed to in the last six,
seven years to visit your awesome state.
(00:45):
Welcome to the podcast, Jill and Kerry.
How are you?
Good.
Good.
How are you?
How are you?
We're good.
We're good.
The don't be nervous.
It's okay.
Here we go.
I know it's a little bit, this iswhere we have all of our accountability
calls and financial updates.
Look at this beautifulbackdrop of the railroad ties.
(01:06):
I love it.
It's got the C for Klein andeverything is, is peachy.
So.
Well, let's just jump right in.
Carrie and Jill tell us how c and slandscape got started back in the day.
I'm sure it's like a mowing dream.
Turn to extraordinaire, right.
A little bit.
So when I was 15 years old, Istarted in the landscape industry.
(01:28):
I actually started working for a companythat did hardscape installations and
it was just me, him, and one other guy.
It was a very small company.
I did that all through highschool and I, I just loved working
outside, loved working with myhands, loved building things.
It was always justsomething I really enjoyed.
When I graduated high school, I wentoff to college 'cause that's what
I thought you were supposed to do.
(01:49):
What we.
That's what they pushed for.
And so I, I went off to college andthat I just realized it wasn't for me.
I stayed for about a year.
I, I went to NorthCarolina and I came back.
And when I got back, it was kind of oneof those, I was like, what's next in life?
You know, I, I truly enjoyed doinglandscaping and working with my hands.
(02:09):
And so CNS started in March of 2001.
And it was one of those where passingout flyers and, and paper boxes
and driving around doing whateverI could to drum up work, driving
all over the place to do work.
And I started off with justmowing and it was funny.
I, I, I rarely ever mowed before then,I was mostly a hardscape background,
(02:32):
so started off with mowing 'causethat's the easiest place to start.
Yeah.
You know, low barrier toentry, they always say.
And We continue to build on that.
I got a few guys over the years and wejust focused on doing great work and
trying to keep good guys around me.
You know, when I first started it wasa bunch of friends, which was nice and
easy to keep around you, but then asyour friends get older, they disappear.
(02:56):
And so people that think thatthey can grow a business with
friends, it's, it's very difficult.
So for many, many years I just putmy head down and worked really hard.
And we kind of just.
Grew a little bit every year, butnever got to be a huge company.
In 2015 Jill came aboard.
(03:17):
Mm-hmm.
She had a background inYeah, she had a background.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She had a background in,in, in the medical field.
And then she, she was a branch managerfor a building supply company, and I was
still answering the phones at the time.
I was doing kind of everythingand I, I really needed help.
I was drowning.
(03:38):
So that's when she came aboard.
Yep.
So,
So Carrie, so 14 years,
mm-hmm.
you're pushing the mower.
Are you doing any hardscape projects or.
so, so in 2015 we were doing mowingenhancements, landscape install work.
We were doing hardscape work.
We were doing all of it.
(03:58):
I don't know how many guys we had at thetime but we, we were, it was very hard.
It was always hiring new people.
I do still have actually someof those people on board today.
We've got some guys 18 years, 15 years.
You know, guys that cameor left and came back.
We actually had a guy that worked for usearly on that just came back last year
(04:19):
and he took a, I don't know, a 20 yearlike hiatus, but he came back last year.
So it's awesome.
But yeah, so we, we did all, allof those and, and again, we just, I
didn't know how to run a business.
I was just doing work.
I thought that's whatI was supposed to do.
Working really hard sometimes, early on,especially, is working seven days a week.
(04:40):
Yeah.
and I missed my oldest son.
That was a challenge that we'll get to.
But I missed missed a lot of his growingup when he was really young because.
And so you thought care.
You thought, this is the dream, right?
This is, this is, I'm justgonna work seven days a week.
I'm gonna mow grass and plantshrubs and do hardscapes.
'cause this is it.
(05:02):
I'm living the dream.
I'm a business owner, like, I'mwilling to bet it wasn't like.
It wasn't like, you know, Jill'slike, what's going on here?
Like, why can't we have time?
Right.
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, I, I, I know my mother-in-law,we would have picnics at her house
for holidays and I couldn't go.
(05:22):
And she's like, where can't you go?
But it's just one of those I thoughtI needed to be working and I thought
I was doing good because I had enoughwork that I could work in those times.
But it, it, it was not right.
I, I was not doing the right thing.
And obviously it took me a verylong time, more than usual for most
people to realize that I think so.
that makes sense.
(05:42):
So then comes Amazing.
Jill, why did she sign up for this?
Oh, I've been watching itfor years from the sideline.
Like he said I kind of had my career in,in healthcare management for a long time.
I. Wanted out of healthcare.
So I, I took a position actually managinga building supply location, a branch
(06:09):
that gave me a different exposure.
I think that it comes in veryuseful in this industry actually.
I think that I took a lot from thatjob and implement it in this landscape.
How to deal with contractors on last
Yeah,
Right.
yeah.
everything.
Yeah.
No.
So so yeah, I have a lot of experience inthat and it comes in useful, but just came
(06:34):
in and, and really tried to organize whatwas going on on the administration, you
know, administrative side of the companyget some, you know, better processes,
kind of defined and laid out with evenrunning hiring ads and, and how do we
respond to those and interviewing people.
(06:55):
It's been a slow process,but we're getting there.
Over the past 10 years that I'vebeen here a lot has changed.
So for the.
The better?
Yeah.
All for the better.
So
talk.
Man, 10 years.
So Jill, you've beenthere 10 and talk about
(07:21):
this.
This is a tricky situation.
'cause you know, it's notlike you can afford, right?
Carrie, else coming on boardthat needs salary, et cetera.
Like is it something of like justa need that, or Jill just goes, I
gotta come in and just help out andjust make things right because of.
Carrie's gone.
(07:42):
Carrie is, stress carrie'soverworked, and Jill just jumped
right in and said, let's go.
Like, I just want to paint thatpicture for a lot of business owners
out there that are starting young orjust been in it for a very long time.
You know, at one point you almost,Carrie just needs to let us guard
down and go, I just need help.
Yeah, so a big part of that was.
(08:03):
We reached that point where heneeded somebody to step in and answer
the phones and run kind of thatday-to-day, like office type work.
We were not running out of afacility at the time where there
was any kind of office space.
And so the thought of hiring a strangeressentially and trusting them to either
(08:23):
work from home or actually come work inour home, I was not on board with at all.
And so that's kind of what pushed usto that decision of, you know, why
am I managing a branch for a buildingsupply company when I could be doing
this for our family and for our company.
(08:45):
So it really made senseto just take the chance.
It was either gonna be the worstthing or the best thing that
we ever did for our marriage.
I think we had a lot of conversations of.
If at any point, either one of us doesnot like the way that this is going,
we have to agree that we can sit, likesay to the other one, this is done.
You gotta go back towork for somebody else.
(09:06):
So luckily we haven't hadthat conversation yet.
Yeah.
No, you guys are
But, but I think it also in asense too, gave her a little
flexibility with our kids.
It did.
We had two young boys and so it gaveher a little bit more flexibility to
do things instead of being tied downto a branch, she was able to work
(09:27):
from home and I was the mom who wasmissing all of the school parties and
You know, and.
Upset about it that Iwasn't able to be there.
I just didn't have that flexibilitywhen I was working for somebody else.
So that was probably big.
The biggest draw and perk for mewas that I was gonna be able to you
know, pop over to the school in themiddle of the day so that I could be
(09:49):
a part of those things for our kids.
Like he said, with our oldest son,unfortunately, you know, we both we
were working a lot and we missed out ona lot of things like that, but luckily
10 years ago, I kind of was able to.
Start showing up more and, andbeing at those things for him.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Talk about.
(10:12):
Kerry's probably the field guy.
I, I just relate to Kerry going,he's in the field all day.
He's knocking stuff out and opera.
Very operational driven, which is mostbusiness owners these days, right?
So here comes Jill.
Do, do, do, do.
I'm gonna work from home and justby like, oh my gosh we gotta get a
(10:35):
lot of things figured out as far as.
And you're highly involved in thefinances and the HR and the admin,
you're taking over this, somethingthat's, that sort of hasn't been given
love and rightfully so because he isout there selling and producing work.
So talk about some of the things thatyou've overcome to sort of strengthen
(10:55):
it, strengthen the team, strengthenthe company that you just said.
We gotta get a hold of these things.
And I, and, and reason why I'masking this is a lot of owners out
there that are figuring that out.
It could be.
single owner and it could have 10employees at this point, and they're
at a breaking point on what to do.
Absolutely.
you help carry in this situation?
(11:16):
Just getting organized.
Like I said we started just differentprocesses with even hiring people.
?Turnover is, is huge in this industry.
You can't hire anybody thatwalks through the door.
You've gotta hire for yourculture, which first you have
to define what that culture is.
So doing that.
Deciding who was a good fit for ourcompany, having to let some people go
(11:39):
that we're not a good fit that we'rejust dragging everybody else down.
Running those hiring ads, stayingon top of calling people you know,
within 24 hours, getting them in forinterviews and building that team up
was one of the most important thingsthat we started giving time to.
Unfortunately when you're anowner operator and you're out in
the field, you don't have timefor those thing, those things.
(12:02):
As far as even the finances of thebusiness, having set days of the month
that you're pushing out all of yourreoccurring maintenance, billing, staying
on top of your landscape and hardscapebilling so that it's done you've gotta
stay on top, top of your cash flow.
Because when you realize that you havea cash flow problem, it's too late.
You've gotta get ahead of that,stay on top of your invoicing.
(12:25):
So those were probably the most importantthings, just making sure that clients
our customer service is really important.
We were a word of mouth companyup until two, three years ago.
We had never paid a marketingcompany to do anything for us.
And so our reputationis extremely important.
It's what's grown the company prettymuch to the size that it is right now.
(12:46):
Was just making sure that wewere staying on top of the
client phone calls and emails.
Getting back to people.
I can't tell you how many clients hireus because they'll tell me you're the
first person to answer your phone.
Or the first person toreturn my voicemail or email.
They're shocked when it's a live personthat they can talk to that same day.
You know, even scheduling meetings andshowing up to the meetings, running a,
(13:09):
running a calendar getting that organized.
And I tell people, we'renot the cable company.
I'm not gonna give you a four hour window.
I'm gonna give you a specifictime, and that's what time,
you know, an account manager isgoing to be there for your meeting.
People are busy and so beingrespectful of their time has has,
(13:29):
Yeah.
been a great impact on us.
Carrie, anything to add there?
That's just a, you know, anyadvice for people like that that
says, man, I'm the op sales guy.
I need someone to help.
It's almost like you'vegotta hire someone that's
I was.
opposite of you.
You know, if you don't have awife that can come in and do
it, you need to hire somebody.
And
Yeah.
your buddy thinks, oh, I can'tafford that person, but you can't
(13:50):
afford not to have that person.
Mm-hmm.
And it truly is, I mean, throughthe years, the equipment, oh, I
don't think I can afford that.
As soon as we got it, weneed two or three of 'em now.
You know, that person wedidn't think we could afford.
As soon as we got 'em, we're like, man,why didn't we do that five years ago?
10 years ago?
And so it's always, you know,just realizing that you need
those people to help you.
You can't do it all by yourself.
(14:11):
You think you can, but nobody can.
Yeah,
You can't do it.
Good.
At least.
Yeah, love it.
It's almost like you two.
Take it for multiple businessowners or spouses, doesn't matter.
But you guys have a trust, and I'veseen that over the years where good at
the ops side, the equipment producingthe work, you know, managing the crews,
(14:34):
but he also relies on Jill Go, man, ifwe had this machine it would work best.
Can we have this machine?
What do you think?
Right.
Because Carrie's initial reaction is justgo get the machine and I don't really
care, and we'll figure it out later.
I know this is a sensitivesubject that's at one point,
but now it really works, Carrie.
(14:56):
Right.
Explain the dynamic of havingthat trust with each other.
I mean, at the end of the day witha husband and wife, you have to
have that trust because it, I mean,your family is counting on it.
I hate to say it.
And so, the, the hard thing was, yeah,going back to the equipment, like sh
we, neither of us really knew for along time, can we afford another truck?
Can we afford another skidsteer, whatever it may be.
(15:18):
But we looked at financials or Jilllooked at financials like, yeah, we
got a lot of money, we can afford it.
So that went on for a long time beforewe truly got things straightened
out and hired a functional CFO.
So.
There you go.
There you go.
Someone even smarter than both of you twoto watch the finances was a huge hire.
that's something we both believein, is trying to find those people
(15:40):
smarter than you to help you out.
Right?
'cause you can't do it yourself.
You can't do what you don't know.
Yeah.
So, and if you hire a goodfractional CFO, they'll find a
way to pay for themselves easily.
Yes.
Yeah.
Was that a hard decision, Jill?
First?
At first it was, I met with him.
The, the guy that we ultimately didhire, I met with him and two others.
(16:04):
And I think it took me almosta year before I actually.
Signed up with, with the one that Ithought would be the best fit for us.
And that's we've been with him forover a year, a year, just over a
year now, and couldn't be happier.
I I'm very glad that we made thatdecision and that we have Jim to help
us make those hard decisions now.
(16:25):
And you also, as a business owner, youdon't have a lot of people telling you no.
And and you need that,I don't always listen.
You know, but he'll, hecan give me his opinion.
There are times he says no, and sometimesI just have to listen to my gut.
But there are times that I take hisadvice and I'm like, he's probably right.
(16:48):
He knows more about this than I do.
You need somebody playing devil'sadvocate because you do what you
think isn't necessarily right.
Just 'cause you want it really, really baddoesn't mean it's gonna work, so right.
and at, at this point you hireda mentor that is quite, and
frankly like than you guys.
Like no different than what I would do.
The same is like we need someone athigh level, Jill's probably great at
(17:10):
like basic bookkeeping and puttingthings in the system, billing.
Invoices, collecting money, like justgeneric things that we all kind of do.
But I need someone at that next levelhow the business is functioning.
And it's okay to reach out to peoplethat are much smarter than you.
'cause they're on your team.
(17:31):
They can mentor you and show you,and it's been a great relationship
for, for this past year.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, she, Jill doesn'thave an accounting degree.
You know, we don't have businessdegrees or business backgrounds
or any kind of finance background.
So again, you need to find thatperson that does to help you.
So.
take It makes a lot of sense.
I know that you guys have been,you know, wrangling with that CFO
(17:52):
fractional for a while and onceyou committed, you saw a really big
difference and know it's something that
Well, it's,
know, you, you'll never let it go.
It may be a different, a differentsystem or person as you get larger
or small, what just depends.
But you'll always havesomeone at that level
it's another one you think youcan't afford, but now we realize
we can't afford not to have it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
(18:12):
Yeah.
Okay, so then somethinghappened three, seven years ago.
You're like, I don't even knowhow this even happened, but you
decide to join a peer group.
was the, what was the reason to join?
That's gotta be kind of scary.
I, I, I would think now that I'vebeen in this program for a while,
but what the, who made the call?
(18:35):
I'll be honest, four years ago we kindof hit a plateau and and Jill and I had
a heart to heart is one of those whereit was like, we have to do something.
Mm-hmm.
The business was kind of stagnant.
I think we were stuck for a while, right?
Over a million dollars, butwe were just like stuck.
We didn't know what to do.
We were both working our butts off andwe honestly didn't know where to go.
So we sat down.
First thing we did was we actuallydecided to hire a business consultant.
(18:58):
We hired a business consultant, broughtthat consultant in, and, we did some real,
we, we learned some things from them andwe, we just didn't, it didn't last long.
We didn't click with them,so it didn't last long.
This was in the fall, Ithink, four years ago.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, we learned somestuff from there and we, and we
were like, okay, well what's next?
(19:19):
It came February and, and I was readingsome article and I saw this conference,
the Grow conference, and we had never beenbefore, so it was in Nashville, Tennessee.
And I said something to Jill about it,and I, and neither of us ever been to
Nashville, so we're like, Hey, let's go.
Why not?
Case scenario.
We're gonna to Nashville.
In Nashville.
And so we went to this GROW conferencethe whole time we're at this conference,
(19:43):
we're seeing like something aboutACEs and we don't know what it is.
They got better seating,they got this, they got that.
We don't know what it's,
and so there was a, like a cocktail.
Hour where you could learn more about it.
And that's actuallywhere we met you, Tommy.
Yep.
But there was a cocktail hour andwhat we learned in that hour it seemed
(20:03):
something that we, we wanted to try.
But the issue was in two weeks we hadto be in New Orleans at Discovery.
Well, we're in Nashvilleright now, and it was already.
Yeah.
we already taken ourselves outtawork when her and I were both heavy
in the day to day and we had alreadymissed work to go to this conference.
And now we're gonna go in twoweeks and miss work again.
To go to discovery in New Orleans.
(20:26):
Jill said to me, she said, ifwe do this, you have to promise
you're gonna implement things.
And so for years and years wewent to industry conferences and
seminars and I just, we learned alot, but never implemented things.
And so it was just like, yeah,me and her were getting, I guess,
smarter to a certain extent, but wewere never doing anything with it.
(20:49):
So I promised I would we finishedup a, a great grow in Nashville
though, and OSI was amazing and.
And then we moved on and two weeks laterwe were in New Orleans in a haunted hotel.
And
Yep.
we don't find that out until the lastday after we slept there for two days.
But
(21:09):
We were in a haunted hotel andwe were kind of blown away with.
I guess what this was all about, what peergroups, ace, peer groups were all about.
It just, we didn't know thatbusiness side, like I said before.
Yeah.
We don't come from a business background.
I, I was a landscaper, you know,I, I like to build things, I
like to work out in the field.
I like to work hard.
(21:30):
Didn't know a lot of these things.
And so it really opened our eyesto what, what's out there and
the opportunities out there.
When we went to New Orleans, wesat in a room with with our peer
group that ended up forming.
You know, you guys formed that groupand, and left all of us together.
We'd never had an experienceof sitting with other business
owners and talking openly.
(21:53):
And that honestly.
same things that you're going through.
They're going
Yes.
Yes.
And so it just, it it, it changedour entire perspective on on growing
the business and finding thesepeople that we felt like we could
help them and they could help us.
And you know, we were still withthem and have made some lifelong
(22:16):
friends from that group, so.
Great.
an awesome group.
It literally got formed out.
Yeah.
discovery and it continued on.
It's still continuing on to this day.
It's been pretty fascinating to see.
Shout out to.
Yeah.
Ace Destiny, that's part of your group.
That It's a group, but I, I actuallyhelp facilitate that a little bit.
(22:37):
So it's an amazing group, a grazinggroup of people that have been sharing
a ton of information and growing.
So tell me about.
The last few years.
What are some things that you have learnedor you've, we talked about this a week
or two ago while we were out on site.
(22:57):
You guys have accomplished a lot of
Mm-hmm.
Like, let's tip your hat real quick andsay, yeah, we've got these few things
developed and we never thought we could.
Software for me.
Software.
About that.
You, we've had a conversation about this.
Probably from day one
yeah.
(23:18):
Yeah.
So.
Talk about your experience withsoftware before and what it is like now.
Yeah.
So care, years and years ago, I don'tCarrie went to some seminar at Ohio
Cat and he comes home and says, Isigned up for this software called LMN.
You're like, oh no.
Can you help me?
I like learn this and figure this out.
And at the time I was stillworking full-time, you know,
(23:40):
somewhere else, and I'm like, what?
So we never did anything with it.
I was, I was able to get whatI should charge per hour.
Yeah, roughly.
It was, it was still when MikeLaski was teaching the class.
So it was very, very early on.
Yeah, it was it was, I thought itwas the coolest thing and I wanted
to do it, but again, you get tieddown into the day to day and there's
(24:00):
no way you have time to do it.
So fast forward three years ago we joinedthis peer group and, you know, they're
like, you've gotta implement software.
You have to just do it.
So we did signed up with LMN, goteverything implemented up and running.
It continues to improve the way thatwe run our business daily, every day.
(24:20):
You know, I thought I couldn't get ridof the stupid time clock, you know?
Oh yeah, the manual time
Manual time clock and these time cards.
And I, I couldn't wrap my headaround like, well, how else do
you, you know, pay these people?
It's in LMN, like what inthe world was wrong with me?
I look back and I'm like, what was wrongwith me that I could not figure out you
(24:40):
know, how to implement this and do it.
But weve done it.
We continue to do it, continue to,to implement all the things that
LMN and, and software have to offer.
We've got a couple other software programsthat we're running, it has just night and
day difference in estimating absolutely.
Just even payroll filesbeing sent off to accounting.
(25:00):
I mean, it just makes life so much easier.
I don't know how we did it before.
I say before we were literally on paper.
Everything, everything, literally ourschedule was on a calendar and Jill would
sit there with a pencil and an eraser.
And it was insane.
And now it's on a tv, you know, andit's easily moved around, right?
Anytime needed.
We can see how far out we're scheduled.
(25:22):
We, I mean, it's, it just blows me away.
Now everybody in the companycan see the schedule.
It's not just me, it's not just Carrie.
Everybody has access to it.
They can see where they're goingwhat's going on for the next year.
If they wanna sit there and skipthrough the entire year, it's, it's up.
love it.
So you guys have been with me for along time and I don't care what software
you use, just freaking use it, right?
(25:45):
You've heard that over and overand over, and you guys just.
Hey, this is what we haveinto the peer groups.
This is, we just need to use it
Right.
of the day and just use it.
It's taught you a lot about job costing,scheduling, who owns the schedule.
We talk about all these things.
Absolutely.
Financials are available,budget versus actual hour.
(26:05):
Hours are available, and.
There's templates you,you know, your costs.
Like, oh, skid steer insert.
Wow.
How Versus Carrie would estimate, Idon't know, it's probably like 200 bucks
Yeah,
there was a lot of work.
yeah, so it's that estimating was,I say software was a game changer.
I say the second one was a gameChangers, probably your finances,
(26:27):
Yeah.
just talked about.
Fractional, CFO,
an awareness of what numbers are probablyover the course of multiple years.
Like what are numbers?
I think we say all the time, know your
Yeah, yeah.
but I don't think that's clear enough.
No, I don't either.
You.
like yeah, you know, nosafety while you're driving.
Well, well, like what is safetywhile you're driving like you need.
(26:49):
So what else is there?
Is there anything else thatyou've implemented, whether it
be like in the operations, inthe field team or, or whatever.
Well two, with the software, with Elementespecially, and again, any software is,
is, is better than none, but it, it isa scorecard for your team so they can
see how they're doing every single day.
So on the Element Crew app, they can seewhat they are versus, you know, their
(27:12):
actual hours versus budgeted hours.
Before we had nothing like that,so they were just going to work
every day to go to work every day.
Day.
So now they have a scoreboard in front of'em to see if they're winning or losing.
That has been an absolutelyhuge game changer.
Another one is sharing your financials.
And so that was something we would'venever even thought of, ever thought of.
(27:33):
And now, I mean, we have a board thatshows every single month what our top line
is compared to last year, the same month.
And then right next to that, we haveour gross profit margin, our net
profit for each individual month.
So it's up there so everybody,again can see that scoreboard of
how the company's doing as a whole.
I think that's extremely important becausepeople just come to work to come to work.
Otherwise, if they don't, you know,if, if you put that in front of 'em,
(27:57):
they have a reason to want to come towork and a reason to want to do better.
I. And so we talk about that a lot.
And we just had a financial meetinga couple weeks ago with, with our
leadership team, and it's literallygoing through a p and l and letting them
understand what a p and L looks likeand what every single line on that p
and l means, so everybody's aware of it.
So it's not just Jill and I it'sstarting to teach the team so they can.
(28:20):
this is fascinating topic.
I get this a lot.
And Carrie jump in.
Or Jill, there was a concernto share your numbers.
I know it was there andeveryone has the concern.
So what did it overcome?
What did, what did you have to decide?
Say we have to do this.
One, two, what do you share andwhat does that provide the team?
(28:45):
And you now versus back then it wasnothing there a lot of companies
are not doing this or reluctantand very fair questions, right?
Like I don't wanna, but most timesthe reason why they didn't wanna
share is 'cause it's not accurate.
I think so.
Yeah.
You're afraid to put it out there whenyou don't understand it yourselves.
(29:07):
So I think us having a fractionalCFO, so we, we understand what we're
getting ready to share with everyone.
Breaking it down and, and showing themyeah, we may charge this much per man
hour for you to be on the job, but we'rebreaking that down and explaining what
overhead is showing them, you know.
(29:28):
What's left at the end of the year whatthat net profit truly is, and, and helping
them to understand what the company isleft with and, and that we need that
so that we can, can continue to grow.
But really putting it up there becauseit's not just, this is what Carrie
and Jill made at the end of the year.
This is what CNS did,this is what the team did.
(29:48):
And when you start looking at yourbusiness that way, it's not your
business, it's the team's business.
And that mind shift it, it.
Help us get over that hurdle ofwanting to keep things private.
It's why at the end of the day, thosepeople, they should know what's going
on at the company that they're trustingis healthy enough for them to stay at.
You're asking these people to committo building a career with you.
(30:12):
You should be willing to show them yourfinancial data and, and show them are,
are you financially healthy or not?
Absolutely.
There's so many good reasons.
This and, and what if wetook the same reasons?
That's not in the professional career,but in the personal level, right.
Understanding that at another level makesa lot of sense in your personal life.
(30:33):
And you know, and then if you go backto the business side, I wanna know
how all of us entire team can cometogether as a unit when times are
tough to bring us out of the hole or.
Say it rains for three straight weeksand we gotta get one week where we
really have to bring our a game for oneweek and work extra hours in order to
(30:57):
try to hit something for that month.
if they had that financial awareness,they would understand it versus, oh,
what's, why are we gotta do this?
There's a reason behindall of it to understand.
So I, I'm a huge fan.
We talk about it all the time.
It's very scary at the end of the day.
But It's scarier when you don't do it.
Yeah.
(31:18):
Open up the book and
Mm-hmm.
what I would recommendis get with a bookkeeper,
Yes.
understand it, get it organized.
Get your chart of accounts figuredout, make sure you're getting
things in the right bucket.
You guys had to learn alot of that stuff too.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
with a professional bookkeeperor a fractional CFO or
someone in that industry.
(31:39):
Preferably service based industry.
Mentor you two to get the better numbersand, and portray it out to the team.
So, and I think, I think another thingwith it too is, and, and Jill and I
have talked about is that everybodythinks you're the secret millionaire.
So I think it's very important to showthem where all that money's going.
Again, based off of, hey,what we're charging per hour.
(32:02):
They think, oh my gosh, you, youguys are making so much money.
Well, we, you need toliterally break it down so they
understand where that's going.
You know we do the penny thingwhere you take a hundred pennies and
then you say, Hey, we're gonna do50% gross profit margin this year.
You take 50 away.
And so now you have 50 cents left over.
Well, now we're gonna take your overheadout and what do you have left over?
You know, we did 8% last year, soyou literally take 'em all away.
(32:24):
But eight pennies outta every dollarCNS makes you have eight pennies.
And so for them to understand that andsee that in front of them, we do that.
Our spring kickoff last two years or threeyears, and it's, it's been a game changer.
They actually understand that andthey, they, they don't think you're
that secret millionaire anymore.
Yeah.
They realize, Hey, we're in this togetherand now they're bought in and they
(32:44):
wanna find ways to be more efficientand cut that waste so that they have
more pennies left on their table nextspring, because we explain pennies.
Help with growth and pennieshelp with growth for them.
So we can give them raises orwe can send them to another
training, whatever it may be.
We can't do that if we don't have profit.
Yeah.
Love it.
Love it.
So the top three things are bookkeeping.
(33:07):
Fractional CFO was agame changer of a hire.
It's not your strong point.
Now you've got that strong
Mm-hmm.
Relationship software, software, software.
Pick one.
I don't care.
Use
Yeah.
to the best of its ability.
They will take you somewhere muchmore better off than you can take
it by your own with spreadsheets andmanual clocks on the wall and guess it
(33:31):
guesstimating and all that sort of stuff.
Yep.
that, that clock on the wall was ahint for somebody that's out there.
You, you know who they
Yes, I know who he is.
Yeah.
And so hopefully they'relistening right now.
And, and the last but notleast is open book Financial
management was a game changer.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
are, those are massive
(33:52):
undertakings that you would'venever, you know, sort of.
And then not only that, your peerskind of helped guide you with
feedback and questions and otherpeers outside of your peer group
Mm-hmm.
And it's going to industry events,talking more and getting the.
The comfort level to shareall that data and implement it
back at your, at your place.
(34:13):
Another, another thing that I feellike was a big game changer too,
is for many years Jill and I dideverything putting managers in place.
Like we didn't have, I mean, we hadsome basic people here or there,
but now we literally have a manager.
For every division we run.
And then we have, you know, accountmanagers, we, you know, we have these
(34:33):
different people to manage these thingsso we don't have to worry about them.
They then report to us and we haveour one-on-one meetings, which is
another game changer, one-on-onemeetings you should do every week.
And those have been really a huge helpin our growth and our continued growth.
So.
real quick, division managers,can you line those out for
me so we can understand?
right now we have a maintenance manager,landscape manager, operations manager,
(34:58):
project manager, account manager.
So we have those managers in place.
and then they have scoreboards orscorecards or KP something to measure.
It's probably not perfect.
I get it.
You're working on it, but the abilitythat you're working on it so they
know if they're winning and losing.
You talk about this all thetime, so you're working on that.
(35:19):
Yep.
Yep.
Absolutely.
Balance scorecards.
So
that's, that's where we're going.
Okay.
What's business like today?
You're off to the races, you're goingto the beach, sign up, you're moving on.
What?
perfectly.
Right.
Business today.
Business is busy.
Busy is busy.
(35:40):
Mid spring, so we're busy.
Our H two B guys arrived a week ago.
Yep.
So that keeps me verybusy while they're here.
Getting them settled in springtime,we're just trying to dial
in the crews for the season.
We like to get those figuredout, dialed in so that we're
not switching people around.
Yep.
So we're working through that.
(36:00):
Who works best together?
We're still doing a littlebit of hiring actually.
So that takes up quite a bit of my time.
But our, our backlog, our backlogsare still out quite a bit, and so
we're trying to work on that hiringpiece to try to strength those
backlogs down for our clients.
So, so that's a thing.
But yeah, we as a companytoday, we're just busy.
(36:21):
No longer am I out in the field.
Doing anything.
You know, I got in this because I loveworking outside, love working my hands.
I sit behind a computer mostdays now and that's what I do.
And you as an owner, as you grow,you definitely evolve and change
and you have to evolve and change.
But yeah, my daily duties are completelydifferent than what they were five.
(36:43):
I, I, I remember you guysthree or four years ago, and
I could see it on your face that youguys were just buried in the business.
I mean, whether it was taking phone calls,
Mm-hmm.
I gotta knock out thisestimate real quick.
While you're traveling.
I'll never forget this, and, and, andthe entire group is the same way, right?
(37:06):
At three years ago now you have aconfidence level to leave for three
days because have a managementteam that's running things.
They know mostly what they need to do.
You're still working on it youhave the ability to go work.
On the business somewhere else, comeback, bring back some nuggets, make
(37:28):
a few tweaks and keep going, andthat you've elevated those people up.
Whereas three years ago, Carrie,there was no chance you would ever
take, ever, ever, ever do that.
And I want, I want the listenersto understand that this Carrie is
like 95% of the audience out there.
whether you are an owner ora manager, they're out there.
(37:52):
And it's hard.
It's hard as hell to run this businessbecause these landscapers are the most
passionate people in this industry by far.
We love what we do.
We just get buried in the minutia ofthe business and don't where to go.
So take carrie's advice and justget with somebody, a mentor, get
a peer group, figure out whatyou need to go get and go get it.
(38:16):
I don't know.
Call Carrie, find 'em up.
They will be glad tohelp you at some point.
And, and I can tell you, you know,when we were scared to go for that, you
know, second three days in New Orleans.
Now if you look at how much Jill andI travel to industry events, we, I
mean, we're always gone somewhere,especially, I mean, this time, well,
up until this point of year, I don'tknow how many places we've already
(38:37):
been this year, but it's incredible.
You have to continue developingyourself as a business owner.
Mm-hmm.
And developing your people 'cause.
Your business is only gonna goas far as the people in it, and
if you don't continue to developit, you're gonna stop growing.
So.
Amazing.
Yeah.
You two have grown so much in the lastfew years and it's always been nice to see
(38:58):
you guys develop into, to great people.
What, what is, what is any last minuteadvice for anyone that's out there,
whether you're a, a a hundred thousanddollars company or a hundred million
dollar company because you havesomething, is it something that is
there a quote or is this something thatyou just live and die by or it just.
(39:18):
what, what are you gonnaleave with our audience?
Do what you say you're gonna do
Ugh.
one of our core values.
That's it.
Can, it's, it's good for everything, everyaspect of your business, whether it's
something you told a customer, a coworkeryourself, your spouse you have to do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(39:38):
And you can do more thanyou ever thought you could.
Don't let limiting beliefs hold you back.
That yeah.
And, and I am, I'm the caveat tothat because there's that little
birdie over here on your shoulderthat I talked about at some point.
Or the devil you could say thatsays, I'm gonna go do this.
(39:59):
And then what happens afteryou say, I'm gonna go do this?
They start talking that you can't do it.
don't have time.
It doesn't mean it.
You're not smart enough.
No one else does it this way, right?
All those things start to just
talk and you gotta go, this iswhat's right for my business.
This is what's right formy team and my family.
Mm-hmm.
I gotta just do it.
(40:19):
I think we just talk a lot about thingsyou guys learned that over the early
on in peer groups or even travel.
I don't really care, just out everywhere.
It's like we're gonna,
Absolutely.
and then the gonna never happens.
You can't wait till winter timeto do everything you have to.
my gosh.
Hundred percent agree.
We used to think, oh, we'llwait till winter time and do it.
(40:40):
You can't.
It's gotta be continuousimprovement every day.
It's gotta be, we are just as busy inthe winter as we are in June, July.
It doesn't matter now.
Our year is, it's the sameevery single month now, so,
yeah.
Just do it and don't overthink
right.
And one more last minute advice.
Take care of your team.
Take care of your people.
Yeah.
I mean, it's all about your people.
(41:01):
Yeah.
At the end of the day, grow yourcompany to give them more opportunity.
Grow them to give them a career.
Again, that that is my why.
Our why is to take care ofour people and see them grow.
So
When you invest in the team,everything else just works.
it does.
They will take care of your clients.
They will take care of whateverneeds to be taken care of
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
(41:22):
Amazing, amazing show.
Lots of good feedback and takeaways.
You guys, Carrie started outjust pushing a mower, just left
school and said, I'm outta here.
Pretty much.
if it wasn't for some industry helpand, you know, some peer groups and
some people and some organizations andsome software connections along the
(41:45):
way they would not be here right now.
And they, you know, who knows whereKerry would be, you know, kind of
suffering at the end of the day,just kind of doing his thing.
And so.
Kudos to you both for, you know, bringingyour A game at all times and lots of fun.
Yes.
lots of fun and lots of latenights celebrations along the way.
(42:08):
But thank you for beinga guest on the show.
It's been awesome.
You too.
Best of luck and hope you guys crush it.
All right.
Thank
All right.
you.
Ready to take the next step?
Download our free Profitability Scorecardto quickly create your own baseline
financial assessment and uncover thefastest ways to improve your business.
Just go to McFarlinStanford.com/scorecardto get yours today To learn more about
(42:32):
McFarlin Stanford our best in classpeer groups and other services go to
our website at McFarlinStanford.comAnd don't forget to follow us on
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See you next time on the Roots of Success.
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